You have probably heard the expression, "Spare the rod, spoil the child." Do you agree with it? Perhaps you were spanked as a kid. Was it appropriate? Some people see spanking as an outdated method of punishment or even child abuse, while others view a swat on the bottom as a parent's prerogative. Where do we draw the line when it comes to disciplining our children?
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Is it just me or was there no evidence to support his case in that piece of "expert" opinion? I'm not saying he's not an expert, but his status as such doesn't mean he can make unsupported claims. He summarizes the opponent's ideas and calls them hogwash. The end. This is not any sort of start to a debate.
- Doublecheck
September 18, 2008 5:36PM
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Agreed. It is not any way to start a debate. Where is the evidence? I have read some summaries posted by another poster, but most of it was from a religious standpoint and so it was biased.
- UltraConservative November 16, 2008 6:14PM
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Hello, I am writing a paper on opposing views and I have decided to go with rather or not to spank your child is right. As I was reeading your part of the debate, i got really confused because because it doesnt make sense. It doesnt make sense where you say that spanking may be right? You state in the middle of your comment "that the might is right" and that is very confusing because it doesnt make sense and just in general your conment is hard to read.
Thank You
Jackson015
- Jackson015 November 16, 2008 5:17PM
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If your child is afraid of being spanked because youve done it to them before then they will obey you because theyre afraid to be spanked. "Fear is the greatest motivator"
- mattbertrams January 12, 2009 11:33AM
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The person a child becomes is not only determined on whether the child was spanked or not. Just because a child was spanked doesn't mean he will be scarred, violent, and pathetically confused. Also, just because a child wasn't spanked doesn't mean he will be a saint either. Other aspects of parenting determine the person a child grows up to be, not just the form of discipline.
- krispy January 23, 2009 10:49PM
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Most children, even preschoolers, are being taught to speak different languages such as Spanish and French in our world today. I think this makes kids capable of telling the difference between a pat on the rear for doing something bad and a display of affection. By gently discipling children, the parents will show their children what are "no-no's" without mentally damaging their reasoning skills and without smudging the line between abuse and affecton.
- Edgin7 January 25, 2009 9:36PM
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While the people who advocate spankers for God's purpose may not be a strong argue, those who are against spanking also require more depth to their argument, as stated. While spankers may say that this is child abuse, what will become child abuse next? Could a parent using a scare tactic to stop their child from touching a hot stove be considered mental abuse? This idea that cause and effect does not work is absurd since mostly everything one does is governed by what rewards or punishments they receive. Spanking is simply a punishment like taking away car keys or sitting in time out.
- Shay February 9, 2009 9:29PM
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" spanking " "a swat" " a pat on the rear" are all terms for beating a child into submission. We treat animals better. A child who is capable of making the cognitive connection between being hit and what he/she had done to "earn" the hit is capable of being spoken to in a reasonable manner and told why behaviors are unacceptable. A child who is not capable of making that connection is too young to benefit from that type of punishment and should be gently redirected. Beating your child is not the same as taking away a privledge. What ever religion you may ascribe to, there is no justification for violence to another human being.
- Donaverde April 6, 2009 5:13PM
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If it is banned, then why does every state in the United States have laws saying that it is legal? Another posted posted the laws under another thread.
- UltraConservative November 16, 2008 6:16PM
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Argumentum ad homenem, argumentum ad populem, and appeal to ridicule, three fallacies in such a short piece of writing. Perhaps, if the "expert" form the misnamed "Center for Effective Discipline" could make a reasoned, logical argument, it might be a more "effective" organization. As it is, all I see is hysteria-mongering.
- rdamurphy January 8, 2009 7:46AM
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It does not take objective evidence for an attached and bonded mother to know with great certainty that hitting her child is in no way natural, appropriate, or effective. Suggesting that spanking is a viable form of punishment simply because the human race has been practicing it for centuries is ridiculous. Man has perpetuated atrocities for all of time such as racism, classism, bigotry of all kinds. Does Mr. Rosemond condone these prejudices? It is this resistance to ideological evolution that will be the demise of mankind.
- Corrina621 August 9, 2008 2:24PM
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Socially, pretty sure we're devolving. More child abuse is going on, more women beating, more divorces, more murders, etc. Science (by the law of entropy) says we are getting worse.
(also, why didn't you mention with atrocities things like killing millions of Jews, allowing for dictators to kill milssions of people, etc.? Why are the "atrocities" you mentioned mental and psychological things? Isn't an atrocity a physical act of evil-doing?)
- reb412 August 30, 2008 9:11PM
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Actually where I live in Canada, I just saw in the paper that in 2008 compared with 2007 to date, that while homicide is up slightly, all other crimes such as sex crimes, car thefts both actual and attempted and break and enters are down substantially. Also, no police officer in this city of 700,000 has died in the line of duty since 1970 and there have been no school shootings since corporal punishment left the schools in 1983. Around here, it appears we are on the dawn of correction.
- edwin p
August 31, 2008 6:45PM
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I'm moving to where you live. :-)
That's an amazing statistic. Do you live in west Canada?
- reb412 August 31, 2008 7:36PM
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Yes, I'm from Western Canada, Winnipeg, Manitoba to be exact-ONE GREAT CITY & GATEWAY TO THE GOLDEN WEST!
- edwin p August 31, 2008 7:45PM
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I 've been out that way once in my life and loved it (I don't like eastern Canada).
- reb412 August 31, 2008 8:36PM
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Since corporal punishment left the schools, has it also left the homes? At least domestic corporal punishment is still allowed in Canada. You can't be sure just like you cannot possibly link school corporal punishment to school shootings. That'll be on the vague side.
You never can tell, maybe parents/guardians are just being better parents by giving their children the required discipline.
- daughterofgoodluck August 31, 2008 10:26PM
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Corporal Punishment is still in Canadian homes but as of the Supreme Court of Canada decision in 2004, it is very restricted. Only children from 2 to 12 can be spanked. Only an open hand can be used, absolutely no foreign objects and no hitting on the face or head. It must also be of a reasonable remedial nature and not done in anger. There is a Bill pending in Parliament to ban all corporal punishment but it appears that we are about to go into an election as we have a minority Government and in that case it will die on the order paper. Let's hope it will be reintroduced by whatever Government takes over if an election should occur which will probably be mid October. WE OWE IT TO THE CHILDREN OF CANADA TO SEE THAT THEY ARE PROTECTED FROM ALL ACTS OF VIOLENCE!
- edwin p September 1, 2008 3:37PM
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Yes I know very much about the 2 to 12 age-limit existing in Canada and all but the bottom line is that spanking is still allowed. Parents can still spank and they sure still do. Besides, that age-group is the one most commonly exposed to corporal punishment and in addition, the one in which the effectiveness of corporal punishment is mostly relevant, so what's the point in extending it further. All the same, there's no direct correlation between restriction (and even prohibition) and limitation of use by parents.
Also, when they say hitting on the face or head or hitting IN ANGER, that transcends the scope of a corrective spanking by far. It has become a case of VIOLENT hitting to let out emotions. If I spank my child, then that'll be a corrective punishment and not violence. Let me make it clear here that all forms of discipline, as sweet as they may sound, can become as violent as ever once anger accompanies the administration. Talk about time-out, we've seen children in our hospital with dislocated arms after the parent angrily picks up the child for a time-out. Is that not an act of violence, without even raising a finger to spank?
- daughterofgoodluck September 1, 2008 11:04PM
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Agreed. How can you link the two but by supposition? Just because school shootings have been down because of corporal punishment gone from the schools does not mean that is why it went down. Here in America, Corporal punishment went out of the Public Schools in Colorado when I was in 6th grade. That was 30 some years ago. It has not helped.
- UltraConservative November 16, 2008 6:21PM
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I don't believe we are getting instinctually or mentally worse. We make advances everyday in a myriad of fields. One thing that could explain many of those statistics are that we have more tools to do harm with now and with more outlets than ever before. Take WWI. There were so many advances in technology and weaponry that our weapons became more destructive, but we kept our same old wartime tendencies. That's why casualties were so high in that war. Our ways will never change, the sooner we realize that, the better. Our tools will change however, that's the "problem".
- GettinGwap January 29, 2009 1:55AM
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Sorry John but history is no guide as to what is right and wrong. At one time it was OK for husbands to whip wives,masters to whip servants,jailers to whip prisoners and officers to whip enlisted military men. Today, such practices are illegal and for good reason,it is cruel and inhuman. Why should children be any different? In fact a child's body is more prone to injury than an adult's. We have access to information on less violent ways to raise children, more than in any other age so we are without excuse like our forefathers were. It's high time we retired the rod and started following these new and less violent ways.
- edwin p August 24, 2008 1:18PM
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Actually I would disagree with "more than any other age." Morally speaking, mankind is degrading not getting better. We are not getting smarter, or more educated. We live in a time when the illiteracy rate is at its highest. People have always known other ways to discipline. It is whether or not people choose to use it.
- UltraConservative November 16, 2008 6:24PM
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"why have human parents been spanking children for longer than history records?"
How can you know anything about what happened before recorded history?
- nevermath October 4, 2008 1:01PM
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The reason the publishing industry, and therefore "educated" liberal society is opposed to spanking is because telling people in general to hit or spank a child is a liability. As a matter of public health policy you'd have to be against giving such advice, because of the cases where it's overused are a great cost to society (litigation, health, and child developmental costs).
But this is entirely beside the point of whether or not spanking a child actually is harmful or helpful. I personally believe it can be helpful when done sparingly and within a loving relationship that spends adequate time with the child on all occasions, not just those involving punishment.
Since there will always be a large number of overbearing parents that tend to harm their children in society, combined with the fact that these days people spend less time with their kids and not more, then policy should definitely not inform society to spank kids. The alternative, which is raising kids poorly and sending them to prisons 16 years down the line is much cheaper in the short term. Therefore science may not ever get a chance to be heard on this topic because society feels it has already "evolved" passed the question.
- harpoon November 18, 2008 12:50PM
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I would feel I failed as a parent if I resorted to physical discipline . I could never be convinced that a child who is 'slapped' or worse by his loving parent does not feel smaller and disrespected. I don't believe I am a hysterical individual because I don't believe in spanking . I just feel very strongly that children need to be treated with respect. When a child disobeys mildly or severely, he should be mildly or severely disciplined. Removing a favorite toy for a day or an evening can be very effective for some children. There are so many effective ways that work so much better than spanking. What parent hasn't had a fleeting desire to leave the house and lock the door behind? Children can be a trial at times, but so can parents. And what if spanking leaves bruises? Child abuse professionals spend a good deal of time studying various bruise patterns and the particular forms of abuse that caused them. The spanking excuse doesn't always fly.
- stngray April 27, 2009 6:58PM
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Children were hit throughout most of human history by whoever was stronger just as slaves and other vulnerable adults did.
Our violent human past (let alone present) is hardly a reason to continue hitting anyone if reason, science, true Christianty (following the actual teachings of Christ) and a growing respect of human rights shows us these things are harmful, unnecessary, and thus wrong to do.
At least Rosemond seems to know that the New Testament does not teach anyone to hit anyone. That's a start.
Not only does the "state" in the US not prevent parents from hitting children's buttocks, it actually performs routine ritual abuse itself with public school paddling in 21 states.
I guess Rosemond was joking when he said he hid his fetishes enough to pass as "normal," but many Christians hold deep dark fetishes related to spanking. I believe "Promise Keepers" found some 65% of church men attending had hidden problems with porno.
Its time to end the sick abuse.
- Jeff Charles July 26, 2008 4:16PM
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Rosemond commits the "Traditional Wisdom" Fallacy in his post, something every first year college student should know not to do. He assumes that because something has been done for a long time, it must be good. If that were true, then slavery, wars of conquest, and no votes for women would also have to be good things.
He also points out that he was spanked and turned out alright, as if that showed that spanking is not harmful. By that reasoning, if someone drives home drunk and doesn't have an accident, it would have been shown that driving drunk is not harmful.
Lastly, he blames lack of spanking for violence in society despite the fact that all the evidence shows the correlation runs the other way - that kids from spanking households are much more likely to be violent adults.
- Greg1 August 7, 2008 6:29AM
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I'm 42 years old. I grew up in a home where my mother spanked me. When she did spank me I knew why.
I believe as long as spanking is done with the right attitude and love we cannot go wrong.
Correcting a child out of anger is when it becomes wrong.
Love is correction.
I'm in constant contact with family and friends who do not correct by spanking their children and their children are very disrespectful to others including adults.
Taking their favorite toy, game, or time away with friends does not always work. That has been proven.
- kim42 August 27, 2008 8:35AM
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Is spanking 100% effective? If we are honest, we would have to say no. I read where a retired school principal at one time used corporal punishment. Towards the end of his career, he had given up using it. Why? Because the same people were coming back to his office again and again and he realized that it just wasn't working. There is no place you can hit on the body without running the risk of injury. To a child there is no loving in a spanking, all spanking even if the parent is supposedly doing it in love causes pain and creates a bad impression in the mind of a child.If an adult does wrong, we cannot spank them for it. Why should children be any different? There are non violent ways of correcting out there. While they may not work all the time, they do work most of the time. Please give them a fair chance. If one doesn't succeed, try another. We have electric lights today because Thomas Edison failed 1000 times but never gave up until he discovered a light bulb that worked.
- edwin p August 27, 2008 1:57PM
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There is no form of discipline that is 100% effective. If it were, then just telling your child no and why no, would work. However, each child is different, they have different personalities, and are their own individual person. If you tell a child the first time no, and they do it any way, What then? "Now son, I told you not to do that. I see we have a problem here, lets sit down and discuss this a while. Do you know what you did that was wrong?" That may work the first time, but what about the second time? "Son, now this is twice I have told you not to do that. This is becoming a habbit and we have got to deal with this..." Or what about the 3rd, 4th, 5th time? See where this is going? When I tell my son no, and he does it any way, the first time he gets lectured as to why not to do it. The second time, he gets restricted from his computer, the third, well, he gets a swat. 9 times out of 10, the swat works where the lectured did not. However, not all things that they do wrong merrit a spanking . For example, you do not spank a child for getting into the cookie jar before supper. That is senseless. However, on the other hand, when the child is blatently defiant, such as, "No, I am not going to do it, and you cannot make me." that is a different story. One swat on the padded parts will not kill them, nor will it injure their mind for life. It will however, let them know that disrespect will not be tollerated.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 10:14PM
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I know people who spanked their kids and those kids grew up to be horrible mean people. I also know people who didn't spank their kids, and the children turned out to be respectful, well adjusted people.
- illusion June 10, 2009 7:33PM
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Slavery also existed for centuries. So did racism, prejudice, and public executions. Hell, before indoor plumbing, "going to the bathroom" meant "squatting over a hole in the ground and ignoring the overwhelming stench". Does this justify suicide as an effective form of anti-depressant? I'm quite suicide has been along for a while ("Romeo and Juliet", anyone?)
What I'm trying to say is: just because people have been doing it for a long time, doesn't mean its right. People have been wrong before.
- NCHammer326 September 2, 2008 8:27PM
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Children often continue to love their parents regardless how much abuse they experience while growing up. The question is, if spanking is not necessary... why do it? What or who's needs are being served by spanking?
- rose September 15, 2008 1:48PM
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It's true that John Rosemond has only a master's degree. Therefore he shouldn't be called "Dr" or honored with the title PhD. He also shouldn't call himself "family psychologist" because you have to have a PhD to be considered a psychologist. John Rosemond simply isn't on the same educational or professional level as those he chooses to disagree with. He's got a 37 year old master's degree (from a time when very little was known about psychology) and this degree is from a lesser university. And that's it.
It's time for everyone to realize that John Rosemond is no expert. It must be very embarrassing to real psychologists that Rosemond claims he is one!
- SojournerTruth August 8, 2008 5:47PM
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I've seen abused children who were raped, beaten, and neglected turn to a parent and open up their arms with love and hopes of getting affection. They still want to be loved. The scars of abuse may fade away and some will go on to be very stable and happy people. What that proves is not that abuse is right. It proves that some people are quite resilient. Similarly a spanked child not hating their parents isn't proof that spanking was justified, necessary or appropriate. The loving and resilient nature of some children isn't an excuse to use corporal punishment. The reality is that it is not necessary to make children suffer to raise them to be loving, healthy, happy people - in fact it is easier to do so with kindness.
- barbz September 16, 2008 1:44PM
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I was spanked as a child and in the right context children can learn respect through it. If you need to spank daily however you need to find a new form of discipline cause its not working.
The average parent doesn't want to hurt their children, they want to teach them. If you're into spanking to hurt your children, thats child abuse. In my memory I only remembered actually getting spanked twice but it was more an emotional memory than a physical one. At most 3 slaps on the butt and I learned my lesson.
Parents need to find what works for them and their children. For example, I babysit an autistic boy. He doesn't respond to much except being removed from the situation. Scream at the top of your lungs all you want, he won't bat an eye. Hold his hands behind his back for a few seconds and he freaks out. Everything needs to be physical or it doesn't register.
- EAnthes December 9, 2008 3:58PM
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Most compelling of all reasons not to spank are the following (which can be verified by people who were actually spanked themselves by doing a little internet research):
Even without sexual motives on the part of the punisher, spanking can interfere with a child’s normal sexual and psychological development. Because the buttocks are so close to the genitals and so multiply linked to sexual nerve centers, slapping them can trigger powerful and involuntary sensations of sexual pleasure. This can happen even in very young children , and even in spite of great, clearly upsetting pain.
Tom Johnson Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
“Advocates of corporal punishment in schools should examine very carefully the weight of evidence now available and, particularly in light of the pornographic component, consider whether they can justify the continuation of a system with such a capacity for exciting unhealthy interest.”
British Psychological Society, “Report on Corporal Punishment in Schools” (1980)
“But what you would not so readily believe upon my affirmation, was that there are persons who are stimulated to venery by strokes of rods, and worked up into a flame of lust by blows... A strange instance what a power the force of education has in grafting inveterate ill habits on our morals...”
Johann Heinrich Meibom, physician, 1629
Unpleasant as this information is, we do our children a great disservice when we fail to acknowledge its truth.
Had we not turned a blind eye to the unpleasant phenomena of clergy abuse of children 20-30 years ago, many children would have been spared its devastating consequences. Peace.
- PDeverit May 5, 2009 5:39PM
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Rosemond dismisses all the research that faults spanking with a wave of his hand, saying the researchers are biased or by labeling them as "liberal" or "ersatz." Yet Dr. Elizabeth Gersoff, a highly respected professor at the University of MIchigan, has published, in a respected peer-reviewed scientific journal, a "meta-analysis" of spanking studies. This is an analysis of hundreds of previously published research studies on the topic, done to see if there is a coherent, conclusionary finding. The answer, the research does indeed show harm from spanking. Here is the evidence: Gershoff, E.T. (2002). Parental corporal punishment and associated child behaviors and experiences: A meta-analytic and theoretical review. Psychological Bulletin, Vol. 128, p539-579. Game over. The most solid studies out there are consistent, we should not be hitting kids, ever.
- Dr Robert Fathman August 1, 2008 6:36AM
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The vast majority of research shows serious problems associated with hitting children, especially increased aggression and anti-social behavior.
Dr. Straus is a very principled researcher who has studied the effects of corporal punishment on tens of thousands of children. Check out his website at the University of New Hampshire at Durham if you doubt his integrity. There are many other fine researchers as well, such as Dr. Harriet McMillan, Dr. Elizabeth Gershoff, Dr. Roy Herrenkohl, and Dr. Joan Durrant. Here's a study by McMillan Rosemond should look at, entitled "Slapping and spanking in childhood and its association with lifetime prevalence of psychiatric disorders". This study shows increased anxiety and alcohol abuse among teenagers and adults who were physically punished as children. Rosemond, in order to justify his claim of being a psychologist, needs to face the truth of this and other important studies.
- SojournerTruth August 2, 2008 5:37PM
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Rosemond claims that there is no evidence of the negative effects of spanking. Yet every single national pediatric, psycholoical, psychiatric and medical professional association in the entire western world disagrees with him. Don't take my word for it - look up what they say online. Are all these orgnaizations stacked with individuals with idealogical axes to grind? Or might Rosemond have an ideological axe to grind?
- Greg1 August 7, 2008 6:32AM
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Children are very different in many ways. They have different thoughts from us. What they understand and what we understand are totally different. Parents know the reason why they spank their children, but only some higher-ability children will link up the spanking to what they had just done. Some children do not understand, and thus resulting to misunderstandings between the child and the parent, resulting in the child thinking that the parent spanks for nothing, creating a fear for the parents.
Some parents also need to control their feelings when they spank. Some do spank too much. Being an expert debating about accepting spanking children, you do know better how to spank your children and what is enough for the child to understand. Therefore, your observations of your own children may not be reliable. The best way, without taking the risk of the child fearing the parents because he cannot understand why, is to explain to the child that he should not do that, instead of spanking.
- Rainie August 13, 2008 2:10AM
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You are right. It does depend. I have two children and both have been spanked as a means of punishment. Neither of them were ever spanked until they could understand that the spanking was connected with what they did wrong. They are never spanked in anger and never spanked for something they did wrong hours and hours ago. They are also not ever spanked for just any thing they do wrong. I said that to say this, Both of my boys are of the higher ability children that you speak of. My 5 year old functions on the level of a 4th grader and my 7 year old funtions on the level of a 6th grader. I attribute that to the fact that they have the uttermost of my wife and I's attention to them and to the fact that they are taught in a Private School. They have in no way been damaged by the fact that they have been spanked.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 10:20PM
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The problem here is that parents should not leave it up to the child to "link up the spanking to what they had just done." Spanking a child and not telling them why they were just spanked IS confusing and wrong. One does not have to be an expert to know to spank a child, and spanking is not a substitute for explaining what a child did wrong. Any time my father spanked me, he asked, "Do you know why I had to spank you?". Then he would explain what I had done wrong and why he had to punish me. I may not have understood why I was being spanked at first, but after he explained, I not only knew what I had done wrong, I also knew what the consequences of my actions were. If children's minds are capable of understanding why not to do something, they are capable of understanding that spanking is the consequence of their action.
- nclark January 25, 2009 11:30PM
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While I have read the research and am impressed by the very clear connection between corporal punishment and a variety of negative outcomes, the single most compelling evidence against spanking comes from a questions my then three year old asked the first time he witnessed corporal punishment. One day in a museum he saw a parent spank a child and scold them for climbing. He was utterly shocked and made comments for the rest of the day. "How could that mama hit her baby?" "why wouldn't she just explain to him what he did wrong?" "parents aren't supposed to hurt their kids" "that mommy was mad and she should have taken a break, she made a mistake".
So much for kids not seeing spanking as a form of hitting. It was entirely clear to our son that hitting is hitting. It is mistaken, lazy parenting and kids deserve better.
- barbz September 16, 2008 1:26PM
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Do you feel you have more information on the subject than just a few mentioned here? Personally, I am curious as to why you feel the need to safegaurd such a bad habit?
American Acadamy of Pediatrics
Straus,Murray Co-Director of the
Family Research Laboratory at the
University of New Hampshire
UNESCO
Alvin Poussaint, M.D., Professor of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School. From "Spanking Strikes Out" , 1999.
The United Nations (Convention on
the Rights of the Child)
MedHeadlines
Spanking Kids Causes Sexual
Problems, February 29, 2008
Greven,Philip,Professor at
Rutgers University,Aggression and
Delinquency,(1990),
Global Initiative to End All
Corporal Punishment of Children
To name just a few
- PDeverit May 5, 2009 5:38PM
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If you had taken the time to read what Rosemond writes, cites, and condones/admonishes in his writing (books), then you would notice that there are accompanying citations (they site research and studies that have been done)... that's firstly. That refutes the baseless claim of lack of facts and/or verifiable experience from which to draw. Secondly -- and again, something that would have been understood had you taken the time to check out what you were disagreeing with before actually stating that it was flawed-- is that he does not specifically condone spanking . He views it as a viable child-rearing tool, but one that should be reserved for specific cases where you need to get the child's attention as they are losing control. (Tantrum, etc) Also that is caveated with a general-type guideline for use, stating that once a child is four or older, it theoretically shouldn't be happening much more than once a month. He specifically argues the widely-accepted belief that spanking is a child-rearing philosophy in and of itself. He examines the Biblical teaching that addresses sparing the rod and comes to the (well-researched) conclusion that the rod does NOT in fact refer to physically punishing the child. Next time, I would highly advise checking out your facts before making such an uninformed claim. -Maria
- etomaria January 20, 2009 10:00PM
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*He specifically argues *against* the widely-accepted belief that spanking is a child-rearing philosophy in and of itself...
I accidently put "argues", which makes it sound like he advocates it. Just for clarification.
- etomaria January 20, 2009 10:37PM
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Oh dear. Arguing from the Bible is an immediate sign to me that there will be little evidence and much dogma in your position. The Bible also promotes stoning children to death for cursing their parents, amongst other savoury practices.
- bpdlr
July 24, 2008 3:42AM
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The Bible does not PROMOTE stoning children. Try again.
- reb412 August 30, 2008 10:38AM
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The classic reference which seems to be interpreted by some as promoting the stoning of children, is not completely clear about the age of the "son" mentioned. In all versions it specifically mentions the "son" eating too much and being a drunk. I will leave it to others to decide on this verses meaning.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
Actually Deuteronomy is a mine field of stoning sons and daughters to death but again does not seem to relate the age of these people.
- Musfuut October 26, 2008 3:29AM
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"Do I need to tell you what they’ve all told me? I didn’t think so." Um, actually, some evidence would be helpful.
- bpdlr July 24, 2008 3:44AM
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John Rosemond says that the rod in the Bible is symbolic rather than literal. I agree with him on that.If that is the case then why does he even think about hitting children when there is no Scriptural justification for it. He is following tradition rather than the Bible and tradition is not reliable.
- edwin p August 13, 2008 9:54AM
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So if it's symbolic.....what is it symbolizing?
- reb412 August 30, 2008 10:37AM
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In answer to your question, the Rod as described in the Book of Proverbs stands for authority, not hitting. The word discipline comes from the same word disciple and means teaching. As a result, using the Rod means teaching as in pointing to lessons on a wall much like a teacher in a classroom. We must remember that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, not English originally. Unlike the English Language, the Hebrew Language uses a lot of symbols, metaphors and figures of speech to describe things and therefore it must not always be taken literally in the same way as the English Language. When we try to interpret things in the way English does, we often arrive at the wrong conclusions. This is something we must remember if we want to gain a proper understanding of the Bible.
- edwin p August 30, 2008 11:30AM
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That's interesting because I know Hebrew. And the word is literally "tree branch" which is mentioned almost 200 times in most texts (with different synonyms, like "tribe" or "group" of course). Only a handful of times is it mentioned metaphorically (i.e. Ge 49.10 mentions it as a position of authority). But in context, in whatever language, "sparing the stick" doesn't metaphorically translate well "sparing the authority". Or whatever other word you can think of. It's obviously talking about something physical.
Pr 23.14 makes it pretty clear:
"You shall beat him with the rod, and shall deliver his soul from sheol."
You're right, Hebrew definitely has some expressionist metaphors, hebrewism, etc. but this is not one of those times.
- reb412 August 30, 2008 11:45AM
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The interpretation that the Rod refers to pointing to lessons on the wall was obtained by me from a quote by a Jewish Rabbi from Pennsylvania by the name of Larry Kaplan. Being a Rabbi, I'm quite sure that he would be familiar with OT Hebrew and customs. Also, to beat doesn't necessarily mean to hit. When the sun is beating down on a roof, is it striking it with a rod? No, it is shining down on it. In the same way, beating with a rod means coming across to your children in such a way that they will have no trouble paying attention to you and understanding what you have to say. By the way, were you aware that in Israel where the Sabbath is still faithfully observed, all corporal punishment of children is against the law?
- edwin p August 31, 2008 7:00PM
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Yes "beating" can mean different things in English but as you mentioned before....the OT was written in Hebrew....and the word "beating" in English is the translation of a Hebrew word that COULD NOT be used with "the sun was beating down". Seriously. In other English translations, it's translated as "smite", "strike", etc. In my two different Spanish Bible translations, it's "castigarás con vara" and "herirás con vara" which is unmistakable. The Hebrew word is clear (so are all the other translations, frankly).
I'm not familiar with this rabbi but would question him on it (especially depending on what type of rabbi he is). Many of the rabbis I know don't believe the Old Testament holds any authoritative value to them and thus their interpretations are severely slanted (and usually have an agenda).
I'm glad you quoted a rabbi though. :-) It's more scholarly than what some of these people on this site have been doing..
Also, I didn't know that about Israel, thanks for pointing that out. Interesting.
- reb412 August 31, 2008 7:33PM
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Let's look at the verse in context:
Proverbs 23:13
"Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die."
How many parents would be concerned with their children DYING from being talked to or given a time out? Obviously, this is talking about physical beating if he is discussing the physical outcome. Notice, however, that the child will NOT die from being beaten with a rod. The purpose of these verses is to tell parents that causing a child physical pain early on in life is a small price if it makes him a better person and saves his soul.
- nclark January 25, 2009 9:32PM
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That is completely correct. Sometimes people take issues what out of porportion. They need to realize that many arguments are not literal - if fact the Bible has tons of parables, metaphors, and similies. There are actually quite a few examples in Luke 6 and 7.
- Edgin7 February 12, 2009 2:07PM
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The Old Testament is full of laws and traditions not practiced by modern Christians. Why are defenders of spanking zeroing in on this one portion? Why do you pick and choose which sections of the Bible are mandatory and which ones aren't? Christ said he has a better way than an eye for an eye. Why don't you believe Him?
The Bible is not a valid arguement for striking a child.
- crunchymom September 18, 2008 4:06AM
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If you say that and I quote "The Bible is not a valid argument for striking a child." Then that leads me to conclude that you do not believe that God has a valid argument and should not be respected as much as a human being as far as opinions are concerned. Therefore I'm not sure how much respect I can have for your opinions if you don't have any respect for my Creator's. However, I am not one to pick and choose I follow simply the new testament and the portions of the old testament mentioned in the New Testament as still valid. I do this because of the book of Hebrews where it talks of the old covenant being done away with and the new one taking its place.
- eJones January 25, 2009 10:20PM
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I believe the bible to be literal, but you are right some use it in the wrong way. I do not think spanking is a bad thing as long as it is used when you are not angry. To not spank is O.K. as well but there are times when maybe it should be instituted.
I think people who are spanked once in a while grow up to be better people.
- feeper December 19, 2008 7:52AM
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I agree. . . people don't need to take things so literally. In fact, there are many metaphors that were used in the Bible. Where could metaphors begin but in the book that talks about all beginnings? A world, generations of people, many languages, figurative language used in languages, and yes, metaphors.
- Edgin7 January 25, 2009 9:58PM
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I'm going to throw rocks at him outside the front gates.
- quantummechanik May 26, 2009 3:33PM
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The Christian Bible encourages killing those who do not believe the same thing you do, women as property, racism , slavery, homophobia, ignorance - this is just like justifying Spanking with the Koran or George Orwell's 1984.
Would you assault a disabled person on the street if they did something that is legal , does not hurt you but you do not like anyways. We need to rise above the temptation to assault others.
- JessicaSideways October 7, 2009 3:18PM
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How's is it that now we can't read Proverbs and say, "Oh this is the book of wisdom....we should do what it says." Proverbs is just as important as the Gospel Records and has just as much authority as the books regarding Jesus.
Also, Jesus never had any children.....and why would he have disciplined children for wanting to see him? Now, if you're saying we spank kids for wanting things (like seeing Jesus) the I agree....but it's clear in the Bible what God thinks of things like rebellion (he calls it witchcraft actually).
- reb412 August 30, 2008 10:14AM
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Extracted from the website above:
The results of corporal punishment, as described in the Bible:
As mentioned above, from a conservative Protestant point of view, it is probable that these passages in Proverbs describe Solomon's own parenting style when he raised his son Rehoboam. The Bible subsequently records the negative effect that this parenting style had on his son. Rehoboam became a widely hated ruler after his father's death. At one point, he had to make a hasty retreat to Jerusalem to avoid being assassinated by his own people:
1 Kings 12:13-14: "And the king [Rehoboam] answered the people roughly, and forsook the counsel of the old men which they had given him, and spake to them after the counsel of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add to your yoke: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions." (ASV)
1 Kings 12:18: "Then king Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was over the men subject to taskwork; and all Israel stoned him to death with stones. And king Rehoboam made speed to get him up to his chariot, to flee to Jerusalem." (ASV)
These same events are recorded in 2 Chronicles 10:6-19.
It can be argued that:
Most conservative Protestants believe that the Bible is completely accurate and inerrant - free of error.
The passages in Proverbs probably accurately and precisely portray Solomon's parenting style.
As an adult, Solomon's son Rehoboam, was vicious, unfeeling, inconsiderate to his subjects, had no regard for human rights, and was widely hated. He barely escaped assassination at the hands of his own people.
Perhaps the Bible's true message here is: If you don't want your children to grow up to be like Rehoboam, then you should not follow Solomon's parenting style, as it is accurately described in the Bible.
You should avoid using spanking or any other form of corporal punishment.
These conclusions seem to agree with recent studies which indicate that one out of every three boys has a genetic problem that will almost certainly cause him to engage in criminal or anti-social acts later in life if he is physically abused. It is unknown what level of corporal punishment will push these children over the edge and make them become violent and aggressive as adults."
- crunchymom November 5, 2008 12:28AM
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I just finished updating our corporal discipline link to include an opposing view response to this link:
www.religioustolerance.org/spankin8.htm
Our response is at this link:
www.creationists.org/corporal-discipline.html #eisegesis
I didn't read all of the replies to this posting, but the ones I did read all appeared to have one thing in common. The authors don't have a proper understanding of what the Bible actually has to say on the matter of corporal discipline. Our link will help to clarify some of the points. However, the best explanation we've ever seen anywhere is a videotape by Dr. S. M. Davis. We don't sell any products of any kind on our web site, but we do refer people to materials that we believe to be of high quality. This tape will set the record straight on this matter:
http://store.solvefamilyproblems.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=S&Product_Code=010285&Category_Code=Parenting
We have six children ages 5 - 24. We have used these tried and true methods of discipline. They not only work very well, but they have virtually none of the alleged side affects that the so called secular "experts" claim they do. In fact we regularly receive compliments on how well behaved and how mature our children are. We don't take the credit for that. We give all the credit to God because it was he who taught us the best way to train and discipline our children.
- creationists February 27, 2009 5:35PM
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In this argument Rosemond gives great reasons to never hit kids, but he then supports hitting them. He says "certain" kids should be hit -- which ones, how he defies this, is never said. Let's here it, what kids should and should not be hit Rosemond, what are your criteria? How hard should those kids be hit, and how does a parent know how much force they are using? Are bruises acceptable consequences? Red marks? White marks? What is you have two children, and one fits his criteria for "it's ok to hit this one" but the other does not -- how devastating to the struck child is that?
Good discipline is instilled in the mind, not the behind. Rosemond needs to re-evaluate his position and apologize to the many children out there growing up with bad memories caused by his advice to their parents.
- Dr Robert Fathman August 1, 2008 6:47AM
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Spanking should be used as a last resort if it is effective. There's always another option to getting a message across to a child and whatever your methods, there is also always a limit as to how far you should go. I'm not saying a pat on the behind or a total beating will get a message into a child's head, but you as a parent should know the limit. As Rosemond said, it depends on what form of discipline is effective with your child and you shouldn't beat your child for just the heck of it, but to show them when they are doing something right or wrong.
- krispy January 23, 2009 10:34PM
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Patience is an imperative key when disciplinig children. It is hard to accomplish, but we've all got to remember that these are children. They are very impatient. Controlled patience allows the parent to analyze the situation and find a creative way to discipline and to teach the child what they are doing is wrong. Patience is a quality that most people do not have, but as an adult, the "mature human," it is important that as a parent, practicing patience will better the circumstances. Spanking is not always effective because it shows the child that you do not have the patience for the child to actually teach them the misbehavior as a misbehavior.
- Norm44 February 20, 2009 11:44AM
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Egad, i just read this woman's so called "expert" comments.." I don't recommend spanking or not??" I am a parent, raised 2 sons without ever using physical punishment. I have worked with literally hundreds of children , teens , and young adults as mentors, substitue dad, shoulder to cry on, or just a sounding board, people that have SUFFERED from a "simple spanking." You have no idea the emotional or mental makeup of any child, expert, to say that spanking in any way, shape, or form should ever be done or allowed. Do you know that schools still spank in this country? 20 states STILL allow, and others that ban in public schools allow in private religious ones, spanking. They allow these kids to be bent over, often in front of other students, to be beaten and battered with a 2-3 pound board until the child/student is either crying and/or severely humiliated and embarrased. What, expert, exactly is the lesson taught here?
I believe truely we NEED LAWS banning it. It's because by allowing it by law , we open up all too ofen "pandora's box" that can have devasting results with a child or a teenager! Sorry, but your advice BLEW IT. You should be ashamed of yourself for calling yourself an expert..clearly you are not, or you did not think your response through at all.
Seattledad..a loving parent that does not believe in punishment..rather age appropriate consequences that TEACH and EDUCATE a child/teen to allow them, teach them to make better choices
- Seattledad August 5, 2009 1:03PM
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i agree spanking is ok although it needs to be done correctly although i do not agree that they should have ever taking spanking out of the school system because now a days what are they gonna do suspend you news flash people dont care they see that as a vacation
- spanker October 14, 2009 8:16PM
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Rosemond commits what is known as "The Slippery Slope Fallacy", by assuming that if the state forbids hitting children, then it will pass more regulations until it has overwhelming control. By this reasoning, if the state continues to forbid hitting your neighbor, then it will pass more regulations until it has overwhelming control.
- Greg1 August 7, 2008 6:36AM
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If there is a separation of church and state, there should be a separation of state and parent/child relationships unless the relationship is unhealthy and is causing harm to either the parent or child.
As for, "bureaucracy will seek to expand itself, as all bureaucracies do", I agree. Those who are given something, want more and more of it. If the state can already control activities we do or don't do at work and school, why should they have control of what we do at home? If the state is controlling the method of discipline a parent is using with their child then the state and not the parent is controlling the development of that individual. Even though government interference is not a bad thing for some families since the parents are unfit to take care of their children in a safe manner, those parents probably shouldn't have had kids in the first place.
- krispy February 15, 2009 11:12AM
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If you hit an adult, it would be considered assault. But for some reason, if you hit your child, it is considered perfectly okay and even encouraged. What's even better is that most of the people who condone spanking are the same people who support an "embryo's right to life".
- pdethier March 16, 2009 6:30PM
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It's hitting that is illegal. I love the link you attached as it's very informative, I learned new stuff. Thanks.
This should be mentioned about these States that banned corporal punishment (Using the swiss as an example):
"The Swiss supreme court ruled in July 2003 that parents have a limited right to smack their children. Anything beyond an occasional smack will constitute a criminal offense the court said."
Also, I lived in Peru for awhile and travelled to Chile quite a lot and though Chile is in the list.....they certainly spank their kids there! :-)
(more on the link you submitted: http://www.stophitting.com/laws/legalReform.php )
- reb412 August 30, 2008 8:52PM
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Chances are since the law in Chile just went into effect recently, you were probably there when spanking was still legal.When the law went into effect in Sweden in 1979, 90% of Swedish parents believed in spanking. Now almost 30 years later, 90% of Swedish parents do not believe in spanking children. Give the law a chance. You should not expect miracles to happen overnight. We don't abolish laws against murder just because murders still occur. Any lowering of the rate of children being hit or abused is a step in the right direction.
- edwin p August 31, 2008 7:08PM
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I guess semantics and definitions are where the lines get blurred.
"Now almost 30 years later, 90% of Swedish parents do not believe in spanking children."
Do they not believe in spanking or do they not believe it's right to hit a child?
I don't believe it's right to hit a child....but I believe that spanking is different than "striking" or "hitting" a child.
It seems that a lot of these laws passed in the EU make a distinction between the two (as they still allow for spanking...swatting...or whatever you want to call it). So that's why I ask. If 90% of the parents say they do not believe in "spanking" it could be semantics as they might still "swat" their children (as the law states they are allowed).
- reb412 August 31, 2008 7:47PM
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I think that what is meant in the EU Laws is the fact that the law is not going to prosecute every single little tap on the wrist. Also, parents are allowed to grab children to pull them away from danger such as speeding cars and hot stoves. The purpose of the law is to control parents who can't control themselves and then turn around and use the Law as a nursemaid to try and keep them out of trouble. In other words, before they hit a child, they should think twice and not expect the law to bail them out if they go too far. Under our proposed Canadian Law, all cases would have to go through the Attorney General which would act as a filter to prevent parents from being prosecuted for frivilous reasons and thus assuring that only cases with merit would ever see the inside of a courtroom.
- edwin p September 1, 2008 3:50PM
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Yes that does make sense. I do still emphasize that someone who is striking their child (out of impulse, anger, etc.) is not "really" spanking. But protection should probably be offered for things such as you mentioned. I am curious what the stats are on what level of income, types of families, etc. that the most child abuse occurs in.
One of the things I'm worried about with passing this type of law is the enforcement of it. Everyone has a different definition of discipline and if a neighbor has an extreme view of "child abuse" (for instance...my neighbor thinks it's a form of mental abuse to say "no" to a child in a raised tone) than you're going to have parents calling in and accusing ridiculous things because they define it differently.
- reb412 September 1, 2008 5:25PM
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The claim is made that the Center of Effective Discipline is not objective on the grounds that they are against spanking. By this reasoning, anyone who is in favor of spanking is also not objective.
If you want an objective opinion, check out the summaries of the evidence by the various national psychological, pediatric, psychiatric and medical professional associations of the western world. Every single one that comments on the issue (and I'm not counting political pressure groups that require you to have a certain viewpoint before joining) surveys the evidence and concludes that spanking is bad for children.
If Rosemond could demonstrate that the scientific community were wrong, then he could publish in scientific journals and become famous.
- Greg1 August 7, 2008 6:23AM
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Sorry, I've read many of the journals of the psychs, peds, etc. and they are not as objective / scientific as you might think...many have a specific agenda that affects their "research". This is especially true with the psychiatric field. Most of the journals I've read are psycho-babel in scientific theory (which I'm not saying we should throw them out the window....just saying they should be read with understanding and a little bit of caution).
Rearing children is an important thing and heeding to scientific theories is a dangerous way to guide our children. Scientific theories cannot replace wisdom in social matters, no matter what it is. If experience (which is a form of wisdom) knows how the whole thing works...then I say looking back for a couple centuries, with objectivity, for ideas isn't a bad thing.
It's the same in biz...I own a biz and would hire someone with experience over anyone with a degree in how the biz should work theoretically. Should we all learn the theories, yes.
Should we understand how to make things better, yes.....but arm chair psychs can't rule how we raise precious, mold able children.
- reb412 August 30, 2008 9:39PM
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Spanking promotes violence. There are better and more effective ways for parents to achieve the goal of well behaved children. These methods require thought, time and self discipline on the part of the parent. Spanking is the lazy parents way.
- Blueschix August 7, 2008 6:24AM
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What methods would you suggest for teaching a 2 year old he/she shouldn't bit her sibling?
- reb412 August 30, 2008 9:40PM
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"nature" meaning the tendency in every human person to do the wrong thing. When a child doesn't listen in the classroom...the school has corrective punishment in play to make sure the child is listening. If a student is lazy and doesn't study for an exam.....a big fat "F" is corrective punishment. When someone speeds to much, our government has corrective punishment rules to ensure its citizens obey the laws. I would say "corrective punishment" is pretty well defined without someone having to tell you what it is.
I love how you guys throw around hitting and spanking. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
"a spanking with some instructive words, that justifies the hitting."
Actually should read
"a spanking with some instructive words, that justifies the spanking."
I think you guys use the word "hitting" when referring to spanking because you think it makes your case strong.
In order for you to win that argument....you'd have to go in to a dictionary and change the definition of spanking.
"all parents in 24 other nations in the world, effectively raise healthy children without ever hitting them."
If you mean "spanking" when you say "hitting" You are assuming that their citizens obey that law. Several countries, including Nepal (which is kind of laughable that they have that law there of all places) have never once enforced the law.
Many of the 24 countries you mention allow spanking. Some of those countries allow spanking within certain criteria only, etc.
So broadly using those 24 countries as a platform for eliminating a slap on the butt isn't a good idea. Especially since most of them have clearly defined the difference between spanking and hitting a child in their laws.
- reb412 August 31, 2008 5:59AM
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What studies? What numbers? Please, no hand waving citing of "they say" or "studies show..."
- Llantha July 27, 2008 9:27AM
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It all depends on the circumstances. When your child does something good, you positively reinforce that by doing something positive. But if your child does something wrong, sometimes the only way to get him to stop repeatedly doing it is to spank him. Keep in mind that nobody is advocating BEATING a child, but a spanking them once or twice to get their full attention has to remain a parental tool.
For example, think about it from this perspective: You are a child whose parents never discipline you physically, even when you repeatedly do physical things that break/damage people/belongings after being told to stop and given alternatives. So now you go to school and continue the bad behavior. What will likely happen if you start touching or hurting people? Eventually someone will hit you, very hard, to get you to stop. And you'll stop, because you don't want to get beat.
Obviously it all depends on the situation, but without a powerfully negative reinforcement (motivator) available to stop or curb bad behavior, a child who knows this will continue to misbehave.
- ozzy og kush September 17, 2008 3:38PM
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I am very familiar with spanking -- was spanked dozens of times myself, and spank my own children. I am also very familiar with those who do not spank. Instead of simple commands that yield obedience, it is "You come NOW!! If you don't come by five (all between clenched teeth) I will...
1...2...3..."
What is most abusive anyways? There is no such conflict between the parents and children of those who understand obedience and where authority rests. Spanking instills in children an understanding of cause and effect, of justice, and it brings a release from guilt.
There is no way anyone will convince me that spanking my children makes them violent, when many non-spanking parents let their children play video games of shooting and killing and say it is harmless.
Obviously spanking is not the key for every situation, but it is essential for teaching the fundamentals of life.
Notice how the center for effective discipline uses the word "hit " instead of spank? I think it shows that they just don't get the fundamentals of the place and purpose of spanking.
- DMartin October 7, 2008 8:05PM
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Parents don't simply "hit" their children just to stop their current behavior - parents have good intentions as long as their actions are not over the top. When i was kid and if i did something bad i would get a small pat on the rear. . . do i have mental incapabilities today? do i have handicapped reasoning skills? do i have trouble socializing with people? No. I am a normal, healthy person who has morals, and lives by them. Reasonable discipline is not a negative thing and its not a form of abuse.
- Edgin7 January 25, 2009 9:44PM
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The action of spanking does stop bad behavior in the short term, but the long term effects can be just as positive. Children learn to respect their parents' authority when they know that misbehavior will result in spanking. Occasional spanking can even reduce the amount a parent needs to discipline a child. For example, my father spanked me as a child, and I learned to obey him when he gave "the look" because I knew what would happen next. After I learned that spanking was a posibility when I misbehaved, he rarely had to spank me again. Spanking is not only about punishment; it is about establishing parental authority.
- nclark January 25, 2009 10:32PM
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As one who was spanked as a child, I do feel that it is an effective form of discipline. All of this controversy arises due to the various definitions of spanking . Spanking and child abuse are two completely different stories. Spanking is not a beating – in fact, spanking is not even the punishment itself. Spanking is the first step in the discipline process. When a child is in the midst of breaking a rule, a quick tap on the butt gets their attention. This spank is not the punishment, but it stops the child in their tracks and makes them listen to what the parent has to say. The punishment then ensues, coming in the form of words. A parent can tell the child what they did wrong, that they broke a rule, and send them to their room, no harm done. A child’s tears do not come from the smart of the smack, but from the guilt of disrespecting their parents and knowing they did wrong.
- kas43091 February 8, 2009 6:46PM
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I agree completely. In most cases a child has a warning also, its not as if a parent just loses control after a kid does or says something inappropriate. Most parents iniate a countdown like "one. . . two. . ." or warn them "you better stop." When I was a little kid and was throwimg a temper tantrum my mom would always tell me "you better stop this behavior before I get to three." Then she would start counting and it would work everytime and I would stop when she got to two.
- Edgin7 February 10, 2009 9:27AM
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I appreciate the concern which is been rose. The things need to be sorted out because it’s not about the individual but it can be with everyone.
real estate
- Provenor
April 27, 2009 10:44PM
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I agree that when you get spanked for doing something wrong, you stop for the momment. But you do that same wrong doing and you get spanked yet again. I think that you should use an alternative besides spanking . When I babysit my little sisters, my mom always tells me to find better ways to reprimand them when they are misbehaving. She tells me that instead of spanking them, i could put them on the wall and let them stand there for at least three minutes. Once the three minutes are up, you explain to them what they did wrong and make them understand that it was wrong and have them tell you they understand. Usually they understand, and if they don't, it's okay. We have to remember these are just kids who are still learning the obstacles that they are taking to create their life and their personalities. We have to have patience with them and give them time to realize that something is not right.
- Norm44 February 11, 2009 11:48AM
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I understand that different people have different ways of discipling children, but I ultimately think that spanking is an acceptable form of discipline - when its used with discretion. In most cases, making a child sit in a chair or putting them in a corner helps, but if you watch some of those reality shows on t.v. it doesn't always work effectively in every situation.
- Edgin7 February 12, 2009 2:16PM
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Good spanking is done in the context of good parenting . Bad spanking is done in the context of bad parenting. Bad spanking produces bad results. Arguing a particular form of teaching is inherently effective or ineffective misses the point.
Good spankers employ other means 98% of the time and are smart enough to know it has value.
As most things in life--the issue is the appropriate time and place. What the anti-spankers are really highlighting, in my mind, is that most spanking is not good and is not being done in the context of good parenting. What I am saying is that you have done absolutely nothing for me by advocating I never spank.
- letjusticerolldown April 4, 2009 7:28PM
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Just for the record: Rosemond has an MA in his field, I have a Ph.D. in mine. We both are "experts" on the results of hitting children. In fact (as opposed to a selective reading of the Old Testament), no studies have ever shown (contra Rosemond) that spanking has beneficial results. The consensus is that it has severe & longlasting bad results for children under the age of 2 or past puberty, and about 20% of other kids. Why take the chance for nothing?
Many advocates of "Biblical chastisement" write separate arguments for Punitive Christian and secular audiences. Is Rosemond one of them?
- rkd August 9, 2008 8:07AM
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Stop comparing child raising and law enforcement.
- Adam Hammond November 12, 2008 2:54PM
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First of all, you beg the question by pretending that all spanking is abuse. If that were the case, then this discussion is ridiculous. Clearly, spanking is not abuse. And stating that prisoners were abused as children has no intellectual value with respect to this discussion. We are talking about spanking. Secondly, to say that parents who spank will become abusive is again, confusing the two, unlike things.
- Llantha July 27, 2008 9:30AM
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I think spanking leads a child to fear thier parents and not trust them. Now, if your child is running towards the street, then a tap on thier bottom is ok. Only if they do something life threatening. I spanked my oldest all the time. He is a great young man now. Now, by the grace of God I have an autistic 3 yr old. He is non-verbal and doesn't understand me. When I smacked his hand the look in his eyes was unbearable. Then he smacked my hand. Now he does it all the time. So no, spanking is unacceptable....and has a negative impact on a young child.....
- momof2alienboys July 27, 2008 8:03PM
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Hitting a child to inflict pain is abuse, of course. This discussion is ridiculous, I agree. If you were in one of the 24 countries that have banned hitting children then you would be obliged to say it was abuse because legally it's abuse.
I notice the cute pictures of a rabbit and kitten here. Hitting a bunny or kitten is abuse. Those who then say whacking a child is "not abuse" are serious hypocrites.
"Demagoguery" accurately describes the Rosemond rhetoric we see here. Demagoguery: "impassioned appeals to the prejudices and emotions of the populace." US parents are prejudiced and generally ignorant about child-hitting. They want the "right" to keep swinging away and Rosemond appeals to them. That's why his books sell and why he's rich. And why he spends most of his time in his fancy house in the Bahamas.
- SojournerTruth August 15, 2008 9:20AM
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One time my son would have been given corporal punishment because he had refused to pick up a piece of trash another student had thrown onto the ground. He advised that they would be sued individually, & his father would also seek to have assault charges filed against each person involved. The principal called me to verify my son's statements. I got my legal counsel on a conference call & spelled out what would befall each person involved in the decision to apply corporal punishment. No corporal punishment was administered. I had the resources to back my promise of legal retaliation, & I knew not one of them had the money to defend themselves in a personal lawsuit, nor were they authorized to cause the school district to incur the cost of responding to a lawsuit. Regardless of what the school was “legally” allowed to do, they feared an adverse personal financial outcome & backed off – gutless cowards. My son did not get swatted.
- mrgmhale August 25, 2008 5:34AM
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The only side effect that being spanked as a child had on me was being able to determine a sense of right and wrong, and an utmost respect for my parents and other adults. WHAT AWFUL THINGS FOR A CHILD TO LEARN! Reading this argument, I was deeply offended, because basically you are saying that my parents abused me.
- KeriCatastrophe August 25, 2008 7:27AM
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Regardless of the outcome, the end does not justify the means. Yes, your parents were probably sincere and your thoughts are sincere but that still doesn't justify using violent means to get a point across. There are plently of non violent ways to teach a child right from wrong out there. You are as close to them as your computer. A child's mind is capable of absorbing things at an early age and your parents should have been finding out what to say and then passing it on to you. There are lots of web sites that talk about parenting without spanking. SEEK AND YOU WILL FIND!
- edwin p August 25, 2008 3:55PM
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Let's see what the dictionary has to say about the word violent.
vi·o·lent [vahy-uh-luhnt] –adjective
1. acting with or characterized by uncontrolled, strong, rough force
Now in the case of a parent VIOLENTLY (uncontrolled, strong, rough force) spanking a child, then of course I agree, that is wrong. That was never the case with my parents. My parents also explained everything to me clearly before receiving my punishment, so that I understood why I was getting it. It was not "violent", and it was completely appropriate.
- KeriCatastrophe August 26, 2008 11:50AM
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In the mind of a small child, anything that causes pain is violence. They just don't have the capacity to see the distinction between beating and spanking. Were you aware that the buttocks is a sexual zone and hitting a child there could mess them up sexually later in life? If I as a male employer was to hit a female employee on the buttocks because she misbehaved, I could be arrested and charged with sexual harassment. However, if she was a student in school under 18 in a paddling State, I could legally hit her buttocks with a wooden board and no charges could be laid against me. What is wrong here?
- edwin p August 31, 2008 7:22PM
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"A child's mind is capable of absorbing things at an early age and your parents should have been finding out what to say and then passing it on to you."
"They (children) just don't have the capacity to see the distinction between beating and spanking ."
It's hard to believe that these two arguments are from the same person, let alone the same conversation, but they are. How a child can be incapable of understanding the difference between a swat on the butt and a beating, but are able to understand why they shouldn't do what they do is beyond me. I am all for trying out different ways of parenting, but you've got to admit defeat eventually. How many times have you seen someone else's kid throwing a temper tantrum in a store, or doing something they rude, or dangerous, or anything else a kid shouldn't be doing in public, and heard the parent trying to coax them into being good, or try to bribe them, or very firmly tell them "no," or, worst of all, just ignore it, to no avail? When's the last time you heard a kid call an adult sir or ma'am? Obviously, there's something wrong with the way that America is doing discipline these days, because I'm pretty sure the kids haven't changed. Are there ways of disciplining your kids without spanking them? Sure. Is every parent Supernanny? No.
- richardsonkr January 22, 2009 8:24PM
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I have to agree to an axtent about that whatever works do it, but without going to far of course. But at least before beating a child eaither with a belt or hand to try talk to them first in an asertive tone to get their attention and try to see what the problem is at hand then, if that doesnt work taking other measures if necasary to. but i do agree with your point of veiw though.
- Karebear April 26, 2009 3:47PM
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but i also have been abused when i was a child, and that would be the biggest reason why i really dont agree with it in a way. And having that happen i dont really hate people that often but i can now say that i definetly hate what they did and even maybe hate them and they cant get my love back and but you dont want to be the childs best friend either but children just need to know that the parent is there for them and to try to use more communication them physical force.
- Karebear April 26, 2009 3:55PM
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I agree. The only people in society who can be hit for any reason other than self-defense are children. This is absurd! After physical punishment has been taken from the prisons and military, it remains legal to hit the smallest and weakest members of society. It would be one thing if Mr. Rosemond (not Dr. since he has no Ph.D) advocated legal physical punishment for all members of society (as is done in singapore) but its quite another thing that he advocates hitting children only. For those who believe in hitting children, please see the publication at http://nospank.net/pt2009.htm for the opposing viewpoints. Thanks
- PDeverit August 30, 2008 1:37AM
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I doubt the "physical punishment" taken out of the military and prisons consists of telling inmates to "bend over" or "touch your toes" and then getting a minor swat on the tush. I'm pretty sure it consists of far worse.
- Livvy April 26, 2009 9:32PM
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With all due respect, take another look at that data! In almost half the schools of the U.S., corporal punishment is still legal , and in some instances, routine. Take a look at http://nospank.net/a7-05.pdf . One mother of a student who was corporeally punished at a Texas school reported "you could see blood through his underwear".
You may also want to consider these questions:
Ask ten spankers the right way to do it, and you'll get ten different, conflicting descriptions. The more closely you listen to them, the more confused the picture becomes. Following are just a few of the sticking points:
* What is the earliest age at which a child (infant) may be spanked?
* What is the oldest age at which a spanking may be appropriate?
* Should a spanking be applied to the bare bottom or clothed (diapered) bottom?
* Should spanking be done only in private, or immediately upon commission of the punishable offense?
* Should the spanker use the hand so as to get "instant feedback," or never use the hand, but rather a "neutral" object, e.g., a pastry spatula, hair brush, belt?
* Should spanking leave marks? If so, how long should the marks last, and should the marks on a fair-skinned child be assessed differently than the marks on a dark-skinned child?
* Should a spanking be prolonged until the child cries?
* Should a child be spanked for crying?
* Should girls be spanked differently than boys?
* Should boyfriends of single moms be authorized to spank cranky infants?
* Should stepdads have free rein to spank disobedient teenage stepdaughters?
It seems that the only common ground among spankers is each one's solemn belief that what he or she does is the One and Only True Method. They present themselves as irrefutable living proof of its benefits, and defend their right to bestow those same benefits on children under their control.
I, for one, would like to see some order imposed on this chaos. I recommend a temporary moratorium on all spanking pending the outcome of multilateral negotiations between spankers. The assembled spankers would commit themselves to engage in peaceful debate until they arrive at a consensus. The result would then be published in all major languages and distributed worldwide. It could be titled, "The Unified Theory of Spanking."
But there is a risk that my plan will not work as smoothly as I've described. The debate could degenerated into irreconcilable squabbling between the parties. They could stay deadlocked for eternity, thus rendering the whole issue moot and ushering in a brighter, healthier, happier era for generations to follow. Can you just imagine that?
- PDeverit April 27, 2009 2:24AM
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Well... psychologists will say that the absolute earliest that you can spank your child is 18 months - 2 years old. Before 2 years, the kid might not be able to handle it, and before 18 months they probably won't even know what they did wrong.
I agree that parents have different views on spanking ...but that's because they're all dealing with a different types of children . The whole "positive reinforcement" by the experts is a nice idea - but it doesn't work with all kids. Some kids absolutely need punishment to establish boundaries - and there's a difference between physical punishment and physical abuse, just as there's a difference between scolding your child and verbally abusing them. I don't think teachers should be given too much freedom when it comes to corporeal punishment on another person's child.
That being said, parents need to take control of their children. I can think of nothing more damaging to a child then letting them run wild all the time (in fact, that is negligence and counts as a form of abuse) and some children (I've known a few) only respond to physical punishment.
Drawing blood or bruising is obviously an extreme form of punishment, but just as extreme is saying that parents should never ever spank their kids, period.
You're right to say that people should be careful when it comes to this. People who spank their children should only do so if it's necessary. If it is necessary, then they should make sure that the kid knows what they're being spanked for, make sure they (the parent) is not angry, and also make sure that they never hit hard enough to leave a bruise (or draw blood, as you mentioned).
- Livvy April 27, 2009 12:35PM
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1) You didn't specify which "psychologists" you were referring to (most of the fundamentalist "Bible-based" professionals who agree with hitting kids will give vastly different answers on the right way to do it, ex: James Dobson and Kevin Leman)
2) Professionals also have different views on how to administer corporal punishment to their wives correctly (see www.christiandomesticdiscipline.com ) because, as you said, there are different types of wives. Perhaps you should impart of your wisdom to that forum.
3) There are a lot more ways to punish than the caveman method of hitting. When you get pulled over for speeding, does the police officer tell you to "touch your toes" or bend over? I think not, or he would be charged with sexual assault! Why would it be ethical to subject an impressionable child to the same treatment?
4) That being said, maybe it would be a good idea to check out some books on appropriate discipline , and if you don't like to/ don't have time to read check out ABC's Suppernanny, or Dr. Phil or something.
- PDeverit April 27, 2009 5:45PM
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1) Biological psychologists in general say that you shouldn't spank a child before 18 months (Boyd & Bee, Lifespan Development, 2008).
2)Really? You're comparing grown women to children ? Buddy, if you can't tell the difference, then i highly suggest celibacy (for like, the rest of your life). I think most people with common sense realize that when you get married to a grown-up there's not much " discipline " necessary. You don't raise a spouse.
3) Your opinion is extreme. You are taking an "all or nothing" approach. You're right, you CAN punish differently than spanking , but you refuse to acknowledge that one can also spank kids responsibly. If you feel that there is never, ever, a reason to spank a child (or that you're incapable of doing so responsibly) fine.
- Livvy April 27, 2009 7:42PM
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I was just pointing you to the facts. Most people I've talked to don't like hitting kids, and would do something differently if they knew how. When I point out how many other parents there are with challenging situations at home who know how to discipline without hitting, it is simply a call to question how well hitting kids really works. I think that is why popular TV shows such as "Supernanny", etc, are such a success. There is not one institution that teaches how to hit kids "responsibly".
- PDeverit April 27, 2009 8:17PM
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Shere Hite, sex researcher,
sociopsychologist
American Acadamy of Pediatrics
Alvin Poussaint, M.D., Professor
of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical
School
Murray Straus, Co-Director of the
Family Research Laboratory at the
University of New Hampshire
Ashley Montagu, Anthropologist
Daniel F. Whiteside, Assistant
Surgeon General, Department of
Health & Human Services,
Administration of President
Ronald Reagan, 1990
B. F. Skinner, Ph.D., author,
Professor of Psychology, Harvard
Dr. Haim G. Ginott, child
psychologist
Dr. Madeleine Y. Gómez is President of
PsycHealth, Ltd.
- PDeverit April 27, 2009 9:17PM
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There are things that are instant spankings in my book. If my 5 year old child runs out into the street. That's an instant spanking. If I walk in the room and my 13 year old is playing with a lighter, that's a spanking. Some things need to be arrested as soon as they happen. A talking to has no real impact in these situations. The message needs to be clear that this is simply unacceptable. That said, parents who spank at every infraction run the risk of the spanking losing it's impact and becomes meaningless. I've seen this with kids. It's not pretty. These kids become 'immune' to it, and it makes no difference anymore. These kids tend to be more anti-social.
- brianhonaker September 23, 2008 3:59AM
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Your last point, that children who are spanked are more likely to be abused by their parents later, is invalid. Unlike the other points, being abused is not something that the child can control. It is not an effect of spanking on the emotional state of the child. Rather, abuse is a tendency of the parents. If parents have abusive tendencies AFTER spanking their child, they probably had those tendencies BEFORE spanking their child. Also, if the parents in this study were abusive, obviously the results of this study do not reflect the effects of positive corrective discipline; they merely show that abused children will have problems later on.
- nclark January 25, 2009 8:52PM
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Has anyone who argues for hitting kids garnered more information or scrutinized the subject more meticulously, or even had more experience than just a few of the following?
American Acadamy of Pediatrics
Center for Effective Discipline
UNESCO
NASW - National Association of
Social Workers
National Organization for Women
Albert Einstein,From the essay
"On Education" in Out of My Later
Years, Philosophical Library,
Inc., 1950, New York. (pp. 33-35)
william sears, M.D.
Alvin Poussaint, M.D., Professor
of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical
School
Shere Hite, sex researcher,
sociopsychologist
The United Nations (Convention on
the Rights of the Child)
Murray Straus, Co-Director of the
Family Research Laboratory at the
University of New Hampshire
MedHeadlines
Spanking Kids Causes Sexual
Problems, February 29, 2008
Ashley Montagu, Anthropologist
Daniel F. Whiteside, Assistant
Surgeon General, Department of
Health & Human Services,
Administration of President
Ronald Reagan, 1990
People are Not for Hitting and
Children are People Too By Dr.
John Valusek, From "Empathic
Parenting," Volume 22,
Issue 1, Winter 1999
B. F. Skinner, Ph.D., author,
Professor of Psychology, Harvard
Dr. Haim G. Ginott, child
psychologist
Dr. Madeleine Y. Gómez is President of
PsycHealth, Ltd.
Herbert A. Falk, Ph.D., Excerpted
from Corporal Punishment: A Social
Interpretation of its Theory and
Practice in the Schools of the
United States, Bureau of
Publications, Teachers College,
Columbia University, 1941. pp.
144-47
Norma and Seymour Feshbach, from
The Young Child: Reviews of
Research, Edited by Willard W.
Hartup, Institute of Child
Development, University of
Minnesota. Published by the
National Association for the
Education of Young Children,
Washington, D.C. (1972).
Volume 2, pp. 290-292.
Desmond M. Tutu, Archbishop Emeritus, Global Initiative to End All Corporal Punishment of Children, 2006.
Some Antecedents of Felonious and
Delinquent Behavior, Alan DeWitt
Button, Ph.D. A version of this
paper was presented at the annual
convention, American Psychological
Association, Honolulu, Hawaii,
September 8, 1972.
Teresa Whitehurst, PhD
Elliott Barker, M.D.,The Social
Causes of Crime - Overview
By Melanie Barwick, PhD., C.Psych. CBC News, June 20, 2008
National Society for the Prevention of
Cruelty to Children
Scottish Human Rights Centre
Adah Maurer, Ph. D.
Elizabeth T. Gershoff, PhD /
Phoenix Children’s Hospital
Boris Sidis, Journal of Abnormal
Psychology, 1919,
(vol. 14, pp. 333-348)
Jaap E. Doek, Chairperson, United
Nations Committee on the Rights of
the Child, 2006
Dr. Thomas Gordon
Advocates for Children in Therapy
Professor Susan H. Bitensky
Joan E. Durrant, Ph.D.
Study commissioned by
Germantown-based Brio Corp.,
Advisory Group Chairman: J. Ronald
Lally, Director of the WestEd
Center for Child and Family
Studies in San Francisco. Source:
Milwaukee Journal Sentinel,
October 14, 2000
- PDeverit April 28, 2009 6:58PM
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My husband and I were both spanked as children and we are completely healthy well rounded people who to this day love and respect our parents! I always remember loving my parents even when I was younger. I was at times a brat and needed to be spanked. I do not resent my parents for it.
I have NEVER been aggressive towards a soul and neither has my husband. We are not emotionally messed up in anyway. We both have a loving relationship and both Love each other and our son very much. I'm not saying there aren't other ways of handling things. There are tons of alternitives to spanking and they should be used depending on the child and the behavior.
I am just incredibly sick and tired of people saying that everyone who is spanked is emotionally messed up and violent etc. It is just not true. I could list at least 10 adults I know who turned out great.
- Jordyn August 22, 2008 11:48PM
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I don't see the prepoderance of evidence here. Where is it? Did I miss the links? Can someone show me where the links are to the "evidence"?
- justsomeguywithanopinion November 6, 2008 7:57AM
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If spanking is so evil, and children need society's protection, how come the lawless behavior of children has continued to increase with the increasing involvement of the state in family dynamics? Obviously if the No Spanking dictum was actually the best way to go, then with the increasing inability of parents to strike their children for anything (without getting arrested for a crime) the behavior of children should become more orderly and less violent. Am I missing something here?
- Llantha July 27, 2008 9:36AM
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@llantha
"Am I missing something here? "
Yes, you're oversimplifying. Other societies, with much less spanking than ours, have less violence in their societies. If what you say is true, they wouldn't.
- reckoner July 28, 2008 11:27PM
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Llantha is right, CED fails to address what the possible consequences are in their "positive discipline" solution. Wouldn't spanking be one of them, and if so doesn't this solution for parenting go before the spanking and really not replace it?
- JRhornet042 October 26, 2008 3:40PM
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There are better alternatives to every kind of punishment. They frequently require going back in time, or replacing the child with an older child, or using some kind of physical restraint that is just as likely to be harmful. No one is suggesting that spanking should be the centerpiece of child rearing - the punishment of choice. You are making the difficult argument - NEVER.
- Adam Hammond November 12, 2008 3:06PM
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What happens when those alternatives to spanking don't work? Sometimes, as a last resort, spanking is the only effective means of teaching children how to behave. A child who isn't spanked often obviously won't enjoy a swat to the rear and will most likely learn from their mistakes so as to avoid the unwanted spanking. Of course there are better ways to handle a situation when a child is misbehaving but sometimes the situation demands a slightly harsher punishment. It really depends on knowing your child and knowing what methods are effective and reasonable.
- krispy January 23, 2009 10:56PM
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Spanking IS a consequence. When i was younger and i was bad my mom would say "You don't want me to get to three!" Then she would start counting. . . ."one. . . twwwooooo. . . " and i would stop every time before she got to three. In fact she still does it today. Why does it would i don't know - but plain and simple: it does.
- Edgin7 January 25, 2009 9:54PM
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I think spanking is ok in moderation. If possible, I think parents should try other methods of punishing their children first, and if that doesn't work then they can spank them.
- Kelsey R February 11, 2009 2:04PM
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Exactly! Let children know what yu expect from them. Let them learn patience and control and kindness instead of letting them learn how to hit and scream and lose control.
- Norm44 February 20, 2009 11:36AM
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A plethora of methodological issues are present in Baumrind's latest study which render her conclusions meaningless. See www.nospank.net/straus10.htm
- LaVonne August 8, 2008 6:41AM
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I do not spank my children, and they are not on medication. Sometimes talking doesn't work, but why I should resort to violence instead? My primary form of discipline is helping my child make restitution and solve the problem - if he breaks something, he helps me clean it up. If he is fighting with someone, we work together to figure out why and how sharing and talking is a better way to resove an issue.
How does spanking teach my child conflict resolution?? How does it teach him the natural consequences of his decisions?
Discipline is not "spanking or not discipline at all." What an illogical and dishonest conclusion.
- crunchymom September 19, 2008 3:52PM
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When we spank children we are teaching them to hit when they really want to get their way, and when they're really angry. Instead, we should be showing them how adults who are really angry can use their words and control their anger.
- Lisa August 1, 2008 5:59AM
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we are encouraging our children that when others do something they do not like, it is okay to assault them. This is completely unacceptable!
- JessicaSideways October 7, 2009 3:19PM
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John Rosemond has no PhD. He only has a master's degree in psychology, from Western Illinois U. It's misleading, at best, for him to call himself a psychologist. And he's certainly no "expert" in psychology. Professors and other PhD recipients in psychology almost unanimously agree that hitting children is harmful and gentler forms of discipline are preferred. Rosemond is an anomaly in the psychology field.
1) Rosemond defies authority (the American Psychological Association, those with more education such an the Directors of CED, and those with actual experience in research).
2 ) Rosemond lies to the public about what the research on hitting children says (and makes money from it).
3) Rosemond calls names and insults people.
By Rosemond's own advice, if he were younger he would deserve to be spanked for the above 3 offenses. We have a shining example here of why spanking doesn't work, since Rosemond was undoubtedly spanked by his single mom and/or stepfather.
- Susan Lawrence August 7, 2008 3:16PM
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The Dalai Lama wrote, "We cannot feel desire and hatred at exactly the same time toward the very same object. We can certainly have these feelings at different times, but not in the very same moment, which shows that these two attitudes function in contradiction to each other. When one of them increases in strength, the other decreases." Spanking seems that way to me: to spank a child, we must hate and reject his or her body; to hit and intentially hurt it. However, there are positive, effective ways to raise a child in love and peace... with no contradictions.
- Randy Cox August 13, 2008 2:42PM
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Parents don't discipline-by-spanking children because they hate them.
"However, there are positive, effective ways to raise a child in love and peace... with no contradictions."
As I mentioned in another post, this is the difference in the attitude of "parenting" parents and "child rearing" parents.
If you have to discipline your child, then there will always be a contradiction of interest.
i.e.
Is stealing wrong? Yes. Should we hate it? Yes. If my child steals, should I hate him/her? No. I hate what he/she did, but I don't hate him/her.
So discipline comes along to make sure he/she doesn't steal again....to teach him/her to hate stealing as well. People HATE thieves. So the parent's job is to make sure he/she's not a thief. To make sure she's not hated.
- reb412 August 30, 2008 10:57AM
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reb42 writes: Is stealing wrong? Yes. Should we hate it? Yes. If my child steals, should I hate him/her? No. I hate what he/she did, but I don't hate him/her."
My guess is that reb42 is talking about spanking when he/she says "discipline". Lots of folks say "discipline" when they don't mean "teach". They mean "punish". Disciples are those who are taught or who follow a teacher. If I wanted to teach a child to hate stealing, I wouldn't think that hitting the child would teach anything but to be afraid of getting caught stealing. Hitting the child doesn't show a child how to be honest, how to have compassion for the victims of theft, how to value ownership or anything worthwhile. The child will merely regret getting caught. Stealing followed by a stinging butt from a parent just means that the stinging butt can be avoided by stealing outside the parent's awareness. Hitting the child's body just means that the parent wants the child's body to hurt. Why? Because the parent found out about the stealing and is angry about how it feels realizing that the child is a thief and, as reb42 says, must be hated. But this is primitive thinking. The theft is plotted in the brain, not the butt. If we want a child to not plot to steal, we must reach the brain. The butt is a really far place to start. Communicating in that way in that area really is irrational, if you can think about it for very long. The butt is just a place that is usually padded well enough so that, in the majority of cases in lucky children, no permanent disfigurement can be caused. It is a safer place to show that you hate the body than, say, the head. While closer to the brain, this is as impractical a way to try to communicate with the brain than than reb42's favored place. Really, children are very smart at the earliest ages. The brain of a toddler can be engaged quite directly without touching him or her anywhere. The best place from which to prevent theft is internally. External methods of control are inferior, very temporary and unreliable when more than an arm's length away. Internal controls are never developed by the use of external control. No child ever learned not to steal by being hit. Learning not to steal is an internal experience and occurs by the brain incorporating the values of the parent, as commuicated by demonstration, modeling, and speech. Spanking is a contradiction of love. We don't mistreat what we value. Spanking is merely the venting of anger and it is easily interpretted as just that by the youngest.
- Randy Cox August 30, 2008 12:12PM
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Spanking is teaching, in it's most primitive form.
And as for the word "punishment". A teacher has the responsibility to ensure the student learns and with that responsibility comes forms of punishment. Schools have forms of punishment to ensure students learn. So, yes, I do think that punishment is discipline.
"If I wanted to teach a child to hate stealing, I wouldn't think that hitting the child would teach anything but to be afraid of getting caught stealing."
==
"If I wanted to teach a speeder to stop driving over the speed limit, I wouldn't think that giving him a ticket would teach him anything but to be afraid of getting caught speeding again."
Exactly! That's the whole point. Rules and laws exist in this world because humans are imperfect and will naturally want to bend the rules. I hate following the speed limit around my house because it's only 25 MPH......and so does everyone else.....but why do we obey it? Because there is a police man down the street. Not because we like to drive 25. Not because we are all cotton-candy fluffy inside....but because we are scared of getting a ticket.
"No child ever learned not to steal by being hit."
This child did (though I wasn't hit, I was spanked). :-)
"Spanking is merely the venting of anger and it is easily interpreted as just that by the youngest."
If spanking is done in anger, than it isn't spanking, it's hitting and it's wrong. Spanking is discipline (teaching) and enforcement of rules (which is reinforcement of something already taught).
Rcox, what you mentioned above is the philosophy and ideas of Ben Spock. I've heard it a million times, read it in books, etc. and despite the fact that Dr. Spock retracted a lot of what he taught....it's still be taught around the country.
I really do understand what you are saying, but the problem is, it just isn't true in real life. I've seen soo many children dying for some kind of security which they don't have because no one has ever told them "no". I know this conversation is about spanking but it really is deeper than that because it is about punishment / discipline on a broad scope.
I visit the jails frequently with a local Chaplin here and there's two things the prisoners have in common: They all know their DC number and they all know the judge's name that put them there. Many write their judge every week and many have a warm affinity toward them. You know why? because for some, it's the first person in their life that told them "no", "that's enough", "stop". And so much of that is because their baby boomer parents were told by Spock and others not to discipline their children, not to tell them "no"....(it's a dirty word), etc. And there are children CRYING out for some sort of security net and they don't have it because of these philosophies.
Like I said, this boils down to an issue of rearing children. The opposition of corporal punishment is just the fruit stemming from the underlying issue.
- reb412 August 30, 2008 1:07PM
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You're probably right, reb42. Spanking is primitive. I think there was a time when you might say to your child, "come near my mammoth meat one more time, child, and I'll club-beat you back into your mother's womb". It was indeed a primitive and brutal time when children were expendable and so were their mothers. That is not how we should or need to live today. We bond emotionally with our children now and hitting them violates trust and impares bonding.
We've prohibited a spouse from using physical aggression on a spouse and prohibiting parental physical aggression is not that far off. It's the natural process of moral evolution. When it is unthought of to hit a child, there will be less child abuse (what experts refer to as "spanking gone awry"). Hitting and hurting is not a legitimate way to relate with *anyone* we love.
And, by the way, not all hitting is spanking but all spanking is most certainly hitting. A spanking that involves no hitting is not a spanking.
You know? A dictionary can be borrowed at a library and most book stores wouln't mind your looking up a word or two. I hope you'll visit one of these excellent sources of objective information before you write again. I don't have time for any more anecdotes or folk lore.
- Randy Cox August 30, 2008 2:12PM
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That was a rather evolved, civil response. :p
The brutal time when children and mothers were expendable? How can you say that ridding the world of corporal punishment will better child abuse when hitting your spouse is illegal and there's more of it than ever! There's more child abuse, spouse abuse, divorce, mental abuse, etc. than ever in America's history. A lot of it has to do with ridiculous child psych mumbo jumbo out there too. We're aren't getting better, we're getting worse.....devolving socially not evolving (it's the law of entropy).
BTW, here's the definition of Spanking (v) / spank (n)
(and I think you know what I mean between the difference of "hitting" a child and "spanking" one)
© 2008 Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.
American Heritage Dictionary
v. tr.
To slap on the buttocks with a flat object or with the open hand, as for punishment.
n. A slap on the buttocks.
- reb412 August 30, 2008 8:28PM
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Many people fail to understand that when you need to punish your child, it's actually a part of the training process for the child, it's part of trying to instill discipline in the child. It's really a part of the disciplining process. See I agree with all you've said.
- daughterofgoodluck August 31, 2008 8:38AM
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You sure are making a lot of sense here. I've read all your posts on this topic and they are just the best, revealing and most sensible. Thanks for increasing our knowledge.
- daughterofgoodluck August 31, 2008 8:33AM
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You only assault those that you love. I would hate to see what you do to those you do not love.
- JessicaSideways October 7, 2009 3:20PM
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There is not a doubt that the views of many Americans have changed over the years. For the older people in this group, say over 35 years of age. When you got in trouble you were punished by spanking . I am a young adult in the world today and even when I was younger I was spanked for the wrongs I committed and oh did I learn from them! I listened to my father tell me his punishments when he was a child, he did something wrong and he was hit on his butt with a broom. Now a days people with think that as abuse, but back then it wasn't; It was the punishment the parents chose because they didn't want to hit him with their hands. Kids these days are brats! Even at the youngest of ages if they are spanked they thinks its abuse because they don't think they did anything wrong in the first place to deserve the punishment, which is wrong. I personally think spanking your child is the right thing to do. Can you honestly say to me if your 4year old does something wrong you're going to sit him/her down like an adult and tell them what they did was wrong and their going to understand you? No they will disregard what you told them and do it again! They need to be taught a lesson young, that if you do something wrong you will get punished for it. It doesn't always have to be spanking though. Although I do think it can be the most effective. And contrary to much belief it is not an act of hate and it will not make the child wanna kill you when they are older. Also explain why they were spanked, don't just spank them and walk away, say their wrongs and punish them so they no never to do it again.
- brebee014 December 13, 2008 1:17PM
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There's a fine line between swatting a child's backside as a form of discipline and beating the crap out of that child. Spanking is a reasonable method to teach your child right and wrong. When I was little I was spanked whenever I did something wrong and realized not to do it again. I don't believe I am in any way devastated for receiving spankings in my childhood. Spanking has been a method of discipline for a very long time and is not violence unless taken too far.
- krispy January 23, 2009 11:06PM
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There is definitely a place to draw the line between discipline and abuse, and when spanking becomes hitting and is actually causing the child physical pain or injurt, that is unacceptable. But many parents who use spanking as a method of discipline do NOT spank hard enough to cause pain, but rather to cause shock. A spank is startling to a child and is often effective as a last resort. Children cry the same way they do when spanked when a toy is taken away, does this mean they are hurt? Of course not... they're simply angry or upset. There is nothing wrong with a light smack on the behind as a way of being straightforward and putting your foot down.
- SSNickel February 9, 2009 9:01PM
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Rosemond's comment that Sweden had more child abuse after passing a ban on hitting children is FALSE. He (and Larzelere) should stop saying that. When a country re-defines child abuse to *include spanking* then of course, for a while at least, there is *more* abuse because you're now including all hitting as abuse.
Sweden has very little child hitting at this point, and extremely low levels of child injury and death from hitting. The US, on the other hand, where hitting children is legal in all 50 states, there is a very high level of child abuse, and injury and death from hitting.
- SojournerTruth August 1, 2008 10:55AM
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Yeah when you redefine a word for law, it does change how you view stats. For instance, in Sweden, it isn't a criminal act (or even a punishable act) to spank your child (not technically considered domestic violence). It's something that the Swedes demand counseling for, etc. So "abuse" is not as severe as how we think of it in America. I think of "abuse" as something that should be SEVERELY punished to ensure it doesn't happen again. Semantics can wreak havoc.
- reb412 August 30, 2008 8:39PM
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UNICEF reports that after nearly 30 years since spanking was outlawed in Sweden (1979), more than 90% of the population desires continuing the ban on corporal punishment. This obviously includes the generation raised within it.
You can argue and tweak statistics on reported child abuse, but if the ban was ineffective or having a negative impact on society, the citizens living with the law would not overwhelmingly approve of it.
- matwang August 7, 2008 8:42AM
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Good article on this.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/233338/the_effects_of_the_no_spanking_law.html?page=3&cat=37
- reb412 August 30, 2008 8:41PM
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Sometimes kids really need a good spanking . I was spanked as I kid and niether my dad or I hold and grudges or regrets about it. When a child misbehaves in a serious manner, they need to be reminded that that behavior is unacceptable. I sometimes see kids today in places like church acting the same way I acted at that age. The only difference is that they get asked nicely to be quiet. I got the palm of my dad's hand across my rear end!!! Love your kids, but don't spoil them.
- HUNTER March 3, 2009 5:13PM
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In the first line of an obvious DISCLAIMER it states, --a thorough understanding of whether and how corporal punishment affects children has not been reached. This little tidbit of info would infer that the naysayers are busy paddling without a boat beneath them.
As a parent of two grown children, I profess that spanking is NOT a panacea. But just like cough syrup, when used properly it can SAVE the life of a child. Spanking works early on when a parent is striving to communicate with a child that is bereft of ANY conception of codes of conduct OR most importantly--DANGER! My children were made to hearken to voice command and NEVER ignore the parent. To do so could bring about a sudden pain in the backside.
I believe that it is infinitely preferable to raise a child a little fearful than having the little free-spirited brat squished by a pickup truck in the parking lot of Whole Foods because he/she were used to being negotiated with.
Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
- BLZeebub August 19, 2008 6:56PM
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Both my children are adults now. When they were young they knew better than do something I had instructed them not to do. As the father it was my job to correct both my kids when they did wrong and I kept my belt handy. Both my kids knew if they stepped out of line what would happen. My kids are grown now and are professional in their employment, I could not ask for two better adults and we sit around laughing about the times I whipped their butts when they did wrong.
If all you super brains that profess to know child rearing better than the parents would shut your mouths, get married, have a couple of kids and try raising them using your warped understanding of raising a child, then you would know how important it is to smack them on the butt every now and then to get their undivided attention. By the way, if spanking is so wrong, then tell me why the prison system is filling up so fast with young people? Bet if dad and mom would have whacked them on their backsides a few times when they were younger, they would not be in prison.
- shadow November 23, 2008 4:10AM
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First, it's been proven that spanking for the most part just doesn't solve the problem. Spanking, like religion, only teaches children to fear punishment instead of teaching them why what they've done is wrong.
I was personally raised never having been spanked or punished more than being denied certain things for a day. Am I in prison? No! In fact, the worst trouble I've ever gotten into is detention for forgetting homework. The reason is that I understand why certain things are wrong and have empathy, instead of fear of retribution. You tell me which is the better and more responsible method? Or is being lazy and just abusing your child to shut them up better?
The reason our prisons are filling up probably has a little something to do with the massive rate at which our population is growing, greater poverty (a large source of crime), etc. We could always attribute it to spanking, but frankly, you've no evidence to back this up. I would think that teaching children WHY something is wrong would keep them out of jail better than to fear punishment. But that's just the logical conclusion.
Lazy parenting is not the best parenting.
- Blue Linchpin December 31, 2008 1:27PM
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Other than one quite traumatic experience as a child, I was spared from spanking, and am very grateful that there are groups that oppose this sort of abuse.
- hibernate August 26, 2008 8:47AM
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I agree. If you show a child that the only way you can "control" them is by spanking then you've lost...however, if you have two children and one is clearly being aggressive physically with them or you, in my experience it's not "talking time". I have twins, one was pushing the other towrd the staris, I physically intervened.
If a child will not go to their room and continues to grab at you to get what they want, what is an alternative to pushing them away or toward their room? If your other child is in danger, then what?
- Don September 9, 2008 10:57AM
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If the parents said “I was spanked and I have never recovered," then why are they in a parenting class. If they never "recovered" then shouldn't they know how to discipline their children effectively and how not to, instead of going to a class to learn how to parent a child?
- Edgin7 February 12, 2009 2:48PM
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Children are NOT small adults! They are C-H-I-L-D-R-E-N. They cannot be reasoned with until they develop reasoning. Spanking during the formative stages does nothing more than get their A-T-T-E-N-T-I-O-N so that they become amenable to reasoning. Spanking is but a deterrent against future folly.
We howl over government intrusion into the bedroom but invite oversight for child rearing? You can't take away people's right to be wrong. In a genuinely free society, there will always be a segment that will be evil, malicious, ignorant, religious, disenfranchised, special, ad infinitum. To disallow any one of them is to attempt to perfect mankind. A noble gesture that has historically promoted institutional abuse and even genocide. [Spanish Inquisition, Stalin’s purges, European Jews, etc]
Spanking is different from genocide, but where in a free society do we draw the boundaries between private responsibility and Big Brother intrusion?
- BLZeebub August 26, 2008 8:23AM
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There are some adults who cannot be reasoned with because they are not reasonable people. There are some old people whose minds have gone and they act childish. We are certainly not allowed to spank them to get their attention because to do so means assault under the law. Because of this we must seek out and employ non violent methods to deal with these people. The same should be true with children. As long as the law allows spanking, there will be no incentive for certain lazy parents to seek out and employ less violent methods. The only way for this to happen is to take away the legal excuse for spanking. If you want to get the people to use Dollar coins you have to stop printing Dollar bills.
- edwin p August 26, 2008 9:36AM
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except the government is allowed to print what it likes.....
- reb412 August 30, 2008 10:33AM
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Not being disrespectful, but your argument and logic does not make sense to me. Children are DEVELOPING. People who suffer from organic brain disorders are NOT developing--they have been adults--they are not moving toward adulthood. Also, it has been my experience (working with CPS, facilitating family therapy, currently working as a prison psychologist) that "lazy parents" don't spank--they abuse. By definition, lazy equates to selfish. These parents have themselves only in mind, that children tend to get in the way of their schedule/agenda, and view children as an inconvenience, not a blessing. Setting parameters, through the most extreme case, 'spanking' a child is the most loving thing a parent can do. Sounds barbaric? Yes, I know. But having three children of my own, I can testify to the positive effect this can have (at appropriate times, manner, degree, and intent). I liken all forms of discipline to fencing--around a pasture that dictates to livestock the parameters of their movement. It's not that it limits or restricts, but that it liberates and communicates all the locations that are permittable for travel. So the same is true for parenting--children are comforted and are at peace in knowing what is acceptable behavior, speech, and the like. Sorry for the cow metaphor--I'm a Texan, it seems to come natural. Ha-ha.
- Jefe October 29, 2008 9:21PM
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I can see your point on what you said on there is a time and a place and all of that but speaking from experiance the parent just has to know there limit and if they go to far with it then the child has every right to lose respect for their parents/parent. But if kids are raised appropreatly then they usually will know right from wrong and then this isnt even an issue.
- Karebear April 26, 2009 1:41PM
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Parents are MORE violent now. Where are you getting your stats? The post here is completely wrong in every way. There are more instances of abuse, more instances of child killing, etc. A third of all abused children will abuse their own in the future. So despite what the psychs say, stats don't lie.
http://www.childhelp.org/resources/learning-center/statistics
http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/statistics/can.cfm
I agree that HITTING a child is child abuse. But for the rest of your statement, you should go in to the homes I've gone into and seen what happens when there is no punishment for anyone's actions.
On a side note, The word and philiosophy of "Parenting" is the wrong way to raise a child. "Child Rearing" is child centered, making sure the child grows up needing everything he/she needs (or doesn't need). "Parenting" always has the connotation of making sure the parent feels good about what they are doing (ignoring what the child needs completely). I'm too young to be a baby boomer, but that's typical baby boomer psych hogwash (thanks to Dr. Spock no less).
- reb412 August 30, 2008 10:31AM
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Of course criminal violence would be up AFTER violence is defined as a CRIME. Not before (when slavery, beating a child to death, beating or "chastising" your wife was LEGAL. Its OK.
- PDeverit May 2, 2009 3:10AM
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Discipline is very important, and that sometimes includes punishment (not hitting). Spanking is a euphemism for hitting. It is hitting a child's buttocks for the purpose of causing pain. It is unethical to categorize beating an adult on the buttocks as sexual assault, and exempt an impressionable and susceptible child from the same protection.
- PDeverit May 2, 2009 3:29AM
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i have aan almost 3 yr old...i have tried everything to get him to behave and spanking just isn't the way to go. You end up spanking for the same reasons time after time. Spanking to me is an action of self fullfillment. It makes the parent feel horrible afterwards while your child cries and when you do spank it just seems as though you as the parent only feel better for a split second. It makes you feel like you have control when you don't.
- tiff3240 February 14, 2009 8:20PM
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I do not agree with spanking for many reasons. When i was a child not only did I get spanked i was abused mentally, physicaly, and sexualy. Although hard to talk about it did happen. The only thing that hitting or spanking does for a child is make them have zero self asteem, confidence,and makes them lose respect for their parents as a role model or diceplinarian. If you dont think that it will knowing from experiance I definetly lost all respect for them and they cant get that back. although a different situation on my part, That will happen as a result in some way or another. You dont want to be your child's friend but you also want their respect and they want yours and they will definetly respect you more for treating them like an adult and talking to them instead of using physical force.
- Karebear April 25, 2009 1:22PM
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My Dad didn't smack a lot-but made sure if i was naughty i still had a VERY VERY sore bottom!!, he would lay me across his knee and rub my bare bottom hard for about 30 seconds with a piece of sandpaper!!, it felt like my bottom was on fire and i ALWAYS cried afterwards then i'de get a telling off.
- Ark July 6, 2009 12:38PM
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Is Spanking an Acceptable Form of Discipline?
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Spanking is harmful to children
Parents are role models for childrens behavior. When we cuss, children learn to curse, when we hit, slap or spank, children learn to hit. Spanking is a violent act. Spanking with belts, paddles or extension cords is clearly child abuse.
It is far better to be a good role model and to talk firmly to your children about what behavior is expected. Use time-outs, denial of TV, outside activities, etc. to make your point.
See www.nospankingzone.org People Opposed to Paddling Students, Houston
- Jimmy Dunne
July 25, 2008 8:33AM
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thats whats wrong with kids today
a good spanking on the rump is what most kids need. thats why they have no respect for anybody these days.when most of us adults remember when we were young and got out of control we would be turned over on our parents lap and our rump beat into jelly .and we had respect .but over the years people started going to far with it and started being to violent and thats when the line was drawn.but was drawn in a wrong way.now if you look at a kid wrong you will get locked up and thats not right that just gave the kids the run of the roost.and thats whats wrong with them today (giving kids control)i think if a kid gets out of control a parent should turn them over on their lap and give them a old fashion spanking on the rump.and if they go to far with it .send them to prison for a while.not make other parents cut out spankings so their kids can get out of control.
- blah
December 11, 2008 7:38PM
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Spanking does NOT bring respect
Spanking children does not bring respect for the parent, it brings anger, hatred and fear. It shows that the parent is out of control and is resorting to hitting a small defenseless child. People are not for hitting and children are people too. Discipline should be for teaching, not for punishment. Let the child know what you approve and disapprove of and they will want your approval.
Jimmy Dunne, People Opposed to Paddling Students, Houston 281.584.9707 see www.nospankingzone.org
- Jimmy Dunne
December 12, 2008 8:20AM
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I was spanked..and I respect my parents.
I was spanked until I turned 15 years old. If I did something wrong, I knew that I was going to get a spanking for it and most of the time that was the only reason I refrained. All children are different. Some children benefit from spanking, and others don't. My sister was spanked as a child, and it did her no good, because she was always stubborn and wasn't afraid of the pain. So therefore, my parents had other ways of punishing her. But for me, it worked. I did respect my parents for it, because they were always very clear about what they expected from me, and I knew what would happen if I did something wrong. Therefore, I still respected them for it. I may not have liked it when I was younger, but I did not hate my parents for it. Like I said, it may not work for certain children, but time-outs don't work for certain children either. In time-out, most creative children would entertain themselves, even if there was absolutely nothing in the room that was entertaining. The responsibility falls on individual parents. It is NOT abuse, if you do not hurt the child to the point of bruises or scarring.
- bellajames
April 13, 2009 3:00PM
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Spanking isn't meant to bring respect
Not every action a parent takes is meant to engeander respect. I do believe that spanking a child out of anger and frustration is abuse, not discipline .
- Russell Fine
May 23, 2009 11:18AM
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Spanking does NOT bring respect
SEE you got it figured out it is all in how you deliver that spanking that matter's I think I got plenty growing and my son as well.You can't act like a enraged idiot while dealing with kids but you put best I think.
- muffmonster36
September 2, 2009 11:36AM
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Out of love
Yes a parent should not ever spank out of anger or frustration.The problem today is the two parent are out to work and there is no discipline in the homes
My wife stayed at home and I went to work outside of the home.When I got home that was the time the children got there spankings after a talken to.
- countryboy
September 3, 2009 2:23PM
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Spanking does NOT bring respect
I think your dead wrong evryone in my family as far as I can remeber has gotten whippings and we are all good folk's never shot a school up or co- workers and we are hard working and god fearing people.It is the lack of punishment that is the problem with kids now aday's so look's to me like your wrong!!!
- muffmonster36
September 2, 2009 11:31AM
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Model Parents "Beat Child's Rump To Jelly"
Hang on everyone,
-forget people with model children who have never raised a hand to them
-forget those who turn around the behavoir of troubled youth without violence
-forget those who have spent years and years studying family life
-and move over Dr. Phil and Supernanny,
We've got some winning advice right here!
- PDeverit
May 6, 2009 10:06PM
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Define Harmful...
Mr. Dunne,
I am one of seven children the youngest of which is 43 years old. We were all spanked. Examples include (but are not limited to) the following: hands, hot-wheel tracks, piece of oak baseboard, switches and belts.
Your argument indicates there was long term harm done to us but I don't see it. We have the following accomplishments between us, 1 MBA, 4 Bachelor of Science degrees, 6 Associate Degrees, 7 High School diplomas. There are also 22 children in the 6 marriages and 3 of us have been married over 25 years. None of us have been in prison or convicted of a felony. There is no child abuse in any of the families and there are only 2 children of the 22 that have serious issues. Those children were adopted from the County from a mother who used cocaine and alcohol during the pregnancy (Look up Fetal Alcohol Syndrome).
Specifically what harm is done? From my experience spanking works for a time, and properly applied does not harm the child but actually gives them boundaries. Should spanking be used with all children. Absolutely not. Each child is different and some things that work on one do not work on others. Spanking is a last resort punishment that should not be used lightly. Being consistent is what counts. There is also a point where spanking becomes insulting to the child and at that point it loses it's effectiveness. Every child is different and the age where spanking stops is extremely variable.
And don't give me the argument that there are always exceptions. Your statements do not support that.
- TheCatholicHeretic
June 16, 2009 3:50PM
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Yes
It most definitely helped me as a child. Time-outs, denial of TV etc. etc. did nothing to change my ways. But a good spanking (with or without belt) told me exactly how to behave. Now their is a difference between spanking and slapping, just as there is a difference between spanking and beating. A spanking is good and effective while a beating or slapping is obviously child abuse.
- Dylandts
August 13, 2009 8:33PM
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Yes
OOORAH....Leave it to a fellow Marine to say it best....EVERYONE should read this because you said it best......
- muffmonster36
September 2, 2009 11:40AM
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Yes it is
A Spanking set me straght a time or two.Not spanking and letting your child go wild is more like child abuse.
- countryboy
September 3, 2009 2:07PM
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Is Spanking an Acceptable Form of Discipline?
I thinlk your wrong!!!!!I got plenty of whoopin's with belt's my son did and my uncle's 9 of them and my dad did and a handful of cousin's NONE of my family are law breaker's we all work hard do right for the most part and myself and several other's are or were in the Marines(not perfect but good people)AND WE NEVER SHOT A SCHOOL UP OR CO WORKER"S and we credit our WHOOPIN"S for our being good people and nobody in my family has ever been arrested for child abuse!!!!
- muffmonster36
September 2, 2009 11:25AM
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Time Out Does Not Work
Spanking is most definitely an acceptable form of punishment. Children do not have the capability of reasoning. After a child is 9 or 10, depending upon their maturity, then reason with them and do not spank any further. DFS (department of family services) invented and advocated "Time Out" and then reversed their decision stating that you were neglecting your children. The fact of the matter is that we had less violence and disrespect back in the day that kids were afraid of getting a butt whooping. I whole heartedly agree with spanking (on the bottom with your hand). I do not agree with smacking your kids around or striking them with foreign objects.
- Gideon From The Dirty Onion
July 25, 2008 11:50AM
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I agree
I would have to agree with you. Time outs are not the way to go. especially if your children enjoy just sitting down and doing nothing. Spanking them is appropriate as long as it is not abusive.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 4:50AM
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From a former spankee
to a certain degree yes. I mean only in situations where the child repeatedly disobeys. for serious things like playing with fire, bullying, stealing etc. And only what a child can take no closed fist or switches or beating for over 10 minutes.
- rchot July 25, 2008 12:19PM
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if its not abuse
when i was little, let me tell you....if i talked back to my mother, was being rude to her face, snotty, etc...i got the ole backhand. of course when youre a child you get upset and yell at your parents and say things like "its not fair...i hate you etc.." my parents hardly ever spanked us when we were little....but if we deserved it, it was usually the back hand to the mouth or a smack on the ass. that was the extent of it. and it happend rarely. now im 24 yrs old and i nanny for 2 kids. let me tell you, i understand why we got the back hand!!! i do not have bad feeling towards my parents. i think they did one heck of a job raising me and my brother. and i understand fully why they felt sometimes they needed to give us a little smack when we were being brats. and we were little! we used to be brats and ill admit it. i think that if parents ONLY use spanking...or are bruising their child with it, then that could be concidered abuse. ill tell you, TIME OUTS and positive reinforcement...
- lanidee02 July 26, 2008 8:41AM
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continued from last post.....
and postive reinforcement DOES not always work. i have been working with children since i was 16. i see alot of spoiled kids who are rude and expect to have what they want when they want it all the time. sometimes i think i good smack in the mouth would set them straight. but they are not my kids and its not my place. there is a line between disceplin and abuse. when i have my own children it will be my choice how to discipline them. and if it means a slap on the butt then its a slap on the butt. but i am aware of the line....and i would never cross it.
- lanidee02 July 26, 2008 8:47AM
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If you can't tell...
If you can't tell spanking from beating, then you should do neither. Spanking is not abuse and likewise, abuse, by definition, is not spanking.
Spanking serves to make the child more uncomfortable for doing the bad act than the bad act gives him joy. If you can achieve this through other means, then go ahead. If you can't, however, then a whack on the backside may be called for. And in the long run, talking to your child or sending him to his room or a chair and getting the same result is sort of idiotic. And it annoys the child. And the people who think that you can't rear young.
I have been reading Rosemond for years and how he and I can agree so fully on child rearing and so completely disagree on our world view always amazes me. However, I am comfortable in saying that you will never find him justifying any position by citing biblical edicts; he may cite it as his own point of view, but he is far too intellectually honest to rely on the Bible to justify his position.
- Llantha
July 27, 2008 9:25AM
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Spanking = Abuse // A world of Bullies & Wimps
1.) A spanking is relative form of punishment - in terms of scale/intensity/degree.
2.) If my mom spanks me for behaving in a fashion that is not acceptable to her, it might not hurt.
3.) If my dad spanked me for behaving in a fashion that is not acceptable to him, it might be a near death experience.
4.) If my parents - who love me and play a major role in influencing me how to behave towards others - spank me when I behave in fashion unacceptable to them, then it must be okay to spank anyone who misbehaves according to me.
5.) I also want to bring up the point that it is against human nature to not want to defend yourself against someone beating the tar out of you. How do you think that screws with an individual's character? Where does that end?
6.) A world full of bullies and wimps.
- One Cylinder July 27, 2008 10:37AM
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Your Logic Falls Apart
Although your logic began reasonable enough, it begins to deteriorate when you factor in the basis that children do not reason as adults do. When children are young, you are not supposed to instill "take a beating and don't defend yourself." Quite the contrary. I have children and they are taught rules and respect in a certain order.
1) Respect and honor their parents.
2) Defend yourself against harm.
3) Defend your family
4) Speak out against unjust or unfair actions against you.
So, I do not teach my children to just "take a beating" as you put it. They are not to raise a hand against their parnets, but all others are fair game. But, as a parent, you also have to respect your children. We are trying to condition them not torture them. Any parent that actually makes it a routine to "beat" their children should be "beat" themselves.
- Gideon From The Dirty Onion
August 19, 2008 7:45AM
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If children can't reason, how does spanking help?
How does hurting a child to keep them from hurting themselves make sense? If children are too young to reason with, then why would spanking make a difference?
Here is your logic:
1. Your parents are always right, even if one of us is being irrational, unfair or trying to teach you something that doesn't make sense to you.
2. Defend yourself against harm, unless we are the ones harming you, because we are your parents and we get to harm you.
3. Defend your family, whether or not we are right.
4. Speak out, except against us, because that is back talk and you will get spanked for it.
There are many ways to teach our children to make correct choices without hurting them to do it.
- crunchymom September 19, 2008 4:12PM
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Illogical and Irrational Response
First of all, if you do not have children, please do not attempt a response. Unless you have children, there is no way you can understand. You may think you can. But you would be wrong.
I love it when people read my responses and cherry pick pieces of it rather that respond to it in its entirety. Let's respond to your points one at a time in a fashion like you did to me.
Your title - If children can't reason, how does spanking help? I know you will blow this way out of proportion and try to use correlations that I am not making against me. But I will proceed with my statement anyway. Cows can't reason, not on our intelligence level. Why do electric fences work then? Because it doesn't take many brain cells to move away from harm.
How does hurting a child to keep them from hurting themselves make sense? You are attempting to make me out as a monster. I would rather pop mu child's hand when they try to touch an electric socket than to tell them, "no no no" and them get shocked to death. Do I choose swatting their hand over hospitalization or death? Most certainly. What would you do?
Logic:
1) What I said: Respect and honor their parents. What you interpreted: Your parents are always right, even if one of us is being irrational, unfair or trying to teach you something that doesn't make sense to you. Response: Yes. At a young child's age, the parent is always right regardless or rationalization. And at the age of 4 and under, most things do not make sense to the child, so yes the kid should listen to their parent. It is their parent's job to teach their child after all.
2) What I said: Defend yourself against harm. What you interpreted: Defend yourself against harm, unless we are the ones harming you, because we are your parents and we get to harm you. Response: Once again you are attempting to overreach the point. Yes, always defend yourself from harm. From Webster - Harm: physical or mental damage. If you are disciplining your child and not beating the living day lights out of them, no harm (injury) should arise. Did you not read my post in its entirety? I said, "But, as a parent, you also have to respect your children. We are trying to condition them not torture them. Any parent that actually makes it a routine to "beat" their children should be "beat" themselves."
3) What I said: Defend your family. What you interpreted: Defend your family, whether or not we are right. Response: Most definitely. I do not care if my wife is wrong or children are wrong. I will never choose a stranger's side over my own family's side. And if you would, I am sorry for your family as you are more concerned with being right than being loyal to those you love.
4) What I said: Speak out against unjust or unfair actions against you. What you interpreted: Speak out, except against us, because that is back talk and you will get spanked for it. Response: Do not stand for injustice against yourself. As a small child, they can not decipher what is unjust and what is just. As they grow older, they will have respect and know how to discuss things they believe to be unfair without being disrespectful. Talking back in a disrespectful way should not be tolerated when the child is very young as you are teaching them behaviors that will only intensify. Speaking out does not mean you have to be disrespectful when doing so.
No, spanking should not be your first or only form of punishment. If it is, you are not trying to teach your children. You are simply trying to submit your children. There is a huge difference between applying a spanking because it is the last resort to curb a negative or harmful behavior and doing so because you do not know any other recourse.
You said, "There are many ways to teach our children to make correct choices without hurting them to do it." Please elaborate on what your suggestions are to help a child (4 and under) to make correct choices about things like not sticking their fingers in a light socket or picking up scissors (or other sharp object). When responding, please refrain from the answer of putting socket covers on the light sockets as this does not teach the child you are simply avoiding the lesson. And thinking that every child in the world will stay away from sharp objects is not plausible, so please refrain from the suggestion of "keep sharp objects away from them." That is obvious, but children have a way of finding things.
- Gideon From The Dirty Onion
September 19, 2008 5:04PM
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I have two children, a 10 month old and 3 year old
So you can throw out that assumption. And they never get spanked. Not even a smack on the hand.
I am making you out as a monster because I think people who spank their children ARE monsters. You just compared your child to a thoughtless cow. OY!
I don't smack my child to keep them from shocking themselves. I put covers on the plugs. Voila. I put gates up to keep my children from dangerous situations. And my three year old, not being a cow, knows what the word "ouch" and "danger" mean. My baby doesn't, hence the gates and plug covers.
You say that prevention doesn't teach a lesson, but neither does spanking , or you wouldn't have to do it. At least my way doesn't exchange one pain for another. "Don't hurt yourself or I will have to hurt you."
1. My children respect me without me forcing it. They respect me because they love me and trust me, not because I inflict pain.
2. There is no such thing as "respectful" pain.
3. Loyalty over safety and rightness? I am afraid of your family. I don't want my children to become enablers for the sake of family loyalty. What a horrible thing to wish on your children. I want my children to be compassionate people with a sense of fairness. I want them to WANT to be a member of the family because our family is a refuge and source of comfort. If a stranger is right and my children are wrong, then this is something we need to work out together. Loyalty above all is how families hide abuse and alcoholism and marital affairs.
4. As you mentioned, very young children are impulsive and can't reason. Spanking, therefor, wouldn't teach a lesson, either. And you can't talk to them. Until they can reason, distraction, and substitution are ideal solutions, because they will not "learn" anything from any form of punishment.
We DO have consequences in our house. If my son spills something, he has to help me clean it up. Voila - a true lesson. When we make a mess, we clean it up. If he throws something, which he is not supposed to do in the house, and it hits the baby, he has to come comfort the baby with me, and then he can't play with that object for the rest of the day - the object gets a time out. If there is a fight during playgroup, then both children sit down with us and we try to compromise - can the toy be shared? Is there a similar toy so that both children can have something? Can there be a trade, one toy for the one you want? And if he hits someone, which happens very rarely, we go home early - play group is over, and hopefully next time we will remember not to hurt, because we don't hurt things.
Dr William Sears, who is against spanking, has a book called The Discipline Book that is all about age appropriate discipline. If you go to this link - http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/T060100.asp - he lists many ways to approach disciplining young children. And he is not permissive -he believes children can and should be disciplined - but in a way that truly creates self governance within a child.
You and I obviously have very different goals for our children. You value obedience above all, I value peace and free thinking above total obedience. But I firmly believe you can still achieve your goal without having to inflict pain. You can still teach those lessons you value to your children without spanking. My child listens to me 90% of the time, and the other 10% of time is impulsive behavior he hasn't learned to control yet, and I have done this without spanking.
- crunchymom September 19, 2008 8:53PM
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Missing The Point
Let's set one thing straight. I am not comparing my children to cows. Hence the reason I preceded my statement with, "I know you will blow this way out of proportion and try to use correlations that I am not making against me. But I will proceed with my statement anyway."
It is not my children or family you should worry for. It should be your own. You are teaching your children to avoid problems. I do not force respect. But I am a Christian and believe in the teachings in the Bible. I believe children should respect their parents. It is when parents started to reason with 4 year olds that this country started into a tailspin. And, if your child actually listens to you 90% of the time, then you are an exception to the rule. Do you remember "time out?" Something that social services invented to take the place of spanking. Did you ever subject your child to that? Hope not. Social services recently deemed it as child abuse and neglect.
We are simply going to have to agree to disagree. Believe it or not, I understand your point. I know that you are horribly wrong but I understand your point. You however, do not and will not attempt to see mine. So further debate is futile.
I love my children. I promote free thought. And my family comes before anything else on Earth other than my God. And yes, I will most certainly substitute one smack on the hand for a visit to the emergency room.
- Gideon From The Dirty Onion
September 21, 2008 8:15PM
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I do not teach my children to avoid problems
I just understand that a child as young as three isn't capable of reason so prevention is my responsibility. Why would I leave my child open to danger so I could smack his hand and teach him a lesson he's not old enough to learn? Why is prevention bad parenting of a little child?
Also, I am a Christian, too, and in my Church we are taught not to strike our children. In my Church we go by the New Testament, not the Old one. My Church leaders tell us that we should never raise a hand to our children, that we should earn our children's respect by behaving like Christ.
Christ never told us to strike our children. He said there was a higher law than "eye for an eye." He said "And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Matthew 18: 5-6
I do not use time outs. I use time ins. I sit with my child when he does something wrong or needs to calm down. I do not beg my children for obedience, either, or let them get away with things. I want them to love God and Mom and Dad, not fear God and Mom and Dad.
A six year old or seven year old has a better grasp of language and is easier to discipline, to learn right from wrong. But a little child? Don't smack that hand. Cover the outlet. They're innocent. They don't understand. There's no need to hurt a little child. Please stop smacking your little children.
- crunchymom September 22, 2008 4:45AM
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Messed up logic
The messed up Logic is not really messed up.
I will answer this from your own view:
You say you believe in the Bible. One particular new testiment verse comes to mind. "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right." In that verse there is no room for discussion as to whether or not the parent is right. It does not say "Children obey your parents as long as you agree with them and what they are telling you." If you truly believe the Bible, then you have to admit that Parents are put their to guide their children. It no where says that children have the right to back talk their parents, smart mouth them, etc.
I was always taught that in all things my parents were right. I was taught that you were to turn the other cheak. I was taught that you always defend your family, period. I was taught that you never speak out against your family.
- UltraConservative November 12, 2008 3:08PM
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Question
If hitting isn't the best way to discipline (punish, actually), why would anyone choose to hold onto and defend this inherited bad habit over learning constructive discipline habits?
- PDeverit
May 7, 2009 12:28AM
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Your Logic Falls Apart pt2
You need to spank when the child is too young for reasoning. What? Are you going to ask little Jonnie, "Don't stick your finger in the electrical outlet...you might get an oweee!" It is unreasonable to believe that a parent can follow their children around 24 hours a day 7 days a week, every waking second. If you disagree, you don't have kids. So, you pop their hand hard enough to sting only. That pain is the lesser of the two evils: shock or sting. The child understands that pain is associated with touching the electrical socket and does not return. If they do, consistency will prevail after a time or two. You may retort with, just put socket covers. Now you are teaching your children that the entire world is safe because Mommy and Daddy made it so. And when they actually enter the real world, they are unprepared because you sheltered them their entire life.
- Gideon From The Dirty Onion
August 19, 2008 7:57AM
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WHAT'S WRONG WITH USING COMMON SENSE
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. We never used to use seatbelts, car seats or booster seats at one time but we do now. Why? Because it's the smart thing to do and in most places it's the law! Even if it wasn't the law, most people now are so used to it that they would probably do it anyway because they care about safety.Should we put a fence around the cliff or an ambulance down in the valley? I think that the former is the best way to go. I commend all the wise parents who put covers on electrical sockets, keep dangerous things out of reach, put safety gates at the top of the stairs, store firearms unloaded in a locked cabinet and/or put trigger locks on them when not in use and the list goes on. Whatever happened to common sense? YOU DON'T REACH FOR THE HONEY WITHOUT SMOKING THE HIVE,DO YOU?
- edwin p
August 19, 2008 6:27PM
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They don't work
Experience: they covers don't work. My 7 year old was taking them out by the time he was two. By two he also figured out how to open the child proof drawers and cabinets. By two he had figured out how to open the baby gates. So, What do you do then? Put up fenses? Tell them "don't touch"? When all other options have been tried, and the only option you have is swating them to get the point across, I choose the momentary pain on their padded parts then burying my children because they electicuted themselves. Child proofing may work for some kids, but when the child has been tested to be highly inteligent and is carrying on intellectual conversations at 3, even then, reasoning does not always work.
- UltraConservative November 12, 2008 3:19PM
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Wrong Philosophy
This is a wrong philosophy. I was spanked as a child as a means of punishment and I grew up to be neither a bully nor a wimp. Neither did it make me think that it was ok to just whip up of people because they did something I did not like.
There is a difference between swatting a child to get their attention and beating the fire out of them.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 4:55AM
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violence as a solution (?)
Spanking children basically means teaching them that violence is an accaptable form of behaviour. Actually it´s even worse because it is violence against someone who is not remotely as strong as you.
How can someone who spanks children be a good role model?
- winstonsmith July 28, 2008 2:55PM
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Swatting is not violence
Swatting your child as a means of discipline is not violence as long as the reason behind it is discipline and not anger. Swatting done in anger usually ends in excessive corporal punishment known as abuse.
How can a person who refuses to discipline their children be seen as a good role model? Just go to Wal-mart and observe. You can pick out the children whose parents only use "now, Johnny, when we are in the store, behave." and those that tell their children "you mis-behave and when we get home you will get a swat." I was observing this scenario in Wal-mart the other day. I followed a mother around the store with her children. Her children were just walking all over her. She kept saying, "stop it". They acted as if they never heard her. Yet, there was another mom who, right there in Wal-mart, told her child one time, stop. When the child did not, she swatted the child right there. The child stopped and immediately said "I am sorry mommy." She got the point across and the child behaved. Did the swat damage the child? Nope.
- UltraConservative November 12, 2008 3:26PM
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Spanking = Hitting = Abuse
Dr. Straus just completed a study of 14,000 young adults showing that those who were spanked as children are more likely to have sexual problems. A study at McMaster University in Hamilton, ON showed adults who were spanked as children were more anxious & depressed, and abused alcohol & drugs more. A study of violent San Quentin prisoners found all were spanked a lot as children. A Univ. of Michigan study of 1,800 children showed spanked children exhibited worse behavior. A meta-analysis at Columbia Univ. of 88 studies showed spanking let to more aggression & anti-social behavior, more criminality & abusive behaviors, and worse mental health.To see a collection of research easily available online, go to stoptherod dot net / research dot htm Anecdotes and wild claims don't have the weight of solid research.
- SojournerTruth
July 28, 2008 6:04PM
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Look up the definition
Look up the definition of those three words.
Spanking does not mean the same as hitting.
Hitting does not mean the same as abuse.
And Abuse is the result of what happens when spanking and hitting are taken to an extreme.
- UltraConservative November 12, 2008 3:27PM
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Rosemond untruthful
John Rosemond uses the title "Dr." because he has a PhD in psychology, yet he denigrates nearly all psychological research, and he disagrees with the APA's stance on hitting persons under age 18. He should drop the title of "Dr." since he cares so little about what psychology stands for.
It's interesting the picture chosen to portray children shows a girl with her tongue out. To a spanker this would show "defiance" and unacceptable behavior. However, a realistic picture of a 2 year old (the most common age for hitting children), with tears streaming down her face, trying vainly to stop someone much larger than her from hitting her, would be far more representative of the subject being discussed here. I'm sure such a picture would elicit far more "no's" in this vote.
Parents, don't hit your children. Find better ways. Set a good example, child-proof well, pay attention to your child, learn about developmental stages, and communicate respectfully. Your children will benefit.
- SojournerTruth
July 31, 2008 6:13PM
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Spanking is fine it just shouldnt be the only form of disipline
Look The problem is that parents are lazy and stick to one form of punishment.
Your child and most people in the world will get used to anything eventually(this is why P.O.W.'s suffer various forms of torture.)
- harrygodzilla
August 1, 2008 6:11PM
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I agree with that
I agree with that. It should not be the only form of discipline and should only be used when all other means are exhausted. I only use it when reasoning with my children does not work. Those cases are few and far between.
- UltraConservative November 5, 2008 3:11PM
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Informed parents don't hit
Even "mild" hitting of a child can lead to worse behavior and aggression. This effect can last a lifetime, as much research has shown. I've compiled some easy-to-access research online, at stoptherod.net/research.htm if anyone cares to read it. John Rosemond should read it before he universally condemns the research on this topic or mistakenly attributes it all to Dr. Murray Straus.
Something important to remember, is that Rosemond is not a researcher. He speaks from a pro-hitting bias. This is understandable since he has been pro-hitting for decades in his advice columns and books, and makes his money by advising parents to be harsh toward children. He can't back up his claims about child-hitting with facts; rather, he panders to spankers who want to hear that hitting little children is a good thing. This is very unprofessional. CED, on the other hand, makes no money from defending children and the truth. From a financial viewpoint alone, Rosemond is the less credible debater.
- Susan Lawrence August 2, 2008 6:07PM
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Baby boomer response
I sincerely believe if a child deserves a spanking, they should receive it. It appears that we have a definite problem with the youth of today, as opposed to the older generation, most of which, I assume, received spankings as children. I don't see many 50, 60, and 70 year olds that have rebellious or violent tendencies because of their history of spankings. There is a big difference between spankings and beatings, and as long as the parent knows the difference, there should be no problem when a spanking is called for.
- Glasscat
August 3, 2008 10:20AM
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I agree
I agree that the children of today do not understand disipline these days. I used to teach preschool children and just in the last ten years I noticed a big difference in childrens behavior.Now I notice young people in their early twenties being very disrispectful towards authority figures e.g. teachers, bosses ect... These changes started when parents stopped spanking and used time outs or reasoning trust me does not always work and I speak from experiance I have two boys that not always behaved outside the home I was afraid to disapline them in public becaose I was afraid I would get into trouble for giving them one swat but on one of our outings one of my children was acting out and I was very imberrassed so I swatted his bottom and he stopped.An older lady approached me and said thank you!Young parents have to understand that if your having a bad time with your child at the think of the people around you. It is not pleasant when I have to go to the store and there is a child in front of you screaming because they can't have a toy or some candy and the mother is very emberassed I just think give the child a good swat it will stop even my kids look at those children in disbeliefe So I dont think my kids siffered from an occasional swat on the bottom or slap on the hand.So just think when you see someone swat there child remember it is there child so dont interfer and they are just trying to make not only there shopping trip better but yours also
- katlvbill
December 9, 2008 8:11PM
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Worked for me
I know the threat of a belt kept me straight some people need that. Had my 6th grade teacher not had that paddle there would have been anarchy. See I told you!
My son says the same thing today!!
- Cherokee Fred hussein August 5, 2008 2:08AM
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Spanking is Not Acceptable
Not only is spanking ineffective, it is unacceptable. I wouldn't allow someone to slap me if I were acting out of line, why would I consider it OK to spank my child.
- MelissaH August 5, 2008 3:36PM
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My daughter doesn't need it...
Before I go further, I don't praise or criticize anyone on their discipline methods. AN INDIVIDUAL SHOULD BE ABLE TO ACT AS HE OR SHE WISHES.
- PSYOP
August 5, 2008 8:37PM
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I don't need to spank my child...
How you discipline your child is your business, that's freedom. I CAN tell you that when my child misbehaves, I stop immediately and say "WHOA...can you tell me why what you just did is unacceptable?" This seems to always work for us, and though it involves a bit more time and thought, it teaches our child to THINK and UNDERSTAND why certain things are inappropriate. It can be hard to fight frustration, and every parent is ready to snap at one time or another, but hey, you get out of your children what you invest in them. I believe that hitting is not OK in 99% of circumstances (barring life and death occasions), so don't confuse children by hitting them. Furthermore, shame as a tool pales in comparison with learning. I have reservations with the earlier assertion that children can't reason before age 10. If one thinks that way, then kids aren't given a CHANCE TO REASON!
- PSYOP
August 5, 2008 8:48PM
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Children behave as well as they are treated!
1. Children learn by our example. Hitting children teaches them to become hitters themselves.
2. In many cases of so-called "bad behavior", the child is simply responding in the only way he can, given his age and experience. It is surely wrong and unfair to punish a child for responding in a natural way to having important needs neglected.
3. Punishment distracts the child from learning how to resolve conflict in an effective and humane way.
4. Punishment, even when it appears to work, can produce only superficially good behavior based on fear, which can only take place until the child is old enough to resist.
Parents, please see my article "Twenty-Two Alternatives to Punishment" at The Natural Child Project website.
Jan Hunt, M.Sc., Director
The Natural Child Project
- naturalchild August 6, 2008 8:09AM
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Be gentle to your kids!
It's surprising Mr. Rosemond thinks research on spanking kids is not conclusive. If you take the time to look at it, and there are dozens of studies, the overwhelming majority of them show more harms than benefits to hitting for discipline. The only study I see mentioned by Mr. Rosemond is one by Baumrind, which is a weak study at best (and doesn't show that spanking is good for children, only that "mild" spanking has "few harmful effects" ). For the record, Baumrind didn't hit her own children! In her own words she says she doesn't advocate spanking.
For me, I don't need any studies. I was hit as a child and I knew it was wrong (and scary and depressing). It didn't teach me anything other than my parents can't be trusted and that I didn't want to be like them.
There are better ways to instill respectful, wise behavior. The kids I know who are hit are the rude, out-of-control ones. The ones who aren't hit (including mine of course) are gentle, smart and polite.
- Carol August 6, 2008 6:13PM
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Does not always work
My parents were that way with my little brother and it did not work. As a result he has been in and out of prisons, has no respect for authority, has no respect for our parents, and many other problems.
If you raise your children to be respectful from the start, then there is rarely ever a need to spank them. I have two boys that have been tested and found to be a genious level IQ's. They rationalize everything that they do. If they don't obey, I have two choices, swat them, or talk to them. If what they did was minor, talking to them always works. However, there has been rare occasions when a swat on the bottom was merrited. That does not make me or any other person who uses that form of punishment on occasion a bad parent, an uncaring parent or a monster.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 5:15AM
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Conspiracy Theories
Every single national psychological, psychiatric, pediatric and medical professional association in the entire western world that comments on the issue (not counting political pressure groups) states that spanking is harmful to children. The scientific evidence is overwhelming. Any kind of claim that the scientific community is pretending on that point is conspiracy theory stuff of the first order.
If you care, you will look at the evidence. If your child had a fever, you would ask what medical science says should be done. Why would you put any less faith in what their research says about corporal punishment?
Just as a tiny sampling (and check the rest to make sure that I'm not cherry-picking), have a look at what is said online by The American Academy of Pediatrics, The American Psychological Association, The Canadian Paediatrics Society, England's Royal College of Paediatrics, and The Australian Psychological Society. No such organizations agree with Rosemond.
- Greg1 August 7, 2008 6:14AM
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Check their methodology...
ALL of the studies you cite are skewed. Associations, Societies, Departments ALL have something to gain by way of fees for their services or legitimacy via publishing as in academia. Don't you think they act on economic or self interest? Many of the studies are of segments of society that are ILL, INCARCERATED or DAMAGED. However important these classes are they do NOT use normal [NOT needing their services] as control sets. So how are we to believe their STATS? If you're a good statistician you can't. However, if you have money to make or a tenure to gain you will create a client/test base WHEREVER you can. It's called self-fulfillment. And some might consider THAT a problem in need of a cure as well.
Victor Frankl was also derided for his work by the APA. He got in trouble with them when he challenged them to CURE themselves of their need to treat their clients incessantly without ever reaching any substantive resolution. He accused them of being addicted to their client's money.
No wonder they hated him.
So my considered advice [successful parent] is for you to query a complete cross section of parents both current and past, good and bad, lazy and proactive, incarcerated and free, criminal and upstanding citizen et al. Until you do, you might want to guard against standing on the shaky ground of "studies by...
- BLZeebub
November 23, 2008 10:22AM
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Hearing Voices
As one of thousands of people who work in children's mental health, I know that harsh physical punishment of children CAUSES problems; it doesn't FIX problems or children. If John Rosemond hears a voice telling him to beat children, I do not believe it comes from God. Competent psychologists, ministers and world leaders know that children need inner strength and hope, not fear and anxiety.
- F L Morris August 7, 2008 9:43AM
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Kids Learn
I am just writing after reading Jimmy words that the parents should not spank the kids as if the parents hit the child they will learn to hit. but what do you thing about parents. they are enemy of kids. No instead they are the right path for the kids who just teach the kids after their experience from the life. and they lead the kids to good things sometimes by small hitting and sometimes with a smiling face.
Overall, it's better to control the kids in both ways that is by spanking and by happiness.
Muhammad Sajid
- Muhammad Sajid
August 7, 2008 10:37AM
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Hitting is wrong whether you're an infant, child, or adult
Hitting hurts. It may stop certain behaviours, but only in the short-term. And not everyone hit in the past. My loving, wonderful Great-Grandma raised five children with the firm belief that hitting only taught children to hit. Her children, my Grandma and her siblings, were all loving, productive, wonderful citizens and parents. Hitting or spanking is used by parents who don't know how to otherwise discipline. It makes no sense to hit children when the goal is to raise children to be kind and polite. Why is it okay to hit children and not grown family relations, other adult strangers, or say grannies? Hitting is wrong. And you cannot tell me that Jesus would advocate beating children. Do shepherds beat their sheep? Uh, NO.
- Mumof4 August 7, 2008 12:49PM
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Sheep
"Do shepherds beat their sheep?"
You've never been to New Zealand, eh?
- reb412 August 30, 2008 9:04PM
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Spanking is an absolute esential for discipline
Disciplining a child is all a part of their development. You must have a deterrent of some kind.
Some kids only understand the stick otherwise you wont get through to them.
To avoid this is to delay a prison sentence when they get commit an offence that would have been prevented with earlier correction
- brakers
August 7, 2008 8:04PM
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I will not . . .
I will not do anything to my child that I wouldn't want done to me. I will not hit my child. I will not do something that causes my child to fear me. I will not tell my child that might makes right. I will not send my child mixed messages--I love you and I hit you. I will not promote violence.
Spanking is hitting and there is nothing good that will come of hitting one's child. Nothing.
I want a better world. I will treat my child as such.
- jawgnat
August 7, 2008 8:46PM
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Hitting Little Children
Even without decades of research identifying the potentially harmful long and short term outcomes of this deplorable practice of hitting the bodies of little children in the name of discipline, common sense and decency should tell us that this is an unacceptable practice. When large children hit and hurt smaller children, we call them bullies. What should we call a full grown adult who is so lacking in parenting and discipline strategies that he or she resorts to hitting a child?
- LaVonne August 8, 2008 5:24AM
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Compassionate and effective alternatives to punishment
1. Prevent unwanted behavior by meeting your child's needs when they are first expressed. With her current needs met, she is free to move on to the next stage of learning.
2. Provide a safe, child-friendly environment. There is little point in having precious items within the reach of a baby or toddler, when they can simply be put away until the child is old enough to handle them carefully.
3. Apply the Golden Rule. Think about how you would like to be treated if you were to find yourself in the same circumstances as your child. Human nature is human nature, regardless of age.
4. Show empathy for your child's feelings. Even if a child's behavior seems illogical, his underlying feelings and needs are real to him. A statement like "You seem really unhappy" is a good way to show that you are on your child's side.
For 18 more alternatives, see "22 Alternatives to Punishment: on my Natural Child Project site (go to Articles > Jan Hunt > Living with Children).
Jan Hunt, M.Sc. Counselor
- naturalchild August 8, 2008 11:36AM
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spanking is ridiculous
hitting a child in the name of discipline is ridiculous. why people continue to endorse treating helpless children this way i do not understand. if i were to hit another adult in order to attempt to change his or her behavior i would go to jail. people who hit little children should be dealt with similarly.
- molls August 8, 2008 1:38PM
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Spanking creates aggression
I have read in many surveys a lot of arguments against and for spanking. Setting all the research aside and looking only at the aggressive language used and the intellectual level of the majority of pro-spankers who were spanked themselves as well, it is difficult not to come to the conclusion that spanking creates aggression and harms children mental development. If for nothing else, then for the sake of non-aggressive, mentally fit society spanking for “correction” should be banished, and the sooner the better.
- Dana
August 8, 2008 4:45PM
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hmm...
I was spanked as child and I have NEVER been aggressive towards anyone.
I also disagree with you saying that because I was spanked it messed with me mentally or that now because I am an adult who was spanked I am not mentally ready for society.
I guess I might as well go hide under a rock because my parents doomed me to a life of violence and insecurity. WRONG!
I loved and respected my parents then and I do now. There is no resentment for the way they corrected me. I am a strong healthy,good, well rounded adult.
Your statement is not true for everyone. At least it's not true with me,or my husband who was also spanked and is now a wonderful, kind, and respectful man.
- Jordyn August 23, 2008 12:02AM
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DO NOT PLAY RUSSIAN ROULETTE WITH YOUR CHILDREN
While it is true that some people do turn out OK after spanking,it's not always so. Do we know what the results will be if we spank a child? If we are honest, we would have to say no. It's like playing Russian roulette. you don't know whether you will pull the trigger on the live chamber or not. Why take that chance and live to regret it. There are safer and more dependable methods out there. Our forefathers didn't have the access to the resources that we have and had to rely on what they were taught. We are without excuse and as a result, we must learn to say no to what is harmful and yes to what is helpful.
- edwin p
August 23, 2008 1:56PM
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The Parenting Golden Rule
"Treat all others as you would like to be treated yourself." The Golden Rule has proved its excellence as a moral guide since ancient times.
It might be illuminating to apply this rule to common methods of discipline, considering the case of a husband and wife in the "same position" as that of children being disciplined:
1. Physical Punishment:The wife accidentally spills coffee on her husband's new jacket. He hits her.
Will the wife be more careful with his belongings in the future? Or might she have him arrested for spousal abuse?
2. Time-out: The husband starts to argue with a visiting friend. The wife tells him "It's not nice to argue with your friend! I won't have this! Go sit in the bedroom for half an hour!"
Will the husband become less argumentative? Will the embarrassment of the situation set him straight? Will he feel like apologizing to his friend?
See the full article at The Natural Child Project site: Articles > Jan Hunt > Living With Children
- naturalchild August 9, 2008 4:20PM
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a swat on the bottom never did permanite damage
spanking should be just part of a parents tool box. it should be used in cases of direct defience.
i disagree with some experts who say use a wooden spoon or some other type of pattle. I think it is important for parents to use their hands so they can feel how hard they are accually swatting. it would be too easy to hurt your child if you can not feel it.
- superherom03
August 11, 2008 6:40AM
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SOME PEOPLE ARE DOUBLEMINDED
I know a Christian woman who does not believe in child abuse but still insists that children should be spanked so they will grow up OK. By approving of spanking, she is taking away her power to launch any successful protest against abuse. Anything that causes pain is abuse. Since at one time it was legal for husbands to hit wives, I asked her if it would be OK for me to hit her if she was my wife and misbehaved. She refused to give me an answer and gave me the brush off. It seems that when you get people like this over a barrel, they let pride get in the way and either change the subject or tell you to get lost. People like this give the Christianity I believe in a bad name and and hinder me and other concerned Christians in our efforts to protect children's rights. When are they going to learn that standing up for children's rights is a Christian responsibility? Don't be discouraged you who are standing up for children's rights. KEEP ON KEEPING ON!
- edwin p
August 11, 2008 1:48PM
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Spanking is not Abuse
Spanking a child as a form of punishment and abusing them just because you can are not one in the same. When spanking becomes abuse, then it is a problem. One swat to get the attention does not kill, maime, or permanently injure any child. Spanking them as the only form of punishment for every thing that they do is wrong.
- UltraConservative November 5, 2008 3:14PM
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Hitting children is wrong
Hitting children does not solve any problems, it only causes more problems. Even if children behave better if they are hit, this is just out of fear and when they are old enough to do it back to their parents they stop behaving so well and become more violent in the long-term. Instead of hurting their children, parents should reason with them and explain things. Hitting teaches children that hitting is okay and that parents are scary. It does not teach children the good things that reasoning with them does.
- zoe August 12, 2008 5:43PM
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Risk outweighs any benefit
When it comes to children, it is wrong to make them participants in anything that has the slightest significance for risk... unless there is some good that can more certainly be gained in this way than by any other means that is safer. Surely, you can always think of at least one way to interrupt a child's unwanted behavior and/or guide a child toward acceptable behavior that is safer, positive and at least as effective as hitting the child. Once you realize that, spanking cannot be justified again. It is the principle that guides physicians and other professionals: do no harm. It should be a principle of parenting, as well. The risks posed are not offset by any good that cannot not be realized in a safer way.
- Randy Cox
August 13, 2008 12:06PM
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It's your problem, not theirs
Spanking a child is never appropriate. The act itself is revealing a lack of ability from the parent to effectively teach his or her child the lesson needed to be learned.
Quite often the anger preceded by the spanking itself is the parent's inability to manage his or her life and emotions, thus another inappropriate example to the child.
A child need only be told not to do something then removed from a situation. Spanking is a result of a parent unwilling to disrupt his or her life by having to remove the child (and his or her self) from any given situation whereby a lesson needed to be taught. The parent doesn't wish to be inconvenienced.
Spanking is the lazy parent's way of teaching and discipline.
- scooteraz
August 21, 2008 6:22AM
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No Problem with Spanking
I grew up in an era where 'time outs' were for sports and the spanking was what you got when you did something you were explicitly told not to do. I don't feel I was scarred by it and it didn't make me a dysfunctional adult. It did make me think twice about doing something I knew I wasn't supposed to do. From what I’ve seen reasoning has very little affect, and the simpering parent is almost as annoying as the ill behaved child. Too often children manipulate their parents with their bad behavior. If they understand that mom and dad aren't going to tolerate it, they stop. I’m concerned about the lack of discipline in a younger generation where plea bargaining and compromise has been the norm between parent and child. The child ultimately gets his/her way and the parent is the dupe. Naturally, I don’t believe in excessive punishment. Beating a child is not acceptable; but the occasional smack on the rump or slap on the hand makes a child understand when they’ve crossed the line.
- Robin August 28, 2008 4:23PM
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Left to me.........
I think spanking could be used in two instances only, which are: when a child DELIBERATELY repeats an unwanted behavior which has been previously warned against at least 3 times before. Secondly, if a child has been given a punishment for an infraction but DELIBERATELY fails to accept and do the punishment. And I meant to highlight deliberately for a reason. I believe that in these two cases, the child is showing signs of insubordination and unyielding resistance which should not be entertained by the parent. And I am putting it forward that the most effective way to handle this type of situation is to administer a firm spanking, just enough to make the child start crying and no more. My aim is not to beat up my child, it is just to teach him/her a lesson in obedience.
Also, before spanking a child, there must be a warning therefore the child has a choice as to whether he/she wants to be spanked or not if he continues with the unwanted behavior. I believe spankings should be left for the most serious infractions. Also, mistakes must not be punished, we all make mistakes.
Looking at the big picture I just refuse to accept the fact that a firm spanking ,if administered sparingly and only when needed, would cause a child to develop personality problems. The reason for this is that majority of people who have these problems in life where never from balanced home environments from the start. They were either punished violently too frequently and unnecessarily or they were not brought up in a healthy and child-friendly environment which includes among others positive reinforcement, rewards, patience,fairness,empathy, love, education, inspiration and trust on the part of parents and guardians.
When people say that it is wrong to rightly spank a child because an adult cannot be spanked, I beg to differ. And this is because, when last was it accepted that a husband can ground his wife or send her to her room for a time out or tell her to stand in the corner or give her more house chores or tell her to write lines or send her to bed early or refuse her computer time or TV time or collect her favorite hobby/pastime/jewelery of even scold her or give her a good talking to???
I think before we all start jumping to conclusions, we should analyze things better.
- daughterofgoodluck August 30, 2008 11:38AM
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THERE WAS A TIME WIVES COULD BE BEATEN
There was a time that husbands could legally spank their wives if they misbehaved. Not beat, just enough to show who was boss and to keep order in the home. There was a time when it was legal for employers to whip their employees for insubordination. Today, such things are illegal and could land you in trouble with the law. Also it is a criminal offence to beat a dog or cat. If it is wrong to hit any of these, why should children be any different? Prisoners in a jail cannot be hit. Therefore why should children be hit when they haven't commited any crime? WHAT ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HIT CHILDREN THINKING?
- edwin p
August 31, 2008 6:35PM
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Ok
So now if we want to exclude spanking, could husbands still punish/discipline their wives in the same manner that is still considered acceptable towards children e.g grounding, withdrawal of privileges etc.? Or is it wrong nowadays for parents to still use these other forms of punishment with their children since it's not allowed in a husband-wife relationship or even vice-versa?
If we really want to be realistic here, we can't compare the relationship a husband has with his wife or that which a boss has with his employee WITH a parent-child relationship. Whereby the former could be seen as a partnership,parents are in a position of authority and are responsible for the discipline and upbringing of their children which could involve punishment in reasonable and considerate limits when the need arises. Firm discipline in a healthy and child-friendly environment could be one of the BEST privileges a child could ever have because such a child would mature to become a balanced and respectable member of society which we all know.
Let's face it, right now if a man treats his wife (or even if a woman treats her husband) like one of his children, and decides to punish her (still excluding spanking that is), won't it still be a criminal offense? At least I know that if a boss decides to seize his employees car keys, carry his employee off to her office for a time out on her table or chair as the case may be, it would be considered a criminal offense.
Something tells me that there would come a time in the world when people would come up with the idea that, it is not allowed for parents to penalize their kids for disobedience.
- daughterofgoodluck August 31, 2008 10:15PM
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I"M REFERRING TO SPANKING
I am not against non violent ways of discipline, just those that involve striking the body in any way. When a man and woman marry they vow to love and take care of each other. Sure, there will be differences of opinion but there are peaceful ways to settle them. Witholding support from your spouse is considered a Civil Offence, not a Criminal One. As for the master and servant relationship, under Employment Law, your employer has the authority to issue a verbal and/ or written reprimand and/or suspend and/or fire you for insubordination or any other breach of your employment contract.So you see,there are many ways for parents to deal with children that are legal and don't involve striking the body.
- edwin p
September 1, 2008 4:04PM
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So you're not opposed to other ways of discipline
Good we can agree on that. I hope you know that some parents are totally against any form of discipline, they say that love and punishment don't flow ,you know. To show you the extent to which man has distorted the idea of parental discipline.
Now, I hope you know that confiscation of treasured property or restriction of movement by marriage partners is considered spousal abuse. While, there is no specific criminal offense of spousal abuse, the rules of criminal law can cover spousal abuse which corresponds to a criminal offense such as in cases of forcible confinement and intimidation. Even if I base it on your comment that it is a civil offense, then it is still an offense. Yes as you said, even if my employer has the right to do all of the above, he still does not have the right whatsoever to restrict my movement or confiscate my property. Just as you can't go out and restrict your neighbor or their kid for misbehaving.
Now, I'm saying that assuming we excluded spanking and focused on other forms of discipline that you agree with. Since it would be considered spousal abuse if a man decides to punish his wife in a way which is acceptable to punish his child, then is that not child abuse? So can we conclude that time-out, withdrawal of treasured property/ privileges, grounding and all others that 'non-spankers' recommend, are all forms of child abuse? Just as people say that, since it is an offense to 'spank' a spouse or outsider or co-worker, then it must also be an offense to spank children.
- daughterofgoodluck September 2, 2008 12:06AM
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Right on
I completely agree. I think spanking is acceptable if used as a last resort or as punishment for deliberate defiance. The few times I have spanked my children I have always warned them before doing so. And this was also after using other disciplinary tactics. I also have a hard time believing spanking causes personality problems. If spanking is used as the primary form of discipline, then yes, it's very possible they may have aggression issues. However, if spanking is used only occasionally in the types of situations you mention, in an otherwise loving home environment, I don't think it is inappropriate or unacceptable.
- nmay88 September 18, 2008 3:08PM
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It's not about the violence
Spanking a child is a simple form and yet effective form of telling a child it has gone too far.
Imagine the situation: your 4/5-year old child is playing around with the glass figures in a vitrine. it might even climb into it tograb the topmost figurine. you tell it to stop, but are too occupied to watch over it all the time, because you are fixing dinner. So as you tell it to stop, it knows it is forbidden (maybe you also tell it that it could be dangerous). Your child obeys, but as you turn away, the shiny glass figures are suddenly more interesting than what you said. so it starts messing around nevertheless. you tell it to stop again, in a more severe way, you mgiht even threat with punishment. But your child is smart. It knows there might be some consequences, but doesn't have a clear image of them, also the figurines are by far more interesting and what could possibly go wrong? so as you turn away again, your child tries to climb for the topmost figure again. it has stepped over the line and now has to know the consequences for disobeying. you slap it. not hard. the child just has to learn that there are consequences, immediate conseuqence for its stipping-over-the-line.
- eApricot September 4, 2008 1:21PM
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it's not about the violence 2
So you see, once a child has gone too far, it must face immediate punishment. this is, as simple as it sounds, basic conditioning. Let's explain this: if you want to enhance the behavior shown, you have to give affirmative input. If you train a dog, you give it a bone, if you raise a child, you may compliment it, and so on. If you want to reduce the behavior shown, ONLY punishment will work. Of course, the forms if punishment may vary, but it has to happen immediately. Slapping is only one form, it should always be the last resort. But what is even more important than all of the above is CONSISTENCY. Every form of beavior can only be trained or "de-trained" if the reaction to it is consistent. Inconsistency is the way to spoil a child, a dog or even mouse. It might sound hard comparing children to dogs, but it really is that simple. Incosistent input as well as backing down to whining (e.g. supermarket/sweets...) is what spoils a child.
- eApricot September 4, 2008 1:38PM
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Violence is never the right answer
If we can go to jail for hitting an adult, who is capable of defending himself, why is it acceptable to hit a child, who is incapable of defending himself?
Physical harm is not a reasonable punishment for caring, peaceful parents. It's simply unfathomable.
I do not hit my children. My friends do not hit their children. We are committed to peace, and our children are not wild, misbehaving brats as a result. Spanking, swatting, slapping, none of these things are necessary to raise well-behaved children.
- crunchymom September 18, 2008 3:59AM
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Who Do children belong to ?
The question is who do your childen belong to? You or the state? The state in most cases, feel that they have the right to tell parents how they can and cannot raise their children because our government thinks that the children belong to them. If that were true, then the government should pay all their bills, buy their cloths, furnish all their food, pay for their education, buy their cars, etc. However, since that is not the case, maybe the government and other people should leave how a parent decides to discipline THEIR childrent to them.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 5:22AM
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That's a disgusting answer
Children are not livestock. You don't own them like a car or cow. Yes they are part of your family, but they are human beings.
- crunchymom November 4, 2008 12:48PM
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exactly my point
You made my point for me. They are my family, not yours, not the governments, not any one elses. Therefore, How I choose to discipline them is my concern, not yours or any one elses. My wife and I bore our children. We feed them, we supply for them, we buy their cloths, pay for their education, etc. That makes us, not the government or any liberal "lets just love every one" person, responsible for them.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 1:37PM
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Besides
Besides that, this is a forum for sharing ones views of something, not sitting in judgement and attacking people the way that you are doing. What gives you the right to attact me or any one else? If you want to share your views, fine. But do not sit in judgment and call people names because they view things differently.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 1:41PM
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I said your answer was disgusting, not you
I get to say your idea is abhorrent.
I haven't attacked anyone personally anywhere on this entire website.
- crunchymom November 4, 2008 4:08PM
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You side stepped the question
You completely side stepped the question. My question of who do your children belong to does not make them any thing less than children. My wife and I did not consult the government or any one else when we decided to have children. They did not pay for them to be born. We did. They bear my last name, not the government or any one eles. Therefore, I have the right to decide what is right for them. They are not educated in the Public School system because of the same beliefs. Personally, my children belong to God. When they were born we dedicated them back to him for the gift he gave us. Therefore, we, being my wife and I, not my wife and I, and the government (or any one else) have a Biblical responsiblilty to raise them up the right way. You want to know what the Christian means of discipline is? Try reading the Bible, it is there. My guess is though, that you really don't want to know that even though you rely on a "Conservative Christian's" opinion who does not even hold a Biblical basis for it.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 9:31PM
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That's an entirely different debate
I read the Old and New Testaments regularly. I did not sidestep your question, but you did attack me in a way that was untrue.
Unless you can show me where in the New Testament Christ said that we have a duty to strike our children, then the Bible is not and never will be an excuse to use corporal punishment. It's true, my interpretations are different from yours, which is why there are so many Christian denominations around. No one can agree. My interpretation, along with the interpretation of my Church leaders and teachers, is that Christ was gentle and peaceful, and wanted us to replace the law of Moses with someting deeper, to address our inner minds as well as our outer actions. I teach my children that Jesus Christ believed in charity and peacemaking and controlling our anger. I believe striking a child undermines that message.
I was spanked as a child and I turned out OK, too, but I also broke my arm and turned out OK, and survived an abusive relationship and turned out Okay. That doesn't mean I don't wish I could not have experienced those things, or that those things were necessary. They weren't. I'm glad your children turned out fine and that you turned out fine. I still believe spanking to be a horrible, and will continue to say so to anyone who will hear it.
As for your question about your children belonging to you - I do not believe that this makes it OK to hurt them. My husband supports me, pays our bills, buys our groceries, and is the head of our house, but that does not give him the right to hit me. I believe human beings are born with certain rights and that physical violence goes against those rights. And I KNOW Christ would never spank a child. I know that. If I ask myself WWJD, striking a child isn't one of them.
- crunchymom November 4, 2008 11:35PM
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Spanking
Spanking is an acceptable form of discipline, when it is done in love, without anger and is discussed with the child so he/she understands why they are receiving this kind of correction. I do not believe a parent should spank their child for childish behavior, but for repeated willful disobedience and rebellion they need this type of discipline. Children with boundaries are happier children ... spanking is one type of boundary that will produce a happy child if administered correctly.
- Canadian September 18, 2008 7:59PM
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Children Are Not Possessions
It grieves me how many people here believe that they should be able to do whatever they want to their children. Children are not dogs to be trained or clay to be molded. They are people, born with their own personalities and passions. We are teachers and guides, not police officers or lion tamers.
We would not swat our grandmother, even if she was losing the ability to tell the difference between right and wrong. We would not smack the hand of our spouse for never remembering to put their clothes in the hamper or balancing the check book. A peaceful society cannot reasonably defend the use of physical harm to teach a child how to behave in a peaceful society.
- crunchymom September 19, 2008 4:01PM
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If it grieves you
If it grieves you, then don't post, don't comment, don't come on here. People are allowed to have views that differ. That is what makes us individuals and not puppets and robots. There is a difference in spanking and abuse. Once swat did not kill me, not has it killed or injured my children. Abuse is when you take that swat and do it out of pure anger and hate. In the state I live in, if you do any sort of discipline such as time outs, sending them to their room, or any thing that off sets them from other human contact for any period of time, it is against the law. We have become a society so worried about what others are doing and spend far to little time in our own back yards. Maybe if people minded their own business more, then my state would not be bringing the SRS in my state up in Lawsuits and Charges for wrongly interpreting what abuse was and wrongly removing children from their homes.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 9:56PM
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So which is it?
"If it grieves youIf it grieves you, then don't post, don't comment, don't come on here. People are allowed to have views that differ."
Those two sentences contradict themselves. If something makes me sad I shouldn't speak up about it? If I don't agree I shouldn't come to a debate board where people post opposite views? You do know this is an OPPOSING VIEWS board, right? And I oppose your view. If you want people to not disagree with your view, go start a blog.
- crunchymom November 4, 2008 11:02PM
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Restatement
Let me put it this way then since you did not understand what I was saying. You have repeatedly told people on here to stop hurting children. Not every one see's spanking as hurting children. Are they wrong? That is not for you or any Dr. to decide. They is for them as individuals to decide. I do not desire to change your view. I do however what you to see that there are other views about it and that just because someone does not agree with you about spanking, it does not make them a bad parent, a monster as others have suggested, abusive, or any thing else negative.
- UltraConservative November 5, 2008 11:11AM
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Spanking teaches children to hit!
Is that really what you want to convey? That hitting and violence are acceptable means of dealing with conflict? Personally, that's the last thing I want on my conscience.
- bagpiper2005
October 26, 2008 3:35PM
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So long as it is not abusive
I believe that spaking is appropriate when need be. There are some things that children do that must be met with harsher punishments than others. For my children, time outs do not work, grounding them does not work, taking things away does not work. Why? Because they have been raised that things do not matter. They have a tv, but they don't watch it much, they have video games, but they don't play them. Fun for them is working with our hunting dogs. Taking away their TV just has no affect on them. I also believe that there is a point when spanking becomes abuse. When it becomes abusive, then it is damaging to the child. I was raised by my grandparents and spanking was their method of punishment. I would say it did not affect me any. I have a family of my own, I have spent 16 years in college, I have my own business, etc.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 4:49AM
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By all means, yes!
SOME children need spanked. Some listen better than others and will comply with a warning. On the other hand, we have all seen the talk shows "My Seven Year Old is out of Control"... Ok, well, that is the parents fault. Anyone who would let their children act out like that needs spanked, then the children need spanked! Get control of your kids- but, keep in mind there is a difference between disipline and abuse.
- cacord84
December 6, 2008 4:48AM
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pain is real
I think that spanking should not be a common staple of child discipline, but it can be warranted. Sometimes children engage in activities that directly physically harm others or if continued will lead to physical harm to the child. I think in some such circumstances, a spanking should accompany other types of punishment because pain is a real consequence. This however will not be useful if you use spanking as a consequence for everyday incursions. Also, sometimes people give a spanking, notice that it works and then try to use spanking as a threat for anything they don't like. This also negates the point. Once when my nephew was about 2, he decided that biting me was a really funny game--he was biting me very hard and laughing at my reaction. We tried everything to get him to stop, but nothing worked and he kept doing it. I finally took his hand and bit one of his fingers--not super hard, but hard enough to let him know that I wasn't playinng a game. He was incredibly shocked and immediately stopped the biting game. I don't think my message was confusing in the least bit.
- wrww
December 8, 2008 6:57AM
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Not Acceptable
If we teach our kids that it's ok to hit another person when they disobey what we say then they will want to hit their friends, siblings, etc. If we teach them the non-violent consequences of their actions, it's even more effective at changing the behavior without violence.
If you really think it's ok to hit a loved one who is not listening or obeying, why can't we hit our spouses then when they don't listen to what we want them to do? Beating on an innocent child who trusts us and is just learning about boundaries and right/wrong is really outmoded and incorrect thinking. Try the "Love and Logic" techniques or even read the book "One, Two, Three, Magic" for non-violent discipline. I really don't need my kids to fear me, I'd like them to understand why what they are doing is not acceptable. I get my point across fine without screaming, berating or hitting my children and you know what? they are nice kids and don't hit anyone else, either but the kids in their class that are smacked and yelled at are kind of not nice kids to play with and I feel so bad for them.
- Flora
December 8, 2008 9:15AM
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YES
Spanking is fine. Before the so called "experts" (professionally educated people who a lot of times don't even have children) started telling parents how to parents, children used to obey ANY authority, not just their parents. They had respect for any grown person. Most of those children were spanked when they were little if they needed it and turned out just fine. You don't see adults who were spanked as a child going around hitting everybody in sight.
I know plenty of parents who don't spank their children for fear of psychologically harming their child, and guess what?? The kids are so misbehaved I can't allow my children around them. There is a right way to spank a child. Never spank your child out of anger. You can explain to them why they are getting a spanking and then hug them afterwards. They will grow up to be loving, happy children.
- swissmaedel2008
December 8, 2008 11:25AM
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teaching reality
I have noticed that many of the post stress how bad parents are who spank or don't spank... many are missing the most important point; are you teaching your child to be a good citizen?
I am a law enforcement officer, I am also a father. I think that parents who lean totally one way or the other are doing a great disservice to their children. Reality is just that, the world is not a touchy feely place that only soft plush characters live in; and neither is it a place of constant violence where danger and death is around ever corner.
Telling a child no is a good thing, backing up that no is better. I the backup is to use time outs and loss of privilege then so be it... and if that doesn't work a quick swat on the bottom or hand may be required. Stop thinking that the world is black and white and be a realist. The child that in front of you is your pride and joy and a little angle for the most part has learned to play the part to perfection. I have seen mothers call about 18 year old daughters who are "virgins" with "no knowledge of men" when asked if they had a boy friend end up being found in the bed of 35 year old men who they had been seeing for just short of a year. Sorry Mom, the girl knew and even told the mother off after that. I have dealt with 19 year old sons who "stay in the books" and "would never drink much less associate with drug" end up arrested for dealing drugs. Oh by the way, these are not low class parents, they were professionals and the children were raised with privilege, responsibility, and modern discipline.
I stopped a young man one day and when I informed him that he needed to give me his license, he said I needed to do something anatomically impossible. I informed him that he had a legal requirement to present his license due to the fact that he was driving, again he was rude. I then told him that if he didn't cooperate I would take him into custody for DWI and other charges, he then balled up his fist and told me his mother and father told him he had rights and that I "better back off." I then informed him I would use force if he didn't cooperate and he told me, "my mom and dad don't speak to me that way so you sure as hell can't." At which time I informed him that he would be taken into custody and if he made me use force I would bring him to the doctor before bringing him to jail; his jaw dropped and he started to cry; crying 20 year old boys are a sight.
A good friend of mine who works narcotics asked a father to help him by letting him search an area that he was given information that the young man was hiding drugs in the father's home. The officer had been told that the boy was protected by the parents and had never had to be punished or told "no." The father denied the officer and the boy was not able to be arrested, one year later the boy again became a subject that my friend had information on, this time for a worse crime. He talked to the father and told him that he was not helping the boy by protecting him and that his son would one day do something that he couldn't shield him from, Dad said he had a duty to protect his son no matter what. The young man is now serving a life sentence without parole, he killed someone. The father ask my friend every couple of months if there is nothing to be done... and the answer is always the same, "I'm sorry, no." My friend and I spoke of it one night, he told me that we could have stopped it if the father had been honest with himself and helped his son to grow up, even though it would have hurt him at the time, but now the young man will live and die in jail.
Teach your children to obey... teach them nice, and if you have to don't be as nice, "you are the parent, not their friend." They have a life to live where others "will" require them to behave in a proper manner, and they won't care if your child was raised strict or liberal.
Give them the chance to mature as they grow, don't make them go out into the world and then have to try to play catch up.
- rarelyon
December 8, 2008 3:39PM
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Not acceptable for a many reasons
I can not believe people, especially a psychologist believes it could be okay to hit a child. The Scandanavian countries have banned hitting children and they have the lowest rate of child abuse.
Discipline is about teaching children appropriate behaviour and how can it be appropriate to use violence? I sure do think it does harm. I still remember my younger siblings getting a spanking and how upsetting it was for me. There are so many better ways to teach a child.
- Momtotwo
January 6, 2009 11:42PM
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Spanking is Acceptable
Spanking is correct when a child does something bad after been warned, of course when spanking , the parent has to explain to the child that he is spanking him because he didn't obey and that he doesn't enjoy doing it. If a parent spanks a child with anger, the child may percieve it as hate and that make cause him to fear his own parent.
- Julio Cesar
January 14, 2009 7:29PM
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Hogwash? more like child abuse
Spanking is unacceptable, regardless of the good will behind it, violence towards a child will only result in increased anger. I believe that spanking sparks from an adult insecurity and unwillingness to abide by civility and instead uses a form of pain and humiliation in order to teach children how to act. Now since when have either of those has worked? Humiliation will end up with cases like the Korean student who shot those people at VA tech, and pain will end in an animalistic intent to avoid pain, but what happens if the source of pain no longer occurs? then it renders that treatment noneffective.
- Spikeman
January 24, 2009 10:48AM
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Spanking is effective
Spanking children may not nessesarily be acceptable, but it is definitely effective. I don't think it hurt me, in fact, it helped me in the long-run. It made me look at consequences, things kids don't normally think about. Spanking creates authority as a parent and it will make your child respect you. If children don't obey or respect their parents, who will they obey or respect? Raising children starts at a young age. I definitely don't encouage abuse and your children shouldn't fear you, but they should acknowledge you. You can warn them and threaten them, but they have to know that you are serious. I was always told, "Listen, or you'll have to feel it." I listened when I was told, and now, I'm grateful I was raised like that because I feel now I am much more respectful to my peers and my elders especially. Essentially it's up to the parents, it's your kid.
- ice cream man
February 7, 2009 11:59PM
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Spanking is not the actual punishment
As one who was spanked as a child, I do feel that it is an effective form of discipline. All of this controversy arises due to the various definitions of spanking . Spanking and child abuse are two completely different stories. Spanking is not a beating – in fact, spanking is not even the punishment itself. Spanking is the first step in the discipline process. When a child is in the midst of breaking a rule, a quick tap on the butt gets their attention. This spank is not the punishment, but it stops the child in their tracks and makes them listen to what the parent has to say. The actual punishment then ensues, coming in the form of words. A parent can tell the child what they did wrong, that they broke a rule, and send them to their room, no harm done. A child’s tears do not come from the smart of the smack, but from the guilt of disrespecting their parents and knowing they did wrong.
- kas43091
February 8, 2009 6:28PM
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Spanking
As a child, I was never spanked and as a parent I don't believe I will spank my children. I think that for most children there are alternative methods of punishment. However, I am not here to argue against spanking . While I am not personal a fan of spanking I believe parents should be allowed to raise their children how they think proper. Like all things, parents should only spank children in moderation. An occasional spanking when your child has done somethign completely unnacceptable is very effective in getting their attention and priming them for a lesson you need to teach them.
- EvanD
February 20, 2009 9:14AM
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Spanking is bad
If your child is acting up and not behaving well it is because you are not doing a good job as a parent. Spanking hurts, spanking decreases self esteem, so instead of hitting your child, you should teach them what is wrong and right by talking and giving good examples.
- georgi
February 25, 2009 7:08PM
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The Scientific Answer to the Question
"There is clear research evidence that physical punishment puts children at risk for negative outcomes, including increased antisocial behavior and mental health problems." Enough said.
- MKnox
March 19, 2009 10:58AM
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Spanking is NEVER okay.
You can call it "tough love" all you want, but spanking is an absolutely unacceptable form of discipline . The same goes for the belt, paddle, smacking with the hand, or any physical means of punishment on any part of a child's body. It's assault, and I see it as abuse.
I remember when I was little, my mother and father would do that regularly to me. Sometimes they had to chase me around the house and my father would hold me still when he caught me. Sometimes I ran, locked myself in the bathroom and they would coax me out and then do it. And guess what? I hate them with such contempt they might as well be uncivilized savages. I've never forgiven them to this day and never will. And this was over 15 years ago.
I believed as civilized people, we can teach our children right from wrong without beating (spanking, swatting, whatever you want to call it) them into obedience. They say that children who went through this are more likely to have emotional disorders, more aggressive, and likely to be abusers themselves.
This goes beyond teaching them that violence is acceptable to get your way. Children may be off the wall, drive people crazy, have poor self control over what they do, but in the end they're still people and capable of reason. They're not some rag doll you can swat around out of your own frustration and belief of discipline.
- A User
April 3, 2009 1:40PM
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Spanking is never okay 2
People who still believe in spanking keep saying that kids are out of control these days. About how disrepectful they are, how sweary they are, how aggressive they are.
Have they ever stopped to think of other reasons than accusing people who don't spank? Like how much stress and pressure kids are under these days, under pressure to grow up so fast, how kids tend to act out when they're under so much stress and pressure, how polluted and congested the environment is that affect their behavior, how they don't even have time to play and be kids, demands, routines. Or maybe the people around them are a bad influence and it's not disclipine.
- A User
April 3, 2009 1:45PM
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Spanking is OKAY!!!! (...to a point)
Just because people spank their children , doesn't mean that they are going to turn out to be horrible people. It actually makes them turn out better. If a parent uses this to their advantage too much, then it can turn out bad, however, it helps children grow up to know what they are not supposed to do.
In my school, there are very few of my classmates who grew up with spanking . They are the ones who are smoking, doing drugs , having sex, etc... Their parents let them do whatever they want and when they don't obey their rules, they just take their video games away or their phones away. As soon as they get them back, they continue to their same patterns. They aren't punished enough. Spanking is a natural way to show harm and what will happen if they do something that they know is bad. All the other methods of punishment help, but they are not permanent and as soon as they get on their own, they work in what they want to do and sooner or later their careless deeds will come back to them. But by then, it is too late for the parents to help them.
I believe that a parent should do all they can to help their children in life even if it means spanking them and being a parent. A mother and a father should be parents, NOT friends. Friends is something that comes with the respect of following their rules (as long as they are reasonable).
- spiderpickle
April 24, 2009 5:39PM
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Bottom Line
Everything is good in moderation.
Don't type something stupid like "what about genocide." The fact that we are all here on this forum indicates that we all believe that ourselves are mature enough to discuss critical issues.
Spanking is not abuse, it is negative reinforcement to acts that aren't accepted in modern society . No you shouldn't spank our kid for touching an electrical socket (someone put something that alluded to that). If a child touches an electrical socket and gets a shock, your first instinct is to make sure they aren't hurt. The shock is all the "no" that child needs to keep them from that socket.
A good spanking will keep a child in line. All of these fussy kids in stores complaining about not getting what they want really need to have a conversation with their parents about money and the world not being fair. If they keep complaining, then they need a good smack to tell them "hey, I told you once and I SHOULDN'T have to tell you again." Children have the ability to reason. If they didn't, we would all be sitting in a cave with our parents and grandparents and so on and there would be less people on earth and more starvation. The fact that a child reasons is the basic building block to their life and their impact in the world. It hurts > I cry. Cant move > I squirm. Hungry > I get food . These are basic instincts.
There is a point when a spanking can be abuse. I these cases the parents don't tend to spank. In cases of abuse, parents treat their children like adults and beat them.
Was i spanked as a child? Hell yes. Was I beat as a child? No. If I did something wrong I was properly punished.
- TheOni
April 30, 2009 5:47PM
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Bad tradition
Most compelling of all reasons not to spank are the following (which can be verified by people who were actually spanked themselves by doing a little research):
“...The buttocks are the locus for the induction of pain in a child. We are familiar with the argument that it is a safe ‘locus’ for spanking . However, the anal region is also the major erotic region at precisely the time the child is likely to be beaten there. Thus it is aptly chosen to achieve the result of deranged sexuality in adulthood...” 1971 (p. 113)
David Bakan, Slaughter of the Innocents,1971 (p. 113)
“Advocates of corporal punishment in schools should examine very carefully the weight of evidence now available and, particularly in light of the pornographic component, consider whether they can justify the continuation of a system with such a capacity for exciting unhealthy interest.”
British Psychological Society, “Report on Corporal Punishment in Schools” (1980)
“But what you would not so readily believe upon my affirmation, was that there are persons who are stimulated to venery by strokes of rods, and worked up into a flame of lust by blows... A strange instance what a power the force of education has in grafting inveterate ill habits on our morals...”
Johann Heinrich Meibom, physician, 1629
Unpleasant as this information is, we do our children a great disservice when we fail to acknowledge its truth.
Had we not turned a blind eye to the unpleasant phenomena of clergy abuse of children 40-50 years ago, many children would have been spared its devastating consequences. Peace.
- PDeverit
May 5, 2009 5:26PM
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Visual For " 'Spanking', The Right Way To Do It"
Can someone please produce a non-pornographic photo or video clip of the "Right Way To Do It". A visual aid to teach people the how-to's? Then tell me why you prefer this inherited habit over learning other proven discipline strategies.
For further thought, read the article "NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say " by Lesli Taylor, M.D. and Adah Maurer, Ph. D., as people considered a "safe" locus for the induction of pain in a child.
- PDeverit
May 8, 2009 8:54AM
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Inherited Bad Habit
Child buttock-beating for the purpose of gaining compliance is nothing more than an inherited bad habit.
Its a good idea for people to take a look at what they are doing, and learn how to DISCIPLINE instead of hit.
I think the reason why television shows like "Supernanny" and "Dr. Phil" are so popular is because that is what many (not all) people are trying to do.
There are several reasons why hitting children isn't a good idea. If one doesn't have time to read volumes and volumes of literature on the subject, here are some good, quick reads recommended by professionals:
Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak
The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson
NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say
by Lesli Taylor M.D., and Adah Maurer Ph.D.
- PDeverit
May 22, 2009 9:19PM
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yes it is Acceptable
i disagree with poeple who say it will casue mental issues, it will teach them to hit, and of coarse it doesnt do anything. well i think your wrong because kids who are just yelled at or "talked to sternly" end up being bratty and disrespectful. time outs never work becasue all the parents do is tell them sto do is sit in the corner for 5 min or so. it doesnt teach them anything the time out doesnt stick to the child like a spanking would. no i do agree that hitting anywhere else but them butt or mouth is wrong and the use of tools such as paddles belts or such is abusive adn can cause probelms but a little spanking or slapping them in the mouth does not cause them to be disfunctional....
tell me the truth am i wrong or right about this???
- maymay2k12
May 26, 2009 10:21PM
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You're wrong
You aren't correct. Talking sternly, and giving out little punishments does work wonders for many children . Like my friend. Her parents never spanked her, and she always used to stand first in class. She was never rude, and she was my best friend. Unlike my parents, who always used to spank my bottom with a steel ruler. It hurt!
Once I talked rudely to Mom. She gave my bottom a dozen spankings with the same thin & sharp steel ruler my parents use for me and my brother and locked me in the small hot and stuffy room on the terrace for the whole afternoon with just a bottle of water, and no food . That room what barely wide enough for me to lie down, and I was so hot and bored. Plus, it was dark, and there was no one to talk to. I was home in the school holidays then.
Mother let me out only in the evening, after she'd locked me in for about 6-7 hours. Even after that she gave me the choice that:
1. I promise never to talk rudely to anyone, and if I do, I'd be locked in for the WHOLE DAY, plus, of course, the spanking and any other punishment she wishes to give.
2. I be spanked again and be grounded for a week.
- Michelle S
June 5, 2009 11:43AM
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No way! No spanking should be allowed!
I don't think spanking or caning should be allowed at all.
I used to study at a boarding school, where we were punished at the smallest mistakes.
Once at the dinner table, I dropped a plate by mistake. It crashed on the floor and broke. I wasn't allowed to finish my food and was spanked on my bare buttocks by a mistress in front of everyone, in the dining hall itself. It was so embarrassing, and I was made to stand facing the wall exposing my red bottom till the last of the students finished their food and left the room.
After that I had to eat food sitting on the floor for a whole month.
I seriously don't think that this was fair. Dropping a plate is a mistake, and it is innocent. Did I drop it on purpose? Yet I was spanked till I screamed. NOT FAIR!
- Michelle S
June 5, 2009 10:40AM
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spanking acceptable..
I am sixteen years old and I was spanked as a small child. I do not feel resentment, anger, or bitterness of any kind towards my parents because they spanked me. In fact, I feel gratitude. I was spanked only a handful of times as a child, and only for serious offenses. I agree that spanking merely because the parent is exasperated with unruly behavior is a weak method of reigning in said behavior, but spanking in limited doses is very beneficial.
I was spanked once for repeatedly lying to my kindergarten teacher. I didn't like the lunch packed for me so I told her I had no lunch after throwing mine out and then was given a bagel to eat instead. Obviously what I did was terrible: I wasted food day after day and lied to my teachers. I was spanked for this, and the argument that I did not repeat the behavior because I feared to be punished is not strictly true. My parents explained exactly why what I did was wrong, and then I was spanked for it.
To this day, the lessons I learned from being spanked are the strongest. I am a high honor roll student, I have never had a detention in my life, and I have a healthy social life. The only thing brought upon me through spanking is a strong code of morals--not emotional problems.
Overall, there is a definitely a line that should be drawn. I whole-heartedly agree with those who state that spanking for the littlest offense is out of line. Of course it is! But if a child lies, steals, or cheats, it must be made extremely clear that these actions are the worst, and spanking is sometimes the best way to do so.
- hilary93
July 3, 2009 12:04PM
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no.
Spanking is only appropriate for adults =)
- lux113
July 16, 2009 8:26AM
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i never much cared for whipping cream
physical violence as a deterrent seems to only defeat the purpose, and besides once they build up a tolerance it will only lead to enjoyment as an adult.
- isotope
August 13, 2009 12:48AM
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Is Spanking an Acceptable Form of Discipline?
I say yes you have all these so called EXPERTS telling you it does not work.They just don't know the facts but still think they do I got whoopins with belts my son got them and my dad did and all 9 uncle's and countless cousins guess what we all turned out fine and we didn't shoot any schools up either. Aside from a bruise here and there they work and if you ask me that's what is wrong with society welfare and the law need to stay alittle more out of it a whooping is not abuse
- muffmonster36
September 2, 2009 11:16AM
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The Poetry of Spanking
It's interesting isn't it, that when we Google " spanking " we find a list of porn sites and scandals. If that doesn't put the practice of spanking into question, perhaps these poems-- from one who was "spanked"--will:
http://kellysalasin.wordpress.com/category/writing/family-life/spanking /
- Kelly Salasin September 10, 2009 9:15AM
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That didn't describe a spanking.
That described a beating.
- LagerHead
September 14, 2009 9:27AM
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This confuses me.
"We shouldn't spank children because it teaches them to hit."
This stance confuses me. By the same logic governments shouldn't imprison inmates because it teaches them to hold people against their will.
Spanking, when done properly teaches children that all rules have exceptions. And all do. "You can't kill someone, unless he was going to kill you first." and "You can't drive over the speed limit, unless you have a police escort." or "You shouldn't ever walk around with your finger on the trigger of a gun, unless there are known hostiles near by."
just as "You shouldn't hit unless every other option has been exhausted."
A lot of you seem to be confusing senseless beatings with spankings. a spanking in scenario goes like this.
Now Johny, I told you not to throw the ball in the house.
I know dad.
I grounded you for it
I know
I warned you that you would break something
I know
and now you've broken your grandma's lamp.
I know.
Grab your ankles.
a beating goes
What the hell Johny
It was an accident!
*Dad proceeds to beat the tar out of Johny.*
A spanking is done in a clear, level headed manner. The spankee understands the punishment, and what they did to deserve it. The spanker has explained to the child why they are getting the punishment, or will explain after they have gotten the attention of the child.
A spanking has a limited, pre-decided limit of lickings the parent will give to the child, and the strength of the blows is also controlled. A beating goes until the parent is tired.
Growing up I received spankings and a single beating. The spankings helped reinforce that I for sure shouldn't do something unless it is worth it, and the beating... I had that coming. Big time.
I still remember the beating. I was just going into puberty and had picked a fight with my step dad. I started to hit him and when he finally hit me back I made a sneer and told him I was off to call CPS on him. I still don't know where mom came from, or where she got that belt, but I sure got straitened out by that. The belt was a cheap plastic one, and cut me all over my back and arms. The cuts hurt and helped me to think about what I had done. For about a month.
now many years latter I'm great friends with my step dad. I realized that I was rebelling against him because he wasn't my real dad, but I've grown very distant from my real dad, as I've started to realize, he just never really cared all that much.
I'll finish with a summary of this. Spankings, and even beatings are just another set of tools in the parents tool box. If you took away a tool from a mechanic there's a good chance he wont get the job done right, just as if you take a tool away from a parent there is a chance that they also wont get the job done right. In a good case they won't have to use them too often, as was my case. In a great case they wont ever have to use them at all. If you never need to spank your child then great. If spanking is ineffective don't use it. If that's all they'll respond to I recommend a plastic belt.
- Nivarion
September 30, 2009 1:02AM
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mother
Spanking is against the law in Denmark. Spock wrote a book on how to care for children without hitting them.or angrilyy screaming which psychologically injure the child for life, drug use , over eating and frigidity..The English invented hitting and screaming as a child rearing method, and America copied it from them. Danish stand back and permit the child everything. The Dutch do nothing when their children cry, but stand in respect.
- bartolomeo7
October 8, 2009 11:06AM
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Spanking is Deviant
The act of spanking actually contributes to sexual promiscuity and deviancy in later life. The buttucks is an errogenous zone, a child's "private part". It's not only barbaric and a bad example on how one should deal when frustrated, it's emotionally and pschologically damaging to your child's present and future well-being.
I would like to ask the people who support spanking if they are talking about a gentle swat or a beating because their is a range of damage that can be done to a child. The former is less psychological damage and the latter is extreme with sociopathic, psychopathic, anti-social, personality disorder with sexual deviancy.
- jwils523
October 8, 2009 5:10PM
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