The existence - or lack of - a God is one of humanity's fundamental questions. Since the first birth, the first sunrise, the first death, humans have sought to explain the world around them. The whole of human existence, in the end, comes down to this: Is there a God?
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More and more respected academics are seeing the immense flaws in the evolution argument. Problems involving irreducible complexity, the impossibility of forming proteans from amino acids without the guidance of DNA, the huge gaps in the fossil record among others are starting to be reasoned upon. Although many in the scientific community have posed counter-arguments, these often have minimal empirical evidence and are usually the result of a macrocosmic repression of the implications of these anti-evolution arguments.
Although neither I nor anyone else can easily prove the existence of a God in a tangible way, Intelligent Design is quite evident and provides a much more scientifically sound argument than the statistically improbable and flawed reasoning of the evolution argument.
Unfortunately, it is so easy to only see the evidence which is most convenient for us, thereby leading us to a divided scientific community, and thus divided society on the matter of the existence of God.
- Ralfe Poisson
July 23, 2008 11:42PM
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I disagree with you completely. Evolution is fact. The fossils prove that. Darwin proposed the theory of evolution by means of natural selection. Intelligent design is just another theory, a theory of evolution by means of intelligent design (the proponents accept change has occurred and that natural selection occurs at species level), They have failed to provide any evidence whatsoever for ID. What would be proof? Well, it would have to be a big jump in evolution, perhaps something like a fossil rabbit in Jurassic rocks along with dinosaur fossils, something showing that large and unexpected changes have occurred. One theory doesn't become true just because your incredulity makes it difficult to accept other theories. The theories you want to favour have to have some (any???) facts supporting them.
- bachfiend
September 1, 2008 6:04AM
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"One theory doesn't become true just because your incredulity makes it difficult to accept other theories. "
There is actually insufficient emperical evidence for both intelligent design as well as for evolutionary theory. I am not suggesting that intelligent design is magically correct simply because one cannot completely prove evolution. What I am saying, however, is that if you take an objective look at the research conducted by those in the scientific community who support intelligent design as well as those who support evolutionary theory, intelligent design theory makes more sense, and has fewer logical flaws than evolution.
I have studied evolutionary theory in depth at university level, and I notice that most people who respond to discussions such as this one either do not even know the basics of evolution, or have extremely limited knowledge of peer-reviewed, published research done on intelligent design, and thus make ignorant assumptions and statements regarding intelligent design.
- Ralfe Poisson September 1, 2008 7:02AM
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Yes, I do understand evolution perfectly well. I'd be interested to see what you regard as credible research on intelligent design. Wishful thinking is not a substitute for decent research. At least Darwin did make predictions which came true. Lord Kelvin (who was probably one of the pre-eminent physicists of Darwin's time) said that evolution by natural selection was impossible, because the Earth could only be 30 million years old, and there was therefore not enough time. Darwin just said that Lord Kelvin was wrong; how spectacularly wrong is shown by the current accepted age of the Earth of 4.5 billion years. Lord Kelvin was wrong because he didn't know about radioactivity (no one at the time did) which was was keeping the Earth warmer and throwing off his estimate. I have no doubt that those who don't accept evolution will be shown to be wrong for the same reason, except it will be because of deliberate ignorance rather than inadvertant. Intelligent design is just a theory. It makes no predictions. I'd be interested what your university training was, and how much actual teaching you have had of evolution or even biology. Evolution is completely compatible with religion. Francis Collins quite happily accepts (theistic) evolution, and the Catholic Chuch doesn't insist that Genesis is literally correct, equating creation with the implantatation of the soul in humans.
- bachfiend September 1, 2008 8:55PM
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Your response shows exactly the type of limited exposure to research that I previously spoke of. I do not have enough time nor space to enumerate a list of published work here, but if you are interested in broadening your knowledge, then have a look at some of the peer reviewed works mentioned at http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2640&program=CSC %20-%20Scientific%20Research%20and%20Scholarship%20-%20Science . On another point, making arbitrary assumptions about individuals in a mocking fashion on open forums such as this one is completely unnecessary and does not aid your credibility in any way. This site is about informed opinions, not people trying to be witty. I suggest reading through those articles in the link I provided and then forming an objective opinion of intelligent design instead of mistakenly referring to it as "Wishful thinking" and implying that it is not credible research.
- Ralfe Poisson September 1, 2008 9:56PM
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I apologise. I thought you were sensible and were going to give me some good references. The Discovery Institute is NOT creditable. I am well aware of the site. Many of the "peer reviewed" material are just books, which are not peer reviewed. I notice that the article that Richard Sternberg sneaked into a niche journal on classification and which was later repudiated as being sub-standard makes the list. Obviously, whatever science education you have had at university hasn't taught you critical thinking, and I would like to know what courses you have actually had?
- bachfiend September 2, 2008 3:36AM
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This argument is very interesting to me. For starters, I think people are taking things a little personally, but I'll get into it anyway. For starters, natural selection does in fact occur. That is not debatable. Genetic mutation causes variation, and that variation causes differentiated survival and reproductive abilities. It would be impossible for natural selection NOT to occur. The real debate here is the belief that natural selection is the CAUSE of human existence. What both sides fail to see is that this is not a matter of science in either case. It would be extremely difficult to definitively prove that human life actually derived from another species, and simply seeing some evidence is not definitive proof. As far as intelligent design is concerned, I am rather insulted. To pawn off religious belief as some sort of actual science is fairly outrageous, and furthermore, it serves no purpose. The issue is a matter of belief already, not a matter of science. Some find one more reasonable, others take the other. I will reiterate a previous point I made: If you actually knew which side was right about where humans came from, would it change your life at all?
- roy1167
September 4, 2008 10:39AM
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I apologize for not properly proofreading.
- roy1167 September 4, 2008 10:47AM
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roy 1167 writes "It would be extremely difficult to definitively prove that human life actually derived from another species, and simply seeing some evidence is not definitive proof." In fact, the case for our close kinship with the other apes is absurdly strong. In principle, one can doubt any factual claim, which is why the law distinguishes between any doubt whatsoever and reasonable doubt. There is no reasonable doubt about the matter. Even in the 19th Century, it was pretty clear on the basis of the visible anatomy of the higher primates that human beings were very similar to chimpanzees and gorillas; but fossil evidence was scanty. That's no longer true--the missing link hasn't been missing from some time now--but even more importantly, modern molecular biology has demonstrated how our genome matches up with that of other primates in a way that would be inexplicable were we not related.
I'm reminded of an old joke. The worried husband hires a private eye to check up on his wife. The detective reports back with bad news: "I watched your place last night. A very handsome guy showed up and they went off in a taxi to a night club where they danced cheek to cheek and had several drinks. Then they took another taxi. I could see them making out in the back seat. After they got to his place, they had another drink and started petting on the sofa. Your wife took off her dress and the guy pulled down his pants. After she was stark naked, he picked her up and carried her into the bedroom."
"And then what happened." sez the husband. "The lights went out and I couldn't see."
"Always the lingering doubt!"
- Jim Harrison September 4, 2008 11:57AM
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Consider how much of our DNA is shared by chimpanzees (about 97%). Consider cross-species transfer of viruses, bacteria, etc. whereby humans get malaria, hantavirus, dengue fever and other diseases.
That by itself is sufficient to show that "Intelligent Design" is oxymoronic. As one of my Philosophy instructors often stated: "If God created the universe, he was an incompetent engineer."
- CosmicChuck April 8, 2009 2:43AM
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Intelligent Design Your comment: More and more respected academics are seeing the immense flaws in the evolution argument. is completely untrue as far as I have seen in 37 years and I live & work with academics (they are mostly scientists) (and I am one). During this time I have met one 'scientist' (not an academic) who supported ID (tho I think he is now reconsidering). Blanket false statements like this establish lack of credibility.
- Bob Brown September 2, 2008 10:32AM
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You argue, as do many theists, that human ignorance about the development of life, the nature of life, or any other aspect of reality, constitutes proof that a god must to explain that which is otherwise unexplained. This is the worst and most desperate kind of argument.
Just because something is unexplained does NOT mean that it is inexplicable. It only means that it is NOT YET explained. Human intellectual history is nothing if not a consistent set of evidence that, given time, ANYTHING is explicable by the power of the rational human mind. Remember, the sun, moon, and the Nile river used to be considered gods because no other explanation was evident. Those gods DIED when science explained them. So it will be with the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god, as well as all others, when the light of human intellect exposes the shadows that your religions require in order to thrive.
For 5000 years the human mind has been narrowing the realm in which your gods can exist. And every day that realm gets smaller. Stop fighting it. Reject fear as the basis for fundamental beliefs, and join us to promote the light of reason and the grandeur of humanity.
- SidAirfoil September 4, 2008 5:20PM
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Ignorance is not evident? Well apparently it is because it's showing up all over your comment. :) Ok. Just a 'breaking the ice' kind of intro. Jesus Christ dealt with men/women like you very often during His time here on earth. I could in many manners reprimend you but suggesting an alternative belief for you in the 'Crishtianity' realm is obviously not what you are trying to here; therefore, we'll just let Jesus do it later. (another funn) :)
God Bless even you--
- Juanita October 1, 2008 1:53PM
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You say we are ignorant, but I think it is you. There is no evidence of god for us to be ignorant of. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that leads us to question his/her/it's existence.
You should go to school, read a few books, and start questioning life and your belief system. There's no reason to feel sorry for those of us who's minds are free from the shackles of blind faith and ignorance.
- yebegoon May 27, 2009 3:36PM
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The pro ID post at the start of this thread makes many claims about an alleged failure of science to explain things. I disagree - but let's accept it for arguments sake.
But even if all scientific knowledge (every last bit of it) were faulty, that would say nothing about the possible existence of God.
The poster then goes on to say that they can't prove the existence of God - in other words there is no evidence for the existence of god.
There follows an unsubstantiated assertion that ID is better.
As a post apparently designed to support the existence of God it seems a little unconvincing.
- Bob M September 12, 2008 2:40AM
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Very well said; my hats off to you. :)
- Juanita October 1, 2008 1:47PM
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Intelligent Design is simply Creation Science [sic], relabeled in an attempt to disguise as essentially the Book of Genesis in a feeble-minded attempt to promote Genesis as science . Philip Kitcher, in his book "Abusing Science: The Case Against Creationism," totally demolished any claim that Cretionism had to being scientific, ipso facto, the same applies to Intelligent Design. Neither of the two put forth any hypotheses that are testable for falsity (Karl Popper's Principle of Falsification). Any statement that cannot be tested for falsifiability is not scientific. At best, Intelligent Design is a pseudo-science aimed at brainwashing our children into believing absolute hogwash for truth.
- CosmicChuck April 8, 2009 2:35AM
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"Theories of, or beliefs in, a Divine source for the Universe are as ancient as humanity itself – at least." A moot point, but humanity evolved the necessary cognitive function to imagine greater powers far later than the actual first creature that could be called homo sapien.
"They constitute the longest standing range of explanations for the source of our world." And subsequently the least informed.
"they cannot explain without significant problems on the one hand" There are many things wrong with your assertion. One is that, since science doesn't understand, it must be a some wizard in the sky who just did it all randomly. Second, is that there are several theories that postulate on the occurrence of max entropy and it's succession into the condensation of the universe into a single point. At which, entropy can finally reverse, and in one explosion, create matter and energy. The universe would then be a sinusoidal wave of contractions and expansion.
- betterth July 25, 2008 9:08AM
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Why do you find it easier to believe in a supernatural creator, than creation as a natural process ?
If God made the universe, what did he make it out of ?
You cannot prove a negative. I can tell you that there is a tea cup in orbit around Alpha Centauri 4.3 light years away, and the ask you to prove me wrong. You cannot. However I would say that it is extremely unlikely.
If there is an intelligent designer he was not very bright. Blind spots in eyes, flesh eating bacteria, parasitic wasps, nice fella.
Whilst I cannot say "there is no God" I can say that the evidence, at this time, shows it to be extremely unlikely.
- Andrew Holt
August 30, 2008 6:47AM
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The Rabbi is laboring under the mistaken impression that there is a coherent concept of God that would make sense of his/her/its role in creation; and also seems to think that the universe began at some point in time, even though that is actually a misunderstanding of the Big Bang hypothesis, which most physicists do not believe was an absolute beginning, though it may have occurred as far back as we can look. For all we know, the universe is infinite in time and space.
One can define an infinite number of explanations for the world and how it came to be (assuming again that it did come to be). For example, maybe the world was created by a single bunny rabbit. On the other hand, maybe it was created by two bunny rabbits. Or three bunny rabbits... Since there are an infinite number of possible explanations, one needs to be able to cut the field down to some manageable number of options. God is not one such options at present because the philosophical contexts in which "God" is a valid concept are no longer acceptable. God made sense in terms of Plato or Aristotle's metaphysics. I doubt if the Rabbi is up to specifying a context which would make sense of the God notion.
- Jim Harrison August 31, 2008 3:25PM
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A scientist comments on Rabbi Jerrit’s 3 conditions:
1. Theories of, or beliefs in, a Divine source for the Universe constitute the longest standing range of explanations for the source of our world.
I guess that it is a basic tenet of science that this fact has no value whatsoever. Countless ideas have longest standing (e.g. the sun goes around the earth) yet are wrong.
2. Theories of, or beliefs in, a Divine source for the Universe constitute the most agreed-upon range of explanations believed by human beings – throughout history and still today.
This is a testimony to the limited education that has been available to human beings. The comment about 1. applies here, as this is simply another statement of 1.
3. Each and every other explanation for the source of our world is lacking in one fundamental area; they cannot explain without significant problems on the one hand, or an articulation that resembles one of Divinity without the label on the other hand, what existed prior to the world. The existence of a God, without beginning and without end, spatially or temporally, solves this problem.
The first sentence is true. The second is trivial, and I’m much more comfortable with the curved space-time general theory of relativity description of the universe, without beginning and without end, spatially or temporally.
Evidence
Text
The Expanded Quotable Einstein
“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details.”
Einstein is speaking of God as Nature. There are innumerable quotes (e.g. see the Isaacson biography) that show Einstein was an agnostic.
I’m getting the feeling that I’m discussing “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin”, and that is a waste of my time.
- Bob Brown September 2, 2008 10:23AM
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I am a bit disappointed in the human race. The human race as a whole has tried for centuries to X out God and any religious ideas and characteristics. I am rather embarrased of the ignorance of men. Anyways, this has to be the most silly question in history-if you're educated and have any sense of moral sense you would agree. If the world wasn't created by the Supreme Being (GOD), than how else would it have gotten here. If any one person (or organization) expect me to ever believe that Earth one day just decided to appear in space and isolate the water from land and create it's own self a moon and set the sun impeccably in it's place and everything revolve and correlate in it's proper manner every morning-day-season-year etc.,, Than they are the most foolish, silly alive. There is but one explaination of the being of Earth and that's through Jesus Chridst himself. I am not typing this to reprimand, discourage or convert but simply to make a "common sensed" point to any and all readers that come across this comment. As the literary C.S. Lewis once said, "You either believe in God or don't... " He himself gave numerous reasons as to the reason that God does exist and how He is the creator of all things living and non living; dead and alive. Just a simple point to leave you with: If God didn't create the world and everything in it, then who did? Are we seriously, as "educated" men and women suggesting that we all derive from monkeys??!! I would hope that we 'educated' people no better than this. God is, was, and is to come. God Bless every reader. :) I'm still disappointed at our ignorance though :(
- Juanita October 1, 2008 1:45PM
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How can u critizes people who take scientific proof and reason to why the world was created. Religion is ignorant. If a super natural being created the universe than how was he (God) created. Even the big bang theory gives more rational evidence than the bible. Earth being created and sustaining water and land, creating a moon, and such all have factual evidence in HOW it was done. And yes the human race has been striving to X out god, and they have been succesful. They've X'ed out many things that the church once believed. It is only a matter of time till there is nothing more to X out. Then we will see who is ignorant. I wish this so called creator, instead of hiding, would step out and show him self.
- Dying Utopia January 13, 2009 11:38AM
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Juanita,
How can you find it more likely that a super-being, who was always there, created everything out of nothing, with only one tiny planet in trillions as his only purpose and the rest as space junk. This super being, loves you if you worship him and tortures you forever if you die still asking questions. Though you may feed the poor and help the helpless - you burn if you don't believe.
If you knoew someone like this on earth, they would be either in prison or in a mental hospital.
By the way, the only time Jesus ever defined God when cornered by the apostles, he simply said "God is Love". Love creates, love lasts, love heals. Jesus never believed in a grumpy old man in the sky who fries you if you don't get on your knees and worship him.
I think Jesus would have thrown you out of the temple for your ignorance. Put God to the same test you would your husband or loved ones and see if he doesn't fail miserably.
- Edge-of-Reason
May 19, 2009 9:38AM
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"I am a bit disappointed in the human race. The human race as a whole has tried for centuries to X out God and any religious ideas and characteristics. I am rather embarrased of the ignorance of men. Anyways, this has to be the most silly question in history-if you're educated and have any sense of moral sense you would agree. If the world wasn't created by the Supreme Being (GOD), than how else would it have gotten here. If any one person (or organization) expect me to ever believe that Earth one day just decided to appear in space and isolate the water from land and create it's own self a moon and set the sun impeccably in it's place and everything revolve and correlate in it's proper manner every morning-day-season-year etc"
I really do not know where to start. This line "if you're educated" is later followed by an admittance of a complete lack of knowledge about the formation of Earth and the moon. I mean seriously, you could TiVo National Geographic for a week and have a basic understanding of all the "scientific mysteries" you mentioned. You call people who disagree ignorant when it is you who choose to subjectively ignore information and evidence. Information and evidence observed by man, not created by him.
Riddle me this. It's is a known fact that the distance between the Earth and moon is increasing by 3.8 meters a century. Eventually it will leave Earths orbit but the effects will be felt long before that. If our solar system was created by God why would he put an expiration date on it? Our Sun isn't going to last forever either mind you.
Another thing that has always bothered me is why is there so much else out there? Why would a God create so much noise in the universe when we are his main concern? In the old ideas the Earth was the center. If everything did revolve around us and we were the center of the universe (as was the idea when religions formed) then a Creator would seem like the obvious answer.
- Fenderman89 July 23, 2009 12:50AM
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Till the sun starts expanding, I think. That always kept me up at night as a child--The whole world will burn away.
I'll tell you my answer to that question, which combines my religious beliefs and my career aspirations age four. We're supposed to go there. We're supposed to go into space, to explore, to learn and to discover. Humans are supposed to spread out and see new sights, reach new horizons. When we get on a boat and sail halfway around the world, when we build submarines and underwater research labs--when we walk to a part of town we haven't been before, we're doing what we're supposed to do. That's a part of the human condition. G-d just made all that stuff so that we'd have someplace to go next. When that's all explored, I have no doubt that there'll be some other world to discover.
- quantummechanik July 23, 2009 10:34AM
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How could anyone possibly explain with definition how our world came to be when that individual wasn't there at that particular time? We do like many others before us....we read the Bible. Simple!!
- kim42 October 2, 2008 2:53AM
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Yes it is true that we were not there. But there is always something there, such as geographical evidence. No one has tried to say that they saw how the world was created. No, instead they try to prove through factual evidence that it was created. To go off a book that was created billions of years after the world created with no factual evidence besides people seeing/hearing some divine figure is rediculous
- Dying Utopia January 13, 2009 11:41AM
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I was invited to take a look at this site, and immediately spotted this particular debate, even though I'm clearly not included in it. I am a Pagan and polytheist. I'm not sure I can answer the question as stated, since "god" is posed in the discussion with such relentless singularity. But to try:
Yes: the great forces of the university manifest consciousnesses that are vast, and old and can be good friends or enemies. (Just as the small fluxes of chance, matter and energy that form humans manifest as consciousnesses.
BUT ALSO
No, the universe neither has, nor requires, a king, a boss, a chief, a judge, a dictator or an emperor.
Blessed Be
- embreis October 24, 2008 5:52AM
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"The existence of (a) God(s), without beginning and without end, spatially or temporally, solves this problem."
You are just substituting the existence of Universe with existence of (a) god(s). The current scientific view of the beginning of the current Universe is a 'big bang'. This is a "singularity", ie we do not yet know anything on the "other side" of the big bang.
Substituting with (a) god(s) only points us to question what is the beginning of god. If god is without beginning and without end, why can't we also think of the current without beginning and end - BTW, to all practical purposes, the beginning of the Universe has no implication to our current living.
- albertip December 16, 2008 3:06AM
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"You are just substituting the existence of Universe with existence of (a) god(s). The current scientific view of the beginning of the current Universe is a 'big bang'. This is a "singularity", ie we do not yet know anything on the "other side" of the big bang."
"Substituting with (a) god(s) only points us to question what is the beginning of god. If god is without beginning and without end, why can't we also think of the current without beginning and end - BTW, to all practical purposes, the beginning of the Universe has no implication to our current living."
Could not the converse of that statement be true in regards to you (that you are substituting God with the universe). Invoking God isn't the slightest bit circular, and it doesn't mean that God must require a cause. The law of casualty states that every effect (contingent being) has a cause. God is not an effect, nor is God a contingent being. The universe, on the other hand, is composed of matter, and the chief characteristic of matter is mutability (it can be changed). So therefore, the universe is contingent and requires a cause.
God on the other hand, is an immaterial being who is comprised of no parts. As such, He is irreducibly simple, and thus does not require a cause. You can't just simply plug in the "Who made X" objection to everything there is.
Your capitalization of the word "universe" strikes me as odd. It's ironic in the sense that you're essentially deifying the universe, which is nothing but an impersonal, arational, and amoral reality.
So in summary, God does not require a cause because God is not comprised of physical parts (divine simplicity), while the universe does because it manifests contingency (being made out of matter, which is mutable).
- Timothy Hsiao December 27, 2008 8:29AM
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"God on the other hand, is an immaterial being who is comprised of no parts. As such, He is irreducibly simple, and thus does not require a cause."
You might as well be saying "There is no god ."
- yebegoon May 27, 2009 3:49PM
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There are many other scientific reasons why the universe was created
- Dying Utopia January 13, 2009 10:37AM
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Simply because "other theories" do not prove the origins, is no convincing argument for God. There is simply no provable evidence that a Male, Creator Being (n.) exists!
- classyoga February 15, 2009 8:15AM
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The rabbi writes: "they cannot explain without significant problems on the one hand, or an articulation that resembles one of Divinity without the label on the other hand, what existed prior to the world. The existence of a God, without beginning and without end, spatially or temporally, solves this problem."
It DOES NOT solve the problem at all. How did a god , without beginning and without end, come to be? No one knows for sure how the universe started, but one thing that is for sure is that there is not one scrap of evidence for the existence of a supernatural being. Not one!! There is ample evidence for the non-existence of any god, because where has he, she, or it shown him-, her- or itself? Nowhere. We only have probably fictional accounts in the so-called holy books, which are full of inaccuracies and falsehoods. For example, the Bible says that the world is flat and the sun revolves around it. This is patently false. Therefore, we cannot believe anything in the Bible or the Koran for sure. So there have been no uncontested proofs of any miracles. So no evidence for anything supernatural existing.
Leon Marzillier
- Elfman April 1, 2009 3:26PM
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Then there is the principle of first cause. What created the creator. If one insists that the creator satisfies the Principle of Sufficient Reason to satisfy the argument, then I would apply the Principle of Parsimony and state that a creator is not an ontologically necessary entity. That the universe could have created itself at the moment that space-time started. Time is meaningless before the beginning of space-time.
- CosmicChuck April 8, 2009 2:24AM
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If the world is so complex and ordered that it must have been created by a devine God, then surely God must have been created by an even greater being. How else could such a devine creature exist if not created by an even greater one?
How can you accept the fact that God has always existed, yet you can't accept the fact that the universe always existed. Where did he exist before creating the universe. If God created the universe, then where does he keep it?
If God is good, all powerfull, and all knowing, yet evil exists. That proves that he either doesn not exist, or that he is not good, all knowing and all powerful, and therefore NOT devine. We are made in his image, yet we are imperfect. Therefore, God is imperfect and therefore NOT devine.
All of the religious texts were created by man, so using thems as proof is a fallacy. It's not as if the good book magically appeared. The STORY of the ten commandments is the only aspect that supposedly was drafted by God himself. He exists because I read it in a book that some man wrote a long time ago. Well there were a lot of books written a long time ago about the supposed ONE creator, and none of them are in agreement. The fact that the three major religions all worship the same God comes from the fact that all three religions came from the same screwed up part of the world that still cannot abide by the teaching of peace found in all three religions.
How can you dismiss the many Gods of the Romans, Greeks, Pagans, American Indians, etc. Why didn't God give these cultures the same teachings as the Middle East? Their religions ceased not because they were wrong or disproven. They fell by the swords of those who sought to spread their own OPINION on creation and kill those who would not convert to their will.
- eman April 22, 2009 4:36PM
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Side: No
I think we can see this by looking at previous questions which were answered by appealing to the supernatural. In response to the three components:
1) Theories of, or beliefs in, a Divine source constitute the longest standing range of explanations for phenomena like weather, disasters, and other events that have natural explanations. Looking historically it is almost certain that far, far, more people have used divinities to explain things like lightning than have used the modern scientific explanation. Even today, it is possible to find people around the world who hold similar beliefs. The mere fact that a certain kind of explanation has been popular doesn't mean that that class of explanations are good or true.
2)A similar point goes for #2. I do not see how he could possibly believe point #2 to be relevant. Theories and beliefs of a divine source for the human species likely constitute the most agreed-upon range of explanations believed by human beings, both historically and today. Regardless of what the good Rabbi's view on evolution is, he surely doesn't think that the question of whether evolution is true or not can be solved by polling people. It doesn't make any sense to try to determine if evolution is true by counting the number of people who believe it or don't believe it. Why then, would theories about the origin of the universe be any different?
3)Even if current (naturalistic) theories about the source of the universe suffer problems, this is no reason to assume that a divinity must be the answer. As I stated in #1, previously unexplainable phenomena were also explained using supernatural beings. The fact that at various points in history humans didn't have a natural explanation didn't make a supernatural explanation the correct answer. I also am curious as to how exactly God is supposed to solve the problem of existence. It only seems to raise the question of why God exists. If we assume that God simply always existed, why can't we assume that the material universe always existed (albeit likely in a rather different form prior to the big bang)? In other words, if existence requires explanation, then God's existence also requires an explanation and simply saying that God always existed answers nothing; if existence doesn't require explanation, then there is no need to appeal to God as an explanatory force at all.
- ghanastudent May 17, 2009 11:24AM
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Unless I've missed something, you've started out by saying that because humans have believed in gods for a very long time, it must be true.
Does it not matter that we've also believed in a very long list of things (ghosts, world being flat, monsters, etc) that have been proven wrong? And don't you think it a bit odd that, if popular belief in a god lends some credibility to the idea of a god, there'd have been an agreed upon god as opposed to everyone disagreeing on how many gods, who, and what there are?
How about, instead of using popular opinion as an argument, you actually argue the case for the existence of a god?
- Blue Linchpin June 3, 2009 6:49PM
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Rabbi - I don't see how you have actually justified the existence of a higher being. Your claim that it is the only argument that can provide a full explanation of how the universe came to be is inherently flawed. It doesn't explain who created the creator which results in infinite regression. That's one of the most basic problems with religion .
Ralfe - Making unsubstantiated generalisations such as "More and more respected academics are seeing the immense flaws in the evolution argument." doesn't really help much. Intelligent design uses pseudo- science to come up with a seemingly scientific explanation but all it is really saying is "that physical characteristic is too complex for me to understand so God must have designed it".
- RedDragon June 4, 2009 4:09AM
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No, really.
But also, Einstein was really not keen on being cast as a believer in a personal god . He publicly ridiculed the notion and those that took his quotes out of context. So in a way, Rabbi, you should consider yourself chastised by the SMARTEST MAN EVER!
Anyway, regarding the question. Have you checked out physics in the last century or so? I hate to be overly sarcastic, but I think the most qualified answer to you question is in that field of study; look under "big bang", maybe.
So, this is a terrible arguement for the existence of god. First, the idea that the univers HAD TO HAVE a creator can, must be applied to God, if the question is relevant at all.
Perhaps the world come from us, in the future, when we send the catalyst for the cosmos back into the past to start the big bang. I see no reason why this is less likely than any theistic explanation.
- Submariner June 10, 2009 11:32PM
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I hear so many who repeat that just because they are not well educated enough to explain evolution it doesn't exist. Many also feel that because teaching abstinance alone doesn't work women must be FORCED to bear unwanted children .
- oneoldman June 16, 2009 7:43PM
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If an anthropomorphic god created the world who created god? God was created by psychopaths to help them rule over other men. Take Moses, he killed at least one man, had two wives, told his people there was a promised land they had to get by killing other people and stealing it from them, he took all the people's gold from them so only he could use gold as an idol. George Bush used god to justify attacking a dictator the CIA helped install and murder somewhere between 60 some thousand and 1.5 million Iraqi civilians, yet he had the audacity to murder prisoners who were accused of murder and later found innocent. God never changes, it is always a schizophrenic tool used by psychopathic ego driven greedy shameless humans.
- atliberty July 9, 2009 12:20AM
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When we look in our children's eyes and see ourselves, our values, our family's best hope we KNOW that there is a God who put us here. Who gave us a reason for living. A reason for making a difference on this earth. Who can deny the existence of a higher order?
- cantupoke July 14, 2008 4:21PM
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I'm sorry, but appealing to your intuitions and your personal experiences i simply not good enough. I give myself a reason for living an a reason to make a difference. I do that with or without the existence of any higher order. Keep on believing, but don't think your belief will convince anyone else just by virtue of your own certainty.
- roy1167 September 4, 2008 10:45AM
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We have actual knowledge about how animals came to be and why they show the behaviors they do, especially in relation to reproduction. We also have apparently reliable knowledge of the mechanism of heredity. That contrasts strongly with theological arguments that depend for their rhetorical strength on appealing to the prejudices and ignorance of the Many. Indeed, the Rabbi doesn't suggest anything at all explanatory. In real explanations, one doesn't just say that something came to be with x attribute because it was produced by an agent with the same attribute. That's like arguing that green things are green because they are composed of little green things. Similarly, claiming that man is as he is because he was created by a man-like God doesn't really explain anything; and the Rabbi's reverse move of claiming that the behavior of men allows us to infer the characteristics of God is even more of a stretch.
Of course the scientific explanation for the evolution of parental behavior may be in error. On the other hand, there is at least real evidence for it; and, if it is true, it is an actual explanation instead of an exercise in question begging.
- Jim Harrison August 31, 2008 3:38PM
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" Assuming that we are correct that we humans are the most complex life-forms created, it is reasonable to assume that the world’s Source is capable of at least as much complexity as we reflect."
If you really believed in god that's the by far the most insulting thing ever said.
We're a tiny spec in our own galaxy and we're the most complex life-form?
We're formed on the ghost of Sagittarius, life probably started from the ashes of the previous galaxy. Where that came from I don't know. The only language that will be able to tell us this will math, of that much I'm entirely sure.
- SocialistBetty December 31, 2008 2:48PM
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All our children each have 50% of our genes (and that is not blue genes for you morons).
Add to that that they grow up initially in our environment.
And voila! We can see al lot of ourselves (and our spouses) in our children.
Stop wasting your time studying bibles and other "so called" holy books.
The truth is in biology, not religion.
- gma March 19, 2009 7:00PM
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Sorry, that was just a messy pile of words. I had to read each paragraph about four times just to grasp the meaning behind the twisted prose. As far as I can gather the argument was, I look like my mum and dad. God exists. Right then. Thanks.
As for the actual cited evidence, one thing stood out; "The overall purpose of self-perpetuation is assumed by most scientists to be the drive inherent in all samples of individual species to be “species-sustaining.” ". Translation, 'Scientists think things reproduce to continue their species.'
If by scientists you mean biologists, then no, they don't. Things reproduce to continue their genes, this is a complicated, sometimes counter-intuitive argument which takes much explaining but, once grasped makes a lot of sense and explains a whole mess of problems away. Try 'the selfish gene' for a good starting point.
- bjrhodes May 1, 2009 5:23AM
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I'm afraid "conventional wisdom" isn't a very firm basis on which to rest an argument. "Conventional wisdom" has held a lot of things which turned out to be wrong.
Moreover, it is not clear that the conventional wisdom cited here is in fact universal to the human species (and even if it were, so what? Humankind can't be wrong?). I would suspect that this is a cultural, not a species, assumption. An idea, for example, which had been dominant in the West was that of the great chain of being, where all things were connected in this chain, and related things looked like one another. Thus, in the Renaissance walnuts were thought to be good for treating problems with the brain because they resembled human brains.
An even bigger objection is that the claim that things tend to "reflect" their source seems to be inaccurate. It is also a vague phrase that can probably be shifted in ways that make it impossible to disprove, but let's leave that aside. The examples given here really stack the deck. For any one exmaple of how a thing looks like its source, I could likely give 10 examples of things that do not. Knowledge looks nothing like the books from which it was obtained; books look nothing like trees; trees look nothing like acorns; acorns, in turn, look nothing like trees, nor like sunlight, water, or nutrients. I shouldn't have to belabor the obvious here - claiming that things resemble their sources is such a vague claim that it is largely meaningless, and if the claim is made more specific, it becomes less apparent that this is something we should assume, "conventional wisdom" or not.
Without this very problematic assumption, there is no argument. The American atheists must really be slacking off if they haven't registered an objection to this "argument" yet.
- ghanastudent May 4, 2009 9:04PM
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The literal interpretation of the Bible & Torah as well as your own argument (apparently) suggest that a God exists with all of the physical features of a human man, though it's never been explained why exactly a god would require genitals, waste disposal, legs, or anything, really.
Children look like their parents not because their parents chose to make them that way but because they passed on a set of their own genes. Children sometimes act like their parents because they were exposed to a certain mindset, environment and ideology.
Why, then, would the God of the Bible choose to expose us and command of us violence, hate, racism , sexism, but not even bother to suggest compassion in, say, his Ten Commandments? Why would he share with us only a few attributes but not all, if we are truly made in his image?
It seems, as usual, the theist conclusion has come not from evidence and logical reasoning first, then conclusion, but conclusion first than a half-hearted attempt at evidence and logical reasoning to convince others of the conclusion.
- Blue Linchpin June 3, 2009 6:23PM
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I agree that the question of the intentions of God is clearly a religious question not for this debate. The intentions of God and the existence of God are two different issues. So the question of the implications of existence of God goes like this: If the question of the existence of God were answered, without any knowledge of the intentions of that God, what implications would there be? I believe there would be no implications in that instance, but I would like to see how others, specifically those who do believe, feel about this.
- roy1167 September 4, 2008 12:41PM
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"This is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Moses 1:39)
If we come to know not only that God exists but who He is and what our potential is, it would put this small moment in eternity we call life in perspective. Imagine a string pulled from New York to Las Angeles. Now imagine a pin inserted in that string somewhere in the middle, say Nebraska. That pin is to represent this earth life. The possibility of eternal life back in our heavenly home is an "actual implication" and a very important one.
I am Christian and therefore, an "actual implication" is the importance of the vicarious sacrifice of Jesus Christ; the great and last sacrifice. To me the existence of God is tied directly to Jesus Christ. This is vitally important because of the next point.
I personally think one reason in the doubt concerning our Heavenly Father's existence is his communication with man sometimes being overlooked. Yes He could, in a booming voice, speak to all nations and there would be none left with excuse (believe it or not, that day is coming). However, instead He calls Holy and True Prophets such as the ones we read of in the Holy Bible. If He had ever called a Prophet, he will continue to call Prophets. There is a true Prophet of God on earth today. No, not the kind that mutter blabberings in downtown New York, or the kind that make people drink purple koolaid. There are, and have been, many prophets that have led souls unto God and to His will; which is to trust in Him (in word, and ACTION [Faith]), to come to know His begotten son Jesus Christ, to repent (change, turn from sin or unjustice), to pray to Him, and follow the path that would lead back to His presence and to receive as a "...joint heir with Christ..." (Rom 8:16)
The implication of Gods existence is this: if we believe in God means we must allow Him to become involved in our lives, changing it, giving specific commandments, approving or disapproving. While He that believes not, keeps God distant; "out of their Hair".
Forget everything I've said, kneel down right now and ask God, our Heavenly Father, out loud, if he exists and what you'd do differently if He did. I promise you that if you ask with Trust (you will act upon the answer He gives you), being sincere of Heart, He will answer you. He did for me so clearly and far beyond sight that I am left with no doubt. Thats the test; far better that seeking an answer from man. Because those answers change; He remains constant. If he does remain constant, thats another important implication for you.
Boy, do I get excited about this topic. Just try the experiment, let God enter.
- SaintElmosFire November 3, 2008 4:46PM
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"The absence of proof is not proof of absence."
While fun and flowery, rhetorical devices are no substitute for logic. If the burden of proof is on proving that something does not exist we would be forced to admit the possibility that our every action is indeed guided by a Flying Spaghetti Monster.
- Kelly July 15, 2008 9:31PM
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"The absence of proof is not proof of absence."
This is not simply a rhetorical device, it is a perfectly reasonable and logical statement. And yes, we do have to admit, in a purely logical sense, that the flying spaghetti monster is possible, as remote as it may seem to us. Possibility is not dependent on feasibility or believability.
- roy1167 September 4, 2008 12:46PM
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Even "possibility" must have supportable reason for claiming it. I must ask you this: is there anything in human discovery and understanding that would even remotely support the possibility of a flying plate of spaghetti with superpowers? We ought not fling "possibility" about so carelessly.
For a thing to be possible, it must follow from what nature is capable of like anything else.
Even possibility needs proof. When we attempt to treat what we can only imagine as equal to what we know to be true, we spit in the face of fact and logic and, rather than increasing our awareness, we return to childish sleeping.
- Naumadd September 8, 2008 2:51PM
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I think the problem here is in the terminology. Possibility does not require proof. Literally anything is possible until proven impossible. That is the nature of the term, it's not a matter of a point of view. With that in mind, when we make claims about the natural world, it is fairly simple to prove the impossibility of a wide range of things. It is simple to say that strictly in a natural sense, a flying spaghetti monster or a god cannot possibly exist within the framework of our knowledge of the natural world. We need to respect that this argument isn't about the natural world.
Your claim, "For a thing to be possible, it must follow from what nature is capable of like anything else," is only true when discussing notions limited to the natural world. Any claim about god is a claim about something beyond the natural world. Personally, as a weak atheist (look it up), I believe that either claim (god exists or god does not exist) is baseless and unfounded. I think that none of us has any real knowledge to say anything about an issue with NO compelling evidence on either side. You can believe in a flying spaghetti monster, but you shouldn't be surprised if some people don't buy it, even though you think it exists.
What I will say about it is this, having some unfounded beliefs can be OK. For some people religious belief is comforting and a source of good in the world. For other people, believing that there is no god can be positive as well. On both sides there are those that treat their beliefs improperly by degrading or discriminating against others based on their views of religious belief.
The moral of my story is that possibility is not equal to things that are proven, but the possibility of the supernatural exists, and you would be a fool to claim otherwise. Possibility does not need proof, which makes the claim that something is possible fairly weak, but a true claim until proven otherwise. Just because something is possible does not mean anyone should believe it, and it doesn't mean they shouldn't. Even claims with no support are still possible despite their weakness; your argument that possibility requires proof is quite simply false, in a purely logical sense.
- roy1167 September 8, 2008 7:30PM
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"the burden of disproof of the theory of the existence of God is placed squarely upon my opposition in this debate."
Absolutely ridiculous. How about some more quotes? "Every claim requires evidence, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
Science does not busy itself with disproving *anything*. There's no point in disproving what does not exist. Rather, the burden is on Christian's to provide evidence for their extraordinary claims. Science is simple, and you seem to have the whole process backwards.The burden of proof is on those who make the claim, not on those who remain skeptical of outrageous claims.
The null position is atheism. We are ALL atheists when we are born. We are then taught a religion. The null position is atheism and any deviance from null requires evidence, oh which you have none.
- betterth July 25, 2008 8:00AM
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"Science does not busy itself with disproving *anything*."
Well, since God, by nature, would be and certainly is outside of the laws of physics, he would be difficult to disprove. But to your point, your non-interest in attempting to disprove God, is no evidence He doesn't exist. I would rather point out that your inability to prove the origin of life, the origin or very nature of the universe, the irrational behavior of forces in the universe that lead us to flip-flop on our publicly held opinions regarding "the beginning"- these at least leave a door open to the possibility that someone else is in charge. For those of us who have personal proof- that is enough for us. For those of you who are unable to come up with other rational answers, I recommend you at least open up your mind to the possibility that man's foolishness is the wisdom of God.
- TexasMom October 21, 2008 9:03AM
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"I would rather point out that your inability to prove the origin of life, the origin or very nature of the universe,"
A hundred years ago we couldn't prove what lightning was. We couldn't prove what the sun was. We couldn't prove what stars were. We couldn't prove anything regarding atoms, molecular theory, or most of the modern principles of biology and physics.
And people, religious people, simply claimed they were God acting in his way. Further back, when it was offered that the world was round and the sun was the center of our galaxy, not the earth, the
church killed people over those views.
Further back, the Egyptians attributed the sun, the moon and their harvest to religion. Happy gods brought good harvests. Angry gods brought plagues. No science, and religion filled the holes.
Religion has always said "Science can't prove it, therefore it must be god". And, given enough time, science has always found evidence.
- betterth October 21, 2008 9:16AM
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Actually, God described a round earth in the Old Testiment, but man later put upon religion (not truth), that the earth was flat. Why would you assume that a simple understanding of some of the forces of nature disproves God's existance? We still don't know much. We discover new vitamins each year, we argue global warming (now safely named "climate change" because of the cooler past 10 years), we struggle over dark matter theories and time/space challenges... what makes us think we can rule out God when we don't understand. You claim that science has always found evidence. I politely disagree. I believe there is much more we don't know than what we assume we know. The latest theory of the universe is that our section of universe exists in a time-space bubble, different from the rest of all that exists. This would explain the behavior of forces we can't understand, as though we are seeing through a "glass, dimly". Apparently, the scientists biggest problem with this otherwise plauable explaination is that it would mean that the earth, and our portion of the universe are truly special, unique. I guess that this scientific theory would come close to saying that it may be as God said after all. (not that any understanding of the universe is contrary to an understanding of God). But I call that biased science. You don't really think we know it all, do you?
- TexasMom October 21, 2008 9:30AM
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"But I call that biased science. You don't really think we know it all, do you?"
Of course not. I believe we know very, very, little. I believe our pathetic mammalian brains give us the power to think we're special, the power to create little gods for us to worship, but fail to give us any semblance of the ability to fathom the truths of this universe.
"Why would you assume that a simple understanding of some of the forces of nature disproves God's existance? "
Again, you are looking at it all wrong. I don't want to disprove your sky wizard. We've created thousands of your yahwehs. Thors. Odins. Amen-Rah's and Imoteps. Literally thousands.
Keep your little dude in the sky. In fifty years they'll be fifty more of them.
I don't have the time or desire to disprove every single god that every single culture decided to make.
Instead, I realize quite easily that we're all born atheist, and we're taught religion by our family/society. I realize there is no proof for religion. I realize that religion exists outside of the realm of proof. It cannot be proved or disproved.
I realize it is a statistical possibility for a god, whether it be your precious Judeo-Christian god, or Odin, to exist. But I realize that in the case of your god, if he would send me to hell simply because I do not 'believe' in him, than I would never want to worship so petty and vain a creature.
- betterth October 21, 2008 10:22AM
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It appears that you see God as a punisher rather than a redeemer. I see Him as the source of all that is good in this world and beyond. Here, we struggle in our lives to live with limitations which keep us from viewing the truth without the shadows of the flesh. God sent His only Son to enter into our humanity, so that we could enter into His Spirit- and live. He is transforming us from being mere creatures, into children with life breathed into them, and preparing us for true union. God made the rocks, trees and all that exists here- but people are different. Yes, people create lots of God, and somehow struggle against the only true God who asks that we be willing to give up all others. He is looking for hearts that seek Him, because He knows the better end in store. Free will allows us to choose the pastures that satisfy us with earthly things. But while here, we get glimmers of the better things of the Spirit.
I actually do understand your outlook. I know it will insult you if I tell you that I will pray for you, so let me just wish you well in your search or avoidance. It is your choice to believe that this is all there is or not. The key to transforming love, which is what God desires, is that it is reciprocal. But He allows us to make our own choices. He has already expressed the greatest love through Jesus Christ. That is not vain or petty. That is sacrifice that invites us all to free, unrestrained and eternal truth. There is no coercion.
God bless
- TexasMom October 21, 2008 10:55AM
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"I know it will insult you if I tell you that I will pray for you"
Of course it does not. Many of my Christian friends pray for me. And I hope beyond hope that they will shed their mental shackles and one day breathe the air of freedom and truth. To each our own :)
You sound like a standard evangelical Christian, and you just say how much God loves us and how he is wonderful and amazing and all that jazz. I mean, you ignore the fact that your bible is almost completely rewritten by corrupt Catholics in the dark ages, and that every scroll found of the traditional bible is highly contradictory, and none even mentioning the resurrection. (Yes, nothing pre-Catholic mentions your 'savior').
But you've completely ignored the fact that people create gods.
If you can understand why you so easily dismiss those 1,000 other gods, perhaps you can understand why I dismiss the 1001.
God is not a prerequisite for love. God does not love. At best, he is indifferent. I think it's very righteous of you to think he loves you. Do you presume that he loves the millions of children that starve to death? Does he love the millions that die of cancer, and other diseases that 'he' created? No 'loving' god would create literally thousands of horrific painful deaths.
He obviously hand created cancer. Himself. Every part of it. Science believes cancer is a flaw in our evolution, just how we are. But god is flawless, therefore we should be 'flawless' as his creation. So, you believe that every horrific disease and death is an example of how wonderful and loving this 'god' is?
Honestly that's kind of sick. If there's a 'he', he can't love us. You would never do what he 'does' to those you love. Earthquakes and volcanoes and the flu. This world sucks, honestly.
- betterth October 21, 2008 11:11AM
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The absence of proof does not prove absence. The absence of proof does not prove presence, either. The absence of proof does not provide reason to consider God even possible. After 10,000 years of belief. there is not even a decent collection of evidence, let alone proof, one must conclude that such an entity is misconceived. The pervasive Judeo-Christian-islamic God should have been clearly proven long ago.
Is there something "bigger" than us, something which is everywhere at the same time, something which contains all the knowledge there is? Nature, which we do perceive, certainly qualifies. Conceiving of God as a conscious being is a wrong way of conceiving of answers to the questions above. That's why there's such a long-standing absence of proof.
So, we can validly say, There is no such thing as God, as described by those who claim to think so.
- pbeaird August 20, 2008 5:58PM
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pbeaird, indeed. That is no argument from ignoracne but one acknowledging all the failed arguments for God in line with the auto-epistemic rule.
The presumption of naturalism reflects that not only are natural causes and explanations efficient but also necessary, primary and sufficient. They, contrary to Gottfried Wilhem Leibniz, are the sufficient reason. This neither sanbags theist nor begs the question but demands evidence as Einstein so did to overcome Newton.
Science explains the how and the why. The why is not according to a pre-arranged plan [ the atelic challenge] but according to natural forces, including those random ones. So those are indeed primary causes; one cannot then declare God the primary cause and them the secondary ones. As our naturalist arguments are defeasible, then there is probably no God.
- skeptic griggsy October 14, 2008 3:55PM
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Contrary to the attempts of the religious to make an epistemological equivalence between naturalism and supernaturalism as equally arguable hypotheses to explain nature, there is no such thing as a presumption of naturalism.
You are a human being. You have a definite nature, possessing specific characteristics and capabilities, including a human means of gaining knowledge of the world in which you exist. This includes seeing by means of looking with one's eyes...and so on for all the senses we possess...and a rational capacity to identify things by their fundamental characteristics and to form concepts in order to hold our knowledge indefinitely.
We are not anything but human beings and, thus, have no other means of gaininging knowledge of the world than our human means.
So, if you open your eyes and see nature, that's where your knowledge begins. There is no mental blank until you first choose your starting assumptions. There are no assumptions that nature, which you see, is nature and that you, somehow, choose to see it onlly in a natural way.
Nope. No presumptions whatsoever. You open your eyes, you see what's there and you begin to mentally organize the evidence provided by your senses into groupings accourding to similarities and differences.
You don't start building your knowledge with nature because you chose that as your presumption. You start building your knowledge with nature, because that is what is there.
To go the bizarre and cogintively misguided direction of attributing things that are there to supernatural, meaning unobservable, causes, is what requires an extra action of choosing an assumption, one which veers away from what you observe. Notice that all arguments for the existence of God or for any version of the supernatural require a very abstract organization of concepts and, upon examination, it turns out that there are NO observations which bear out that presumption, nor do the abstract arguments hold to the tests of logic.
So, naturalism is nothing more than human beings gaining knowledge of nature by human means, without a naturalist presumption. It is supernaturalism which requires the contruction of a presumption in order to selectively bring observables to the task of proving what is not a valid idea nor an observable reality.
Notice that this argument against the "presumption of naturalism" argument required nothing more than the fact that you exist with a specific nature as a human being, including a specific capacity for gaining knowledge. If you wish to quarrel with my argument, you must deny those facts about your existence.
- pbeaird October 14, 2008 9:02PM
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Thanks pbeaird for affirming this tested presumption. Antony Garrard Newton Flew calls it the presumption of agnosticism [before his dotage]. It is a procdedure, a heuristic device.Those non-observations affirm the ignostic-Ockham challenges that either God is fatuous or unartfully redundant,contrary to Alister McGrath. Yes, that extra action means resorting to convoluted ad hoc assumptions, greater than what one was to explain!
Yes, there can be no presumption of supernaturalism- Alvin Platinga's warrant for God as a basic belief. That presumption is the pareidolia- like seeing Yeshua in a tortilla- of seeing a caring,Super Mind behind Existence. That pareidolia is then a mere feeling without substance.
Presumption is what one starts with, so one perforce has to start with the naturalist one! One has to employ those observations, accept other minds and the external world and trust in ones mind from trial and error, contrary to C.Lewis and Alvin Platinga argument from reason [ a teleological argument] as basic.
pbeaird, again thanks. Please come over to Amazon religious discussions!
- skeptic griggsy October 15, 2008 4:29PM
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On the fence
I read plenty of texts on both sides of the coin and quite frankly, I think there are holes in both sides' arguments. The central problem all sides have addressing is about the creation of the universe. It's either God or some kind of energy mass that exploded and formed all the planets. Simply put, I believe in the power of science, but the absolute truth seems to be nobody knows how the universe came to be or how living organisms started existing. The next argument is how did we get to where we are today? One side says we are all created in God's likeness or that we evolved from apes. I nearly have to laugh at the suggestion that in God's eyes, we are perfect. Perfect with flaws, eh? Then I hate to think I evolved from an ape, but Darwin does have some strong supporting evidence in his works. I would really like for the religious groups to answer this: If God really does exist, why is there poverty and AIDS etc? That's where I call my faith into question. But I will stick with Maybe
- Sundevil
July 13, 2008 10:21PM
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to the question "if God exist where is there evil?"
Within your question you have two major assumptions that are false...
First of all, you assume that God can contradict himself, which is logically impossible.
Let me state for the record, God absolutely cannot contradict himself. If you think you see a contradiction, check your premises.
God created a world where people had freedom and free will. Hence, it follows logically that God cannot create people with absolutely free will without the possibility that people might choose evil.
Secondly, you assume humans and God share the same definition of "good."
You say that if a person is in poverty that is bad. Yes and no. It is true that they may lead an exceptionally painful existence, but God's measure of good is how many people accept him freely and enter heaven. If the only way a particular person might turn to God is through suffering, then that suffering was good. Since while the short term suffering may seem terrible, it is nothing compared to an eternity away from God.
- mkovach
September 11, 2008 11:08PM
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a reply ...
Free will cannot explain evil for a couple of reasons. Presumably good is inherently better for all than evil; humans do evil things because they are too weak or too ignorant to choose rightly; both our ignorance and our weakness are 'fixable' by God (if God exists). Having chosen to give us free will but not the wisdom or skill to use it rightly is analogous to giving a deadly object to a child, and then blaming the child for the outcome.
Free will also cannot explain the evil that befalls us due to natural events. This is a different category of evil; and is independent of human action. Blaming humans for this is irrational.
If God is all-powerful and Good, it follows logically that along with free-will he would give us the ability to use it rightly. The pervasiveness of suffering and evil show He did not; therefore (logically, again) God is either not all-powerful or not Good.
The argument that our suffering is meant to bring us to God is perverse. Again, we sin out of ignorance or weakness. God does not NEED to "lead" us to him, He could just give us the information we need to come to him. Remember: for God, no infliction of suffering on us is ever NECESSARY; for God, nothing is necessary. Therefore it is a choice. We are how we are because God (if God exists) chose to make us as we are.
- sean s
September 23, 2008 12:30PM
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"Good" and "Not-Good"
Keep in mind that "good" and "not-good" - I reject the notion of "evil" - are completely context dependent. There is no "good" or "not-good" without point of view. The suggestion that anything is "good" or "not-good" inherently outside of point of view is the same mistaken suggestion that there is meaning or purpose behind all. The fact is, the meaning of a thing is individually determined. Without point of view, there is no meaning.
Meaning and the word "meaning" are human invention.
One must and can only act from one's own point of view in specific context. The "good" can be anything. The "not-good" can be anything. You must answer why it is "good" or "not-good" and to whom - every time.
- Naumadd
October 16, 2008 9:30PM
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mkovach
29 May 2009
I like what you had to say about God. What you need to understand is that many people really do not want to know the truth because it would require them to do some soul searching of their own. It is easier to blame God for the ills of the world than to research one's soul and take a good hard look at ourselves. How could there be good w/o bad, right w/o wrong, life w/o death? Remember whenever we become full of ourselves we open the door to true evil, Satan. God wants us to love him because we want to, not because we have to, ie free will. In today's society too much importance is put on money and material things in my humble opinion.
There are people who do not consider themselves poor, although by others standards most likely would be considered poor. If you believe in God, you must also know that Satan is his rival, and will do what it takes to attempt to dehumanize humans in the eyes of other humans. God won't fall for it however many humans will and do. I believe that there are millions of tragedies in this world that could be easily laid at Satan's door. He loves to see people ponder over whether there is a God, it is his mission. We do have choices in this world, whether or not people see that have choices or not is another story. To simply do nothing is a choice, and if Satan can keep us reacting instead of acting, he has us on the fence post.
For me God does exist because when I look back over my life, and I see the many times God was there for me when no one else was. It would not have mattered if I had a lot or money or none, because I was in the hospital on machine that was breathing for me. They were pumping me full of morphine/paralytic drugs so I would remain still because I was told I was fighting the machine to breath on my own. It took me 3 months to be able to get my arms, legs, and hands to function properly. I remember walking around in Walmart for 3 hours trying to gain strengh in my legs.
The wonder of it all was I didn't remember hardly any of it, until I was told. What I remembered was praying in a safe place within myself. I saw my life and my loved ones lives and how much I loved them. I spoke with a woman whom I'm told no one ever saw in my room, yet she was with me all the time. I saw good times and sad times, and things I could have done differently in my past, and a chance to do them differently in the future. I saw violence and dispair and death whirl around me yet I was not afraid.
It is okay with me if others choose to believe God does not exist, probably wouldn't be able to change their minds no matter what I said. I could have easily died in that hospital, but God had other plans, my daughter and my grandchildren needed me to be here for them, which I am. I am with my family, and to me that is worth more than any dollar value. We are not rich, we are not poor, however that is in terms of dollars and cents, we are rich in many other ways. I hope that what I have shared with you will make you think back over your lives, wonder what you might find. Thank you for reading my missive, it is longer than I had planned it to be. Sincerely lfschrawyer
- lfschrawyer1 May 29, 2009 4:14PM
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Maybe some of the praise for your recovery should be reserved for the medical team who were there to help you through it. People generally seem to account all of the good things that happen to them as being attributable to God and discount all of the bad things. It's a ridiculous notion. It's a textbook case of specious reasoning. Why do you curry favour with God more than a child left to die in Africa. Why doesn't he step in to help them? Quite simple really. He doesn't exist.
- RedDragon
June 4, 2009 7:53AM
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And just who do you think provided that medical team with the skills to save anothers life? I have to say I feel sad for people who think as you do. Specious reasoning, ten dollars words won't convince me nor anyone else who has faith and hope by the grace of God that He does not exist. The text book you should be reading is the Bible. You speak of African children , why go so far from home, there are plenty of children in the states who have some of the same problems as those in Africa. Maybe just maybe if you read the bible , you would learn more about God and why things go the way that they do. Exactly what makes you so sure God doesn't help African children or any child for that matter. My niece spent two years of her life in Africa helping and teaching the very children you speak of. God comes in many forms through many people, I am sorry you feel the way that you do. It must be difficult to know what's out there walking around with blinders on all the time.
If you want to know why God does what He does, why don't you go to the source and ask Him?
Have a Blessed Day.......
- lfschrawyer1 June 6, 2009 2:29AM
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Another reply
Before I start, I think it's best to inform you that I had a strong Christian upbringing and education , so I am quite well versed on the Bible. The difference between you and I is that at one point I actually decided to use my brain and to be honest, I couldn't be happier!
There you go with that specious reasoning again! You might want to look up it up before responding next time. I actually feel sorry for people like you who tie their lives to a myth. That's one thing you Christians tend to overlook. The reality is that you do not need a book to tell you the difference between and right and wrong. Granted, there is a lot of value in the message that the Bible spreads (and, sadly, a lot of hatred as well.... see the Old Testament) but it doesn't make the stories any truer. You might want to consider that notion. It's quite liberating I assure you.
I think it's fantastic that your niece went to Africa to help out however you are devaluing the work that she has done and the good person that she is by implying that she is doing it because God told her to.
For the record, my home is in England. I'm sure I can find some disadvantaged children there too if I look hard enough. I fail to see what point you're trying to make though...
- RedDragon
June 9, 2009 5:35AM
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just a comment
Saying that god doesn't exist because he does not step in and counteract problems that humans have brought on themselves is an unreasonable statement. I'm not saying that the that the people that are dying in Africa deserve to die to to genocide or starvation or anything else. I am saying that since god gave man and women free will the things that befall us are the doings of man. We create starvation and war and poverty . Since god gave us free will humans choose their own path whether it is for the bettering of man or for the worsening. It is not his choices that put people in these situations but our own. Why would he step in and change thing when we have the power to change things for ourselves. We create our own world not god he just gave us the power to do so.
- ruralamerican
September 5, 2009 1:13AM
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Have you noticed
that the people that seem to blame God for everything are the ones that don't believe in him?
- mike1948
September 6, 2009 9:58PM
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blame game
It is not blaming God... it is just postulating that if a deity existed with the qualities usually associated with God then why would things happen as they do?
- MrBook
September 11, 2009 7:13PM
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Your weighing seems unbalanced
You say that on the one hand we are created in God's likeness. You point out an important problem in our definitions of good and evil, that would make a benevolent God seem very confusing, if not actually impossible. (We can also acknowledge that there are many, many concepts of God, most of which are contradictory with each other, and all of which are equally arbitrary definitions. How can we pick one and say it must be true?)
On the other hand, you say, we evolved from apes. (I'll set aside the fact that evolutionary biology actually says that apes and humans evolved from a common ancestor.) You say that there is "strong supporting evidence," but that you would just "hate to think" it was true.
Seeing you cite logical problems on one side and strong evidence on the other, I'm surprised that you opt for indifference. The fact that you aren't happy with a conclusion doesn't make it false. Maybe you just need to reflect on what it is about sharing an ancestor with apes that makes you sad. Is a world with evolution and natural selection really that much less amazing and awe-inspiring? I don't think so.
- thoughtcounts Z
October 30, 2008 8:18AM
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In defend of the existence of GOD
There are a lot of arguments about the existence of GOD. Some try to prove scientifically and logically. What we need to know is that GOD is so much much bigger (beyond our imagination) than what we can think of. We cannot limit GOD with our (limited and simple) mind. GOD creates everything, there is no way that the created being can think about the CREATOR. In a simple analogy we can put it this way, a computer programme cannot explain about the programmer unless the programmer put it in the programme he or she wrote. The same way is with our GOD, unless GOD reveals to us (humankind), there is no way we know or understand about GOD. The other thing that we need to know, we live in a different dimension from GOD. For this reason we cannot enter the other dimensions.
Talking about poverty, sickness and all the problems in this world we cannot avoid not to talk about sins. To explain about this we need to refer to the original sin (as what is written in the Bible in the book of Genesis). As we know, GOD so loves the world that HE has given HIS only begotten Son to die for humankind. From here we can see that GOD wants every single human being to be saved from "the dead" (eternal separation from GOD). When GOD walked on this earth in form of humankind like us, HE also experienced all the sufferings known to this world. So, HE perfectly knows about this. Another thing we need to know is that life is more than "walking" on this planet (which is only a very small fraction of the "real" life - in the life after).
After all if we really want to know about GOD, we simply need to ask GOD to reveal HIMSELF to us so that we can understand what is beyond our (limited and simple) mind.
By the way, if you are interested in knowing about this futher, based on my experience, there is an excellent book that explain clearly. The name of the book is "The Progress of Redemption: The Story of Salvation from Creation to the New Jerusalem" by Willem Vangemeren (you can look at the internet).
Finally, what I can say, if we really ask and humble ourselves, GOD will definitely reveal HIMSELF to us in HIS own way.
- speedy1485
January 23, 2009 1:56AM
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Explanations of God
I suspect there is a "God" or a first cause we have named God. However, human explanations that come in dogmatic presentations from organized religions can never be proven nor dis proven. As the above article states, "GOD creates everything, there is no way that the created being can think about the CREATOR." Yet we have a Bible, a Koran, and countless others all claiming to be the revealed word of God....can they all be correct? When humans do find out which explanation is the real and true one let us all hope it is similar to the Janis explanation, since they seem to have the more benevolent view of this entity we have named God.
- wanderer
May 27, 2009 3:30PM
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Hmmm....
How convenient it is that God is so complex that we will never be able to apply rational human logic to fully comprehend him. That's a completely ridiculous notion! If we took that approach to science we would still be roaming around in loincloths. Great idea! Let's all intelligent thought aside and submit ourselves to God's almighty plan.
- RedDragon
June 4, 2009 8:05AM
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speedy1485
"There are a lot of arguments about the existence of GOD. Some try to prove scientifically and logically. What we need to know is that GOD is so much much bigger (beyond our imagination) than what we can think of. We cannot limit GOD with our (limited and simple) mind."
In other words, God exists no matter how nonsensical the idea is to our minds and no matter the amount of evidence to the contrary that our minds can perceive....
- passerby October 7, 2009 12:24PM
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God created us above the angels and wanted us to have free will.
If the world were perfect, we would all be robots without the choices to do good or evil. That is not love, that is slavery. This is not what God wanted for us.
God created us and knows our nature, therefore at creation he knew that we would have to sacrifice his son on the cross for our sins, in order to perfect his creation in heaven. He also knew that we would suffer for the sins of our fathers and our fellow souls.
We can not see the entirity of our existence, for example when my nephew was killed in Iraq, it was an incredible sadness, but now four years later we appreciate the fullness of his life and the splendidness of his sacrifice. He gave up his earthly life to save others in his battalion. Yet these two things existed together at the same instant, though at his death we did not see his ,and the effect of his life on others for years to come.
A really good book to read on this subject is called "The Shack."
- SuperDelegate
February 22, 2009 10:09PM
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Free will?
I'm really struggling to reconcile the notion of "free will" with the idea that God has a divine plan for us. As far as I can see, only one of them can be right. Which is it?
- RedDragon
June 4, 2009 8:10AM
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They say that what doesn't kill us makes us who we are
I'm with you on the maybe. You can't prove or disprove the existence of God. If there is a God, then only he can do that.
But if I were God, and I made the world, I would have created AIDS and poverty, etc. Because humans aren't good at appreciating what they have unless it's taken away from them. At the very least, they are unable to comprehend what it is they have unless they have something to compare it to. Humans in general don't define themselves by what they are as much as they define themselves by what they aren't. We also define ourselves more by what we don't have than what we do.
Think for a moment on what makes life meaningful. What makes us want to live our lives instead of sleeping it away? Death. What makes us grateful for our health ? Disease.
I believe that without death, disease, and trials, not only would we never learn anything, we would be unhappy. You've heard that adversity will make you strong? I think adversity just makes you you.
- Cheerikiara
May 15, 2009 3:36PM
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They say that death brings meaning of life
Human being just want strong reason for everything.
Why I stumbled over that rock? Bad karma, God punished you (or you were too inattentive).
Why You got sick? You did not wash your hands day before.
Why it rains today? Cyclons and atmosphere levels did that.
Why Universe expands? Big bang happend very long time ago.
Why this particle appears in so many places at once? Erm.. wait, we still sorting it out.
Yes indeed, we do search for meaning all the time. But in most cases it is not needed for everyday life.
You'll find meaning eventually when You'll be very passionate about something and/or when you will have strong relationships with someone (friends, family, even with your cat or dog).
They say that death brings meaning of life. Not realy. Death might play some role in valuation. But meaning comes from passions and desires not from cheating death (unless it is not your very special passion).
- ctrnz
July 1, 2009 12:28PM
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Ahh The Problem of Pain
If you really are searching for some answers to this question then I can provide great books that break down the philosophical side of free will. One of the most well known on this issue is C.S. Lewis, "The problem of pain." He also wrote mere "Christianity" and "Miracles." You are right in saying that there is no absolute proof of how life came about. However keep in mind, "Science doesn't provide us with truth. The practice of scientific investigation involves tools that help us explain how the physical world might work. The explanation doesn't have to be true to be useful, just consistent with most of the evidence." (Spencer). The evidence when studied just facts points towards a designer. Chance is ruled out through mathematical probability. For more on this read Robert Collins, Jay W. Richards, or Guillermo Gonzalez. For scientific evidence in molecular biology read Michael Behe, and Johnathan Wells. I would encourage reading opposing view from evolution scientist such a Ruse. It is good to know why you choose you evidences.
The energy mass you speak of is called the singularity. Both sciences believe in the "big bang" It is a measurable event. The argument is evolution believes that nothing came from nothing to create something over billions of years. There can be no infinity. "Everything that begins the exist has a cause, The earth began to exist, therefore it has a cause." If you heard a bang in the next room and asked me what was that and i said nothing, you would not except that. The bang has a cause. The idea that something comes into existence un-caused is absurd. Thank you for your time
- rekiser
September 6, 2009 9:38PM
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providing truth
Ahh The Problem of Pain
“However keep in mind, "Science doesn't provide us with truth. The practice of scientific investigation involves tools that help us explain how the physical world might work. The explanation doesn't have to be true to be useful, just consistent with most of the evidence." (Spencer).”
Yet religion does not provide us with the truth either…
“The evidence when studied just facts points towards a designer.”
Actually no, there has been no demonstrated evidence that even suggests a designer.
“Chance is ruled out through mathematical probability.”
Blind chance, yes… but Evolution is not about blind chance. Evolution is the process by which life forms change from generation, with those changes that benefit reproduction having a greater chance of being passed down to successive generations.
“For more on this read Robert Collins, Jay W. Richards, or Guillermo Gonzalez. For scientific evidence in molecular biology read Michael Behe, and Johnathan Wells. I would encourage reading opposing view from evolution scientist such a Ruse. It is good to know why you choose you evidences. “
To which I’d add Richard Dawkins, Ken Miller, Sean Carroll, and Stephen Gould.
“The argument is evolution believes that nothing came from nothing to create something over billions of years.”
That is not quite accurate… everything came from the original singularity, including space-time.
“The bang has a cause.”
Yes, and that is currently an area of much Scientific investigation.
“The idea that something comes into existence un-caused is absurd.”
Very true… so what caused the designer?
- MrBook
September 11, 2009 4:50PM
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I have absolutely no idea
I have absolutely no idea if there is or is not a God. Perhaps there is – perhaps there is not. Because I have neither seen nor heard him/her does not mean he/she does not exist. On the other hand, because many do believe in the existence, does not make it so. Believing in a God is a lovely concept. I have not seen UFO’s or aliens. That too does not deny in my mind, their existence.
Just as children believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, adults too, seem to need a spiritual figure to sustain them, particularly in troubling times. The concepts of a God, a Hereafter and Retribution are also factors which help keep people following the moral path in life. So whether or not there is or is not a God should not really be an issue. It is a question which will probably never have an answer which will satisfy everyone. For each of us, we will have to find the answer within ourselves.
- redondo July 14, 2008 11:30PM
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Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy
You compare God to Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. Do you think they might exist, too? Somehow I doubt it.
You're right that not having experienced something does not prove that the thing doesn't exist. However, it means there had better be a pretty good reason for assuming that it does. If I told you that the air around us was full of tiny invisible fairies that are undetectable in any way, would you say, "Yeah, maybe"? I hope you'd say, "Get real, that doesn't make any sense." But my positing of invisible fairies is just as arbitrary as positing the existence of God, or Santa Claus, or the Tooth Fairy. It might make me happy to believe in the fairies. I might even have some complex belief system about them that causes me to be a nicer person. That doesn't make the fairies real.
Whether or not there is a God is just as much an issue as whether or not there are invisible fairies around us all the time. If there's no good reason to think something exists, we should default to "no," at least for the time being. I don't claim to have proof that there is no God. I just think it's an arbitrary concept to make up, and I think the burden of proof lies with the person making the outlandish claim.
- thoughtcounts Z
October 30, 2008 8:30AM
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Children believe Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy because...
Children believe Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy because presents don't appear out of nowhere usually and most teeth don't turn into money . Children are mistaken of the identity of the present giver or tooth taker, but a present giver or tooth taker exists.
- Screen Name
April 8, 2009 2:48AM
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Is delusional thinking beneficial?
More people believe in some spiritual reality than don't believe. If this is delusional thinking, then it must have conferred some benefit to homo sapiens throughout history. This is a profound "mystery."
- acitizen
April 9, 2009 10:58AM
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welcome to the club
Welcome the liberating world of the agnostics. Come on in, the water's fine.
Then mental gymnastics required to justify faith in a god and defend him / her are simply not worth it. To argue the unknown without working toward substantive proof is folly. For every question the non-believer has, the believer always answers with the mystic.
Surely this will not be popular, but in my opinion, if there really is a god, you can keep him. He / she is either cruel, incompetent, or both. Defending his / her positions only makes a person look foolish.
- tek June 14, 2009 11:01AM
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Does Steve Jobs exist
The question is unanswerable. If a being exists that is of a higher order than ourselves then by definition we are incapable of proving or disproving his/her existence. Bit like expecting an iPhone to prove that Steve Jobs exists. A better question for me is "What if God did exist? Shouldn't I be doing something about it?"
- Blamm July 24, 2008 5:46AM
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Its a Question of Higher Power
I do believe there is a higher power that most people would refer to as God. My Interpretation stems from intelligence and how we understand the world around us and then to the higher levels of intelligences. For example my dog is a wonderful pet, but he does have a lower intelligence than me. He experiences the world very differently than me. Am I a God to him? I think to him we would be. If we didn't know better if a alien race came down to this planet and had intelligence that we did not understand would they be a God? In ancient history probably yes, watch Chariots of Fire. Nowadays thats a tough one, we have a much better understanding of what intelligence is. If God walked the earth would he cease to be God? I think it boils down to intelligence and the authority that intelligence perceives to have. Last thought intelligence a entity born out of energy derived from a source called GOD. We all possess a piece of it, that we have to grow to return back to the source.
- PrimeTimeD July 24, 2008 9:32AM
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Does my dog regard me as God?
I doubt seriously that my dog thinks that I am God. He might be slightly impressed when the front door light comes on automatically, because of the motion detector, when we return at night after a walk, although I think I lose considerable numbers of points, when I fumble around in the dark for the keys, because I forgot to turn on the light in the first place (he has perfect night vision), or even worse, I have to get the garbage bin to climb over the security gate because I forgot its key.
- bachfiend
September 1, 2008 5:36AM
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God may exist, but not the kind most people believe in.
I consider myself an atheist, for I see no need for a god to have created the universe or have any role in the playing out of events in this existence. However this does not automatically mean that god does not exist. Yet if a god does exist, I do not believe it would be at all the sort of god which any of today's religions adhere to. It would not care about humans anymore than the air around us, for we are all simply made of matter, energy, and void which interacts according to strict rules which we have never seen broken. Why would the creator of EVERYTHING care about one small bit of its creation which is in no way different than any other bit except in its own heavily biased opinion. The universe may just be some pan-dimensional teenager's science-fair experiment simulation on his computer which they created to study the formation of galaxies. Humans and other life are just things which happened to develop due to this set up of the laws of physics.
- The5thElephant July 24, 2008 9:54AM
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Where did god come from?
If he "always was, and always will be" as so many profess, why can't we say the same thing about the universe(s)?
- Coventry July 24, 2008 11:36AM
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Science invalidates the steady-state theory of the universe.
Scientists are in near unanimous agreement that the universe came into being roughly 14 billion years ago, and all current evidence supports this theory.
The discovery of cosmic microwave background radiation is the primary piece of evidence for the "big bang theory."
- mkovach
September 11, 2008 11:21PM
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Science vs. religion
I'm an atheist - always have been, always will be. Most people don't change sides once they've come to a decision. So my comment is really about the nature of the argument. I'm weary of believers saying that evolution isn't true, or that they see god when they look at children. Even if there were merit to any of it, it's no basis for the existence of god. Nor is evolution's truth a basis for the absense of God. Can't we dispense with this silliness? Neither side can win the argument, because neither can answer the first and foremost question of being: Why is there something instead of nothing? I believe in the Big Bang Theory, but even that doesn't answer the question. My biggest argument against god so far is that religious people came up with him - the same people who have been denying scientific progress for hundreds of years. But both science and religion come from a human need to seek order and truth. So far science has won the battle but not the war.
- zumothecat July 24, 2008 4:30PM
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Evolution is fact
Evolution is fact (the fossils show change). Darwin proposed the theory of evolution by means of natural selection. Intelligent design is just another theory; a theory of evolution by means of intelligent design (the proponents don't deny change, nor do they deny natural selection at species level). The proponents of ID have failed to provide any evidence or ways of recognising ID when or if it occurs, and until they do so, it can't be taken seriously. Natural selection, on the other hand, has a lot of evidence in its favour.
- bachfiend
September 1, 2008 5:45AM
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Saying a theory is a fact enough times doesn't make it a fact
Hitler tried to make facts by repeating them enough times. Don't fall for this weakness in the human condition. Natural selection is not Evolution. Intelligent design is simply a phrase made up by men, it isn't in the Bible. However, the Bible does tell us to observe all that God has made. Do that, then decide for yourself if it is an accident.
- joelinda September 24, 2008 8:14AM
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The bible isn't fact
Yes, natural selection is a (scientific) theory about a mechanism of evolution (a fact), for which there is overwhelming evidence, and intelligent design is just an invented explanation, for which there is no evidence. Don't waste my time by (poorly) quoting the bible as evidence. First of all you'd need to prove that god exists and that the bible is more than a poorly edited collection of inconsistent works of fiction. Once you have done that, then you can come back and we can discuss whether god works through evolution or whether god is a deceiver (as Philip Henry Gosse in his book "Omphalos" published in 1857 2 years before the Origin seemed to believe) and created an earth 6000 years old to look 4.5 billion years old. The bible is wildly inaccurate with regard to science, besides stating that pi equals exactly 3, and that the earth's rotation can be just stopped for a day so Joshua can just commit another of his acts of divine sanctioned genocide. I won't even try to correct your use of the word "accident"; it's obvious you don't have the slightest understanding of evolution.
- bachfiend
September 24, 2008 10:23AM
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Not everything that believers believe can be observed
Believers have faith. The Bible is clear that faith is required. However, these citations claiming to disprove The Bible are false. Saying The Bible is wildly inaccurate a few hundred times and getting others to site the statement, doesn't make it true.
There are plenty of archeological and historical correlations to stories presented in The Bible.
- joelinda November 6, 2008 9:22AM
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??? "plenty of archeological and historical correlations"
Faith is belief without any evidence at all. Personally, I always insist on at least some evidence for important matters, particularly when the item concerned is highly implausible. Since you mention it, can you name 5 "archaelogical and" (/or) "historical correlations" (whatever that is supposed to mean) "to stories" (and that is just what they are, stories, fiction) "presented in the bible", for me to consider? And don't mention Josepheus.
- bachfiend
November 6, 2008 6:03PM
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Sorry, too much stuff to limit it to only 5
Go thru some of these websites.
http://www.provethebible.net /
http://www.apologeticsindex.org /
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm
http://www.bible.org/topic.php?topic_id=53
http://www.carm.org/index/welcome.htm
or get your own Bible that answers many of the questions. Here is the Amazon link
http://www.amazon.com/Apologetics-Study-Bible-Understand-Believe/dp/158640024X
- joelinda January 26, 2009 3:05PM
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Evolution is a theory, not a fact.
Truth is you can't prove it. Ask any scientist. Not saying it isn't a very good theory, I mean even gravity is just a theory, but it is still just a theory, not fact.
Secondly, the existence of a diving being or beings does not require it to be a Christian god , or for the Bible to be anything more than a book. Furthermore, more and more scientists are beginning to say that for the universe to have occured, there would have had to have been a cause for the Big Bang. Also, while experiments have shown that in stimulations of Earth's early conditions , simple amino acids, the building blocks of life, will indeed form, statistics have demonstrated that the chances of these amino acids happening to line up in just the right way to form a protein are so small as to make it virtually impossible. This isn't opinion, it is what has been shown in experiments and calculations by real scientists. Intelligent Design is also a theory, not some mumbo jumbo. It is not an invented explaination, and it does have evidence.
- richardsonkr
June 3, 2009 6:03PM
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Gravity is a theory, not a fact?
Oh well, if you don't think that gravity is a fact, why don't you prove the theory by jumping off the top of the nearest tall building? With regard to abiogenesis, formation of polypeptides is not thought to be the first component. RNA (or some early simpler version of it) is thought to be the first critical component, because RNA has both catalytic and reproductive properties, so it can do the jobs of both proteins and DNA. Evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis. Claiming that because evolution can't explain the origin of life proves intelligent design is just ludicrous. ID is not supported by ANY evidence; it is a theory without any scientific support.
- bachfiend
June 3, 2009 10:51PM
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Yes. Gravity is a theory.
Gravity is a theory. Ask any scientist. Then ask them to explain very slowly what a theory is to you. You'll be a better person for it. Also, please stop making appeals to ridicule. It is a logical fallacy, and makes you look like a jerk.
Your attempt to disprove Intelligent Design using big words is infantile. It's also a logical fallacy, known as argumentum verbosium. You didn't acually disprove anything, you just said basically the same thing I said, and then denied it. You offered no evidence, you just used a lot of big technical terms and made it a lot longer than it needed to be in the hopes of confusing me. You failed. You have disproved nothing.
Finally, in your persistance in stating that ID has no evidence, despite the fact that you have disproved nothing and not even attempted to disprove all of the evidence offered, you have shown yourselves to be just as close-minded as the 7-day Creationist who refuses to acknowledge evolution . Do yourself a favor, and go down to your local Community College. Enroll in two classes, one on the scientific method, and one on rhetoric. You should come away with that experience with a firm grasp on both what a scientific theory is and why both evolution and gravity are scientific theories, and how to offer up a valid argument without appealing to logical fallacies.
- richardsonkr
June 4, 2009 6:23AM
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Know what else Hitler did?
Went to church. In fact, he wanted to be a priest.
Stop with the Hitler comparisons.
- quantummechanik
June 3, 2009 4:42PM
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In his youth.
He dropped that in favor of Secular Socialism as he grew into an adult/dictator.
- richardsonkr
June 3, 2009 5:52PM
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Still went to church. Professed belief in Christ
Doing all of those things makes you Hitler-like
- quantummechanik
June 3, 2009 5:55PM
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Because the Germans were Christian.
You can't convince a group to hate people who are different when you are different. Hitler was evil, yes, but also intelligent. Once he was in power and had the Germans firmly united behind him, he quickly phased out that pesky Christianity business. If you accuse some one of being like Hitler based on his brief stint as a Christian, you can say make the comparison to just about anyone. He was a man, for example, and a veteran, he was Austrian, and he even happened to be part Jewish. Do you really want to say that all men, veterans, and anyone who is part Jewish are like Hitler?
- richardsonkr
June 3, 2009 6:14PM
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re
God is there!!
I have myself felt that there is some power in the universe which drives us to the good path!!
---
philip
foreclosed homes
- philip1111
August 6, 2009 5:22AM
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gods solve nothing
Postulating a god as the ultimate cause of unexplained complexity solves precisely nothing, because you are left with explaining the origin of this degrees-of-magnitude more complex creative entity.
- Steve Wrathall July 24, 2008 6:41PM
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Self-Existing
I would think "this degrees-of-magnitude more complex creative entity" would be self-existing.
- Screen Name
April 8, 2009 2:52AM
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Wrong question ...
I've indulged this debate for over two decades and its essence boils down to this - We need not debate the existence of a "god". The true debate is whether or not those who claim the existence of such have sufficient evidence and reason to support their claims.
Do claimants of the existence of a "god" have sufficient evidence and argument to support what they claim?
That's the more relevant question.
I cannot reject a "god" whose existence has never been conclusively proven and accepted. What I reject is the weak or absent evidence and the poorly reasoned arguments for such.
- Naumadd
July 24, 2008 8:34PM
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Useless Debate
Let's be frank here. Over the past ten millenia mankind has created in excess of a thousand gods. Ultimate gods, pantheons of gods, nature gods, fertility gods, vengeful gods, merciful gods, gods that sleep with humans, gods that walk amongst humans, and gods that commit genocide.
To actually entertain a theist when they say "I don't believe in those 1,000 gods, they are clearly false and wrong, but I believe in this one God, with absolutely no more evidence than any of those others" is ridiculous.
I give as much credibility to the silly notion of a christian god as I do to harry potter and Zeus. All of them, entertaining works of fiction.
The christian god is just another mark in the book of gods, and will fade with time (like every single god man has worshiped has).
- betterth
July 25, 2008 7:54AM
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NO evidence of a god, heaven, hell, devils or angels
I am a 100% atheist because there is NO evidence of a god, heaven, hell, devils, angels or a soul that leaves the body. They are ALL figments of our imagination. Heaven is an attractive illusion. All thoughts about god exist only in our minds. Look for evidence and you will find none. All animals and plants came about because of evolution which has been going on for 3.5 billion years on Earth.
Jimmy Dunne 281.584.9707
- Jimmy Dunne
July 25, 2008 8:22AM
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How did the world come to be? Well how did God come to be?
Just because we don't know how the world came to be, doesn't mean God made it. That means we don't know how it came to be. The same thing can be said about God. How did he/she come to be? I do not see how it is a bigger leap of faith to say that you don't know how the world was created than to say that God has been around for eternity, and made the world. And even if there is a God, how can you possibly know that your god is the real god? Maybe Zeus is the real God. There is simply no way of knowing.
- mmsomekid July 25, 2008 8:53AM
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Read the Bible, then decide for yourself
Ironically, I'm seeing some of the same people who make the argument that we need to cut down on CO2 emmissions "just in case" it is causing global warming making the argument that God doens't exist. Why not read the Bible, "just in case" God exists? Then after reading it and reflecting on it, make your own decision.
- joelinda July 25, 2008 12:12PM
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Terrible Argument
A lot of people that don't follow the Bible have already read it "just in case" and still don't believe it.
Global warming will have global consequences. If the god of the Bible is real, then it's between him and the person in question.
Finally, why only the Bible? What about the other holy books and the other gods? They are just as likely to be true.
- Aly September 3, 2008 12:17PM
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You proved my point
You have bought into global warming, "just in case". While there is evidence on both sides of the hypothesis, you made a statement that leaps to treating it as a fact. My point is that it is silly for people to apply the scientific method as a way to say that there isn't a God, while they turn right around and embrace fake science as fact. Darwin's stuff is still considered a theory, for instance. It is not a fact. Global warming, caused by human actions, is still a theory, not a fact. It is a fact that the earth has warmed and cooled many times in the past, without any help from mankind.
Sure, please do read all the so called holy texts. I have read many of them, but won't claim to have read them all. I find that the ones I have read have common themes about loving the unlovable and generally buy into the same 10 commandments that are found in the old testament. My issue with the other texts is that all of them, except The Bible, promise a way to heaven thru some kind of action by you, a mere mortal, no further action by God being required. Only The Bible makes it clear that nobody gets to heaven unless God physically intervenes and allows it. That's the text I choose to believe since it requires the existence of God. The other texts simply don't.
Yes, The Bible also clearly states that many people who read it won't believe it.
- joelinda September 3, 2008 2:30PM
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Theories, Scientific Theories, and Facts
By "Darwin's stuff" I'm assuming you mean evolution. That isn't "just a theory," it's a scientific theory. Please tell me you know the difference. Science doesn't make things up as it goes along, as religions do.
And about the other holy texts, you are incorrect.
I hope you choose to expand on what you know, but if not, that's yours to deal with. I'm not going to argue this any longer.
- Aly September 3, 2008 2:55PM
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Yes, Darwin's theory is a theory, not a scientific fact
Yes, I understand the difference between a scientific theory and a scientific fact. I have a scientific bachelor's degree and I know that scientists do "make stuff up" = "postulate". It's the first step in the process.
- joelinda September 3, 2008 3:17PM
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Darwin's theory
"I have a scientific bachelor's degree and I know that scientists do "make stuff up" = "postulate". It's the first step in the process."
They only make anything up because of observations in reality that need explanation. Then they test the explanation via scientific observations or experiments. Religion does not do this next step. Within religion, they say, "This suits me to believe, therefore I will follow it." Science does not allow for such wishful thinking.
- Dale Husband
September 24, 2008 12:55AM
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Belief in God requires faith, Science uses observation
This discussion in about a belief in God. Yes, science is about observation, pulling together a consensus on what can be observed, experiments that can be replicated, and peer review. God doesn't fit into this neat little, man defined box, called the scientific method. So, the whole idea of using science as a method to answer the question of whether God exists is silly. God has a plan for everyone, but it is up to each individual to have enough faith to believe it. Using science as a justification to not believe in God is folly, but those who don't have enough faith to believe won't realize it until it is too late for them. I wouldn't call it wishful thinking. The beauty and massive complexity of God's creation is enough for me to realize that none of this world or universe could exist by accident.
- joelinda September 24, 2008 8:03AM
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A logical trap?
weedonald - you said: "A supreme Being is totally perfect therefore cannot be measured, defined or even " sampled" as per the scientific method,but if we could..."
Isn't your assumption based, in part, on the subjective concept of perfection? By removing God from man's capability to define god you can not both say God exists and God does not exist. In essence, you've defined what you state can not be defined by creating a definition.
"God, if he or she exists, is above dimensional space and time..." - Again, this creates the same loop as above but this time resting on the assumption that extra-dimensional space and time exist to support the position that God exists.
"We cannot , by definition ever understand or know The First Cause (God) because we are only capable of anthropomorphizing any Creator or Force that is metaphysically beyond us." - I'll defer to my prior arguments and note that this point is what paradoxically refutes your own arguments.
- sumwatt July 26, 2008 8:10AM
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First Cause
I find it interesting that today quantum physicist are searching for the first cause, the god particle, and dark matter.
God revealed to Moses thousands of years ago, "I am who am" In effect I am what is, the ultimate cause, and it is by faith that we understand this, and faith alone. We will never figure out the ultimate cause until it is revealed to us in heaven.
God has chosen us and the only question that remains is, Will we choose him?
Sadly most won't!
- SuperDelegate
February 22, 2009 10:23PM
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It just doesn't matter!
Whether a construct labeled “God,” by humans as an explanation for the origin of the universe exists, or its attributes been accurately described, appears of little import. There is no reliable set of procedures to govern its behavior or its effects on humanity. This is not to say that such constructs have no value There are many theoretical constructs that we put to everyday use – electricity, atoms, electrons, etc.
I find it very difficult to justify making an unmanageable, invisible, and unobservable phenomenon so much a part of what motivates people to think and behave as they do. Specifically, teaching children to rely on, pray to, or make requests of this construct seems particularly unproductive.
Just as new learning in evolutionary biology have opened our understandings of both human motivation and behavior, so too are we discovering that both core morality, and a propensity to respond to supernatural explanations for events is deeply wired in the human brain.
- ssteffin
July 26, 2008 6:03PM
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“Einstein said Bible has childish ideas”
From Letter revealed May 08
There are plenty of people with high IQ's, but that doesn't make them right on everything. Remember, they say a Harvard Grad can be distinguished by the ability to "speak eloquently, and at length, on subjects they know absolutely nothing about." Of course, Einstein was smart enough to not even try something like that. He rejected silly ideas people have come up with about the Bible and accepted what he understood from colleagues in Biology.
If Einstein pictured cute little animals on a cute little boat, and Mt. Everest covered by water coming from rain, then yes, that's a silly story. If he pictured a red colored guy with horns, pitchfork and funny tail, then yes, that's a silly story. If he thought that the Bible teaches that the world is flat, or that the solar system revolves around the earth, or that the earth is supported by some structure rather than floating in space, then yes, those are silly stories.
But that's not what the Bible says
- JayBrook July 29, 2008 2:23PM
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Response
"If the universe has laws as you say, then you must be intellectually honest enough to say that those laws had to come from somewhere." Fair enough. Scientists are smart enough to hypothesize on what we don't know and most importantly, able to admit that we just plain don't know.
What we do know is that some silly sky wizard who preaches his own perfection while immaturely committing genocide against entire populations did not create this world.Holy texts are rife with errors and out right lies.
As for your other bit: "An interesting argument indeed. Why does science have laws? Why do we accept that there is a natural order (design?)." Order DOES NOT equal DESIGN. That's the worst misconception I've heard yet. There is no order in nature. There is chaos.
Our universe is the expenditure of energy and mass towards entropy (chaos). Natural selection and evolution happen randomly, chaotically. Everything is chaos - pure and simple. Just because there appears to be order in chaos...
- betterth
July 31, 2008 5:23AM
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"Thats not what the bible says"
"But that's not what the Bible says..."
You're right. The bible says to kill gays and to kill unbelievers. It preaches hatred and discrimination in the worst way. It pretends that it preaches a holy, merciful message. But it legitimizes hatred, intolerance and murder.
The ironic part is your precious Bible isn't even original. Your silly creation stories (yes, your bible has more than one of them) can be found in Sumerian texts that predate the old testament by centuries, even millenia. Which makes sense - the Hebrew tribes would have been decendent from Sumerian tribes. In fact, most of Genesis (the Ark and the flood? Pah-leeze) can be very easily traced to earlier, non-jewish stories.
But I'm sure it's just god spreading seeds of dissent to test the resolve of believers. Keep denying logic, fact and the truth of your very existence. I'm sure your god is pleased.
- betterth
July 31, 2008 6:13AM
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It's irrelevant
Whether or not there is a god doesn't matter. There is, or there isn't. What matters is whether the existence of god is relevant to our lives. Obviously, if there's no god, it is not relevant.
Just as clear: if there is a god, we can never know its nature (or alternatively, we can only understand god through faith without proof; same thing.) This is the only possible way to explain the complete lack of real evidence.
If there is a god, but we can never know its nature, then the only way we can get some relevance from god is to believe in a version of god that is relevant. But this version is a complete guess! That's self-delusion; instead we ought to just think honestly about what is morally right and wrong.
Another way to think about it: if god's relevance is to give us a moral code, then either the moral code is right in itself (in which case we don't need god to get it) or, the moral code is arbitrary and we should ignore it.
- mj75
July 31, 2008 8:54AM
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For something to exist, we observe it or evidence for it
Naturally, for something to exist we must be able to either observe the god itself or observe other things that prove its existence. I know my dog exists because I can see him, touch him, etc. It is extremely reasonable to believe electrons exist because of the massive amount of observable indirect evidence for their existence.
Now, obviously we cannot directly experience god. We cannot see him, touch him, etc. Therefore, we must observe indirect evidence of his existence. Unfortunately, there is none. The only "evidence" religious people use is attempting to DISPROVE the big bang, evolution, etc -- not PROVE that THEIR side is correct. Why? Because they have no evidence. No archaeological evidence for a Garden of Eden, no direct link between prayer and healing, etc.
Suppose there is a god. For something to exist, it or evidence for it must be observable. However, neither a god nor evidence for a god's existence can be observed. Therefore, a god does not exist.
- Syx August 2, 2008 5:20AM
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Existence is the Evidence
Existence is the evidence for a Self-Existing Being.
- Screen Name
April 8, 2009 2:57AM
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defining as undefinable isn't a definition or an argument!
weedonald said: "It is philosophically,logically and scientifically impossible to prove that God exists or does not"
I totally agree, and defer you to Occam's Razor.
You completely define your own god out of existence and try to claim that helps your case somehow. You provide absolutely nothing other than to claim your claim cannot be claimed, unclaimed, or counter-claimed solely by claiming it is so. God doesn't exist because he can't exist, by definition from BOTH sides of the argument.
Why don't mono-theists understand that their belief in a god, is no different than believing in gods. Mono-theists think it's foolish to believe in multiple gods, but are aghast and dumbfounded when someone doesn't believe in their god. All forms of god-worship are simply a waste of the persons time and energy. Only atheism and agnostism are intellectually honest positions as only they are willing to admit that they have not seen or heard OBJECTIVE evidence that the laws of physics can be false.
- Rice klowN
August 4, 2008 12:30AM
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In response to cmseth
User cmseth wrote, "You make the assumption that God created matter and therefore created the universe. Have you ever considered the idea that God simply organized existing matter to form (not create) the universe?"
I thought the whole point of a god was being the creator. Supposing that there was matter around before a god came into existence undermines the very definition of a god. Your argument means that god arose from matter, and that matter is the ultimate creator of the universe and not a god. This makes zero sense at all.
- Syx August 4, 2008 9:57AM
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Unanswerable
There is no direct evidence of a god. All human civilizations have developed their own unique way of explaining the universe. However during the present time, science is the best bet to explaining the universe.
Therefore, as for science not being able to explain god, there should be no god. Alas, science and mathematics do not reveal the entirety of the universe. What is disturbingly unexplainable within science that even crosses the boundary into philosophy is that energy yields infinity. In that context, the universe can have a infinite amount of different alterations and complexities.
So, it would seem clear that a god could possibly exist in some point in time, perhaps even responsible towards to creation of the universe, however, there is no direct evidence. Faith seems to be the only evidence religious people have toward their logic in religion. That's not enough for me.
The existence of a god cannot be proven. I believe this debate will long outlive the universe and all life
- Dave Yas August 5, 2008 3:51PM
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Provided definition fails to win ground for the atheistic argument
I categorically disagree with the definition of God provided here because while trying to provide a definition that will encompass all religions, it denies multiple beliefs. Many religions believe, as did Plato about his "God of the forms," that God does not make the laws that rule the universe, but rules by the transcendent laws that are already in place. This being said, a multiplicity of religions believe that God did not create the universe's matter and energy, and nor does he have the power to do so. Also the argument of providing a definition of God to disprove denies one of the fundamental basics of argumentation- in order to disprove anything, you must disprove it within its own framework. For example, to disprove zuess you cannot make up your own definition. It is the same with God. The ontological argument would therefore assert that God must exist universally, because in order for the atheist to disprove God, they have to first accept the definition- which is that he exists
- jdefriez August 6, 2008 1:47PM
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Fails to disprove- at all.
The only God you disprove with your arguments is the one that you have created within your own mind. In order to disprove any framework of belief, you must adopt that framework and disprove it within itself; therefore, you cannot define God. Because you have failed to disprove God in every sense of the term, your arguments cannot be valid. For example: you have failed to disprove one of philosophy's most famous examples of God- Plato's God of the forms. Plato believed that this God ruled by transcendent laws that existed already, and transcended even God himself. This definition meets your argument, and therefore your argument inherently fails to provide any offense, and disproves nothing.
- jdefriez August 6, 2008 1:54PM
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No God has ever really existed, it's always been mumbo jumbo.
There is zero evidence of any Gods being real.
All Gods and all religions are human fabrications.
Fabrications perpetrated by the least sane members of our human collections. Volcanos are not Gods or Goddesses. Thunder is not due to Zeus throwing lightning bolts around, nor Thor throwing his magic hammer at angry giants. Bushes are not gods, (even though "W" thinks he is.) Pillars of fire are not Gods, & doves do not impregnate underage Palestinian women. From Anubis, Osiris, and Ra to Zoraster, Zeus, and Odin, and on to Cheeseus Crust, YawhnAway, AllahtaSwaller, and Baba Yaga, Ron Regan, W, and Paris Hilton... Gods are, and always have been, HUMAN CONSTRUCTS... The evidence is clear though, that only the most credulous, weak minded, gullible, irrational, lead poisoned, inbread, and saddly brainwashed of our human tribe believe that there ever was or is such a thing as a "God".
- Principia1687
August 19, 2008 6:16PM
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Is there a God?
There is a God and he lives in all of us.
- Enjoy Cannabis
August 27, 2008 4:51AM
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Metaphysics vs. epistemology
"Is there a God?" is a metaphysical question that asks about the nature of reality. To paraphrase: "Does a God exist as part of reality?" This is the WRONG question to be asking. We should be asking "Is there any reason to believe in God?". This is an epistemological question that relates to MAN'S KNOWLEDGE concerning the nature of reality.
I am open to the existence of a God, but only if I am presented with objective evidence that one exists; evidence that cannot be explained more plausibly by another hypothesis. This view is common sense. Arbitrary assertions are not true until proven false, they are false until proven true. This is as true about the assertion "God exists" as it about the assertion "invisible elephants live on Mars". The burden lies with those making the positive claim to prove it. Hence, theists must prove God exists, and until they do, I have no reason to believe in one.
Of course, since faith is belief WITHOUT evidence, I'm not even sure why theists WANT to prove that God exists. Proof would destroy faith. Evidence would turn faith into science, and would reduce God to an analyzable PART of the natural world, demoting him from his position as the supernatural Creator.
- SidAirfoil
September 3, 2008 11:36AM
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Unanswerable
This question, while it is explored by nearly every person alive, is one which is unanswerable to any extent beyond personal opinion. The biggest problem here is the issue of definition. Specifically what does 'God' mean? I have found all definitions to be either lacking or completely disprovable. Now, simply because I have not heard or seen a satisfactory definition does not tell me that one does not exist. This brings me to the next problem: were there absolutely no actual evidence of the existence of God(s), from a logical standpoint, one still cannot rule out the possibility. So both sides here have a major issue, the YES crowd has the burden of producing a definition that cannot be disputed, and the NO folks have the burden of definitively proving nonexistence, which cannot be simply achieved by a lack of evidence. I'm not saying neither can be done, but the nature of the question is such that, to me, it seems highly unlikely that either side can complete their task appropriately. One question I have after all this: If you knew the answer to the 'God' question once and for all, would it significantly effect your life in any way?
- roy1167
September 4, 2008 12:45AM
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And the evidence is?
The real question to ask about any proposed god - Allah, The Christian God, Thor, Zeus or whoever is "What evidence is there for the existence of this being?"
This is exactly the same question that one could ask about unicorns, fairies, Steve Jobs or Paris Hilton.
In the case of the last two the is testable empirical evidence which can be pointed to. In the case of Zeus and the unicorn this evidence is lacking.
We are quite happy to accept that such lack of evidence is sufficient for us to dismiss the existence of Thor and fairies. Logically we should take the same lack of positive evidence to dismiss the existence of Allah and the Christian God as well.
- Bob M September 11, 2008 2:02PM
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There are gods!
Remember the old testament in the Bible uses the word Elohim in ancient hebrew. In fact Psalms 82:1,6 talk about "gods." But if we talk about the Cause of the Creation of the Universe, yes God the Father is He.
- enton September 16, 2008 4:51AM
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A "Agnostic Christian's" View...
Yes, that is what I label myself. I am a fairly devout Christian (Episcopalian) that attends church regularly and prays often. However, I cannot, and nobody can, say with 100% certainty that there does exist a God/Gods, thus I do have what you would call a little bit of doubt as well. We all do, we're being dishonest with ourselves if we say we don't.
Here's what I DO NOT believe: earth is 6,000 years old. I don't see how ANYONE can believe that nonsense. The watchmaker argument. Pretty much anything put out by CSE and that tax-evading conman Kent Hovind is to be disregarded as utter bogus.
- bagpiper2005
September 27, 2008 1:52AM
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nobody
THE fool has said in his heart there is no GOD...QUOTE from the bible.
AS a human with an intelligence only format, I would have to conclude that: I DON'T know ...SO to, would any other unbiased human....To be able to say one way or the other would set YOURSELF up to have a GOD attribute,that of knowing ALL...I won't go there ...I will go to my faith that swears to me that GOD does exist ;as HE has revealed himself to me several ways ....(1) NATURE & surroundings ,(2)THE revelation of GOD through CHRIST JESUS & HIS Life,Death &(RESURECTION)...RESURRECTION being the key element in human terms....
(3)The gift of GOD & HIS understanding which I have,& THAT, the faith to believe COMES from somewhere BESIDE myself ,for I witnessed a HEART or CORE change within myself, when I accepted HIS terms of SALVATION...I cannot deny what testimony HE has imparted to me & I cannot deny MY own experience & experiences of others that are similar to mine in this REALM....
(4) HE has directed my thoughts & actions to be someone, I ,in myself am not...HE has apparently ,by deed & actions changed my heart as HE said HE would...HE & I cannot deny those facts & testiment...Therefore I Within myself must conclude that GOD does exist per my life story & predestination set in motion by a force beyond MY control ....That force, or SPIRIT, as most refer to; is indwelt & locked, sealed my fate ...
I no longer am my own self ...I have been bought with a price & am sealed to that which I believe,AS told,is: MY ETERNAL LIFE....CHRIST in ME is ETERNAL LIFE .HE & I shall go on together after this natural death...HE said it I didn't ...I believe HIM for it ....
- nobody October 1, 2008 8:47AM
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The artist behind the art around us
Everywhere in nature, in flowers, in trees, in leaves, in animals, in mountains, and in women is beauty. Is it just that it has become beauty because we have been around it so long? or is there a common brush stroke, a style. Like that that can distinguish a Monet from a Rembrandt. There is a common brush stroke, a golden ratio, a golden curve, the fibonacci series that is repeated throughout nature, and is present in all things we preceive as beauty. There is no survival reason for it, no reason for it to have evolved. It is art for the sake of art, and the artist is God. To look around you and not see the hand of the artist is the same as assuming the Mona Lisa was created by accident when a house painter was cleaning his brushes on some canvas.
Beauty in nature is what has instilled in man a sense of God even in times and places where there was no religion, or writing, or even language. Go to Yosemite, look around and think which is more outragous, that it is all accident or art created by an artist.
- Russell
October 11, 2008 8:04PM
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I feel sorry for all the people who believe God does not exist.
Reason is the enemy of faith.
"Faith is not an emotion. It is objective trust placed in a very real God."
"Don't worry about proving God's existence, because no one can disprove it."
"If you"re wondering how God speaks, commands, and leads-read the Bible."
Nature itself testifies of God existence and so does your conscience. People who refuse to retain God in their knowledge it is because they don't want to change.
- Tamara
October 13, 2008 11:23AM
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Believing in Someone!
Isn't it amazing that Mankind still debates the existence of God?
Man isn't sure that he believes in God,...yet all the while God still believes in Man, and extends His hand in creation of the foundation for reconciliation and the offer is still open while Man breathes.
Hebrews 11:1 offers us confidence that even as God believes in His own existence and the existence of Man, Man has the opportunity to believe in God with confidence.
The LORD has apparently never seen the NEED to prove his existence because He doesn't need it! He KNOWS He exists!
On the other hand, Man HAS apparently often questioned his own existence, ergo a statement of belief in Man's own existence was necessary to be codified, "I think! Therefore, I am!"
If Man who is often agnostic about his own existence can't use the Five Senses to verify this simple premise, why then does Man thinks that God can trust Man with greater knowledge of God's existence?
If man questions what he CAN see, and demands that God show himself in order to make Man believe, how then is Man really going to believe (should God chose to "jump through that hoop") when he already questions the SEEN?
With all due respects, Man is a religious being! Belief toward God or Belief away from God is a presupposed position held-to religiously that rebels against logic tenaciously!
An atheist may call me illogical, but only if he or she is willingly to wear illogical as a moniker, too! :)
- WinBro777JOT
October 20, 2008 7:55PM
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The very structure of the Universe
To me, I saw laws of nature and existence all around me. There are physical and mathematical laws the govern the universe and they are in place and absolute. These were in place before we got here. Where did these "intelligent" and "Complex" laws of nature come from? Think about it.
Keith
- Flatbadger
October 27, 2008 3:06PM
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Broaden your perspective than judge
Well. I consider myself nonreligious, leaning a bit more towards atheism. Yet many unanswered questions persist besides 'Is there a god?'
Is there a goddess? Gods? Or simply a 'divine force' . How much influence do these forces/beings have on our daily life? Do they judge? Or do they exist simply to give humans morality, hope, and of course answers to the unknown? Endless possibilities and interpretations exist.
So study various religions/philosophies/schools of thought: Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, Sikhism, Buddhism, Judaism, Shinto, Wicca, Zoroastrianism, Free thought, Druze, Secular humanism, etc whatever.
For example, instead of watching TV, read a religious text you haven't read before. Compare it with other texts. Have fun. Convert to another religion for one day. Create your own cult. Examine each sides' evidence and teachings. Be inquisitive. But try not to religiously offend anyone.
You'll learn a lot and broaden your perspective whether you're atheist or Muslim or Christan or etc.
Openmindness + learning = enlightenment
(BTW Godless is a fiction novel for teens. Its about a agnostic boy named Jason who creates his own religion. It calls for worshiping a water tower. Friends and foes join this cult over time. However, trouble eventually tears Jason's organization apart.
I highly recommend it regardless of one's age because the story illustrates many interesting insights about life. )
- jizu
October 27, 2008 11:55PM
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I'm a Deist
I believe in God, but I consider myself a Deist. I think that he gave me the logic and the power of knowledge to question a lot of things such as this subject that is very debatable. I also think that there should be separation between church and state because the idea of America was to have people worshiping what they wanted. I think people have the right to believe what they want, and if you want to be an Athiest it is fine with me.
- EKolacny
November 2, 2008 4:49PM
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"Ye shall know them by their fruits..."
Is their a Creator or not? Sometimes I feel we debating vast topics such as this, the first creation and original divine purpose is much like two ants walking a beach arguing how many grains of sand there are and how they got there. They thought the earth was round once you know. All we know by way of science is by experimental. If there was a God, you'd think there'd be a better way. There is. A witness far better than sight. If I may, I'd like to step aside the intellectual bottleneck and offer this simple idea:
You can judge a lifestyle by its effects like you can judge a tree by its good or bad fruit. To believe there is no God is to believe in no afterlife because when brain functions end, thats it. End of story. How utterly pointless would it all be then. Whats the point? There would be none. On the contrary however, if there is God, lets say our Heavenly Father, then there is no end with ceasing of simple brain function. There is much more beyond the veil of our understanding, and we can peak through and know if we are willing to receive it and and act upon it.
Another idea is this: Here I am in this body, there you are in yours. That is no accident. There are trillions of living things on this earth. Plants, Bacteria, Animals, etc. But, here you are as a human being with the capacity to think, reason and act; free will. The apes didn't have that. I've never heard of an ape committing suicide yet Humans do it all the time sadly. I testify that God lives. He is active in our lives and he does manifest himself to us. He has to me and I'm not crazy. There, you have my witness; dont believe just because you haven't had the same, because at some time we all will have that experience and all will know the truth. I dont understand all things but this I know. Heres the words of an ancient prophet, see if this is a good answer for those requesting a sign:
"43 And now Korihor said unto Alma: If thou wilt show me a asign, that I may be convinced that there is a God, yea, show unto me that he hath power, and then will I be convinced of the truth of thy words.
"44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of aall these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the bearth, and call things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its dmotion, yea, and also all the eplanets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator."
You'll be surprised at the answers you can find:
http://www.mormon.org /
- SaintElmosFire
November 2, 2008 9:46PM
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The question is...
Which is primary? Consciousness or Existence? I submit that consciousness without existence is a contradiction. Without existence, what is there to be conscious of?
- itsmytrain
December 8, 2008 8:19PM
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what is sience
we are only human how do we know what sience is. sience could be god working.
- kenn13
December 13, 2008 10:24AM
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I don't think so
Come on, do you really think that if there is a god who watches over us, they will just stand by and let us suffer? Yes, I know that some things are our fault, but bad things happen to innocent people. If God is heartless enough to let someone get raped or murdered and not do anything about it, I wouldn't want to worship him anyway.
- madninjamonkey
December 14, 2008 10:14PM
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Is it an Agrument or a question?
If it is a question ask your self . If it is an argument only time will explain you clearly.
- yogeek
January 10, 2009 12:50AM
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The existence of GOD
There is something I would like to share with you in relation to the existence of GOD and the validity of the Bible. It is interesting to learn that until today the extinction of dinosaurs is still a big mystery to human race. There are so many theories suggested regarding this mass extinction; such as the climate changes, a big asteroid fell to the Earth, etc. In fact, if we look at the Source of the History itself, we will definitely find the answer to this question. Actually, back then in the time of dinosaur, the whole Earth (without exception) was covered by the cloud (waters) (GENESIS1:7) to protect it from direct exposure or radiation of the Sun. This cloud functioned as a filter and “temperature stabilizer” (like having central air condition in a house) for the Earth. As a result, the whole Earth had the same temperature everywhere (whether in the North Pole, South Pole or the Equator - the temperature were the same). Due to this condition, the vegetation and environment in those days were very different from what it is now. The Land was much larger and bigger than the Sea (not like today) so as to accommodate and support the lives of so many giant creatures like dinosaurs on Earth. The question is, how did they become extinct all of the sudden (not even a single one exists but the bones and skeletons)? If there was a major catastrophe struck the Earth, then how come humankind and small animals could survive? If there was only a certain part of the Earth was hit by a meteorite or an asteroid, then how come “all” the dinosaurs disappeared but not other creatures?
If we look back at the History of the Earth (as told in the Oldest History book, the Bible), there was a certain time when there was a great flood took place on Earth. How could this happen? This could happen because the Dome of the Clouds above the Earth had been torn out and fell down in form of a big rain flooding and submerging all over the Earth (which was in Noah’s time). As a result, the amount of water on the surface of the Earth had increased dramatically and formed what is called the Ocean. From this time on the size of the Water area has become much larger and bigger than the Land area. And at the same time the Earth has become too exposed to the radiation from the Sun which has increased the Earth’s temperature drastically from what it used to be (which has left it without “temperature stabilizer”). From this time on, the temperatures in the North Pole, South Pole and Equator are quite different because they depend on the rotation of the Sun (just like in an air conditioned house when the doors and the windows are wide opened, certain places or rooms in the house have become too hot than the others). The same with the dinosaurs (if any of them survived from the flood), which used to live in a temperate world and environment, suddenly with the climatic changes had become too fragile and died out. Even for us today, with only a slight change in temperature due to the change of the seasons (from warm summer to cold winter) prone to get flu and other types of diseases, not to mention a drastic climatic change for dinosaurs which used to live in a temperate world. Consistent with the History as told in the Bible, only Noah and his family and all the passengers in the Ark were survived to live in the “New” Earth. And for the first time they could see the blue sky right after the Dome of the Clouds had been torn down in form of a big rain which caused the big flood. Before the flood there had never been any rain on Earth because the temperature on Earth was stable and the same everywhere under the Dome of the Cloud. This is proved by the Rainbow which was the first time showing as a sign after the flood. Based on this it confirms that there was no rain before this time because rainbows will only appear as the droplets of water reflecting the light.
Before the big flood took place (when the Dome of the Clouds was still intact), the age of the creatures was longer than today (they could live up to hundreds of years).The ancestors of Noah lived up to hundreds of years (according to the Oldest History book or the Bible).This could happen only because there was no radiation (from the Sun) which has caused aging process.
In conclusion, all these things show to us the validity of what is written in the “Oldest History Book” or the Bible. Even the Earth is round also mentioned in this book (JOB 26:10) far before the Columbus.
- speedy1485
January 21, 2009 8:29AM
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I change my vote from "uncommitted" to "no"
As I start my doctoral program in biomathematics, I discover that there is absolutely no room for a deity in the advancement of human intellect, science, and mathematics. There is not enough evidence to suggest a deity, therefore the null hypothesis of there not existing one is not rejected if you follow the laws of statistics properly.
- bagpiper2005
January 25, 2009 11:41PM
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lack of proof
there is a lack of valid physical/mathematical proof on both sides, so i think this issue is up to the reader to decide
- Stormwolf
February 12, 2009 8:04PM
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The burning bush and the "The theory of everything."
When Moses encountered God he had the good sense to ask him his name.
The burning bush replied, "I am who am." God was sending a message through the ages to us today. Today, we are searching for the underlying power that ties everything together, the string theory, the quantum matrix, dark energy, and the "god" particle.
The "dark energy" that we now theorize is the matrix that holds the universe in place is the essence of God's concienceness. God is the matrix. His son is the human embodiment of his power and has existed before creation, though he was born of a young woman 2000 years ago.
A mystery, not so much, quantum theory now tells us that time is not as real as we percieve. We know that matter can exist in many places at once. So then it follows that man and God can do it as well. Therefor God can be born in 3 AD, but have existed at creation. In fact, creation, the birth and death of Christ, and the Revelation can occur simultaneously.
What physcisist are trying to find is the ultimate cause, but the burning bush gave us that answer thousands of years ago in the desert.
It is possible CERN may solve the riddle and yield the "God" particle and in doing so it may also open the door to heaven, ------it may be that in this time, God wants us to find him ------ again!
- SuperDelegate
February 22, 2009 9:58PM
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A relevant scientific fact
There is a fact that goes by the name "The First Law of Thermodynamics." While usually presented as a long mathematical equation, it can be briefly summarized: Matter may be converted to energy, and energy can be transformed into matter, but the sum of matter/energy never changes.
The amount of matter/energy in the Universe today is the same as it was at the moment of the big bang! And it all had to be created!
- Murray
March 6, 2009 6:39PM
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The One Minute Case For Atheism
Atheism is the lack of belief
Atheism is the lack of belief in the existence of gods. It is not a belief system or a religion but the denial that supernatural beings exist. There are atheists with all sorts of philosophies and beliefs.
You’re already an atheist
Even if you believe in a god, you probably don’t believe in other gods - Zeus, Osiris, Jupiter, Thor, Allah or Jesus. It’s hypocritical to be skeptical in the holy book, revealed prophets, miracle stories, or holy men of all religions but yours. You are an atheist when it comes to everyone else’s gods, so why give your god a free pass?
The burden of proof is on the theist
Can you prove that an invisible pink elephant is not floating above your head? How does one prove a negative in the absence of evidence? Theists make the exceptional claim that there is a god. That claim requires exceptional proof. The burden of proof is on the theist to prove God exists.
By using reason and science , humans have been expanding our knowledge of the world. Yet religionists continue to claim that there exists a supernatural realm immune to reason. Where is their proof? If a god is needed to create the universe, what created God? Rather than offer proof, mystics have often tried to silence and discredit those who reveal the complexity and majesty of the universe.
There are natural explanations for the universe
What keeps flowers from turning into rocks, or rocks from floating in the sky? It’s not the will of a supernatural deity, but the fact that flowers are not rocks, and gravity keeps things on the ground. The universe operates according to causal principles, without the need for any supernatural power to keep things from getting chaotic.
Morality does not require religion
Religious texts can offer moral guidance, but they are not the source of moral principles. Humans discovered long ago that following certain rules makes life more productive, peaceful, and pleasurable. Morality derives from human nature, not divine guidance. If one wishes to live a virtuous life, it is better to do so because of the earthly rewards of being virtuous rather than the fear of eternal punishment. Unlike a theist, an atheist knows that one life is all he has, and will try to live each day to the fullest.
- HeroicLife
March 31, 2009 2:19PM
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Explain to me please the burden of proof
And why, precisely, it is on the person proposing the existence of an object. If you propose a pink elephant is floating above my head, it doesn't mean that you must therefore prove it. I can live my life as if there is a floating invisible pink elephant, or I can live my life as if there is no elephant. If you believe all believers in any deities require a change of behavior from the world, then you are mistaken.
You originally defined athiest as "the denial that supernatural beings exist" and went on to posit that since most individuals profess to one single religion and deny all others, they are already atheists. This is inconsistent with your definition. Despite my disbelief in Zeus, or more accurately, my unwillingness to change my behavior to reflect the validity of the assumption that Zeus exists, I still may believe in other deities. Also, you're assuming that every religious person approaches their own belief with a lack of skepticism, uncritically and wholly. This is simply untrue. Look over this site and you'll see examples of people examining the ideas of faith , but still remaining faithful.
From your last post, with the fear of eternal punishment reference, I believe you may have confused "Theist" with "Christian". Please do not equate "Belief in a God" with "Belief in Hell".
- quantummechanik
April 1, 2009 11:33PM
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Meaningless variety
Take the sweetest, most doting church lady. She feeds the ducks, gives every penny to her fellow humans in need, is always ready to help, has the nicest smile and everybody loves her. If such a lady bears witness of a loving god , you'd almost want to believe her. If she says "god forgives everyone" you nod and know there isn't such a horrendous thing as hell, and you feel safe and comforted and know there is something better after all.
However for every ten sweet church ladies and uncles - I can show you several hundred complete drooling nutjobs, hypocrites, maniacs, racists, ranting sociopaths, populists, demagogues, liars, cheats, swindlers, irredeemable bastards, elitists, political monstrosities, xenophobe reactionaries, wolves in sheeps clothing, pedophyles, predators, thieves, fascists, warmongers, stormcrows, and much much worse.
At some point I have to conclude there is a wide diversity of humanity, and if this testament is any indicator of a all-knowing, merciful, all-powerful deity, the image has become fragmented and is less coherent than the flimsiest of fata morgana. I can not know of this deity through human beings, nor of word of mouth or claimed morality , or pretense, or firm conviction, or force of arguments. None of the above hold promise as would a desert vision of an oasis provide me with any promise or guidance.
In fact, it warns me. The acts of humans, separated from the few church saints that confirm the rule, is that those of god are untrustworthy, deceitful and immoral, by whatever standard I wish to envision. I can see so much possibilities, variants and things in this universe and thejob title of "god" loses all meaning in a greater context. Every glance on the universe makes me pause more, wonder more. There is mystery, there is a lot unknown - but the parochial, contrived monstrosity is only a testament to humanities fear and groveling submission to dictators and tyrants, and not to the faerie tale reality of a benevolent god.
It is saddening then, that so many people stay mired in this paradigm and with all their faculties cannot escape the clutches of what almost certainly is a deranged misconception of historic proportions. As I see human beings persist in their groveling for a menacing fata morgana, I feel nothing less than pity and disgust.
These are all nothing but infants terrified that daddy is going to hit them and send them to the cellar for having been bad.
- Khannea Suntzu
April 2, 2009 9:20AM
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Could it follow, then
That while there are a few thoughtful, interesting atheists, the majority are either rabid anti- religious zealots or people too ashamed to take responsibility for their actions in a supernatural sense?
A) Theorizing on the motivations of peoples you don't understand is, at best, pointless and at worst offensively stereotypical, and
B) The existence of any sort of divine or supernatural being cannot be based, at all, on the existence or behaviors of their adherents.
Fascists tend to be horrible people. It does not follow that fascism does not exist.
- quantummechanik
April 2, 2009 1:41PM
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No it would not.
A reply to your objection can be found here:
http://khanneasunztu.wordpress.com/2009/04/04/reply-to-someone-who-believes-in-something /
Guess I had some extra time on my hands :)
(I exceeded the word count for a reply)
- Khannea Suntzu
April 4, 2009 1:32AM
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And another thing
Quit confusing Christians and Muslims with everyone who believes in God. It's offensive.
- quantummechanik
April 4, 2009 2:38PM
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Merciful
Showing me "several hundred complete drooling nutjobs, hypocrites, maniacs, racists, ranting sociopaths, populists, demagogues, liars, cheats, swindlers, irredeemable bastards, elitists, political monstrosities, xenophobe reactionaries, wolves in sheeps clothing, pedophyles, predators, thieves, fascists, warmongers, stormcrows, and much much worse" would show the deity is merciful. Sweet church ladies and uncles were probably like one of those at some point.
- Screen Name
April 8, 2009 2:29AM
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The foundation...
The foundation of this debate is the false premise that God and science are mutually exclusive. They are not. Top scientists such as Einstein, F. Collins, Joel Primack, and others all, at least, believe in A supreme being, creator, etc. Many would argue that science is the ongoing discovery of God Himself.
The statement "There is no God" is scientifically reckless. It is a position which can not be supported by process and experiment. However, the inverse is also true.
Logically speaking, it is also unsound. If a human on earth can guarantee that there is no god anywhere in the universe, then they are claiming to be the very definition of god through their argument... an all-knowing being larger than life itself could only make such a claim.
As a scientist, I can not rightfully deny the equal possibility that God exists.
As a human, I choose to believe God exists.
- Rethynk
April 9, 2009 10:34AM
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I believe In God... Sort of...
When I think of God, I don't think of an all powerful man up in the heavens. I look at God in a metaphorical sense. I see God as a force, rather than a being. A force that controls all aspects of nature and the universe. We are all part of that force, for it is what gives us our souls. And in this belief I am content in the fact that I can believe in the ways of the Church and science , and find meaning in both their teachings.
- Just That Guy
May 20, 2009 9:23PM
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Who said God is a man
If people understood what they were reading in the book called, "The Bible", we wouldn't be asking the question "Is there a god "? The Bible says God is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Well let's find some truth here. Ever outlines a sentence before? God IS--is what? A Spirit. Now what is a Spirit and why is that word capitolized? The book is putting emphasis on the word "Spirit". Does that say God is a man? No. It says God is a Spirit. What is the definition of the word spirit? It is the thinking, feeling, motivating part of man. Spirits or feelings motivate us to do certain things. Again, the Bible says that "God IS love". God IS--is what? LOVE. Is Love a man or a feeling? In another verse it reads, GOOD IS GOD. Are we pronouncing that word God correctly? Is it really pronounced G-odd or is that word really GOOD? The Bible is a spiritual book. It's soul purpose to is convict man of his or her wrong doing in life. The Bible also says it IS the Book of LIFE. That is exactly what it is. It is about life itself. Why do people want to prove that there is NO GOD? Whether you atheists believe it or not--I bet you all have the Spirit of Love and Good living inside of you too. And I also bet that everyone of you can find your very own life hidden within the pages of that book called, "The Bible". Just keep reading until you see yourself in the mirror. One day you will be able to relate one of the stories to your life.
- lyntel
May 26, 2009 11:25PM
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YES HE LIVES
This is a no brainer,look around can nothing make nothing?
- zman
May 29, 2009 10:37AM
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sure there is a god
I believe that I am my own god . I choose where I am going and how I get there, and any bumps in the road is nothing more than random events or just plain old life obstacles. Is there a "god"? UMMMM...Maybe, but not in the sense of a life form as we know it and the way the bible portrays god. Personally, my beliefs follow the scientific path.
However, I do not think it is mine or anyone elses place to say there is or isn't. Its all in what you believe. Whether its the bible or scientific, as long as you have a belief that is all that matters. Hold on to what you believe and dont let anyone sway you unless you want to be swayed. To hell with what society thinks or the government or schools, believe what you want to and dont let go.
I have faith; I have faith in human nature.
- rkm
June 3, 2009 12:07PM
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There are many gods
too bad for them that they are all false. Have you ever noticed how gods want exactly what thier inventers want?
- oneoldman
June 16, 2009 7:31PM
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Ahh tribute to one liners
MRBOOK
"No, I say it 'is true' because the evidence strongly suggests that it is true."
What evidence?
"I find it rather interesting that you would name "Debating Design" then go on to talk about the flagellum... when one of the essays in Debating Design demonstrates how that flagellum is 'irreducibly complex'."
Whats your point?
"Yes, but also not very accurate. We do not know how variable gravity can be, it may be that there are only a few possible values for gravity to have. Saying that because we exist gravity must have this value is not a reasonable statement... rather we exist because gravity has that value."
Yes, fantastic so we agree. Gravity is only one of the many examples. And your argument on gravitation is what Collins is saying. Gravity has its exact value, Therefore we exist. Its a measurable parameter.
"I have never been a supporter of the "Rare Earth Hypothesis"
Supporter or not, the evidence is there.
and finally a challenge to you. Tell me what of life's origins? Where and how did life come about?
- rekiser
September 10, 2009 7:04PM
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double post?
This appears to be a double post… my reply can be found
http://www.opposingviews.com/comments/evidence--6
- MrBook
September 11, 2009 4:39PM
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Is there a God? No. But there should be.
My old girlfriend had Dissociative Identity Disorder – multiple personalizes. One of her alters was created from whatever part of the brain controls dreams. Her name was Shy. She remembers a time before she had consciousness, before she could come out and talk. If Freud had been right – Shy would have been pure superego She hardly ever spoke and used to write anything she wanted to say in a little pink notebook. She had beautiful cursive handwriting, and wrote so slowly that it would drive anyone nuts. She had no malice towards anyone, even her rapists and abusers. She was at peace with her small existence, and understood what would happen when her brain would start functioning better and she would die. One night we were having dinner with some friends. Shy was eating with us. We started talking about God. Finally we asked Shy
“Is there a God”
Shy thought carefully for a moment. The table went silent. Finally, she smiled and carefully wrote her answer and showed us her notebook.
No.
Then she thought for another moment, leaned across the table and whispered her first words in months.
“But there should be.”
- JackRKirby
September 20, 2009 1:43PM
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mmmm
Question: What created the matter and energy necessary to create the universe.
Basic Fact: "Every cell in plants, animals , and human beings has what is called a "complex metabolic motor". This is the ability of the cell to extract energy from its environment in order to supply energy for the reproduction of the cell and other cell needs. For life to exist, you must have this metabolic motor. But this metabolic motor can only be produced by life." (Dr. Ron Carlson) It's the same for DNA. So...if you believe in Spontaneous Generation aren't you going against the basic rule of biology (Biogenesis - life only arises from life. It does not come from nonliving matter) Or is nitrogen, ammonia, salts, and carbon dioxide living matter?
- Dylandts
October 17, 2009 10:42PM
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evolved
"For life to exist, you must have this metabolic motor. But this metabolic motor can only be produced by life." (Dr. Ron Carlson)"
The 'complex metabolic motor' is the end result of 3.5 billion years worth of evolution .
"It's the same for DNA. So...if you believe in Spontaneous Generation aren't you going against the basic rule of biology (Biogenesis - life only arises from life. It does not come from nonliving matter) Or is nitrogen, ammonia, salts, and carbon dioxide living matter?"
Biology dose say that modern life cannot arise from 'non-life' however the same is not true of the oldest forms of life which did arise from self replicating protens.
- MrBook
October 18, 2009 8:16AM
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Lol
Really that kind contradicts don't you think so? Or are we saying we must ASSUME that by chance this happened. Really to believe biology it involves a lot of assumptions.
- Dylandts
November 6, 2009 6:41PM
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contradiction?
I'm not sure I see the contradiction...
We are not saying that 'we assume by chance that this happened'.
What is said is that proto-life emerged from non-living matter, which then evolved into the more complicated life.
The initial reaction did occur, because if it did not we would not be here, but the exact probabilities that the reaction would occur in a given period of time are not yet known.
Biology, like any Scientific field is not something you 'believe in'... it is a series of models that describe observed physical phenomena.
- MrBook
November 6, 2009 7:19PM
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Lenghty post.
This one is going to be long.
First off. If there was a god who created everything, how would you...
Prove he exists?
Prove that he DOSEN'T exist.
Prove that he pointed at the ground and said "I want a cat there" and there came a cat.
Prove that he didn't make a couple of bacteria and work his way up from there.
Bad things happen because god made a world of order. It may look like chaos but it is an order. And for order to work some things have to happen every once in a while. If you have a large body pulling in on its self your going to have friction. That friction makes heat which melts rock. This rock makes a molten core which causes convection currents which makes; earth quakes, tsunamis and volcanoes.
Does the occurrence of these things prove or disprove god? It does neither.
Some people live in poverty , some suffer and live in pain and death. Does this mean that there is no god, or that if there is that he doesn't care? The bible says that he gave man free agency. If he were to pop down here and say hello to all of us, and help us out of our miseries what would happen to our agency? If he jumped in and made a murder stop, wouldn't he have just over ridden that murder's agency?
If you wanted to know how people to make certain decisions, would you let them know that your there and watching, or would you keep your presence unknown?
Where in the bible does it say that god condemns people to hell? What I read is that people condemn themselves, by not ever going back to god in the first place. As in "I don't belong there, might as well not try" not go back.
Why is there evil if there is a god? Why is there down if there is an up?
eh, I'll post more latter. Its like 3 am here.
- Nivarion
October 22, 2009 3:13AM
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