The tide of marriage for same-sex couples has ebbed and flowed over the last decade with no end in sight. Because marriage sits squarely at the intersection of religion, law and society, the discussion around same-sex couples’ inclusion into the institution of marriage has been one of the most complex and hotly contested topics in America.
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It is absolutely ludicrous that in this day and age, while we tout freedom and democracy, we are still ruled by puritanical thought. What business is it to anyone else whether a man marries another man or a woman marries another woman? Does it hurt the economy? Does gay marriage prevent Americans from getting reasonable health insurance? Is gay marriage the reason we are fighting a war? No, No, and No. They deserve the right to marry, just like everyone else. It isn't like the heteros have it right anyway, what with our stellar divorce rate and all. Is god OK with divorcing, but not OK with same-sex marriages? How does that work?
- housemusik July 11, 2008 11:16PM
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Marriage by its very definition cannot be performed on same sex partners.
Webster: the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law
Calling it marriage is changing the very definition of the word. That is like calling someone a homosexual and deciding that the definition means they like the opposite sex.
Now, if you want to call it something different. That is fine. I have no issues with two males or two females being joined to receive the tax and family benefits of married couples. As long as they also have to go through the long, drawn out process of divorce when they decide they don't want to be together anymore.
- Gideon From The Dirty Onion
September 18, 2008 8:07AM
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If we were to follow your viewpoints on the world, racial minorities would still not be afforded the civil rights that they have today (because the Constitution, as ruled in Dred Scott v. Sandford, was written for "white people" as opposed to all people).
Changing a definition in order to insure protection of civil rights is more just than holding onto a definition that wrongfully denies civil rights.
- QuinceyQuick January 25, 2009 2:44PM
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Do you think that the word itself is what holds the sanctity? This is like saying that the word "man" in the Bill of Rights can't apply to women today. The classic definition of a word can't define how it stands in modern day society, this has been proven time and time again.
- tripleayex February 15, 2009 8:48AM
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While what I find moral impedes me from making a solid decision on the legalization of gay marriages, legally i believe they should legalize it. Not because of the couples wanting to unite in matrimony but for the purpose of when it comes to legal documents and such it might be beneficial to them. If they already live together I don’t see why a document of that would be such a problem.
- Michelle M February 18, 2009 10:39PM
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I'm not trying to incite a conflict, but ... don't you have it almost backwards?
The couple is in love, and they want a public expression of that love. The legal benefits are ways for them to be able to practice and reinforce that love. The benefits aren't the ends. The expression and practice of love is.
- QuinceyQuick February 18, 2009 11:49PM
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Our country claims to represent equality. Therefore I think it's a bit hypocritical that we deny the homosexual population the right to marry. Gay marriage would not negatively effect anyone. Those who have a problem with it are simply being inconsiderate. It should be the homosexual couples decision to marry or not to marry, it is not the decision of people around them. I think people just need to mind their own business and keep out of matters that do not involve or effect them.
- Emar March 1, 2009 6:26PM
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There is nothing in the Constitution that protects or establishes "Gay Marriage. For further proof of this, was it legal at the time for two men or two women to marry? No!
I believe that Marriage should remain defined between a man and a woman, like it has for thousands of years.
For those to enjoy the fruits of their Constitutional right, then legalize Civil Unions with the benefits of being a couple, excluding any rights to have children unless they were obtained by natural methods.
- pvtguy April 29, 2009 11:52AM
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There is nothing in the Constitution that protects or establishes "Gay Marriage. For further proof of this, was it legal at the time for two men or two women to marry? No!
I believe that Marriage should remain defined between a man and a woman, like it has for thousands of years.
For those to enjoy the fruits of their Constitutional right, then legalize Civil Unions with the benefits of being a couple, excluding any rights to have children unless they were obtained by natural methods.
Marriage defines the role two people take, Civil Unions also define the role two same genders make.
- pvtguy April 29, 2009 11:55AM
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Back when the constitution was written it was also illegal for interracial couple to marry. Obviously that has changed! We do not look to the past for our values and laws, we look to the present and see if it works for us today. If you want to talk about "traditional marriage " then we should be outlawing divorce and stoning adulterers (even if the woman is raped, she is still and adulterer). Oh and btw Pologyny is about as traditional as marriage gets and we don't do that anymore either. These lies about upholding so-called "traditional marriage" need to end. It is not about that at all. It is about refusing to respect gay couples and their relationship as equal to that of straight people. After all, we are disgusting sinful abominations that also deserve to be stoned to death, right?
I beg you, please do not look to the bible for your morals. It is a book of evils that tells us that stoning is justice and slavery is acceptable. We have long since moved past that ancient book's "morals" and become a better society as a result.
- GermyJ July 8, 2009 12:33PM
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Im just cant be silent!! My story at www.hope7.highpowersites.com
Reminder number 1 why homosexual marriage is criminal in every way!The Duke Official who by the way is homosexual who has been raping his adopted son and recruiting other homosexual men to also rape his 5 yo adopted son, unfortunatly is not the except of the rule for homosexual men. Dont even try to say it isnt there is way to much proof otherwise!AP) WASHINGTON - A Duke University official has been arrested and charged with offering his adopted 5-year-old son for sex.
Frank Lombard, the school's associate director of the Center for Health Policy, was arrested after an Internet sting, according to the FBI's Washington field office and the city's police department.
According to an affidavit by District of Columbia Police Det. Timothy Palchak, an unnamed informant facing charges in his own child sex case led authorities to Lombard.
Authorities said that Lombard tried to persuade a person -who he did not know was a police officer -to travel to North Carolina to have sex with Lombard's child.
The detective's affidavit charges Lombard identified himself online as "perv dad for fun," and says that in an online chat with the detective, Lombard said he had sexually molested his son, whom he adopted as an infant.
The court papers say Lombard also invited the undercover detective to North Carolina to have sex with the young boy, and even suggested which hotel he should use."
In response to the AP report, which most of the newspapers used almost verbatim, Mike Adams of Townhall made the observation that "The Associate Press (AP) did not mention the fact that the five-year old offered up for molestation was black. Bringing that fact to light might be damaging to the political coalition that exists between blacks and gays. Nor did the AP mention that the adopted child is being raised by a homosexual couple. Bringing that fact to light might harm the gay adoption movement."
With this shocking lack of coverage of an even more shocking story, many are asking why this did not make the front pages and top headlines like the Duke lacrosse team scandal did. Thomas Lifson of American Thinker posited that "identity politics ... apparently trumps all sense of outrage."END QUTOE
Read article and think of all the children that will be harmed, if not physical abuse then emotional and psychological damage because of ssm.I know it sounds unfair but Id rather err on the side of protecting children than on the side of homosexuals to destroy marriage as we have known it and destroy the fabric of families that will adveresly affect children. This article is the best, of thousands, reason to not permit same-sex marriges. I pray to God that this disguised attempt to put our children into danger is ended once and for all when we define marriage for all time, for one man and one woman for holy matrimony. If homosexual couples want to marry they have civil unions , period.
- Hope7 June 29, 2009 3:11PM
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There are many ways for paedofiles to get access to their victims...
How many children are adopted by heterosexuals only to be abused? Is this comparable, statistically, to the number of children who are adopted and abused by homosexuals?
You are applying the actions of a small number of paedophiles to the entire population of homosexuals. From such a small number of instances this is not a valid comparison, a statistical relationship must be shown, and so far it has not.
- MrBook June 29, 2009 5:47PM
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You are treated as fairly as anyone else or else their would be law suits. Trust me thats the one aspect of nursing I can tell you with full certainty that hospitals and doctors give all considerations to the patients and their partners, no matter who that partner is, so the story you gave will very emotional is still incorrect.
If I have an affair with a man, and we are deeply in love, share everything in life, go on trips together, buy a home and car together and are together for years and years, so does that make our relationship right in the eyes of society , in the eyes of God and does that give me some kind of say in his life, just because we sleep together and love one another?I would have given my life for this man doesnt that count for anything in a court of law or in a society. Why is our love second rate? If homosexual couples have rights shouldnt adultresses have rights too? After all we put up with soooo much more than wives do and we also get sooooo much more than wives do? Why not give us legal rights too? But we love each other? If I have an affair with a married person do I have rights? I will answer that question myself:
Just because you sleep with someone does not automatically make you the number one person in that persons legal and moral life! You cant force a Holy God to accept what isnt right and you cant force people to accept it either.And I should know because I am that person.
- Hope7 July 11, 2009 6:37AM
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"Trust me thats the one aspect of nursing I can tell you with full certainty that hospitals and doctors give all considerations to the patients and their partners, no matter who that partner is, so the story you gave will very emotional is still incorrect."
Yet you trot out the same tired bits of anecdotal evidence in virtually every argument you make about homosexuals. Since gay couples cannot get married they do not have protection from discrimination IF a hospital decides not to allow visitation...
"Just because you sleep with someone does not automatically make you the number one person in that persons legal and moral life! You cant force a Holy God to accept what isnt right and you cant force people to accept it either.And I should know because I am that person."
What God accepts as right (or not right) is not a sound basis for legal rights. Not everyone believes in the Christian God (many don't believe in any God(s)).
The difference between a couple having an affair and a homosexual couple is that IF both people in the affair want to share legal rights then they can get married (after a divorce from their other marriage (s)). Sates that deny homosexual marriage do not allow homosexual couples that same right...
You don't have to accept a homosexual union... you are free to treat them like they are not married, but as far as the LAW is concerned they should enjoy the same protections as any other couple.
- MrBook July 12, 2009 11:18AM
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Unions give all the same legal rights so the only reason I can see for the homosexual movement to want to invade traditional marriage is to destroy it completely along with what they deem as unuseful repressive socialtal relgious boundaries, which by the way, is the bedrock of a viable, solid and functional and preserved society . Just my thoughts. Also if we open the door to allow homosexual marriages which is clearly against Biblical and Christian beliefs then it would only stand to reason we would allow adultresses to have moral and legal rights to their married partners money , health plans, property, salaries, retirment, and oh yah wills too right? And then if we give this right to adultresses why not just open it to polygamous marriage, and then to incestous marriage, and then to beastiality marriage and then to heck just get rid of marriage all together. Do you see how damaging allowing homosexual marriage will be? Probably not so instead here is a question from an ex-adultress to all churches and ministers who feel they can either by pass God and condone homosexuality and adultry or either feel they can stay neutral on these moral subjects : have a question for all ministers out there that are marrying homosexual couples.
This question comes from me, and ex-adultress, I would like to know when adultresses will get the stamp of approval from your church too, when will this lifestyle be given moral respectablity and legal rights? When will the minister hail the love and devotion of adultresses in this country?I spent years and years caring for a married man, we bought a house together and a car, went on trips etc but I have no rights as an adultress and if you allow homosexual couples to marry, clearly against the word of Gd, I was wondering how long before you drop all the Godly precepts and boundaries set in place by a wise and loving Gd whose desire is to bless traditional marriage, in lieu of your more enlightened convictions, and allow me to have all the self esteem and protections of the church that you afford homosexuals? So as long as your not following Godly principles you wont mind allowing all adultresses to have the same legal and moral marital rights as the married couple correct? And since you dont care much of what God has to say about blessing Holy matrimony you wont mind if my kissin cousins marry us too?You cant possibly be opposed to one big happy family, now what wouldnt be very tolerable of you, so SEE YOU IN CHURCH. I ll be in the adultress section, just to the left of the homosexual section, and I fully expect to have the full cooperation and support of the church in my lifestyle too.
I hope you undertand I am being sarcastic but at the same time I am realistic in the fact that homosexuals have equal rights already in society; they dont want marriage they want to destroy Godly precepts and the parameters set in place for moral edification and protection of the church and Gods people,and some of you ministers are leading us astray. Please consider that all societies need moral guidelines and Godly parameters for a safe and healthy life and country not just just for the family unit, but children and society, as a whole need the church to be the church and a light of higher quality.
PS Only an enemy of God would want to condone homosexuality and adultry. I repented and came back to God in 1998 and have by my own choice, not always easy though, taken a vow of celibacy for the past 11 years, per scripture. God is head of my home and for the past 11 years it has been a happy one!
- Hope7 July 13, 2009 5:34AM
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"Unions give all the same legal rights so the only reason I can see for the homosexual movement to want to invade traditional marriage is to destroy it completely along with what they deem as unuseful repressive socialtal relgious boundaries, which by the way, is the bedrock of a viable, solid and functional and preserved society ."
If they are identical in every way to marriage then the term marriage is just a name on a form... so why not allow homosexuals to use the same form as everyone else?
"Just my thoughts. Also if we open the door to allow homosexual marriages which is clearly against Biblical and Christian beliefs then it would only stand to reason we would allow adultresses to have moral and legal rights to their married partners money , health plans, property, salaries, retirment, and oh yah wills too right?"
First... what is against 'Biblical and Christian beliefs' is not all that relevant as not everyone subscribes to those beliefs. Secondly and adultress can get those rights... she just has to marry the guy (after he divorces his current wife)... unlike homosexuals.
"I spent years and years caring for a married man, we bought a house together and a car, went on trips etc but I have no rights as an adultress and if you allow homosexual couples to marry, clearly against the word of Gd, I was wondering how long before you drop all the Godly precepts and boundaries set in place by a wise and loving Gd whose desire is to bless traditional marriage, in lieu of your more enlightened convictions, and allow me to have all the self esteem and protections of the church that you afford homosexuals?
Again with 'Word of God' and such... it's not relevant to a discussion of legal rights.
You can get those protections if you married the guy... something that a homosexual cannot do in a state that prohibits same-sex marriage .
"I am realistic in the fact that homosexuals have equal rights already in society; they dont want marriage they want to destroy Godly precepts and the parameters set in place for moral edification and protection of the church and Gods people,and some of you ministers are leading us astray."
In places where they cannot get married they do not have equal rights... they want marriage because they want to have the same rights as heterosexuals... not to 'destroy Godly precepts'. A church is free to marry / not marry whom ever they chose... it is in the law that these rights need to be enshrined.
"Please consider that all societies need moral guidelines and Godly parameters for a safe and healthy life and country not just just for the family unit, but children and society, as a whole need the church to be the church and a light of higher quality."
Moral guidelines are needed... Godly parameters are not.
"Only an enemy of God would want to condone homosexuality and adultry"
I'm sure that gay Christians out there would disagree with you on that point... and that non-Christians don't really care.
- MrBook July 13, 2009 5:33PM
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then I dare you to tell that to Elton John. PS Id stand back a few feet when I told him so if I was you.
The homosexual movement is based on lies and deception, always has been and always will be, and its obvious we disagree on this matter, and I have no reason to beleive what they are saying now in regards to why they feel that civil unions /domestic partnerships are not good enough runs the same lines. You are wrong. The homosexual community said that if marriage is granted to them they will not use it to sue churches or push agendas in schools, yet they are and will do just that. And the comment on an adultress only needing to marry the man after he gets a divorce...ludacrious ( my spelling sucks sorry) you advocate divorce so someone else can marry...are you serious that is a sorry excuse and what if he doesnt want a divorce but wants a mistress and visa versa, why cant they just be married and have legitimate, legal , and acknowledged mistress on the side who is given all the rights a married woman would have....I dont think Im asking for anyting more than what homosexual couples say they dont have and want right? They are intimate, so were we, they share housing, so did we, they spend alot of time together, so did we, they feel married, we did too. Why should one relationship ie homosexual one have precedence over ours? We loved each other dearly and I would have appreciated some respect and acceptablity in society . Wait you say adultry is wrong? Hypocritical isnt it?
And as far as your comment about gay Christians thats as possible as a three hundred pound sexy swimsuit model, neither are suitable nor possible, sorry.
A discussion of Iowas ssm laws:
quote from article The Institution Formerly Known as Marriage
by Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse at http://www.ruthinstitute.org /
It should be evident that if the purpose of marriage is to attach mothers and fathers to their children and to one another, then the dual gender requirement is perfectly permissible. Same-sex couples and opposite-sex couples are not the same with respect to this purpose. The Court had to come up with a very limited understanding of the purposes of marriage in order to maintain that opposite-sex and same-sex couples are in fact similarly situated.
end quote
- Hope7 July 14, 2009 8:34AM
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"then I dare you to tell that to Elton John. PS Id stand back a few feet when I told him so if I was you."
Are you referring to the emotion that Elton and his partner feel or their legal status... because I agree with you on the first count (emotionally their bond is as tight as a heterosexual couples) but from a legal standpoint I'll disagree with you. In a state where same sex unions / marriages are not recognized they do not have the same rights as a married couple.
And that is the question... Should homosexual couples be able to enjoy the same rights as heterosexual ones. To me the answer is easily yes... and if they have identical rights then why does the name at the top of the form they sign need to be different? Legally that name would be the only difference between Civil Unions and Marriage... so why call it something different?
"The homosexual community said that if marriage is granted to them they will not use it to sue churches or push agendas in schools, yet they are and will do just that."
[Citation needed] on that one. All the cases loudly trumpeted as 'homosexuals suing churches' that I have seen have turned out to be quite different once the full facts are brought forward. As an example I'll point to the case where a homosexual couple sued a church over the use of their pavilion... that pavilion was rented out to those outside the church, and thus barring homosexuals was an act of discrimination... which would have happened if the church had refused to marry a mixed race couple.
"my spelling sucks sorry"
I'd recommend using firefox... it has a spell checker that underlines misspelled words and lets you correct them by right clicking on them. Bad spelling has always been a problem for me... so I use it quite often (I misspelled recommend above when I was typing this).
"I dont think Im asking for anyting more than what homosexual couples say they dont have and want right? "
Yes you are... that is polygamy. Homosexuals are asking that they can enter into monogamous relationships.
"Why should one relationship ie homosexual one have precedence over ours?"
They don't want precedence... they want equality with heterosexuals.
"Wait you say adultry is wrong? "
When did I? A polygamous relationship, where all parties know about everyone else, are not morally wrong in my view (though I'm into monogamy myself). A polygamous relationship where one or more of the people don't know about the others (say a man cheating on his wife but not telling the woman that he is with that he is married) is only immoral for the person doing the lying.
"And as far as your comment about gay Christians thats as possible as a three hundred pound sexy swimsuit model, neither are suitable nor possible, sorry."
Though it's not my taste I wouldn't be overly surprised if you could find a 300lb swimsuit model that someone out there found sexy. As to gay Christians... There are those who identify themselves as such, and I have no problem agreeing with them. There are many different Christian factions out there... and many claim that they are the only 'true' Christians, with everyone else being wrong (or evil).
"It should be evident that if the purpose of marriage is to attach mothers and fathers to their children and to one another, then the dual gender requirement is perfectly permissible."
You seem to be focusing on marriage as it relates to having children (either through some nod-nod, wink-wink... or via adoption ). There are many couples who are married but do not have children, is their marriage somehow invalid?
- MrBook July 14, 2009 6:00PM
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I may be from California but Im slow as a Texan, no cut to Texas because life is slower there and alot of good people live out there,but really, they take forever to make a point though, but good people.
I love Elton John but before I would tell him to his face that his civil union is somehow not as significant as a marriage lisence Id personally stand a foot away,not implying hed react adversely, well I guess I am arent I. Can I ask you a question? Why do you want to be married? If its for rights, why arent you soliciting to increase your rights within civil unions /domestic partnerships instead of destroying traditional marriage,dont even bother denying it,what would it profit you to have a lisence vs a city hall partnership agreement form?
Your agrument quote: Legally that name would be the only difference between Civil Unions and Marriage... so why call it something different? end quote
You answer that one? Why indeed would you fight so hard for just a name?
And as far as the comments about adultresses having the same rights not being the same as a homosexuals rights is wrong and you and I and the whole world knows it! Marriage as we have it now is set up for the betterment of a society in order to have stable homes that will provide those within them security to thrive and grow and become productive individuals and thereby profit the whole community and our country to accept ssm will do just the opposite and again you know it, I know, and the whole world knows it.
I feel like you are not serious about marriage but more serious about hurting someone you feel is your problem and standing in the way.
I probably wont change to firefox, dont know where to get it anyway. I do apologize for my spelling, its horrible, I could put it on word and do spell check first and then on here but Im too lazy.
As far as the swimsuit comment its as likely to be a cover of SPORTS ILLUSTRATED sexy swimsuit edition or Hugh Hefners Bunny of the Year as to be able to put oil and water together perm. or as to be a practicing homosexual claiming to be authentic Christian because a sincere Christian would not, could not, live the homosexual lifestyle simply because as a born again believer living by the power of the Holy Spirit you would not consistently disobey every fiber of that Holy Spirits direction which that lifestyle would embody.
Again sorry for spelling. Could you be so kind as to over look it?
- Hope7 July 15, 2009 1:44PM
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After witnessing a murder of a 17 yo boy who was, by the way, being raped by a homosexual man in 1980 in N. California I was attacked afterward at my home and at college and it destroyed my life and for 10 long hellish years I lived outside the Christian community and that is what qualifies me to tell you that wrong will never be right no matter how much you want it to be and not even a peice of paper can give you that. Wonderfully came back to God in 1998 and that is when my life started again. I have by my own choice lived celibate ever sense and that too qualifies me to tell you that you can live single, without sex, sex is not the bottom layer of Maslows heirarchy of needs, trust me, its not. My story at www.hope7.highpowersites.com
- Hope7 July 11, 2009 6:54AM
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Since homosexual marriage became “ legal ” the rates of HIV / AIDS have gone up considerably in Massachusetts. This year public funding to deal with HIV/AIDS has risen by $500,000.
Citing “the right to marry” as one of the “important challenges” in a place where “it’s a great time to be gay”, the Massachusetts Department of Public Health helped produce The Little Black Book, Queer in the 21st Century, a hideous work of obscene pornography which was given to kids at Brookline High School on April 30, 2005. Among other things, it gives “tips” to boys on how to perform oral sex on other males, masturbate other males, and how to “safely” have someone urinate on you for sexual pleasure. It also included a directory of bars in Boston where young men meet for anonymous sex.
Given the extreme dysfunctional nature of homosexual relationships, the Massachusetts Legislature has felt the need to spend more money every year to deal with skyrocketing homosexual domestic violence. This year $350,000 was budgeted, up $100,000 from last year.
At my own children 's high school there was a school-wide assembly to celebrate same-sex “marriage” in early December, 2003. It featured an array of speakers, including teachers at the school who announced that they would be “marrying” their same-sex partners and starting families either through adoption or artificial insemination. Literature on same-sex marriage – how it is now a normal part of society – was handed out to the students.
At a school in Mass. a class was held in March of 2000 that is down right criminal. Children as young as 12 were instructed by adults (state employees!) how to perform a range of dangerous and perverted homosexual sex acts, including fisting which became known as the fistgate incident.
In September, 2004, an 8th-grade teacher in Brookline, MA, told National Public Radio that the marriage ruling had opened up the floodgates for teaching homosexuality. “In my mind, I know that, `OK, this is legal now.' If somebody wants to challenge me, I'll say, `Give me a break. It's legal now,'” she told NPR. She added that she now discusses gay sex with her students as explicitly as she desires. For example, she said she tells the kids that lesbians can have vaginal intercourse using sex toys.
In 2005, when David Parker of Lexington, MA – a parent of a kindergartner – strongly insisted on being notified when teachers were discussing homosexuality or transgenderism with his son, the school had him arrested and put in jail overnight.
Second graders at the same school were read a book, “King and King”, about two men who have a romance and marry each other, with a picture of them kissing. When parents Rob and Robin Wirthlin complained, they were told that the school had no obligation to notify them or allow them to opt-out their child.
In 2006 the Parkers and Wirthlins filed a federal Civil Rights lawsuit to force the schools to notify parents and allow them to opt-out their elementary-school children when homosexual-related subjects were taught. The federal judges dismissed the case. The judges ruled that because same-sex marriage is legal in Massachusetts, the school actually had a duty to normalize homosexual relationships to children, and that schools have no obligation to notify parents or let them opt-out their children! Acceptance of homosexuality had become a matter of good citizenship !
In 2006, in the elementary school where my daughter went to Kindergarten, the parents of a third-grader were forced to take their child out of school because a man undergoing a sex-change operation and cross-dressing was being brought into class to teach the children that there are now “different kinds of families.” School officials told the mother that her complaints to the principal were considered “inappropriate behavior.”
- hallelujahchorus August 10, 2009 1:53PM
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This article essentially invalidates the common argument that, "If a homosexual couple wants to be together, nothing is stopping them. It doesn't matter if they are legally married." Legal recognition of a marriage is certainly an important issue because with this recognition comes certain rights and protections that are crucial to a couple. The ability to make hospital visits, to make certain economic decisions, and to guarantee the protection of a partner in the event of death are all examples of rights that a legal marriage provides. It is unfair to tell a man that he cannot visit his dying partner in the hospital when he cares for his partner in the same exact way that a heterosexual couple cares for one another.
- me58 February 26, 2009 11:05AM
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Oh baloney, prevents employers from acquiring good talent? How many times has this been thrown in the public face with absolutly to substance to the claim.
I will agree "Civil Unions" should be allowed and this would provide the protections under the Constitution, but not marriage, marriage that has been the way it has been for thousands of years. To change it would be reckless and careless. Avery bad example to provide our younger population and the world that because you feel you are entitled, that you can dismantle what has been put in place for a reason and purpose. A reason and purpose that gets loss from generaton to generation.
- pvtguy April 29, 2009 1:14PM
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I dont know how one could think that not giving children the benefit of a mother and a father is beneficial in any way. I dont know how one could think that woman and children will benefit from this in our society since woman make less and have less insurance it would only obvious that woman and children will have poorer health , poorer lifestyles, poorer everyting, and the male dominated world would not benefit from this either.
I dont know how you could even rationalize the fact that opening marriage up for a free for all would lead to a stronger society but a much weaker and distorted and psychologically imbalaced one and I hope that they would see that and that realizing that the road to hell is paved in roads such as the one that homosexual marriage will create in America.
It will weaken our family structure and thereby weaken our towns and eventually our country, if you dont think so remember what ERA for woman promised us, better futures more security etc blah blah and what did we actually get? Harder lives, more on our plates, expectations over the limit, family structure that fell apart without the mother role in the house, more money but that lead to more bills, more divorce rates because we allievated some of the mens responsiblities and that opened them up to the wondering eye, woman cheating on their husbands. Woman if we allow a redefinition of marriage we might as well just ask for the short end of the stick cuz thats what well get.
- hallelujahchorus August 24, 2009 3:25PM
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The Equal Rights Amendment was never ratified.
You have not shown how allowing two people to get married will somehow weaken the marriage of others.
- MrBook August 25, 2009 8:27PM
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The Equal Rights Amendment was ratified July 28, 1868.
- mike1948 August 26, 2009 10:51AM
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“The Equal Rights Amendment was ratified July 28, 1868.”
That is the 14th amendment to the constitution . The proposed amendment commonly known as the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) was first proposed in 1923 and was not ratified by the needed deadline in 1982, it was reintroduced this year.
I surely hope that hallelujachorus was not referring to the 14th, which was part of the sequence of amendments and laws that abolished slavery and granted civil rights to all US citizens.
- MrBook August 26, 2009 6:33PM
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The 14th Amendment gave equal rights to ALL US citizens. Women were US citizens. The Equal Rights Amendment proposed in 1923 was redundant and wouldn't have given them any rights that they didn't already have under the 14th Amendment.
- mike1948 August 26, 2009 10:22PM
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But the 14th was not "The Equal Rights Amendment"... that is the name for the amendment proposed in 1923.
- MrBook August 26, 2009 10:56PM
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The movement to pass the ERA was a fraud. All it did was collect money for decades trying to get women rights they already had and accomplished nothing.
- mike1948 August 26, 2009 11:37PM
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The LAMBDA argument sounds rehearsed or practiced. I do not support ssm, its wrong on so many levels. But I guess one of many of my concerns with this absurd phenomenon is the fact that we know that NAMBLA has very strong and documented ties to mainstream homosexual organizations and ssm is only a front to their attempts to rape little boys. I know you will deny it but the evidence is clear and it does not support you it supports the fact that children will be put into harms way if ssm is allowed to be normalized by using traditional legacys ie Holy Matrimony for one man and one woman. FBI agent infiltrates NAMBLA and writes book, " THE LAST UNDERCOVER " where he exposes link between homosexual activists and NAMBLA.
I guess the next concern I have which also is documented that ssm if its allowed to take on the name of Holy Matrimony vs Civil Unions would only be an attempt to force Christians into accepting the act of homosexuality as pleasing to Gd and we do not beleive that it is and we beleive that ssm is only about destroying Christian foundations. We only have to look as far as the latest caper pulled by homosexual activists ie the big kiss-in orgy in front of churches to know that they are about destruction not about building anything.
And I guess lastly I would just like to say that you have all the rights you need in a Civil Union so there is no reason to tear down someone elses belief system so you can walk all over them. I join with millions of others to denounce this hypocricy and ask Gd to help us to stop it from destroying other peoples lives so a minority can feel their jollies.
- angelmama September 7, 2009 8:35AM
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While this was true in the 80's it is no longer true. Homosexual groups disavowed NAMBLA over a decade ago and The Last Undercover, while true is equally dated. The problem with your logic is that just as allowing gays to be foster parents but not adopt doesn't really protect children , there is no practical difference between civil union and gay marriage . Just as there is are a few bad apples in any group, gays have there share. Allowing gay marriage would further marginalize those few bad examples.
- mike1948 September 7, 2009 2:49PM
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quote, "there is no practical difference between civil union and gay marriage .' If there is no difference then my vote is no.
Should marriage for same-sex couples be legal . My answer is no.
You ignore a moutain of evidence that could save some children so a few can say what....they have a marriage which is as you say no different than civil union. I vote no.
I choose to listen to evidence and base my decisions on that overwhelming argument that children are not better off, even in danger if placed in same-sex homes and not listen to the the, " because I want it", pissing and moaning of adults desperately at
Should Marriage for Same Sex Couples be Legal?
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The Real Goal of the Gay Lobbies
As the push for same-sex marriage continues, I believe that homosexual people will find that they are the recipients of a great deal of enmity and hostility from other people, all brought on by their political lobbies – the gay activist organizations.
But same sex marriage is not the goal of the gay lobbies. Their target is nothing less than a program to indoctrinate the public to accept the idea that the homosexual lifestyle is a normal, acceptable and desirable alternative to heterosexuality.
They’ve already begun. In April 2006, in Lexington, Mass. a second-grade teacher read a story book to her class about a prince who marries another prince...they even share a kiss. The irate parents in Lexington tried to get some assistance from the court in their efforts to reject books of this kind from the classroom, but the court turned them down since same-sex marriage is legal in Massachusetts.
We’ll be seeing more of this kind of indoctrination from the gay lobbies.
- Sivan
July 11, 2008 1:49PM
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And the Cosby show was indoctinating society...
The real purpose of the Cosby Show was to indoctrinate Americans that black people were normal, acceptable, and a desirable alternative in neighbors.
The bigotry just never ceases with you....
- SocialistBetty
January 4, 2009 1:37AM
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What are you even getting at?
Ad hominum is no effective way to argue. Who is to what the "homosexual lifestyle" is? All credibility is lost in that statement. And how can one say that homosexuality isn't "normal"? Attacking homosexuals and bisexuals because of your differing political beliefs has absolutely nothing to do with the core issue. Not every gay couple has an agenda to over run the government. Believe it or not, some homosexuals want to get married because they love each other, just like "normal" heterosexual couples.
- tripleayex
February 8, 2009 7:31PM
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Yes, and because
Yes, because we love each other. And because we want to be able to protect our children with ALL the same rights of marriage with which straight people are able to to protect their children. These are CIVIL rights, attached to CIVIL marriage, and were created by society as a safety-net available to citizens of this nation in exchange for making commitments to care for one's spouse and children, thereby relieving society of some of the risk it faces.
Many of the rights and benefits of marriage are specifically for the benefit and protection of children, and many gay families DO have children. Denial of basic civil rights to such families is a punishment to the children of gay parents simply because of who their parents are. This is not the kind of society we subscribe to in this country.
- Babaroni
February 8, 2009 8:47PM
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No,and because
It is not right it is not the way it should be or it wouldn't be a problem men are suppose to be with women and women with men otherwise it wouldn't be a taboo. But regraurdless of who is right or wrong the day will we will all find out for sure and then it'll be too late for the Gay's of the world I know my son brings a men homei'll disown him and shooot his whatever u call them.
- popabear
November 4, 2009 9:45AM
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Keep talking
Keep talking, popabear, and show the world what bigotry looks like. You're doing a great job of it.
- Babaroni
November 4, 2009 9:58AM
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get ur facts right!!!!
Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race , or religion : intolerance, prejudice. See like/dislike.
This is what bigotry means and I never said I dislike queers,gay's or whatever you like to call them big mouth I just said it wasn't right and I did not approve of there belief and I will condemn it in my household because I can Wanna be gay fine just not in my house and if it isn't wrong why was it hidden from population for so long yes yes I know it goes waY back in history but as far back in histry as it goes so is someone tring to hide it.
- popabear
November 4, 2009 11:27AM
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Other than
Other than threatening to shoot your son 's hypothetical gay partner, you mean? No, that's not hateful. That's not intolerant or prejudiced. Not at all.
- Babaroni
November 4, 2009 11:45AM
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They don't get it...
Homosexuality is a perversion from the norm. Perhaps we should let pedophiles have their way? Or Necrophiliacs have their way? MANSA claim they love sex with boys, so lets just let all perversions be accepeted! In the name of love of course... that makes it all OK!
- Argenious November 4, 2009 5:49PM
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quite different
Homosexuality may not be the sexual orientation of the majority, but it is hardly a perversion.
As to the standard claim about paedophilia and homosexuality ... you are aware that most paedophiles are heterosexual?
Paedophilia differs from homosexuality in one very important respect... by definition paedophilia requires a non-consenting partner (as minors cannot consent to sexual activity), homosexuality does not share that requirement.
- MrBook
November 4, 2009 7:43PM
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You are mistaken
Pedophilia is the abnormal sexual attraction to children , not a sexual act... has nothing to do with consent.
Normal: In accordance with scientific laws; Conforming with or constituting a norm or standard or level or type or social norm; not abnormal, et al...
Abnormal: Not normal; not typical or usual or regular or conforming to a norm; not conforming to the natural course of...
Homosexuality and pedophilia are abnormal sexual behaviours.
You need a refresher course in Human Sexuality 101.
- CitizenZebra
November 4, 2009 8:29PM
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wrong
Pay particular attention to CZ's explanation, he is absolutely correct.
- Argenious November 4, 2009 8:32PM
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The subjects of sexual deviancy...
always have an argument that it is OK, normal, acceptable etc. Probably the most significant cause for the aversion to homosexuality are displays like "Gay Pride", the parades on the streets of Frisco where radical nudity and simulated sex acts by homosexuals are publicly displayed.
- Argenious November 5, 2009 7:58AM
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What we want is equal rights for everyone!
Your right- gay marriage is a goal for us and everyone that believes in the American ideal of equal rights and celebrating our great diversity!
But, obviously, we deserve and expect more until one day we will be equal to our straight friends and truly be free! You obviously, share the views of the extreme right who has over the years, targeted groups they vehemently opposed! They took the lead in the 50's and 60's to oppose civil rights for African Americans , and when they lost that fight, they moved on and took on those who believed a woman has a right to choose an abortion or not. They did everything they could including murdering doctors who performed that service as well as demonstrating unlawfully at Planned Parenthood offices and showing unbelievable hatred! They lost that battle, since every poll shows majority of the people support abortion rights including those in Congress. Now they are taking on gays and lesbians and our supporters! Of course, they are using the same nasty tactics to gain support and media attention to get their message across! You people used to assert years ago that we had "a hidden gay agenda" that included corrupting the children in our schools ! Well that has been so thoroughly discredited by the vast majority of the American people now that it is brought now-except you!
One last thing about gay equality my bigoted friend-we are making headway in all parts of the country now although it has not been as fast as I'd wish. Hopefully, the Congress will finally vote in support of ENDA-Employment Non-Discrimination Act which will be a major milestone in the long journey towards equality. We have the votes now in Congress to pass major areas of concern for our positions! Thank God we have Obama and a liberal leaning Democratic Congress!
- philly53
September 3, 2009 9:04PM
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I wonder...
do you think drug dealers, pedophiles, rapists, murders etc, should all share equal rights, in other words, do as they wish?
- CitizenZebra
November 5, 2009 8:37AM
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Just Exactly Who is The Family Research Council?
I just made a long call to the Family Research Council in Washington DC, I was interested in possibly supporting them, I agree many of the positions they claim to represent. I am setting here very disappointed, to use mild comparisons they appear to be modern day Pharisees and Sadducees. For you non Christians they may be people who have hidden motives and are not who they claim to be. It is impossible to determine who where there funding comes from. For all we know they could be funded by interests in China who wish to have much more control over the USA. The Fact is we just don’t know who the money comes from or if they have hidden motives.
- Super Expert
October 21, 2009 1:50PM
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Family Research Council
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Research_Council
- mike1948
October 24, 2009 1:03PM
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Thanks for the link
I do appreciate you posting the wikipedia link. I have looked at it before and followed followed The Family Research Council for some time. My opinion is that the path they started on was good and as I have stated before, I agree with much of there agenda however they have strayed far from there original path into religious extremeism. They is not much left of what they started with. Possibly just satan getting his hooks into them. To me Godly things are of and in the light. The Family Research Councils funding is in the darkness. They will tell you very little of where there money comes from and I doubt they do much of a verification check of there donors. I continue to pray for them but I also stand by my statement that they appear to be modern day Pharisees and Sadducees. Once again I issue this request. How about it Family Research Council, give us a list of your top twenty contributors and there amounts and dates donated. If your really from GOD the father of Christ Jesus, stand in the light and quit hiding your finances and donors in darkness.
- Super Expert
October 24, 2009 2:49PM
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Posturing.
The problem with all these groups is that their solution is all the same: Pray, Vote Republican, and Send Them Money. They are posturing. They acomplish very little.
- mike1948
October 25, 2009 12:51AM
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A challenge to the rhetoric of "victimized" conservatives
What is perhaps just as logically flawed claims of "unnatural" homosexuality is the rhetoric of victimization that this organization claims for the conservative agenda. By twisting the truth into a depiction of the "seemingly invincible juggernaut of the gay agenda," this conservative group attempts to appear as a political underdog-- trying to evoke pity as a proxy for support.
I wish that the gay agenda had the type of corporate dollars, supporters in the White House and other forms of financial and personal resource the conservative Christian agenda funnels to our nation's political system-- as this expert seems to claim. Then we would have an equal footing for debate.
Until then, do not mistake the persistent inequality of political power based on this organization's skewed vision.
Let's continue fighting for the true equality of all families!
- JMT July 13, 2008 7:07PM
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Hate is Hate
Whether it be for the color of someones skin, or their choose of whom to love, hate is hate. People hate what they do not understand, or what they see in themselves. That being said, discriminating against the life choices of someone else is just wrong.
- Ralph July 16, 2008 12:19AM
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I agree
Hate is hate, and attacking anyone who disagrees with you, questioning their motives and reviling them as bigots, is hateful. Attacking your opponent's moral integrity is a great way to piss them off, but not of convincing them that your argument is superior.
- richardsonkr
January 17, 2009 6:00PM
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If the shoe fits...
Definition of bigot from Merriam-Webster: "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance"
One who wants to exclude individuals of a certain "group" from marriage is intolerant, and bigoted. So if the shoe fits...
And if it is hateful to disagree with bigots, then I am a hateful person and am reveling in it.
I guess attacking a bigot's moral integrity is equal to the hurt that a homosexual person's feels when they are denied the opportunity to marry the partner of their choice because someone who has nothing to do with them doesn't like the idea.
We should all be more careful in assuring that bigot's feelings aren't hurt. Sorry.
- illusion
June 10, 2009 12:44AM
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And the definition of the word Higot
Higot-according to mothers book of definitions means a person who practices, by choice, the act of homosexuality and then blames everything under the sun for their sexuality to the point of abnormal psychology. The higot feels they are deserving of special treatment by the whole of society because they just do,period. A person who does not see tolerance as something they must exhibit but that all others must abide by these cosmic rules;a sense of distorted reality aka homosexual bigot=higot. A person who will when they are questioned about their sexual choice will deny the ability to choose or willingness to admit they can change. Despite horrendous mounting evidence to the contrary.
They will say they are born this way and have no choice but deny the fact that people like Rock Hodson would be alive today since his first choice was a woman. They will question the authenticity of someones homosexuality if they do anything illegal or immoral ie serial rapist/murderers that are homosexual are not true homosexuals according to them. That is quite interesting given the fact they feel that homosexuality cannot be taught or learned but is a birth condition, without any genetic proof ofcourse. While on the other hand teaching homosexuality to children in school. Was removing this from a mental disorder the wisest decision. NO.
We should, and dare I say must, be careful when it comes to the fact our children are being hurt by this misguided and dangerous sexual movement.
- Hope7
June 16, 2009 8:52AM
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Sounds like a reputable dictionary source.
The mother's book of definitions- Where can I buy one? Sounds like it is on par with Oxford dictionary.
By your definition from your reputable "mother's book" a higot is - "a person who practices, by choice, the act of homosexuality " - How do you know that it is a choice? I guess you won't believe that homosexuality is a choice, until it is proven." That is fine, but I hope you don't also try to say that god is real, because he/she/it isn't proven either.
Also, you claim that a higot - blames everything under the sun for their sexuality to the point of abnormal psychology." - What? Are you saying that homosexuals think that they have a mental disorder? Later, you say: "Was removing [sic] homosexuality from a mental disorder the wisest decision. NO." Because from this, it seems as though YOU think that homosexuality is a mental disorder, not the homosexuals. And I guess then, from your logic about how homosexuality is a choice, I guess all mental disorders are a choice right? ADD? PTSD? Dementia?
You then go on to say- "The higot feels they are deserving of special treatment by the whole of society because they just do,period." - Um...or maybe they feel that they are deserving of not special, but EQUAL treatment because the Declaration of Independence says "all men are created equal" and the 14th amendment guarantees equal protection under the laws of this country. I guess that is the same as "just because." Right?
Further, you argue that a higot is- "A person who does not see tolerance as something they must exhibit but that all others must abide by these cosmic rules;a sense of distorted reality aka homosexual bigot=higot." So... you don't exhibit tolerance to homosexuals...but you think that they, as part of all others, should tolerate/abide by the laws proclaiming the sanctity of heterosexual marriage, protection of your god, etc. Right? - So then, aren't you calling yourself a higot? It seems as though the person suffering from a distorted reality is you. By the way, I know many homosexuals who are more than tolerant that I am a heterosexual female.
You also say that a higot is- "A person who will when they are questioned about their sexual choice will deny the ability to choose or willingness to admit they can change. Despite horrendous mounting evidence to the contrary." If leading a heterosexual lifestyle is uncomfortable to a homosexual person, why should they change? Forced to live a false life so you can sleep better at night? So they have to lead a life of misery to satisfy your intolerance? Further, would you like to post the links of this "mounting evidence"? I would like to see the source.
Speaking of Rock Hudson you say- "They will say they are born this way and have no choice but deny the fact that people like Rock Hodson would be alive today since his first choice was a woman"- Were you personal friends with Rock? Did he tell you that his first choice was a woman? Did you ever think that he married a woman to protect his career from bigots like yourself? I suspect that is more likely what happened.
You say- "They will question the authenticity of someones homosexuality if they do anything illegal or immoral ie serial rapist/murderers that are homosexual are not true homosexuals according to them." - Um...don't "straight" men distance themselves from other "straight" men who are serial rapists/murderers? That's ok right?
"They feel that homosexuality cannot be taught or learned but is a birth condition, without any genetic proof of course." - Last time I checked, there is no solid proof of god, so you better not be believing in him either, because there is no solid proof. I am sure even if studies came out proving that homosexuality was genetic, you would find a reason not to believe it, just like evolution .
You then go on to say- "teaching homosexuality to children in school." Umm...more like teaching TOLERANCE at school. Tolerance to accept others that are different than you. Maybe you need to go back to school, because you are clearly deficient in this area.
You close with: "We should, and dare I say must, be careful when it comes to the fact our children are being hurt by this misguided and dangerous sexual movement." - I respond that we should, and dare I say must, be careful when it comes to the fact that our children are being hurt by this misguided and dangerous bigotry.
- illusion
June 17, 2009 12:16PM
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Minor Point
It is the school 's job to teach, not indoctrinate. Reading, writing, math, science , and history should be on the school's list, not tolerance. Other than that, I agree with you 100%
- richardsonkr
November 5, 2009 10:11AM
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Hate is....
an abstract term for an emotion, emotion is a psychological response to something... by nature if something is repulsive to you, you have an emotional response. It is, has been and will always be a part of the human psyche.
I hate child molestors... is that wrong? It is all one's own perception of things, not for you, me or anyone else to decide who likes what and if it is right or wrong! The actions one may take against someone or thing they hate... that is a different story.
- CitizenZebra
November 5, 2009 8:46AM
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who seeks to exclude from others the rights they themselves enjoy
If marriage between a man and a woman were declared illegal tomorrow. My wife and I would still be together. We would know who we are to each other. We would raise our child together.
How then is our union threatened by others also joining into marriage. Choosing, not because of tradition or expectation or law, but because of the purest purpose and reward of marriage, loving union with your partner.
The threat to marriage comes from those wanting to join into its covenant, but rather those ready to declare individuals unfit because of color or faith, station in life or their sexual orientation.
- Tony Hudgins
July 17, 2008 1:21AM
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Should Marriage for Same Sex Couples be Legal?
I'm all for same sex couples getting married. But it's the legal part that I disagree with. IMHO, the legality of marriage should have nothing to do with government recognition or benefits.
Governments should have a concept for Civil Unions for any two people to enter into. A contract between the couple and the State in essence. If the government wants to provide benefits, i.e. tax deductions, to people in a union as a result of them having kids, owning property, etc, then do so as encouragement and recognition that stable relationships can benefit the greater good of society (not that single people don't as well.)
Marriage then should be, as it has become, a religious institution. Let each faith in the world decide if they will allow their religious leaders and followers to participate in same sex marriages or not.
- BrianJ July 24, 2008 6:01AM
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Eliminate marriage as a legal concept
Marriage is, at its heart, a religious concept. Many valid social goals are accomplished by giving it legal weight, and it's time we explicitly enumerate those goals, and how those goals can be accomplished. A contemporary American nuclear family could easily do just as well raising a child as an extended family (with a single parent). Adults living together in one household enjoy pooling assets and resources. Why limit that to a man and a woman? Why not homosexual couples? Why not extended families? Why not polygamous unions? Public policy should explicitly exclude religious tenets. Religious are free to forbid same-sex marriages, but the scope of that limitation should not exceed the boundaries of the church.
- Fastolfe July 24, 2008 12:34PM
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No, not really
"Marriage is, at its heart, a religious concept."
This is factually inaccurate. Marriage is a cultural construct that transcends religions, whose requirements and structure vary from religion to religion, culture to culture, period to period.
Marriage as understood in western society arose from property issues, particularly inheritance for legitimate male offspring. For a signficant part of Christian history, the Christian church did not participate in marriages. Marriage in the U.S. is not contingent on having any religious allegiance, nor does it require adherence to the rules and beliefs of one's chosen religion. The marriage contract in the U.S. is a civil contract, and the clergy's religious role in weddings is ancillary to the civil authority they are granted by the state to recognize the civil contract of marriage.
- WRoget
August 20, 2008 7:02PM
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Interesting
That's an excellent point, and one that I really hadn't considered up until now. Kudos.
- richardsonkr
January 17, 2009 5:56PM
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Agreed
It seems that the "sanctity" of marriage is one of the most common arguments that it needs to be between a man and a woman. It is evident that, especially today, religion generally takes very little role in marriage, regardless of the fact that it sometimes happens in a church.
- tripleayex
February 25, 2009 8:50PM
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What is "marriage"?
That two or more people can marry one another emotionally is both unquestionable and unpreventable by others. Those in "same-sex" relationships have emotionally married one another likely since our species was identifiable as a distinct species and will likely continue to do so until the species is no more. Those who wish to keep the administrative marriage of same-sex individuals illegal cannot prevent the emotional marriage, nor can they prevent same-sex relationships from both inventively creating offspring and raising them to maturity. One wonders what is actually being accomplished except the irrational and prejudicial exclusion of some individuals from the benefits of administrative recognition of what already exists. What is likely to happen in the continued illegality of same-sex administrative marriage is that these individuals will acquire the same benefits of heterosexual marriages by other means. Life adapts and improvises - or it perishes.
- Naumadd
July 24, 2008 8:30PM
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End marriage as a legal entity.
A friend of mine actually brought up an interesting point that I'm going to inject into this conversation to see what happens, I'm not really sure I agree with it 100%, and I certainly wouldn't say it's flawless, but it is interesting. He suggested ending "marriage" as a legal term, and allowing only civil unions. Leave marriage to the churches. That way, if a church thinks that gays can be married, they can be. If a church doesn't want gays to be married there, then they can refuse to. Rights will be the same for both hetero and homosexual couples, and the churches can still have their way.
- richardsonkr
January 17, 2009 5:54PM
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A Fine Idea
This a great idea and one I agree with completely. The usual objections to homosexual marriage is from a religious point of view, not one of protecting individual rights and liberties. Government recognition of marriage has nothing at all to do with religion and everything to do with social contracts. Turning every existing marriage, at least for legal purposes, into a civil union removes any religious prejudices. It becomes mere legal recognition of a voluntary union of two or more human beings. This last part I say because objections to marriages of more than two individuals are also religiously motivated and has nothing at all to do with legal protections of individual rights.
"Sanctity of marriage" is tribalism that must not be tolerated in a culture that purportedly values individual rights and liberties above all else. Tribalism is socialism is communism is, in any event, contrary to the nature of all life which is to seek its own way in the interest of its own survival and happiness. Civilization merely inserts the proviso that one can have all of that provided one allows the same for others. Marriage traditionalists wish to establish and maintain and members-only club.
As I pointed out, they may perhaps prevent recognition of homosexual marriages among themselves, however, homosexuals genuinely desiring marriage to another or others will find a way to do so regardless of irrational barriers to official sanction. In any event, a true marriage is an emotional bond - not an administrative status - of which no one can prevent or dissolve except those involved in the relationship. This is why it is true there are authentic marriages without official sanction and officially sanctioned marriages that are an emotional fraud. Human beings must and, I believe, will progress to a more genuine kind of marriage much less focused if at all on official sanction, i.e., official marriage or even civil union, and more importantly focused on the existence or non-existence of emotional bonding.
It is the only kind of marriage that genuinely matters. If it was the way everyone understood marriage, this debate would not be happening.
- Naumadd
January 17, 2009 7:16PM
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Rambling minutia
A point for you to ponder in absolute ad nauseam; why does one go around the block to reach a point within arms length?
- Argenious November 5, 2009 8:03AM
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Divorce
Well, a problem, which there may be more with this idea of making marriage not a legal issue is that of divorce. The way it is presently setup the government also deals with divorce, but a divorce case could not be settled in court if the marriage was never considered to be legal or at least something that can be considered legal, however I don't mean to convey that it would make it illegal, just that it wouldn't be covered in our laws anymore. Oh! and another thing is for those who are atheists or simply don't choose to go to church how would that work? What I mean to say is simply that the idea is going to take a lot more than just an idea, it'll have to be covered on all bases to even work....however the intent behind the idea, I don't necessarily disagree with it.
- eJones
January 25, 2009 9:46PM
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Don't see where your going with this...
Just because marriage would be ended as a legal entity doesn't mean that civil unions wouldn't. The civil aspect of marriage would remain the same except that it would not be called "marriage." That title would only be given by Churches.
- richardsonkr
January 25, 2009 10:21PM
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Sorry for my lack of clarity....
Well, I'm not entirely sure what you mean now, but I guess that "divorce" would have to also have an alternate name because it deals with the separation of two "married" people. Simply put, what I meant to say was that many laws and specifics of the system would have to be altered, whether severely or not, and I'm not sure how easy it would necessarily be to do....thus, it'd take a lot of work and careful planning...
- eJones
January 25, 2009 10:28PM
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No it doesn't
A divorce is an end to the legal aspect of marriage. I don't know how Protestant Churches work it, but in the Catholic Church, at least, the religious marriage is not recognized as ended until one gets an annulment, not a divorce. (I was raised Catholic, and went to Catholic school for 12 years, so even though I am no longer a Catholic, I know the system pretty well.) Even then, the marriage did not end, as an annulment states that the marriage was invalid to begin with, and you were never really married. They take that whole "till death do us part" thing pretty seriously. Like I said, I don't know Protestantism as well, so I couldn't tell you what they do, but I do know that a divorce is only the end of a marriage in the legal sense, and that the religious institution can maintain that you are still married, so divorce could still apply if all marriages were to be call civil unions legally.
- richardsonkr
January 26, 2009 7:22AM
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Definition of marriage
The definition of marriage is a union and committment between a MAN and a WOMAN. PERIOD. You don't change definitions because a small vocal minority wants it. I certainly understand same sex people being in love and wanting to spend their remaining days together. So for insurance and other reasons I would be inclined to agree with some type of civil unions. But marriage.....NO
- irishguy730
July 25, 2008 7:56PM
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Reply to irishguy730
The definition of the term "marriage" is such because we have arbitrarily defined it that way as an expression of views we have inherited. There doesn't seem to be a justification for this definition in your comment. On your line of reasoning, inter-racial marrying, which was of course legally barred for decades, would automatically be justified. We must challenge these assumptions to see if they hold water today.
Considered more systematically however, if you were to go to church and marry without seeking the approval and consent of the state, your marriage wouldn't be legally valid. The inverse, however, isn't true: If you are given a contract by the state to marry without seeking the consent of a religious affiliation your marriage is still valid. My point is that marriage, at its foundation, is granted importance by the state. Therefore, religion aside, why shouldn't consenting adults be allowed to marry whom they choose?
- Alex M
August 26, 2008 3:04PM
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Definition of marriage
The definition of marriage used to be a union and a commitment between a WHITE MAN and a WHITE WOMAN. It was changed because a vocal minority wanted it. Does that mean it was wrong?
- DrobUA
December 22, 2008 10:33PM
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Defintion of Marry
I agree the definiton of marriage is between a man and woman but, the word marry means- To join as spouses by exchanging vows, to take as a spouse, to obtain by marriage. My opinion is marriage is to take a spouse, doesnt matter if its same sex or different sex. I can tell you from personal expierence that same sex marriage is important for same sex partners but more importantly its important to their children . Maybe more so to kids .
- gtucker09
May 27, 2009 8:45PM
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Definitions do change...but
No one is redefining the definition of marriage. Marriage means quite literally the joining of entities - be it buisnesses, ideas, people, elements...etc.
But for the sake of things changing... here are some words that have changed:
Commit: to come together - but now it also means a number of other things.
Luxury: originally meant ‘lasciviousness’ or ‘lust
Cookie: both means food and now has tech meaning as well
Mouse: animal and tech
Scroll: ancient piece of paper... and how one moves down the screen
Undertaker: old meaning entrepreneur, now entrepreneur means small business owner
Inspire: to breath life into - now also means to elicit, to move to action etc.
Nice: use to mean 'not to know', but now it means something well... nice. :) good.
Bundle of sticks - in the old english - now is a derogatory word
Gay: meant happy or merry - so quite litterally when when everyone was happy - it meant everyone was gay. Obviously the meaning has changed.
But in the case of marriage - it is not changing, at least not in the true sense of change as noted above. It still means to come together, to bind, to join, to create a union... etc.
All citizens should have the right to choose their life partner, marry them, and enjoy the benefits of doing so.
- virescentgirl
June 25, 2009 1:46PM
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who cares!!!
ppl serisouly waste way too much time on issues like this when there are bigger things going on in the world. its so tireing listening to this argument. BOTTOM LINE....why does it matter?!?!? i am a straight female...i love my boyfriend...and i do not care if 2 women or 2 men are in love and want to be married. you cannot stop it...if they are in love and want to be together for the rest of their lives...they will!whats the big deal with making it official by allowing marrige??? who cares!!! i get that religious ppl go by what the bible says....but would you really care if you didnt have your religion to back it up??? its fine that ppl have their beliefs....i respect that. but this issue to me seems like it shouldne even be an issue. times have changed...and ppl continue to change as well.i have relatives along with friends who are gay. and guess what...their just as normal as everyone else i know. i dont see the big deal. ppl feel what they feel and they shouldnt be belittled bc of it
- lanidee02 July 26, 2008 9:13AM
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Gay-marriage opponents ignore fact.
Let me dissect a few points that opponents of gay marriage often bring up:
-Gay marriage will lead to more homosexuals by legitimizing the gay lifestyle.
A Swedish study published last month showed that gay men and women consistently displayed a brain structure that resembled that of the opposite sex. You see, one of the hemispheres of a woman's brain is slightly bigger than the other, while in men the hemispheres are the same size, which has long been known to be a reliable way to tell apart the sexes physically (besides the really obvious ways) Gay men had brains that resembled a woman's brain and vice versa for lesbian women. This basically proves irrefutably that homosexuality is not a so-called "lifestyle choice", but a born-in trait, determined in the womb.
-Gay parenting will create screwed up kids by denying them a father or mother figure.
Yes! This is why we, as a society, do not allow single mothers to raise kids. It's just not healthy.
I'd do more, but I'm out of room.
- DelBeano
August 1, 2008 9:45PM
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Gay Parenting
"This is why we, as a society, do not allow single mothers to raise kids. It's just not healthy" how can you say that society doesnt allow single mothers to parent so gays shouldnt either? around 50% of marriages dont last, gay or straight regardless creating single parents. single mothers and fathers raise children all the time with complete sucess and in that situation there is only 1 parent. in a gay marriage there are 2 parenting so it would only create more stability and a better concept of family. im sorry to say that most who are so insecure about any aspects of homosexuality are probably insecure with themselves.
- alesha September 15, 2008 7:19PM
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Re-read.
You're right, but I think you mischaracterize the statements above. If you re-read you'll find that DelBeano was surely being sarcastic, given that his or her statement was in support of gay marriage and is titled "gay marriage opponents ignore fact."
- nevermath
October 4, 2008 1:15PM
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Gay Parenting is no different than straight parenting
I was raised by my biological mother and her partner. I am no different than anyone else. Nor was I any different than any of my school friends. Which by the way was ALOT! None of their parents had any problems with it, it did not stop me from doing the same things that the straight parented kids did. When my mother died, many of my school friends and their parents attended her funeral, along with BOTH of my ex husbands and their families, including the new wives. My mother being gay did not hurt my children either. My mother's partner is still a daily part of our lives and we are the better for it! Get your facts straight. The kids that have issues are the ones raised by parents that dont give a crap about no one but themselves. Out there screwing around,drinking and doing drugs. That is straight and gay parents. Your sexual orientation doesnt make you a bad or good parent, your heart makes that choice.
- gtucker09
May 27, 2009 8:54PM
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"No" answer is merely religious
The only reason to not allow same-sex marriage is religious in nature...that is it is an abomination to God. As a Christian myself, I realize that not everyone is Christian and that I have no right to impose my faith on anyone else.
Do I agree with the lifestyle? Of course I don't. Religious institutions may refuse to participate or officiate in said ceremonies if they wish, but for goodness sake let people be happy.
- bagpiper2005
August 12, 2008 2:20PM
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There is more than one religious perspective
The idea 'homosexuality is sin' is a religious belief, but it is not the only one. Many people of faith believe, based on the Bible, that homosexuality is not sin. Further, they believe that labeling the loving intimacy between two people of the same gender as 'an abomination' is not only a false translation of "toe'vah", but because it falls in a passage that requires the death penalty, the claim is a overt repudiation of Christ's teachings and a covert death threat.
In other words, to many progressive and liberal Christians, 'homosexuality is sin' is incompatible with Christian faith and life.
Since there is no such thing as a gay lifestyle, such claims are 'bearing false witness' which is repeatedly forbidden in the Bible.
Before posting one's religious views as fact, one should consider that they are, at best, speculation, and often lead one into sin, such as bearing false witness.
- WRoget
August 20, 2008 6:54PM
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No, it's not.
There are a few reasons not to allow same-sex marriage. One is that the traditional definition of marriage is between a man and a woman. Changing this definition opens the door to a whole bunch of other alterations. For example, "Why can't a consenting adult marry two consenting adults?" or "Why can't a consenting brother and sister get married?" It could also undermine the more traditional marriage, which has been a major stabilizing force in our society, and has already taken enough damage in recent years. I think it will eventually come to pass, but forcing the issue too soon will breed resentment and true hatred, not what the Left is calling hatred today. I'm talking about Amsterdam style killings and attacks. This nation forced slavery too soon, and had a bloody Civil War that left a large portion crippled with no one to blame but their former slaves. If slavery had been allowed to die on its own, which was already happening, there wouldn't be inequality today, and any racism would have died off quickly. Societal alterations are slow, and these things don't happen overnight. Already tolerance for homosexuals is much higher in this country than it ever had been. I hate to put a timetable on these things, but gay marriage will probably be legal in every state by 2020, and this whole argument will be as puzzling to my generation's kids and grandkids as segregation is to us. That is, unless the issue is forced, in which case, unneccesary blood will probably be shed, and there will be true hatred, true bigotry, and true enmity for the next 200 years.
- richardsonkr
January 17, 2009 5:49PM
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Do you care only for children?
The "parents" need their freedom too. We're all human beings, animals. We have feelings. It's just a minority of us have feelings for the same sex, but those people should not be deprived of their place in the society. It is not weird for a child to have two parents of the same sex. The parents need to be accepted in this society too.
As for the children, if they really do get out of hand with a single parent, we should help them more, shouldn't we? We should teach them if their parents don't.
The children feel left out because the society looks at same sex parents as unacceptable people. Just like the parents feel the pain.
The best solution to this is to accept same sex lovers as part of our society, not looking down on them or anything, letting them feel accepted, so the children will not have any problems at all.
- Rainie August 13, 2008 2:28AM
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Proof please
Sivan claimed "But same sex marriage is not the goal of the gay lobbies."
So it should be easy for Sivan to provide 25 statements from 'gay lobbies' with external links of course, explicitly stating that same-sex marriage is not the goal'.
If Sivan does not or cannot, then Sivan is posting false information, and every claim by Sivan must be interpretted in light of that.
- WRoget
August 20, 2008 6:04PM
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Is it about rights?
Where I seem to run into a a problem is the claim that what is wanted most is rights. I have seen the idea of a union of two people with all of the legal rights of a heterosexual community floated only to see it rebuffed because the term "Civil Union" was used instead "Marriage". Presumedly because it implies acceptance by the broader community. Like it or not you can't legislate acceptance by a community or a religion. Attempts to do so generally result in resentment by both parties.
- Aegiltheugly
September 3, 2008 1:50PM
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Separate but equal is not equal
Aegiltheugly,
I believe that all they want is equal rights under the law. We've seen how "separate but equal" worked in the segregated south. It didn't work. "Separate" can never be "equal".
I firmly believe that the word marriage can be replaced by union, civil union, or household in legal documents and law. In fact, that's what we should do. Then, if you are registered in that status, you have all the financial obligations and rights that only married couples can share in now. And that includes divorce.
Then we could let the churches marry people under their beliefs and procedures. That way, the sacred covenant of marriage would be protected in your church.
Would that not satisfy everyone?
Michelle
- litebkt October 11, 2008 1:35PM
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Not even close to equal
I appreciate your points, Aegiltheugly, and I could accept the union, civil union, or household designation -- except for one thing. To yield the point would be to allow the religious right to claim a word out of the English language as belonging solely to them. According the Websters Dictionary, 1996, marriage is defined as the taking of another person as husband or wife. It says nothing about a husband taking a wife. Two women can just as easily take each other as wife, or two men take each other as husband. I feel it would be wrong to make that sort of concession to any group. Witness the foolishness of Spike Jones suing Spike TV because they were encroaching on his trademark of his name.
- OddGrouch
October 29, 2008 4:33AM
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You have made a great point and I've changed my opinion
OddGrouch,
You have an excellent point and I now agree with you without reservation. It must be up to the churches to make their own distinction within their own congregations and doctrine and practice that belief within the confines of their faith. Marriage under the law should be afforded to everyone. It is a right that we must all have.
Michelle
- litebkt October 29, 2008 12:47PM
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Marriage is only between a man & a woman
Two people of the same sex getting married is just two people playing house. It has nothing to do with hate or discrimination. It has to do with what is right or wrong. Allowing gay marriage is just showing that the society is going deeper into moral decay. God is the one that created marriage & it is between one man and one woman anything else apart from that is not of God therefore, cannot be called a marriage.
Some people might say God does not judge them well let's clarify that. While you are alive on this earth in your mortal body God has not yet pass judgment on anyone because he wants everyone to be saved and that means accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of your life, because after death is the judgment. Everyone will give have to an account on the type of life they lived here on earth.
Does God allow each of us to make our own choices? Yes, but know this every decision you make has consequences. The Bible said in Revelation 2l verse 8, "But the cowardly, the unbelieving the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." I am not making this up it is already written.
- Tamara
September 4, 2008 8:07AM
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You May Be Christian...BUT...
You have no right to tell anyone how to live their lives. Not everyone believes the same way you do. What you are trying to do is impose your religion on everyone else, which is just as immoral as allowing corruption into your religion.
If your religion or any other religion does not want to ordain same-sex marriages, fine. But keep religion out of politics and let those who don't believe the same as you live their lives the way they see fit without you interfering with their right to do so. I don't see them interfering with your right to Bible-thump, so don't let them interfere with their right to unbelief if that's what they so desire.
- bagpiper2005
September 19, 2008 6:41PM
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Actually she isn't
Ummmm.......Tamara I believe it was, yeah, she wasn't telling her your opinion... She was quoting scripture....who wrote the scriptures? Oh yeah, God did, thus in quoting Him, she brought His opinions to the table, and I tell you so that you may know it and know it well. His opinion is one to be respected, he created you. Deny it all you will, but that isn't my opinion. It's not a belief, it's a fact. The evidence is all around you and you only don't see it because you close your eyes. She simply stated her agreement to the Bible, the Bible which is a set of moral statutes that we'd do well to obey if we want to go to Heaven. If we don't want to, ok, fine, we can do whatever we want to, but it doesn't mean we'll get away from judgment. Just because we feel it's ok to steal someones chocolate bar, and it's not against our conscience and we feel it's ok, that doesn't make it right. So don't be all you have religion thus I don't like you to Tamara, she is only posting her thoughts as is the purpose of this site. And she isn't imposing, if you don't wanna hear it, close your ears....but yeah, you'll be judged for that too.
- eJones
January 25, 2009 10:06PM
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So the opinion of...
...a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully is to be respected?
Not to mention the burden of proof is on you to authenticate the validity of the Bible or even the existence of a deity, nether of which you can do.
Stealing one's chocolate bar hurts the other person. A same sex marriage hurts nobody. That's the difference. Anyone with half a brain can realize that.
- bagpiper2005
January 25, 2009 11:05PM
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Ummmmmmm........I apologize...
I apologize for being blissfully unaware of who you are referring to in the first section of your reply, it certainly doesn't apply to Tamara, I hope, unless you know something I don't. I KNOW it doesn't apply to me........and if you are trying to apply it to God, well, I don't see how any of it applies to Him...or, were you even replying to what I said? I'm just a little confused.....I mean I guess when you got out your dictionary/thesaurus to look up those words, I suppose that you may have gotten a few definitions and meanings distorted but........I don't know....please explain?
If you want me to discuss the validity of the Bible, all you need do is ask; if you need proof of a deity (God) the proof is all around you, all you need do is open your mind and consider the proof and the facts. But if that doesn't work, you can still ask about that too.
I had a chemistry teacher who had a brain tumor, miraculously, she lived. However she did indeed lose part of her brain from that process, because of that I don't really appreciate that comment......and yes it does...to think otherwise would be.....well.....kind of stupid....
- eJones
January 30, 2009 10:25PM
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Just so's ya know
If you don't want people to bash your beliefs and opinion, you probably shouldn't bash theirs. I am all for gay marriage , but I don't see us making any progress by bagging on the Christian church . Mud slinging will get us no where. I will get off my high horse now, but it is possible to be religious and still support gay marriage.
- doughts
April 1, 2009 3:19PM
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This is the comment that made me sign up.
1.) Tamara only included a small quote from the Bible. The majority of her input was comprised of interpretation [albeit from her, you, or any minister] of this--and likely other--pieces of scripture. She stated her accordance with a common intrepretation of God's word. There are a great deal of interpretations of scripture, and unfortunately there is not much one can do to clear up misinterpretations considering that all the interpretations are based off of the same text.
2.) You cannot use people or the Earth as evidence in support of God if the question at hand is whether or not God created us and the Earth. It may be true [or equally likely false] that God created us and our surroundings, but said evidence is not valid support. Who knows if God created the universe or not... we can never prove such metaphysical conjectures.
3.) God may or may not be around [a question I often ask myself], but the Bible was still written by people. Wonderful lessons and words of wisdom, but it's still just a book. God is above and beyond such earthly, material things.
- userk
April 13, 2009 4:29AM
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My response
1.) 1 Cor. 6:9 " 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."
Sorry if I find this straight-forward, but it seems to me that if you don't interpret this as homosexuals will NOT enter the kingdom of Heaven...then, you're wrong. Plain and simple, not my opinion, nor interpretation, rather it is what it says.
2.) So how do you believe the earth (and the universe) was created? Evolution? Well if that's the case, look up the second law of thermodynamics, it states that everything is moving to disorder, when evolution says: bang = life and order. Ummmmm, no, even our own science laws disagree with that. And survival of the fittest? How come apes are still around if we evolved, wouldn't they be weaker and have died off by now?
And matter cannot be created or destroyed according to the law of conservation of matter (or mass), so how did all the matter appear on the earth, even the gases that allegedly were there to cause the 'big bang' had to have come from somewhere....right?
3.) Yes, people wrote the Bible; however, the author was God. That's a distinction that is crucial to understanding the Bible. And any argument associated with it.
Forty people wrote the Bible. How could they be in complete agreement with one another? The writing of the Bible spanned thousands of years. There are no contradictions whatsoever in the Bible. But books written by even one person can contradict themselves. How can it be that forty people, most of which didn't even live near the same time, be in complete agreement?
- eJones
June 13, 2009 8:27PM
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You're assuming things
1.) If a few scholars/linguists agree that "homosexuals" is a fair translation of the original text, then you are absolutely right. I don't have enough background in Greek nor in the Bible itself to figure it out. If the translation is accurate [which neither you or I can really know...] then you're absolutely right and this passage does speak against homosexuality .
2.) What does it matter how I believe the universe was created? I only said that if God created the universe [which He might have] we cannot use our existence as proof of it. I never discredited Creationism. Even if I had, that does not necessarily mean I believe in "Evolution." You're quick to assume my beliefs and even quicker to disprove them. Also, the Big Bang and Evolution are two entirely different theories and should be addressed as such.
3.) It is not crucial to accept God as an author to understand an argument put forth. That's like saying non-believers are incapable of understanding your ways. An argument should be evaluted for its reasoning, not who said it. There are also more than a few contradictions in the Bible. You'd have a much stronger argument by saying that there aren't many. And I'm sure some groups have 40+ members in complete agreement with each other sometimes. It's not impossible.
- userk
June 14, 2009 12:08AM
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clarification
"Well if that's the case, look up the second law of thermodynamics, it states that everything is moving to disorder, when evolution says: bang = life and order. "
-eJones
That is a rather large misrepresentation. the 2nd law states that the entropy of a closed system increases over time... but the Earth is not a closed system, the Sun adds most of the energy to the biosphere (with vulcanism a distant second).
"And survival of the fittest? How come apes are still around if we evolved, wouldn't they be weaker and have died off by now?"
-eJones
Because they are well adapted to their environment . Evolution is not a strictly linear process, ancestor species can branch into more then one decedent species... which is to say that modern apes and modern humans are 'cousins'
"And matter cannot be created or destroyed according to the law of conservation of matter (or mass), so how did all the matter appear on the earth, even the gases that allegedly were there to cause the 'big bang' had to have come from somewhere....right?"
-eJones
Matter did not 'appear' on earth, the earth formed from a cloud of interstellar dust (the same cloud that gave rise to the sun and the rest of the planets).
The origins of the universe are not yet known in any great detail... the Big Bang is the current theory, but many questions remain to be answered.
"Forty people wrote the Bible."
-eJones
That is a fairly specific number, how exactly was it arrived at?
"How could they be in complete agreement with one another? The writing of the Bible spanned thousands of years."
-eJones
The most direct answer is that because the Bible is a compilation of religious texts that they were chosen because they were consistent, and that the different authors had all read the earlier texts and were building on them.
"There are no contradictions whatsoever in the Bible. But books written by even one person can contradict themselves."
-eJones
So if everyone in the Bible was in complete agreement with each other then the OT passages supporting genocide and slavery are still acceptable?
- MrBook
June 15, 2009 6:37AM
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Logic.
It's nice to read something with a glimmer of logic after a marathon of its absence. I agree completely.
- andrewdang
November 4, 2009 3:24AM
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A lot of people wrote the scriptures
G-d only wrote a very small part of it--specifically, the 10 Commandments. The rest was dictated.
- quantummechanik
June 8, 2009 1:32AM
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Thanks for walking into the trap.
This comment is a perfect example of what a previous poster was talking about - opposition to this issue is based on religious dogmas. As long as you're proving them right at every turn, your side will never gain any ground with rationalists.
- DelBeano
September 23, 2008 7:25PM
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God and Marraige
God created marraige?
There are many people that do not believe in God but still get married. There are many others who believe in other gods that you do not believe in. Do they not have equal rights?
The bottom line for me is this: You have equal rights under the constitution or you don't.
Keep marriage sacred in your own church and let the government treat everyone equal. Won't that work?
Michelle
- litebkt October 11, 2008 9:42PM
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The Sky Is Falling
When divorce was legal, Judeo-Christian folk said the sky was falling. It didn't.
When contraceptives were legal, Judeo-Christian folk said the sky was falling. It didn't.
When custody rights were delineated, Judeo-Christian folk said the sky was falling. It didn't.
When abortion was legal, Judeo-Christian folk said the sky was falling. It didn't.
When same-sex marriages are legal, Judeo-Christian folk will say that the sky is falling. And it won't.
- QuinceyQuick
January 30, 2009 11:44PM
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There's no such thing as Judeo-Christian
That word was invented by Christians. Jews have virtually no common moral philosophies or spiritual frameworks with Christians. They appropriated us, like they did a lot of other people. Let's keep the Christian arguments on the Christian side.
- quantummechanik
June 8, 2009 1:13AM
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Civil Marriage vs. Sacramental Marriage
As long as marriage is used contractually by society as a means of determining who is or is not eligible to receive governmental benefits, rights or protections, there can be no legitimate reason to limit it to only heterosexual participants, based upon religious strictures and dictates.
Churches should have the absolute right to determine who is or is not eligible to receive any of their sacraments or blessings, and may discriminate at will based upon whatever criteria they set for themselves, but government has no such leeway. If heterosexuals continue to want their government to acknowledge their marriages and dispense rights and protections based upon those marriages, then such acknowledgement must be open and available to ALL citizens, regardless of sexual orientation.
The fact that we currently have a situation in which sacramental blessings of marriage and governmental verification of civil marriage are dispensed at the same moment by the same officiant, should in no way cause us to confuse the two separate and distinct institutions.
If we need to rename one of these institutions "civil unions" and provide such civil unions to all couples who seek governmental acknowledgment of their relationships, regardless of the gender of the participants, and leave the other term, "marriage" as a purely religious concept to be granted at will by various religious institutions, then so be it. It would probably be easier, on the whole, though, for us all to just grow up and realize that the two institutions exist side-by-side and, while we may be able to control the one (sacramental), there is no good reason to deny the other (civil) to any of our fellow citizens based upon our personal religious beliefs.
- Babaroni
September 10, 2008 5:49PM
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Same Sex Marriage
Same sex marriage is a perversion of the very meaning of the word 'marriage' - an institution established by God between one man and one woman for life. Homosexuality itself is a perversion and imagination of how we were created. Life is hard and there are hard questions asked in life, but this is not one of them. It is not hard to realize if we were created male or female, and one should bring their mind into harmony with the way their body was created / not bring their body into subjection to their mind. The reality is that we are either male or female - any other thoughts we may have about how we feel is not reality and nothing short of perversion and imagination of who we really are. To think of taking homosexuality to another level of 'marriage' is even more perversion and imagination.
- Canadian September 18, 2008 8:06PM
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Ah, the binary gender system.
So... I'm going to assume that you are vehemently against transexual people as well then? Ok, so you've quoted the bible at me, I'm assuming. I'd like to quote back.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son, that WHOSOEVER (hate to break it to you, that does include gay people) believes in him, shall not perish but have everlasting life.
For the sake of arguement, let's say that a gay christian couple wants to get married, because they want to have sex after they get married, not before. Wouldn't that mean they are following what God is teaching ? Also, please point out versus where the Bible says being gay is wrong.
Or how about John 8, 1-11? Let anyone among you who is without sin throw the first stone.
There's also the issue of love. If I remember correctly, love is the word used most in the bible. Gay couples love each other, and they deserve to be loved. And the hate the sinner thing? It's like saying you don't like people being left handed, but you like left handed people. Being gay isn't a choice, whatever you may think of it, it's a piece of your brain that's hard wired into you, like being straight.
- doughts
April 1, 2009 3:03PM
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Separation of Politics and Religion
To Bagpipe2005
It is impossible to separate religion from politics and this is why, whether you like it or not, or whether you are a Christian or not God is the one who created laws and how we as human beings should live in a society. The 10 commandments is the very basis of almost every county's law in the world today.
For example thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal, thou shall not commit fornication etc. And from these laws spring forth other laws.
So when people say separate religion from politics that is not a valid argument. God's standard will always be the best way, anything from that is lawless. So you not loving God or don't care anything about Him does not change anything. You have your opinion and I have my truth. Peace
- Tamara
September 20, 2008 11:43AM
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So are we going to teach...
...our kids that earth is 6,000 years old in school? Hey, you can't separate religion from politics, right?
Of course, I feel sorry for anyone who believes that nonsense.
By the way, I'm very deeply rooted in the Christian faith. I have a very strong faith in Christianity, but I do not force that faith on others and I let people live the way they see fit and love the people they want to love. Adultery is perfectly legal in this nation, as is lying, coveteousness, and not attending church, so your theory of the 10 Commandments being the basis for law is out the window.
A majority of the founding fathers of this nation were actually non-Christians anyway (most of them were Deists). "God's standard" might be the best way, but we can't hold everyone to that standard, as such we would be oppressing minorities. To make everyone commit to Christian values against their will is truly disgusting, people just want to be free to live their lives.
- bagpiper2005
September 22, 2008 1:56AM
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Couldn't have said it better myself.
Wow, bagpiper2005, every time I want to reply to a post you beat me to the punch and convey your opinions intelligently as well as passionately- kudos to you.
It I've read various posts for and against this subject and it seems as though the only people who are against it straightforwardly are those who come across as Fundamentalist Christians who can't seem to adapt very well to the changing times. In fact, after reading the primary article we are all debating on, my first impression was: "so... we shouldn't adapt- because 'that's the way things have always been- why change it?' how lame is that?" I mean, we've adapted so much as humans- all different cultures- we wouldn't have technology if we had maintained that mindset.
I also have deep rooted Christian beliefs- I'm 22, saving for marriage , (though I refuse to marry until everyone in my country is granted that right- guess I'll be a virgin for a long time, hahaha) and I have a lot of strong Christian beliefs- however, bagpiper2005, I agree that my personal beliefs should not prohibit anyone from loving whoever makes them happy- and marriage may be somewhat of a farce as of late (Celebrities are making marriage into a fad, it seems, what with the constant divorce rates and all that lovely jazz), but when I think of 'marriage' I think of happy people committing to loving one another for the rest of their lives- and the prospect of this right being denied to anyone makes me scoff.
When I was 12 years old, and a goody-two shoes Christian freak, and I was first presented with the prospect of homosexual marriage (by my super religious aunt) I was so puzzled and confused by the contradictory feelings I had regarding the topic- knowing that, per my aunt, 'and the bible - supposedly' God doesn't love 'fags' yet God is a God of love- yeah, you can see where my brain just exploded for a while, there...
So all the Fundamentalist Christian hubbub- regardless of the 'grounded evidence' presented in the bible- is just mind-blowingly asinine- even a twelve year old can see it.
- Questix
July 26, 2009 5:51AM
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Reading Suggestions
Tamara,
I think you would do well to to read about the actual writing of the US constitution and the bill of rights as well as the debates over religion and state laws that took place in Virginia prior to our founding documents. James Madison and Thomas Jefferson were very clear about what they thought should be the founding principles of this country.
Besides, not kill and not steal are pretty universal laws, they even existed before Moses received the stones they were written on.
- mangueken
November 19, 2008 4:24PM
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Lets Go
If you want to drag religion into this, fine. Here's a challenge, make a case against gay marriage that does not include religion, reproduction issues, ethics or anything stated here. My point is that as soon as this debate comes up, the first thing to be said is "well the bible says..." or "gay men or women cant reproduce". Oh, and you said "You have your opinion and I have my truth" well, that's an opinion. Your opinion is that you're right when it comes to religion. my opinion is that you're bring arrogant, close minded, and flat out rude.
- VerbalAssasin07
May 13, 2009 5:16PM
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Scientific Facts
Evolution theory makes it clear that homosexual activities are perversions of natural biological laws. The basis of evolution is the reproduction of beneficial genes and the elimination of detrimental ones in succeeding generations -- the "survival of the fittest." In our species that requires heterosexual intercourse. If accidental mutation had ever produced a "homosexual gene," lack of propagation would have quickly bred it out of Homo sapiens.
Thus, homosexuals do what they do because they want to, not because they have to. That they have a right to do it is no excuse for new laws to force others to approve of it.
Every known human community has had the sound scientific foundation of heterosexual marriage, which we are now urged to destroy for a minority's perverted pleasures.
- Allogic
September 29, 2008 7:18PM
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Mischaracterization of Evolution
THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT: Evolution has no moral import! It's also not a grounding for normative ethics. Even granted that homosexuals are 'unfit' for procreation biologically, this says nothing of moral implications.
Here's a thought experiment: let's say that a certain evolutionary trait develops which renders people sterile, should they not be allowed marriage?
Also, evolution isn't absolute, poor traits are not necessarily extinguished just because they aren't most fit.
Finally, how is allowing gay marriage "destroying" heterosexual marriage?
You should change the first letter of your screen-name to an 'i.'
- nevermath
October 4, 2008 1:25PM
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Scientific facts?
Actually, homosexuality could be argued to be an evolutionary benefit for a species that is overproducing. To help save us from our own over population of the planet the gays and lesbians may be the products of beneficial genes. So, your argument, from a "scientific" evolutionary point of view has failed to take this important point into account. Those who keep recklessly reproducing may be the perversions of natural biological laws, ever think about that?
- mangueken
November 19, 2008 4:30PM
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Marriage for the same sex is a contradiction
How can two gay individuals celebrate marriage? The purpose of entering into a marriage contract in the eyes of Christians is for a man and woman to give themselves to one another--freely, totally, faithfully and fruitfully (fruitful being that children may bare forth). God wanted to make this free, total, faithful and fruitful love so evident, so real to us, that he clearly stamped it into our bodies as male and female--when we come together in the sexual union (intercourse), it is a reminder that we are called to a total self-giving, nuptial love for one another. This is what marriage is. Lawyers will never redefine this in the eyes of the faithful (no matter what changes to civil law they might make). Next, marriage is a sacrament. A sacrament is defined by newadvent.org as "an outward sign of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification." The substance of the "sacrament of marriage" or the "sanctity of marriage" i.e. the word "marriage" itself, occurs only in the religious context. Those "religions" out there who recognize homosexual unions and call it "marriage," are in the eyes of their Christian brothers and sisters, illegitimately and falsely interpreting the sacrament of marriage. And it is not me or other people out there who define what the sacrament of marriage is; man does not have this authority. It was Christ who defined marriage in holy scripture and it is from His authority that we draw our definition. There are several scripture passages to site. In Ephesians 5:22 for example: "Let women be subject to their husbands, as the Lord: because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church. He is the savior of his body. Therefore as the Church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the Church..." This passage defines marriage as a call for men and women to come together in marriage, to serve Christ, to serve each other, their family, and the community.
What I am saying is that the union of same sexes cannot fulfill the sacramental definition of marriage, and hence the argument misses the mark. It is ultimately an improper understanding of sacramental marriage. The effort for "gay marriage" is really an effort to seek legitimacy. Any attempt to do so is invalid in the eyes of Christians (and I am sure other faiths...Islam, Judaism etc) who properly understand the sacrament of marriage. So it doesn't matter if the lawyer says it's legal. No matter how much homosexuals want their relationships recognized and validated through the sacrament of marriage, it will never happen. Yet despite this, we love our homosexual brothers and sisters very much, we simply do not condone their sexual relationships outside of marriage (the same goes for heterosexual sexual relationships outside of marriage). This is not a form of discrimination, it is a matter of affirming a decision to live the life we are ALL called to live by Christ--one of chastity (a virtue which excludes or moderates the indulgence in the sexual appetite) and purity (not confusing lust for love). Only in this way will we find true fulfillment in life, as we discover the beauty and purpose of our human dignity--the call to live a life of free, total, faithful and fruitful love. This selfless love is pure and free of lust. We do not use an individual merely for our sexual gratification, we come to see a person for who they are! Marriage between a man and a woman is a reminder, an icon if you will, of this total self giving love. This is why we fight to keep people out there from deconstructing the definition of this sacred institution. If you are interested in finding out more about this "Theology of the Body" check out Pope John Paul's teachings on the theology of the body, explained by Christopher West ( http://www.tobinstitute.org /). It is the most profound, uplifting and eye opening material I have ever studied. It has changed my life and how I view others.
- wdpauli
October 12, 2008 10:24AM
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Great job of falling into the religious dogma trap!!!
We're talking about civil marriage here, not sacramental or religious marriage. If your religion doesn't want to honor a same-sex union, fine, but at the same time, whatever happened to separation of church and state?!?!?!?
- bagpiper2005
October 14, 2008 9:21PM
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Good Job
I like your explanation of marriage. I believe you are right. It is so sad that people exchange the truth for a lie. People who believe in gay marriage set a trap for themselves. All who believe in Christ have nothing to loose.
- Tamara
October 16, 2008 8:14AM
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Jesus said what about marriage?
I think you are mistaken about gay marriage, Jesus never said anything about it. What we read in the bible are what they think Jesus said and even they don't agree about many things in relation to Jesus, so not a good arguing point.
However, the bible is clear that it is anti homosexual, so your right among "believers" and the "faithful", most likely your mind won't be changed to accept gay marriage.
This means that you, your fellow church friends and the church itself should stay out of what is really a secular question on discrimination. Since, before we ever get the proof of whether or not heaven exists, marriage has many secular implications. Peoples taxes, property rights, health and death issues, all fall into the realm of secular legislation and as such, our government is expected to treat all people equally. This puts your feelings and faith second but it is the right thing to do.
- mangueken
November 20, 2008 4:02PM
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It is either right or wrong?
To Michelle:
God is the one that created people (whether they want to deny his existence or not) therefore everyone has some measure of good in them and also a conscience. So people who chose to practice homosexuality or follow other gods are only searing their conscience. Nature itself testifies that God exist, for instance observe the change in seasons no human being is smart enough to invent that. Not even animals practice such depravity as some humans. Remember sin came into the world because of Mankind.
I am a Christian and I refuse to agree with three quarters of the people saying it is right when God find that lifestyle detestable. Any Christian who tells you or anybody else that practicing homosexuality is O.K with God he/she in their own sweet way is telling you to go hell and the spirit of truth is not them. Don't be deceived the devil is a roaring lion seeking who he may devour. The Bible said I present before you life or death choose life. The life you live here on earth will determine where you spend eternity it is either heaven or hell. Jesus is your savior while you are on earth and he is your judge once your spirit leaves your body especially if you are not a Born again Believer filled with the Holy Spirit. A day will come when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. There is only one God.
You may not like what I have to say, that is O.K the truth alone is controversial.
- Tamara
October 12, 2008 10:48AM
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Gods have nothing to do with same sex marriage
If you study history, it is crystal clear that people have universally labeled things they could not comprehend as god. Mankind has created thousands of gods in its image during the 100,000 years that humans have existed in our 4.7 billion year old earth and 13.7 billion year old universe.
As we learn more about all aspects of the universe and the evolution of biological life in it, the gods we created keep getting smaller and smaller. At this point, we can explain pretty much everything without invoking a sky daddy.
It is way more intellectual honest to say that "this is something we don't know yet but we are looking into it" than to say that because we don't understand something that it must be "god did it".
Again if you study history, you can only come to the conclusion that we are all 99.999% atheists. Most people only believe in one of the thousands of gods we have invented. Some go one god further and become 100% atheists.
Now then, any argument against same sex marriage that makes reference to any of the gods we have invented is not an argument at all.
Laws made by the state should not rely on such fake arguments. The state should use science base its decisions on evidence.
In contrast, faith is belief in something not based on any evidence. Churches of course are welcome to use their version of god any time and make their decision based of faith.
It is, however, dishonest to put faith and truth in the same sentence. Only evidence and truth belong together.
Separation of church and state means freedom OF and FROM religion.
People using their god argument against same sex marriage, are welcome to use it within their church but join the 21st century and let the state make decisions that do not discriminate anyone.
We have a supreme court for a reason: to prevent any majority from discriminating against a minority.
Be happy within your faith and let other be happy within theirs or be happy without any faith.
- gma
October 29, 2008 1:23PM
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Let's be consistent with the separation of church and state
The US is one of the few countries with a constitutional separation of church and state.
Within such a system, marriage should only be defined by the state and 2 people (same or different sex) should go to city hall to get married. Priest should not be able to perform legal marriages.
Only after a couple is legally married, should they have the option of going to a church of their choice to celebrate their marriage within the rituals of that church with their church community.
Because of separation between church and state, churches have no say in how the state defines marriage but in pure symmetry, the state can not require churches to organize religious celebrations if they do not want to.
Same sex marriage was legalized in the Netherlands in 2001, Belgium in 2003, Massachusetts in 2004, Spain and Canada in 2005, South Africa in 2006, California and Connecticut in 2008 and will be in Norway in 2009 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage ).
The sky has not fallen, heterosexual marriages have not disappeared and divorces have not exploded, these countries have not gone up in smoke, ... In fact, except for these happily married same sex couples, nothing has changed.
So, don't be afraid of your own shadow and support same sex marriage.
Society has to continue to eliminate any form of discrimination. We did abolish slavery, gave women the right to vote, allowed mixed race marriage, ... This is one more thing that makes the world a better place.
- gma
October 29, 2008 12:49PM
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Marriage should not be a State issue but a private one
Marriage between gays and not-gays should not be an issue of the State - then marriage becomes a private matter...and people can do what they want. That is the mistake society has made....rather than ask if gays should be married - we should ask should the State regulate marriages? If we were to end state regulation on marriage - then gays and the not so gays can marry however they way. Heck even a gay guy and a straight girl could marry- think of all the possibilities!
- selfish November 21, 2008 4:51PM
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Love is love.
Lets begin with this..love is a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person, a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection. Now a question..if a woman has the right to love a man, why cant a woman love a woman or a man love a man? Love is love and it has no gender. You cant help who you love. Who is anyone in this world to say who someone else can fall in love with? People say that being gay is choice. Well, heres another question..do you wake up in the morning and say "hey, I think I'm going to be straight today"? I don't think so. You are not born straight or gay. You are born asexual. You have no sexual orientation. As you grow and develop you become attracted to things and for some its the opposite sex and for others its the same sex. Gays are as normal as straights or anything else in this world. Besides, who are any of us to say what NORMAL is? I've been on several websites about this gay marriage thing and most of them argued that it wouldnt be right in the eyes of "god". Now, I dont believe in god, but if there is in fact a god than why would he have made gays if he wouldnt approve of them? It just doesnt make any sense. Other websites have tried arguing that gays are the reason for AIDS and STDS. This is not true. If you search for the answer to the quesion "where did AIDS orginate from?" you would find several different answers, but none would say anything about gays. People are trying their hardest to prove that homosexuality should not be allowed by throwing false information around and that will get you no where. Another thing that people are trying say is that gay parents will raise gay children. This isn't true either. This goes back to the asexual thing. If you're going to be gay you are going to be gay. It doesn't matter who raises you or what your religion is or anything that you have any control over. I know a gay couple bothwho has two daughters of which are straight. So that is proof that that suggestion is indeed false. And as for the statements saying that gay marriages are unatural because in "traditional" marriages the man and woman can have children, there are plenty of straight couples out there that are popping out children left and right! It doesn't matter how many gays there are because there will always be straight couples and there will always be more children being born. And as for gays, there are plenty of ways for them to also have children. So lets put that arguement to a rest, please! Gays deserve the same rights as straights. Gays are no different than straights. They wake up every morning and they have a life. The only thing thats different about them is they love someone of the same sex rather than the opposite. There is absolutely no reason why a gay couple should not be able to get married and have the same rights as a straight couple.
- RissiaBaby
November 23, 2008 9:24AM
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Get marraige out of government
Government should not determine or exercise legal supervision over marriage.
I favor a domestic civil contract for all people who choose to live together. You get married in your church and file a domestic civil contract with the government. The contract would provide you the rights to kinship, survivorship, joint ownership, insurance privileges (and all of the other some 4000 rights that only married people can now claim). And, for what it is worth, this would cover other cases such as a son taking care of his aging stepmother.
Would that not solve this insane problem?
No. Some other stupid thing would come up where gays would be denied their rights.
We will never have equal rights until all people share those rights. I am not gay. But I will stand with them until they share equal rights under the law.
Michelle
- litebkt December 10, 2008 8:51AM
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What happened to separation of church and state?
There is a very good reason the constitution separates church and state. One, because our country has the freedom of religion and making laws based on religion is unethical and unfair to the people who don't believe whatever that religion may entail. Two, because religion is blind. Religion is based on faith and needs neither reason nor logic. Many people say that a person that CHOOSES to live an "alternative" lifestyle is CHOOSING to forgo the benefits of a marriage. No one chooses to be a homosexual. Some people are born white, some people are born black, some people are born straight, some people are born asian, some people are BORN gay. Anyone that still thinks it's a choice ask yourself this, Are you physically attracted to the same sex and you just CHOOSE to ignore it? If so, I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you but you are homosexual. Anyone that says that its not based on religion it is the fact that the constitution says marriage is between a man and a woman think of what it said before the civil rights movement. Marriage used to be allowed to one WHITE man and one woman. Does it mean that that was right? Why not go further? Why not make it one white christian man between the ages of 18-25 and one woman? Anyone that doesn't fit into that category can have a civil union.
- DrobUA
December 22, 2008 10:28PM
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Why is it...
when ever anyoine is talking about me or my civil right there's always an opposing viewpoint. On the Today show when discussing Martin Luther Kings birthday no one says " and now lets here an opposing view from the KKK".
- mikey683
January 17, 2009 2:50AM
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Separation of Church and State? Really.
No matter how one looks at this question, the responses all come down to a clash of moral and religious viewpoints, or lack thereof. True, separation of church and state is said to be in effect, but has religion ever been truly separate from government? I don't think it has, or is even possible honestly, because people will always bring their religious and non-religious and ethical ideas to the table on highly controversial issues such as this one. And if they did not, we would truly live in a country that is even more closed minded and one-dimensional than many may claim it to be. If people truly kept their religious beliefs out of it, then we would be living under a much more stifling government, not a more open and tolerant one.
- boyswannafight2010
January 25, 2009 4:03PM
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Yes, Unnatural.
Not all those who oppose gay marriage HATE gays, as so many commenters have been instigating. Many seem to be focusing on the "love is love" idea, which sounds fine, but there is always the rebuttal that this particular kind of love is "unnatural." I have to say that I agree, gay marriage is unnatural. Many have posed the question, "what is natural?" Given, it is now popular and sometimes very necessary in society to make use of "unnatural" processes (i.e radiation and chemotherapy for cancer), as long as they have the potential for positive results. However, in the case of gay marriage, I believe that anatomy alone is sufficient proof of how a man and a woman are the only intended course, religious standpoints aside, and how anything else is not only impossible, but indeed unnatural.
- boyswannafight2010
January 25, 2009 4:03PM
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One Clear-Cut Answer
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22)
Therefore, God also gave them up to uncleanliness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deciet, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backs-biters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgement of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. (Romans 1:24-32)
I understand that I will get a lot of flack for this, but I'm just offering some very clear-cut answers to this question. I didn't write it, but it comes from an extremely reliable Source, and I believe it.
- boyswannafight2010
January 25, 2009 5:31PM
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Lie with vs. Marry
Doesn't say anything in there about marriage.
And once again, women are off the hook. Lesbians seem to be fine with those passages.
- quantummechanik
June 8, 2009 1:15AM
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A Biblical View
Well, I am certainly glad I'm not in Canada, but I am inclined to my view completely agreeing with the following verse (which I don't intend to offend anyone with, it is just my belief and therefore you need to tolerate it too, just as I suppose I will have to if you disagree)....the verses are 1 Corinthians 6:9-11: "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, NOR HOMOSEXUALS, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such WERE some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but yiou were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." thus even from these verses you can see that homosexuality IS a choice if there were indeed some who practiced it and then turned from it after obeying the gospel. It doesn't matter what I believe, it doesn't matter what you believe this verse means or says, it matters what it DOES say, and that my friends is quite obvious, homosexuality is wrong.
- eJones
January 25, 2009 9:13PM
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Homosexuals in the Bible???
How can the word "homosexual" be in the bible when it was only coined about 80 years ago?
- batymahn
May 21, 2009 10:59AM
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Sodom and Gomorrah
Well, that is how it is translated in the bible today...and the word is really unnecessary...
Homosexuals have been around for a long time....go back to Genesis 19:4-7...and the rest of the story is good as well, it shows how God thinks of gays regardless of whether they call themselves married or not doesn't matter to him
Here, i'll quote the two verses here for you from my New American Standard version bible
4-Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; 5- and they called to Lot and said to him "where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring then out to us that we may have relations with them.: 6-But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, 7-and said, "Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly."
Also, if you want homosexuality clearly spoken of in the New Testament go to Romans 1:18-32 most specifically verses 26 and 27, but the rest helps you to understand the context....
Go ahead and read those and then tell me what you think, and if you have more questions I am willing to help you understand...
- eJones
May 25, 2009 10:39PM
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Define some of these other words
I mean, this reads to me like anyone who's an alcoholic doesn't go to heaven. No one who's covetous goes to heaven. Is that the line from you guys?
- quantummechanik
June 8, 2009 1:17AM
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What about the children?
Man and man were not made to have children together and neither were women and women. Therefore I do not believe the gay marriage should be legalized because then gay parents would be able to adopt children and I do not think that a child can be raised up properly without both a mom that is a woman, and a dad that is a man. That child would suffer from bullying by other children and eventually they might question their own sexuality, and I don’t think that their parents gay sexuality should make a negative influence on their child.
- cjobeth10
February 5, 2009 9:17AM
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Pointing the finger the wrong way.
That's your opinion.
Many studies have found that same-sex parentage has no bearing on a child's self-esteem or sexuality.
Furthermore, as David E. Seidelson (1966, Catholic University Law Review) pointed out (in regards to miscegenation statutes): "Suppose, however, the social hostility aroused by a racially mixed marriage is sufficiently great to threaten peace and good order. Is there not, then, sufficient justification for state action? By all means. However, appropriate state action should consist of enforcement of existing laws aimed at maintaining tranquility and, if necessary, additional laws imposing sanctions upon those who would threaten or actually commit harmful or disorderly acts as a result of a racially mixed marriage. Statutory prohibition of such marriages as a mode of preserving tranquility makes no more sense than (and, bearing in mind the “fundamental right” of marriage, even less sense than) statutory prohibition of bow ties and mustaches."
In other words, it is the children who would bully other children of same-sex parents who should be punished. Not the same-sex parents.
I would direct you to studies: Psychosocial Adjustment, School Outcomes, and Romantic Relationships of Adolescents With Same-Sex Parents. Jennifer L. Wainright, Stephen T. Russell, and Charlotte J. Patterson. Child Development, 2004, Volume 75, Number 6, Pages 1886-1898.
Patterson, C.J. (2000). Family relationships of lesbians and gay men. Journal of Marriage and the Family, 62, 1052 – 1069.
Huggins (1989). A comparative study of self-esteem of adolescent children of divorced lesbian mothers and divorced heterosexual mothers. In F.W. Bozett (Ed.), Homosexuality and the family (pp. 123-35). New York: Harrington Park Press.
O'Connor, A. (1993). Voices from the heart: The developmental impact of a mother's lesbianism on her adolescent children. Smith College Studies in Social Work, 63, 281-299.
Gershon, Tschann, and Jemerin (1999). Stigmatization, self-esteem, and coping among the adolescent children of lesbian mothers. Journal of Adolescent Health, 24, 437-445.
Golombok et. al.: Children in lesbian and single-parent households: Psychosocial and psychiatric appraisal. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 24, 551-572.
- QuinceyQuick
February 6, 2009 11:40AM
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No
Being gay alone is wrong, so to become united in marriage with someone of the same sex is wrong. According to my religious beliefs I beleive that people who are married should have a family and reproduce. This is only possible if a man and a woman are married, so I believe that same sex marriage should not be allowed.
- kumquat
February 6, 2009 1:04PM
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Your argument doesn't follow...
Your views that homosexuality is immoral does not translate to whether or not same-sex marriages are allowed.
As the courts recognized in State v. Baxley:
"In 1976, for example, the Protestant Episcopal Church issued the following resolution:
“Resolved, that it is the sense of this General Convention that homosexual persons are children of God, who have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the Church.
“This General Convention expresses its conviction that homosexual persons are entitled to equal protection of the law with all other citizens, and calls upon our society to see such protection provided in actuality.
“In 1982, the General Convention of the Episcopal Church reaffirmed its position that “homosexual persons are children of God and are entitled to full civil rights.”
The American Friends Service Committee, Unitarian Universalist Association, United Methodist Church, American Lutheran Church, and other churches have held this same belief (Cases and Materials on Sexual Orientation and the Law. 2nd ed. Ed. William B. Rubenstein. 1997. West Publishing Co. St. Paul.“Amici Curiae Brief of Religious Organizations and Leaders.” State v. Baxley.). They all think that homosexuality might be immoral, yet they also believe that homosexuals should be afforded the same rights.
So ... what was your argument again?
- QuinceyQuick
February 6, 2009 2:05PM
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Reply
Oftentimes when discussing the issue of homosexuality, a religious argument is brought up. Basically saying that homosexuality is a sin and is condemned by the bible. Certainly, if you hold these beliefs you are fully within your right to express them and to practice them. I am not here to argue whether or not the bible does indeed condemn homosexuality. However, even if the bible does condemn sexuality I don't see the connection between that and laws allowing same-sex marriage. Since when has our country been governed by religion. Our government MUST be seperate from religion. Whatever you think about homosexuality is your belief and can not be forced upon others. Laws that outlaw same-sex marriage are doing just that and in turn violating the very freedom that this country loves so dearly.
P.S Also, I believe families and marriage can function without procreation. There are many mna-woman couples who don't have children for any number of reasons. Whether they are sterile or just can't afford children or simply are happy without children, I don't think they are doing anything wrong and wonder if you would be for outlawing these marriages with your argument that, "people who are married should have a family and reproduce."
- EvanD
February 8, 2009 2:58PM
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According to my religious beliefs
I'm supposed to kill witches. Should the law respect that particular verse? Does a law preventing me from killing witches infringe on my right to practice religion ?
- quantummechanik
June 8, 2009 1:19AM
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Religous Argument
Oftentimes, when discussing this issue, religion is brought up. Basically, the argument is that homosexulaity is a sin and marriage should be between a man and a women. I'm not here to debate whether it is or isn't a sin. If your beliefs dictate that it is wrong you are fully within your right to not be gay and to express your opinion. However, concerning laws on this subject, since when has religion ran our country? Our government must be seperate from our religous institutions. I'm not positive, but the way I see our country is as a pretty free place. Is it not? I believe laws against same-sex marriage violate that most basic freedom of choice that we so love here in America.
- EvanD
February 8, 2009 2:39PM
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What about equality?
The United States takes pride in being considered the "melting pot" where all are accepted for who they are and what they believe in, yet there is such a heated debate over whether same sex couples should be allowed to get married. What happened to the melting pot idea, the idea that we are all equal? Can society really call itself tolerant if it can deny such a right to citizens whose sexual preference may be different from the majority? It is a fallacy to assume that same sex marriage will somehow delude the general population into thinking that marriage is pointless and having children without getting married. The fact is that nothing would change between a married man and woman were same sex couples allowed to marry. Their bond would remain exactly the same. It is sheerly biased to believe that one's own sexual preference is "right". For society to progress, everyone regardless of skin color, religious views, or sexual preferences must be accepted. Such things do not, in any way, change the essence of a person.
- me58
February 8, 2009 4:25PM
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Can we stop with the circular arguements and get some substance?
Scanning the above comments, all I see is religious dogma and circular or undeveloped arguments.
Religious beliefs, scriptures, "God's word," are not arguments. By using scripture as the only source of proof for the stance against same sex marriage, one falsely gives authority to the Bible and to god. I'm not here to argue about the authority of god in general; I'm not here to argue his existence of say whether or not I agree with his teachings. I'm simply saying that in this argument, god's authority cannot prevail. There is a separation of church and state and one must acknowledge this and find another way to defend this opinion against same-sex marriage.
Another argument I've noticed is that "being gay is wrong," or simply that gay marriage is wrong. Arguments like this tend to either stay undeveloped - ending there and not providing anything other than an opinion, not fact - or they become circular arguments - "It is wrong because it is unnatural...."
(comment continued below)
- Zeusthewoman
February 8, 2009 9:04PM
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(continued from above)
Using terms such as "wrong" and "unnatural" does not develop an argument. These terms are used in a definite way when in fact they are indefinite. Who is to say what is wrong and how do we know what is unnatural. There are studies that say homosexuality is natural. So if one says that it is wrong because it is unnatural they might be wrong. On the other hand linking homosexuality to same sex marriage may seem like an acceptable leap but as someone else proved in a comment before it is a false analogy. Episcopalian churches are known to be advocates of gay rights - including gay marriage- although they do not think homosexuality is necessarily "right."
It is easy to use faith as a crutch to an argument against something; it is also easy to manipulate words to form an argument as well. I would like to see an argument against same-sex marriage that does not rely on these methods and uses logic and proof as the foundation, instead.
- Zeusthewoman
February 8, 2009 9:17PM
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And I understand what your saying...
While I do not agree with some of the things you are saying, I do see what your saying about having an argument with something to back it up. What I have also noticed is that people who do agree with same sex marrige do not have their own arguement a lot of the time. The just restate the one that is presented and say that their argument is wrong. But I would like to know what side you are on, and what your argument is?
- cjobeth10
February 11, 2009 9:26AM
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I believe in same-sex marriage.
I believe same-sex marriages should be legal. I believe that the arguments against it are poor and are based on personal beliefs rather than logic.
1) Denying gays and lesbians the right to marry is unconstitutional. It discriminated on the basis of sex. It also denies them of the many benefits of civil marriage such as: to call out of work to take care of a sick partner or partner's child, to receive social security continuation after a partner dies, file joint tax returns, etc. If two people are in a committed, monogamous relationship they should be able to get married and fulfill their promises to each other.
2) Some say that they are against gay marriage because the definition of marriage is "an institution between one man and one woman." But WHO says what marriage is to be defined by? Their argument basically stops there because there is nothing else to add to it. It is word manipulation because definitions are never set in stone. They develop over the years as does language in general. Other words are given multiple meanings and connotations yet we seem to be stuck with just ONE for marriage. Tradition seems to be the only thing that keeps this definition from changing and in the past tradition has lost. Just look at slavery and the treatment of women.
3) "Marriage is for reproduction." What about infertile couples? A post menopausal mother or a impotent father cannot reproduce. Are they not allowed to marry? Actually, they are. So how is this a valid argument?
4) Same-sex couples do not provide the best environment to raise children in. But heterosexual couples ALWAYS do? What about the rapists, child molesters, murderers, alcoholics, and other harmful personalities are free to marry and procreate and raise children all they want. Yes, there are organizations that help children in those situations but do they get to all of them? And isn't the child already affected negatively from the experience? Gay couples can raise children just as well as straight couples can. The difference is that gay couples are looked down on and that can affect the children and it does. If homosexuals were treated equally then what differences would there be? And would they -really- be significant and worthy of being mentioned in an argument?
5) Same-sex relationships are immoral. Says who? Give me valid, unbiased sources and I will acknowledge it and actually have an argument. I will not argue over faith based arguments or personal beliefs.
6) Same-sex marriages threaten the institution of marriage. This to be sounds contradictory. By allowing gays to marry we eliminate marriages that some of them would enter with people they do not love and are not fully attracted to. Gay marriages do not threaten the institution of marriage. If anything they simply strengthen it. Divorce, if anything, is what threatens it.
7) Same-sex marriages are untested social experiments. This is a very narrow-minded argument because it implies that nowhere in the world have there been same sex marriages, while also degrading the relationships of same-sex couples. Calling someone's relationship and love "an experiment" is less of an argument than a personal attack. And same-sex marriages have been "tested" and successful in countries such as: Canada, Belgium, Denmark, Spain, etc. It doesn't seem to pose a problem there so why would it in America?
To me these arguments are all excuses for the real reasons people oppose gay marriage. The reason I say this is because in each argument there is a flaw or contradictions. It is easy for people to dismiss something they find repulsive, unnatural, or that makes them uncomfortable, but that doesn't make it okay to deny a group of people the right to be married.
- Zeusthewoman
February 11, 2009 5:17PM
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Yes
I believe that same sex couples should be able to get married. When people are in love, they should be able to get married, regardless of their sexual orientation. Same sex couples should be treated the same as straight couples, and should have the same rights as straight people. Just because they like someone of the same sex doesn't mean they're any different from people who are straight.
- Kelsey R February 11, 2009 11:55AM
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words matter
I see some of you are twisting the words and making personal attacks, again. This is the usual fare when you can not make your point through logic. Marraige is plain and simple the joining of a man and woman, period. If you must pervers the meaning of a word to make it fit "your'e" definition then it is indeeed a contrived definition. If same sex couples want to live together in wedded bless, let them enjoy their civil unions, this describes it very well lietearly and legally. But convulting the term marraige to suit "well" meaning otherwise intelligent people is sheer incompetence.
- the car man msncom
March 1, 2009 10:22AM
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Meanings Matter
Let me start with a simple question. -Why- is marriage between a man and a woman? Or, more openly, why was marriage defined as between a man and a woman?
- QuinceyQuick
March 1, 2009 10:52AM
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Who's Right is right?
Though I feel a completely neutral standing when it comes to questions of sexual orientation (meaning that I view homosexuality as neither right nor wrong), I feel that it should not be allowed to have marriage for same sex couples.
Marriage is defined as a religious institution. Now, should the individuals be wishing to marry under a religion that feels that their union is acceptable, then their marriage is acceptable. However, should the individuals be trying to be married under a religion such as Islam, Christianity, or any other religion that does not approve of their act, it is violating the rights of that religion to have the government force such a thing to occur. They (the individuals) had willingly agreed to joining the religion, with its preset beliefs and ethics. The government is not in a place to violate their rights.
Do I think that same sex marriage is wrong? No. Do I think that it is wrong to ignore the already given rights of a religion, violating them in order for a person's choice (what religion they belong to) to be kept unchanged? Yes.
- ckidwell7098
March 3, 2009 4:11PM
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Religion or Secularism?
"Marriage is defined as a religious institution."
Wrong. Wrong, you're already wrong.
Nobody is arguing about whether or not churches should sanction same-sex marriages. The point in question is civil (secular) marriages. Religion is absolutely irrelevant when we're talking about secular law.
"Do I think that it is wrong to ignore the already given rights of a religion, violating them in order for a person's choice (what religion they belong to) to be kept unchanged? Yes."
How about the Buddhists and the Shinto and the Hindu who don't oppose same-sex marriages? As a Shinto, I would be offended if my First Amendment rights were abridged solely on the basis of somebody else's First Amendment rights being upheld. Is it right that my Shinto beliefs be put down for somebody else's Christian beliefs?
To clarify, same-sex couples do not and should not request religious institutions to sanction their marriages. They are and should be appealing to the government to sanction their marriages.
- QuinceyQuick
March 4, 2009 1:02AM
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Shouldn't both be present?
Now, though the pure, clean cut definition of marriage may say that the state or government recognizes their union (which I see no faults with), actual marriage ceremonies are performed for enjoyment and religious sake, in order for their religion to recognize their union. So, is marriage a secular thing? Yes, if the individuals wish to have it be solely the state that recognizes them.
I feel that we are arguing for roughly the same thing. I am not saying that the state should not recognize them, and I am not saying that the Hindu faith shouldn't as well. I am saying that if a group does not wish to recognize them, already firmly holds the belief that their act is "wrong", it is violating their [the religion's] rights to force recognition.
"To clarify, same-sex couples do not and should not request religious institutions to sanction their marriages. They are and should be appealing to the government to sanction their marriages."
Not fully true. If a same sex couple wishes to have a religious ceremony, then they have every right to do so, if the religion is not being forced to change due to their [individual's] beliefs.
"Nobody is arguing about whether or not churches should sanction same-sex marriages."
The topic header chose to generalize marriage and not to restrict this argument. I felt that it was fair for me to argue it.
I hope that might better clarify my point and argument and nullify some "Wrong. Wrong, you're already wrong" comments.
- ckidwell7098
March 4, 2009 4:06PM
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Now you've confused me.
How, exactly, does this tie in to your believing that same-sex marriages should -not- be legalized? (I'm saying this because it says that you're on the "No" side of the argument.)
- QuinceyQuick
March 4, 2009 10:28PM
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Only "Yes" and "No" are present.
There is no "Same sex couples should have the state and federal government recognize their union, but if their current religion disapproves of the union, then they [the faith] should not be forced by law to recognize the union [hold a religious ceremony]" button. I have no problems with same sex marriage, provided it doesn't infringe on other's rights.
- ckidwell7098
March 5, 2009 8:28AM
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You're right
The question should have been worded, "Should CIVIL marriage for same-gender couples be legal?" I agree that no religious organization should ever be forced to dispense ANY sacrament or blessing to ANYONE, including the sacramental or religious blessing of a union between ANY two people. The question under discussion is and should be one of CIVIL rights accorded to citizens and their partners as members of a society.
- Babaroni
March 6, 2009 4:20PM
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As a christian and (suffering) from homosexuality...
I believe that gay marriage is wrong & should not be legal.
as ejones said...
1 Corinthians 6:9-11: "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, NOR HOMOSEXUALS, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such WERE some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but yiou were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."
- esjagjoe
March 24, 2009 1:09PM
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Church or State?
I understand that you believe gay marriage is wrong, but I don't understand how you believe it should not be legal. Why is the state compelled to follow your ideas on gay marriage as opposed to some other religion 's?
- QuinceyQuick
March 25, 2009 12:35AM
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Argument from Outrage?
I see it everywhere..."There's a storm coming, etc." Though my views are slightly different from allowing me to fully support gay marriage, I often ask myself, "What if we could actually pin down the premises that oppose gay marriage." The problem is that most of the opponents seem to truly resent the fact that gay marriage is even being entertained, their arguments are often too flurried with emotion to find any kind of structure. How could you determine if their argument is valid when there is no structure? If validity cannot be established, what use is arguing about individual premises?
If I had nothing better to do with my time, I would devote it to a compendium of premises and write a program to show me all possible permutations for the given argument. Then, I would evaluate each argument with its given permutation of premises. If I could find a valid argument, other than my own personal convictions, I would be happy to publish it. Figuring out whether the premises are true is up to the masses. What? It works in politics !
My argument is this: a marriage can be termed in philosophical terms as "name-only." This means that it has no value other than what is assigned to it by individuals within society . The value of a dollar bill works in a similar, but not identical, fashion. A paper bill is only worth what someone will take in exchange for it. The point is that in other countries where the issue of "marriage" has been circumscribed by establishing civil union under the same binding laws, the movement was met with much less resistance.
You may ask,"What is the difference if a man and woman wish to be wed versus two homosexuals?" The answer is simple: in one case you have a man and woman, a culturally established phenomenon and in the other you have two homosexuals, which by the conventions of culture are marginalized. This margin of which I speak is based in the fact of gay not being the majority of members of society. People have a tendency toward groupthink. This has been established in psychology at least since the Bay of Pigs Invasion. Human tendency is to look away from the unpleasant. But, based on allowing such human tendencies one might create a law that bans the unintelligent or unattractive from marrying.
If the citizens of this country were to elect to do so, would the unintelligent or unattractive cease to reproduce or to have a family? I do not think so. Therefore, what power does this little word have over the commitment one person makes to another? It is completely irrelevant. If I were seeking a civil union with my partner, I would not be concerned with the word "marriage." Should effort not be better spent establishing the rights to civil union? Would it not slip by with fewer scruples from the clergymen and politicians?
What is true equality? Is it something that can be obtained in this lifetime? We have the freedom (except in states where certain laws have yet to be repealed) to do what we want in the privacy of our homes. If I want to pool my funds with someone, I create a joint account or add them as a cardholder. If your commitment is so great, why can you not be happy with a different name? No one is going to stop you from putting on your high heels and walking down that aisle, gurl. There are so many corporations that stand behind us, at least until we brought this petty issue to the forefront. Should stubbornness divide us from those sources of hope? I for one, would not sponsor a movement I felt was motivated by selfishness and frivolity.
If gay marriage is going to make America croak, then maybe the best we can hope for is tolerance.
- rajacafe
May 6, 2009 5:43PM
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When?
put simply, yes. in this world, but especially in America we have become more accepting of race and views. but there needs to be a point that we as a human race evolve. this needs to occur and will in the next five to ten years. gay rights are facing the same problems as segregation did in the thirties and forties. if gay marriage is enacted, will there be fighting? yes. will there be riots? probably, but the goal is to let every man and woman express they're views without accusation, but acceptance. the goal on this planet is to achieve true freedom in thought, view, and actions. Sivan, you said " I believe that homosexual people will find that they are the recipients of a great deal of enmity and hostility from other people". well, first of all that's a blanket statement, not every gay man wears rainbow shirts and hits on straight men. and you also said that the source of this hostility are the gay activist organizations. granted, they may have pushed the envelope, but the anti gay organizations are just as guilty.
- VerbalAssasin07
May 13, 2009 5:06PM
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Traditional or New View on Marriage
This is referenced outside of religion , since for some strange reason every one wants to funnel the issue into religion.
"Marriage" has been written up and defined as a monogamous legally recognized union between one man and one woman. There are stipulations around this which do not allow a brother and sister for example to marry because of obvious reasons....genetic degradation in offspring. Yes! reproduction comes into the picture here.
There is no such thing as traditional or new view where marriage is considered. The components are clear and documented as neither old nor new.
"Same sex" instantly disqualifies the use of the defined term ...Marriage... being that the clearly documented components are already non applicable.
The term Union works because the title is open and non stipulated.
One solution would be to do away with the term Marriage in vital statistics and documented records and use only the term Couples Union. Include all of the benefits desired such as alimony, dowries rights, insurances, health care , tax breaks of a couple etc.
If others saw you and noted that you were male and female, it would become obvious that you are Married. If they noted you as being a same sex couple, it would be obvious that you were in a legal Couples Union.
This is the best that I can offer, but same sex does not meet the criterion of the term "married". Traditionally or Newly, either of which there is no such.
Same sex people are going to be making commitments to one another and many of these commitments will remain faithful. The same rights should be extended to those commitments on a legal and social level. Not greater not lesser.
As for religions.. There should be freedom to express why you don't agree with same sex, but you can't (force) that on same sex choice people. Freedom to choose is where the God of creation is coming from. Freedom to choose blessing or cursing; life or death, but freedom to choose is putting the responsibility upon the chooser. If you wish to precaution in a loving and winning way, your job is then done. You can't exercise force against peoples choices or choose for them.
The church has failed hugely by trying to use force instead of winning minds and hearts to upholding it's treasured values. The values upheld by people in the church often become those specific of their choice, and because (same sex issues may be upheld to their values by them) but maybe not financial integrity. They need to uphold it all before dogmatically promoting values in any direction. One disqualifies the other.
- Me2
May 20, 2009 3:33PM
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Confused
I don't understand why anyone is against gay marriage! They are people just like us and by denying them the right to marry whomever they want, we are discriminating! It is just like saying that Jewish people are bad or black people are bad! I think if you love someone, no matter what their gender, you should be allowed to love and marry them without it being looked down upon or illeagle! I really and truly don't understand why anyone would be against gay marriage.
- meroxhard
May 20, 2009 6:42PM
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My thoughts, from a gay man that was raised strictly christian
First of all I cant figure out why the heterosexual community makes such a huge deal out of this. Straight people run through marriages with no thought about the oath they take before God. If this is so important I would think you need to look at the example you providing your children and the world.
Second I cant figure out why Gay people want to be married as this is a religous ceremony and the real issue is having the same rights as the heterosexual people. A legal union will be as binding if recognized by the state or federal level.
Third I can understand the statement that Gay people want to make publicly that they are committed to each other. It is just as important to them as to the straight community.
Fourth Unless you are Gay you cannot know what it is like anymore than a Gay person does not have the same feelings as straight people. What is that old saying about walk a mile in my shoes?
Fifth I keep hearing that being Gay is a choice. What sane person would just decide to be Gay? I have known that I was Gay since a very early age. I did not want to be different from other people, but I can tell you with no doubt that it is a natural feeling, wrong or right it is not a choice.
Sixth Are children raised by a same sex couple missing something? Well of course, children should no how people relate to each other as male and female. But, I think it would be better than being raised by a single parent or in a foster home knowing they are just like a dog in a kennel. They are given what they need, but know that they are not a part of that family. Love is not a sexual issue. Everyone needs love!
It seems overall that people are people and none of us are perfect. We should be concerned about each other instead beating down people who happen to be different. Unfortunately we are a selfish species. I hope that God is as loving and forgiving as I was taught as a child.
- bhall
June 17, 2009 1:02PM
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a point
"Second I cant figure out why Gay people want to be married as this is a religous ceremony and the real issue is having the same rights as the heterosexual people. A legal union will be as binding if recognized by the state or federal level."
Marriage is not a strictly religious institution... it never has been. There are also religious homosexuals, who want to be able to get exercise their right to religious freedom by getting married (and all that entails).
It also strikes me as a little odd to create civil unions and have them be identical in every way to marriages... except that the names are different.
- MrBook
June 23, 2009 10:57PM
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This is an issue that I have struggled with
and I still can't completely decide how I personally feel. I never felt less than married in the two serious relationships I have been in, one for 6 years and one for 13 years. I suppose because they weren't permanent I don't have much faith in an oath, whether you take it before God or a group of people to witness your commitment to another. I do respect the wishes of others and I worked to promote vote against prop 8 in California because I do think there should be an opportunity for all to marry if they want. So it is more of a struggle for me than a criticism of the whole issue, thanks for your thoughts.
'
- bhall
June 23, 2009 11:39PM
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Several Relevant Issues Involved in Answering this Qauestion.
For the purpose of clarity and understanding it is necessary to have meaninfull discussions about the following; (1) Homosexuality has always existed, but in the thousands of years of history of civilization, every society has defined marriage to one man and one women, Why do we wish to change this definition in 2009? (2) Why wasn't same sex marriage an issue 200 years ago? 100 years ago? 50 years ago? 20 years ago? What has change? (3) As a civil right, should same sex marriage be a protective class/status? be given the same status as other catagories of civil rights? such as civil rights for minorities (African Americans)?, the aged (senior citizens)?, the Handicapp? Sex/Gender?, discrimiantion based on sex/gender? (4) And we need to ask the most important of questions; Does a young child/toddler NEED a Mother AND a Father in their life? If you are a same-sex couple living together and or married and or want to be married with children , I would like to ask you both the following question; Who is the Mother? Who is the Father?
- beenthere777
June 22, 2009 8:40PM
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changing purpose of marriage
"(1) Homosexuality has always existed, but in the thousands of years of history of civilization, every society has defined marriage to one man and one women, Why do we wish to change this definition in 2009?"
Actually marriage was not always between one man and one woman. It was also a vehicle for dynastic succession, property transference, and political alliance.
"(2) Why wasn't same sex marriage an issue 200 years ago? 100 years ago? 50 years ago? 20 years ago? What has change?"
In Christian and Muslim world there were (and still are, in some places) laws that would have lead to the arrest of someone who was known to be a homosexual. Thus there would have been no way to even ask this question until after those laws were rolled back. There is also the matter of public opinion, which has changed now that homosexuals can act in the open and reasonable people can clearly see that said homosexuals are no threat.
"(3) As a civil right, should same sex marriage be a protective class/status? be given the same status as other catagories of civil rights? such as civil rights for minorities (African Americans)?, the aged (senior citizens)?, the Handicapp? Sex/Gender?, discrimiantion based on sex/gender?"
Yes, homosexuals should be extended the same rights and protections granted to other minorities.
"(4) And we need to ask the most important of questions; Does a young child/toddler NEED a Mother AND a Father in their life?"
Having a mother and a father may be the ideal situation... but it is not always the most practical one. Isn't it better for a child to have a loving family, even if that family is not the 'norm', then to have no family at all?
- MrBook
June 23, 2009 10:51PM
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"reasons"
It seems like there would be no reason to ban gay marriage if it wasn't for religion . I don't understand what's so hard to follow about the separation of church and state . Gay marriage shouldn't even be a question.
- Detailsarevulgar
July 15, 2009 5:46PM
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Also
Most arguments against gay marriage don't even seem to be about marriage , they're just against the lifestyle. Regardless of marriage, homosexuality will always exist.
- Detailsarevulgar
July 15, 2009 5:48PM
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Church vs State
Getting married in a church is determined by the church so churchy people calm down on it's not gods will.
State why can't to people recieve the same rights for being together as any other Person? It's about who will care for them when they are sick or getting older.
PDA isn't welcome around me if you're straight or gay I just don't think it's respectful.
- ttut21
August 15, 2009 2:33AM
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rights of you means right for everyone. dont it
Its not a choise you are or not. The first time you fall in love did you choise between a man or a woman. If yes why did you choise a woman and not a men? It is a discussion concerning religion . If you removed the word marriage and says cohabit with same the legall benefit. the discussion is changed. The law does not distinguish between men and women. Why shut it make difference between men and men or women and women. In my country we have the gay marriage since 1 April 2001. and the gay right movement is compared with the Feminist movement. not jahova which want convert everyone
- jelle
August 19, 2009 7:14AM
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Religion doesn't follow it's own rules
On the question of religion the Nazi's had the full backing of the church when they started rounding up "undesirables" like Jews and homosexuals so they're claim of wanting to "protect" marriage is a sham. And they're claim that it will harm children is kind of hard to swallow when they protect pedophile priests. It about what it is always about, hating and attacking those who are different in any way. What happened to "Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself" isn't there in you holy book?
- Gamesman
September 18, 2009 4:54PM
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Your insecure about yourself but you let loose on homosexuals.
You always argue about your politics , races, religions etc. you say they are better than others but then you make fun of homosexuals ......... Has it ever occurred to you that they are not just different to YOU but they are normal to others? has it ever occurred to you that their marriage is just as important to them as straight marriage is important to you? The american people, as well as people all over the world need to open their eyes and realize that homosexuality is perfectly normal.
I myself am straight but i think that everybody should be able to express themselves freely without persecution.
- neilisabell
October 26, 2009 1:24PM
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Bigotry
The only reason to deny the right of marriage to anyone is bigotry pure and simple. They tried it with race and mixed race now it's gays . Some folks are just that hateful. Any other reason is lies and half-truths. def Bigot: someone obstinately and intolerantly devoted to his own beliefs, creed or party
- Gamesman
November 1, 2009 1:52PM
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One step at a time, don't shove it in peoples faces
I am really open minded and have numerous gay friends And luv em all to bits. I am open to let ANY one marry who ever they want to marry. The thing is people are living longer now, their views live on longer and change can take a while And you also get sick and tired that when someone with a bit of money /power and is GAY, They have to make a bloody point of telling you. If you want to be together, be together, No laws can keep you apart. But take it one step at a time and try not to rub people up the wrong way by trying to force it on them. Why Not do like they did in the UK (for now) And have a civil partnership. 14 smaller steps are better than taking one big one and falling
- boothybunch
November 5, 2009 8:03AM
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