Quantcast

Should the D.C. Handgun Ban Have Been Overturned?

DeepDiveAdmin's picture

Washington, D.C. is the nation’s political capital, but tragically it’s also known as America’s murder capital. In an effort to curb homicides, the city banned its citizens from owning handguns starting in 1975. More than 30 years later, the U.S. Supreme Court recently overturned the law, saying "the absolute prohibition of handguns" was unconstitutional. The decision sparked a legal chain reaction as similar lawsuits were filed in Chicago and San Francisco. Was this the right verdict for the safety of D.C. citizens and the nation?

Comments

Defender's picture

The militia IS "The People"

Since residents of DC are people, they are the militia spoken of in the Second Amendment. "The right of the people." "Well-regulated," in the 18th Century, meant well-equipped and trained, functional, competent. NOT "tightly controlled."
This has been dissected so many times, and the Founders' views and intent quoted and explained, there's really no excuse for anyone with Internet access to not get it.
Likewise, this business of the Supreme Court "incorporating" the Second Amendment to the states after 231 years. Finally, the long-dead Founders can rest in peace, knowing that their vision has been rubber-stamped by five of nine unelected legal bureaucrats.
No.
I don't understand why people choose to err in favor of less freedom for everyone else AND THEMSELVES.
By the way, the DC handgun ban remains in part due to the vote of Re. Eric Cantor, the chief sponsor of the USA PATRIOT touch your 5-year-old's privates and secretly search your home without a warrant Act.

SaveTheGuns-dotcom's picture

Yes the ban should have been overturned.

Of course the 1975 prohibition should have been overturned. It is the job of the United States Supreme Court to cut down unconstitutional law and comment upon it. The ban was overturned in June of 2008 by the United States Supreme Court in D.C. v Heller.

The Second Amendment was partially restored to citizens of Washington D.C. to the incessant whining of anti-gun groups. Anti-gun groups cried and carried on about how dismantling the thirty two year old handgun ban would result in rivers of blood pouring down the gutters of our nation's capitol.

So..... it has been one full year and two partial years since the Washington D.C. handgun ban came down. What has happened?

2008 saw 186 deaths in Washington D.C. 2009 saw 143 deaths in Washington D.C.. So far in 2010, at this writing (May 5, 2010) there have been just twenty nine (29) murders in Washington D.C.. This is a rate that you would have to go back into the 1950's to match.

So yes, the eradication of the ban has led, for whatever reasons, to MUCH fewer murders. 1991 during the Clinton Administration, Washington D.C. saw 482 murders. A far cry from the post-ban murders...

rayven's picture

Right to bear arms

The purpose of the second amendment is to allow every person to defend themselves and the state from threats - both foreign and domestic. Banning handguns keeps the weapons in the hands of government only, and if you consider Germany circa 1939, citizens were unable to effectively oppose their government which led to millions being killed in the "ovens". There was a gun ban enacted by England near the beginning of the American Revolution to keep weapons away from those who would oppose English rule. Without citizens' access to guns , there would be no independent United States.

On a personal level, criminals are less likely to attack someone who may be armed. They may be stupid, on drugs , etc., but not many of them want to be shot and killed. A generally armed society makes criminals think twice before attacking. There are countless stories where guns, in the hands of law -abiding citizens, saved many lives. It is very rare that someone who legally owns guns commits a crime with one.

Blaskraken's picture

I love the graph at the beginning of this string!

So does anyone else think the graph at the beginning of this string is the perfect example of why liberals are always getting things wrong . First and foremost the graph represents that there are 10-11 gun related deaths per 100,000 people in the United States. My response is..SO? That comes out to .0001 percent. Plus, the graph doesn't tell you whether those deaths are crime related, accident related, lawful self defense , etc. So my response is HEY, all things considered we are doing pretty well! As for the other part of the graph that indicated that 35% of American households have guns in them, my response is HEY, why isn't the number higher? Gun ownership is obviously not linked to the gun related deaths number. In a country with over 300 million people and 350,000 households, according to the U.S. Census, the number of deaths per year, if the chart is correct, is 3,000. Assuming that the 35% is correct, that means that 122,500 homes have guns. Which means that even if we assume that each one of those deaths is accidental, the percentage of households affected by improper gun safety is .024%....LESS THAN 1/4 of 1 PERCENT. So, if guns are such a national epidemic, how does one explain the obvious dichotomy between the math just illustrated and the liberal rhetoric associated with gun ownership? The bottom line is that the freedoms protected by the Second Amendment are worth the risk of a .0001 population loss due to gun related deaths. It may sound rather inhumane, but when you are making national policy for 300 million people I think there is such a thing as acceptable risk. As for me and my house , SigArms will continue to serve as my front line of defense.

under the law's picture

under the law

Again in Washington, DC the city overstepped its boundaries
the Second Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms.
It only takes a few seconds for person to break into your home
there are known cases that people were murdered while waiting
for the police .normally in any city it takes
minimum of 20 to 30 minutes for the authorities to arrive
now knowing that why is government fooling with your rights
to protect yourself
maybe the government may have a hidden agenda
maybe this is why they arm themselves to tee and
citizen is not allowed to have protection of any kind
makes a person wonder

Edge-of-Reason's picture

Gun Rights Advocates Can't Read?

The US Constitution is so frequently called upon for support for free gun ownership and yet it appears those who use it to defend their arguments seem to have forgotten to read it. The protection afforded by the Constitution is not for personal unsupervised ownership of guns , but the right to formation and governance of militia (National Guard, Army, ...). Specifically:

"To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

The logical extreme of this so-called right? Personal nuclear firearms ? Mandatory gun ownership? School children required to wear holsters as part of their school uniforms? Some of this is already happening ... Because of guns, America is the least safe country in the world.

If nothing else, handguns should be eliminated. I challenge anyone to explain why handguns (concealed guns) are needed - except for law enforcement or for personal use to defend against other handguns. If handguns were banned, then only criminals would have them for a while, making it easy to pick out the ones the police should shoot. Home owners could still have a personal Uzi at home. Still, far fewer people would die given the majority of deaths are passion-related - killed by someone you know and/or love.

I have lived in 2 countries where guns were banned and can attest to the safety and calm it affords the citizens not to have to worry about being held up at gunpoint, shot by a road-rager, killed by an angry spouse. Americans deserve a hand-gun free country.

..................................................

Only by exploring the logical extremes of an argument can we find a reasoned perspective.

LagerHead's picture

Who can't read?

Let's examine the 2nd Amendment, shall we?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Do you notice that the 2nd Amendment makes a clear distinction between a well regulated Militia and the people? It does not say "the right of the Militia to bear arms shall not be infringed," does it? That's because the framers meant this right for the people, not the well regulated Militia, against which they had just fought to gain the freedoms enumerated in our Constitution. Look a couple of posts above yours, at Glen Spicer's, and you will see Jefferson's take on this. The intent was for the people to have the means to protect themselves from the tyranny of the well regulated Militia, which is necessary to secure the state (country).

"The logical extreme of this so-called right? Personal nuclear firearms ?"

Way to take what started out as a decent argument and turn it into the typical Brady style B.S. So I guess the logical extent of free speech is being able to yell "fire" in a crowded theater too? Or making threats on the lives of citizens? No, every right comes with responsibilities.

"Because of guns , America is the least safe country in the world."

The stupidity of that statement defies belief. I'll tell you what: you go to Sudan, the Darfur region, and tell those people that they are more safe than I am here in America. Or Zimbabwe. China. The list goes on. In the words of the principal in the movie "Billy Madison"; "what you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

"I challenge anyone to explain why handguns (concealed guns) are needed"

Ever called 911? If so, did the police immediately materialize in front of you creating an impenetrable wall of Kevlar, instantly protecting you from harm and thwarting all attacks? Or did you fall in the 32% category of 6-10 minutes? I don't know if you have ever been beaten, stabbed, robbed, shot, or raped for 6-10 minutes, but if you talk to someone who has, you will hear them tell you it feels like 6-10 eternities.

But do away with the response time and you are still left with one indisputable fact: the U.S. Supreme Court has already ruled that police have no obligation to protect you from harm. Period. None. So even if they do show up on time - a statistical improbability to say the least - they don't have to do a damn thing to help you. So who exactly does that leave to protect you? Don't hurt yourself, I'll tell you. It's you. You are the only person on the planet who has the responsibility for your protection.

So, recognizing that, do you want to meet force with passiveness? Or force with force? Or my personal favorite, force with superior force. Can you guess which gives you the most likely chance of survival? Good, I knew you could.

"I have lived in 2 countries where guns were banned and can attest to the safety and calm"

Congratulations. But we're not talking about those countries are we? We are not talking about theoretical situations in foreign countries. We are talking about the reality of THIS country. And the reality of the Constitution of the United States of America, which in its 2nd Amendment guarantees an individual right to bear arms.

As for those other countries, you obviously entered and then successfully left, so apparently the door swings both ways. Don't let ours hit you in the ass on the way out. Just be sure to lock it and leave your key on the dining room table. Can you do that for us?

Edge-of-Reason's picture

Grammar 101 - Well-regulated militia = people

Grammar 101 - Well-regulated militia = peopleLagerheads,

Check your gun and your grammar at the door ...

You and all other guns -rights advocates quote this sentence without knowing (or ignoring it to serve your purposes) the rules of grammar. The right of the people is inextricably linked to the subject and is in fact one and the same. The people individually are not necessary to the security of a free State - but the militia is. This right to bear arms is given to militia - not individuals.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

As for your other replies:

- If you ignore logical extremes you ignore logic. Driving at high speed on a road that leads to a cliff is not a wise thing to do - especially when you are getting close to the edge.

- Police protection. Think about it ... the police are answering your 911 call in most cases because of a fear related to violence - usually involving guns or the fear of dying from being shot.

- Murder capital of the world? More people have die from legal handgun use in the US than from crime in Darfur, Sudan, Zimbabwe and China combined.

- I know you feel that Paducah is the center of the global stage, but until you travel a bit outside the US, you are a frog in a well for whom the sky is a small circle.

..................................................

Only by exploring the logical extremes of an argument can we find a reasoned perspective.

Edge-of-Reason's picture

Grammar 101 - Well-regulated militia = people

Lagerheads,

Check your gun and your grammar at the door ...

You and all other guns -rights advocates quote this sentence without knowing (or ignoring to serve your purposes) the rules of grammar. The right of the people is inextricably linked to the subject and is in fact one and the same. The people individually are not necessary to the security of a free State - but the militia is. This right to bear arms is given to militia - not individuals.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

As for your other replies:

- If you ignore logical extremes you ignore logic. Driving at high speed on a road that leads to the a cliff is not a wise thing to do - especially when you are getting close to the edge.

- Police protection. Think about it ... the police are answering your 911 call in most cases because of a fear related to violence - usually involving guns or the fear of dying from being shot.

- Murder capital of the world? More people have dies from legal handgun use in the US than from crime in Darfur, Sudan, Zimbabwe and China combined.

- I know you feel that Paducah is the center of the global stage, but until you travel a bit outside the US, you are a frog in a well for whom the sky is a small circle.

..................................................

Only by exploring the logical extremes of an argument can we find a reasoned perspective.

JuanCudz's picture

Oh Lord, the tired old Militia argument

You ask sir 'What is the Militia?' The Militia ARE the people!

Collins English Dictionary Third reprint 1999
1) A body of citizen (as opposed to professional) soldiers.
2) An organisation containing men enlisted for service in emergency only.

Penguin English Dictionary 1965
military force auxiliary to the regular army esp one of civilians recruited from each country.

Samuel Johnson 1755
"The part of a community trained to martial excercise"

What I can't figure out is how several Supreme Court Justices are unable to grasp this fundamental principle.

JuanCudz's picture

A list of chronological definitions

Before you try to point out how 2) would equate to a 'national guard' I wanted to show that if it quacked like a duck in 1755, and walked like a duck in 1965, you can call it a water living migratory avian in 2010, but it is still a duck.
Or have I exposed a lexoconic conspiricy against the Second Ammendment?

SolarSanitizer's picture

In D.C v. Heller

The court found that the people, individually, have their right to keep and bear arms protected by the 2nd. This is settled law .

Furthermore, in the constitution , every other instance of the term "the people" means individuals. It defies logic to opine that this instance is somehow different.

The Democratic National Committee approves of this website.

Edge-of-Reason's picture

Settled law .. blacks and women shouldn't vote

Settled laws get unsettled. This one will too in good time. An amendment to restate more clearly the intention of our founding fathers in this regard (the safety of Americans from the tyranny of bad government , which legal hand guns is) will be passed before I am pushing up daisies.

..................................................

Only by exploring the logical extremes of an argument can we find a reasoned perspective.

Edge-of-Reason's picture

D.C. vs. Heller Will Fall

Like other mistakes the Supreme Minds have made in the past where common sense points the other way, this decision will fall. The Founding Fathers didn't envision the Glock with 18 rapid fire shots being used to deprive Americans of their right to a safe society . More of us have died from handguns than the British ever killed.

..................................................

Only by exploring the logical extremes of an argument can we find a reasoned perspective.

SolarSanitizer's picture

A couple points need to be made here.

First of all, Glock does not make rapid-fire model that is legal for civilians to own in this country. The Glock model 18 (The only fully automatic model) is a machine gun. See: http://www.cga.ct.gov/2009/rpt/2009-R-0020.htm

Secondly, the D.C. ban also covered all iterations of rifles and shotguns-- Even one round capacity models, unless they were disassembled. This means that the right to keep and bear arms was infringed. Remember that single-round capacity was well within the framework of the 2nd amendment and was very popular in the time of the framers.

I suggest you re-read the opinion passed down in the Heller court and point out its error(s) which would cause it to be overturned by some future court:

"On June 26, 2008, by a 5 to 4 decision, the Supreme Court upheld the federal appeals court ruling, striking down the D.C. gun law . Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the majority, stated, "In sum, we hold that the District's ban on handgun possession in the home violates the Second Amendment, as does its prohibition against rendering any lawful firearm in the home operable for the purpose of immediate self-defense ... We affirm the judgment of the Court of Appeals."[33] This ruling upholds the first federal appeals court ruling ever to void a law on Second Amendment grounds.[34]
The Court based its reasoning on the grounds:
that the operative clause of the Second Amendment—"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"—is controlling and refers to a pre-existing right of individuals to possess and carry personal weapons for self-defense and intrinsically for defense against tyranny, based on the bare meaning of the words, the usage of "the people" elsewhere in the Constitution, and historical materials on the clause's original public meaning;
that the prefatory clause, which announces a purpose of a "well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State", comports with, but does not detract from, the meaning of the operative clause and refers to a well-trained citizen militia, which "comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense", as being necessary to the security of a free polity;
that historical materials support this interpretation, including "analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions" at the time, the drafting history of the Second Amendment, and interpretation of the Second Amendment "by scholars, courts, and legislators" through the late nineteenth century;
that none of the Supreme Court's precedents forecloses the Court's interpretation, specifically United States v. Cruikshank (1875), Presser v. Illinois (1886), nor United States v. Miller (1939).
However, "[l]ike most rights, the Second Amendment is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose." The Court's opinion, although refraining from an exhaustive analysis of the full scope of the right, "should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."
Therefore, the District of Columbia's handgun ban is unconstitutional, as it "amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of 'arms' that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense". Similarly, the requirement that any firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock is unconstitutional, as it "makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense".
The opinion of the court, delivered by Justice Scalia, was joined by Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr. and by Justices Anthony M. Kennedy, Clarence Thomas and Samuel A. Alito Jr."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v . _Heller

The Democratic National Committee approves of this website.

Edge-of-Reason's picture

Rectal Cranial Inversion

Get your head out of your a**ss Solar. This is not about how many bullets a Glock hold. A dozen innocent American's were killed while you wrote your treatise for the NRA. Handguns do more harm than good and will eventually be banned.

..................................................

Only by exploring the logical extremes of an argument can we find a reasoned perspective.

SolarSanitizer's picture

Thank you for your opinion.

Now run along.

The Democratic National Committee approves of this website.

LagerHead's picture

Grammar has been checked. Now a check for you.

Since JohnH has beat me to the punch on correcting your grammar (Same exact link I was going to use, by the way) I'll hit some of the other high points.

"- If you ignore logical extremes you ignore logic. Driving at high speed on a road that leads to a cliff is not a wise thing to do - especially when you are getting close to the edge."

There is a huge difference between ignoring extremes and just plain making shit up. Nobody is advocating personal tactical nukes. It's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand it is purely a diversionary scare tactic. Saying that allowing handguns will lead to people having tactical nukes is like saying that letting people drive cars will lead to them driving M1 Abrams Tanks down the street. It's a completely asinine conclusion; has no basis in reality or even sanity; and it only shows that you are willing to introduce illogical conclusions in a poor attempt to support a weak argument.

"- Police protection. Think about it ... the police are answering your 911 call in most cases because of a fear related to violence - usually involving guns or the fear of dying from being shot.

Really? Seriously? You state that like it's some kind of secret that you are kind enough to share with us lesser mortals. And here we all were thinking that the police were there so we could call and ask directions to the nearest donut shop. And offenders use any sort of weapon in only 8.9% of crimes reported to 911, so your statement that they "usually" involve guns doesn't exactly hold water either.

"- Murder capital of the world?"

Ok, just ignore the genocide in Darfur. Pretend the government of China isn't complicit in the deaths of millions of people it considered a threat. Just forget about those.

Colombia
South Africa
Jamaica
Venezuela
Russia
Mexico
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Belarus
Ukraine
Papua New Guinea
Kyrgyzstan
Thailand
Moldova
Zimbabwe
Seychelles
Zambia
Costa Rica
Poland
Georgia
Uruguay
Bulgaria

"What are those?" you ask. Those are the 23 countries that have a higher per capita murder rate than the U.S. You'll notice that there is more than one that completely bans handguns, or has de facto bans. And India is only two below the U.S., so don't spend too much time feeling all high and mighty.

"- I know you feel that Paducah is the center of the global stage, but until you travel a bit outside the US, you are a frog in a well for whom the sky is a small circle."

I'm not exactly sure what Paducah has to do with anything since I don't live there. But let me school you a bit. I have lived outside the United States for over 9 years of my life, on 3 different continents. So go ahead and presume to be better than me. Believe it or not, it doesn't really bother me. Arrogance almost always is coupled with stupidity and almost always ends up making you look like a jackass; so I welcome yours.

Edge-of-Reason's picture

USA in Top 25 Most Murderous ... And you're proud of it?

Lagerhead

We're not just talking about murder here but gun-related crime , injuries and fear because of guns owned by millions of Americans , many with bad intentions or lacking the judgement or self-control to know how to keep themselves, their families or others safe . For your consideration:

- America is # 8 in crime (most criminals carry a gun - thanks to the NRA and people like you)
- America is # 23 in murder with guns out of 192 countries (top 12%)
- America is the #1 in the manufacture of handguns (we're all accessories to murder)

In this forum, we're not talking about the right of the family to protect themselves, but the value of concealed weapons to society and the intelligence of banning them.

I am still waiting for you or someone else to explain why anyone would need a concealed handgun except to use it against someone else with a concealed handgun (the nuclear warhead proliferation argument). Care to take a stab at it?

..................................................

Only by exploring the logical extremes of an argument can we find a reasoned perspective.

ggirlemc's picture

Obvious Answer

Edge-of-Reason, the fact that you can imagine no plausible situation where someone would need a concealed weapon sure says something about your intelligence, or lack of it.

In fact, your grip on reality seems a little loose.

How about the Port Arthur Massacre in Australia, in which a man who bought guns off the black market proceeded to mass murder 35 people. He killed 12 people, injured 10, in a cafe, and then went on a killing spree and murdered the rest. The only 2 police in the area took over 40 minutes to respond.

If one, just one person in that cafe or in the area outside had had a concealed gun on them and had been able to kill or injure the shooter, a lot more people would be alive today.

So think about it, one good reason you'd need a gun would be to protect yourself from criminals who have guns, which almost always are unregistered so a gun ban wouldn't deter them.

Or what about a woman who is threatened with sexual assault ? She wouldn't need to fire it, believe me, one look at a pistol and her attacker would be running. Don't you care at all about the prevention of sexual assault?

And the USA being the least safe country in the world? That's laughable and reveals your ignorance. Try living in some parts of Africa where the police and government actually partake in genocide - with guns. Try living in Mexico where the police are either non-existent, or corrupt.

LagerHead's picture

I'll take a stab at it. Part 2

"I am still waiting for you or someone else to explain why anyone would need a concealed handgun except to use it against someone else with a concealed handgun"

I'll take a stab, even recognizing that all the facts, figures, statistics, anecdotes, and logic in the world will have absolutely no effect on your thinking. But fortunately the facts and figures are on my side, so it's not really all that much effort.

First, let's take a hypothetical situation. Imagine you are a petite female - say 5'5" and 120lbs. You are walking to your car after work, or in a parking lot at the mall or whatever. Now imagine that you are confronted by a big, scary thug intent on making your money his money. He's 6' tall and weighs in at about 200lbs. Not a monster, but far from a shrimp. What do you think is the one tool that will put these two on equal footing? A knife? Pepper spray? Even a baseball bat or tire iron? None of those would come even close. However, if you are carrying a 9mm Glock loaded with jacketed hollow points, all of a sudden the 6' attacker has been brought down to your level and chances are both you and he will go home in the same condition you left the house .

What about real situations? On April 2 of this year, a lady I know watched in horror as her husband was murdered right in front of her by a man she knew to be stalking her. She was attempting to have the man removed from the premises when he drew a pistol, fought off two men trying to stop him, and shot her husband in the back of the head, killing him instantly. He then emptied his 5 remaining rounds from his revolver into his lifeless body. If she had been permitted to carry a gun in the restaurant where they were, she would have had an opportunity to stop him. She was a legal carry permit holder at the time, and had a gun, but it was locked in her car just outside the restaurant as the law required.

Now I have a question for you. Without digressing into what could be or should be - in other words fully accepting the reality of the country in which we live as painted by you - can you tell me why I shouldn't carry a concealed handgun? People are attacked every day by violent criminals. And I have a family. I therefore consider it my personal responsibility to do everything within my power to ensure their safety. And since there are people that are intent on doing others harm, should I not use every legal means at my disposal to ensure my family is not among them? If I knew had the capability and means to protect my family but refused to do what was necessary and something happened to one of them on my watch, I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror. So can you tell me why I should not do everything in my power to keep them safe ?

I'll leave it at that until next time. I look forward to your response.

LagerHead's picture

I'll take a stab at it. Part 1

"We're not just talking about murder here but gun-related crime , injuries and fear because of guns owned by millions of Americans , many with bad intentions or lacking the judgement or self-control to know how to keep themselves, their families or others safe ."

But many more do. Carry permit holders in the U.S., on average, have more hours per year of firearms training and range time than police officers. And there are over 6 million of them in the U.S. but you hear about maybe 50 per year that commit crimes. And that's a pretty generous estimate.

"- America is # 8 in crime (most criminals carry a gun - thanks to the NRA and people like you)
- America is # 23 in murder with guns out of 192 countries (top 12%)"

I'm going to take these two together, since they're pretty closely related. First, on the #8 statistic: This is only somewhat telling. Many countries either don't report at all, or grossly under-report for obvious reasons. Some also completely leave out crimes by the government committed on their people, again for obvious reasons. But beyond that, there are countries above the U.S. on that list - Denmark for example - with much more stringent gun laws than the U.S. So your insinuation that more guns necessarily means more crime doesn't hold water . In addition, if you look at the example of Kennesaw, GA, which requires all citizens who are legally able to do so to keep a firearm in the home, it holds even less. There hasn't been a homicide there in over 20 years despite all those scary guns.

And can you tell me one single thing that I have done to enable even one criminal to get even one gun? Just one? No, I didn't think so. And what about the NRA? Their goal is to protect the right of every law abiding American citizen to enjoy, if they choose, a right guaranteed by our Constitution. If you don't like that right, you can either build a time machine and take it up with the framers, deal with it, or as I have suggested before, go live in one of those Utopian societies of which you seem to be so fond. Or maybe it ain't so bad here after all.

Over 20% of all the immigrants in the world live in the U.S. That's more than 3 times its nearest competitor. So if it's so damn dangerous and such a crime-ridden hell hole, why is everybody and their brother scrambling to get here? Could it possibly be that it's not nearly the way your are portraying it?

Second, on the "top 25" statistic: that's considerably better than your first statement that ""Because of guns , America is the least safe country in the world." But the same thing holds true about countries that don't report or under-report. All in all, it ain't a half bad place to live. If it was there wouldn't be thousands upon thousands of people flooding illegally across our borders or going through the steps to legally become citizens here every year.

"In this forum, we're not talking about the right of the family to protect themselves[.]"

We're not talking about the right of the family to protect themselves? Then what exactly are we talking about? The question raised on this very topic was whether or not the D.C. handgun ban should have been overturned. And it was overturned recognizing the right of the individual to bear arms to protect themselves.

" but the value of concealed weapons to society and the intelligence of banning them."

Or rather the lack of intelligence in banning them. Guns are used orders of magnitude more times every day in defense of life and property than to take them. The most widely accepted estimates put defensive uses of guns (DUG) at around 768,000 per year. That's over 2,000 times per day. But even if you only accept the most conservative estimate of around 108,000 times per year, that's still over 295 per day, which is many times more than the number of lives taken per day with guns.

JohnH's picture

Complaining About English?

Edge of Reason, If you care to educate yourself...

www.constitution.org/2ll/schol/2amd_grammar.htm

---Murder capital of the world? More people have dies from legal handgun use in the US than from crime in Darfur, Sudan, Zimbabwe and China combined.---

Care to give us a time frame for that? According to the FBI only 14,180 deaths were firearms related murders in 2008. Are you telling us that in Darfur, Zimbabwe and China that fewer than 14,000 people were murdered last year? Care to back that up with some facts?

www.fbi.gov/page2/sept09/crimestats_091409.html

Dylandts's picture

Clearly

Clearly in violation of the Second Amendment. Good thing it was overturned.

GlenSpicer's picture

Making Victims

"Gun-free zones" are some of the most dangerous areas in the country. Does one really think that criminally minded individuals will NOT carry there because of the law ? Such laws only keep law -abiding citizens from carrying there and it makes all of us easy targets and easy victims, but then the government wants us to be. They project their own victim mentality upon us all, denying the truth in favor of their own prejudices and misguided beliefs.

"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
---Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776.

We are to be free, not slaves who have no right to defend themselves, which by the way is the formal and official opinion of the UN, that "no human has a right to self-defense".

Jefferson also said, "Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." Here! Here Mr. Jefferson.

Researcher's picture

An armed society is a very polite society!!

It's not the guns it's the possibility that the home owner will be armed that dissuades criminals.

How many times have you read of a child holding off an attacker with his .22 rifle.

In the old west there was a saying, "God made man, Mr. Colt made them equal."

ebsarver's picture

A favorite quote

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

UltraConservative's picture

By all means, yes

I would say that it should be overturned. All Americans should be able to decide for themselves whether or not they own or carry a hand gun. I myself see no problem in it. I do not agree with high noon justice, but I do believe that every American is afforded the right to keep nd bear arms no matter what city or state they live in.

The Duck's picture

They are Americans too

The rights of all americans should be the same, no matter which part of the country they live in

tuck0411's picture

They survived, but at what cost?

In response to Marloma - a gun wouldn't necessarily have made a difference, but it *could* have made a difference, and an individual has the right to choose whether he/she has the means to defend themselves and make a difference where their personal safety is concerned. Yes, the women survived, but at what cost? Would you choose to be raped for 14 hours straight or would you choose to arm yourself and increase your odds of not being raped? Why do you say "More than likely they would have been less safe"? Every day, ordinary Americans defend themselves from criminal attack through the display or use of a firearm. It's a fact that if a criminal knows his prey is armed, he moves on and looks for easier prey. It's another fact that if you ban guns, only the criminals will have guns. And another thought in closing - when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Wake up, buy a gun and take responsibility for your own personal safety.

JuanCudz's picture

BZZZzzzz

"It's a fact that if a criminal knows his prey is armed, he moves on and looks for easier prey."
This is also proven in the natural world, where many hoverflies have developed colouration and evolved to look like wasps and hornets, but actually have no way of stinging a predator. Hasn't done them any harm.

John556's picture

This says it all too

QUOTE
In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw – responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. – unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of "Wild West" showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting – as a victim, attacker or defender.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55288

Olderman's picture

There is a minor omission....

Although the information presented is limited and can be challenged, I wonder why the nations in Africa are omitted??? Just about every nation there prohibits personal firearms, yet, the murder rate borders on genocide in many areas.

BLZeebub's picture

Not quite...

This chart is out of date and woefully bereft of any meaningful data. It's like saying that more cars lead to more deaths in cars. Well, duh! So it gives an incomplete assessment. It's like an old electrician used to say, "More people die from 110 volt household current because that's what most voltage is!"

Elliott R's picture

true, but...

More guns = more gun deaths. Yes of course, I never said otherwise.
Clearly having guns provides utility in the form of safety. Indeed guns may actually save lives in some instances, although I have never seen any data to indicate this effect is even the same order of magnitude as its dominant effect.

Please look at the relationship between Switzerland and the USA.
There does appear to be a more carefully balanced policy that can lead to all the positives and not so many negatives of gun ownership.

In answer to your specific points:

Out of date; The studies span 5 years, with the newest only 4 years ago. Could you point me to something to shows a dramatic change during this time?

Bereft of data; Well no, it contains exactly the data it indicates. How you choose to interpret the data is the interesting part.

ericalee's picture

interesting part..

The chart in question I assume includes firearm induced suicides. This skews the data in a huge way. In countries where there are stirct gun-control laws, their suicide rates are comparable, just with a different means of getting there. If guns are available, many are going to choose that method, but if they are not available, they will end their lives by other means. So including firearm suicides increases margin of firearm deaths while having no effect on the countries with strict gun-control laws, but with comparable suicide rates.

Also, as for data that indicates that guns save more lives, please take the time to read John Lott Jr.'s book , More Guns Less Crime. He conducted extensive research in all areas and approaches it from economical perspective. He was not pro-gun, nor a gun owner when he began his research, either.

LagerHead's picture

Ask and you shall receive

Please review the following.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1 /gun-facts-5.1-screen.pdf

Look particularly at the "Guns and Crime Prevention" portion where it mentions that there are 2.5 million defensive uses of guns every year in the U.S., far more than gun deaths . I would further encourage you to read the whole thing. So much of the gun-control lobby's position is filled with fluff and outright B.S. that it's actually insulting that we even have to have this discussion.

And remember, very few countries have a drug problem that mirrors that in the U.S. And as a result, the majority of gun crime in this country is gang related. So should I lose my right to own and carry a gun because some other jackass can't get a real job? In the same way I shouldn't be robbed of the privilege (not right) of driving a car because some idiots can't seem to get slobbery drunk and not drive their cars , that argument makes no sense.

F2XL's picture

Not to Mention...

The chart Elliott R cites does nothing to determine how often guns save lives either.