In a 2007 interview with beliefnet.com, John McCain stated that “the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation.” While some were encouraged by McCain's words, others took great offense, reigniting a passionate debate about the intentions of America’s founders. Was the U.S. built on Christian principles, or are we a purely secular nation?
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Republics and democracy are not biblical concepts. The Biblical form of government is monarchy. We rejected that in our revolution. Everyone's favourite word 'disestablishmentarianism' describes our revolution. The The Christian religion was disestablished at our revolution. Even before the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution there was the clause forbidding religious tests.
We get our democratic traditions from the Greek/Roman world. We do not get it from the Bible. The good example is the Ten Commandments. Two of the ten coincide with our legal history and those two coincide with all legal traditions. The parts about not coveting are in direct contrast to American democracy.
- KitG
October 1, 2008 8:38PM
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The framers of the constitution and our united states were mostly anti-christen. Don't argue at me I only told the truth, if you don't believe it read read read.
- oneoldman July 20, 2009 4:03PM
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I agree with the contention about the freedom of religious pluralism. It is unrealistic to expect that different religions can co-exist with one another without trying to dominate each other. Most religions, including Islam and Christianity, are predicated on the basis that their way is only true way. In validating their own view, they inherently invalidate any other view. Both Christianity and Islam have a goal of converting the whole world for their own religion. Neither religion is content with moral relativism. These ideologies, and similar ones found in many other world religions, create a spirit of competition between religions for superiority. When one religion is dominant, like America during the creation of our democracy, the others are not very evident. When the public starts preaching moral relativism other religions begin to grow and gain prominence. This is evidenced in America today, with Islam growing rapidly. When one religion is overthrown as in post-Christian Europe, the door is open for other religions to become the dominant religion of a nation. There will always be religions vying for the position of the most prominent religion of a nation.
- eaglesfan12089 October 5, 2008 8:22PM
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eagles fan 12089 wrote: "It is unrealistic to expect that different religions can co-exist with one another without trying to dominate each other. Most religions, including Islam and Christianity, are predicated on the basis that their way is only true way."
That is a prescription for a persecuted minority perpetually at the mercy of a delusional majority. The is precisely the dynamic that civil society is designed to prevent. In fact, that is the genius of our founding fathers who were dominated by the ideas of Freemasons who despised the rule of popes and imams. That is what has made America exceptional. Despite the frequently overwhelming power of primitive Christian cults, America has been in the main a place where many religions flourished, while none dominated. The attempt by Christians and now Catholics to dominate American liberty will — if successful — destroy Liberty in America. There is nothing else that is special about America that's worth preserving.
"Culture War" is civil war . That unnecessary and unwise division gives cynical politicians the power for economic domination. Is anyone really so stupid as to think that those who fund this foolishness care about our souls? It is the puerile divisions among us that these creeps exploit to profit from our weakness. Divided we fall.
- Joey Tranchina November 13, 2009 6:01PM
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I believe America was built on christian priniples in the sense that the founding fathers believed in "One nation under God". This can be seen all over historical manuscripts such as the "Decleration of Independence", to name one.
However it was never a Theocracy, nor was our great Nation ever meant to be one. Radical extremities was never to be our partisanship. On the other hand, the nation was to be based on tolerance and freedom for the "Pursuit of Happiness".
Yet, since the term "Christian Nation" differs from the term "Theocracy", It wouldn't be inaccurate to state that America was ounce a Christian Nation; being so that the overwelming marjority were fervent believers. Today however, this would not be as accurate. Meaning the United States of the 21st century is not a Christian Nation.
Habib Kimso
His 101
- habibk October 9, 2008 1:27AM
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The Pledge of Allegiance was not written until 1892, over 100 years after the founding of the nation. “One nation under God” was added to the pledge in 1954.
God is only mentioned once in The Declaration of Independence: “...the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them...” This sentence does not reflect Christian principles, nor does the rest of the document.
I know you didn’t mention it, but... Since the Constitution, the Presidential Oath of Office, money and the motto often are mistakenly thrown in with these as references to God in the founding, I’ll add them here too.
The Constitution doesn’t contain the word God. The Presidential Oath of Office requires neither the Bible nor the phrase “So help me God.” In fact, technically the Chief Justice should not prompt “So help me God” as it could be considered illegal or at the very least invalidate the oath. "In God We Trust" did not appear on money until 1864; and was not declared as the national motto until 1956.
Even with the mentions of God, Jesus –the very icon of Christianity- is never mentioned.
- Johnny April 8, 2009 5:23PM
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Our laws may agree with a lot of religions. No killing No stealing, But that doesn't mean this is a christian nation. We don't kill, not because god told us not to, we don't kill because it's wrong. It hurts people. We would always be at war with each other. I don't see why people can't be moral without being christian. Our laws make sense (most of them) to run a nation that isn't in total chaos. If you read enough into anything you can find what you want to see i.e. Religion
- Gavinsmama October 16, 2008 10:05AM
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This question is a big deal for me, especially as I gear up to place my vote for the November 4th election. I’ve been asking myself, do I seek to legislate my personal morality or go with what I think is arguably most practical? Reading both sides of the argument has been extremely beneficial to me in forming my personal opinion.
I realize that my founding fathers, who appear to hold to a Protestant worldview, created a secular government that would allow the free practice of all religion—that is to say, all religion did that did not conflict with basic Christian morality. “[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other,” says John Adams.
It doesn’t seem to me that violent sects like Satanism and Radical Islam would be included in that. (Nonetheless, I can’t help wishing that we would follow Australia’s example and lay down an ultimatum against radicals like Prime Minister John Howard who “invite[d] to leave” anyone who conflicted with what the country stands for. See http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/australia.asp .) While we cannot and should not attempt, that is, through the use of political power, attempt to curb the shift from Christianity toward pluralism, we must assure the censorship of anything that interferes with public peace or conflicts with basic Christian morality.
Next, Dr. Martin’s point is plausible. There should be no governmental persecution nor taxation of any sect or denomination (use of Jefferson’s “no injury to others” quote). But this specific restriction of government from religion should not be misconstrued to conclude that religion is restricted from the government.
Having said all that, I do have one point of hesitation about calling America Christian nation, and that is for the reputation of Christianity itself among the world at large. Not everything that our government involves itself in is the proper representation of the Christ in biblical Christianity. Therefore, when the rest of the world associates America’s foreign policy with Jesus’ campaign to the world for salvation, something is wrong. Nonetheless, this misappropriation (which can be resolved by clarification and education both by the church and by the government) is a risk I am willing to take. It is our Judeo-Christian morality that must undergird us, or our democracy will fail. Thank you, John Adams.
I fully agree with Dr. Vickery in that “the reinterpretation and outright omission of our founding documents” must be stopped. Yes, it must be stopped, and it must be stopped by bringing these documents back into the public awareness through education.
In short, yes, America is a Christian nation, in the loosest sense of the term. We are not a theocracy, as Vickery pointed out. We do not favor or give special privileges to one religion, as Martin mentioned. However, we do acknowledge our roots and realize that the same basic morality that our fathers held must never be left behind regardless of the current trend of popular belief.
- jesseprier October 18, 2008 3:39AM
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You say: “But this specific restriction of government from religion should not be misconstrued to conclude that religion is restricted from the government.”
Allowing religion into government would lead to religion running government, once religion is running government, government will begin regulating religion. Once the government is regulating religion we will no longer have freedom of religion . It is naïve to think otherwise.
- Johnny April 8, 2009 5:33PM
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"Every nation, however, must have a dominant belief system.."
Why? Who says so? Why does every nation need this? Maybe the empire that finally does NOT fall would be the one that has NO dominant belief system.
- TopCat October 20, 2008 12:06AM
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In this debate much has been made of the history of this nation's founding, and the thinking and personal beliefs of the men who founded it. But beyond historical analysis, a simple examination of the respective underlying principles of Christianity and the U.S. Constitution belie the argument that the latter is based on the former.
Briefly...
Christian morality is based on obedience to god's law. In contrast, the morality contained in the Constitution is based on respect for the rights of the individual human being. Christianity tells us what WE CANNOT DO by reason of god's law, while the Constitution tells us what CANNOT BE DONE TO US by virtue of our humanity. These are fundamentally opposite approaches to defining a moral code, a fact which cannot be reconciled with the notion that the U.S. is Christian nation.
I like to say that in the Constituion we have the Bill of Rights, while in the bible we have "The Bill of Wrongs" (i.e. the ten commandments). These two documents take entirely opposite approaches to limiting the actions of humans. Of course, biblical morality and secular morality do sometimes come to the same conclusions. For example, both moral systems conclude that murder is immoral. But to a humanist, murder is wrong because is violates the humanity of the victim, whereas to a Christian murder is wrong because it violates the law of god. Again,they are completely opposite, incompatible philosophies.
Paul Vickery is wrong. While there may be superficial similarities between Christian morality and the laws of U.S. as defined in the Constitution, they are SUPERFICIAL similarities, from which no cause-and-effect relationship can reasonably be inferred.
Sid
- SidAirfoil October 20, 2008 7:20AM
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Sid so sorry, but rights were not written for each individual person. It was written for the protection of ALL the GOOD PEOPLE. Good is the key word to draw water (knowledge) from. Read about the making of the Bill of Rights through the very first explanition of why it was written and who these rights were to protect. Our forefathers were not concerned about the individual rights of the bad or evil person. They were only concerned about the rights of a good person being mistreated and abused. Laws were made to protect the good in this land--not bad. Christianity is good. Christianity helps to produce good people and good WAYS. Rules of the Bible help keep people good. Believing in a God as our countries Supreme Ruler of the Universe keeps peace within our country. Look--people are not believing anymore and look at our country now. Paul Vickery is not wrong--you are. Sorry. The U.S. was a Christian nation--Is it now? I believe that even in today's world it is still a Christian Nation. I believe that there is more good people's WAYS of life in this world than bad. but today, the bad and evil WAYS of life are trying to take over the good WAYS in America. Jesus said, I AM the WAY--the truth and the life. Rights were made for the WAYS of people. WAYS is another key word to draw water (knowledge) from.
- lyntel May 20, 2009 6:25AM
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"Sid so sorry, but rights were not written for each individual person. It was written for the protection of ALL the GOOD PEOPLE. "
rights protect all people, not just the 'good' ones... The same freedom of speech that protects someone working for civil rights also protects racists...
"Christianity is good. Christianity helps to produce good people and good WAYS"
Though I do agree that Christianity can help produce good people it has produced bad people and bad ways... and that the same can be said of just about any religion out there (following religious teachings can make one more moral, but has also produced a laundry list of atrocities)
"Believing in a God as our countries Supreme Ruler of the Universe keeps peace within our country. Look--people are not believing anymore and look at our country now."
And is our country significantly more violent now then it was 20, 50, 100 years ago?
- MrBook May 20, 2009 8:09PM
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"Every nation, however, must have a dominant belief system, or worldview, that permeates the laws and practices of that state and binds its citizens together."
Can you provide proof that every nation must have a dominant belief system? Especially since our founding fathers and the documents they wrote for our country imply the opposite.
- mangueken November 23, 2008 12:28PM
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"America is a nation built upon Judaeo-Christian beliefs."
This is wrong. We are a nation built upon 18th-century French Revolutionary beliefs, reason and the Enlightenment, a healthy amount of Deism and agnosticism, and even Aristotelian political philosophy. Do not confuse the fact that there were many settlers who were Christian with what actually built the nation (i.e., reason and logic, not faith).
"These values emphasize the dignity and worth of every person..."
Except when it comes to pagans, homosexuals, and men who have sex with their wives during their periods. There are others, but I don't have time to write a book here. I'll just say this is blatantly false.
"Those who founded this nation through their writings and public service were certainly Theists who believed in the authority and significance of the Scriptures."
I am guessing that Dr. Vickery went to great lengths to figure out how he could word that statement to make it sound like all the founding fathers were Christians of his particular ilk. While many were indeed theists, they weren't of his kind of theism, that's for sure. Many (e.g., Washington, Franklin, Paine) were Deists. While Deism is indeed usually Judeo-Christian in its roots, I doubt Vickery would find himself nodding along to the stark reason of Deists, and so I find this statement of his misleading.
"Unfortunately this is no longer an option in the modern debate over issues. We rely more on feelings or the desire to justify our own wants and desires and can find some expert to agree with these."
I am finding it difficult to understand how looking to a man in the sky is any more reliable than justifying one's argument according to personal feelings. Both are problematic. One should use reason and logic, particularly when it comes to laws that affect people of all races and creeds, not what a 2,000-year-old book says or (in a number of cases) what the heart says.
"Every nation, however, must have a dominant belief system, or worldview, that permeates the laws and practices of that state and binds its citizens together."
Like Socialism? Communism? Islam? Those have worked beautifully. No. This is terribly illogical. What must define law is reason. Reason is achieved through objectively viewing situations. For example, though it may be very nice, as a Congressman, to sign into law something that will give you and your family a nice new luxury (for being a Congressional member), this not only affects you; it affects all of those who are not like you, who are paying for you to receive these said benefits. The reasonable thing to do, for the good of all, is to either benefit none or to benefit all. You can't, or you at least shouldn't, give precedence to those who specifically agree with you (or to yourself), unless you find their arguments to be reasonable. Good laws are those which only displace citizens who have broken the law; good laws are few in number; good laws are those which do not favor one party over another.
The idea of promoting a dominant belief system, without seeing the need for logic or fairness, is unbelievably scary. Those who do no agree with that dominating view, as in my example, must "pay" for it. That is not a free society, certainly not a fair one.
"The concept of a pluralistic society in which no one worldview underpins the foundational beliefs of that society describes a society in transition from one dominant worldview to another."
This is a red herring. Of course opinions change and cultures change, and this is noticeable, yes. However, it is my personal hope that laws only reflect this, insofar as changing with *advances* in knowledge (not fickle beliefs).
It is ironic, however, that any Christian could try to argue from the basis that Christians are united. There are more denominations than I can even count (and I am a minister's granddaughter); some agree with abortion , while others do not; some agree with homosexuality, while others do not; some believe in the death penalty, while others do not; some believe the world is ending, while others believe we're entering new, wonderful territory. Christianity has hardly united anyone under one set of laws (even the Ten Commandments) or one set of cultural norms, because it can hardly unite under its own three-in-one deity.
- leliathomas
December 10, 2008 11:38PM
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For a true student of world history to assert that the U.S. Constitution and laws are based on the bible of the Judeo-Christian sect is ridiculous. The Code of Hamurabi (sp.), on which our laws are truly based, far predates the concept of Christianity. It's even more foolish to claim that most religions are intolerant of the beliefs of others. Only those based on the old testament of the Judaic faith, that is, Judaism, Christianity (in all it's derivative sects), and Catholicism can be so described. While it is estimated that more than two billion people follow those faiths, there are nearly seven billoion people on our planet. That places those who are members of religions that seek to dominate all around them severely in the minority. Even were they not, it is the height of arrogance to assume that their religious beliefs should control the lives of those who do not share their beliefs.
- OddGrouch December 21, 2008 12:11PM
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While this is not as bad as most defenses of the " christian nation " thing, it still doesn't convince me. These values existed before and contemporary to christianity , and probably before Judaism. Further, just because the two religions influenced this nation, doesn't mean they lay claim to it's founding and heritage. This point is moot because regardless, there is nothing to gain or lose.
- ikenovak March 26, 2009 11:01PM
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I never knew slavery was an ethical law.
Based on anyone's ethics.
- userk April 17, 2009 3:50PM
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The suggestion that Judaeo-Christian beliefs form the basis for our constitution and legal code is an interesting one. Certainly, it has some merit since there is Biblical support for slavery and lack of rights for women, though this is hardly the case anymore.
The basis for the U.S. Constitution and law was in fact going against the religious government of Europe, which was more in line with the Bible's lack of mentioning individual rights. Religious freedom was built into the Constitution and regardless of the fact that many founders were deists, they made sure to ignore the Biblical suggestions of killing all non-believers. In fact, there's a lot in the Constitution and legal code that was never in the Bible or ten commandments--equality, personal freedom, etc.
- Blue Linchpin June 4, 2009 4:25PM
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you just totally butchered the truth here. So Christian Judaeo teaching promote enslavement and lack of rights for women. End statement. That is you. that lady.
- jxzac June 9, 2009 2:09PM
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And just in case you're willing to read your Bible for once:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
- Blue Linchpin June 10, 2009 5:54PM
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well, i'm goin to mention how irratinal your logic is. you're very prejudice, boisterous and ignorant. Your perceptions on what the 'Bible says' don't even attempt to be honest. It's not even an issue. You can be as dishonest as you want. Essentially, you don't see the need to be honest. it's better in your mind to exaggerate, embellish, and join illogical conclusions. We're really done at that point.
I'll just take this opportunity to explain some simple truths that you don't understand, nor see a need to. In essese we're all enslaved. We're enslaved by order. We're enslaved to gravity. No commercially, we're enslaved to pay your debts or face the penalties, and so on and so forth. You don't see things nor does it matter if you do. It doesn't matter to you. You don't need facts. It's about what you want to believe and what you want others to believe.
About women, oh boy. Essentially women are evil. The world bends to you and you don't even give it credit. You credit yourself. Not all women, but you do. It's a tribute to your glory. Women behave differently. For one, society treats them differently,secondly women come with an instinctive pragmatism. There needs be some science on this,but there's no interest. I would think, women exclude things where men try new things. I'm goin into a realm of conjecture but i think evidently, what i'm sugguesting it true.
Now back to what the Bible actually says. Woman will lead men away from God. It says that. True or False statement? Were there woman prophets? yes. But it's talking about the general woman. In short, God's not practical and women would be more earthy for the moment. They would also compromise a man's allegiance to an ideal. Though there were women prophets, church elders, and leaders. You don't understand what the Bible says nor are the things you suppose true.
- jxzac June 13, 2009 12:54PM
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Jxzac, you have provided some very good reasons why the US should not be a Christian nation... as living under Biblical law would be a horrendous affront to human rights.
"Your perceptions on what the 'Bible says' don't even attempt to be honest. It's not even an issue."
It seems to be very much the issue. Many examples have been given where the Bible says one thing that would appear monstrous to us... selling your family into slavery, beating a slave so hard that he/she dies... these are things that are seen as abhorrent by modern civilization.
"In essese we're all enslaved. We're enslaved by order. We're enslaved to gravity."
Enslaved to gravity? Without gravity everything would just be random atoms of hydrogen and helium, drifting through an otherwise featureless universe. How are we enslaved by order and to gravity?
"Essentially women are evil."
Really? Misogyny like that is unbelievable! What exactly makes women evil?
"There needs be some science on this,but there's no interest. I would think, women exclude things where men try new things. I'm goin into a realm of conjecture but i think evidently, what i'm sugguesting it true."
There actually is a good amount of research done into the neurological differences between the genders... and though there are differences there is no evidence that 'women exclude things where men try new things'. On what basis do you make that statement?
"Now back to what the Bible actually says. Woman will lead men away from God. It says that. True or False statement?"
Probably true... and that is a good reason to leave Christianity behind us.
"God's not practical and women would be more earthy for the moment. They would also compromise a man's allegiance to an ideal."
Well if God created women in a way as flawed as you suggest then I would have to say that he is more the not practical...
- MrBook July 1, 2009 6:05PM
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No women. Read 1 Timothy Chapter 3
- countryboy July 3, 2009 3:30PM
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Excluding women from where? And how does an argument from the bible apply secular country like the US?
- MrBook July 28, 2009 6:15PM
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Apparently the comment approvers find my factual, backed up response worse than your ridiculous claim (that pointing out a fact is akin to murder ). Wow.
I'm sorry, but there's really no excuse for Christians to be so ignorant of what's in their own Bible. It's a well-accepted fact that the Bible regulates and gives instructions on how slavery should work (which is, in effect, approval or at least nothing less than condemnation--and nothing less than condemnation is excusable, especially when from a so-called book of morals). In fact, the Bible was the major pro-slavery argument in the United States.
The Bible was also terrible when it came to women's rights. Women were taught as inferior to men, defective and not able to have as many rights. In fact, the Bible's pretty similar to Islam when it comes to women--don't leave the home without your massa'--I mean, husband or father or son. They were told to be submissive and in a nice little weaving of these two, fathers were given instructions on how to sell their daughters into slavery. Lovely, right?
Sources:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_bibl.htm
(As you see I've used the most unbiased source. I could easily have linked you to sources that absolutely tear the Bible apart for it's words on slavery and women. These, however, are more pro-Bible.)
- Blue Linchpin June 10, 2009 8:46PM
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And some quotes. Many from Leviticus, the same book the argument against homosexuality is from:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5)
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21)
Exodus 20:17 lists the last of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's." It is important to realize that a manservent and a maidservant were male and female slaves. They were not a hired butler and maid. The tenth commandment forbids coveting your neighbor's house, wife, male slave female slave, animals or anything else that the neighbor owns. The wife is clearly regarded as equivalent to a piece of property.
Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do." A father could sell his daughter as a slave. Even though a male slave is automatically given his freedom after 6 years, a female slave remained a slave forever.
Exodus 22:16-17: The first seventeen verses of Exodus 22 deal with restitution in case of stealing, or damage to, a person's property. Verses 16 and 17 deal with the case of a man who seduces a virgin. This was viewed as a property offense against the woman's father. The woman was expected to marry the seducer. If her father refused to transfer ownership of his daughter to the seducer, the latter was required to required to pay money to her father. The money would be in compensation for the damage to the father's property - his daughter. It would be difficult for a non-virgin to marry.
1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.
Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
1 Timothy 2:11-15 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.
1 Corinthians 14:34-36 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law . And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church .
- Blue Linchpin June 10, 2009 8:47PM
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Our Founding Fathers did fear God,and allowed him to guide them in the formation of this great country, and they were not Muslim.
- Pegleg4570 June 18, 2009 6:45AM
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Many of the founding fathers were Deists, this included the iconic ones like Jefferson and Adams.
- MrBook June 24, 2009 5:42PM
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At one time the United States was a Christian Nation. Was it written directly into the laws, no. But Americans were for the most part Christians. But no more. Lyndon Johnson had a problem. He was about to run again for the Senate and a few non-profit groups were against his reelection. July 2, 1954 he proposed an amendment to the tax laws that prohibited tax exempt groups from speaking out for or against elected officials. He had nothing against the churches it was just that they were also tax exempt groups. On that day they were silenced.
- mike1948 August 3, 2009 7:59PM
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SINFUL SILENCE. AMERICA IS ONLY AS CHRISTIAN AS WE ARE ACTIVE IN OUR COUNTRY AND I BELEIVE WE ARE A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY.
- truehappiness September 30, 2009 10:51AM
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We were founded on Judeo-Christian principles, which have served us well. We also have a long tradition of religious tolerance. Jewish Conservative commentators like Michael Medved and Dennis Prager have stated that because America is a (mostly) Christian nation, Jews have been able to thrive. I agree.
We don't demand that anyone be a Christian, nor should we, but we will be a lesser nation if we go the secular direction of Europe and throw away our heritage.
gary fouse
fousesquawk
- gary fouse October 9, 2008 7:00PM
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To understand the principles upon which this nation was founded, one should know some history. The colonists to America largely came from England, and recent British history for them would be the English Civil War followed by the Jacobite rebellion, both largely driven by religious differences between factions who all considered themselves "christian".
Here's just one small piece:
http://history.boisestate.edu/WESTCIV/english/04.shtml
The English Civil War was settled by Church of England dominance, a big reason why all those puritans came to America seeking "religious freedom".
And even that didn't totally end the strife, the Jacobite uprisings attempting to restore the crown to the catholic Stuarts ended only a few decades before the American Revolution.
All of that recent history of their mother country provided ample justification for the framers of our constitution to have a strong intent to keep religion out of government.
They were wise to keep them separate then, and we would be wise to not erode that separation.
- dsmccoy October 11, 2008 10:24PM
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Separation of Church and State? Absolutely. My point merely was that if we become a totally atheistic country, and our churches and synagogues become mere historical monuments a'la Europe, we will be much the worse off.
gary fouse
fousesquawk
- gary fouse October 11, 2008 11:44PM
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It is no business of our government whether people go to church and what church they go to. So if the churches are empty, that's a problem for the churches.
Do you seriously think the US is "better" than Europe in any significant way?
Your comment about us being worse off if the churches are empty is completely unfounded.
Religion is what people use to rationalize morality, not where moral principles arise.
- dsmccoy October 12, 2008 12:42AM
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I never said it was the business of govt. It is certainly not the business of govt. I just said the disappearance of religion would be unfortunate for our country. I also think the gradual disappearnce of religion in Europe has not been a good thing.
- gary fouse October 12, 2008 9:37AM
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You are welcome to your opinion of Europe.
But on a more objective measure, the last war in Europe was between religiously identified factions in the former Yugoslavia, (Serb-Orthodox, Croat-Catholic, Bosnian-Muslim).
And for the rest of Europe most of the worst violence in recent memory has all been due to non-assimilated Muslim immigrants. Religion sure wasn't the reason for the current attempts at reconciliation in Northern Ireland.
Do you have any objective measure indicating why the fading of religion in Europe has been a bad thing? Or is it just that your personal attachment to your own religion makes you nervous at the mere thought of its lack?
- dsmccoy October 12, 2008 11:03AM
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Was the last war in the former Yugoslavia between Croats and Serbs a matter of religion or ethnicity? If I recall, it was over ethnicity.
As for the issue of the non-assimilated Muslim immigrants, I don't think we are in disagreement there. When you talk about religious strife in the modern era (now) we are talking about Islam, aren't we? If present trends in Europe continue, Europe will, in about 2 generations, be majority Muslim. And guess what-they won't be secular.
As for my own religion, while I consider myself a Christian, I certainly am not an Evangelical.
- gary fouse October 12, 2008 11:40AM
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That reminds me once again of the Northwest Ordinance, Article 3. Many of the same men who participated in the construction of the government through the drafting of the Constitution and other founding documents and laws, also framed and passed this ordinance for the governing of what were then known as the Northwest Territories. That article defines the purpose of American public schools to be religion, morality, and knowledge, in that order. Granted, "religion" does not specify Christianity alone. But only a gross ignorance or self-serving revisionist distortion of history would pretend anything else could have been meant. That is to say, not Christianity as preached and practiced within its many denominations; but Christianity in its most general form - which, according to the Apostle, was "to visit the widows and orphans", to care for the sick and the hungry, to love (without succumbing to) one's enemies and to do good to those who do you no good. Also, to "study the scriptures daily" and to "reason".
- Forumgitator January 3, 2009 1:51AM
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The concept that "The United States is a Christian nation" does NOT establish a religion, NOR does it require adherence from all constituents in obedience to the world view upon which this nation was established!
It does, however, assert a logically legitimate argument that in a nation that was founded to operate upon Christian principles, and a God-fearing structure of Society, neglect of these principles, and refusal to give even mental assent to the way in which the mechanism operates,...will prove ultimately detrimental to the continuation of this nation as The United States of America.
Simply put, one does NOT have to be a Christian to see the importance of operating a Christian nation according to the Christian constructs that were used by the overwhelmingly God-fearing majority of the Founders of this nation! :)
- WinBro777JOT October 22, 2008 7:37PM
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"We are losing our Christian heritage through the reinterpretation and outright omission of our founding documents."
Ummm, the christian faith doesn't seem to have any problem with reinterpretation or omission considering the Bible most commonly referred to is known as the King James "version" and from what I understand, "omits" several of the orginal scriptures. I have always had a hard time understanding why, if the bible is god's perfect and holy word, that there would be so many different versions and interpretations on the book store shelves.
- JEdwards January 24, 2009 6:03PM
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Where can we learn what the Founders meant when they used the word, Christian?
.
Where do we go to learn the precise meaning of that word today?
- Pinky October 4, 2008 10:53AM
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Where does "Separation of church and state" come from. The lie told to use as students is that the constitution says it. It does not. Please explain where it comes from. I know where it says " IN GOD WE TRUST" .
- purelabor September 25, 2008 11:28PM
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The framers did not include he motto "In God We Trust" anywhere.
Look at the history of "In God We Trust" as a motto of the USA.
http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml
The motto was added onto the money decades after the constitution, in the midst of the Civil War.
Then at the height of the Cold War, in the midst of uninformed attitudes which equated atheism with communism, they were able to make the motto official.
- dsmccoy October 11, 2008 9:42PM
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The Founding Fathers never intended for the US to be a Christian nation when they founded the US. Some notable quotes:
"Lighthouses are more useful than churches." -Benjamin Franklin
"The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion ..." Article 11, Treaty of Tripoli
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." Thomas Jefferson
The founding fathers had no intention of basing the US off of a specific religion, they only wanted to give people the freedom to practice their own religion. It is unfortunate that people have gotten confused about what the Founding Fathers truly believed.
- chuckly74 April 6, 2009 10:13AM
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I am so sick and tired of people claiming this is a christian nation . Were many of our founders Christians?..........well yes,..........and then again, many were not. They understood the danger of combining reliion and government...simply a recipe for disaster. Of course if your religion is the majority religion, I guess you feel O.K. But what if it isn't........or what if it is today, but not 20, 30,40, 50, or 100 years from now.
But you know this country was founded with slavery in place. And since that is the case, I suppose we should reestablish that...........The whole argument justifying religion is so absurd.
- Rob May 17, 2009 11:10PM
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John Jay, who is as much of a founding father as Madison, wrote the following to John Murray:
"It certainly is very desirable that a pacific disposition should prevail among all nations. The most effectual way of producing it, is by extending the prevalence and influence of the gospel. Real Christians will abstain from violating the rights of others, and therefore will not provoke war.
Almost all nations have peace or war at the will and pleasure of rulers whom they do not elect, and who are not always wise or virtuous. Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest, of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." (The Life of John Jay p. 376)
http://books.google.com/books?id=eCMWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA376&dq =%22our+Christian+nation+to+select+and+prefer+Christians+for+their+rulers%22#PPA376,M1
- obrienr October 11, 2008 8:49PM
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The framers were a diverse lot and Jay was not typical.
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html
Jays view was only one of many.
- dsmccoy October 11, 2008 10:38PM
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Originalism -- the idea that court decisions should be controlled by the beliefs of the Founders -- has completely destroyed objectivity in the study of the Founders' beliefs. As the result of originalism, the Founders have been portrayed as everything from a bunch of bible-pounding holy-rolling fundies to a bunch of godless blasphemous atheists. Probably the worst example of originalism in regard to the establishment clause is Judge John E. Jones III's Dickinson College commencement speech in which he showed extreme prejudice against Intelligent Design and the Dover school board defendants -- regardless of whether or not ID is a religious concept -- by saying that his Kitzmiller v. Dover decision was based upon his cockamamie notion that the Founders based the establishment clause upon a belief that organized religions are not "true" religions -- he said:
". . .it was my liberal arts education, achieved right here at Dickinson College that provided me with the best ability to handle the rather monumental task of deciding the Dover case . . . .
". . . Ironically, but perhaps fittingly for my purposes today, we see the Founders' ideals quite clearly, among many places, in the Establishment Clause within the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. This of course was the clause that I determined the school board had violated in the Kitzmiller v. Dover case. While legal scholars will continue to debate the appropriate application of that clause to particular facts in individual cases, this much is very clear. The Founders believed that true religion was not something handed down by a church or contained in a Bible, but was to be found through free, rational inquiry. At bottom then, this core set of beliefs led the Founders, who constantly engaged and questioned things, to secure their idea of religious freedom by barring any alliance between church and state."
Contrary to his above statement, that "true religion" idea did not come from his undergraduate education but was a plagiarized quote mine from a book that was published long after he graduated. Judge Jones claims to be a big stickler for judicial precedent but his above interpretation of the establishment clause has no judicial precedent and is in fact contrary to judicial precedent. Judge Jones was required to be neutral towards organized religions but his above statement shows extreme hostility towards them. Judge Jones now defends his Dover decision on the grounds of "judicial independence" and "the rule of law."
The Founders probably did not want the establishment clause to be misused to attack scientific or pseudoscientific ideas that some people don't like, so if we are going to follow the Founders' wishes, we should follow that one.
- LarryFarma October 13, 2008 3:50AM
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Is the U.S. a Christian Nation?
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a simple test
There is a simple way to show that our laws are not based on Christian doctrine. The core of Christian doctrine are the ten commandments. Not only are many of them NOT codified american law, the exact opposite is law.
Example:
"you shall have no other gods before me."
This is a commandment and the exact opposite is codified into the foundation document of our nation; The Constitution.
- reckoner
September 24, 2008 10:21AM
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simple test
CHRISTIANITY: is NOT based on the ten commandments ..It is based on the fullfillment of the ten commandments.LIFE= SATISFACTION ,DEATH=SATISFACTION, Burial & RESURECTION=NEW SATITISFACTION & RELATIONSHIP ...YOUR, TEST-premis, is wrong ..THIS nation was founded under the interpritation of (new testament) teaching & belief...THE principles & ideals incorperated; that were deemed by those founders as being more than adequite for human life and the propogation of life, are & were,the best man could do for himself so to speak ..To adjucate another form of GOV'T ,would circumvent the basis for human existance; which is agreed to be: LIFE LIBERTY & ONE'S OWN PERSUTE OF HAPPINESS,(an individual interpritation),outside of the rule of common law &would bring into question the very existance & formation of these United States of AMERICA...A Country that promotes no one's ideal or preferences over another's...FREEDOM...THIS country has these principles that align with human nature in itself ../There is no GOV't in human history that employes this type of foundation, for ALL men & PEOPLES to exist tgether in harmony...When left to function as INTENDED...SO; THIS Country was founded on principles & precepts that are known by any intelligent person to be in the best interests of ALL who are citizens of this GOV'T..END of STORY NOBODY says
- nobody October 1, 2008 8:12AM
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A Little Late, But...
You got it just as wrong as the first guy.
Christianity is not about the Ten Commandments or fulfilling them. It's about the belief that some guy who said he was the son of a deity died on a cross, after leading a perfect life as a human, to symbolically take our sins away as long as we believe in him and try to lead a life as close to his perfection. That's what Christians believe. There are subtle (and sometimes extreme) differences across the many denominations but that's the basic premise.
The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA was not founded with Christian views in mind. That assumption is a Nationalist one which often confuses the Bible with the Bill of Rights. It's not as well-known as it should be that our early Patriots and Inventors were more Scientists and Scholars than they were Religious. The Constitution was written with full knowledge of what happens when you let " religion " guide a government...
Therefore we were guaranteed our freedom to speak, freedom to worship, and freedom to ensure those freedoms with armaments if need be. The model the U.S. was founded on is definitely not Christian. If that were the case then it would be a rather biased country, wouldn't it? If it's a Christian Nation then wouldn't that require everyone to accept the National Religion? It removes the premise of freedom and equality, bringing personal beliefs and illogical opinions into the ways we interact with other Nations and each other in any kind of official capacity.
If you disagree with WAR, you should only explain your vote based on logic. If you agree with WAR, you should only explain your vote based on logic. Using "God says..." is just about as relevant to any argument as "Superman would..." since neither of them are there to take the ACTION for us.
Since we're the only ones here, the only ones affected, shouldn't we take in all possible data and base our decisions on the logical approach rather than what some Jew or Greek wrote a couple thousand years ago? The Constitution is far more relevant because it was created with logic, fresh in the founding fathers' minds, having just fought a war over taxes and oppression from an Empire which felt it too had a Divine Right.
- m46607
September 4, 2009 6:01PM
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knowing facts about true Christ followers
True followers do not impose or force their will on others but still maintained the truths revealed to them..Check out , the fruits of the Spirit ..Christendom is not always setting the example of following Christ's example, because we still live in the flesh.The founders used agreed upon rules that work taken from the Bible ..They were gracious enough to let freedom of religion to the individual which is what Christ examples.
- nobody September 4, 2009 8:16PM
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False!
According to Christianity's teachings, it cannot co-exist with another religion . The goal of all Christians should be to convert the non-believers into believers. Conversion is the goal, so that Heaven might be filled with more souls and so that the physical world might have more "Christ-like warriors" to defend god against heathens and mortals against their innate, sin-filled nature.
If you do your research on the Founding Fathers you may be surprised to discover that they did not pluck the "rules" from the Bible. That's you projecting your beliefs on to the Constitution. You're not the only one who does it.
- m46607
September 6, 2009 12:51PM
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Christ.
Everyone must believe in Christ. But Christ and Jesus aren't the same thing. In the beginning was the word and the word was Christ. In one form or another all religions believe in Christ.
- mike1948
September 6, 2009 10:53PM
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Really
I don't even want to respond to such lunicy but here goes..
Since your replys definatly imply you are NOT as Christ said , " Born again ", You have No clue what it means to be of the same conviction as Christ..When you speak of such a thing, which you obviously are not, you cannot begin to translate those things you are not personally familiar with ..So don't try to tell me, unless you are truely "born again" as Christ taught.
Christ NEVER taught conformation, head knowledge or cohersion or any other form of Spirituality other than TRANSFORMATION ..
This can only come by God's acting upon a persons will, after that person has given their permission for God to act upon the will.
- nobody September 7, 2009 12:27PM
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we are the only ones here
You take God like liberties when you confer that we are here alone on the planet..Only a god could know this ..Just because You as a human only see what is physical does not mean things unphysical do not affect you...What is a thought or an idea but unseen.. A belief is unseen , but the effects can be devistating. Your, No God belief system, may not be up to power with another being which claims to be GOD. Only GOD can claim HE exists or doesn't exist.This is only, good reasoning.Accepting GOD into your belief system is up to the individual ..If you do not accept God into your system of conciousness, that goes with you.
- nobody September 5, 2009 10:36AM
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Yes. We Are The Only Ones Here.
All humans have the potential to be god -like. We have the power to create ideas, spreading them like wildfire. Religion is an example of our god-like ability. Decisions are waged through things written by men whenever someone follows a Theocracy. If Iran believes that it has a divine right and Israel believes it has a divine right, both of them in-line with their own deities, then who is right? Who has the correct deity? Yours is true, so that automatically makes the other false?
What evidence can you bring forth from your unmeasurable realm to back up your claims? Without evidence to methodically examine how can you claim some truth that I do not have? Why do you let that rule your life?
How are the effects devastating when your concerns aren't even placed in the physical world? Christians consider the physical world to be the means to an end. Beyond the physical world they believe there is something more and that they will exist beyond their mortal coils. That type of thinking is irresponsible; you are basing your entire life on a hope or theory that has nothing to do with your day to day life except that you make it a part of your daily life.
It just surprises me that people can be logical thinkers when it comes to paying their taxes , reviewing the Nutrition Facts on the panel of their cereal box, and vote on critical issues while simultaneously praying to an invisible man in the clouds. If you believe in a god and follow your dogma then why should any of the responsibilities of your mortal life matter? Because there's a small amount of doubt that you won't admit. It's covered by denial.
Well, the topic's "Is the U.S. a Christian Nation?" and the answer to this is "No, it is not." At least that's my stance, that it should not be a Christian Nation. It should not be a Muslim Nation. It should not be a Jewish Nation. It should be a nation of people who make decisions based on the physical factors, not theories. YOUR religious beliefs should not decide how I conduct MY life. Just as my personal beliefs should not affect yours.
People are quick to quote the Constitution, believing that it is integrated - going hand-in-hand - with the Bible. By far the most tooth-gnashing example of this is "The second amendment is Our god-given right!" Because YOUR *loving* god wants you to have guns ? That's precisely what Jesus would not want. You'll probably say god is vengeful too. God is loving and vengeful? How does that even work? Oh, his understanding is beyond mine? Well then stop using human words to describe an inhuman concept. To me you are just as well off explaining Zen Buddhism.
The Constitution, however, exists to guarantee that no religion is put before others and that we all maintain freedom of expression and belief. Look at the voting record on my profile. (: I believe that prayer should not be banned from public schools and that religious symbols should not be banned from public viewing.
People should be able to express themselves, though nobody should be forced to adhere to another belief. The Constitution gives you an inalienable right to believe in who or what you want, even if it's Aquaman. I also have the right to peacefully decline and offer my beliefs.
The fact that Christianity's mere premise undermines peaceful co-existence with other religions is irrelevant I suppose. Incidentally, that is a topic for a different thread.
- m46607
September 6, 2009 12:43PM
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Basing life on hope on a theory
No by "personal experience" ..I was "transformed" & am being transformed TODAY ,right now, as I write ..I have been salvaged , past tense ..A human Believer is alive to the future, TODAY, not in the future..The after life begins the moment a person believes, TODAY ..It's not futuristic, it' s TODAY ..Just as the thief on the cross was told, Christ said; TODAY thou shall be with me in paradise ..Of course that "paridise" was prior to Christ's assention to heaven ..A person becomes ETERNAL, TODAY, as their life mingles with God on this earth..God cannot deny Himself...A person is SEALED & Engaged to be married TODAY, in what God calls the day of redemption Or day of Glory..You need to get your facts straight from the horses mouth, so to speek ..You have been hoodwinked maybe by your own self rightious fellings.. I don't know you, but God knows ..
- nobody September 7, 2009 12:44PM
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Wut?
Very abstract. I'm sorry. I didn't pull anything useful from that reply.
Perhaps someone else will read it and be "transformed."
- m46607
September 7, 2009 1:56PM
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Anarchy vs Republic + Opposite Constitution
Mr. Reckoner,
This is a poor test when we consider these facts: The Ten Commandments are what everybody should follow, and even with the world masking it, we are ashamed when we do not abide by them.
Let me give you an example: Commandment VI says, "Thou shalt not kill." Commandment VII says "Though shalt not commit adultery." Commandment V says, "Thou shalt honor thy father an thy mother." Commandment VIII says, "Though shalt not steal." etc. When one kills, it is against the law . When one commits adultery, a marriage falls apart. When one does not honor their parents, a relationship breaks. When someone steals, it is against the law. Do you see my point. Not only is the Constitution based on these, but as we see in Commandment V, VII, and practically every other one, but things in life just don't work without laws like these.
I would also like to say that you appear as saying that Christians should have no law , and the the Constitution is God. This is not true. Please watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY&feature=related and you might see what I intend to say.
May God Bless you.
- Pray4Obama May 11, 2009 8:07PM
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All ten
Though many of the commandments are also found all (or nearly all) codes of morality... with murder and stealing being the biggest two... there are others that are not universal.
The very first three to four (depending on your denomination) all refer to the primacy of God (no other gods, no idols, keeping the sabbath). These are not universal, and treat them as such would make our nation a theocracy.
- MrBook
May 12, 2009 6:32AM
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What is a theocracy?
While I was reading this, I sensed that you had the wrong idea of a theocracy. A theocracy is a government in which church and state are indistinguishable - just like Britain used to be. Not everyone does follow them, but our nation was based upon them, and the founding fathers obeyed these commands. Read my other comment on this debate.
- Pray4Obama May 19, 2009 11:33AM
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pick and chose
I've never denied the Christian influence on the foundation of our nation... but that does not make the US a Christian Nation.
"The Ten Commandments are what everybody should follow, and even with the world masking it, we are ashamed when we do not abide by them."
Your words, to which I asked if that included the first three or four commandments... which are explicit Christian / Jewish in nature. If that is codified into the laws of the US that would make us very much a theocracy.
- MrBook
May 19, 2009 7:22PM
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Also
The philosophical background is somewhat murky with even those commandments, 5, 6, 7, especially within a biblical context.
Is G-d saying that killing is wrong BECAUSE it is against the law , or IRRESPECTIVE of the law?
One implies that following the law of the land\state you're inhabiting is inherently important, a priority that should be respected at the religious level. The other implies that some external moral\ legal authority exists, and the relationship between it and the state's law is somewhat murky.
Reckoner--There are many, many laws. And there are many, many commandments. I would challenge you to go through every law on the books and then definitively state that all laws are not based on Christian doctrine. Point to some that are based on Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist, whatever doctrines.
There are a bunch of laws peppered throughout the US Code that are written to either conform to the Christian doctrine, or to make things generally easier for Christians based on their Christianity--Which, to a non-Christian, is the government equivalent of saying "We like you guys. We're going to treat you preferentially because we just like you more."
- quantummechanik
May 19, 2009 2:36PM
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Read the Constitution ...
In answer to John McCain and others regarding what the U.S. Constitution does and does not establish, I suggest reading the Constitution. If, in fact, the intent were to create a Christian nation, the name of Jesus Christ would have been prominent throughout with due mention of "God" and his relationship to Jesus, his church, the Pope, disciples, etc. The language would have been very thick with Christianity to reflect such a purpose. As it happens, the Constitution contains no mention whatsoever of such person or entity nor does it even hint at a Christian intent. One would think this rather odd and lacking in devotion and foresight if the intent were to create a Christian nation. I find it unsettling that a man who has won the Republican Party nomination as their candidate for Presidency of the United States is so poorly versed in the contents of the document he might potentially be sworn to uphold and defend. Knowing at least the content and spirit of the document would seem a minimum knowledge for a presidential candidate and a much deeper understanding of the document, its genuine roots, its history and consequences of its adoption much more appropriate for one who wishes to be the leader of the nation which it formed.
As most discussions of the U.S. Constitution point out, it is the supreme law of the land as derived from many sources - English common law, The Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union, ideas of Charles de Secondat, baron de Montesquieu, the ideas of John Locke, of the Enlightenment movement in Europe, mainly that of Scotland, and has roots stretching back to the Magna Carta of 1215. The Bill of Rights is heavily rooted in the English Bill of Rights and the Virginia Declaration of Rights. In all of these documents, little to no mention is made of Jesus Christ or of the Judeo-Christian "God" as the basis of such thinking, power or authority.
Again, all of this is a rather startling revelation if the assumption is the United States was established as a Christian nation. One would think there would be far content directly borrowed from the much revered Christian Bible IF the United States was to be a mere extension of that religion. Unfortunately, the U.S. Constitution and most of the founding documentation of the United States are very much lacking in Christian text, thought, intent and spirit.
It is clear, the intent of the founders of the nation did not include extending the beliefs of christians to serve as the surpreme thought or law of this land. It actually takes very little education at all to understand what the primary intent was - a nation which guarantees liberty to all with respect for individual rights. The intent was to establish a nation where no man is beholding to a master other than himself. Odd thing to do if one of the alleged underlying assumptions was to be "Ye shall have no other gods before me."
The intent in founding this nation was to make the individual his own god, now and forever. Quite the anti-Christian thing to do.
- Naumadd
September 24, 2008 4:52PM
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Man his Own God?
I would disagree. While they may not have codified specific Christian beliefs into the Constitution, John Adams is quoted as saying "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." This is merely an example.
The point, though, is that while forcing the beliefs of Christianity on the populace was not part of the Federal government, it certainly wasn't disallowed (until the 14th amendment) for States to do. The Founding Fathers knew, wisely, that the only way to sustain the individual liberty they had written into the Constitution was for the people to be moral and religious. Religion, being the primary way to transfer morality and values to succeeding generations, is necessary, especially when there is more liberty.
This is why secular humanists tend towards socialism and AWAY from the liberty that the Founding Fathers wanted... the liberty our country is leaving faster every day.
- Benjamin Tuttle October 3, 2008 3:30PM
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Secular Humanism
Having met many other secular humanists, I can attest to the fact that not a single one of them spoke in favor of reductions of liberty for anyone. Quite the contrary. The aim of secular humanism is equal respect both for the religious and the non-religious and, more basic, the greatest degree of individual liberty possible to respect and encourage abundant diversity among human beings. What we've had in our history by way of Christian influences has been quite unfriendly to the non-Christian, the non-religious, to diversity and to maximum individual liberty, even demonstrably violent.
As for socialism, nothing is more tribal, "group-think" or socialist than a central religion, most especially a Christian one. The advantage of secular humanism is that it has no central tenet denying diversity of thought, speech, or lifestyle. If you spot a secular humanist who advocates for socialist causes, and by that I mean increased tribalism or group-think and state control, I would submit they're not much of a secular humanist.
Humanists celebrate human diversity and individual liberty. Judaism, Christianity and Islam have very poor records on both counts.
- Naumadd
October 3, 2008 7:25PM
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Interesting
This is interesting insite. I would of never thought along these lines, but it is none the less interesting.
- justsomeguywithanopinion
November 13, 2008 1:50PM
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Argumentum ex silentio
The framers of the Constitution were obviously concerned with retaining their rights as Englishmen. But nowhere in the Constitution do we find the phrase "rights of Englishmen". Argumentum ex silentio is fallacious reasoning. The fact that a document is silent on some word or phrase is not evidence that the concept represented by the word or phrase was absent from the minds of the writers.
Nor is there justification to demand that a nation based on Christian principles, or even more specifically, Biblical expressions, must absolutely repeat those Biblical phrases within its constitution. We might as well argue that because the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't mention the three branches of government, therefore, Americans aren't really concerned about either or all of those branches; or that because a document agreeing to a cessation of hostilities doesn't mention the word "peace", the signers don't really want peace.
The only reason to say that it takes little education to understand the Founders' intents would seem to be to justify all kinds of unfounded speculation and revision of political history. Understanding the Founders' intent takes a great deal of education. If it took little education, they would not have felt obligated to spend so much time explaining their intentions in such detail. And if it took little education, more people would be citing the Federalist Papers to support their misguided arguments directly opposing those obvious intentions.
- Forumgitator
January 3, 2009 1:21AM
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It depends on what you mean by "Christian" ...
It depends on what you mean by "Christian"; if you mean a nation of people who go to churchs that call themselves "christian" then Yes, we are a "christian" nation.
If by "Christian" you mean a nation of people who live according to the Commandments of Jesus, then Hell No; we are not even close to Christian.
The first choice is "nominal" christianity, the second is Actual Christianity.
"You will know them by their works." Our works testify AGAINST us.
- sean s
September 24, 2008 7:33PM
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"Some"
"Some" individuals go to churches, "some" individuals call themselves "christian". Since the beginning of European occupation of the "American" continent, and acknowledging the continuing primarily christian majority, the land has always been a mixed bag of philosophies, beliefs, religious practices and continues in that manner today. It is improper to call the continent, country, nation, a "christian" nation when one can only be speaking of the majority, NOT the total combined population. I suppose it continues to be unfair to speak of "America" without also including its original occupants in the mix. One might say, up to the time the European peoples violently and non-violently shifted the balance of population on the continent, "America" was primarily a mix of native american beliefs and religions.
One ought to be more accurate in one's use of "we". Which "we" are you referring to? Surely not everyone considered to be "American" and certainly not the nation as a whole. If only speaking of a majority, then "nation" is a larger set and "christian" does not purely apply to it.
- Naumadd
September 25, 2008 2:14AM
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I would agree
I would agree with what you have said here.
That is exactly what I had in mind when I read this question. Good way of defining Christianity. To say one is a Christian because they go to Church is different than saying one is a Christian because they obey the word of God.
I happened into a conversation between a supposed Minister and a Christian here in this forum and they were not very civil to each other. I would say that neither were very Christian.
- justsomeguywithanopinion
November 13, 2008 1:53PM
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No True Scotsman Fallacy
I still have yet to hear someone explain this to me. What constitutes a Real Christian? Why doesn't everyone agree on those attributes? Everything admitted Christians do wrong tend to be dismissed as "not the actions of REALCHRISTIANS".
- quantummechanik
May 19, 2009 2:39PM
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What does our constitution contain....
...that is explicitly denied by the Bible? The answer: A LOT.
Check out a complete list here: http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/10/is-america-a-christian-nation.html
- bagpiper2005
September 27, 2008 4:38AM
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Another source to consult ...
Another source to consult would be the Treaty of Tripoli; the text can be found at: ( http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html ). Negotiated in 1796 and Ratified in 1797; Article 11 is particularly telling:
"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
If the Framers/Founders of the United States did not think it was a Christian Nation, then exactly when did that change?
- sean s
September 28, 2008 9:52AM
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Who said it a Christian nation in the first place?
The Pilgrims came the U.S to seek religious freedom & then it led to the massacre of Native Indians. As time progress the enslavement of the Africans for centuries. There is nothing Christian about that.
As time go on this nation is getting more and more immoral. When a nation is getting deeper into sexual immorality and fail to retain God in their knowledge the future is not so bright. For instance, taking prayers out of school and the Bible says in Proverbs 9 vs.10 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge of the Holy One brings understanding." Removing the 10 commandments from the courts, legalizing gay marriage which is totally against God's will and nature, promoting pornography which destroys homes and etc.
Every nation on earth which was great before the U.S, their reign came to an end due to high sexual immorality and their disregard for God. For example: Ancient Egypt, Rome, Greece, the Babylonian empire, & the British Empire.
If the nation's principles is contrary to the word of God it is not a Christian nation. You can't say you are a Christian nation and everything you stand for and believe is against God.
- Tamara
September 29, 2008 9:51AM
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That's the question, darling.
The question was "Is the U.S. a Christian Nation?"
And the reason why there is such constant dispute about sex and who should be allowed to have it, and babies before marriage, and all manner of "problems", who should get married to who, who should be exposed to religion and who shouldn't...
Those problems stem from the wonderful Christians who seek to force everyone else to attain the standards they seek.
Take, for example, your obvious objection towards the non-discrimination of people based on their sexual preference.
Maybe you should really reexamine what it means to be a Christian. That would mean you would actually have to follow the words and teachings of Christ and only Christ. If, as you say, people should be Christian, it might actually behoove you to be one and not a Bible-ist. And if half the Senators and Congressional members who claim to be Christians would do the same you'd be living in a Communist state... but gays wouldn't be allowed to marry and sex would require a wedding!
And yet, it's funny but I don't see you giving away your computer. You surely don't need it to live, but yet you keep it. I mean, how much harder is it for the rich man to go to heaven than for the camel to go through a haystack of needles? You should really take that splinter out of your own eye before you start pointing your finger at innocent trees.
Or something like that.
You're morals are not absolute. Thank whatever god you want to for that. And thank whatever god you want to that the rest of us don't have to follow the misguided rules that you've been spoon fed.
- SocialistBetty
December 31, 2008 10:51PM
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Founded on Christian Principles
I believe that the United States was founded on Christian beliefs and that our forefathers were Christians. The intent of our founding fathers was for the United States to be a Christian nation. This was carried out for the most part for the first couple hundred years of the country’s founding. After that, people started getting their own ideas about things. I don’t know if this is because they just wanted to be different and go against the grain, so to speak, or if they really believed in the things they were teaching.
Early on in America’s history, the debate was not over specific religion, but over denominations. Just about everyone was a Christian, but denominations were very strong and they often argued about whose was the best or most Biblical. These arguments stemmed into more heated debates that broke off into complete other religions. Today we see all kinds of religions that people actually believe in. For this reason, I don’t believe that the United States is a Christian nation.
I think as far as specific religions go, there are probably more people who claim to be Christian than any other religion, but that does not make the nation classify as “Christian”. Look at all the things that are published in books, magazines and newspapers and shown on television and in movies that do not reflect a Christian lifestyle in the least. These things alone are enough to disprove the statement that we live in a Christian nation.
Some would argue that more than ninety percent of Americans believe in God. That may be so but believing in God and having the relationship with Him that allows you to be classified as a Christian are two completely different things. Many times, the American idea of Christianity is believing in God, but that won’t get you to Heaven. For these reasons, I don’t think we can consider the United States a “Christian nation”.
- wphillips September 30, 2008 1:50PM
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This is not a moral nation.
I'm with you, WPhillips, in believing that the U.S. is no longer a purely Christian nation. The founding ideas were based on Roman, British, and Christian traditions and ideas. That is obvious.
.
As the world has "grown smaller", non-Christians have wanted to see how much of their own potential they could realize in this Christian, capitalist, socially liberal country. Some succeeded; their faiths were maintained; they evangelized; the number of adherents of their faiths grew. We see the uniquely American result. Muslims, more divided than Christians, have learned better here to live in peace and form inter-madrasa or inter-sect fellowships. It will be in America, and because of her tradition of religious tolerance and religious freedom, that Muslims will find their long-elusive unity.
At the same time tolerance has weakened into fear, freedom has twisted into emboldened immorality, and liberalism has fractured into confusion, instability, and misdirection.
I don't condemn Christianity, nor Christians particularly, for what has happened. It is the result of human nature, unrestricted by the Founders' idea of balancing opposing interests, and free of humane self-control and personal self-discipline that religion can provide. No religion will solve America's problems if Americans insist on irreligious habits. While I commend those Christians and Muslims and atheists who do attempt to live moral lives while encouraging others to do likewise, I personally believe it is time in the world for some new system -- of faith or morality or conscientiousness.
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Past religions no longer seem to provide the enthusiasm, conviction, determination, selflessness they once did. I am comfortable saying that the U.S. is historically a Christian nation, yet recognize that that reality is changing. We need something more persuasive than we currently have, to overcome our divisions, our faithlessness, our confusion, our fear and intolerance (of Christians as well as of non-Christians), and our lurching from left to right and right to left every four or eight years.
- Forumgitator
January 3, 2009 1:43AM
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Christian nation
I believe we were founded as a christian nation for the simple fact that we gave people the right to choose their religion. Many other nations don't give their people the freedom to decide what religion they want to believe in. Example is China. Many christians in china have to worship in secret because they would be jailed or even killed for practiceing Christianity. The God of the Bible gave us the free will to either except or reject Him (Deuteronomy 30:19 says that God has set life and death before us so choose life). So even though He wants us to choose life He gives us the chance to choose death. And as a nation we have given people the right to choose just as God has done. We don't force anyone to believe any certain way. Just because that we have chosen as a nation in general to choose against God doesn't mean we aren't still founded on the principles of God, which includes free will.
- moorejesus
September 30, 2008 2:49PM
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Defining a Christian Nation
There is no national religion, nor should there be, but our founding fathers had a "Western" "Christian" worldview. We are a secular nation containing many religions but founded by Christian influenced men. They formed our nation and laws based on that worldview. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" If the US had been formed by Japanese Shinto of their time, then the basis would have been different. We change interpretations over time but that version of a "Western""Christian" worldview remains. If you agree with the basic ideals of the nation then that is all that matters, no matter your religion. I think this is mostly a tempest in a teapot.
- againes
October 1, 2008 10:44AM
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We are founded that way, where are we now?
Is the nation based on Christian principles, or are we a purely secular nation? This question, asked to 'catch' the eye of any skeptical reader was thrown into the prolouge for many purposes. I believe that the question is semi-correct and semi-incorrect. Yes, the nation 'was' based on Chrsitian principles, and for that reason we Americans can take on the very few moral values left as our own. But yes our nation is turning towards a purely secular nation. CHRISTIANITY: is NOT based on the ten commandments ..It is based on the fullfillment of the ten commandments-this comment is explicitly correct.
- Juanita October 1, 2008 2:17PM
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It's obvious!
"Are we a christian nation?" It's accepted to be homosexual. It's accepted to abort a baby. Pornography is accepted like mickey mouse is for children. Certain drugs should be legal. The first word that should obviously come to ones mind is"IMMORAL!!" So...NO WE ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION!" How could anyone identify themselves as a christian and promote these things by agreeing with them or participating in them and use the same mouth to say they're a christian???
- kim42
October 2, 2008 2:47AM
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The fact is...
The fact is, our nation was built upon Christian morals. Are we still seeking after Christ as a nation? Trying to find His will for our country and not our own? Well I would have to say no to both.
When the pilgrims first came to America they were trying to seek after religious freedom. They wanted a nation where they could worship the one true God, the God of Jacob, Isaac, and Esau, freely. The Declaration of Independence is even based upon the Word of God, stating that, "...all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..."
The question is, do we as a nation still believe and trust in the same God as our forefathers did before us. Since we are allowed to practice any religion in America, it makes people wonder why we would consider America a Christian nation, but not a Hindu or Islamic nation. The fact still remains though that we were built upon a Christian perspective, not a Hindu or Islamic perspective.
Are we acting as a Christian nation should act? I believe in any nation, you will have people from all sorts of different religious backgrounds. There is just no getting around that. No country is going to be completely Christian. But as a nation, I would consider the United States to be Christian, because of these basic principles our forefathers have set before us. And so far, we have not dismissed them as being unreliable for our nation.
- hacacia October 4, 2008 4:21PM
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Only Christian Influences?
As a Canadian studying in the United States, I have always been fascinated over how
Christian Americans and those of varying beliefs have debated over this topic. Having watched videos such as David Barton’s “America’s Godly Heritage” and “The Role of Pastors & Christians in Civil Government” and read various books on this topic for classes, I have formed the opinion that the United States’ leaders at the time of the formation of the Constitution were influenced by their beliefs when drafting the document but intended that the United States remain free from any set religion. Yes, many of the Founding Fathers were Christians but the Constitution does not in any way establish the United States as a Christian nation.
Many of the principles in the Constitution are based on Judeao-Christian principles. Yet many of these same principles are shared in religions much older than both the Jewish and Christian faith’s. Therefore, basing that Constitution establishes the United States as a Christian nation on this argument is faulty. To be correct, one would have to include all of the other religions that share the same principles found in the Constitution and not exclusively claim the principles to be directly derived from the Judeo-Christian heritage. Many of the founding fathers were well versed in ancient history and were aware of different cultures. Could we then, deduce that their knowledge of history influence their input into the forming of the Constitution? Why choose only the Christian influence to highlight? Why not highlight the other influences that these men pulled from to construct the Constitution of the United States? Therefore, from this stand point, it is impossible to state, from the Judeao-Christian principles theory, that the Constitution is a Christian document supporting that the United States is a Christian nation.
Lastly, the first Amendment clearly states that the Congress will not make laws respecting an establishment of religion or prohibit the freedom to exercise religion. Having established this Amendment, the founding fathers clearly established that the Constitution was not be considered a Christian document. In this way, anyone in the
United States could choose his/her own religious beliefs without persecution for those beliefs. With this statement clearly presented in the Constitution, I cannot see how anyone could interpret this document of government to establish the United States as a Christian nation. Christianity was a major influence during the formative years of the country but the United States was established as a relligiously free nation.
I believe that many Christians of the United States rely on the fact that many of the Founding Fathers believed in God to state that the Constitution establishes the United States as a Christian nation. Pushing that morality is impossible without a religious belief, people tend to forget while this is true, many belief systems were at work while the Constitution was being formed. Therefore, I say that the Constitution does not establish the United States as a Christian nation but rather establishes the United States as a country free for people to practice the Christian religion.
- havefaith October 8, 2008 3:10PM
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Freedom Foremost
What defines Christian, who wrote the Constitution and what does it say?
These three elements are essential in the interpretation of John McCain’s
statement, “the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation.”
Definition provides a mirror for interpretation. In the Webster’s New
Twentieth Century Dictionary of The English Language, the adjective Christian is defined by Noah Webster as: “of the teachings of Jesus Christ, having the qualities demonstrated and taught by Jesus Christ , as love, kindness, etc., human, decent.” On this basis, anyone or anything described as Christian should
not find offence. William Martin PHD would agree along with Dr. Paul S. Vickory that this nation could be defined as an upstanding moral, human and decent country. The founders of any idea or structure give that thought or building credence without further interpretation. Dr. Paul S. Vickory, through direct quotations of
the founding Fathers of the U.S. Constitution, provides evidence of the Christian intent and thought given in its inception and writing by revealing the character of the person behind the words. On the other hand, William Martin seems to misconstrue the wording and interpret the meanings based on the worldview of today’s society in which we live and on isolated past documents. To dispute any work, one must be knowledgeable of it. In fact, most Americans are ignorant of not only what the Constitution says but to whom it was written,why, when, and in what context. Ignorance breeds contempt. To clarify, a Christian country does not mean a theocratic one. William Martin alluded to the fact that preferential treatment was allotted only to the Christian sect to the seclusion of all others. When in fact, America was built upon this statement made by the late President Abraham Lincoln that, “All men are created equal.” Furthermore, John Adams wrote: “The general principles on which the father’s
achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow
that I then believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” Consequently, even though this nation endorses religious freedom as was the pilgrims cause in coming to America, does not negate its foundational principles being in the word of God. In knowing the meaning of Christian as to a state of moral decency founded on Biblical principles giving all human beings a right of
choice; in knowing our Founding
Fathers’characters were molded by Christian ethics; and in knowing their choice of wordage was for the protection of the freedom and rights of all Americans should then be a source of relief and comfort to all those who heard McCain’s speech endorsing this nation as a Christian one.To not know our roots is to not secure our future.
In truly evaluating any wordage or document is to know who said it, when was it said, to whom was it said and what was said.John Adams wrote: “The general principles on which the father’s achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”Indeed, Christian does not mean theocracy. William Martin who supports that the early Presidents regarded the new nation as a secular state is indeed using his own bias. On the contrary, one of the greatest statements ever made by President Abraham Lincoln is that, “All men are created equal.” This freedom of
status and religion in this country is unparallel anywhere else in the world.
- rock star October 9, 2008 11:47AM
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Unanswerable Except By Definition!
This sort of question is maximally pointless, as it depends wholly on the definition of "Christian nation." If you accept a proponent's definition, you're forced to go along with his position on the matter.
PRO:
-- Our founding documents are redolent of Christianity;
-- Seven of the Ten Commandments are buried in our laws;
-- 74% of Americans classify themselves as Christians;
-- American charity is very much in the Christian spirit.
By the standards prevalent in the Middle East, America is indubitably a Christian nation. BUT...
CON:
-- America has no established church;
-- Every religion and sect known to Man is at home here;
-- Religious and scriptural arguments are invalid in our courts;
-- Religious tests for public office are barred by the Constitution.
By a purely political reckoning, America is not a Christian nation.
Pay your money and take your choice.
- fporretto
October 16, 2008 1:52PM
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I agree...
I agree that the United States was founded as a Christian nation. Of course, times have changed, and many people do not follow the same moral code that was established with the beginning of our country, but I would still consider it a Christian nation.
When the pilgrims first came to the New World, they came in search of religious freedom. This freedom was the whole reason for founding America. This alone shows that we based our idea of liberty for our country off the example God gave us through Salvation. He gives a free will- the choice to choose our beliefs. This is exactly what the pilgrims did by allowing people to worship without being penalized. The majority of those who came to the New World at that time would have considered themselves Christians, but as we see today, Americans have taken part in a moral decline that I believe is far from the intentions of the original founders of our nation.
Not only did the story of the Pilgrims reveal the Christian establishment of our country, but so did the “Founding Fathers” who wrote our Constitution. George Washington is a perfect example. He obviously had Christian beliefs and is recorded to have used 102 different names for God when speaking of the founding and future direction of America. He also said that he believed that God was watching over him in the midst of an intense battle in which he came close to getting killed many times. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson also showed that they were dependent on God for the success of our nation. John Adams said, “The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” From this, it is obvious that he believed that the Christian principles the United States was founded on are still relevant to us today. Finally, Alexander Hamilton remarked that the two things that make America great are Christianity and the Constitution based on Christianity. All of these things convince me that the United States of America was founded with Christian beliefs and continues to be a Christian nation.
- alg October 19, 2008 2:09PM
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No in one aspect and yes in another...
Is America a Christian Nation?
In relation and comparison to the Middle East and how they are an Islamic nation, America is not a Christian nation. People from Islamic nations are more devout in their religion and integrate it in their daily lives—for example in schools. In current times, America calls itself a “Christian Nation” merely just as a title. For Americans do not integrate Christianity and its values in their daily lives. Americans seem to keep that just for Sunday mornings at best. During the other times, many are living their own lives most often leaving Christianity out of the equation. Yet, it is unquestionable that America was indeed founded upon Christian principles and such was the purpose in its findings too. The pilgrims came to America in search of religious freedom. In that sense, America is a ‘Christian nation’ in that it was founded upon a Christian heritage. Furthermore, it is quoted that apparently 80 percent of Americans say they are “Christian.” Many Americans are willing to even say that a God exists. It is only to this that America is a “Christian nation.” It is a title with no substance that many Americans cling to based upon tradition.
- LJ1067 October 20, 2008 1:29PM
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Morality Is Undefined Faith. . .
Morality is undefined faith, and thus, indirectly Christianity. It is impossible to label America as a Christian nation based off of the number of participating Christians in the U.S. I think that the more correct way to assess the debate is to realize that not only Christianity exists. In fact, many other religions relate to Christianity in the sense that parts of the faith mirrors its morality. It is a common knowledge that murder is wrong, stealing is unjust, everyone deserves to be treated well, etc. These are moral aspects stemming from Christianity and branching out of the religion to a point that even atheists agree! Some may disagree, but ask this: What tells us these things are wrong or right? We in ourselves as humans really have no means of defining these parallels, but we do live by a faith-based code that does - most commonly called Christianity. As a child we are taught these things. We may grow up and decide to not practice Christianity, but we still do not forget these ideas – we still believe them even if we don’t believe there is a God. So while many citizens of the United States of America do not practice Christianity, or may not practice a faith at all, the way of life adhered to within our nation is based on Christian principles deeply rooted in our "conscience"; A conscience of Christianity. Thus, I believe the USA to be a Christian nation, as well as most other foreign countries, no matter how misguided the surface appearance may seem. Despite the fact that some laws in America do not reflect the beliefs of myself or peers, the way most of Americans relate to one another does. Morality is everywhere, even if it does not bear the title “Christian”. This will never leave the way we live, and as a result the U.S. will always be, to some degree, a Christian nation.
- htalburt October 21, 2008 11:05AM
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Has the U.S. ever been a Christian nation?
I really like what Sean said above about how it depends on how we define Christianity to determine whether the U.S. can be defined as a Christian nation. What defines a Christian, anyway? Is it the church you go to, or the amount of money you give to charity? Is it because that is what your mother and father were? Is it because you prayed a prayer a long time ago, even though you haven’t prayed since, or because you think you’re a good person?
If that is what defines a Christian, then yes, America is definitely a Christian nation. Unfortunately, all of these things do not constitute a Christian. It’s about a relationship with God. By looking at America, one has to wonder what kind of relationship the people of the United States have with God. Jesus says in Matthew 6:24, “No man can serve two masters.” In other words, you can’t straddle the fence. You can only be on one side or the other.
As far as the founding of America, one can argue that America and its Constitution were founded in Christianity, but that is obviously up for debate. Many of the Founding Fathers, such as George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, were deists. This meant that they believed in God, or a higher power, but that he has no intervention in the world. This clearly contradicts many denominations of Christianity in America.
When the Constitution was formed, it was based on Judaeo-Christian beliefs because the Founding Fathers had come out of the Church of England. These beliefs constituted the moral code of the time, and these were the principles the founders of our country were raised to believe. The Constitution may have been based on Christian beliefs, but perhaps it was because those beliefs formed the morality of the Founding Fathers and not necessarily their religion. There is a difference between being a “good person” and a Christian. I personally aspire to be both.
- amberf October 21, 2008 12:39PM
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Ways
People's characteristics, attitudes, behaviors and good Ways are what defines the word Christianity.
- lyntel
May 20, 2009 6:33AM
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Deists and Christians?
So then were the Founding Fathers who identified themselves as Deists (not Christians) also Christians?
- MrBook
May 20, 2009 8:28PM
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The Answer Here is: Of Course
You may not like it. You may wish it wasn't true. But the United States is -- without question -- a Christian nation. What book does the president use to swear in? Who is on our money? Who do we reference during our Pledge of Allegiance. The fact is, if you are of a different relgion other than Christianity, you will have trouble running for office in America. Not saying it can't be done, but it's a hurdle.
- Vandal K
December 5, 2008 9:02AM
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America is not Exclusively Christian
The United States is not a "Christian nation." It is a secular nation that was founded by Christians, and is populated primarily by Christians, and does show many influences of Christianity. That being said, The US is a multicultural, multi-religious nation. Last time I checked, Jesus is not on our money, nor does he feature in the Pledge of Allegiance. Jews and Muslims worship the same God, and who's to say that it's even that God that it is referring to? Could it not be a general statement to whatever "God" the individual making the statement refers to? It may be difficult to be elected, but there are no laws barring non-Christians from running for office. Vatican City is a Christian nation. America may have a large Christian majority, but it is not a Christian nation.
- richardsonkr
December 5, 2008 7:34PM
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Amazing
It would really do many in our country to go back and read more about the writing of the constitution. Maybe, we would also get some benefit from understanding the people who first colonized our country and the reasons why they were coming for many was to escape religious persecution. Even though they were "Christian", they came from religious minorities in their own countries. They were discriminated against for their brand of "Christianity". Our founding fathers, very wisely, wrote our founding documents to protect minority religious views. By keeping our collective religious faiths out of public (all parts of government) it provides the safe atmosphere for minority and majority religious views. As such, to ask if we are a Christian nation one must answer no, even though the majority of it's inhabitants may, possibly follow any one of many hundreds of brands of christian belief. The US is definitely a secular country by law.
- mangueken
December 10, 2008 12:03PM
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No.
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html
Treaty of Tripoli 1797, Article 11: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
- QuinceyQuick
February 5, 2009 6:43PM
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Some points
In the Mayflower Compact - one of the first pieces of legislature written in the new land(1620) - the almost dead passenger’s chose to thank God and stated that they were loyal subjects of King James and had undertaken their voyage, “for the glory of God and the advancement of the Christian faith.” In the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson and the signers address God as a Creator(all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator...), and as the “Supreme Judge.” In the Articles of Confederation, God is referred in the statement “Year of our Lord.” John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison(who was considered the Father of the Constitution), Benjamin Franklin, and George Washington were all confessed Christians and built the pieces of legislature on Christian principles. On the day that the Declaration was proclaimed, John Adams gave a speech to Congress saying The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America, to be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival, commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty from one end of the continent to the other from this time forward forevermore…..
I would also like to make the point that Harvard University - the first institution of higher learning in the United States - was founded in 1636 by the Puritans only 16 years after they arrived in Massachusetts. The Puritans considered education necessary so that their children could read the Bible and “work out their own salvation.” For about 200 years in America children were taught from the New England Primer. This book used Bible verses to teach the correct pronunciation of letters.
- Pray4Obama May 19, 2009 11:34AM
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All 50 states
Each and every state has a Constitution. Each state has a preamble. What is a Preamble? It is an introduction that states it's reason and purpose. It is amazing to see that each and every State of the union acknowledges and gives thanks to Almighty God; the Supreme Ruler of the World; the Soverign Ruler of the Universe and Hawaii's Preamble gives references God in this way. Hawaii joined the Union in 1956. It states, "We, the people of Hawaii, Greatful for Divine Guidence...Establish this constitution . They understand the Constitution better than we do. Illinois 1870, Preamble--We the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors...Georgia 1777, Preamble We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guideance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution. Delaware 1897, Preamble--Through Divine Goodness all men have by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of consciences...Alabama 1901, Preamble We, the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution. Connecticut 1818, Preamble--The People of Connecticut, acknowledgeing with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy...Need I go any further? Let's me show you a few more.
Massachusetts 1780--229 years ago the people explains much. Preamble to the State of Massachuttes Constitution--WE...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with greatul hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploying His direction.....
Maine 1820--Preamble-We the people of Maine acknowledging with greatful hearts the goodness of the Soverign Ruler of the Universe us an opportunity....And imploring His aid and direction....
The Word of God creates, forms, and makes good people and a good nation. The Bible played a very big part in the forming of ALL Constitutions--including the United States Constitution. We need educated--That is our problem.
- lyntel
May 20, 2009 7:15AM
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it was inthe begining
Is the US a christain nation it wont be for long.
AS A CONSERVATIVE CHRISTAIN it wont be for to much longer.conservative christian have forgotton there frist love.THE LOVE OF CHRIST,They dont want the gay,whore,drunks,homeless in there chruchs any more. There the unclean.
But let me tell you something JESUS CHRIST DIED FOR ALL! NO ON IS UNCLEAN.COME OUT OF YOUR BIG BUCK CHRUCH AND SEE THE PEOPLE WITH NEEDS WHO WONT GO TO TO MR.BIG BUCK CHURCH.Because they know its all about money .That you think your better then them.The chruch IN the US IS JUST A ONE DAY MEET.We as christains must let the love of JESUS CRIST flow from us.
- zman
May 30, 2009 9:41PM
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Not that it matters
Christianity is the most prevalent (and therefore damaging) mythology in America right now. Fortunately few people act out the most vile edicts of Christianity at this point in history.
Since most religions have a similar "moral code" it would be difficult to differentiate between societies based upon the "lowest common denominator principles" of the various religions.
- KentMcManigal June 5, 2009 9:29AM
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really, if you're going to transpose things so simply..
..admit that you're simple minded. Christianity is founded on the spiritual nature of the judaen symbols. Reason with me. This is really the underlined essence of existance, of life, and of the symbolic demonstration. The symbols. It's no coincidence that the founding fathers marked exactly that point. In their words.So you unlearned people with such simply minds, it's shocking you miss the obvious but scholastically, take the founders for what they said. Someone please put some quotes here. Let's not take the unlearned word for it, let's go to the educated founders and see what they had to say about their actions. What is shocking is that it's being shouted out loud. over and over. But the truth is hardly being mentioned. Truth is harder than lies but there is a definite force working to override the truth. i'm certain the sources have been met with the truth, and it ment nothing to them. They have an agenda and it is not to uphold truth. It is quite the opposite. The idea of religious freedom in at the heart of Christianity. That is whole message. You see these arrogant livberals, not experts in history or the nature of Christian teachings, unanoumously abide by this loud and forceful lie. There would be no america is all TRUE christian adherents were killed in the year 1600. we would be in a world much like today. You would see people in pig markets being sold for edible food . Truth.
- jxzac June 9, 2009 2:23PM
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Really?
Religious freedom is at the heart of Christianity?
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)
They agreed that anyone who refused to seek the LORD, the God of Israel, would be put to death—whether young or old, man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:13)
The false prophets or visionaries who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who redeemed you from slavery and brought you out of the land of Egypt. Since they try to lead you astray from the way the Lord your God commanded you to live, you must put them to death. In this way you will purge the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:5)
They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen . . . Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done . . . They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:25,28,32)
- Blue Linchpin
June 11, 2009 2:39AM
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yes, i will show you how i am correct.
Now you're talking about a law designed for israel . These people are living in Israel by contract. This is moses's law and the covenant. This is a very basic idea and you're not to intelligent if you miss it. Ignorant is not even a word to define your mistake here.
Let's clarify, Israelites didn't have to live in israel. They could have left. The law applied to the Israelites. They could have abandon it. That's their choice. Essentially, that is the foundation.
- jxzac June 13, 2009 12:31PM
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We
We were founded as a nation for religious freedom , of course we implemented certain aspects of religion into our founding of a nation. Although that is true it is false to say we are a Christian nation.
- Dylandts
August 21, 2009 9:14PM
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Founding Fathers
To me it cannot be questioned whether we are a christian nation or not. Many biblical principles are the influence of our laws and setup. Through the years we might have lost some but I am almost sure that everyone here agrees that the people on the mayflower were seeking freedom to practice Christianity. Many of our founding fathers as well were Christians and they set up our government based on that as well.
A few quotes (i can get many many more) from some of our founding fathers are:
John Adams said “Statesmen, my dear sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which freedom can securely stand.”
Benjamin Rush said “The only foundation for…a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”
Retrieved from: http://www.mytruthproject.org/truthproject/downloads/lessonsupport/lesson10.pdf
- master hoku
October 5, 2009 7:58PM
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