You have probably heard the expression, "Spare the rod, spoil the child." Do you agree with it? Perhaps you were spanked as a kid. Was it appropriate? Some people see spanking as an outdated method of punishment or even child abuse, while others view a swat on the bottom as a parent's prerogative. Where do we draw the line when it comes to disciplining our children?
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Is it just me or was there no evidence to support his case in that piece of "expert" opinion? I'm not saying he's not an expert, but his status as such doesn't mean he can make unsupported claims. He summarizes the opponent's ideas and calls them hogwash. The end. This is not any sort of start to a debate.
- Doublecheck
September 18, 2008 5:36PM
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Agreed. It is not any way to start a debate. Where is the evidence? I have read some summaries posted by another poster, but most of it was from a religious standpoint and so it was biased.
- UltraConservative November 16, 2008 6:14PM
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Hello, I am writing a paper on opposing views and I have decided to go with rather or not to spank your child is right. As I was reeading your part of the debate, i got really confused because because it doesnt make sense. It doesnt make sense where you say that spanking may be right? You state in the middle of your comment "that the might is right" and that is very confusing because it doesnt make sense and just in general your conment is hard to read.
Thank You
Jackson015
- Jackson015 November 16, 2008 5:17PM
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If your child is afraid of being spanked because youve done it to them before then they will obey you because theyre afraid to be spanked. "Fear is the greatest motivator"
- mattbertrams January 12, 2009 11:33AM
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The person a child becomes is not only determined on whether the child was spanked or not. Just because a child was spanked doesn't mean he will be scarred, violent, and pathetically confused. Also, just because a child wasn't spanked doesn't mean he will be a saint either. Other aspects of parenting determine the person a child grows up to be, not just the form of discipline.
- krispy January 23, 2009 10:49PM
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Most children, even preschoolers, are being taught to speak different languages such as Spanish and French in our world today. I think this makes kids capable of telling the difference between a pat on the rear for doing something bad and a display of affection. By gently discipling children, the parents will show their children what are "no-no's" without mentally damaging their reasoning skills and without smudging the line between abuse and affecton.
- Edgin7 January 25, 2009 9:36PM
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While the people who advocate spankers for God's purpose may not be a strong argue, those who are against spanking also require more depth to their argument, as stated. While spankers may say that this is child abuse, what will become child abuse next? Could a parent using a scare tactic to stop their child from touching a hot stove be considered mental abuse? This idea that cause and effect does not work is absurd since mostly everything one does is governed by what rewards or punishments they receive. Spanking is simply a punishment like taking away car keys or sitting in time out.
- Shay February 9, 2009 9:29PM
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" spanking " "a swat" " a pat on the rear" are all terms for beating a child into submission. We treat animals better. A child who is capable of making the cognitive connection between being hit and what he/she had done to "earn" the hit is capable of being spoken to in a reasonable manner and told why behaviors are unacceptable. A child who is not capable of making that connection is too young to benefit from that type of punishment and should be gently redirected. Beating your child is not the same as taking away a privledge. What ever religion you may ascribe to, there is no justification for violence to another human being.
- Donaverde April 6, 2009 5:13PM
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If it is banned, then why does every state in the United States have laws saying that it is legal? Another posted posted the laws under another thread.
- UltraConservative November 16, 2008 6:16PM
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Argumentum ad homenem, argumentum ad populem, and appeal to ridicule, three fallacies in such a short piece of writing. Perhaps, if the "expert" form the misnamed "Center for Effective Discipline" could make a reasoned, logical argument, it might be a more "effective" organization. As it is, all I see is hysteria-mongering.
- rdamurphy January 8, 2009 7:46AM
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It does not take objective evidence for an attached and bonded mother to know with great certainty that hitting her child is in no way natural, appropriate, or effective. Suggesting that spanking is a viable form of punishment simply because the human race has been practicing it for centuries is ridiculous. Man has perpetuated atrocities for all of time such as racism, classism, bigotry of all kinds. Does Mr. Rosemond condone these prejudices? It is this resistance to ideological evolution that will be the demise of mankind.
- Corrina621 August 9, 2008 2:24PM
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Socially, pretty sure we're devolving. More child abuse is going on, more women beating, more divorces, more murders, etc. Science (by the law of entropy) says we are getting worse.
(also, why didn't you mention with atrocities things like killing millions of Jews, allowing for dictators to kill milssions of people, etc.? Why are the "atrocities" you mentioned mental and psychological things? Isn't an atrocity a physical act of evil-doing?)
- reb412 August 30, 2008 9:11PM
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Actually where I live in Canada, I just saw in the paper that in 2008 compared with 2007 to date, that while homicide is up slightly, all other crimes such as sex crimes, car thefts both actual and attempted and break and enters are down substantially. Also, no police officer in this city of 700,000 has died in the line of duty since 1970 and there have been no school shootings since corporal punishment left the schools in 1983. Around here, it appears we are on the dawn of correction.
- edwin p
August 31, 2008 6:45PM
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I'm moving to where you live. :-)
That's an amazing statistic. Do you live in west Canada?
- reb412 August 31, 2008 7:36PM
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Yes, I'm from Western Canada, Winnipeg, Manitoba to be exact-ONE GREAT CITY & GATEWAY TO THE GOLDEN WEST!
- edwin p August 31, 2008 7:45PM
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I 've been out that way once in my life and loved it (I don't like eastern Canada).
- reb412 August 31, 2008 8:36PM
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Since corporal punishment left the schools, has it also left the homes? At least domestic corporal punishment is still allowed in Canada. You can't be sure just like you cannot possibly link school corporal punishment to school shootings. That'll be on the vague side.
You never can tell, maybe parents/guardians are just being better parents by giving their children the required discipline.
- daughterofgoodluck August 31, 2008 10:26PM
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Corporal Punishment is still in Canadian homes but as of the Supreme Court of Canada decision in 2004, it is very restricted. Only children from 2 to 12 can be spanked. Only an open hand can be used, absolutely no foreign objects and no hitting on the face or head. It must also be of a reasonable remedial nature and not done in anger. There is a Bill pending in Parliament to ban all corporal punishment but it appears that we are about to go into an election as we have a minority Government and in that case it will die on the order paper. Let's hope it will be reintroduced by whatever Government takes over if an election should occur which will probably be mid October. WE OWE IT TO THE CHILDREN OF CANADA TO SEE THAT THEY ARE PROTECTED FROM ALL ACTS OF VIOLENCE!
- edwin p September 1, 2008 3:37PM
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Yes I know very much about the 2 to 12 age-limit existing in Canada and all but the bottom line is that spanking is still allowed. Parents can still spank and they sure still do. Besides, that age-group is the one most commonly exposed to corporal punishment and in addition, the one in which the effectiveness of corporal punishment is mostly relevant, so what's the point in extending it further. All the same, there's no direct correlation between restriction (and even prohibition) and limitation of use by parents.
Also, when they say hitting on the face or head or hitting IN ANGER, that transcends the scope of a corrective spanking by far. It has become a case of VIOLENT hitting to let out emotions. If I spank my child, then that'll be a corrective punishment and not violence. Let me make it clear here that all forms of discipline, as sweet as they may sound, can become as violent as ever once anger accompanies the administration. Talk about time-out, we've seen children in our hospital with dislocated arms after the parent angrily picks up the child for a time-out. Is that not an act of violence, without even raising a finger to spank?
- daughterofgoodluck September 1, 2008 11:04PM
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Agreed. How can you link the two but by supposition? Just because school shootings have been down because of corporal punishment gone from the schools does not mean that is why it went down. Here in America, Corporal punishment went out of the Public Schools in Colorado when I was in 6th grade. That was 30 some years ago. It has not helped.
- UltraConservative November 16, 2008 6:21PM
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I don't believe we are getting instinctually or mentally worse. We make advances everyday in a myriad of fields. One thing that could explain many of those statistics are that we have more tools to do harm with now and with more outlets than ever before. Take WWI. There were so many advances in technology and weaponry that our weapons became more destructive, but we kept our same old wartime tendencies. That's why casualties were so high in that war. Our ways will never change, the sooner we realize that, the better. Our tools will change however, that's the "problem".
- GettinGwap January 29, 2009 1:55AM
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Sorry John but history is no guide as to what is right and wrong. At one time it was OK for husbands to whip wives,masters to whip servants,jailers to whip prisoners and officers to whip enlisted military men. Today, such practices are illegal and for good reason,it is cruel and inhuman. Why should children be any different? In fact a child's body is more prone to injury than an adult's. We have access to information on less violent ways to raise children, more than in any other age so we are without excuse like our forefathers were. It's high time we retired the rod and started following these new and less violent ways.
- edwin p August 24, 2008 1:18PM
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Actually I would disagree with "more than any other age." Morally speaking, mankind is degrading not getting better. We are not getting smarter, or more educated. We live in a time when the illiteracy rate is at its highest. People have always known other ways to discipline. It is whether or not people choose to use it.
- UltraConservative November 16, 2008 6:24PM
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"why have human parents been spanking children for longer than history records?"
How can you know anything about what happened before recorded history?
- nevermath October 4, 2008 1:01PM
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The reason the publishing industry, and therefore "educated" liberal society is opposed to spanking is because telling people in general to hit or spank a child is a liability. As a matter of public health policy you'd have to be against giving such advice, because of the cases where it's overused are a great cost to society (litigation, health, and child developmental costs).
But this is entirely beside the point of whether or not spanking a child actually is harmful or helpful. I personally believe it can be helpful when done sparingly and within a loving relationship that spends adequate time with the child on all occasions, not just those involving punishment.
Since there will always be a large number of overbearing parents that tend to harm their children in society, combined with the fact that these days people spend less time with their kids and not more, then policy should definitely not inform society to spank kids. The alternative, which is raising kids poorly and sending them to prisons 16 years down the line is much cheaper in the short term. Therefore science may not ever get a chance to be heard on this topic because society feels it has already "evolved" passed the question.
- harpoon November 18, 2008 12:50PM
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I would feel I failed as a parent if I resorted to physical discipline . I could never be convinced that a child who is 'slapped' or worse by his loving parent does not feel smaller and disrespected. I don't believe I am a hysterical individual because I don't believe in spanking . I just feel very strongly that children need to be treated with respect. When a child disobeys mildly or severely, he should be mildly or severely disciplined. Removing a favorite toy for a day or an evening can be very effective for some children. There are so many effective ways that work so much better than spanking. What parent hasn't had a fleeting desire to leave the house and lock the door behind? Children can be a trial at times, but so can parents. And what if spanking leaves bruises? Child abuse professionals spend a good deal of time studying various bruise patterns and the particular forms of abuse that caused them. The spanking excuse doesn't always fly.
- stngray April 27, 2009 6:58PM
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Children were hit throughout most of human history by whoever was stronger just as slaves and other vulnerable adults did.
Our violent human past (let alone present) is hardly a reason to continue hitting anyone if reason, science, true Christianty (following the actual teachings of Christ) and a growing respect of human rights shows us these things are harmful, unnecessary, and thus wrong to do.
At least Rosemond seems to know that the New Testament does not teach anyone to hit anyone. That's a start.
Not only does the "state" in the US not prevent parents from hitting children's buttocks, it actually performs routine ritual abuse itself with public school paddling in 21 states.
I guess Rosemond was joking when he said he hid his fetishes enough to pass as "normal," but many Christians hold deep dark fetishes related to spanking. I believe "Promise Keepers" found some 65% of church men attending had hidden problems with porno.
Its time to end the sick abuse.
- Jeff Charles July 26, 2008 4:16PM
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Rosemond commits the "Traditional Wisdom" Fallacy in his post, something every first year college student should know not to do. He assumes that because something has been done for a long time, it must be good. If that were true, then slavery, wars of conquest, and no votes for women would also have to be good things.
He also points out that he was spanked and turned out alright, as if that showed that spanking is not harmful. By that reasoning, if someone drives home drunk and doesn't have an accident, it would have been shown that driving drunk is not harmful.
Lastly, he blames lack of spanking for violence in society despite the fact that all the evidence shows the correlation runs the other way - that kids from spanking households are much more likely to be violent adults.
- Greg1 August 7, 2008 6:29AM
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I'm 42 years old. I grew up in a home where my mother spanked me. When she did spank me I knew why.
I believe as long as spanking is done with the right attitude and love we cannot go wrong.
Correcting a child out of anger is when it becomes wrong.
Love is correction.
I'm in constant contact with family and friends who do not correct by spanking their children and their children are very disrespectful to others including adults.
Taking their favorite toy, game, or time away with friends does not always work. That has been proven.
- kim42 August 27, 2008 8:35AM
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Is spanking 100% effective? If we are honest, we would have to say no. I read where a retired school principal at one time used corporal punishment. Towards the end of his career, he had given up using it. Why? Because the same people were coming back to his office again and again and he realized that it just wasn't working. There is no place you can hit on the body without running the risk of injury. To a child there is no loving in a spanking, all spanking even if the parent is supposedly doing it in love causes pain and creates a bad impression in the mind of a child.If an adult does wrong, we cannot spank them for it. Why should children be any different? There are non violent ways of correcting out there. While they may not work all the time, they do work most of the time. Please give them a fair chance. If one doesn't succeed, try another. We have electric lights today because Thomas Edison failed 1000 times but never gave up until he discovered a light bulb that worked.
- edwin p August 27, 2008 1:57PM
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There is no form of discipline that is 100% effective. If it were, then just telling your child no and why no, would work. However, each child is different, they have different personalities, and are their own individual person. If you tell a child the first time no, and they do it any way, What then? "Now son, I told you not to do that. I see we have a problem here, lets sit down and discuss this a while. Do you know what you did that was wrong?" That may work the first time, but what about the second time? "Son, now this is twice I have told you not to do that. This is becoming a habbit and we have got to deal with this..." Or what about the 3rd, 4th, 5th time? See where this is going? When I tell my son no, and he does it any way, the first time he gets lectured as to why not to do it. The second time, he gets restricted from his computer, the third, well, he gets a swat. 9 times out of 10, the swat works where the lectured did not. However, not all things that they do wrong merrit a spanking . For example, you do not spank a child for getting into the cookie jar before supper. That is senseless. However, on the other hand, when the child is blatently defiant, such as, "No, I am not going to do it, and you cannot make me." that is a different story. One swat on the padded parts will not kill them, nor will it injure their mind for life. It will however, let them know that disrespect will not be tollerated.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 10:14PM
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I know people who spanked their kids and those kids grew up to be horrible mean people. I also know people who didn't spank their kids, and the children turned out to be respectful, well adjusted people.
- illusion June 10, 2009 7:33PM
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Slavery also existed for centuries. So did racism, prejudice, and public executions. Hell, before indoor plumbing, "going to the bathroom" meant "squatting over a hole in the ground and ignoring the overwhelming stench". Does this justify suicide as an effective form of anti-depressant? I'm quite suicide has been along for a while ("Romeo and Juliet", anyone?)
What I'm trying to say is: just because people have been doing it for a long time, doesn't mean its right. People have been wrong before.
- NCHammer326 September 2, 2008 8:27PM
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Children often continue to love their parents regardless how much abuse they experience while growing up. The question is, if spanking is not necessary... why do it? What or who's needs are being served by spanking?
- rose September 15, 2008 1:48PM
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It's true that John Rosemond has only a master's degree. Therefore he shouldn't be called "Dr" or honored with the title PhD. He also shouldn't call himself "family psychologist" because you have to have a PhD to be considered a psychologist. John Rosemond simply isn't on the same educational or professional level as those he chooses to disagree with. He's got a 37 year old master's degree (from a time when very little was known about psychology) and this degree is from a lesser university. And that's it.
It's time for everyone to realize that John Rosemond is no expert. It must be very embarrassing to real psychologists that Rosemond claims he is one!
- SojournerTruth August 8, 2008 5:47PM
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I've seen abused children who were raped, beaten, and neglected turn to a parent and open up their arms with love and hopes of getting affection. They still want to be loved. The scars of abuse may fade away and some will go on to be very stable and happy people. What that proves is not that abuse is right. It proves that some people are quite resilient. Similarly a spanked child not hating their parents isn't proof that spanking was justified, necessary or appropriate. The loving and resilient nature of some children isn't an excuse to use corporal punishment. The reality is that it is not necessary to make children suffer to raise them to be loving, healthy, happy people - in fact it is easier to do so with kindness.
- barbz September 16, 2008 1:44PM
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I was spanked as a child and in the right context children can learn respect through it. If you need to spank daily however you need to find a new form of discipline cause its not working.
The average parent doesn't want to hurt their children, they want to teach them. If you're into spanking to hurt your children, thats child abuse. In my memory I only remembered actually getting spanked twice but it was more an emotional memory than a physical one. At most 3 slaps on the butt and I learned my lesson.
Parents need to find what works for them and their children. For example, I babysit an autistic boy. He doesn't respond to much except being removed from the situation. Scream at the top of your lungs all you want, he won't bat an eye. Hold his hands behind his back for a few seconds and he freaks out. Everything needs to be physical or it doesn't register.
- EAnthes December 9, 2008 3:58PM
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Most compelling of all reasons not to spank are the following (which can be verified by people who were actually spanked themselves by doing a little internet research):
Even without sexual motives on the part of the punisher, spanking can interfere with a child’s normal sexual and psychological development. Because the buttocks are so close to the genitals and so multiply linked to sexual nerve centers, slapping them can trigger powerful and involuntary sensations of sexual pleasure. This can happen even in very young children , and even in spite of great, clearly upsetting pain.
Tom Johnson Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
“Advocates of corporal punishment in schools should examine very carefully the weight of evidence now available and, particularly in light of the pornographic component, consider whether they can justify the continuation of a system with such a capacity for exciting unhealthy interest.”
British Psychological Society, “Report on Corporal Punishment in Schools” (1980)
“But what you would not so readily believe upon my affirmation, was that there are persons who are stimulated to venery by strokes of rods, and worked up into a flame of lust by blows... A strange instance what a power the force of education has in grafting inveterate ill habits on our morals...”
Johann Heinrich Meibom, physician, 1629
Unpleasant as this information is, we do our children a great disservice when we fail to acknowledge its truth.
Had we not turned a blind eye to the unpleasant phenomena of clergy abuse of children 20-30 years ago, many children would have been spared its devastating consequences. Peace.
- PDeverit May 5, 2009 5:39PM
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Rosemond dismisses all the research that faults spanking with a wave of his hand, saying the researchers are biased or by labeling them as "liberal" or "ersatz." Yet Dr. Elizabeth Gersoff, a highly respected professor at the University of MIchigan, has published, in a respected peer-reviewed scientific journal, a "meta-analysis" of spanking studies. This is an analysis of hundreds of previously published research studies on the topic, done to see if there is a coherent, conclusionary finding. The answer, the research does indeed show harm from spanking. Here is the evidence: Gershoff, E.T. (2002). Parental corporal punishment and associated child behaviors and experiences: A meta-analytic and theoretical review. Psychological Bulletin, Vol. 128, p539-579. Game over. The most solid studies out there are consistent, we should not be hitting kids, ever.
- Dr Robert Fathman August 1, 2008 6:36AM
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The vast majority of research shows serious problems associated with hitting children, especially increased aggression and anti-social behavior.
Dr. Straus is a very principled researcher who has studied the effects of corporal punishment on tens of thousands of children. Check out his website at the University of New Hampshire at Durham if you doubt his integrity. There are many other fine researchers as well, such as Dr. Harriet McMillan, Dr. Elizabeth Gershoff, Dr. Roy Herrenkohl, and Dr. Joan Durrant. Here's a study by McMillan Rosemond should look at, entitled "Slapping and spanking in childhood and its association with lifetime prevalence of psychiatric disorders". This study shows increased anxiety and alcohol abuse among teenagers and adults who were physically punished as children. Rosemond, in order to justify his claim of being a psychologist, needs to face the truth of this and other important studies.
- SojournerTruth August 2, 2008 5:37PM
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Rosemond claims that there is no evidence of the negative effects of spanking. Yet every single national pediatric, psycholoical, psychiatric and medical professional association in the entire western world disagrees with him. Don't take my word for it - look up what they say online. Are all these orgnaizations stacked with individuals with idealogical axes to grind? Or might Rosemond have an ideological axe to grind?
- Greg1 August 7, 2008 6:32AM
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Children are very different in many ways. They have different thoughts from us. What they understand and what we understand are totally different. Parents know the reason why they spank their children, but only some higher-ability children will link up the spanking to what they had just done. Some children do not understand, and thus resulting to misunderstandings between the child and the parent, resulting in the child thinking that the parent spanks for nothing, creating a fear for the parents.
Some parents also need to control their feelings when they spank. Some do spank too much. Being an expert debating about accepting spanking children, you do know better how to spank your children and what is enough for the child to understand. Therefore, your observations of your own children may not be reliable. The best way, without taking the risk of the child fearing the parents because he cannot understand why, is to explain to the child that he should not do that, instead of spanking.
- Rainie August 13, 2008 2:10AM
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You are right. It does depend. I have two children and both have been spanked as a means of punishment. Neither of them were ever spanked until they could understand that the spanking was connected with what they did wrong. They are never spanked in anger and never spanked for something they did wrong hours and hours ago. They are also not ever spanked for just any thing they do wrong. I said that to say this, Both of my boys are of the higher ability children that you speak of. My 5 year old functions on the level of a 4th grader and my 7 year old funtions on the level of a 6th grader. I attribute that to the fact that they have the uttermost of my wife and I's attention to them and to the fact that they are taught in a Private School. They have in no way been damaged by the fact that they have been spanked.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 10:20PM
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The problem here is that parents should not leave it up to the child to "link up the spanking to what they had just done." Spanking a child and not telling them why they were just spanked IS confusing and wrong. One does not have to be an expert to know to spank a child, and spanking is not a substitute for explaining what a child did wrong. Any time my father spanked me, he asked, "Do you know why I had to spank you?". Then he would explain what I had done wrong and why he had to punish me. I may not have understood why I was being spanked at first, but after he explained, I not only knew what I had done wrong, I also knew what the consequences of my actions were. If children's minds are capable of understanding why not to do something, they are capable of understanding that spanking is the consequence of their action.
- nclark January 25, 2009 11:30PM
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While I have read the research and am impressed by the very clear connection between corporal punishment and a variety of negative outcomes, the single most compelling evidence against spanking comes from a questions my then three year old asked the first time he witnessed corporal punishment. One day in a museum he saw a parent spank a child and scold them for climbing. He was utterly shocked and made comments for the rest of the day. "How could that mama hit her baby?" "why wouldn't she just explain to him what he did wrong?" "parents aren't supposed to hurt their kids" "that mommy was mad and she should have taken a break, she made a mistake".
So much for kids not seeing spanking as a form of hitting. It was entirely clear to our son that hitting is hitting. It is mistaken, lazy parenting and kids deserve better.
- barbz September 16, 2008 1:26PM
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Do you feel you have more information on the subject than just a few mentioned here? Personally, I am curious as to why you feel the need to safegaurd such a bad habit?
American Acadamy of Pediatrics
Straus,Murray Co-Director of the
Family Research Laboratory at the
University of New Hampshire
UNESCO
Alvin Poussaint, M.D., Professor of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School. From "Spanking Strikes Out" , 1999.
The United Nations (Convention on
the Rights of the Child)
MedHeadlines
Spanking Kids Causes Sexual
Problems, February 29, 2008
Greven,Philip,Professor at
Rutgers University,Aggression and
Delinquency,(1990),
Global Initiative to End All
Corporal Punishment of Children
To name just a few
- PDeverit May 5, 2009 5:38PM
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If you had taken the time to read what Rosemond writes, cites, and condones/admonishes in his writing (books), then you would notice that there are accompanying citations (they site research and studies that have been done)... that's firstly. That refutes the baseless claim of lack of facts and/or verifiable experience from which to draw. Secondly -- and again, something that would have been understood had you taken the time to check out what you were disagreeing with before actually stating that it was flawed-- is that he does not specifically condone spanking . He views it as a viable child-rearing tool, but one that should be reserved for specific cases where you need to get the child's attention as they are losing control. (Tantrum, etc) Also that is caveated with a general-type guideline for use, stating that once a child is four or older, it theoretically shouldn't be happening much more than once a month. He specifically argues the widely-accepted belief that spanking is a child-rearing philosophy in and of itself. He examines the Biblical teaching that addresses sparing the rod and comes to the (well-researched) conclusion that the rod does NOT in fact refer to physically punishing the child. Next time, I would highly advise checking out your facts before making such an uninformed claim. -Maria
- etomaria January 20, 2009 10:00PM
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*He specifically argues *against* the widely-accepted belief that spanking is a child-rearing philosophy in and of itself...
I accidently put "argues", which makes it sound like he advocates it. Just for clarification.
- etomaria January 20, 2009 10:37PM
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Oh dear. Arguing from the Bible is an immediate sign to me that there will be little evidence and much dogma in your position. The Bible also promotes stoning children to death for cursing their parents, amongst other savoury practices.
- bpdlr
July 24, 2008 3:42AM
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The Bible does not PROMOTE stoning children. Try again.
- reb412 August 30, 2008 10:38AM
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The classic reference which seems to be interpreted by some as promoting the stoning of children, is not completely clear about the age of the "son" mentioned. In all versions it specifically mentions the "son" eating too much and being a drunk. I will leave it to others to decide on this verses meaning.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
Actually Deuteronomy is a mine field of stoning sons and daughters to death but again does not seem to relate the age of these people.
- Musfuut October 26, 2008 3:29AM
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"Do I need to tell you what they’ve all told me? I didn’t think so." Um, actually, some evidence would be helpful.
- bpdlr July 24, 2008 3:44AM
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John Rosemond says that the rod in the Bible is symbolic rather than literal. I agree with him on that.If that is the case then why does he even think about hitting children when there is no Scriptural justification for it. He is following tradition rather than the Bible and tradition is not reliable.
- edwin p August 13, 2008 9:54AM
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So if it's symbolic.....what is it symbolizing?
- reb412 August 30, 2008 10:37AM
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In answer to your question, the Rod as described in the Book of Proverbs stands for authority, not hitting. The word discipline comes from the same word disciple and means teaching. As a result, using the Rod means teaching as in pointing to lessons on a wall much like a teacher in a classroom. We must remember that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, not English originally. Unlike the English Language, the Hebrew Language uses a lot of symbols, metaphors and figures of speech to describe things and therefore it must not always be taken literally in the same way as the English Language. When we try to interpret things in the way English does, we often arrive at the wrong conclusions. This is something we must remember if we want to gain a proper understanding of the Bible.
- edwin p August 30, 2008 11:30AM
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That's interesting because I know Hebrew. And the word is literally "tree branch" which is mentioned almost 200 times in most texts (with different synonyms, like "tribe" or "group" of course). Only a handful of times is it mentioned metaphorically (i.e. Ge 49.10 mentions it as a position of authority). But in context, in whatever language, "sparing the stick" doesn't metaphorically translate well "sparing the authority". Or whatever other word you can think of. It's obviously talking about something physical.
Pr 23.14 makes it pretty clear:
"You shall beat him with the rod, and shall deliver his soul from sheol."
You're right, Hebrew definitely has some expressionist metaphors, hebrewism, etc. but this is not one of those times.
- reb412 August 30, 2008 11:45AM
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The interpretation that the Rod refers to pointing to lessons on the wall was obtained by me from a quote by a Jewish Rabbi from Pennsylvania by the name of Larry Kaplan. Being a Rabbi, I'm quite sure that he would be familiar with OT Hebrew and customs. Also, to beat doesn't necessarily mean to hit. When the sun is beating down on a roof, is it striking it with a rod? No, it is shining down on it. In the same way, beating with a rod means coming across to your children in such a way that they will have no trouble paying attention to you and understanding what you have to say. By the way, were you aware that in Israel where the Sabbath is still faithfully observed, all corporal punishment of children is against the law?
- edwin p August 31, 2008 7:00PM
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Yes "beating" can mean different things in English but as you mentioned before....the OT was written in Hebrew....and the word "beating" in English is the translation of a Hebrew word that COULD NOT be used with "the sun was beating down". Seriously. In other English translations, it's translated as "smite", "strike", etc. In my two different Spanish Bible translations, it's "castigarás con vara" and "herirás con vara" which is unmistakable. The Hebrew word is clear (so are all the other translations, frankly).
I'm not familiar with this rabbi but would question him on it (especially depending on what type of rabbi he is). Many of the rabbis I know don't believe the Old Testament holds any authoritative value to them and thus their interpretations are severely slanted (and usually have an agenda).
I'm glad you quoted a rabbi though. :-) It's more scholarly than what some of these people on this site have been doing..
Also, I didn't know that about Israel, thanks for pointing that out. Interesting.
- reb412 August 31, 2008 7:33PM
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Let's look at the verse in context:
Proverbs 23:13
"Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die."
How many parents would be concerned with their children DYING from being talked to or given a time out? Obviously, this is talking about physical beating if he is discussing the physical outcome. Notice, however, that the child will NOT die from being beaten with a rod. The purpose of these verses is to tell parents that causing a child physical pain early on in life is a small price if it makes him a better person and saves his soul.
- nclark January 25, 2009 9:32PM
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That is completely correct. Sometimes people take issues what out of porportion. They need to realize that many arguments are not literal - if fact the Bible has tons of parables, metaphors, and similies. There are actually quite a few examples in Luke 6 and 7.
- Edgin7 February 12, 2009 2:07PM
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The Old Testament is full of laws and traditions not practiced by modern Christians. Why are defenders of spanking zeroing in on this one portion? Why do you pick and choose which sections of the Bible are mandatory and which ones aren't? Christ said he has a better way than an eye for an eye. Why don't you believe Him?
The Bible is not a valid arguement for striking a child.
- crunchymom September 18, 2008 4:06AM
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If you say that and I quote "The Bible is not a valid argument for striking a child." Then that leads me to conclude that you do not believe that God has a valid argument and should not be respected as much as a human being as far as opinions are concerned. Therefore I'm not sure how much respect I can have for your opinions if you don't have any respect for my Creator's. However, I am not one to pick and choose I follow simply the new testament and the portions of the old testament mentioned in the New Testament as still valid. I do this because of the book of Hebrews where it talks of the old covenant being done away with and the new one taking its place.
- eJones January 25, 2009 10:20PM
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Is Spanking an Acceptable Form of Discipline?
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Spanking is harmful to children
Parents are role models for childrens behavior. When we cuss, children learn to curse, when we hit, slap or spank, children learn to hit. Spanking is a violent act. Spanking with belts, paddles or extension cords is clearly child abuse.
It is far better to be a good role model and to talk firmly to your children about what behavior is expected. Use time-outs, denial of TV, outside activities, etc. to make your point.
See www.nospankingzone.org People Opposed to Paddling Students, Houston
- Jimmy Dunne
July 25, 2008 8:33AM
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thats whats wrong with kids today
a good spanking on the rump is what most kids need. thats why they have no respect for anybody these days.when most of us adults remember when we were young and got out of control we would be turned over on our parents lap and our rump beat into jelly .and we had respect .but over the years people started going to far with it and started being to violent and thats when the line was drawn.but was drawn in a wrong way.now if you look at a kid wrong you will get locked up and thats not right that just gave the kids the run of the roost.and thats whats wrong with them today (giving kids control)i think if a kid gets out of control a parent should turn them over on their lap and give them a old fashion spanking on the rump.and if they go to far with it .send them to prison for a while.not make other parents cut out spankings so their kids can get out of control.
- blah
December 11, 2008 7:38PM
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Spanking does NOT bring respect
Spanking children does not bring respect for the parent, it brings anger, hatred and fear. It shows that the parent is out of control and is resorting to hitting a small defenseless child. People are not for hitting and children are people too. Discipline should be for teaching, not for punishment. Let the child know what you approve and disapprove of and they will want your approval.
Jimmy Dunne, People Opposed to Paddling Students, Houston 281.584.9707 see www.nospankingzone.org
- Jimmy Dunne
December 12, 2008 8:20AM
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I was spanked..and I respect my parents.
I was spanked until I turned 15 years old. If I did something wrong, I knew that I was going to get a spanking for it and most of the time that was the only reason I refrained. All children are different. Some children benefit from spanking, and others don't. My sister was spanked as a child, and it did her no good, because she was always stubborn and wasn't afraid of the pain. So therefore, my parents had other ways of punishing her. But for me, it worked. I did respect my parents for it, because they were always very clear about what they expected from me, and I knew what would happen if I did something wrong. Therefore, I still respected them for it. I may not have liked it when I was younger, but I did not hate my parents for it. Like I said, it may not work for certain children, but time-outs don't work for certain children either. In time-out, most creative children would entertain themselves, even if there was absolutely nothing in the room that was entertaining. The responsibility falls on individual parents. It is NOT abuse, if you do not hurt the child to the point of bruises or scarring.
- bellajames
April 13, 2009 3:00PM
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Spanking isn't meant to bring respect
Not every action a parent takes is meant to engeander respect. I do believe that spanking a child out of anger and frustration is abuse, not discipline .
- Russell Fine
May 23, 2009 11:18AM
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Spanking does NOT bring respect
SEE you got it figured out it is all in how you deliver that spanking that matter's I think I got plenty growing and my son as well.You can't act like a enraged idiot while dealing with kids but you put best I think.
- muffmonster36
September 2, 2009 11:36AM
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Out of love
Yes a parent should not ever spank out of anger or frustration.The problem today is the two parent are out to work and there is no discipline in the homes
My wife stayed at home and I went to work outside of the home.When I got home that was the time the children got there spankings after a talken to.
- countryboy
September 3, 2009 2:23PM
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Spanking does NOT bring respect
I think your dead wrong evryone in my family as far as I can remeber has gotten whippings and we are all good folk's never shot a school up or co- workers and we are hard working and god fearing people.It is the lack of punishment that is the problem with kids now aday's so look's to me like your wrong!!!
- muffmonster36
September 2, 2009 11:31AM
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Model Parents "Beat Child's Rump To Jelly"
Hang on everyone,
-forget people with model children who have never raised a hand to them
-forget those who turn around the behavoir of troubled youth without violence
-forget those who have spent years and years studying family life
-and move over Dr. Phil and Supernanny,
We've got some winning advice right here!
- PDeverit
May 6, 2009 10:06PM
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Define Harmful...
Mr. Dunne,
I am one of seven children the youngest of which is 43 years old. We were all spanked. Examples include (but are not limited to) the following: hands, hot-wheel tracks, piece of oak baseboard, switches and belts.
Your argument indicates there was long term harm done to us but I don't see it. We have the following accomplishments between us, 1 MBA, 4 Bachelor of Science degrees, 6 Associate Degrees, 7 High School diplomas. There are also 22 children in the 6 marriages and 3 of us have been married over 25 years. None of us have been in prison or convicted of a felony. There is no child abuse in any of the families and there are only 2 children of the 22 that have serious issues. Those children were adopted from the County from a mother who used cocaine and alcohol during the pregnancy (Look up Fetal Alcohol Syndrome).
Specifically what harm is done? From my experience spanking works for a time, and properly applied does not harm the child but actually gives them boundaries. Should spanking be used with all children. Absolutely not. Each child is different and some things that work on one do not work on others. Spanking is a last resort punishment that should not be used lightly. Being consistent is what counts. There is also a point where spanking becomes insulting to the child and at that point it loses it's effectiveness. Every child is different and the age where spanking stops is extremely variable.
And don't give me the argument that there are always exceptions. Your statements do not support that.
- TheCatholicHeretic
June 16, 2009 3:50PM
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Yes
It most definitely helped me as a child. Time-outs, denial of TV etc. etc. did nothing to change my ways. But a good spanking (with or without belt) told me exactly how to behave. Now their is a difference between spanking and slapping, just as there is a difference between spanking and beating. A spanking is good and effective while a beating or slapping is obviously child abuse.
- Dylandts
August 13, 2009 8:33PM
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Yes
OOORAH....Leave it to a fellow Marine to say it best....EVERYONE should read this because you said it best......
- muffmonster36
September 2, 2009 11:40AM
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Yes it is
A Spanking set me straght a time or two.Not spanking and letting your child go wild is more like child abuse.
- countryboy
September 3, 2009 2:07PM
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Is Spanking an Acceptable Form of Discipline?
I thinlk your wrong!!!!!I got plenty of whoopin's with belt's my son did and my uncle's 9 of them and my dad did and a handful of cousin's NONE of my family are law breaker's we all work hard do right for the most part and myself and several other's are or were in the Marines(not perfect but good people)AND WE NEVER SHOT A SCHOOL UP OR CO WORKER"S and we credit our WHOOPIN"S for our being good people and nobody in my family has ever been arrested for child abuse!!!!
- muffmonster36
September 2, 2009 11:25AM
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Time Out Does Not Work
Spanking is most definitely an acceptable form of punishment. Children do not have the capability of reasoning. After a child is 9 or 10, depending upon their maturity, then reason with them and do not spank any further. DFS (department of family services) invented and advocated "Time Out" and then reversed their decision stating that you were neglecting your children. The fact of the matter is that we had less violence and disrespect back in the day that kids were afraid of getting a butt whooping. I whole heartedly agree with spanking (on the bottom with your hand). I do not agree with smacking your kids around or striking them with foreign objects.
- Gideon From The Dirty Onion
July 25, 2008 11:50AM
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I agree
I would have to agree with you. Time outs are not the way to go. especially if your children enjoy just sitting down and doing nothing. Spanking them is appropriate as long as it is not abusive.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 4:50AM
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From a former spankee
to a certain degree yes. I mean only in situations where the child repeatedly disobeys. for serious things like playing with fire, bullying, stealing etc. And only what a child can take no closed fist or switches or beating for over 10 minutes.
- rchot July 25, 2008 12:19PM
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if its not abuse
when i was little, let me tell you....if i talked back to my mother, was being rude to her face, snotty, etc...i got the ole backhand. of course when youre a child you get upset and yell at your parents and say things like "its not fair...i hate you etc.." my parents hardly ever spanked us when we were little....but if we deserved it, it was usually the back hand to the mouth or a smack on the ass. that was the extent of it. and it happend rarely. now im 24 yrs old and i nanny for 2 kids. let me tell you, i understand why we got the back hand!!! i do not have bad feeling towards my parents. i think they did one heck of a job raising me and my brother. and i understand fully why they felt sometimes they needed to give us a little smack when we were being brats. and we were little! we used to be brats and ill admit it. i think that if parents ONLY use spanking...or are bruising their child with it, then that could be concidered abuse. ill tell you, TIME OUTS and positive reinforcement...
- lanidee02 July 26, 2008 8:41AM
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continued from last post.....
and postive reinforcement DOES not always work. i have been working with children since i was 16. i see alot of spoiled kids who are rude and expect to have what they want when they want it all the time. sometimes i think i good smack in the mouth would set them straight. but they are not my kids and its not my place. there is a line between disceplin and abuse. when i have my own children it will be my choice how to discipline them. and if it means a slap on the butt then its a slap on the butt. but i am aware of the line....and i would never cross it.
- lanidee02 July 26, 2008 8:47AM
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If you can't tell...
If you can't tell spanking from beating, then you should do neither. Spanking is not abuse and likewise, abuse, by definition, is not spanking.
Spanking serves to make the child more uncomfortable for doing the bad act than the bad act gives him joy. If you can achieve this through other means, then go ahead. If you can't, however, then a whack on the backside may be called for. And in the long run, talking to your child or sending him to his room or a chair and getting the same result is sort of idiotic. And it annoys the child. And the people who think that you can't rear young.
I have been reading Rosemond for years and how he and I can agree so fully on child rearing and so completely disagree on our world view always amazes me. However, I am comfortable in saying that you will never find him justifying any position by citing biblical edicts; he may cite it as his own point of view, but he is far too intellectually honest to rely on the Bible to justify his position.
- Llantha
July 27, 2008 9:25AM
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Spanking = Abuse // A world of Bullies & Wimps
1.) A spanking is relative form of punishment - in terms of scale/intensity/degree.
2.) If my mom spanks me for behaving in a fashion that is not acceptable to her, it might not hurt.
3.) If my dad spanked me for behaving in a fashion that is not acceptable to him, it might be a near death experience.
4.) If my parents - who love me and play a major role in influencing me how to behave towards others - spank me when I behave in fashion unacceptable to them, then it must be okay to spank anyone who misbehaves according to me.
5.) I also want to bring up the point that it is against human nature to not want to defend yourself against someone beating the tar out of you. How do you think that screws with an individual's character? Where does that end?
6.) A world full of bullies and wimps.
- One Cylinder July 27, 2008 10:37AM
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Your Logic Falls Apart
Although your logic began reasonable enough, it begins to deteriorate when you factor in the basis that children do not reason as adults do. When children are young, you are not supposed to instill "take a beating and don't defend yourself." Quite the contrary. I have children and they are taught rules and respect in a certain order.
1) Respect and honor their parents.
2) Defend yourself against harm.
3) Defend your family
4) Speak out against unjust or unfair actions against you.
So, I do not teach my children to just "take a beating" as you put it. They are not to raise a hand against their parnets, but all others are fair game. But, as a parent, you also have to respect your children. We are trying to condition them not torture them. Any parent that actually makes it a routine to "beat" their children should be "beat" themselves.
- Gideon From The Dirty Onion
August 19, 2008 7:45AM
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If children can't reason, how does spanking help?
How does hurting a child to keep them from hurting themselves make sense? If children are too young to reason with, then why would spanking make a difference?
Here is your logic:
1. Your parents are always right, even if one of us is being irrational, unfair or trying to teach you something that doesn't make sense to you.
2. Defend yourself against harm, unless we are the ones harming you, because we are your parents and we get to harm you.
3. Defend your family, whether or not we are right.
4. Speak out, except against us, because that is back talk and you will get spanked for it.
There are many ways to teach our children to make correct choices without hurting them to do it.
- crunchymom September 19, 2008 4:12PM
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Illogical and Irrational Response
First of all, if you do not have children, please do not attempt a response. Unless you have children, there is no way you can understand. You may think you can. But you would be wrong.
I love it when people read my responses and cherry pick pieces of it rather that respond to it in its entirety. Let's respond to your points one at a time in a fashion like you did to me.
Your title - If children can't reason, how does spanking help? I know you will blow this way out of proportion and try to use correlations that I am not making against me. But I will proceed with my statement anyway. Cows can't reason, not on our intelligence level. Why do electric fences work then? Because it doesn't take many brain cells to move away from harm.
How does hurting a child to keep them from hurting themselves make sense? You are attempting to make me out as a monster. I would rather pop mu child's hand when they try to touch an electric socket than to tell them, "no no no" and them get shocked to death. Do I choose swatting their hand over hospitalization or death? Most certainly. What would you do?
Logic:
1) What I said: Respect and honor their parents. What you interpreted: Your parents are always right, even if one of us is being irrational, unfair or trying to teach you something that doesn't make sense to you. Response: Yes. At a young child's age, the parent is always right regardless or rationalization. And at the age of 4 and under, most things do not make sense to the child, so yes the kid should listen to their parent. It is their parent's job to teach their child after all.
2) What I said: Defend yourself against harm. What you interpreted: Defend yourself against harm, unless we are the ones harming you, because we are your parents and we get to harm you. Response: Once again you are attempting to overreach the point. Yes, always defend yourself from harm. From Webster - Harm: physical or mental damage. If you are disciplining your child and not beating the living day lights out of them, no harm (injury) should arise. Did you not read my post in its entirety? I said, "But, as a parent, you also have to respect your children. We are trying to condition them not torture them. Any parent that actually makes it a routine to "beat" their children should be "beat" themselves."
3) What I said: Defend your family. What you interpreted: Defend your family, whether or not we are right. Response: Most definitely. I do not care if my wife is wrong or children are wrong. I will never choose a stranger's side over my own family's side. And if you would, I am sorry for your family as you are more concerned with being right than being loyal to those you love.
4) What I said: Speak out against unjust or unfair actions against you. What you interpreted: Speak out, except against us, because that is back talk and you will get spanked for it. Response: Do not stand for injustice against yourself. As a small child, they can not decipher what is unjust and what is just. As they grow older, they will have respect and know how to discuss things they believe to be unfair without being disrespectful. Talking back in a disrespectful way should not be tolerated when the child is very young as you are teaching them behaviors that will only intensify. Speaking out does not mean you have to be disrespectful when doing so.
No, spanking should not be your first or only form of punishment. If it is, you are not trying to teach your children. You are simply trying to submit your children. There is a huge difference between applying a spanking because it is the last resort to curb a negative or harmful behavior and doing so because you do not know any other recourse.
You said, "There are many ways to teach our children to make correct choices without hurting them to do it." Please elaborate on what your suggestions are to help a child (4 and under) to make correct choices about things like not sticking their fingers in a light socket or picking up scissors (or other sharp object). When responding, please refrain from the answer of putting socket covers on the light sockets as this does not teach the child you are simply avoiding the lesson. And thinking that every child in the world will stay away from sharp objects is not plausible, so please refrain from the suggestion of "keep sharp objects away from them." That is obvious, but children have a way of finding things.
- Gideon From The Dirty Onion
September 19, 2008 5:04PM
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I have two children, a 10 month old and 3 year old
So you can throw out that assumption. And they never get spanked. Not even a smack on the hand.
I am making you out as a monster because I think people who spank their children ARE monsters. You just compared your child to a thoughtless cow. OY!
I don't smack my child to keep them from shocking themselves. I put covers on the plugs. Voila. I put gates up to keep my children from dangerous situations. And my three year old, not being a cow, knows what the word "ouch" and "danger" mean. My baby doesn't, hence the gates and plug covers.
You say that prevention doesn't teach a lesson, but neither does spanking , or you wouldn't have to do it. At least my way doesn't exchange one pain for another. "Don't hurt yourself or I will have to hurt you."
1. My children respect me without me forcing it. They respect me because they love me and trust me, not because I inflict pain.
2. There is no such thing as "respectful" pain.
3. Loyalty over safety and rightness? I am afraid of your family. I don't want my children to become enablers for the sake of family loyalty. What a horrible thing to wish on your children. I want my children to be compassionate people with a sense of fairness. I want them to WANT to be a member of the family because our family is a refuge and source of comfort. If a stranger is right and my children are wrong, then this is something we need to work out together. Loyalty above all is how families hide abuse and alcoholism and marital affairs.
4. As you mentioned, very young children are impulsive and can't reason. Spanking, therefor, wouldn't teach a lesson, either. And you can't talk to them. Until they can reason, distraction, and substitution are ideal solutions, because they will not "learn" anything from any form of punishment.
We DO have consequences in our house. If my son spills something, he has to help me clean it up. Voila - a true lesson. When we make a mess, we clean it up. If he throws something, which he is not supposed to do in the house, and it hits the baby, he has to come comfort the baby with me, and then he can't play with that object for the rest of the day - the object gets a time out. If there is a fight during playgroup, then both children sit down with us and we try to compromise - can the toy be shared? Is there a similar toy so that both children can have something? Can there be a trade, one toy for the one you want? And if he hits someone, which happens very rarely, we go home early - play group is over, and hopefully next time we will remember not to hurt, because we don't hurt things.
Dr William Sears, who is against spanking, has a book called The Discipline Book that is all about age appropriate discipline. If you go to this link - http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/T060100.asp - he lists many ways to approach disciplining young children. And he is not permissive -he believes children can and should be disciplined - but in a way that truly creates self governance within a child.
You and I obviously have very different goals for our children. You value obedience above all, I value peace and free thinking above total obedience. But I firmly believe you can still achieve your goal without having to inflict pain. You can still teach those lessons you value to your children without spanking. My child listens to me 90% of the time, and the other 10% of time is impulsive behavior he hasn't learned to control yet, and I have done this without spanking.
- crunchymom September 19, 2008 8:53PM
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Missing The Point
Let's set one thing straight. I am not comparing my children to cows. Hence the reason I preceded my statement with, "I know you will blow this way out of proportion and try to use correlations that I am not making against me. But I will proceed with my statement anyway."
It is not my children or family you should worry for. It should be your own. You are teaching your children to avoid problems. I do not force respect. But I am a Christian and believe in the teachings in the Bible. I believe children should respect their parents. It is when parents started to reason with 4 year olds that this country started into a tailspin. And, if your child actually listens to you 90% of the time, then you are an exception to the rule. Do you remember "time out?" Something that social services invented to take the place of spanking. Did you ever subject your child to that? Hope not. Social services recently deemed it as child abuse and neglect.
We are simply going to have to agree to disagree. Believe it or not, I understand your point. I know that you are horribly wrong but I understand your point. You however, do not and will not attempt to see mine. So further debate is futile.
I love my children. I promote free thought. And my family comes before anything else on Earth other than my God. And yes, I will most certainly substitute one smack on the hand for a visit to the emergency room.
- Gideon From The Dirty Onion
September 21, 2008 8:15PM
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I do not teach my children to avoid problems
I just understand that a child as young as three isn't capable of reason so prevention is my responsibility. Why would I leave my child open to danger so I could smack his hand and teach him a lesson he's not old enough to learn? Why is prevention bad parenting of a little child?
Also, I am a Christian, too, and in my Church we are taught not to strike our children. In my Church we go by the New Testament, not the Old one. My Church leaders tell us that we should never raise a hand to our children, that we should earn our children's respect by behaving like Christ.
Christ never told us to strike our children. He said there was a higher law than "eye for an eye." He said "And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." Matthew 18: 5-6
I do not use time outs. I use time ins. I sit with my child when he does something wrong or needs to calm down. I do not beg my children for obedience, either, or let them get away with things. I want them to love God and Mom and Dad, not fear God and Mom and Dad.
A six year old or seven year old has a better grasp of language and is easier to discipline, to learn right from wrong. But a little child? Don't smack that hand. Cover the outlet. They're innocent. They don't understand. There's no need to hurt a little child. Please stop smacking your little children.
- crunchymom September 22, 2008 4:45AM
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Messed up logic
The messed up Logic is not really messed up.
I will answer this from your own view:
You say you believe in the Bible. One particular new testiment verse comes to mind. "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right." In that verse there is no room for discussion as to whether or not the parent is right. It does not say "Children obey your parents as long as you agree with them and what they are telling you." If you truly believe the Bible, then you have to admit that Parents are put their to guide their children. It no where says that children have the right to back talk their parents, smart mouth them, etc.
I was always taught that in all things my parents were right. I was taught that you were to turn the other cheak. I was taught that you always defend your family, period. I was taught that you never speak out against your family.
- UltraConservative November 12, 2008 3:08PM
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Question
If hitting isn't the best way to discipline (punish, actually), why would anyone choose to hold onto and defend this inherited bad habit over learning constructive discipline habits?
- PDeverit
May 7, 2009 12:28AM
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Your Logic Falls Apart pt2
You need to spank when the child is too young for reasoning. What? Are you going to ask little Jonnie, "Don't stick your finger in the electrical outlet...you might get an oweee!" It is unreasonable to believe that a parent can follow their children around 24 hours a day 7 days a week, every waking second. If you disagree, you don't have kids. So, you pop their hand hard enough to sting only. That pain is the lesser of the two evils: shock or sting. The child understands that pain is associated with touching the electrical socket and does not return. If they do, consistency will prevail after a time or two. You may retort with, just put socket covers. Now you are teaching your children that the entire world is safe because Mommy and Daddy made it so. And when they actually enter the real world, they are unprepared because you sheltered them their entire life.
- Gideon From The Dirty Onion
August 19, 2008 7:57AM
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WHAT'S WRONG WITH USING COMMON SENSE
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. We never used to use seatbelts, car seats or booster seats at one time but we do now. Why? Because it's the smart thing to do and in most places it's the law! Even if it wasn't the law, most people now are so used to it that they would probably do it anyway because they care about safety.Should we put a fence around the cliff or an ambulance down in the valley? I think that the former is the best way to go. I commend all the wise parents who put covers on electrical sockets, keep dangerous things out of reach, put safety gates at the top of the stairs, store firearms unloaded in a locked cabinet and/or put trigger locks on them when not in use and the list goes on. Whatever happened to common sense? YOU DON'T REACH FOR THE HONEY WITHOUT SMOKING THE HIVE,DO YOU?
- edwin p
August 19, 2008 6:27PM
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They don't work
Experience: they covers don't work. My 7 year old was taking them out by the time he was two. By two he also figured out how to open the child proof drawers and cabinets. By two he had figured out how to open the baby gates. So, What do you do then? Put up fenses? Tell them "don't touch"? When all other options have been tried, and the only option you have is swating them to get the point across, I choose the momentary pain on their padded parts then burying my children because they electicuted themselves. Child proofing may work for some kids, but when the child has been tested to be highly inteligent and is carrying on intellectual conversations at 3, even then, reasoning does not always work.
- UltraConservative November 12, 2008 3:19PM
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Wrong Philosophy
This is a wrong philosophy. I was spanked as a child as a means of punishment and I grew up to be neither a bully nor a wimp. Neither did it make me think that it was ok to just whip up of people because they did something I did not like.
There is a difference between swatting a child to get their attention and beating the fire out of them.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 4:55AM
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violence as a solution (?)
Spanking children basically means teaching them that violence is an accaptable form of behaviour. Actually it´s even worse because it is violence against someone who is not remotely as strong as you.
How can someone who spanks children be a good role model?
- winstonsmith July 28, 2008 2:55PM
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Swatting is not violence
Swatting your child as a means of discipline is not violence as long as the reason behind it is discipline and not anger. Swatting done in anger usually ends in excessive corporal punishment known as abuse.
How can a person who refuses to discipline their children be seen as a good role model? Just go to Wal-mart and observe. You can pick out the children whose parents only use "now, Johnny, when we are in the store, behave." and those that tell their children "you mis-behave and when we get home you will get a swat." I was observing this scenario in Wal-mart the other day. I followed a mother around the store with her children. Her children were just walking all over her. She kept saying, "stop it". They acted as if they never heard her. Yet, there was another mom who, right there in Wal-mart, told her child one time, stop. When the child did not, she swatted the child right there. The child stopped and immediately said "I am sorry mommy." She got the point across and the child behaved. Did the swat damage the child? Nope.
- UltraConservative November 12, 2008 3:26PM
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Spanking = Hitting = Abuse
Dr. Straus just completed a study of 14,000 young adults showing that those who were spanked as children are more likely to have sexual problems. A study at McMaster University in Hamilton, ON showed adults who were spanked as children were more anxious & depressed, and abused alcohol & drugs more. A study of violent San Quentin prisoners found all were spanked a lot as children. A Univ. of Michigan study of 1,800 children showed spanked children exhibited worse behavior. A meta-analysis at Columbia Univ. of 88 studies showed spanking let to more aggression & anti-social behavior, more criminality & abusive behaviors, and worse mental health.To see a collection of research easily available online, go to stoptherod dot net / research dot htm Anecdotes and wild claims don't have the weight of solid research.
- SojournerTruth
July 28, 2008 6:04PM
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Look up the definition
Look up the definition of those three words.
Spanking does not mean the same as hitting.
Hitting does not mean the same as abuse.
And Abuse is the result of what happens when spanking and hitting are taken to an extreme.
- UltraConservative November 12, 2008 3:27PM
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Rosemond untruthful
John Rosemond uses the title "Dr." because he has a PhD in psychology, yet he denigrates nearly all psychological research, and he disagrees with the APA's stance on hitting persons under age 18. He should drop the title of "Dr." since he cares so little about what psychology stands for.
It's interesting the picture chosen to portray children shows a girl with her tongue out. To a spanker this would show "defiance" and unacceptable behavior. However, a realistic picture of a 2 year old (the most common age for hitting children), with tears streaming down her face, trying vainly to stop someone much larger than her from hitting her, would be far more representative of the subject being discussed here. I'm sure such a picture would elicit far more "no's" in this vote.
Parents, don't hit your children. Find better ways. Set a good example, child-proof well, pay attention to your child, learn about developmental stages, and communicate respectfully. Your children will benefit.
- SojournerTruth
July 31, 2008 6:13PM
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Spanking is fine it just shouldnt be the only form of disipline
Look The problem is that parents are lazy and stick to one form of punishment.
Your child and most people in the world will get used to anything eventually(this is why P.O.W.'s suffer various forms of torture.)
- harrygodzilla
August 1, 2008 6:11PM
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I agree with that
I agree with that. It should not be the only form of discipline and should only be used when all other means are exhausted. I only use it when reasoning with my children does not work. Those cases are few and far between.
- UltraConservative November 5, 2008 3:11PM
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Informed parents don't hit
Even "mild" hitting of a child can lead to worse behavior and aggression. This effect can last a lifetime, as much research has shown. I've compiled some easy-to-access research online, at stoptherod.net/research.htm if anyone cares to read it. John Rosemond should read it before he universally condemns the research on this topic or mistakenly attributes it all to Dr. Murray Straus.
Something important to remember, is that Rosemond is not a researcher. He speaks from a pro-hitting bias. This is understandable since he has been pro-hitting for decades in his advice columns and books, and makes his money by advising parents to be harsh toward children. He can't back up his claims about child-hitting with facts; rather, he panders to spankers who want to hear that hitting little children is a good thing. This is very unprofessional. CED, on the other hand, makes no money from defending children and the truth. From a financial viewpoint alone, Rosemond is the less credible debater.
- Susan Lawrence August 2, 2008 6:07PM
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Baby boomer response
I sincerely believe if a child deserves a spanking, they should receive it. It appears that we have a definite problem with the youth of today, as opposed to the older generation, most of which, I assume, received spankings as children. I don't see many 50, 60, and 70 year olds that have rebellious or violent tendencies because of their history of spankings. There is a big difference between spankings and beatings, and as long as the parent knows the difference, there should be no problem when a spanking is called for.
- Glasscat
August 3, 2008 10:20AM
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I agree
I agree that the children of today do not understand disipline these days. I used to teach preschool children and just in the last ten years I noticed a big difference in childrens behavior.Now I notice young people in their early twenties being very disrispectful towards authority figures e.g. teachers, bosses ect... These changes started when parents stopped spanking and used time outs or reasoning trust me does not always work and I speak from experiance I have two boys that not always behaved outside the home I was afraid to disapline them in public becaose I was afraid I would get into trouble for giving them one swat but on one of our outings one of my children was acting out and I was very imberrassed so I swatted his bottom and he stopped.An older lady approached me and said thank you!Young parents have to understand that if your having a bad time with your child at the think of the people around you. It is not pleasant when I have to go to the store and there is a child in front of you screaming because they can't have a toy or some candy and the mother is very emberassed I just think give the child a good swat it will stop even my kids look at those children in disbeliefe So I dont think my kids siffered from an occasional swat on the bottom or slap on the hand.So just think when you see someone swat there child remember it is there child so dont interfer and they are just trying to make not only there shopping trip better but yours also
- katlvbill
December 9, 2008 8:11PM
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Worked for me
I know the threat of a belt kept me straight some people need that. Had my 6th grade teacher not had that paddle there would have been anarchy. See I told you!
My son says the same thing today!!
- Cherokee Fred hussein August 5, 2008 2:08AM
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Spanking is Not Acceptable
Not only is spanking ineffective, it is unacceptable. I wouldn't allow someone to slap me if I were acting out of line, why would I consider it OK to spank my child.
- MelissaH August 5, 2008 3:36PM
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My daughter doesn't need it...
Before I go further, I don't praise or criticize anyone on their discipline methods. AN INDIVIDUAL SHOULD BE ABLE TO ACT AS HE OR SHE WISHES.
- PSYOP
August 5, 2008 8:37PM
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I don't need to spank my child...
How you discipline your child is your business, that's freedom. I CAN tell you that when my child misbehaves, I stop immediately and say "WHOA...can you tell me why what you just did is unacceptable?" This seems to always work for us, and though it involves a bit more time and thought, it teaches our child to THINK and UNDERSTAND why certain things are inappropriate. It can be hard to fight frustration, and every parent is ready to snap at one time or another, but hey, you get out of your children what you invest in them. I believe that hitting is not OK in 99% of circumstances (barring life and death occasions), so don't confuse children by hitting them. Furthermore, shame as a tool pales in comparison with learning. I have reservations with the earlier assertion that children can't reason before age 10. If one thinks that way, then kids aren't given a CHANCE TO REASON!
- PSYOP
August 5, 2008 8:48PM
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Children behave as well as they are treated!
1. Children learn by our example. Hitting children teaches them to become hitters themselves.
2. In many cases of so-called "bad behavior", the child is simply responding in the only way he can, given his age and experience. It is surely wrong and unfair to punish a child for responding in a natural way to having important needs neglected.
3. Punishment distracts the child from learning how to resolve conflict in an effective and humane way.
4. Punishment, even when it appears to work, can produce only superficially good behavior based on fear, which can only take place until the child is old enough to resist.
Parents, please see my article "Twenty-Two Alternatives to Punishment" at The Natural Child Project website.
Jan Hunt, M.Sc., Director
The Natural Child Project
- naturalchild August 6, 2008 8:09AM
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Be gentle to your kids!
It's surprising Mr. Rosemond thinks research on spanking kids is not conclusive. If you take the time to look at it, and there are dozens of studies, the overwhelming majority of them show more harms than benefits to hitting for discipline. The only study I see mentioned by Mr. Rosemond is one by Baumrind, which is a weak study at best (and doesn't show that spanking is good for children, only that "mild" spanking has "few harmful effects" ). For the record, Baumrind didn't hit her own children! In her own words she says she doesn't advocate spanking.
For me, I don't need any studies. I was hit as a child and I knew it was wrong (and scary and depressing). It didn't teach me anything other than my parents can't be trusted and that I didn't want to be like them.
There are better ways to instill respectful, wise behavior. The kids I know who are hit are the rude, out-of-control ones. The ones who aren't hit (including mine of course) are gentle, smart and polite.
- Carol August 6, 2008 6:13PM
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Does not always work
My parents were that way with my little brother and it did not work. As a result he has been in and out of prisons, has no respect for authority, has no respect for our parents, and many other problems.
If you raise your children to be respectful from the start, then there is rarely ever a need to spank them. I have two boys that have been tested and found to be a genious level IQ's. They rationalize everything that they do. If they don't obey, I have two choices, swat them, or talk to them. If what they did was minor, talking to them always works. However, there has been rare occasions when a swat on the bottom was merrited. That does not make me or any other person who uses that form of punishment on occasion a bad parent, an uncaring parent or a monster.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 5:15AM
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Conspiracy Theories
Every single national psychological, psychiatric, pediatric and medical professional association in the entire western world that comments on the issue (not counting political pressure groups) states that spanking is harmful to children. The scientific evidence is overwhelming. Any kind of claim that the scientific community is pretending on that point is conspiracy theory stuff of the first order.
If you care, you will look at the evidence. If your child had a fever, you would ask what medical science says should be done. Why would you put any less faith in what their research says about corporal punishment?
Just as a tiny sampling (and check the rest to make sure that I'm not cherry-picking), have a look at what is said online by The American Academy of Pediatrics, The American Psychological Association, The Canadian Paediatrics Society, England's Royal College of Paediatrics, and The Australian Psychological Society. No such organizations agree with Rosemond.
- Greg1 August 7, 2008 6:14AM
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Check their methodology...
ALL of the studies you cite are skewed. Associations, Societies, Departments ALL have something to gain by way of fees for their services or legitimacy via publishing as in academia. Don't you think they act on economic or self interest? Many of the studies are of segments of society that are ILL, INCARCERATED or DAMAGED. However important these classes are they do NOT use normal [NOT needing their services] as control sets. So how are we to believe their STATS? If you're a good statistician you can't. However, if you have money to make or a tenure to gain you will create a client/test base WHEREVER you can. It's called self-fulfillment. And some might consider THAT a problem in need of a cure as well.
Victor Frankl was also derided for his work by the APA. He got in trouble with them when he challenged them to CURE themselves of their need to treat their clients incessantly without ever reaching any substantive resolution. He accused them of being addicted to their client's money.
No wonder they hated him.
So my considered advice [successful parent] is for you to query a complete cross section of parents both current and past, good and bad, lazy and proactive, incarcerated and free, criminal and upstanding citizen et al. Until you do, you might want to guard against standing on the shaky ground of "studies by...
- BLZeebub
November 23, 2008 10:22AM
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Hearing Voices
As one of thousands of people who work in children's mental health, I know that harsh physical punishment of children CAUSES problems; it doesn't FIX problems or children. If John Rosemond hears a voice telling him to beat children, I do not believe it comes from God. Competent psychologists, ministers and world leaders know that children need inner strength and hope, not fear and anxiety.
- F L Morris August 7, 2008 9:43AM
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Kids Learn
I am just writing after reading Jimmy words that the parents should not spank the kids as if the parents hit the child they will learn to hit. but what do you thing about parents. they are enemy of kids. No instead they are the right path for the kids who just teach the kids after their experience from the life. and they lead the kids to good things sometimes by small hitting and sometimes with a smiling face.
Overall, it's better to control the kids in both ways that is by spanking and by happiness.
Muhammad Sajid
- Muhammad Sajid
August 7, 2008 10:37AM
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Hitting is wrong whether you're an infant, child, or adult
Hitting hurts. It may stop certain behaviours, but only in the short-term. And not everyone hit in the past. My loving, wonderful Great-Grandma raised five children with the firm belief that hitting only taught children to hit. Her children, my Grandma and her siblings, were all loving, productive, wonderful citizens and parents. Hitting or spanking is used by parents who don't know how to otherwise discipline. It makes no sense to hit children when the goal is to raise children to be kind and polite. Why is it okay to hit children and not grown family relations, other adult strangers, or say grannies? Hitting is wrong. And you cannot tell me that Jesus would advocate beating children. Do shepherds beat their sheep? Uh, NO.
- Mumof4 August 7, 2008 12:49PM
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Sheep
"Do shepherds beat their sheep?"
You've never been to New Zealand, eh?
- reb412 August 30, 2008 9:04PM
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Spanking is an absolute esential for discipline
Disciplining a child is all a part of their development. You must have a deterrent of some kind.
Some kids only understand the stick otherwise you wont get through to them.
To avoid this is to delay a prison sentence when they get commit an offence that would have been prevented with earlier correction
- brakers
August 7, 2008 8:04PM
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I will not . . .
I will not do anything to my child that I wouldn't want done to me. I will not hit my child. I will not do something that causes my child to fear me. I will not tell my child that might makes right. I will not send my child mixed messages--I love you and I hit you. I will not promote violence.
Spanking is hitting and there is nothing good that will come of hitting one's child. Nothing.
I want a better world. I will treat my child as such.
- jawgnat
August 7, 2008 8:46PM
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Hitting Little Children
Even without decades of research identifying the potentially harmful long and short term outcomes of this deplorable practice of hitting the bodies of little children in the name of discipline, common sense and decency should tell us that this is an unacceptable practice. When large children hit and hurt smaller children, we call them bullies. What should we call a full grown adult who is so lacking in parenting and discipline strategies that he or she resorts to hitting a child?
- LaVonne August 8, 2008 5:24AM
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Compassionate and effective alternatives to punishment
1. Prevent unwanted behavior by meeting your child's needs when they are first expressed. With her current needs met, she is free to move on to the next stage of learning.
2. Provide a safe, child-friendly environment. There is little point in having precious items within the reach of a baby or toddler, when they can simply be put away until the child is old enough to handle them carefully.
3. Apply the Golden Rule. Think about how you would like to be treated if you were to find yourself in the same circumstances as your child. Human nature is human nature, regardless of age.
4. Show empathy for your child's feelings. Even if a child's behavior seems illogical, his underlying feelings and needs are real to him. A statement like "You seem really unhappy" is a good way to show that you are on your child's side.
For 18 more alternatives, see "22 Alternatives to Punishment: on my Natural Child Project site (go to Articles > Jan Hunt > Living with Children).
Jan Hunt, M.Sc. Counselor
- naturalchild August 8, 2008 11:36AM
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spanking is ridiculous
hitting a child in the name of discipline is ridiculous. why people continue to endorse treating helpless children this way i do not understand. if i were to hit another adult in order to attempt to change his or her behavior i would go to jail. people who hit little children should be dealt with similarly.
- molls August 8, 2008 1:38PM
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Spanking creates aggression
I have read in many surveys a lot of arguments against and for spanking. Setting all the research aside and looking only at the aggressive language used and the intellectual level of the majority of pro-spankers who were spanked themselves as well, it is difficult not to come to the conclusion that spanking creates aggression and harms children mental development. If for nothing else, then for the sake of non-aggressive, mentally fit society spanking for “correction” should be banished, and the sooner the better.
- Dana
August 8, 2008 4:45PM
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hmm...
I was spanked as child and I have NEVER been aggressive towards anyone.
I also disagree with you saying that because I was spanked it messed with me mentally or that now because I am an adult who was spanked I am not mentally ready for society.
I guess I might as well go hide under a rock because my parents doomed me to a life of violence and insecurity. WRONG!
I loved and respected my parents then and I do now. There is no resentment for the way they corrected me. I am a strong healthy,good, well rounded adult.
Your statement is not true for everyone. At least it's not true with me,or my husband who was also spanked and is now a wonderful, kind, and respectful man.
- Jordyn August 23, 2008 12:02AM
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DO NOT PLAY RUSSIAN ROULETTE WITH YOUR CHILDREN
While it is true that some people do turn out OK after spanking,it's not always so. Do we know what the results will be if we spank a child? If we are honest, we would have to say no. It's like playing Russian roulette. you don't know whether you will pull the trigger on the live chamber or not. Why take that chance and live to regret it. There are safer and more dependable methods out there. Our forefathers didn't have the access to the resources that we have and had to rely on what they were taught. We are without excuse and as a result, we must learn to say no to what is harmful and yes to what is helpful.
- edwin p
August 23, 2008 1:56PM
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The Parenting Golden Rule
"Treat all others as you would like to be treated yourself." The Golden Rule has proved its excellence as a moral guide since ancient times.
It might be illuminating to apply this rule to common methods of discipline, considering the case of a husband and wife in the "same position" as that of children being disciplined:
1. Physical Punishment:The wife accidentally spills coffee on her husband's new jacket. He hits her.
Will the wife be more careful with his belongings in the future? Or might she have him arrested for spousal abuse?
2. Time-out: The husband starts to argue with a visiting friend. The wife tells him "It's not nice to argue with your friend! I won't have this! Go sit in the bedroom for half an hour!"
Will the husband become less argumentative? Will the embarrassment of the situation set him straight? Will he feel like apologizing to his friend?
See the full article at The Natural Child Project site: Articles > Jan Hunt > Living With Children
- naturalchild August 9, 2008 4:20PM
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a swat on the bottom never did permanite damage
spanking should be just part of a parents tool box. it should be used in cases of direct defience.
i disagree with some experts who say use a wooden spoon or some other type of pattle. I think it is important for parents to use their hands so they can feel how hard they are accually swatting. it would be too easy to hurt your child if you can not feel it.
- superherom03
August 11, 2008 6:40AM
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SOME PEOPLE ARE DOUBLEMINDED
I know a Christian woman who does not believe in child abuse but still insists that children should be spanked so they will grow up OK. By approving of spanking, she is taking away her power to launch any successful protest against abuse. Anything that causes pain is abuse. Since at one time it was legal for husbands to hit wives, I asked her if it would be OK for me to hit her if she was my wife and misbehaved. She refused to give me an answer and gave me the brush off. It seems that when you get people like this over a barrel, they let pride get in the way and either change the subject or tell you to get lost. People like this give the Christianity I believe in a bad name and and hinder me and other concerned Christians in our efforts to protect children's rights. When are they going to learn that standing up for children's rights is a Christian responsibility? Don't be discouraged you who are standing up for children's rights. KEEP ON KEEPING ON!
- edwin p
August 11, 2008 1:48PM
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Spanking is not Abuse
Spanking a child as a form of punishment and abusing them just because you can are not one in the same. When spanking becomes abuse, then it is a problem. One swat to get the attention does not kill, maime, or permanently injure any child. Spanking them as the only form of punishment for every thing that they do is wrong.
- UltraConservative November 5, 2008 3:14PM
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Hitting children is wrong
Hitting children does not solve any problems, it only causes more problems. Even if children behave better if they are hit, this is just out of fear and when they are old enough to do it back to their parents they stop behaving so well and become more violent in the long-term. Instead of hurting their children, parents should reason with them and explain things. Hitting teaches children that hitting is okay and that parents are scary. It does not teach children the good things that reasoning with them does.
- zoe August 12, 2008 5:43PM
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Risk outweighs any benefit
When it comes to children, it is wrong to make them participants in anything that has the slightest significance for risk... unless there is some good that can more certainly be gained in this way than by any other means that is safer. Surely, you can always think of at least one way to interrupt a child's unwanted behavior and/or guide a child toward acceptable behavior that is safer, positive and at least as effective as hitting the child. Once you realize that, spanking cannot be justified again. It is the principle that guides physicians and other professionals: do no harm. It should be a principle of parenting, as well. The risks posed are not offset by any good that cannot not be realized in a safer way.
- Randy Cox
August 13, 2008 12:06PM
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It's your problem, not theirs
Spanking a child is never appropriate. The act itself is revealing a lack of ability from the parent to effectively teach his or her child the lesson needed to be learned.
Quite often the anger preceded by the spanking itself is the parent's inability to manage his or her life and emotions, thus another inappropriate example to the child.
A child need only be told not to do something then removed from a situation. Spanking is a result of a parent unwilling to disrupt his or her life by having to remove the child (and his or her self) from any given situation whereby a lesson needed to be taught. The parent doesn't wish to be inconvenienced.
Spanking is the lazy parent's way of teaching and discipline.
- scooteraz
August 21, 2008 6:22AM
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No Problem with Spanking
I grew up in an era where 'time outs' were for sports and the spanking was what you got when you did something you were explicitly told not to do. I don't feel I was scarred by it and it didn't make me a dysfunctional adult. It did make me think twice about doing something I knew I wasn't supposed to do. From what I’ve seen reasoning has very little affect, and the simpering parent is almost as annoying as the ill behaved child. Too often children manipulate their parents with their bad behavior. If they understand that mom and dad aren't going to tolerate it, they stop. I’m concerned about the lack of discipline in a younger generation where plea bargaining and compromise has been the norm between parent and child. The child ultimately gets his/her way and the parent is the dupe. Naturally, I don’t believe in excessive punishment. Beating a child is not acceptable; but the occasional smack on the rump or slap on the hand makes a child understand when they’ve crossed the line.
- Robin August 28, 2008 4:23PM
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Left to me.........
I think spanking could be used in two instances only, which are: when a child DELIBERATELY repeats an unwanted behavior which has been previously warned against at least 3 times before. Secondly, if a child has been given a punishment for an infraction but DELIBERATELY fails to accept and do the punishment. And I meant to highlight deliberately for a reason. I believe that in these two cases, the child is showing signs of insubordination and unyielding resistance which should not be entertained by the parent. And I am putting it forward that the most effective way to handle this type of situation is to administer a firm spanking, just enough to make the child start crying and no more. My aim is not to beat up my child, it is just to teach him/her a lesson in obedience.
Also, before spanking a child, there must be a warning therefore the child has a choice as to whether he/she wants to be spanked or not if he continues with the unwanted behavior. I believe spankings should be left for the most serious infractions. Also, mistakes must not be punished, we all make mistakes.
Looking at the big picture I just refuse to accept the fact that a firm spanking ,if administered sparingly and only when needed, would cause a child to develop personality problems. The reason for this is that majority of people who have these problems in life where never from balanced home environments from the start. They were either punished violently too frequently and unnecessarily or they were not brought up in a healthy and child-friendly environment which includes among others positive reinforcement, rewards, patience,fairness,empathy, love, education, inspiration and trust on the part of parents and guardians.
When people say that it is wrong to rightly spank a child because an adult cannot be spanked, I beg to differ. And this is because, when last was it accepted that a husband can ground his wife or send her to her room for a time out or tell her to stand in the corner or give her more house chores or tell her to write lines or send her to bed early or refuse her computer time or TV time or collect her favorite hobby/pastime/jewelery of even scold her or give her a good talking to???
I think before we all start jumping to conclusions, we should analyze things better.
- daughterofgoodluck August 30, 2008 11:38AM
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THERE WAS A TIME WIVES COULD BE BEATEN
There was a time that husbands could legally spank their wives if they misbehaved. Not beat, just enough to show who was boss and to keep order in the home. There was a time when it was legal for employers to whip their employees for insubordination. Today, such things are illegal and could land you in trouble with the law. Also it is a criminal offence to beat a dog or cat. If it is wrong to hit any of these, why should children be any different? Prisoners in a jail cannot be hit. Therefore why should children be hit when they haven't commited any crime? WHAT ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HIT CHILDREN THINKING?
- edwin p
August 31, 2008 6:35PM
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Ok
So now if we want to exclude spanking, could husbands still punish/discipline their wives in the same manner that is still considered acceptable towards children e.g grounding, withdrawal of privileges etc.? Or is it wrong nowadays for parents to still use these other forms of punishment with their children since it's not allowed in a husband-wife relationship or even vice-versa?
If we really want to be realistic here, we can't compare the relationship a husband has with his wife or that which a boss has with his employee WITH a parent-child relationship. Whereby the former could be seen as a partnership,parents are in a position of authority and are responsible for the discipline and upbringing of their children which could involve punishment in reasonable and considerate limits when the need arises. Firm discipline in a healthy and child-friendly environment could be one of the BEST privileges a child could ever have because such a child would mature to become a balanced and respectable member of society which we all know.
Let's face it, right now if a man treats his wife (or even if a woman treats her husband) like one of his children, and decides to punish her (still excluding spanking that is), won't it still be a criminal offense? At least I know that if a boss decides to seize his employees car keys, carry his employee off to her office for a time out on her table or chair as the case may be, it would be considered a criminal offense.
Something tells me that there would come a time in the world when people would come up with the idea that, it is not allowed for parents to penalize their kids for disobedience.
- daughterofgoodluck August 31, 2008 10:15PM
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I"M REFERRING TO SPANKING
I am not against non violent ways of discipline, just those that involve striking the body in any way. When a man and woman marry they vow to love and take care of each other. Sure, there will be differences of opinion but there are peaceful ways to settle them. Witholding support from your spouse is considered a Civil Offence, not a Criminal One. As for the master and servant relationship, under Employment Law, your employer has the authority to issue a verbal and/ or written reprimand and/or suspend and/or fire you for insubordination or any other breach of your employment contract.So you see,there are many ways for parents to deal with children that are legal and don't involve striking the body.
- edwin p
September 1, 2008 4:04PM
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So you're not opposed to other ways of discipline
Good we can agree on that. I hope you know that some parents are totally against any form of discipline, they say that love and punishment don't flow ,you know. To show you the extent to which man has distorted the idea of parental discipline.
Now, I hope you know that confiscation of treasured property or restriction of movement by marriage partners is considered spousal abuse. While, there is no specific criminal offense of spousal abuse, the rules of criminal law can cover spousal abuse which corresponds to a criminal offense such as in cases of forcible confinement and intimidation. Even if I base it on your comment that it is a civil offense, then it is still an offense. Yes as you said, even if my employer has the right to do all of the above, he still does not have the right whatsoever to restrict my movement or confiscate my property. Just as you can't go out and restrict your neighbor or their kid for misbehaving.
Now, I'm saying that assuming we excluded spanking and focused on other forms of discipline that you agree with. Since it would be considered spousal abuse if a man decides to punish his wife in a way which is acceptable to punish his child, then is that not child abuse? So can we conclude that time-out, withdrawal of treasured property/ privileges, grounding and all others that 'non-spankers' recommend, are all forms of child abuse? Just as people say that, since it is an offense to 'spank' a spouse or outsider or co-worker, then it must also be an offense to spank children.
- daughterofgoodluck September 2, 2008 12:06AM
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Right on
I completely agree. I think spanking is acceptable if used as a last resort or as punishment for deliberate defiance. The few times I have spanked my children I have always warned them before doing so. And this was also after using other disciplinary tactics. I also have a hard time believing spanking causes personality problems. If spanking is used as the primary form of discipline, then yes, it's very possible they may have aggression issues. However, if spanking is used only occasionally in the types of situations you mention, in an otherwise loving home environment, I don't think it is inappropriate or unacceptable.
- nmay88 September 18, 2008 3:08PM
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It's not about the violence
Spanking a child is a simple form and yet effective form of telling a child it has gone too far.
Imagine the situation: your 4/5-year old child is playing around with the glass figures in a vitrine. it might even climb into it tograb the topmost figurine. you tell it to stop, but are too occupied to watch over it all the time, because you are fixing dinner. So as you tell it to stop, it knows it is forbidden (maybe you also tell it that it could be dangerous). Your child obeys, but as you turn away, the shiny glass figures are suddenly more interesting than what you said. so it starts messing around nevertheless. you tell it to stop again, in a more severe way, you mgiht even threat with punishment. But your child is smart. It knows there might be some consequences, but doesn't have a clear image of them, also the figurines are by far more interesting and what could possibly go wrong? so as you turn away again, your child tries to climb for the topmost figure again. it has stepped over the line and now has to know the consequences for disobeying. you slap it. not hard. the child just has to learn that there are consequences, immediate conseuqence for its stipping-over-the-line.
- eApricot September 4, 2008 1:21PM
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it's not about the violence 2
So you see, once a child has gone too far, it must face immediate punishment. this is, as simple as it sounds, basic conditioning. Let's explain this: if you want to enhance the behavior shown, you have to give affirmative input. If you train a dog, you give it a bone, if you raise a child, you may compliment it, and so on. If you want to reduce the behavior shown, ONLY punishment will work. Of course, the forms if punishment may vary, but it has to happen immediately. Slapping is only one form, it should always be the last resort. But what is even more important than all of the above is CONSISTENCY. Every form of beavior can only be trained or "de-trained" if the reaction to it is consistent. Inconsistency is the way to spoil a child, a dog or even mouse. It might sound hard comparing children to dogs, but it really is that simple. Incosistent input as well as backing down to whining (e.g. supermarket/sweets...) is what spoils a child.
- eApricot September 4, 2008 1:38PM
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Violence is never the right answer
If we can go to jail for hitting an adult, who is capable of defending himself, why is it acceptable to hit a child, who is incapable of defending himself?
Physical harm is not a reasonable punishment for caring, peaceful parents. It's simply unfathomable.
I do not hit my children. My friends do not hit their children. We are committed to peace, and our children are not wild, misbehaving brats as a result. Spanking, swatting, slapping, none of these things are necessary to raise well-behaved children.
- crunchymom September 18, 2008 3:59AM
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Who Do children belong to ?
The question is who do your childen belong to? You or the state? The state in most cases, feel that they have the right to tell parents how they can and cannot raise their children because our government thinks that the children belong to them. If that were true, then the government should pay all their bills, buy their cloths, furnish all their food, pay for their education, buy their cars, etc. However, since that is not the case, maybe the government and other people should leave how a parent decides to discipline THEIR childrent to them.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 5:22AM
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That's a disgusting answer
Children are not livestock. You don't own them like a car or cow. Yes they are part of your family, but they are human beings.
- crunchymom November 4, 2008 12:48PM
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exactly my point
You made my point for me. They are my family, not yours, not the governments, not any one elses. Therefore, How I choose to discipline them is my concern, not yours or any one elses. My wife and I bore our children. We feed them, we supply for them, we buy their cloths, pay for their education, etc. That makes us, not the government or any liberal "lets just love every one" person, responsible for them.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 1:37PM
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Besides
Besides that, this is a forum for sharing ones views of something, not sitting in judgement and attacking people the way that you are doing. What gives you the right to attact me or any one else? If you want to share your views, fine. But do not sit in judgment and call people names because they view things differently.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 1:41PM
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I said your answer was disgusting, not you
I get to say your idea is abhorrent.
I haven't attacked anyone personally anywhere on this entire website.
- crunchymom November 4, 2008 4:08PM
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You side stepped the question
You completely side stepped the question. My question of who do your children belong to does not make them any thing less than children. My wife and I did not consult the government or any one else when we decided to have children. They did not pay for them to be born. We did. They bear my last name, not the government or any one eles. Therefore, I have the right to decide what is right for them. They are not educated in the Public School system because of the same beliefs. Personally, my children belong to God. When they were born we dedicated them back to him for the gift he gave us. Therefore, we, being my wife and I, not my wife and I, and the government (or any one else) have a Biblical responsiblilty to raise them up the right way. You want to know what the Christian means of discipline is? Try reading the Bible, it is there. My guess is though, that you really don't want to know that even though you rely on a "Conservative Christian's" opinion who does not even hold a Biblical basis for it.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 9:31PM
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That's an entirely different debate
I read the Old and New Testaments regularly. I did not sidestep your question, but you did attack me in a way that was untrue.
Unless you can show me where in the New Testament Christ said that we have a duty to strike our children, then the Bible is not and never will be an excuse to use corporal punishment. It's true, my interpretations are different from yours, which is why there are so many Christian denominations around. No one can agree. My interpretation, along with the interpretation of my Church leaders and teachers, is that Christ was gentle and peaceful, and wanted us to replace the law of Moses with someting deeper, to address our inner minds as well as our outer actions. I teach my children that Jesus Christ believed in charity and peacemaking and controlling our anger. I believe striking a child undermines that message.
I was spanked as a child and I turned out OK, too, but I also broke my arm and turned out OK, and survived an abusive relationship and turned out Okay. That doesn't mean I don't wish I could not have experienced those things, or that those things were necessary. They weren't. I'm glad your children turned out fine and that you turned out fine. I still believe spanking to be a horrible, and will continue to say so to anyone who will hear it.
As for your question about your children belonging to you - I do not believe that this makes it OK to hurt them. My husband supports me, pays our bills, buys our groceries, and is the head of our house, but that does not give him the right to hit me. I believe human beings are born with certain rights and that physical violence goes against those rights. And I KNOW Christ would never spank a child. I know that. If I ask myself WWJD, striking a child isn't one of them.
- crunchymom November 4, 2008 11:35PM
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Spanking
Spanking is an acceptable form of discipline, when it is done in love, without anger and is discussed with the child so he/she understands why they are receiving this kind of correction. I do not believe a parent should spank their child for childish behavior, but for repeated willful disobedience and rebellion they need this type of discipline. Children with boundaries are happier children ... spanking is one type of boundary that will produce a happy child if administered correctly.
- Canadian September 18, 2008 7:59PM
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Children Are Not Possessions
It grieves me how many people here believe that they should be able to do whatever they want to their children. Children are not dogs to be trained or clay to be molded. They are people, born with their own personalities and passions. We are teachers and guides, not police officers or lion tamers.
We would not swat our grandmother, even if she was losing the ability to tell the difference between right and wrong. We would not smack the hand of our spouse for never remembering to put their clothes in the hamper or balancing the check book. A peaceful society cannot reasonably defend the use of physical harm to teach a child how to behave in a peaceful society.
- crunchymom September 19, 2008 4:01PM
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If it grieves you
If it grieves you, then don't post, don't comment, don't come on here. People are allowed to have views that differ. That is what makes us individuals and not puppets and robots. There is a difference in spanking and abuse. Once swat did not kill me, not has it killed or injured my children. Abuse is when you take that swat and do it out of pure anger and hate. In the state I live in, if you do any sort of discipline such as time outs, sending them to their room, or any thing that off sets them from other human contact for any period of time, it is against the law. We have become a society so worried about what others are doing and spend far to little time in our own back yards. Maybe if people minded their own business more, then my state would not be bringing the SRS in my state up in Lawsuits and Charges for wrongly interpreting what abuse was and wrongly removing children from their homes.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 9:56PM
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So which is it?
"If it grieves youIf it grieves you, then don't post, don't comment, don't come on here. People are allowed to have views that differ."
Those two sentences contradict themselves. If something makes me sad I shouldn't speak up about it? If I don't agree I shouldn't come to a debate board where people post opposite views? You do know this is an OPPOSING VIEWS board, right? And I oppose your view. If you want people to not disagree with your view, go start a blog.
- crunchymom November 4, 2008 11:02PM
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Restatement
Let me put it this way then since you did not understand what I was saying. You have repeatedly told people on here to stop hurting children. Not every one see's spanking as hurting children. Are they wrong? That is not for you or any Dr. to decide. They is for them as individuals to decide. I do not desire to change your view. I do however what you to see that there are other views about it and that just because someone does not agree with you about spanking, it does not make them a bad parent, a monster as others have suggested, abusive, or any thing else negative.
- UltraConservative November 5, 2008 11:11AM
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Spanking teaches children to hit!
Is that really what you want to convey? That hitting and violence are acceptable means of dealing with conflict? Personally, that's the last thing I want on my conscience.
- bagpiper2005
October 26, 2008 3:35PM
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So long as it is not abusive
I believe that spaking is appropriate when need be. There are some things that children do that must be met with harsher punishments than others. For my children, time outs do not work, grounding them does not work, taking things away does not work. Why? Because they have been raised that things do not matter. They have a tv, but they don't watch it much, they have video games, but they don't play them. Fun for them is working with our hunting dogs. Taking away their TV just has no affect on them. I also believe that there is a point when spanking becomes abuse. When it becomes abusive, then it is damaging to the child. I was raised by my grandparents and spanking was their method of punishment. I would say it did not affect me any. I have a family of my own, I have spent 16 years in college, I have my own business, etc.
- UltraConservative November 4, 2008 4:49AM
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By all means, yes!
SOME children need spanked. Some listen better than others and will comply with a warning. On the other hand, we have all seen the talk shows "My Seven Year Old is out of Control"... Ok, well, that is the parents fault. Anyone who would let their children act out like that needs spanked, then the children need spanked! Get control of your kids- but, keep in mind there is a difference between disipline and abuse.
- cacord84
December 6, 2008 4:48AM
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pain is real
I think that spanking should not be a common staple of child discipline, but it can be warranted. Sometimes children engage in activities that directly physically harm others or if continued will lead to physical harm to the child. I think in some such circumstances, a spanking should accompany other types of punishment because pain is a real consequence. This however will not be useful if you use spanking as a consequence for everyday incursions. Also, sometimes people give a spanking, notice that it works and then try to use spanking as a threat for anything they don't like. This also negates the point. Once when my nephew was about 2, he decided that biting me was a really funny game--he was biting me very hard and laughing at my reaction. We tried everything to get him to stop, but nothing worked and he kept doing it. I finally took his hand and bit one of his fingers--not super hard, but hard enough to let him know that I wasn't playinng a game. He was incredibly shocked and immediately stopped the biting game. I don't think my message was confusing in the least bit.
- wrww
December 8, 2008 6:57AM
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Not Acceptable
If we teach our kids that it's ok to hit another person when they disobey what we say then they will want to hit their friends, siblings, etc. If we teach them the non-violent consequences of their actions, it's even more effective at changing the behavior without violence.
If you really think it's ok to hit a loved one who is not listening or obeying, why can't we hit our spouses then when they don't listen to what we want them to do? Beating on an innocent child who trusts us and is just learning about boundaries and right/wrong is really outmoded and incorrect thinking. Try the "Love and Logic" techniques or even read the book "One, Two, Three, Magic" for non-violent discipline. I really don't need my kids to fear me, I'd like them to understand why what they are doing is not acceptable. I get my point across fine without screaming, berating or hitting my children and you know what? they are nice kids and don't hit anyone else, either but the kids in their class that are smacked and yelled at are kind of not nice kids to play with and I feel so bad for them.
- Flora
December 8, 2008 9:15AM
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YES
Spanking is fine. Before the so called "experts" (professionally educated people who a lot of times don't even have children) started telling parents how to parents, children used to obey ANY authority, not just their parents. They had respect for any grown person. Most of those children were spanked when they were little if they needed it and turned out just fine. You don't see adults who were spanked as a child going around hitting everybody in sight.
I know plenty of parents who don't spank their children for fear of psychologically harming their child, and guess what?? The kids are so misbehaved I can't allow my children around them. There is a right way to spank a child. Never spank your child out of anger. You can explain to them why they are getting a spanking and then hug them afterwards. They will grow up to be loving, happy children.
- swissmaedel2008
December 8, 2008 11:25AM
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teaching reality
I have noticed that many of the post stress how bad parents are who spank or don't spank... many are missing the most important point; are you teaching your child to be a good citizen?
I am a law enforcement officer, I am also a father. I think that parents who lean totally one way or the other are doing a great disservice to their children. Reality is just that, the world is not a touchy feely place that only soft plush characters live in; and neither is it a place of constant violence where danger and death is around ever corner.
Telling a child no is a good thing, backing up that no is better. I the backup is to use time outs and loss of privilege then so be it... and if that doesn't work a quick swat on the bottom or hand may be required. Stop thinking that the world is black and white and be a realist. The child that in front of you is your pride and joy and a little angle for the most part has learned to play the part to perfection. I have seen mothers call about 18 year old daughters who are "virgins" with "no knowledge of men" when asked if they had a boy friend end up being found in the bed of 35 year old men who they had been seeing for just short of a year. Sorry Mom, the girl knew and even told the mother off after that. I have dealt with 19 year old sons who "stay in the books" and "would never drink much less associate with drug" end up arrested for dealing drugs. Oh by the way, these are not low class parents, they were professionals and the children were raised with privilege, responsibility, and modern discipline.
I stopped a young man one day and when I informed him that he needed to give me his license, he said I needed to do something anatomically impossible. I informed him that he had a legal requirement to present his license due to the fact that he was driving, again he was rude. I then told him that if he didn't cooperate I would take him into custody for DWI and other charges, he then balled up his fist and told me his mother and father told him he had rights and that I "better back off." I then informed him I would use force if he didn't cooperate and he told me, "my mom and dad don't speak to me that way so you sure as hell can't." At which time I informed him that he would be taken into custody and if he made me use force I would bring him to the doctor before bringing him to jail; his jaw dropped and he started to cry; crying 20 year old boys are a sight.
A good friend of mine who works narcotics asked a father to help him by letting him search an area that he was given information that the young man was hiding drugs in the father's home. The officer had been told that the boy was protected by the parents and had never had to be punished or told "no." The father denied the officer and the boy was not able to be arrested, one year later the boy again became a subject that my friend had information on, this time for a worse crime. He talked to the father and told him that he was not helping the boy by protecting him and that his son would one day do something that he couldn't shield him from, Dad said he had a duty to protect his son no matter what. The young man is now serving a life sentence without parole, he killed someone. The father ask my friend every couple of months if there is nothing to be done... and the answer is always the same, "I'm sorry, no." My friend and I spoke of it one night, he told me that we could have stopped it if the father had been honest with himself and helped his son to grow up, even though it would have hurt him at the time, but now the young man will live and die in jail.
Teach your children to obey... teach them nice, and if you have to don't be as nice, "you are the parent, not their friend." They have a life to live where others "will" require them to behave in a proper manner, and they won't care if your child was raised strict or liberal.
Give them the chance to mature as they grow, don't make them go out into the world and then have to try to play catch up.
- rarelyon
December 8, 2008 3:39PM
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Not acceptable for a many reasons
I can not believe people, especially a psychologist believes it could be okay to hit a child. The Scandanavian countries have banned hitting children and they have the lowest rate of child abuse.
Discipline is about teaching children appropriate behaviour and how can it be appropriate to use violence? I sure do think it does harm. I still remember my younger siblings getting a spanking and how upsetting it was for me. There are so many better ways to teach a child.
- Momtotwo
January 6, 2009 11:42PM
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Spanking is Acceptable
Spanking is correct when a child does something bad after been warned, of course when spanking , the parent has to explain to the child that he is spanking him because he didn't obey and that he doesn't enjoy doing it. If a parent spanks a child with anger, the child may percieve it as hate and that make cause him to fear his own parent.
- Julio Cesar
January 14, 2009 7:29PM
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Hogwash? more like child abuse
Spanking is unacceptable, regardless of the good will behind it, violence towards a child will only result in increased anger. I believe that spanking sparks from an adult insecurity and unwillingness to abide by civility and instead uses a form of pain and humiliation in order to teach children how to act. Now since when have either of those has worked? Humiliation will end up with cases like the Korean student who shot those people at VA tech, and pain will end in an animalistic intent to avoid pain, but what happens if the source of pain no longer occurs? then it renders that treatment noneffective.
- Spikeman
January 24, 2009 10:48AM
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Spanking is effective
Spanking children may not nessesarily be acceptable, but it is definitely effective. I don't think it hurt me, in fact, it helped me in the long-run. It made me look at consequences, things kids don't normally think about. Spanking creates authority as a parent and it will make your child respect you. If children don't obey or respect their parents, who will they obey or respect? Raising children starts at a young age. I definitely don't encouage abuse and your children shouldn't fear you, but they should acknowledge you. You can warn them and threaten them, but they have to know that you are serious. I was always told, "Listen, or you'll have to feel it." I listened when I was told, and now, I'm grateful I was raised like that because I feel now I am much more respectful to my peers and my elders especially. Essentially it's up to the parents, it's your kid.
- ice cream man
February 7, 2009 11:59PM
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Spanking is not the actual punishment
As one who was spanked as a child, I do feel that it is an effective form of discipline. All of this controversy arises due to the various definitions of spanking . Spanking and child abuse are two completely different stories. Spanking is not a beating – in fact, spanking is not even the punishment itself. Spanking is the first step in the discipline process. When a child is in the midst of breaking a rule, a quick tap on the butt gets their attention. This spank is not the punishment, but it stops the child in their tracks and makes them listen to what the parent has to say. The actual punishment then ensues, coming in the form of words. A parent can tell the child what they did wrong, that they broke a rule, and send them to their room, no harm done. A child’s tears do not come from the smart of the smack, but from the guilt of disrespecting their parents and knowing they did wrong.
- kas43091
February 8, 2009 6:28PM
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Spanking
As a child, I was never spanked and as a parent I don't believe I will spank my children. I think that for most children there are alternative methods of punishment. However, I am not here to argue against spanking . While I am not personal a fan of spanking I believe parents should be allowed to raise their children how they think proper. Like all things, parents should only spank children in moderation. An occasional spanking when your child has done somethign completely unnacceptable is very effective in getting their attention and priming them for a lesson you need to teach them.
- EvanD
February 20, 2009 9:14AM
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Spanking is bad
If your child is acting up and not behaving well it is because you are not doing a good job as a parent. Spanking hurts, spanking decreases self esteem, so instead of hitting your child, you should teach them what is wrong and right by talking and giving good examples.
- georgi
February 25, 2009 7:08PM
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The Scientific Answer to the Question
"There is clear research evidence that physical punishment puts children at risk for negative outcomes, including increased antisocial behavior and mental health problems." Enough said.
- MKnox
March 19, 2009 10:58AM
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Spanking is NEVER okay.
You can call it "tough love" all you want, but spanking is an absolutely unacceptable form of discipline . The same goes for the belt, paddle, smacking with the hand, or any physical means of punishment on any part of a child's body. It's assault, and I see it as abuse.
I remember when I was little, my mother and father would do that regularly to me. Sometimes they had to chase me around the house and my father would hold me still when he caught me. Sometimes I ran, locked myself in the bathroom and they would coax me out and then do it. And guess what? I hate them with such contempt they might as well be uncivilized savages. I've never forgiven them to this day and never will. And this was over 15 years ago.
I believed as civilized people, we can teach our children right from wrong without beating (spanking, swatting, whatever you want to call it) them into obedience. They say that children who went through this are more likely to have emotional disorders, more aggressive, and likely to be abusers themselves.
This goes beyond teaching them that violence is acceptable to get your way. Children may be off the wall, drive people crazy, have poor self control over what they do, but in the end they're still people and capable of reason. They're not some rag doll you can swat around out of your own frustration and belief of discipline.
- A User
April 3, 2009 1:40PM
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Spanking is never okay 2
People who still believe in spanking keep saying that kids are out of control these days. About how disrepectful they are, how sweary they are, how aggressive they are.
Have they ever stopped to think of other reasons than accusing people who don't spank? Like how much stress and pressure kids are under these days, under pressure to grow up so fast, how kids tend to act out when they're under so much stress and pressure, how polluted and congested the environment is that affect their behavior, how they don't even have time to play and be kids, demands, routines. Or maybe the people around them are a bad influence and it's not disclipine.
- A User
April 3, 2009 1:45PM
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Spanking is OKAY!!!! (...to a point)
Just because people spank their children , doesn't mean that they are going to turn out to be horrible people. It actually makes them turn out better. If a parent uses this to their advantage too much, then it can turn out bad, however, it helps children grow up to know what they are not supposed to do.
In my school, there are very few of my classmates who grew up with spanking . They are the ones who are smoking, doing drugs , having sex, etc... Their parents let them do whatever they want and when they don't obey their rules, they just take their video games away or their phones away. As soon as they get them back, they continue to their same patterns. They aren't punished enough. Spanking is a natural way to show harm and what will happen if they do something that they know is bad. All the other methods of punishment help, but they are not permanent and as soon as they get on their own, they work in what they want to do and sooner or later their careless deeds will come back to them. But by then, it is too late for the parents to help them.
I believe that a parent should do all they can to help their children in life even if it means spanking them and being a parent. A mother and a father should be parents, NOT friends. Friends is something that comes with the respect of following their rules (as long as they are reasonable).
- spiderpickle
April 24, 2009 5:39PM
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Bottom Line
Everything is good in moderation.
Don't type something stupid like "what about genocide." The fact that we are all here on this forum indicates that we all believe that ourselves are mature enough to discuss critical issues.
Spanking is not abuse, it is negative reinforcement to acts that aren't accepted in modern society . No you shouldn't spank our kid for touching an electrical socket (someone put something that alluded to that). If a child touches an electrical socket and gets a shock, your first instinct is to make sure they aren't hurt. The shock is all the "no" that child needs to keep them from that socket.
A good spanking will keep a child in line. All of these fussy kids in stores complaining about not getting what they want really need to have a conversation with their parents about money and the world not being fair. If they keep complaining, then they need a good smack to tell them "hey, I told you once and I SHOULDN'T have to tell you again." Children have the ability to reason. If they didn't, we would all be sitting in a cave with our parents and grandparents and so on and there would be less people on earth and more starvation. The fact that a child reasons is the basic building block to their life and their impact in the world. It hurts > I cry. Cant move > I squirm. Hungry > I get food . These are basic instincts.
There is a point when a spanking can be abuse. I these cases the parents don't tend to spank. In cases of abuse, parents treat their children like adults and beat them.
Was i spanked as a child? Hell yes. Was I beat as a child? No. If I did something wrong I was properly punished.
- TheOni
April 30, 2009 5:47PM
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Bad tradition
Most compelling of all reasons not to spank are the following (which can be verified by people who were actually spanked themselves by doing a little research):
“...The buttocks are the locus for the induction of pain in a child. We are familiar with the argument that it is a safe ‘locus’ for spanking . However, the anal region is also the major erotic region at precisely the time the child is likely to be beaten there. Thus it is aptly chosen to achieve the result of deranged sexuality in adulthood...” 1971 (p. 113)
David Bakan, Slaughter of the Innocents,1971 (p. 113)
“Advocates of corporal punishment in schools should examine very carefully the weight of evidence now available and, particularly in light of the pornographic component, consider whether they can justify the continuation of a system with such a capacity for exciting unhealthy interest.”
British Psychological Society, “Report on Corporal Punishment in Schools” (1980)
“But what you would not so readily believe upon my affirmation, was that there are persons who are stimulated to venery by strokes of rods, and worked up into a flame of lust by blows... A strange instance what a power the force of education has in grafting inveterate ill habits on our morals...”
Johann Heinrich Meibom, physician, 1629
Unpleasant as this information is, we do our children a great disservice when we fail to acknowledge its truth.
Had we not turned a blind eye to the unpleasant phenomena of clergy abuse of children 40-50 years ago, many children would have been spared its devastating consequences. Peace.
- PDeverit
May 5, 2009 5:26PM
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Visual For " 'Spanking', The Right Way To Do It"
Can someone please produce a non-pornographic photo or video clip of the "Right Way To Do It". A visual aid to teach people the how-to's? Then tell me why you prefer this inherited habit over learning other proven discipline strategies.
For further thought, read the article "NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say " by Lesli Taylor, M.D. and Adah Maurer, Ph. D., as people considered a "safe" locus for the induction of pain in a child.
- PDeverit
May 8, 2009 8:54AM
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Inherited Bad Habit
Child buttock-beating for the purpose of gaining compliance is nothing more than an inherited bad habit.
Its a good idea for people to take a look at what they are doing, and learn how to DISCIPLINE instead of hit.
I think the reason why television shows like "Supernanny" and "Dr. Phil" are so popular is because that is what many (not all) people are trying to do.
There are several reasons why hitting children isn't a good idea. If one doesn't have time to read volumes and volumes of literature on the subject, here are some good, quick reads recommended by professionals:
Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak
The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson
NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say
by Lesli Taylor M.D., and Adah Maurer Ph.D.
- PDeverit
May 22, 2009 9:19PM
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yes it is Acceptable
i disagree with poeple who say it will casue mental issues, it will teach them to hit, and of coarse it doesnt do anything. well i think your wrong because kids who are just yelled at or "talked to sternly" end up being bratty and disrespectful. time outs never work becasue all the parents do is tell them sto do is sit in the corner for 5 min or so. it doesnt teach them anything the time out doesnt stick to the child like a spanking would. no i do agree that hitting anywhere else but them butt or mouth is wrong and the use of tools such as paddles belts or such is abusive adn can cause probelms but a little spanking or slapping them in the mouth does not cause them to be disfunctional....
tell me the truth am i wrong or right about this???
- maymay2k12
May 26, 2009 10:21PM
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You're wrong
You aren't correct. Talking sternly, and giving out little punishments does work wonders for many children . Like my friend. Her parents never spanked her, and she always used to stand first in class. She was never rude, and she was my best friend. Unlike my parents, who always used to spank my bottom with a steel ruler. It hurt!
Once I talked rudely to Mom. She gave my bottom a dozen spankings with the same thin & sharp steel ruler my parents use for me and my brother and locked me in the small hot and stuffy room on the terrace for the whole afternoon with just a bottle of water, and no food . That room what barely wide enough for me to lie down, and I was so hot and bored. Plus, it was dark, and there was no one to talk to. I was home in the school holidays then.
Mother let me out only in the evening, after she'd locked me in for about 6-7 hours. Even after that she gave me the choice that:
1. I promise never to talk rudely to anyone, and if I do, I'd be locked in for the WHOLE DAY, plus, of course, the spanking and any other punishment she wishes to give.
2. I be spanked again and be grounded for a week.
- Michelle S
June 5, 2009 11:43AM
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No way! No spanking should be allowed!
I don't think spanking or caning should be allowed at all.
I used to study at a boarding school, where we were punished at the smallest mistakes.
Once at the dinner table, I dropped a plate by mistake. It crashed on the floor and broke. I wasn't allowed to finish my food and was spanked on my bare buttocks by a mistress in front of everyone, in the dining hall itself. It was so embarrassing, and I was made to stand facing the wall exposing my red bottom till the last of the students finished their food and left the room.
After that I had to eat food sitting on the floor for a whole month.
I seriously don't think that this was fair. Dropping a plate is a mistake, and it is innocent. Did I drop it on purpose? Yet I was spanked till I screamed. NOT FAIR!
- Michelle S
June 5, 2009 10:40AM
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spanking acceptable..
I am sixteen years old and I was spanked as a small child. I do not feel resentment, anger, or bitterness of any kind towards my parents because they spanked me. In fact, I feel gratitude. I was spanked only a handful of times as a child, and only for serious offenses. I agree that spanking merely because the parent is exasperated with unruly behavior is a weak method of reigning in said behavior, but spanking in limited doses is very beneficial.
I was spanked once for repeatedly lying to my kindergarten teacher. I didn't like the lunch packed for me so I told her I had no lunch after throwing mine out and then was given a bagel to eat instead. Obviously what I did was terrible: I wasted food day after day and lied to my teachers. I was spanked for this, and the argument that I did not repeat the behavior because I feared to be punished is not strictly true. My parents explained exactly why what I did was wrong, and then I was spanked for it.
To this day, the lessons I learned from being spanked are the strongest. I am a high honor roll student, I have never had a detention in my life, and I have a healthy social life. The only thing brought upon me through spanking is a strong code of morals--not emotional problems.
Overall, there is a definitely a line that should be drawn. I whole-heartedly agree with those who state that spanking for the littlest offense is out of line. Of course it is! But if a child lies, steals, or cheats, it must be made extremely clear that these actions are the worst, and spanking is sometimes the best way to do so.
- hilary93
July 3, 2009 12:04PM
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no.
Spanking is only appropriate for adults =)
- lux113
July 16, 2009 8:26AM
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i never much cared for whipping cream
physical violence as a deterrent seems to only defeat the purpose, and besides once they build up a tolerance it will only lead to enjoyment as an adult.
- isotope
August 13, 2009 12:48AM
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Is Spanking an Acceptable Form of Discipline?
I say yes you have all these so called EXPERTS telling you it does not work.They just don't know the facts but still think they do I got whoopins with belts my son got them and my dad did and all 9 uncle's and countless cousins guess what we all turned out fine and we didn't shoot any schools up either. Aside from a bruise here and there they work and if you ask me that's what is wrong with society welfare and the law need to stay alittle more out of it a whooping is not abuse
- muffmonster36
September 2, 2009 11:16AM
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The Poetry of Spanking
It's interesting isn't it, that when we Google " spanking " we find a list of porn sites and scandals. If that doesn't put the practice of spanking into question, perhaps these poems-- from one who was "spanked"--will:
http://kellysalasin.wordpress.com/category/writing/family-life/spanking /
- Kelly Salasin September 10, 2009 9:15AM
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That didn't describe a spanking.
That described a beating.
- LagerHead
September 14, 2009 9:27AM
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This confuses me.
"We shouldn't spank children because it teaches them to hit."
This stance confuses me. By the same logic governments shouldn't imprison inmates because it teaches them to hold people against their will.
Spanking, when done properly teaches children that all rules have exceptions. And all do. "You can't kill someone, unless he was going to kill you first." and "You can't drive over the speed limit, unless you have a police escort." or "You shouldn't ever walk around with your finger on the trigger of a gun, unless there are known hostiles near by."
just as "You shouldn't hit unless every other option has been exhausted."
A lot of you seem to be confusing senseless beatings with spankings. a spanking in scenario goes like this.
Now Johny, I told you not to throw the ball in the house.
I know dad.
I grounded you for it
I know
I warned you that you would break something
I know
and now you've broken your grandma's lamp.
I know.
Grab your ankles.
a beating goes
What the hell Johny
It was an accident!
*Dad proceeds to beat the tar out of Johny.*
A spanking is done in a clear, level headed manner. The spankee understands the punishment, and what they did to deserve it. The spanker has explained to the child why they are getting the punishment, or will explain after they have gotten the attention of the child.
A spanking has a limited, pre-decided limit of lickings the parent will give to the child, and the strength of the blows is also controlled. A beating goes until the parent is tired.
Growing up I received spankings and a single beating. The spankings helped reinforce that I for sure shouldn't do something unless it is worth it, and the beating... I had that coming. Big time.
I still remember the beating. I was just going into puberty and had picked a fight with my step dad. I started to hit him and when he finally hit me back I made a sneer and told him I was off to call CPS on him. I still don't know where mom came from, or where she got that belt, but I sure got straitened out by that. The belt was a cheap plastic one, and cut me all over my back and arms. The cuts hurt and helped me to think about what I had done. For about a month.
now many years latter I'm great friends with my step dad. I realized that I was rebelling against him because he wasn't my real dad, but I've grown very distant from my real dad, as I've started to realize, he just never really cared all that much.
I'll finish with a summary of this. Spankings, and even beatings are just another set of tools in the parents tool box. If you took away a tool from a mechanic there's a good chance he wont get the job done right, just as if you take a tool away from a parent there is a chance that they also wont get the job done right. In a good case they won't have to use them too often, as was my case. In a great case they wont ever have to use them at all. If you never need to spank your child then great. If spanking is ineffective don't use it. If that's all they'll respond to I recommend a plastic belt.
- Nivarion
September 30, 2009 1:02AM
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mother
Spanking is against the law in Denmark. Spock wrote a book on how to care for children without hitting them.or angrilyy screaming which psychologically injure the child for life, drug use , over eating and frigidity..The English invented hitting and screaming as a child rearing method, and America copied it from them. Danish stand back and permit the child everything. The Dutch do nothing when their children cry, but stand in respect.
- bartolomeo7
October 8, 2009 11:06AM
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Spanking is Deviant
The act of spanking actually contributes to sexual promiscuity and deviancy in later life. The buttucks is an errogenous zone, a child's "private part". It's not only barbaric and a bad example on how one should deal when frustrated, it's emotionally and pschologically damaging to your child's present and future well-being.
I would like to ask the people who support spanking if they are talking about a gentle swat or a beating because their is a range of damage that can be done to a child. The former is less psychological damage and the latter is extreme with sociopathic, psychopathic, anti-social, personality disorder with sexual deviancy.
- jwils523
October 8, 2009 5:10PM
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