Do you suffer from chronic pain? Maybe acupuncture is just what the doctor ordered. Millions of people say that acupuncture has alleviated their suffering and boosted their bodies, but others insist that it's more rooted in belief than scientific fact. Is acupuncture really the cure for what ails you, or does it only turn you into a human pincushion?
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This list of conditions is reproduced verbatim on a variety of websites, not all specific to acupuncture. While some of them list sources for the information, they are not all the same source and none of the listed sources that I explored could be confirmed. You had better support this post quick!
- Adam Hammond
September 4, 2008 4:46PM
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You are CORRECT Dr. Novella that I used NCCAM incorrectly (I'm used to being involved with that entity), it was NIH at the time of the WHO consensus statement. I found an updated (1997) WHO/NIH Acupuncture consensus statement ( http://consensus.nih.gov/1997/1997Acupuncture107html.htm ) that states under CONCLUSIONS that "However, promising results have emerged, for example, showing efficacy of acupuncture in adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and in postoperative dental pain. There are other situations such as addiction, stroke rehabilitation, headache, menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, osteoarthritis, low back pain, carpal tunnel syndrome, and asthma, in which acupuncture may be useful as an adjunct treatment or an acceptable alternative or be included in a comprehensive management program."
- Bill Reddy September 7, 2008 6:04PM
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The WHO list is very much one based on the wishful thinking of the WHO panel of acupuncture. It's a political but not an evidence-based document - more details about it in our book "Trick or Treatment?: Alternative Medicine on Trial." Bantham Press, London 2008
- Edzard Ernst
September 15, 2008 2:51AM
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The number of articles in PubMed mentioning the word acupuncture has nothing whatsoever to do with the scientific consensus on acupuncture. (There are almost as many articles containing the word "heroin," for example, but I doubt you would accept that as evidence of heroin's curative powers.) You say, "That doesn’t mean ALL of the articles are favorable toward acupuncture, but it demonstrates that there is a significant amount of research on the topic." Yes, fine, but what does the research say? That's what actually matters.
You criticize studies done by MDs with only 200 hours of training in acupuncture. I have two areas of questions about this. First, how much training would you say is sufficient? 200 hours seems like a long time -- what is it that can't be conveyed or learned in that length of training? On a related note, how much training does a typical acupuncturist have before starting a practice? Second, what portion of these tests were performed by doctors you consider insufficiently trained? How do their results compare to those obtained by MDs who you would consider adequately trained, or who used trained acupuncturists in their studies?
- thoughtcounts Z September 4, 2008 11:12AM
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I absolutely disagree with MD's with only 200 hours of training being the "definitive source of judgement" on the efficacy of acupuncture. Acupuncture, like many branches of medicine, has levels and depths of knowledge, training, experience and understanding. As well as a wide variety of styles and modalities. For example there is a vast difference between simple ear & hand acupuncture, and Classical Five-Element Acupuncture. Just as there is a difference between going to a Nurse Practioner to treat a simple cold, and going to a cardiologist for heart surgery.
My husband has both a Master's Degree in Traditional Oriental Medicine from PCOM, as well as an additional full year certification from The Institute of Classical Five-Element Acupuncture, and certification from the University of Chengdu in China, and is a Dipl. OM from NCCAOM. And a Bachelor's in Psychology. This means that he has studied "medicine" for 7+ years, and specifically studied and trained in Oriental Medicine and Acupuncture for 3+ of those years. All before being sucessfully in practice. And I wouldn't even begin to consider him an "expert". Rather there are those who have even more years of education and training and practice experience that he defers to and still learns from at the Worsley Institute.
So, for MDs, or anyone else, not fully trained and educated in all of the history, foundations, theory, and practical application of Traditional Oriental Medicine, and the wide variety of styles of Acupuncture, to just take a 200 hour course and then be allowed to make definitive judgements and be considered an expert, is ludicrous.
That would be like having a Massage Therapist, pass judgement on the efficacy of a cardiology treatment.
- Aurora September 12, 2008 8:38AM
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What do we mean when we say "acupuncture"? Presumably, acupuncture is what you get when you go to see an acupuncturist. What are they doing? Somehow I doubt that every acupuncturist you can find in the phone book has a decade or more of training, or whatever is enough to be considered an expert in your eyes.
I have no problem with the idea that only trained experts can perform acupuncture correctly. I was asking for information about what it takes to be considered an expert. Clearly the better formulation of an experiment is not for a medical researcher to try to learn acupuncture hastily and then do it themselves, but rather to observe acupuncturists in the lab. I was asking about what proportion of studies involved hastily-trained MDs compared to the proportion that used trained acupuncturists, because calling out a small minority of poorly formulated studies in order to condemn the entirety of research on the topic is a very fallacious way of arguing.
- thoughtcounts Z September 14, 2008 11:04AM
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Hi Z - while it is true that not "every acupuncturist in the phone book" has the extensive decade or more of training and experience in the US, there are still plenty of those that do have the credentials I personally consider to be requirements. The very minimum would be having passed the testing and required clinicals for status as a Diplomate of T.O.M or of Acupuncture, from the NCCAOM. I also think a minimum of a Master's Degree in Oriental Medicine is important, as well as 5 years in practice, and critical peer review, and continuing education, before one is qualified to be used as an acupuncturist in a study of the efficacy of acupuncture. But those are just my personal opinions. Also, while there are not as many who would qualify here in the US, there are thousands who do in Asia, and in Europe.
The problem has never been that there aren't enough qualified acupuncturists to conduct a study, but rather that there have not been enough studies done, and done well. Much like we know very little about Women's health compared to men's because the vast majority of studies have been done on men. Until only recently we really didn't even understand the vast differences between men and women related to the most studied illness out there - Heart Disease.
Unfortunately, the very nature of "scientific medical studies" for all their posturing, is a nature of bias and blind discrimination. Which makes it a fairly easy and comfortable position for those who disparage or deny the efficacy of alternative medicines to just sit back and say "Where's the evidence? Where's the "respectable believable data", when they all know very well that there isn't much we can point to, not because it doesn't work, but because the studies don't exist yet. And they don't exist yet because no one has had the financial incentive to do the studies. Just the opposite, Western Medicine has every reason to refute, repress, and refuse to examine in an unbiased and fair manner the benefits of alternatives that take money out of their pockets. And the "Journals" that represent that powerful Bloc, have no reason to publish or support any studies that encourage competition.
And frankly, only in recent history (very recent mostly still in progress and waiting to be published) have studies been done, and are still being done. So the body of "acceptable" evidence is new, emerging, growing, and that takes TIME. And then when the studies are published those who wish to dispute our validity will still do so, just by claiming the studies are not legitimate "enough". Meanwhile, Western Medicine will continue to do harm in the name of healing, and Pharmaceutical companies will continue to claim that their medicines are "proven in clincial studies" to be effective, only to have to recall them 5 years later, and battle class-action lawsuits against those they have harmed or killed.
Since it is only these kinds of "studies" that are considered acceptable, I would have to say this whole argument of "where's the evidence" is a total farce.
Someday these people will accept that the world is round, men landed on the moon, the earth circles the sun, and acupuncture works. Until then, we will just keep healing our patients and not really caring about the detractors who have an agenda and a closed-mind.
- Aurora September 19, 2008 11:13AM
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Aurora wrote "My husband has ..."
Where is the reliable evidence that anything has or does actually works. Anecdote and testimonial do not count. Why argue? Just present the data ...
- JJM September 18, 2008 3:18PM
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You're determined to deny anything and everything, you don't want evidence, and you already know (as I stated above) that the bias in "science" has not allowed such studies to exist yet. The only thing "medical science" studies is ways to make more $$. If there is no money to be made by Western Medicine, then there is no funding for a study, and no study happens. We in alternative medicine are working on it now, at our own expense, our own associations and groups are funding and conducting studies. Not because we need to prove to ourselves that it works, but because without the studies we can't defend ourselves against those who not too long ago were the very ones using the leeches and bleeding people's feet. I find it hilarious that the very branch of medicine most known for using "Snake oil" and superstitions, is now attacking systems time honored and proven for 5000 years.
Here are some studies, and then you can all continue on with your petty arguing, as Im certain you won't find any of these studies meet your "rigourous demands" anyway. I'm personally way to busy with our patients to continue in these discussions of discrimination any more.
There are studies on the effectiveness of acupuncture on almost everything from cancer to HIV to allergies and gynecology on this web page for anyone who would like to see for themselves, I'm not posting all of them... http://acupuncture.com/research /#1
http://acupuncture.com/newsletters/m_sept08/res.htm
Study on Effects of Different Acupuncture Manipulation Methods at Neiguan (PC 6) on Hand Spasm in Stroke Patient
Wang LC, et al. Department of Neurology, Affiliated Hospital of Integrated Chinese Medicine and Western Medicine of Hebei University of Medical Sciences, Cangzhou 061001, China. wanglichun1976@163.com
Effect of Acupuncture at Three Acupoints of Eye on Bell’s Palsy
Zhou CD, et al. Section of Rehabilitation, Guangdong Province Hospital of Integrated Chinese Medicine and Western Medicine, Foshan 528200, China. zcd401@126.com
Here is a paper too long to paste here, so here is the citation, and here is the link for anyone who wishes to view it -
http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089 /acm.1996.2.79
To cite this paper:
George Thomas Lewith, Charles Vincent. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. February 1, 1996, 2(1): 79-90. doi:10.1089/acm.1996.2.79.
Ok, I'm done here, this was a mildly amusing experience.
- Aurora September 19, 2008 11:49AM
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Aurora,
There is a hierarchy of the quality of magazines/journals that is well-established. Your citations lead to the lowest quality magazines. Long experience tells me that these publications are not worth reviewing/consulting.
The question remains- can you cite "high quality" (that is, reliable) research in scientific journals concerning humans?
- JJM September 19, 2008 12:59PM
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200 hours is enough time to learn the basics of theory and how to not hurt anyone by needling their internal organs. By contrast, California requires a minimum of 3000 ( three thousand ) hours of training, of which about 1000 are clinic hours spent observing and practicing the medicine, and then a very hard exam. That is just what's required to practice legally. A new graduate is about as good a practitioner of chinese medicine as you were good at driving right after you got your license: you probably won't get anyone killed, but you've got a long way to go before you could be called an expert.
- devinv September 18, 2008 11:34PM
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Below is the abstract of the study cited by Bill Reddy:
It is published in the Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine, http://www.jtcm.com/index.html
Out of 13,000 articles, why would you choose to highlight this one?
Ovulatory dysfunction is commonly seen in gynecology clinic. It may cause infertility, amenia, functional uterine bleeding and a variety of complications. This research according to TCM theory records treating with acupuncture 34 patients suffering from ovulatory dysfunction. Changes in clinical symptoms and some relative targets are reported, plus findings in animal experiments. The effect of acupuncture in improving ovulation and the rationale are discussed. According to TCM theory concerning the generative and physiologic axis of women, this research involved the following points: Ganshu (UB 18), Shenshu (UB 23), Guanyuan (Ren 4), Zhongji (Ren 3), and Sanyinjiao (Sp 6). The reinforcement and reduction of acupuncture enables it to strengthen liver and kidney. Through the Chong and Ren channels it nourishes uterus to adjust the patient's axis function and recover ovulation. Treated on an average of 30 times, the patients' symptoms improved to varying degrees. The marked effective rate was 35.29%, the total effective rate being 82.35%. BBT, VS, CMS, and B ultrasonic picture all improved to some degree. The results also showed that acupuncture may adjust FSH, LH, and E2 in two directions and raise the progesterone level, bringing them to normal. The animal experiments confirmed this result. Results showed that acupuncture may adjust endocrine function of the generative and physiologic axis of women, thus stimulating ovulation. The results of this research will provide some scientific basis for treating and further studying this disorder.
- Adam Hammond September 4, 2008 4:59PM
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Mr. Hammond, about the only thing a person can determine from that abstract is that the study had to few subjects to support any conclusion. It also appears that the study was not randomized and controlled, and, therefore, unblinded (although, they don't bother to mention those things). I could go on.
R. Barker Bausell has authored an excellent book (Snake Oil Science) on what constitutes good research. He particularly focuses on acupuncture, and the fact that the best evidence shows it works no better than placebo.
- JJM September 5, 2008 2:19AM
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My point in posting that abstract was to allow the people here to see the flawed nature of the study. Bill Reddy claims that there is tremendous evidence. He should show us some of it!
- Adam Hammond September 5, 2008 6:52AM
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If one is commited to the narrow principles of 'evidence based medicine' then you will probably never be convinced of the efficacy of traditional acupuncture. As a psychiatric nurse I know that there are many areas of orthodox medicine that can never be 100% verified by double blind placebo controlled trials.
One problem often cited is that traditional acupuncture individualizes the treatment - many of us were quite surprised at the positive results in the trial of Pericardium 6 for post operative nausea because we do not expect one point done in every case to be effective.
- AAPrescott September 11, 2008 3:50PM
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JJM - I agree that Snake Oil Science is an excellent book and from it (and a little common sense) we can ask for the following:
Has there ever been a double blind placebo controlled trial of acupuncture with more that 100 participants per group, a low attrition rate, controlled for natural history which tests in one group all that constitutes a treatment (time spent with accupuncturist in 'consultation', maybe massage, relaxing to soft music etc) followed by the actual acupuncture, compared to:
All of the above, including the acupuncture but where the acupuncture is performed on parts of the body that would be consistent with acupuncture but not actually on the meridians etc. specified with the condition?
I admit that this would be difficult to double blind, but it does not rely on non-penetrating needles. and it is important to remember that any errors e.g. a patient knowing they are in the placebo group will work in favor of acupuncture being true.
If anyone knows of any such trials, please post them along with a URL.
- MrPogle September 8, 2008 2:09PM
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I agree with AAPrescott above. Double-blind placebo controlled studies are pointless with regard to acupuncture. If 100 different patients with the same Western medical diagnosis come for real acupuncture, they will likely get 100 different treatments, because acupuncture does not treat the narrowly-defined condition, but instead treats the whole person according to the energetic configuration presented in the present moment; persons are as individual as snowflakes, and a particular configuration today is gone tomorrow. You can't run a double-blind study that way. The research has already been done for the past 3000 years at least, and it's called experiential research. My knee quit hurting, the degeneration reversed itself, and I don't need surgery anymore. And you want to say, "Prove it!" How pointless.
- earthwater September 11, 2008 5:54PM
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"but instead treats the whole person according to the energetic configuration presented in the present moment". And just how can this energy be measured or in any way independently observed?
As for people being different, of course they are but the very fact that we can label something as "acupuncture" means that we have a repeatable process that can be measured against another. Make all the treatments unique, but take the one thing that is common to them all i.e. the actual needle insertion part and make a very minor change i.e. move them from so called meridians to ransom places and see what happens. Nothing in your post suggests this can't be done and if acupuncture really worked then it would pass this test with flying colors.
If anyone replies to this, don't forget to answer the first point too!
- MrPogle September 11, 2008 8:18PM
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In trying to answer your first point someone had already mentioned the studies of Becker and electrical properties of living organisms. But waxing a little philosophical I could point out that science (consensus) is suggesting that 90%+ of energy and matter in the universe seems to be missing - we believe it is there because otherwise the equations don't work but we haven't been able to detect it. The Chinese apparently discovered, and had a more accurate measurement of the circulation of blood well before Harvey why is it hard to believe that they discovered something else that we have not caught up with yet?
Manfred Porkert has (controversialy) argued that Chinese Medicine is scientific. He suggests that quantitative measurement is easily agreed uupon. But qualitative measures present difficulty. But if there are principles (Yin/Yang, Five Phases) that are applied by different people who independently come up with consistent answers when applying those principles then those principles are scientific even though they do not lend themselves to fit a narrow definition of the scientific method.
- AAPrescott September 12, 2008 9:23AM
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"I could point out that science (consensus) is suggesting that 90%+ of energy and matter in the universe seems to be missing - we believe it is there because otherwise the equations don't work but we haven't been able to detect it."
What on earth (or not) has this got to do with acupuncture? Don't tell me... here is some weird form of energy we don't fully understand; and so called 'energy' in acupuncture would, if it existed, also be something we don't understand therefore one explains the other!
This ranks along with quantum mechanics being used to 'explain' all sorts of nonsense out there from being psychic to talking to the dead.
I think we can do better than this.
- MrPogle September 12, 2008 11:17AM
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There is a basic difference in world view here. Chinese traditional thought is an amazing coherent system, the medicine is the application of the cosmological and philosophical system. So Qi, Yin/Yang, Five Phases describe the macrocosm and microcosm. This is mediaeval type thinking but I do not use that derogatively. Qi is the fundamental 'substance' of the universe that arises out of the void, matter is solidified Qi. Physiological Qi (the concern of medicine) is the motive force (electricity) of the living organism. You may find this preposterous, but I don't, I consider Western thought as suffereing from a bifurcation that occured in some hundreds of years ago that is referred to as the Cartesian division. The central question that divides many is: is the strange world of quantum physics something that only matters on the extremes, and our world is actually Newtonian to all intents and purposes or do the discoveries of modern physics actually have a bearing on the world we experience and perhaps begin to explain some of the anomalies that we actually experience.
- AAPrescott September 12, 2008 12:05PM
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I began reading your post and assumed you were writing a parody of yourself, but no, you're serious. Either way, to bring things back on topic, if any intervention, be it CAM or Western, claims to make any difference then this should be measurable, else how would the patient know that such a difference had been made? And this brings me right back to the original question asking for the results of such trials.
- MrPogle September 12, 2008 12:28PM
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I completely agree that I think that this sort of test would be the best way to do so. To have three test groups, all unaware of which group they are in, with a measurable issue, such as hypertension, or pain awareness, or even something that limits range of motion. Have one group treated with actual needle insertion in the right points (i.e. a genuine treatment), no electro, no other added modalities. Have the second group receive what would be a "genuine treatment" as far as using the right points, but not insert needles, rather use the newly created "study" needles that do not puncture the skin. And then have the third group where needles are inserted in Non-point, off meridian locations.
That would be a good study.
Also, being that my husband has treated myself, my family, friends and children, in non-office settings, with nothing but needles. No comfy table, no soothing music, in all kinds of odd locations and under odd circumstances, and still achieved the same results. The office settings just help people be more comfortable. But even in an uncomfortable setting I personally know that the needles still work.
- Aurora September 12, 2008 9:23AM
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This is called the placebo effect.
You don't need the comfy surroundings, just a treatment, any treatment that you believe has an effect.
- MrPogle September 12, 2008 11:20AM
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I had worked at Columbia University School of Nursing for 5 years on 2 NIH funded research studies testing the efficacy of Acupuncture in HIV+ related disorders. It was a double blinded controlled study where patients were randomly placed in either the real or control group. The study results are being written as we speak in FAVOR of Acupuncture and Moxibustion for Diarrhea. There were 2 other studies that are not finished but I can honestly say that I saw wonderful results in the patients that were receiving the treatments, as I was not blinded in this study.
- purekarm76 September 12, 2008 2:40PM
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Actually just to clarify - I did not intend to say that they are pointless. I recognize their value. But I do see it as a very narrow application of scientific method that sometimes has problems in applicaton. There are political problems and practical problems. Heisenberg is said to have said that: "What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning."
- AAPrescott September 12, 2008 9:00AM
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The point is that acupuncture always fails rigorous studies- so, rather than admit it is useless, you wish to argue that rigorous studies don't work. Rigorous studies are proven to work, acupuncture is not.
- JJM September 18, 2008 3:44PM
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I was replying to a previous posting and my reply got displaced in the thread. I was saying that I DID NOT say they were pointless just limited.
- AAPrescott October 8, 2008 1:35PM
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Yes, there are plenty of articles - and if you summarize this evidence it amounts to very little evidence indeed: There is no solid proof that acupuncture is effective beyond a placebo effect for anything other than pain and nausea.
- Edzard Ernst September 15, 2008 2:57AM
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if you have ever been in serious pain, or been seriously nauseous, how could you hold this evidence in such low esteem? I'm half joking here, but I'm also half serious. The last time I was extremely nauseous and dry heaving, I would have taken anything to feel better. This is an important point. alleviating suffering is one of the highest callings, some would say the highest.
- devinv September 18, 2008 11:42PM
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The vast majority of medications people take are for pain management and digestive problems... hello? And yet they are not effective enough to keep people from seeking out something better, like acupuncture.
- Aurora September 19, 2008 12:09PM
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Do you have any reliable evidence that people benefit from acupuncture beyond placebo? That is the topic.
- JJM September 19, 2008 1:03PM
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Well to be precise, the topic is whether or not acupuncture works, not, do you have any reliable evidence, with stress being on the word reliable. I understand that the gold standard for scientific knowledge is the double blind experimental study, and I venture to guess that is what you mean by reliable. The more I study acupuncture and the more I read about how it is being researched, the less sure I am that such studies will give an accurate representation of how effective acupuncture is. I'll have to see how it plays out. But for me the most reliable evidence has usually come from my own experience and that is what I'm basing my opinion on. Do you have any personal experience with acupuncture?
- devinv September 26, 2008 9:09PM
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We did not make progress in medicine till we realized how easily we fooled ourselves with "experience." "Experience" supported scalding, bleeding, purgatives (exceedingly unpleasant, toxic medications), trepaning (drilling holes in the skull) and much more. Scientifically controlled studies (and advances in the understanding of anatomy, physiology and pharmacology) showed us that was all nonsense.
Well-done studies of acupuncture show that it is equally useless. I am underwhelmed by your claims of "experience."
- JJM September 29, 2008 2:16PM
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I really was asking a question, you don't have to answer if you don't want to.
- devinv September 30, 2008 1:11PM
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You overstate the case considerably. Many major advances in modern medicine and public health occured without double blind controlled studies. Removing a handle from a pump on a London well brought cholera under control. Sugeons washing their hands before delivering babies after visiting the morgue reduced sepsis in pregnancy. All dismissed as cranks at the time.
- AAPrescott October 8, 2008 1:40PM
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There are 4 meta analyses done in 2008 examining the effect of acupuncture on IVF outcomes. 2 have been published, a third is about to be published as a Cockrane Review. The fourth is one done by researchers in Adelaide Australia, who published some of the acupuncture and IVF outcomes research in 2006 in Fertility and Sterility.
3 out of the 4 show a significant positive effect for acupuncture.
The only one to show a negative effect is the one mentioned by Steven Novella.
This particular meta analysis included one trial of quite different design, which all the others excluded because it introduced such significant heterogeneity as to make a meta analysis unreliable.
- MJL
September 14, 2008 4:54AM
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So, explain to us how the one positive outcome (citation needed) is reliable, and compare it to the others (citations needed). Vague references to "studies" shield people, such as you, from scrutiny.
I don't blame you for avoiding citations, others, who have given genuine references, have been embarrassed.
- JJM September 19, 2008 1:13PM
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One curious thing is that a common protocol for acupuncture with IVF (obviously a modern protocol) includes the very points that have traditionaly been contra-indicated in pregancy (Spleen 6 and Large Intestine 4). I have not been able to find the rationale for this treatment explained, and it seems very peculiar to me - but it is interesting that actual negative results have been reported; i.e. increased misscarriage, in the recent meta-study.
- AAPrescott October 8, 2008 1:51PM
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I cant imagine why you think giving citations is embarrassing.
FYI the references are
1 Effects of acupuncture on rates of pregnancy and live birth among women undergoing in vitro fertilisation: systematic review and meta-analysis.
Manheimer E et al. BMJ 2008;336 pg 545-549
British Medical Journal
describes a positive effect for acupuncture given to IVF patients
2 Acupuncture and Assisted Conception
Cheong Y et al, Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews Nov 2008, Issue 4.
Cochrane Review
describes a positive effect for acupuncture given to IVF patients
3 A Systematic Review and Meta -analysis of the effect of Acupuncture on Outcome of in Vitro Fertilisation Treatment
El-Toukhy T et al BJOG 2008 115 (10); 1203 -13
British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecolgy
doesnt describe a positive effect for acupuncture given to IVF patients ........ since this analysis included a paper which was rejected by the other authors because of significant methodological differences.
4 Meta analysis done by Prof Smith, UWS, Australia. Unpublished.
describes a positive effect for acupuncture given to IVF patients
- MJL November 4, 2008 12:15AM
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Sure, acupuncture is much safer than drugs. But if it is not effective, its risk-benefit profile can hardly be positive. What I'm trying to say is this: neither the absolute risk nor the absolute benefit count but their balance is crucial.
- Edzard Ernst September 15, 2008 3:05AM
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Just look to astrology for a parallel example: completely false, scientifically disproven, and nonsensical (even on the "common sense" level) - yet it has been around for ~5000 years and some people still believe their horoscopes.
There's no sense in venerating a prescientific belief merely because it's old, and even less sense in holding onto it despite careful science that shows it to be false.
Human recollection and perception are notoriously fallible and easily fooled or distorted. Anecdote in the absence of research can be taken with a grain of salt, but choosing anecdote over the results of carefully controlled study is plainly foolish.
- David Simmer September 4, 2008 1:31PM
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You make a good point with astrology - but modern science has not thrown out all of human endevour and learning. For most of human history most of our endevours have been based upon empirical trial and error and accumulated experience over generations. Humans have been farming for thousands of years and people have become very skilled at this. Scientific method may show up some false ideas, but if the main part of this body of knowledge was not reasonably sound we would presumably have starved to death by now. So why should traditional medicine not similarlly be given a reasonable benefit of the doubt?
- AAPrescott September 12, 2008 9:30AM
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As I said above, in the absence of research or prior scientific investigation, you can take a plausible yet untested old idea with a grain of salt - there might be something to it. However, it's folly to carefully test an idea, find experimental results wanting, note that it is based on pre-scientific ideas which have elsewhere been disproven, and yet still give more weight to anecdote than to the careful research.
No one has ever died for lack of acupuncture; with interventions that are safe but not effective, the historical record doesn't have anything so obvious to point to as "hey look, we're still alive, so it must work."
Remember, research is experience too - in fact, it's superior experience when done right, because we put effort into being accurate, reducing confusion, and accounting for as many complicating factors as possible. Yet many people continue to give more weight to their personal "experience" which is a tangled, unexamined mass of hearsay, confounded situtations, and data recalled from the notoriously faulty human memory. It's astounding.
- David Simmer September 12, 2008 12:08PM
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A few years ago a number of editors of medical journals wrote an open letter expressing concern about the way the reduction of public funding, and the greater emphasis on pharmaceutical company funding was skewing results of trials and studies. This was what I meant in an earlier posting by 'politics' being a factor. Double blind controlled trials are not a foolproof system because they are done by human beings, if people can skew their results (consciously or unconsciously) in order to please a drug company then they can presumably be skewed by beliefs and expectations. Studies have been done that prove one thing and others get opposite results - last year cardiologists were very upset to hear that 30,000 operations a month(?) done preventatively for asymptomatic patients were not effective at preventing heart attack. So I just do not consider these to be the last word on whether acupuncture works.
- AAPrescott September 12, 2008 1:47PM
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This argument would only convince anyone, if it were based on solid evidence. Sadly the best data we have today do not suggest that acupuncture is cost-effective.
- Edzard Ernst September 15, 2008 3:13AM
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Mr. Reddy writes Musculoskeletal pain, internal conditions, dermatological and neurological conditions all respond favorably to acupuncture."
Cite the high-quality evidence for any ailment.
- JJM September 5, 2008 2:25AM
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You start by saying that in 1983 NCCAM and the WHO endorse acupuncture for approximately 75% of the world’s ailments. But as Dr. Novella points out, there was no NCCAM at that time and you provide no support whatsoever for this most extraordinary claim.
I’m sure that in your mind being an aerospace engineer qualifies you competently review medical literature (after all you trumpet the credential). I guess that makes Dr. Novella qualified to flight test helicopters. Seems logical.
You summarize a fertility study but again forgot the references. Then you say a PubMed search returns 13000 references. Gee, if you could only reference half a dozen or so well controlled, properly constructed, and analyzed studies with positive findings we might be more impressed. Come on, help us do our homework.
You do a good job of “proving” acupuncture is less dangerous than conventional medicine. And I agree. I bet the shaking of rattles, incantation of magic words, the waving of hands, and just plain wishing are all less dangerous than acupuncture.
But then you make your first good point. Why would people do this for 5000 years if it didn’t offer any benefit? Why would people keep coming back to you if you didn’t make them feel better? Of course it does make people feel better. But this is due to the placebo effect bolstered by your reassurances. After all this is what the medical literature really says.
So what’s the harm in what you do? Other than taking people’s money for a fraudulent treatment; it keeps people from getting legitimate help. Remember, you are an aerospace engineer, not a trained physician. Sooner or later someone will come to you with a serious medical problem. You will fail to recognize it for what it is and waste their time with bogus treatment. They will die or suffer severe injury when they did not have to.
- SMK September 7, 2008 3:11PM
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This seems a very disrespectful tone. The argument that acupuncture may keep someone from getting legitimate results is really nonsense. I have lost count of how many people in 30 years that I have sent to a medical doctor sometimes more than once because of my concerns, e.g. the high blood pressures cases I have refered to a physician, even patients who were attending a physician for some other complaint. And what about the people who are not helped and even damaged because they are put on powerful medication when in many cases a simpler less dangerous treatment of even preventative health advice could have sufficed.
- AAPrescott September 11, 2008 4:01PM
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It has been a week and Mr Reddy has not provided any high-quality evidence. Perhaps he should study R. Barker Bausell's "Snake Oil Science" (Oxford, 2007).
Mr. Prescott seems upset that the facts are not on his side.
>AAP "This seems a very disrespectful tone. The argument that acupuncture may keep someone from getting legitimate results is really nonsense. I have lost count of how many people in 30 years that I have sent to a medical doctor sometimes more than once because of my concerns, {snip}"
-How many truly ill people have you failed to recognize? You don't know because you can only address rudimentary stuff, such as hypertension. It is not nonsense that AltMed types do not know diagnosis and delay needed treatment.
>AAP "And what about the people who are not helped and even damaged because they are put on powerful medication when in many cases a simpler less dangerous treatment of even preventative health advice could have sufficed."
-That is irrelevant to the question of whether acupuncture "works." Perhaps you can cite reliable evidence (reliable, as described in Bausell's book) that acupuncture works.
- JJM September 12, 2008 7:29AM
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Please do not distort my meaning.
I was upset because your comments verged on personal attack on the previous 'speaker'.
I do not see much to be achieved continuing a conversation where the 'goal posts' are moved, but lest you think I am defeated by your brilliant arguments.
I am a psyhiatric nure by training, so my background for recognizing 'red flags' that require referral to a regular physician are quite strong. What are your 'facts' for this common but unproven assertion based upon? Mine are based upon 30 years experience in health care, including being in charge of hospital units.
- AAPrescott September 12, 2008 8:51AM
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AA Prescott, if you are an adequately-educated nurse, perhaps you can identify some, true illnesses. However, if you believe in acupuncture, it reflects badly on your medical education.
The goalposts have not been moved. The claim is unchanged- acupuncture is a pre-scientific superstition.
Maybe you could be the first to cite high-quality research supporting acupuncture. It would be quite a coup- nobody else seems to be able to do so.
- JJM September 12, 2008 12:40PM
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It is simply not true to say that acupuncture is of proven efficacy for all of these conditions (see Ernst E. Acupuncture – a critical analysis. J Intern Med. 2006;259(2):125-37)
- Edzard Ernst September 15, 2008 3:18AM
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Is this about decisions of top medical schools or about reproducible, sound data?
- Edzard Ernst September 15, 2008 3:24AM
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Wouldn't we see other "natural" ancient remedies with equal popularity claiming to do the same thing?
- F2XL December 19, 2008 9:38PM
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Who said we don't? Besides modern placebos, you've also got faith healing, psychic healing (basically the same), and 'medicines' like in China and other parts of the world which retain popularity despite there being no scientific basis for their working. Unless it's proved that the 'medicine' works without the recipient knowing what is being done, I'm not eager to believe in these sorts of things.
People are apt to believe anything if they want to.
- Blue Linchpin December 20, 2008 9:26PM
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"Besides modern placebos, you've also got faith healing, psychic healing (basically the same), and 'medicines' like in China"
I don't think those are quite as popular or respected as acupuncture, but I agree that the extent at which the placebo effect kicks in is definitely something to be called into account:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081201082353.htm
http://www.webmd.com/back-pain/news/20070924/study-acupuncture-eases-low-back-pain
- F2XL December 20, 2008 11:34PM
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Chinese medicine, herbalism, chiropractic, homeopathy, osteopathy, naturopathy, yoga, meditation, Ayurveda...
All these disciplines have accredited universities and wide acceptance despite very sketchy clinical evidence.
- Antimatter December 23, 2008 12:46AM
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And yet willow bark tea was also a "Pre-Scientific Superstition." Science-based medicine is still an embarrassingly pragmatic operation, and we do not truly understand why many of our accepted treatments work, especially in the area of pain perception. I'd love to hear a scientific explanation of why anesthesia works. We use it because it does work, and it is scientifically proven to work, but we don't always know why. It is accurate to say that acupuncture has not held up in scientific trials, but don't argue against it on the basis that its proponents don't know how it works.
Every time a physician gets on the high horse about how great our knowledge is, and then gets proven even slightly wrong, it undercuts the public trust in both medicine and science. You suffer from a lack of humility while standing at the edge of a sea of undiscovered knowledge.
- Adam Hammond September 4, 2008 4:34PM
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Mr. Hammond, your argument is off topic. Other things that are proven to work have no bearing on acupuncture.
The acupuncturist's task, here, is quite simple- cite high-quality research published in high-quality medical journals that support the use of acupuncture for any ailment. That does not prove "acupuncture works," except in the case of that particular ailment; but it is a start. (Take note that a single publication, even if it stands up to scrutiny, is rarely convincing.)
What physicians feel or think is also irrelevant. What is known is all that counts, and there is no experimental support for the use of acupuncture.
- JJM September 5, 2008 2:03AM
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You can call me Adam, or Dr. Hammond, and I did not attempt any proof of acupuncture. My point is that your lack of humility is damaging to our side, the side of rational thought.
- Adam Hammond September 5, 2008 6:47AM
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I do mean Dr. Novella's arrogance, not yours. I did not find the JJM post arrogant, nor damaging to the side of rational thought.
- Adam Hammond September 5, 2008 7:10AM
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Won't you acknowledge that there is a strong prejudice on the part of western medicine against TCM? I remember how even as late as ten years ago, "traditional" herbal medicines were a laughing stock by many physicians, but today have gained some semblance of acceptance. It seems to me that it took a long time before the medical establishment allowed for "high-quality research published in high-quality medical journals" to be produced on the topic of some 'traditional' herbal remedies, therefore why is it a surprise that few have yet to emerge on acupuncture?
I too wish to see such studies on acupuncture. However, I also recognize that the western medical establishment is slow to change, inflexible when it comes to differing paradigms, and holds deep prejudices against notions that fall outside of its predefined realm.
We can talk about the scientific method all day, but we all know that there are a myriad of competing interests in the medical establishment the prevent it from being an altruistic pursuit of science; interests that often exclude traditional herbal treatments, nutrition as the best form of prevention, and TCM, in part because they all don't utilize the latest and greatest medical surgeries or wonder drugs. Is it any surprise why it's difficult for a drastically different medical perspective to even be given the chance to prove itself under the standards predefined by the western medical establishment?
- etbarker December 18, 2008 12:02PM
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Our knowledge evolves and that's fine - knowledge in science that is. In TCM, knowledge does not evolve but adheres to outdated philosophies of chi etc.
- Edzard Ernst September 15, 2008 3:28AM
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Ah, but there is reason to expect results from acupuncture!
The acupuncture points are in most instance the very same spots that are Triggerpoints in Mtofascial pain disease or tender points in Fibromyalgia.
I have had the experience of getting relief from the ravaging pain of the knotted up muscle fibers affected with the flaring of a "trigger point".
With these trigger points it is often possible to self treat by applying pressure to the flared up spot.
unfortunately they are likely to redevelop in a few hours, making self treatment ability desirable.
My first experience with acupuncture was treatment of a flared up left scapula with a few trpt. One of the practitioners needles was definitely in one of the affected spots, which felt a bit sore, but not with the usual excruciating pain that often develops in these eschemic areas. The whole affected area improved that day snd I had a month remission from the Myofascial pain.
When I had an appointment for treating myofascial pains in another area at another time I did not experience much relief. The Acupuncturist had embarked upon pursuing possible causes of these ischemic occurrences rather than pain relief.
With this chromic disease I have also used the services of some physical therapists trained in trigger point release. Some degree of pain relief resulted but the trigger points would re-form in 3 or 4 hours.
I have switched to therapists trained in J Barnes Myofascial relief. There approach often leaves the trigger points untouched but instead explorrd the myofascial system of the body seeking causes for the trigger point flareup,
I have had some remissions up to 4 months following a treatment or two or three.
It has been necessary to self treat trigger points as they happen to develop.
It would not surprise me that if I were to absorb the expense of having a series of acupuncture procedures done to purse "cause" - this might be successful.
Also I believe the acupuncturist was able to improve an ankle condition for me.
Hal 84
- Hal 84 December 14, 2008 4:43PM
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Very well said. It's certainly not enough for acupuncture advocates to say, "Acupuncture works because I feel better now." There has to be a clearly articulated and substantiated way in which acupuncture causes them to feel better. There also have to be clear definitions rather than ever-moving goalposts for what constitutes proof of effectiveness.
What does Bill Reddy think about the role of chi in acupuncture? Is his definition the same as yours?
- thoughtcounts Z September 4, 2008 12:01PM
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My husband is a Certified Classical Five-Element Acupuncturist, Martin Murphy, C.A., L.Ac. Dipl. OM. He uses absolutely no electrical stimulation during acupuncture.
He has treated patients who have been referred to him by Chiropractors, regular MD's, oncologists, psychologists, physical therapists, & cardiologists. All of his patients have documented verifiable results, confirmed by observation and/or tested by standard radiology and blood work showing the improvements that were achieved in very hard cases only AFTER receiving acupuncuture. Our most moving case, being a patient with metastisized cancer whose belly was so swollen he looked 9 months pregnant and had been told by his specialists that the best they could do was to slow down the progress, if that. He began acupuncture to treat the pain, discomfort, and exhaustion caused by chemo and radiation. My husband was more determined to heal him then that and would not settle for mere pain relief. After six months of care, not only has did his stomach flatten, and his health and vitality return so that you wouldn't even know he was sick, but his MRI's showed consistently that his cancer was shrinking and his blood work steadily improved. Then he moved out of state, and stopped coming in for acupuncture for two months. He was still receiving all the same Western care, the only change was missing the acupuncture. He deteriorated quickly, and his stomach swelled back up again, and had several gallons of fluid drained out three times over those two months, until finally is desperation he chose to fly here to see my husband again. With acupuncture he has again improved, is no longer swelling or needing to be drained, and his vitality is returning again.
Our most profound case to me, is that of a 4 yr old girl who had been taken to every specialist imaginable for profound and severe allergies to almost everything, that resulted in a very limited diet, extreme care necessary in her daily life and environment to protect from allergens. She was brought in due to extraordinarily terrible eczema all over her body, that none of the Western specialists had been able to help at all through any of the means they tried. This resulted in an inablility for both the child and the mother to sleep, the child was miserable, lethargic, with no energy or desire to even play. She was too young to even understand what was being done during her treatment, must less "believe in her mind" that it would help her, when none of the other numerous things others had done had helped her at all. After 3 treatments she was sleeping through the night and the eczema rash was healing and disappearing. After 5 treatments there were only a few small patches on her hands and lower legs, and she was running around our office and chattering. After 7 treatments she was completely healed, and her grandparents didn't recognize her as the same child and her parents were proudly reporting that her school teachers were noticing extraordinary improvement.
You can't "bait & switch" an unknowing severely miserable 4 year old. And you can't fool an MRI, or ignore the difference between a belly swelling with gallons of fluid, or not swelling.
This is just two of many at our Center.
- Aurora September 12, 2008 8:21AM
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Anecdotes led to bleeding, purgatives, and other useless treatments (such as acupuncture). Hasn't anyone explained this to you? Your stories mean nothing. Where are the controlled experiments that support acupuncture? (They do not exist; but you can look, if you have time to waste.)
I don't mind people who are simply uninformed on a topic. What I mind is people who are uninformed, yet pontificate on a topic as if they were informed: Justin Kruger and David Dunning "Unskilled and Unaware of It" Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 1999, Vol. 77, No. 6. ] 1121-1134. This is free, online, but the URL is not handy.
- JJM September 19, 2008 1:44PM
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I hope that Dr. Novella only tries to instigate a discussion about the topic, and not really believes what he is saying. There many instances in which the same argument (all of his arguments) can be made about the "scientific" approach of Western medicine - and its non-functioning.
However, if he needs more information, I would recommend that he contacts the NIH (National Institute of Health) and get their opinion on the subject.
Furthermore, there are many studies conducted by large Medical Centers in the US and Europe (Mount Sinai, Boston Memorial, for example) on the efficacy of acupuncture and the results are outstanding.
- TedWolf September 11, 2008 12:52PM
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TedWolf says "Furthermore, there are many studies conducted by large Medical Centers in the US and Europe (Mount Sinai, Boston Memorial, for example) on the efficacy of acupuncture and the results are outstanding."
GREAT! So you can be the first to cite the high quality evidence for acupuncture. Everyone else provides anecdote and testimonial (and irrelevant articles in inferior magazines). We expect to hear more from you, soon.
- JJM September 18, 2008 1:53PM
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One of the problems not discussed here concerns how feasible it is to conduct the studies upon acupuncture. The very nature of confining an acupuncture treatment to a certain protocol which can then be assessed in a trial "de-natures" the acupuncture treatment. To rely on a protocol has been historically considered a very inferior form of acupuncture. The sham acupuncture used in many trials is also problematic. For example, techniques of Japanese Acupuncture rely on very superficial insertion, akin to the sham techniques.
It is my view that the gold standard of the RCT is not suitable to properly assess the eficacy of acupuncture. An acupuncture point is not the same as a drug.
- Black flag December 19, 2008 5:03AM
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By just looking at how many drugs have been recalled one can see that science doesn't have the whole picture all the time. You know, people figured out what activity made babies happen long before they knew the entire story about mechanisms (and even now the whole story is not known). The fact that patients get better much of the time for having received competent acupuncture treatment is significant if one's intention is to relieve suffering in patients. If compelling scientific proof is one's motivation, then I can understand that not being able to explain results would be very unsettling. However, let's not forget that as physicians, our goal should be the relief of suffering--not neatly packaged results. And if our patients are reporting to us in droves that acupuncture has helped them where allopathic medicine could not, perhaps we, as physicians, should be thankful that someone is helping our patients. They certainly are.
smc
- acuwoman1962 February 24, 2009 2:53PM
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"By just looking at how many drugs have been recalled one can see that science doesn't have the whole picture all the time."
That is Science in action. Drugs are tested rigorously, but testing is by its very nature limited, and released once the testing passed. Once introduced into the general population more studies are done to see if it is effective or harmful, when found to be harmful a drug is removed from the population. That drugs are removed is a sign that the process is working.
"The fact that patients get better much of the time for having received competent acupuncture treatment is significant if one's intention is to relieve suffering in patients."
Yet studies have shown that random sticking with needles works just as well as acupuncture... indeed every rigorous study done on acupuncture has shown that it's effects are no better then a placebo.
"If compelling scientific proof is one's motivation, then I can understand that not being able to explain results would be very unsettling."
It's not unsettling, it is exciting... that means that something new is being observed. A researcher who would be able to demonstrate a mechanism behind acupuncture would be rather famous indeed.
- MrBook July 18, 2009 7:17AM
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"Yet studies have shown that random sticking with needles works just as well as acupuncture ...indeed every rigorous study done on acupuncture has shown that it's effects are no better than a placebo."
The NIH has finally agreed that placebo acupuncture treatments or "random sticking" as you call it, are not truly placebo. One is still stimulating the body. Research is going more toward practice based studies for this and other reasons--mainly because it has been determined that acupuncture does have an effect. Now it's time to study which practitioners are getting what results with what kinds of cases.
"That drugs are removed is a sign that the process is working."
Really? Experimenting on people with unproven drugs, finding out that they kill or hurt a significant number of patients, then removing them from the market means the process works? How many people have been killed or hurt by acupuncture compared to how many helped and how many no effect? Lets look at those numbers. Medication and surgery should be the last resort. Both irrevocably injure the body. All medications are toxic and must be detoxified by the liver and/or kidneys which causes strain on our systems. While acupuncture is not risk-free, the number of deaths and injuries are miniscule in comparison. And the success rate according to users is significant. Isn't it just common sense??
"A researcher who would be able to demonstrate a mechanism behind acupuncture would be rather famous indeed."
The suggested mechanisms for acupuncture are as varied as it's effects. Because the approach is so different from the western model where we target and isolate, one cannot ask the same questions nor perform the same experiments. For example, when studying Desert Ecology one has little need of a microscope. But does that mean it is not science ? Acupuncture is about stimulating areas of the body which are related embryologically (the arms to the heart/lungs) to get a distant effect (or local effect as the case may be). There is a holographic system at work as well (just like the DNA for our whole body is located in the nucleus of each cell). Please refer to Matsumoto and Birch's Hara Diagnosis: Reflections on the Sea, especially chapters 8 and 9 for an overview of possible mechanisms beyond the simple gate theory of pain. And why it is untenable to prove these mechanisms at this time.
It took mankind over 1 million years to answer some of the questions concerning conception. But as I stated before, that didn't stop us from using the same time tested techniques to procreate.
The human body's (or any life form's) ability to adapt and heal itself is in large part what has permitted it to persist. Acupuncture (or any of the many methods of stimulating acupoints) is just one way to help steer living things toward health using the body's ability to adapt to stimuli. It can be done correctly (points chosen wisely for each patient) and the patient made better. Or points can be chosen unwisely and the patient's health can be worsened more quickly than would have otherwise happened. I urge you to read more about it from the acupuncture community itself--not just "studies". The studies are like monkeys coming upon a spaceship and beating on it with sticks and rocks to try to see if it fights back or they can eat it. It's far too advanced systems theory to use reductionist thinking on.
A reading list for those who are interested:
In this order:
The Body Electric---R.O. Becker MD--Interesting stuff on tissue healing and polarity at injury (needle stick) sites and references to possible mechanisms for acupuncture
The Holographic Universe---Stanislov Groff--pimer on holographic theory which is big in neurobiology these days
Hara Diagnosis: Reflections on the Sea; chapters 8 and 9--Matsumoto/Birch
The Web That Has No Weaver---Ted Kaptchuk
Our health/disease is the gestault of many interacting systems and circumstances, internal and external. Reducing acupuncture to one mechanism is ludicrous. When the body is stimulated, it adapts and responds in myriad ways. The points are like areas on a huge holigraphic multidimensional map which feedback simultaneously to many systems at once and work in concert with other points as well to try to help the body return to the default state of health. Traditionally, it takes a lifetime to study and understand. It must be formally studied as a whole in order to be applied or understood.
Western science is not advanced enough to study acupuncture. Traditional Chinese Medical Theory, on the other hand, has a lot to offer to western medicine as to how the human body works, why it gets sick or well and how to prevent or treat illness before the damage becomes irreversible. Will we listen?
smc
- acuwoman1962 July 19, 2009 1:08AM
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"The NIH has finally agreed that placebo acupuncture treatments or "random sticking" as you call it, are not truly placebo. One is still stimulating the body. Research is going more toward practice based studies for this and other reasons--mainly because it has been determined that acupuncture does have an effect. Now it's time to study which practitioners are getting what results with what kinds of cases."
Again, random pricking produced the same results as those found in an actual acupuncture session.
"Really? Experimenting on people with unproven drugs, finding out that they kill or hurt a significant number of patients, then removing them from the market means the process works?"
Yes, because no drug trial can cover everyone who will be taking the drug there will always be some elements unaccounted for. It is tragic but true... with the alternative being those who benefit from the drug not having it (and possibly dying)
"How many people have been killed or hurt by acupuncture compared to how many helped and how many no effect?"
Since acupuncture is doing nothing more then stimulating minor endorphin releases then there isn't much chance of it directly harming. However when an individual forgoes actual treatment for the sake of unproven woo then they are harming themselves.
"Both irrevocably injure the body. All medications are toxic and must be detoxified by the liver and/or kidneys which causes strain on our systems."
[Citation Needed] on that one. While it is possible for medications do damage the body when used in high doses or for long periods of time that damage is part of the testing process. Can you show that a significant portion of medications do long term damage to the body when used?
"Isn't it just common sense??"
Common sense is not always the most useful guide. Indeed when conducting medical research it is important to observe and verify.
"The suggested mechanisms for acupuncture are as varied as it's effects. Because the approach is so different from the western model where we target and isolate, one cannot ask the same questions nor perform the same experiments."
But the points and the channels are real. By stimulating those points we can observe the location where the change is supposed to be taking place to see the effectiveness of acupuncture. The link has a physical presence, and thus can be observed if it exists.
"For example, when studying Desert Ecology one has little need of a microscope."
And? Just because not every scientific tool is useful in every scientific branch (and microscopes are useful in Desert Ecology) does not mean that there are no tools that can be used to study acupuncture.
- MrBook July 22, 2009 6:28AM
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"It can be done correctly (points chosen wisely for each patient) and the patient made better. Or points can be chosen unwisely and the patient's health can be worsened more quickly than would have otherwise happened."
Then that can be observed and tested... Though again, random pricking has been shown to statistically have the same effect as acupuncture .
"I urge you to read more about it from the acupuncture community itself--not just "studies". "
Why doesn't the acupuncture community put out its own studies detailing their methodology. If they did then it would be possible for others to independently verify their work.
"The Body Electric"
If it is electrical based then we can surely test and observe it... also are there any peer reviewed papers on that? The only book I could find was a popular science one, and the only website talked about 'erotic energy ' and described what sounded like a big orgy.
"The Holographic Universe"
This one is a bit better, but it still falls way short... on the page "the Universe as a Hologram" five sentences in is a huge error (separated quantum particles have not been shown to communicate with each other).
"Hara Diagnosis: Reflections on the Sea"
All I find are websites selling the book... no descriptions of how it works or links to published studies.
"The points are like areas on a huge holigraphic multidimensional map which feedback simultaneously to many systems at once and work in concert with other points as well to try to help the body return to the default state of health. Traditionally, it takes a lifetime to study and understand. It must be formally studied as a whole in order to be applied or understood."
Yet you have provided no evidence to demonstrate that that 'huge holographic multidimensional map' even exists.
"Western science is not advanced enough to study acupuncture. "
That's a bit of a dodge there... if acupuncture is impacting the body then that impact can be observed / quantified. Thus Western Science can study acupuncture.
"Traditional Chinese Medical Theory, on the other hand, has a lot to offer to western medicine as to how the human body works, why it gets sick or well and how to prevent or treat illness before the damage becomes irreversible. Will we listen?"
To a practice that recommended the powdered genitals of an endangered species as a treatment for impotence?
- MrBook July 22, 2009 6:29AM
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I am just a chemist; but I could see major flaws in the AIM publication. I was going to point them out; but, when I went to do so- I saw Dr. Novella beat me to it.
Mr. Reddy, you really need to learn what constitutes high-quality evidence. Then, please cite something that supports acupuncture. Keep in mind, one success will not ratify the whole enterprise.
- JJM September 12, 2008 10:38AM
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In the UK, NICE (National Institute for Clinical Excellence) recently evaluated the totality of the trial data on acupuncture for knee osteoarthritis. Their bottom line was negative and they recommended against using it. NICE has no axe to grind. They advise the UK government which would be delighted to save money on treatment if acupuncture was truely evidence-based.
- Edzard Ernst September 15, 2008 3:38AM
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The controlled placebo effect accounts for more than 3/4 of the total effect of acupuncture in this study. (And I am being generous and EXCLUDING weeks 4 and 8 when the differences between the control and experimental groups were not significant.) While the results are statistically significant, it is unarguable that the patients came in contact with people who knew which treatment the patients were receiving. Any information which may break the blind of the study would produce an 'enhanced' placebo effect by convincing patients they are receiving the 'real' treatment.
A study which could more rigorously preserves the experimental blind would be much more persuasive.
- Matthew Ackerman September 19, 2008 11:26AM
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Great argument, this is such an exciting topic!
Dr. Novella, it would be great to get a list of the studies are referring to. Do you mean that every single one is either poorly designed or fails to show efficacy? Do you recommend that these studies stop, or just that certain acupuncture techniques should not be used unless they have shown efficacy?
Mr. Reddy, do you have a list of more than just one study that you think is not only well designed, but also shows efficacy in a certain condition?
From a layman's perspective, I believe Mr. Reddy is right about Dr. Novella's logic. To refute the statement "Clinical Trials show that Acupuncture Doesn't Work", only one study showing efficacy is required.
If you Dr. Novella means something else, then I suggest he restates.
Otherwise, the statement, "Clinical Trials Show that Pharmaceuticals Don't Work," is supported by compiling all the literature, where one finds the overwhelming majority of clinical trials examing pharmaceutical therapies fail to show significant efficacy.
I believe both of you, but I am not clear of the argument. I think this topic is well deserved and look forward to discussing it more!
- Captain Awesome June 12, 2009 5:01PM
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Mr. Reddy, can you tell me exactly how the resistance measurements were made? The paper does not say, most particularly, where the reference electrode was and how it was applied? Presumably you read and understood this.
Look at Figures 1 & 2. Where are the error bars? How many experiments were performed? Was the experimenter blinded to the readout? Speaking (myself) as someone who measured skin-resistance several decades ago, such measurements are easily manipulated by the experimenter. The reported pressure (in grams) variation of conductivity is way too small, suggesting the data is incompetently obtained, or faked.
Did I read correctly that vegetables have acupuncture points, as do severed limbs??
They also cover Kirlian auras, and electroacupuncture according to Voll; which have been thoroughly debunked.
In other words, a proper referee for this article would demand a lot more information, or reject it.
It might help if you could supply a proper citation to the technetium experiment, even if it is not available OnLine. Why is it that you cannot cite high-quality support for your claims?
- JJM September 12, 2008 10:07AM
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You need to inform yourself better: a recent review of the literature (by acupuncture proponents) concluded that the evidence for the existence of meridians etc was insufficient!
- Edzard Ernst September 15, 2008 3:44AM
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My postdoctoral advisor when I was at Cornell is an experienced experimental scientist and a deeply skeptical thinker, including regarding non-standard medicine. He suffered from fairly severe back pain and was talked in to trying acupuncture. He had to convince the acupuncturist to stop spouting the ridiculous explanations of why it worked, but the truth, for him, is that it does reduce his pain. He now goes about once a month, and his standard of living is improved. Placebo effects are considerably stronger for people who have positive expectations. I have a hard time believing that he is fooling himself, but regardless, I am glad that his suffering is eased.
Disproof is impossible, right?
If you reduce the effective n of these studies, the statistical significance drops (of course). There could be a segment of the population for whom acupuncture works (as with some other treatments). It is also highly unlikely that acupuncture can do all of the things that have been ascribed to it. Hypothetically, if acupuncture worked only for pain, and only for one third of the locations ascribed to it, the studies to date could be missing a large positive signal. Alternately, the target could be remarkably small (a specific nerve?) such that even 'good' practitioners hit it only 10% of the time and 'bad' ones only 1%.
I am glad that the studies continue, and I am not willing to close the books yet. It seems to me that the risks are low enough that people should be encouraged to try it if they have the inclination. Furthermore, medical clinicians should avoid carelessly denigrating the practice, so that their patients are willing to be forthcoming.
- Adam Hammond September 4, 2008 4:08PM
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My husband is a Certified Classical Five-Element Acupuncturist, and Dipl. OM with a Master's Degree in Traditional Oriental Medicine. I run the office. Not only do I personally receive acupuncture regularly, but I also see every single day the efficacy of the treatment in his patients. And he has been teaching me a bit about the techniques.
If acupuncture were merely a placebo effect, then you could just stick needles anywhere in the body if a person was "convinced" it would work, and they would all have the same effect... and that just doesn't happen. I can feel the difference in my own body in where the needles are placed, and can tell by the sensation if he got the point right or was off by a millimeter. I can also tell, as can he, what it feels like on the needle when it goes into the right spot. An acurate acupuncture point being needled has a very specific feel to it, there is a "tug" and a density to the point. If it is missed, it feels like the needle is sliding into soft butter, no resistence or tug at all.
And if you don't needles the right points in the right order, in the right direction, then there is no noticable change. My husband can tell immediately if the treatment has worked by changes in the patient's pulses, their color, odor, sound of their voice, and emotional state. After spending a year working with him, even I can tell the differences now. And if something didn't work, he is the first to notice, and adjust and do the treatment over and differently to achieve the needed change.
MRI's, radiology, and blood work have reliably proven in our Center that the treatments given here have a real effect and create true healing, allowing many of our patients to stop taking pharmaceuticals for pain, hypertension, migraines, hyperthyroidism, diabetes, and others with their primary care's approval.
Personally he has stopped an extreme migraine with just five points the migraine and all of it's symptoms went away in less than 10 minutes, and I was able to eat pizza 20 minutes later. I have had migraines last two days and Imitrex, Vicodin, Excedrine, and Ibuprofen didn't touch them! If the acupuncture had a placebo effect, why didn't any of the pharamaceuticals work for me. And as he was needling me I was protesting and insisting it would not work. He was right, and I was wrong. Further I broke two of my toes the day before Thanksgiving last year, using only acupuncture, I had no pain, the swelling and bruising healed rapidly, and I was able to happily walk around Manhatten two days later. I had my tonsils out and major sinus repair surgery at the end of June of this year. My ENT said I had the worst tonsils she had ever seen,chronically inflammed since early childhood, and my septum was severly deviated and my sinuses were awful. I was able to talk the very next day. Used only 1/3 of the pain medicine she gave me, went back to work after only 4 days, and by my two week post-op, she couldn't even tell I'd had my tonsils out, I had healed so perfectly. She has since referred several of her own patients to my husband for pre- and post-op acupuncture and treatment of sinusitis and allergies.
Further, the "placebo" effect has been more thoroughly established with regards to Western Medicine Pharmacology, so perhaps we should just toss all those expensive Profit-making pills that do more harm than good and swallow Flintstones vitamins instead.
- Aurora September 12, 2008 7:47AM
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I would like to add here - the various threads are a little complicated to follow so this may not be the ideal place.
Double blind placebo controlled trials are clearly trying to rule out the placebo affect. It has been commented on by others that the placebo affect is a remarkable thing in itself. And I hesitate to say this for fear of miss-understanding, but one possible mechanism to understand acupunture in modern terms is that it directly affects whatever mechanism is responsible for the placebo affect and so is not dependent upon a patients belief, but there may be similar mechanisms. The closest we have come yet to a verification of channel and point theory is electical properties and so it seems likely that the electrical mechanisms that Becker researched could be the underlying link here. I have just been given 'Energy Medicine The Scientific Basis' by James L. Oschman - I have not begun to read it yet, but it seems to be along the same lines and a continuation of Becker's research.
- AAPrescott September 12, 2008 9:09AM
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Why not simply cite the rigorous research that supports your ideas (popular books don't count).
- JJM September 18, 2008 1:26PM
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Arguments, and anecdotes/testimonials are worthless. We rely on verifiable studies. Why can you not cite any? It is simple, that is all we ask. Then we can consider the quality of your evidence.
- JJM September 18, 2008 1:23PM
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In "Snake Oil Science" R. Barker Bausell examined literature supposedly favoring acupuncture and found that articles which emanate from Asia, or in AltMed magazines is not reliable. What you need to produce are citations of good-quality work published in medical journals.
- JJM September 12, 2008 7:39AM
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So go ahead: treat your rabbit. I want to know whether it works better than a placebo in human patients.
- Edzard Ernst September 15, 2008 3:48AM
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Professor Ernst wrote "So go ahead: treat your rabbit," did you miss the evidence from the fruit (or was it a vegetable)? They have avoided many opportunities to cite human data (aside from anecdote). One must conclude that there is none (I doubt you are surprised).
- JJM September 18, 2008 1:38PM
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Does Acupuncture Work?
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Exactly as stated ...
Yes, exactly as stated in the question, acupuncture "works" - sometimes, in some situations, and with little to no understanding as to why. The effects of acupuncture treatment may or may not be in the patient's - and the "doctor's" head - nevertheless, if the patient finds relief for whatever reason, perhaps, in the least, acupuncture does no harm. As a healer, one must needs carry both the bag of science and the bag of tricks. We human beings are incredibly complex creatures. Certainly, there is much we know and understand about ourselves AND much we do not. In the interest of aiding those who suffer, whatever treatments are available, whether soundly supported by science or not, mustn't be summarily rejected if there is a chance the patience will experience relief of their suffering by their use. "Health" isn't simply what lies in the mind of the physician, it is also and more importantly what lies in the mind of the patient. As inconclusive as research appears to be on the subject of acupuncture, I believe the healer must keep that option for treatment open to them in the remote possibility it has supportable benefit, even if that benefit is psychological alone.
I have never tried acupuncture myself, however, as one who suffers with acute and chronic pain, there are many times when I would accept even the scientifically unsupportable if there was even a slim chance it might reduce the pain or give it pause for even a few moments. As I've seen it, far too many physicians claiming to be "healers" are apathetic in relation to the psychological suffering component of illness. It often seems, in their view, a human being is simply a bag of meat which is, in their professional opinion, either functionally healthy or not.
I await either science's total rejection, or total acceptance of acupuncture. In the meantime, as a tentatively effective treatment, I may or may not find it useful.
- Naumadd
September 8, 2008 2:17PM
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Generating psychological benefit
To generate psychological benefit, one does not need a bogus treatment - that can be achieved with an effective (i.e. better than placebo) therapy as well. And then we would have the patient benifit from both specific and non-specific effects.
- Edzard Ernst
September 15, 2008 2:43AM
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5,000 years and you need to ask??
Acupuncture has been around longer than any other documented healing practice. That there is still debate going on is illuminating to say the least.
There is plenty of room for acupuncture and alopathic medicine to exist and even compliment each other. It's too bad the medical community has to engage in a pissing contest with something that, if it doesn't work anyway, they shouldn't feel so threatened by. But they clearly do exactly because it does work but they can't explain it.
I have practiced acupuncture for several years and successfully treated kidney stones (they passed on their own), irregular menstruation and uterine cysts, low back pain, depression and insomnia due to stress. I realize there's a pill for all of these "problems" but some people don't tolerate meds well. As acupuncture has little or no negative side-effects it's a great alternative.
- catano1165 September 11, 2008 7:27PM
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Acupuncture Works !!!
Hi, I am a licensed acupuncturist in private practice for over 15 years. About 70% of my patients get better (for pain) within 2-3 of insertion of needles. I am not saying Acupuncture works 100%, nothing does. But it is a really good tool to heal once mind, body and spirit with NO harmful side effects like drugs. www.NewYorkAcupunctureCenter.com
Numerous scientific studies support the fact that Acupuncture works and has solid proof behind it.
Mark Moshchinsky, L.Ac New York City.
- markymark September 11, 2008 9:06PM
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Show me
"Numerous scientific studies support the fact that Acupuncture works and has solid proof behind it.
Mark Moshchinsky, L.Ac New York City."
Fine. Provide real citations (not "a French study ..." or "a study on arthritis ..." but real, traceable research) that support your assertions of "solid proof." You could be the first acupuncturist to cite "research" that is not bogus.
- JJM
September 12, 2008 8:16PM
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Never need to be shown
I too was a skeptic of acupuncture. The are no really good studies showing its efficacy or mechanisms but aspirin was used an effective for many years without anyone knowing the mechanism. Ancedotes are not scientific proof but if it works for someone then it works. My young daughter was in pain and we tried everything 'medicine' had to offer. Acupunture worked to relieve her pain. Was it a placebo???...I don't really care. If it works, it works. It would have been nice if one of the traditional medical treatments could have been a "placebo" but none of them worked.
I hope you are never in enough pain that you have to be "shown" how it works.
- againes
October 27, 2008 2:21PM
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Skepticism is good, but let it not bias the mind
1. Is there really such an organization as the New England Skeptical Society? As an empiricist, I doubt that it could be real.
2. For a real live comment on whether it works, copy this link and watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn64xUaRKeE
3. The effects of gravity have been observed by humans forever, but it was not named and mathematically described until later. I guess that Steven Novella MD would thus also say that gravity and
its effects never existed until they were named and "explained." If someone explains something philosophically, and that philosophy is counter to your own views, then if that first philosophy is found to be "incorrect," then anything that was explained by that philosophy doesn't exist, or is invalid.
But wait a moment. Oh,that's right, gravity has not been explained, really, it has just been described. It is described as a force. As an acceleration. That's not really an explanation as to how it works. So if it can't be explained, the New England Skeptical Society (non-existent as it may be) would say that it doesn't exist, that it's effects aren't real. Charming perspective.
Likewise, science mostly describes phenomenon observed to occur and then tries to make predictions. Explanations as to how things work, scientifically speaking, boil down to probabilities that things, in a particular moment, are there or are not there. Electron "shells" are
just probabilities. Physics tells us that nothing is solid and that most of what we perceive to be "solid" is mostly void and without substance.
To get back to the issue of prediction and science. How do we forcast or predict effects of particular medical models. We look at what has happened in the past to predict the future. So, is a death due to medical treatment an issue of any import to societies? If so, let's look at iatrogenic deaths and make some predictions. Given that such a huge number of the iatrogenic deaths in the country are due to medications, we are forced to thus predict, based on the CDCs own statistics, that taking of drugs will kill people. Now, death due to drugs may not have any consequence or debatable value at the NE Skeptical Society. However, if drugs are the biggest category of iatrogenic causes of death, why do we use them when non-lethal forms of treatment exist, whether explained properly or not?
I cannot buy the faulty premise, made by Dr. Novella, that something is invalid merely because the method to explain how it works may be incorrect. An effect still is an effect even if you can't explain by a particular model. I think he would be hard-pressed to tell me how Vicodin works from the perspective of string theory or quantum mechanics. And yet, science tells us that all things are based on such concepts or theories, or perhaps we can go as far as saying these two "realities." So please explain how drugs work from a string theory perspective and I will be less harsh and skeptical about your method of attacking acupuncture.
- Jay Sordean September 12, 2008 12:42AM
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YouTube????
Mr. Sordean, the only support for your position is found at YouTube??
- JJM
September 12, 2008 8:34PM
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look how people are voting!
I find it interesting that over 80% of people have voted that acupuncture works and these western MD's still say its quackery. I have worked in both Eastern and Western Medicine as well as Acupuncture research and can say for sure that I know acupuncture works. What we need is more research. And also another important thing to take into account is some patients respond instantaneously to Oriental medicine therapies while other require a little longer; it's not like just taking one "magic" pill!
- purekarm76
September 12, 2008 2:19PM
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Irrelevant argumentum ad populi
Purekarm offers a bogus argument. Slavery was popular; but it was wrong. Bleeding and and violently toxic purgatives were popular; but they were more harmful than helpful. Popularity is no gauge of efficacy.
Yet, again, I offer an acupuncturist the opportunity to offer high-quality evidence in favor of acupuncture. I posit such evidence does not exist- surprise me.
- JJM
September 12, 2008 9:01PM
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hostility will get you nowhere...
I am a licensed Acupuncturist who has worked at Columbia University on 2 NIH funded studies in the last 5 years. I have seen results and as soon as the studies are published, so will you. I have the field practicing for only 8 years but have seen stoke patients (< 6 months) come in in wheelchairs and be able to walk on their own after a few treatments, I've seen fibroid's (< 8cm) shrink after Chinese herbal medicines were given for 3 months. I have seen enough in 8 years to understand that it is not all purely placebo.
- purekarm76
September 13, 2008 1:53PM
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No hostility
Just cite the high-quality literature with your reports. Nobody else seems able to do so. I expect great things from you.
- JJM
September 18, 2008 3:10PM
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here's some research, do your homework
I found the following paper at the UC Davis health library, you may have to pay for it as I wasn't able to find it online for free, but I'll give you the title and a bit of their findings:
Stern, Brown, Ulett, and Sletten, 'A comparison of hypnosis, acupuncture, morphine, Valium, aspirin, and placebo in the management of experimentally induced pain,' Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 1977, 296, 175-193
(p 188) "Acupuncture stimulation of true sites significatly (P < .01) reduced the pain induced by cold-pressor stimulation when compared to control trials with no acupuncture."
(p 190) " No significant pain relief derived from stimulation of acupuncture false sites when compared to control trials for either cold pressor or ischemic pain."
Another:
Here's the abstract from an article scanned in at this site, the article is originally from a periodical called Psychosomatic Medicine Vol. 41, No. 6 (October 1979), you can skip to the last two sentences if you want the main point:
http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/reprint/41/6/477.pdf
"Experimentally induced cold pressor pain was used to: 1) compare acupuncture and placebo
acupuncture; and 2) assess the effect of subject expectancy on treatment outcome. Seventy-two
subjects were randomly assigned to three groups of 24 subjects. The first of two 60 sec cold
pressor trials was identical for all groups and served as a base-line. The second trial was preceded
by acupuncture for the first group, placebo acupuncture for the second, and no treatment
for the third. Within each of these three groups, expectancy was manipulated prior to the
second trial: eight of the 24 subjects were led to expect less pain on the second trial (high
expectancy); eight were led to expect no change in pain (low expectancy); and eight were told
that the effect of treatment could not be predicted (no expectancy). Numerical rating of pain
intensity revealed no cases of dramatic pain reduction. Only subjects who received acupuncture
treatment in conjunction with the high expectancy manipulation reported significant pain
relief. Results are consistent with the view that acupuncture involves more than placebo factors,
but the treatment appears to require a positive attitude of the recipient to potentiate its
effect."
This is just what I found lying around...there's lots more out there and some of it supports acupuncture and some doesn't but it's interesting reading and there's more than enough to demonstrate that it has a basis in fact.
- devinv
September 18, 2008 11:23PM
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Amateur hour
devinv,
NY Acad of Sci is not peer-reviewed nor is it a medical journal.
Did you actually read the second article? It is really the work of amateurs. For one thing, it is way too small to come to a strong conclusion. I leave it to the reader to find the other flaws- there are many. If you can't find any, get R. Barker Bausell's book "Snake Oil Science" (Oxford, 2007) and study it.
The proponents have yet to provide reliable evidence that acupuncture works for any specific condition in humans.
- JJM
September 19, 2008 6:22AM
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amateur hour
JJM,
I'll take your word for it that the NY Acad of Sci is not peer reviewed nor a medical journal. Can you share a list of peer- reviewed medical journals so that I might confine my research to these publications?
Regarding size, how may subjects are required to make a study relevant? I get different results depending on who I ask.
I'm not an expert on research but these studies seem OK to me; they're limited in scope and they seem well-designed to study something as nebulous as perception of pain. While they should not be relied upon exclusively to form an opinion, I think they're adequate to demonstrate that the issue has not been settled definitively. If you've got the book handy maybe you can reference the relevant studies on acupuncture so I don't have to buy it. Thanks.
- devinv
September 26, 2008 8:59PM
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irrelevant argumentum ad nauseum
80% of what doctors do in actual practice is not evidence-based, so what is the use of your "high-quality" research? Iatrogenic illness is the single largest cause of death in this country, outside of natural causes. It's no different than when your medical forbears killed George Washington with arsenicals and called it "kidney failure."
- earthwater September 17, 2008 5:21PM
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ad populi
JJM,
Thanks for giving me something to think about. Consider these flaws in your argument:
To say that bleeding and violently toxic purgatives were popular is misleading. In medieval europe, it was not just popular, it was the only game in town. Something cannot be meaningfully said to be popular unless there is an alternative. Today we have alternatives for health care and lots of people find improvement with acupuncture _after_ they have tried western medicine and anything else that held promise of relief. Next, your comparison to slavery. Slavery was popular in various places throughout history, and (heaven forbid) may be again. It's wrong morally, but that has nothing to do with how effective it is. Slavery was popular because it works, regardless of right/wrong. Popularity is a _great_ gauge of efficacy when it comes to how people feel. If a movie is very popular, it doesn't mean you will like it, but it makes it much more likely. And movies are cheap. Acupuncture is expensive! If it wasn't making people feel better acupuncturists wouldn't be able to make a living without repeat business. It's not good for everything or everyone, but it is good for some.
- devinv
September 18, 2008 10:55PM
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Massage873
Having worked in Massage Therapy for 24 years and Nursing for 9 years I think it fair to say that I have seen more than the average number of cases wherein Western Medicine has not worked as claimed and people have sought help with conditions which respond better to alternative therapies; meaning more than just drugs and surgery.
Western medicine itself has a history of being wrong-minded and holding itself out to be expert in the field of healthcare so that they are living in a glass house and throwing stones; which begets an invitation to return the favor.
Suffice it to say that many of the drugs being prescribed are being done on an experimental basis with the belief that the doctor is in fact prescribing correctly and will make adjustments as the efficacy of the medications is determined. In fact many of the drugs being prescribed will state clearly in the literature that the manufacture has not determined the reason that the drug works, (lack of a plausible mechanism of action)only that it seems to work for some people for some problems being addressed.
Often the claims of efficacy of western medicine are greatly exagerated as well, and sometimes knowingly to elicit the benefit of the placebo effect or simply to put a positive spin on a product which turns a profit. Therefore the argument can be made that medications are often used deceptively.
As to clinical trial proving that acupuncture doesn't work, there have been well documented studies which have shown that it does work, as well as well documented research which has shown that when doctors go on strike from a hospital, fewer patients die.
Many more people are killed each year by medication errors made by western medical doctors than are killed each year by acupuncturists!
- Massage873 September 12, 2008 9:57PM
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Acupuncture!
The topic is acupuncture, what you write is irrelevant. Can you cite high-quality literature supporting acupuncture for any complaint?
- JJM
September 18, 2008 3:11PM
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Acupuncture!
How can you say that an argument is irrelevant when it refutes the statement by the expert witness for western medicine i.e. Bill Reddy, MD, who states that "Acupuncture lacks a plausible mechanism". I clearly addressed the point that we here practicing western medicine routinely administer drugs which are not understood either. i.e. gabapentin a.k.a. neurontin is listed in Davis Drug guide "Mechanism of action is not known".
There are numerous examples of these in our pharmacopoeia so if your standard of efficacy is a scientific "plausible mechanism" then the argument against Acupuncture falls flat against western medicine. Wherein then is the scientific evidence supporting western medicine for the various complaints it prescribes its drugs for?
And if you can't find documentation that thousands of people die each year of complications from western medicine then you simply aren't well informed as this is common knowledge and does not require estensive investigation ~ it is a given. Therefore the relevancy is that a system of medicine which kills thousands of people each year vs an alternative medicine which very well might help people without harming them needs to be considered as a viable option.
Case in point was a client of mine who was injured on the job as a telephone operator and her insurance company told her they were willing to authorize cortisone injections (but not more than three per year due to liver damage according to the western literature and common western protocols in place), or they were willing to authorize a bursectomy (surgical removal of the bursa in her shoulder) before they would consider authorizing Acupuncture treatment for her pain. Outcome was that she opted to take time off of work and pay for her own treatments and was better and able to return to work after only three acupuncture treatments. Too bad she had to bear the expense out of her own pocket for a treatment which was arguably less invasive, less expensive than surgery on many counts and even less perhaps than the potential damage to her liver from the cortisone injections despite the fact that the pharmaceutical companies profits might be adversely affected.
We seem to be getting the cart before the horse here in an effort to protect the turf of the western doctors and pharmaceutical companies in lieu of "first, do no harm", and advocating for the least invasive procedure first. Relevant ~ you bet! Hopefully your reliance on "high-quality literature" won't blind you to the possibilities for healing.
Massage873
- Massage873 September 18, 2008 11:19PM
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Major Medical Policy or Alternative Medicine?
If you made me choose between the two, today I would opt for Acupuncture and other forms of alternative medicine. My acupuncturist has helped me quit smoking. I've been smoke free for about 20 months now. I did not use any prescription medication or over the counter remdies. I had tried to quit smoking before using the patch, without success. One of my biggest concerns was that I would gain weight in the process. Today I weigh 12lbs less than the day I quit.
In the process of finding some food intolerances I have probably had for years, I have learned about antibiotics, candida yeast, sleep disturbances and more. Through this form of alternative medicine I have been empowered to take charge of my own health and get advice, guidance and treatment from time to time.
An acupuncture treatment costs 75% less than an office call, lasts longer and provides insight and results. In the event I become one more American without health insurance, I feel that I have a less expensive form of care that is more in tune with the results based treatment we are beginning to hear more about.
- IWishYouWell September 14, 2008 6:44PM
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Side: Yes
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Yes acupuncture works
I started acupuncture treatments about 6 years ago for fibromyalgia and asthma. With each acupuncture treatment my breathing improved so that after a couple of months I threw away my inhaler and was breathing more freely than when I had been on the medication. When I changed primary care physicians and gave him my history he tested my breathing and said he would never have known I had had asthma. Acupuncture along with chiropractic, massage therapy, reiki, and vitamin/diet therapy changed my life for the better. Traditional medicine had nothing to help the fibromyalgia, acupuncture and other alternative therapies did.
- GinaM September 15, 2008 9:17AM
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Yes, Acupuncture works for us...
I am a long time sufferer of migraines and also some sinus related conditions. I have been through umpteen drug regimens for both of these conditions and acupuncture made a HUGE difference for me.
My husband suffers from RLS - Restless Leg Syndrome. He has an Rx for Requip which has been marginally successful but acupuncture provided better and more immediate results. Within 3 weeks of going for treatments, the RLS practically ceased to exist. He is going to go to our MD to discuss and evaluate his treatment regimen. I am just thhankful that my husband was helped and that we have an MD who was fine with acupuncture treatments.
- zblair13
October 10, 2008 9:57AM
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Acupuncture
Some of the treatments I have received have worked and some have not.
Acupuncture has about a 755 success rate for me.
This is about 3 times more successful than traditional Western medicine.
- NOtopets
January 4, 2009 6:54PM
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Doesn't surprise me
Traditional "Western" Medicine is the biggest scam and the biggest load of crock anyone has ever come up with (save for organized religion).
Check out "Natural Cures" by Kevin Trudeau for more info!
- bagpiper2005
February 12, 2009 11:26AM
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Acupuncture Has Done Wonders For My Migraines
Thanks to acupuncture, my migraines have reduced the frequency, intensity, and lingering pain between attacks. It was much more effective than Midrin, Topamax, Imitrex, and some other medicines I've taken to try to control them.
Can't argue with those results. Natural medicine (including acupuncture) is the way to go!!! Don't go with synthesized drugs whose only job is to make you sicker so you need more drugs and then Big Pharma, greedy doctors, and the FDA pad their pocket books off of your misfortunes!!!
- bagpiper2005
January 28, 2009 12:26PM
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yes
ACUPUNCTURE CAN WORK FOR SOME PEOPLE.I FOR YOU HAVE NO USE FOR IT.
BUT IF IT WORKS FOR YOU GO FOR IT.
- zman
May 30, 2009 3:47PM
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the placebo effect
regardless of its roots in pre-scientific medicine , acupuncture still serves as a compelling cure to those who are willing to pay money for someone to stick needles in them.
- isotope
August 14, 2009 12:45PM
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homeopathy
Sure... and if someone is looking for some expensive water they can go talk to a homeopath...
- MrBook
September 12, 2009 12:34PM
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Nonsense
There is a similar type of quackery going on in the chiropractic field. We did a story on that:
"A tale of intrigue, featuring quackery, shady NUCCA* chiropractors, and "manual manipulation" brought to you by Samuel Homola, D.C." http://3healthymonkeys.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/nucca-national-upper-cervical-chiropractic-association-nonsense /
*National Upper Cervical Chiropractic Association
- The 3 Monkeys Guide to Health October 3, 2009 8:49AM
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