Experts and users discuss vegetarianism, food and nutrition, vegetarian: Are Vegetarians Healthier?

Regarding Question

Are Vegetarians Healthier?

Weston A. Price? Seriously?

To call this organization an expert is to misuse the word.

Anyway, the question is kind of weird, as it contributes to perpetuating a false dichotomy. Research shows that a plant-based diet is healthier than the standard American (U.S.) diet, but there is not yet a preponderance of evidence to indicate that a very (very!) small amount of certain (not all!) animal products as part of a whole foods diet is harmful overall.

Ultimately, the best reason to be vegan is for the animals. Any health benefits that accrue as a result of that decision should be thought of as a bonus.

- Eric Prescott October 8, 2008 10:34AM

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- Bonus!
  
  "Ultimately, the best reason to be vegan is for the animals. Any health benefits that accrue as a result of that decision should be thought of as a bonus."
  
  Well said.
  And it's a good bonus!
  
  Both my mom and my husband went veg for health reasons. They've stayed veg for both health and ethical reasons. If you're already healthy, go veg for ethical reasons. If you're not healthy, go veg for health reasons.
  
  - ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 11:23AM
  
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- Weston A. Price. Great contributor to nutritional studies.
  
  Any diet is better than the standard American diet. The quality, source, and freshness of food is the most important factor. Vegetarians will experience nutritional deficiencies if they do not supplement their diets.
  Can you survive in the wild as a vegetarian ? For about 2 weeks.
  
  - coachE September 2, 2009 10:20AM
  
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When we see a bird, we do not salivate

When a brightly-colored goldfinch comes to the birdfeeder, we may admire him, we may vicariously sense his contentment, we may be happy for him. We would make an effort to avoid hitting him when driving, and would feel awful if we harmed him. This is our natural state of being.

When we see a ripe apple on the tree, it sure looks good.

When we see roadkill, we may feel a sick. But a plump red tomato on the vine, ready to fall off, is almost irresistable.

As children, our friends included stuffed animals, and we had affection for cartoon or storybook animals. We may have pulled doggy's tail occasionally, but we more likely cried uncontrollably when the family pet died.

Our innate senses are not carnivorous; they are the opposite.

We have a natural affinity toward other sentient beings. We sense that their joy and pain is similar to our joy and pain, which forms a basis for empathy.

But unfortunately we have the capacity to harden our hearts in order to engage in selfish exploitations. We've done this with human as well as animal victims.

We invent all manner of self-serving, psuedo-religious and psuedo-philosophical reasons for oppressing others - human and non-human. We dumb our victims down and speak of them as an aggregate. We develop ceremonies and build institutions to distance ourselves from the atrocities we commit, and to give them an appearance of legitimacy. We've done this throughout recorded history, and probably long before.

One may as well claim we've evolved as war-mongers, therefore we ought to keep on waging war.

We have a frightening capability to rationalize, and get used to virtually any form of cruelty from which we derive some pleasure, no matter how superficial or indulgent or ill-gotten. But in our heart of hearts we want to be peaceful and kind to others - human and non-human. When we're kind to animals, our conscience knows we did the right thing. We can fulfill that inner longing, which is resonant with our deepest moral principles, and which brings steadfast and radiant peace, by evolving to a vegan diet, and by looking for and thus finding additional ways in which to exist in harmony, humbly, non-violently with other creatures.

- garyl October 8, 2008 11:35PM

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- Speak for yourself!
  
  I don't know about you, but I look at a good steer and think steak, I see a healthy dairy cow and I think about milk, butter, cheese, yoghurt, and ice cream. I see pig and I think bacon, I see turkey and I think Thanksgiving. If animals were not meant to be eaten, they wouldn't be made out of meat, and the human body would not require nutrients that can only be found in their flesh.
  
  - richardsonkr January 24, 2009 11:49PM
  
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  - I am sorry you have lost empathy
    
    When you see birds in flight, do you not feel their joy? Do you only think of their flesh? If so, that is too bad. You have become disconnected.
    
    When a nest with baby robins falls down, do you feel sympathy for the family or do you think "Oh good, now I can eat them."
    
    When you see a dog, do you think "steak?"
    
    When you see a weak, lost dog, belonging to no one, do you think "easy steak?"
    
    I volunteer at a farmed animal sanctuary, and the vast majority of people who visit - most of whom are meat-eaters, and including the families who are on a county-wide "farm tour" and not exclusively going to the sanctuary - feel affinity toward the animals as they get to know them individually, as they see their personalities and their dignity, and witness their joy of life, at accomplishing tasks, at partaking in lasting friendships.
    
    I see this especially in children, but also in most adults. Perhaps at the sanctuary, meeting the animals, it is safe for adults, especially men, to express some empathy and kind sentiments toward the animals.
    
    Children naturally think of animals as friends. Their stories, their movies, their toys strongly reflect this attachment. But since our society is vested in exploiting animals, we basically lie to children about the torment and harm we cause to animals in the process of making them food and other products. We also lie to ourselves, and we teach our children to gradually get used to animals being exploited, and to not think about their misery in factory farms, or the one-day old calf on a dairy farm being stolen from his mother (standard practice), or the frantic "breeding turkey" struggling as two men hold her down to inject semen into her vagina. We block out the horrors of still-bleeding pigs thrashing in tanks of hot water in slaughterhouses until they drown; we inure ourselves to the suffering of farmed animals' pain, we get hooked on feasting on the products of exploitation and torture.
    
    But this can be un-done. We have consciences that allow us to feel bad about inflicting avoidable harm on fellow sentient beings. We have the capacity to feel compassion, to not want to hurt others if that can be avoided. We have brains and inventiveness that allow us to produce b-12 supplements that don't require violence. (Do note that many meat-eaters also have b-12 deficiencies.) We have the brains to realize that vegans as a group tend to be healthy as long as they follow some simple guidelines, thus proving that we can do fine without eating animal products.
    
    Yes, animal flesh may taste good. Human flesh might taste good, too. But our morals aren't defined by what tastes good. They are based on universal principles: The golden rule, showing kindness, being humble and unselfish. When we follow these basic maxims and extend compassion as widely as possible, we feed our souls with needed nutrients: empathy, friendship, and connectedness with nature and all living beings.
    
    - garyl January 25, 2009 2:05PM
    
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  - Your reactions to certain animals may be conditioned, not innate
    
    If I may add just a bit more to my response.
    
    Of my many friends and relatives who eat animal products, none - unless perhaps acting out of bravado or trying to provoke me - has seriously looked at a dairy cow close up, in the eye, and thought "ice cream." I doubt that in such a situation, their, or your, salivary glands would start to produce saliva and that they, or you, would get hunger pangs. They may be more likely to pet the cow if she were friendly.
    
    None have indicated any desire to suck on the cow's teats and ingest the warm mammary fluid that comes out. I doubt that any would want to shove the mother's calf aside so they could have a drink. Furthermore, in nature, they probably wouldn't be able to do that even if they wanted to - a protective bull would be standing guard. Also, in nature, a cow would have her first calf around four years old, rather than at 18 months, when we first artificially impregnate her, and sde would produce one-fifth or less the amount of milk that we have coaxed out of modern dairy cows through intensive breeding.
    
    When you see a pregnant pig or a dog do you think "yogurt?" It's possible to make yogurt from their milk, too. Human milk, also. I suspect there's been some conditioning that has affected your reactions.
    
    But that can be un-donel and in fact, if guided by compassion and empathy for animals, it is quite easy to think of them in new, non-exploitative ways.
    
    - garyl January 25, 2009 3:12PM
    
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    - MY reactions are conditioned?
      
      When primitive man saw a bird in flight, he didn't get a warm feeling in his pants and have flight fantasies. He tried to figure out how to get it down so he could eat it and stay alive. When primitive man saw a fallen nest, he ate the eggs. When he saw a dog, he tamed it, and made it into a hunting companion. When he saw the amount of sustenance a cow could provide her calf, he utilized that sustenance. When he saw goats, pigs, and other animals, he probably did the same with them as well, and there are examples of people using horses in history. Ultimately man found cattle to be best, and also found them easy to keep and raise for meat. Once man had picked out the best animals for agriculture, (mostly cattle, swine, sheep, goats, fowl, etc.) in addition to the best plants, he relied on them, and, when compared to his previous state, he wallowed in plenty, and no longer had to view every animal and plant as potential food. He was able to allow himself the luxury of eating only certain animals, and allowed himself to be conditioned into regarding the others as non-food items. Then, and only then, could he imagine flying with birds, or feel sypathy for a fallen nest. After man had become so successful he could disconnect from the harsh realities of life could he develop empathy. The unfortunate continuation of this, of course, is in the modern world, when food magically arrives at the supermarket in all of its plentiful glory, and most people are totally disconnected to the food that they eat, to the back-breaking labor that went into it, to the blood, sweat, and tears used to make it. Real life is not easy. It is hard, brutal, and bloody. Easy is a fantasy made up by fat people living a nice, cushy life on their nice, cushy sofa in front of the television screen. The fact that these fat, cushy people occassionally get off their fat, sensitive asses and see real animals and treat them like pets is not a demonstration of human nature. It's a demonstration of how far from nature we've gotten. Now shut up and eat your meat.
      
      - richardsonkr January 26, 2009 7:30PM
      
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      - Your version of history is wrong and self-serving
        
        Ancient art and stories affirm that early humans felt kinship to the animals and the earth. Many aboriginal peoples eat a mostly vegetarian diet . Little kids will pet a bunny but eat an apple - they instinctively know the difference. To combat discomfort at having to kill a sentient being, humans invented elaborate distancing and rationalizing mechanisms: prayers for the animals, hunting rituals...more recently, myths that we need meat to survive and that farm animals are treated well.
        
        The first "pet" dogs may have been injured wolves rescued and rehabilitated by kind and sympathetic women.
        
        Once man started dominating animals, he became harsher and more distant from nature and his true nature. As man came to control and oppress animals about 10,000 years ago, we see a transition in artwork and ancient writings from respecting a feminine mother earth to a desire to dominate and control. Cattle became property, and so did humans whom men could control ("chattel," "capital," and "cattle" have the same root). Those with the most property exerted power over those with less.
        
        In this country, in the 1880s, cattle ranchers displaced Indians (many of whom had a largely vegetarian diet rich in grains, vegetables, and beans) from their lands, and gradually wiped out vast amounts of native flora and fauna, displaced by the non-native cattle. We developed conditions as described in Sinclair Lewis' "The Jungle." We developed factory farms - concentration camp-like operations in which 10 billion animals a year suffer despair, misery, and deprivation.
        
        You're right - we have grown distant from our food. Most people who drink milk have no idea that we keep dairy cows almost constantly pregnant and steal their babies so we can have all the milk. Hardly anyone who eats eggs realizes that nearly all hens come from hatcheries in which newborn male chicks are summarily killed, usually by suffocation, gassing, or being ground up alive. At the farm sanctuary, people meet grown-up, rescued veal calves for the first time, and see how friendly they are, and it's transformative. My mother saw the intelligence and personalities of chickens, and their sheer delight at being alive, and decided she could no longer eat chicken. She followed her better nature.
        
        When we are kind and respectful, we tend to operate better. When we give peace, we find peace. When we act in accordance with our deepest morals, such as being generous and following the golden rule, we no longer carry the burden of having to deceive ourselves about the avoidable harm we cause. Try a vegan diet with an open mind and optimistic attitude and I can nearly guarantee that you will experience the kinship with other animals that our most ancient ancestors felt. It's a magnificent feeling.
        
        - garyl January 26, 2009 8:31PM
        
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        No arguing with revisionist history.
        
        You can think what you want about history. An informed and discerning audience is going to see the true story. I would advise you to spend a week in the woods with nothing but your hands and your wits and we'll see how long your compassion holds up. Also, find me just one example of an aboriginal culture that is vegetarian, with an independant source to back it up. A vegan group doesn't count. Primitive man didn't revere animals out of compassion, they revered them because that's what kept them alive.
        
        - richardsonkr January 26, 2009 9:08PM
        
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        The question is "What should I do, today?"
        
        If you read anthropology you will see that there are peoples whose diets are mostly plant-based throughout the world. This information is almost too easy find with a few online searches. In our neck of the woods, Indians such as the Choctaw and Cherokee had a largely plant-based diet: many vegetables, grains, legumes, and fruits that we enjoy today were developed by the Indians.
        
        There is such an abundance of expression of pure reverence and kinship with animals, from all times and all places, independent of whether the animals were used for food, that it is pointless to debate whether such evidence exists.
        
        Likewise, the story of how cattle ranching displaced native peoples and animals and destroyed Western habitat is thoroughly documented. Today, modern animal farming produces massive amounts of pollution and is a major ecological threat.
        
        But we're straying...
        
        When I asked the question about how you felt when you saw a fallen nest with baby robins, you did not answer the question. Instead, you imagined what the ancients might have done. If you are like most people, I will assume you feel some sympathy for the tiny helpless creatures and out of kindness you would pick them up and put the nest back securely in its place. And because you have a heart, you may feel some happiness when you see the mother bird once again feeding her young, and feel good about how you helped to make that so.
        
        There is no reason to believe that someone in that same position 50,000 years ago would have felt any differently. Our DNA and basic makeup hasn't changed. It is natural to feel empathy with other sentient beings. The animals share most of our genes, and it is well-proven and obvious that they experience emotions such as joy and fear. They're far more like us than like inanimate objects. That is why children have stuffed animals with names, why we cry when our dog dies, and why animals loom so large in how our ancient ancestors related to the world.
        
        Of course, ancient peoples lived under a far different set of circumstances than us. Today, we're not compelled to emulate everything that was done thousands of years ago - and it's a good thing. Similarly, we need not act as though we're alone in the woods, fighting for our survival - under extreme circumstances, people are forced to turn to extreme measures, sometimes even cannibalism. Today in our daily lives, and at every meal, we have many choices available, some kinder than others. Choose kindness and you will embrace rather than be threatened by a non-violent diet.
        
        - garyl January 26, 2009 10:15PM
        
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        BTW, meat-eaters are no mooe independent than vegans
        
        Just an aside... If a vegan group's assessment (of, say, aboriginal cultures) is automatically dismissed, then so should that of a group comprised mostly of meat-eaters. Meat-eaters have a vested interest in justifying their avoidable violence, and in my experience, will often go to great lengths to do so.
        
        In fact, I would argue that vegans, as a whole, in this part of the world, are more independent; they have questioned the ethics of their diets and transcended cultural norms.
        
        One last reiteration...Yes, your views of animals as food are largely culturally influenced. Offer chicken feet to a group of Americans and they'll go "yuck." Yet down the street, Chinese are eating them without any such thoughts. Conditioning is powerful, especially when it starts in childhood. But we can evolve.
        
        Peace and good fortune.
        
        - garyl January 26, 2009 10:58PM
        
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Hard to say

Depends on what you eat either way I guess.

You could eat tofu and live an additional ten years but that's just ten more years of eating tofu.....

- F2XL October 13, 2008 4:33PM

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We vegetarians are healthier!

I have been a lacto-ovo vegetarian for almost 20 years, am raising my children as vegetarian, my son is 10 and has never eaten meat. I feel that it is a healthier diet and better for the environment and most certainly, the animals.

- NoCircRN October 15, 2008 8:32PM

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- You rock!
  
  That's really cool that your son has never eaten meat. My parents were vegetarians , but my mom started letting me eat meat. I didn't know any better back when I was three, but now I still feel very guilty about ever eating it.
  
  - madninjamonkey December 15, 2008 2:57PM
  
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Vegetarianism is a psychological symptom of unsustainable civilization

Fear of death influences our relationship with food. A primary way this occurs is by projecting our fear of death onto animals.

== Killing animals ==

Killing is the only way in which most modern humans acquire food. Scavenging isn't too popular these days. Objections to killing animals have led many to adopt vegetarian diets. Some folks are even trying to figure out how to grow meat in vats.

As an aside, I'm not against vegetarianism, veganism, fruitarianism, or any other crazy-ass diet. If you want to eat some way, eat that way. It does not have to be justified. I think the justifications given for vegetarianism are wrong though. To quickly address justifications not related to killing:

* Animal Cruelty - Eating animals is not synonymous with eating factory farmed meat. I personally avoid factory farmed meat for nutritional reasons and because it's production is unnecessarily cruel. Chucking a spear into a dear or buffalo is not unnecessarily cruel. Nature is no better [1] (and there are reasons for it [2]).
* Nutrition - Historically and anatomically speaking, humans are adapted to eat animals[3]. It's obviously not necessary, but ideal nutrition includes eating animals.
* Sustainability - Eating meat is not sustainable? 6 billion people is not sustainable. Our single species is using 14-26% of the total photosynthetic production of the planet[4]. If everybody eats beans and rice in a state of near-famine, we can support an even larger population. Is that a worthwhile goal?

Most people that consume meat do not kill their own meat. Most people who eat meat have not even seen someone else kill an animal for food. If I were to invite friends over and feed them braised rabbit, most would eat it and (I hope) enjoy it. Were I to mention that before they came over, I took a rabbit, whacked its head with a brick to stun it, cut its jugular, then gutted and skinned it, I would receive shocked looks. The modern food production system has abstracted us away from the concrete experience of killing an animal. Meat does not grow pre-cut in plastic-wrapped styrofoam containers, waiting to be harvested and labeled for sale by Wal-Mart.

One result of this abstraction away from killing is that many people now frown upon hunting. It's ridiculous. Other species hunt. Paleolithic humans and earlier homonids lived as hunter-gatherers. That should be enough to justify hunting as a legitimate part of the human experience. Instead, people sneer at "redneck" hunters as "uncivilized" and then go celebrate "progress" by spending huge portions of their lives at work to earn money to buy hormone-laden, tasteless, nutritionally deficient meat products (not meat, meat products). Just grab some friends, sharpen some sticks, and go kill the damn thing yourself.

Another result of abstraction away from killing is that vegetarianism and veganism have become popular in the last few decades. When killing is not understood to be a part of life, all life—not just human, then one can begin to explore the idea that it is normal to forgo it entirely. There have always been those that eschewed meat for religious reasons, but they were consciously trying to leave everyday experience of the world in search of the "divine". People spurn other forms of religious ascetism because they recognize how neurotic it is. The religious view is just as fucked up in this case.

Speaking of religion, through schooling and everyday experience of the modern world we are inculcated with the idea that humans are somehow different than the rest of the living world. This idea originated in religious traditions—go read Genesis. Our species is the one made in god's image? What hubris. Darwinian evolution is rejected by the Catholic church to this day because it implies that humans are just another animal. What's funny is that even the secular world has adopted it, witness the soccer-moms gossiping about how horrible hunting is. Those who object to meat consumption often brush off other animals doing so stating that it is the carnivore's nature or that it cannot consciously choose, while we can. What arrogance! Perhaps the animals simply eat what works best instead of restricting their diet and then getting their rocks off on a sense of superiority over the rest of existence.

== Killing plants ==

People seem to be very into arbitrary divisions. Humans vs. non-conscious life (Michael Pollan has a good 20 min. talk on this [5]). Plants vs. animals. Many people say I should eat plants and not animals. It's interesting that people believe that plants do not suffer when dying. Perhaps we're just too biologically distant to have our empathy triggered or to project our own fears of death onto an ear of corn or a tomato. Aspargus doesn't scream when you cut off its roots. An blog post worth reading entitled Plants are People, Too[6] at Anthropik discusses biological markers of stress in plants:

Continued (and cites) in sub-comment...

- Kobold October 27, 2008 1:08AM

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- cont'd
  
  ----
  Researchers have even discovered the chemical markers of stress in plants, just like they have identified the chemical markers of stress in humans. Such evidence suggests that plants might even experience some analogue of emotion.
  
  > Koussevitzky, looking at the end of the signaling pathway, found the
  > corresponding binding factor known that ABI4, a known plant transcription
  > factor. It prevents light-induced regulatory factors from activating gene
  > expression. Additional work in the project had determined that the
  > chloroplast-localized, nuclear-encoded protein GUN1 is required for
  > integrating multiple stress-derived signals within the chloroplast. This
  > work was conducted by the first co-author of the article, Ajit Nott, who
  > was a research associate in Dr. Chory’s lab.
  
  > Many of the nuclear genes that encode chloroplast proteins are regulated by
  > a “master switch” in response to environmental conditions. This “master
  > switch,” like a binary computer, can activate or de-activate certain sets
  > of genes based on stress signaling processes.
  
  > “One of our suggestions in the paper is that ABI4 seems like a prime
  > candidate to be the ‘master switch,’” Koussevitzky said. “ABI4 binds to a
  > newly identified sequence motif, and by doing so prevents light-induced
  > regulatory factors from activating gene expression. It has a role in so
  > many signaling processes in the plant, it might actually be the ‘master
  > switch’ that researchers have been looking for.” (Trent, 2007)
  ----
  
  Plants might even experience some analog of emotion? How could they not? Every organism that responds to the outside world occupies a certain perceptual universe, an umwelt[7]. This umwelt combines sensory experiences pertinent to the organism's survival and reproduction with the salience of the perception to produce "the world" for that animal. If plant cells are producing chemical stress signals then they occupy an umwelt as surely as humans do.
  
  == Recoil ==
  
  Humans started large scale agriculture with cereal-grain monocropping to ensure a regular food supply. It also enables vegetarianism, which is calorically infeasible without the carbohydrates available from processed grains. If energy is not obtained from carbohydrates, which are relatively scarce in nature, it must be obtained from fat. No contemporary hunter-gatherer group has been found with a diet free of all animal products.
  
  The back breaking labor agriculture requires of farmers took a great toll on them historically (we currently use fossil-fuels to avoid this). Cereal-grains are also a poor nutritional staple[8] further weakening them (and us). Large scale agriculture also depletes soil nutrients[9] so that our descendants will have trouble feeding themselves.
  
  1. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/12/indonesia
  2. http://www.reddit.com/info/6ndbr/comments/c04cr9n
  3. http://www.beyondveg.com/cordain-l/metab-carn/metabolic-carnivory-1a.shtml
  4. http://www.worldwildlife.org/science/pubs/imhoff_nature.pdf
  5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQPN1O03z8I&feature=related
  6. http://anthropik.com/2007/08/plants-are-people-too /
  7. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umwelt
  8. http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Cereal %20article.pdf
  9. http://www.ifpri.org/2020/BRIEFS/number62.htm
  
  - Kobold October 27, 2008 8:23AM
  
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  - logicial mistakes
    
    Significant grain consumption is not necessary for vegetarianism . It would be hard to do without beans, but beans can replenish the soil. Olives, nuts, avocadoes, etc. can provide tons of fat.
    The science about so-called plant sentience is simply not credible. They have nothing remotely resembling a nervous system. Stress chemicals are not relevant, since any cell would show some signs of stress.
    Are you planning to start working on how to develop grass anesthesia for mowing lawns?
    
    - happiness1535 June 13, 2009 11:15AM
    
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- Killing plants is not the same as killing animals
  
  Plants do not have a brain, a nervous system, or pain receptors, so they can't suffer when someone eats them. I don't feel bad if I eat lettuce, but I would never be able to forgive myself if I ate a steak.
  
  - madninjamonkey December 15, 2008 2:59PM
  
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  - Suffering.
    
    But you don't feel bad that people toiled long hard hours bent over, baking in the heat for very little compensation. Something you would never "lower" yourself to.
    
    So you place the suffering of humans below the suffering of an animal.
    
    - SocialistBetty December 30, 2008 9:36AM
    
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    - Reply to SocialistBetty
      
      Of course I don't feel bad for other human beings! I also don't feel bad for the workers in a chicken factory who are mostly Latin Americans with very little pay or education. They have to work in a blood and excrement-filled factory and repeat the same monotonous task so often that they are in risk of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. I care very much!
      
      I do not think that humans deserve to suffer more than animals do. I am simply choosing between whether a human suffers or a human and an animal suffers. What do you think is the best choice?
      
      - madninjamonkey December 30, 2008 11:27AM
      
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      - Whatever you feel is best...
        
        I was picking on you... but it is a valid point.
        
        If you want to eat meat, but don't agree with the methods and means (which is my shituation), there are alternatives. Most 4-H animals are raised with love and care. You can eat kosher meat... in which the manner of death is quick and relatively painless. Anyone who's tried to commit suicide via ye old wrist slice will tell you it hurts only for a moment.
        
        If you don't want to eat meat because of the environmental costs associated with it, it would be best if you only ate what seasonally available or you'd be running into the same problems.
        
        If you don't want to eat meat because there's no valid reason at all to eat meat, you don't have to do anything but ensure you're eating the proper amounts of different veggies, nuts, legumes, and beans... and fruit. Maybe take some vitamins...
        
        But despite this, the fact that human beings suffer greatly doesn't go away. I would suggest you work for a summer in a fields and see exactly how back-breaking it is... that you live in housing that's provided and experience the conditions that migrant farm workers live in. Then you might be able to make a better decision as to just kind of suffering I'm talking about. There is a very real fight going on in this country that most people know nothing about. Child labour, abuse, degradation... people simply buy their vegetables and think nothing of it. You live in Oregon... how many tomatoes are growing right now? It's winter... that's right. Tomatoes don't grow in the winter. Where did they come from, then? Where does your food come from and do you know that there is no suffering of humans? Does it make okay to eat what you're eating because an animal isn't dying? Are you satisfied with your choice of promoting the abuse and suffering of humans to suit your high level of vegetable consumption? If everyone were to stop eating meat, imagine the demands on the farming industry.
        
        Eating vegetables is something everyone should do, but just because the cabbage doesn't suffer doesn't mean there are no problems associated with being complete vegetarian; or that there is no suffering involved. Neither does ignoring the problems make them go away.
        
        That's all I'm saying.
        
        - SocialistBetty December 30, 2008 3:00PM
        
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        Reply to SocialistBetty
        
        Please believe me - slashing your wrists does NOT hurt for just a second. But let's focus on the animals instead of my messed-up life.
        
        I am vegan because I don't just have a problem with the way that animals are treated in meat, dairy, and egg farms, I have a problem with the fact that animals are being killed for food. I don't really care if the steak on my plate had a happy life once, it is still a piece of flesh off of a corpse and I helped kill a living, pain-feeling being for almost no reason at all. Not eating meat does help the environment and your health, but even if there were absolutely no benefit to the planet or me from going vegan, I still wouldn't eat animal problems because I believe that it is morally wrong. (For more information please go to: http://www.goveg.com/theissues.asp )
        
        I'm not trying to ignore the problem, I'm just trying to fix what I can. I can't do anything about child labor and exploitation; as much as I would like to help, I am thirteen. I don't think that anyone would take me seriously. If you can think of a way that doesn't involve killing something to help stop human suffering, by all means let me know.
        
        - madninjamonkey December 30, 2008 7:48PM
        
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        And there wasn't a 9 yr old on the floor of the UN?
        
        You're better suited than anyone else then. Those are you peers. There are kids your age out there who are picking the vegetables YOU eat, bent over for hours and hours and yours. You're old enough to do it, go out and do it this summer. Tell you mom you want to know where your food really comes from. I don't think you really have any idea.
        
        And obviously, you didn't do it right if it hurt for more than 5 seconds.
        
        Is it morally wrong for the wolf to eat the caribou? For the bear to eat the salmon? The crow to eat the bug? Or are they eating what is available to them?
        
        The only way that you can truly eat morally is to eat what is available to you at the time and to grow your own food in the summer. But if you want to ignore that, go right ahead. It won't change the fact that you're ignoring the moral implications of eating only vegetables all the time simply because you want to.
        
        I have venison in the crock pot that I killed. It died in 5 seconds. Unlike the veggies in there with it, the suffering of that animal is nothing compared to the suffering inflicted upon the humans who gathered them, nor the gas that burnt to ship them here, nor the cost. But believe what you want to, simply because it suits your ideals to do so. Morals be damned. There's only comparatives anyway.
        
        - SocialistBetty December 31, 2008 12:13PM
        
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        More comments in this thread
- no arrogance involved
  
  Carnivorous animals would die if they did not hunt. It is not a matter of what works best, but what works at all.
  It is no less absurd to say that being involved in meat production should make the production more acceptable to a person than being involved in abortion should make abortion more acceptable to a person. Some may learn psychological numbing, but others will feel the revulsion more intensely than they would have had they have had they not been involved.
  Death may happen, but we must do whatever possible to minimize it.
  There is a reason why we believe in retributive punishment for humans but not for animals (I hope you see what that addresses and why).
  
  - happiness1535 June 13, 2009 11:23AM
  
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It all depends on the food choices

Both still depend on food choices to determine which is more healthful.

My son and friends are vegetarian. Their idea of vegetarianism was eating no meat and replacing it with junk food. His girlfriend went to the hospital once because of these poor food choices.

Same is true for non-vegetarian too. You can eat lean meats or eat pork rinds all day. It's all about the choices.

As for the question of "Are Vegetarians Healthier?", I don't believe this is true, because eating a vegetarian diet is more difficult to adhere to, many vegetarians lack the proper amount of protein in their diets, and doctor usually tell pregnant woman to eat a traditional diet during the pregnancy. Also, if you eat fish too much, you expose yourself to accumulation of mercury.

In my experience, most of the vegetarians that I know actually experience lower levels of health and prone to illness.

Tim Rosanelli
View my blog at
Sensei Talks
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- Tim Rosanelli October 30, 2008 6:00AM

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No, many vegetarians are not healthier. Vaccinations, Mental, etc.

Only a few who are well-trained in nutrition and in proper cooking techniques actually live a fairly healthier life. I know at least 1,000 vegetarians who are friends and family members or acquaintances and I can safely say that over half of them don't even look healthy or healthier than meat -eating individuals. It's amazing to see how vegetarians or vegans have this "holier than thou" attitude and they can't even see how sicker and worse they look and/or function compared to most people.

I don't eat meat everyday, and when I do, mainly free range chicken etc. and occasionaly eat steak. I have a Master degree in Nutrition and I know my stuff. I am healthier than a hundred vegetarians that I know in my life. All these discussions about sickness, disease, etc. all of these problems are not caused just by food consumption. Mental health plays a big role. Vaccination with all the lethal and unnecessary ingredients ( http://www.whale.to/vaccines.html ) plus the motive for profits, plays the biggest role in the rise of autoimmune diseases. Also, doctors dispensing ungodly amount of painkillers and drugs to patients that they (supposedly) must take for the rest of their lives (and no long term research to back that up). All of these and more, count for the cause of increase in sickness and lowered health quality. That's why USA is at #37 in the world in healthy quality according to WHO, under some third world countries like Costa Rica.

- as310884 April 10, 2009 8:13PM

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Show us the link between disease and eating meat

because there is none. There may be peripheral factors some meat eaters engage in which are putting them at risk. But the science does not support vegetarianism or veganism as a healthier alternative. In fact the case can be made that meat is a necessary part of your diet , and that you can live on it exclusively. Food is a choice. For a long time I wanted to be vegetarian , or even vegan, god forbid, because I had issues with agriculture and saw the PETA videos, and bought into the propaganda that meat was unhealthy. But never did I feel eating meat was inherently wrong. Humans and other animals eat each other and have since time immemorial.

Again, there is no llink between animal products and cancer , stroke, diabetes, cholesterol problems, etc. If you can find it, publish it.

- vspoils June 15, 2009 10:20AM

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Something philosophical

"Ultimately, the best reason to be vegan is for the animals . Any health benefits that accrue as a result of that decision should be thought of as a bonus."

It's not necessarily the best reason, depending on what you believe.

Morals differ from man to man. As such, eating meat is wrong to one person while it's God-given to another.

If you're a Christian who believes his Bible more than PETA 's hype, meat eating is acceptable. Jesus ate fish and had to eat the passover lamb to follow Jewish law . In fact, commanding to abstain from meats/ food is considered apostasy. (Get e-sword or some concordance if you want to find sources.)

If you're an Orthodox Jew, it is (or at least was) required that you eat the passover lamb by Jewish law. You cannot be vegetarian and follow that law.

If you're a Hindu, eating meat and killing are an abomination according to the Vedas.

For Buddhists, it depends on the school (some allow eating but not directly killing).

- Captain Cook August 12, 2009 12:57PM

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- Consider the source...
  
  The beliefs became indoctrinated because of indigenous taboos derived from health practices.
  
  Once you understand how trichonosis can be prevented, though, it's ok to eat some pig. Health wise.
  
  I think that vegatarian's in the modern world are typically healthier, because they are health conscious anyway. There are certainly health conscious people with meat in their diet that are just as healthy though.
  
  Another consideration is that many processed foods derive from unhealthy vegetable and unhealthy meat sources, but vegatarians tend to avoid these, as well.
  
  Finally, we should be able to synthesize an ideal diet without animals dieing or the need for inefficent farming, if we wish to survive our technological, overpopulating, adolescence. Meat is very expensive food ecologically and economically.
  
  - Submariner September 4, 2009 4:05PM
  
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lacebones

If it is o.k. for people to eat animals , then it is o.k. for animals to eat people. UH OH! I forgot that people are the center of the universe and they are SOOO... special that they think everything on the earth is here for them to use like trash. People do not need meat or dairy products. All people are is selfish and cruel!

- lacebones August 19, 2009 5:08PM

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Regarding Argument

Vegetarian Kids Grow up Slim & Healthy

- From PETA

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Vegetarianism Isn't Automatic Health Nirvana!

As much as vegetarianism helps our health, let's not assume that vegetarianism automatically makes you healthy, or that vegetarianism always keeps you slim. I became a vegetarian on my own (with two meat-eating parents no less!) around 5th grade, and besides one slide from vegetarianism early on, I've stayed that way. And I'm anything but slim and healthy! Am I slim and healthy? Certainly not. I'm a fast and furious eater, and have only just started excercising, and have maintained a chubby body size for years. Had I eaten meat since 5th grade, however, I would almost certainly be obese.

Even just eating less meat helps, when going fully vegetarian just won't happen. Americans eat far more meat than most countries: there's meat in everything, as any vegetarian knows well. It's hard to escape this, and all the extra fat in meat coupled with large portions and an inactive lifestyle common to we Americans makes meat-eating a bad idea, unless you're taking steps to be healthy anyways.

- Blue Linchpin December 17, 2008 11:58AM

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Who'd live longer?

I wonder...if all a person ate was plants and fruit and was not able to take any supplementation of any kind, how long would they really live? There would be no B12 or iron available. Their levels of biotin would be next to nill. My guess - not very long and not very well.

However, on a diet of meat (including the organs), fish, eggs, poultry you could live very well forever. You'd be deficient in nothing - not even vitamin C.

Eating meat does not make one obese. This is absurd. Eating too much food makes you obese and specifically too many carbohydrates like pasta, rice, breads, etc.

- Fredrick Hahn January 19, 2009 5:11PM

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Maybe

Maybe, just maybe, any parent that is responsible enough to control their children 's diet , at least to the extent that someone who is imposing a vegan diet, will have healthy kids . Someone who doesn't take their kids to a fast food place because they don't feel like making something. Someone who doesn't have a fridge full of snacks that the children become conditioned to go for whenever they don't feel full. If you eat enough of anything you'll probably end up over weight. I wouldn't go around blaming meat .

- keytud August 3, 2009 9:08AM

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Why is children being "slim" such an important thing?!

No, we shouldn't be endorsing overeating and obesity , but for some reason it'sabadthing for children tobe overweight (a lot of people don't know there's a difference between being over weight and obesity...). What's next? Soon the United States is going to expect newborns to come out only 5 lbs. because then they'll grow up to be "slim, healthy adults".

- ekblosser October 26, 2009 9:50PM

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- Amen to the above
  
  as you said we shouldnt endorse obesity but in some cases such as anexoria it is just as bad or in extreme cases worses. Also the loss of self esteem if one cant be a size 2..it is rediculous...and your comment about coming out at 5 lbs to be slim reminds me of the insurance that denied to cover the baby because it was considered "Fat"....
  
  - cbooh October 30, 2009 7:18PM
  
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Regarding Argument

A Vegetarian Diet Protects Against Disease

- From PETA

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Regarding Argument

A Vegetarian Diet is Fit for Champions

- From PETA

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Vegetarians Athlete. An Oxymoron.

Vegetarian athletes are prone to many nutritional deficiencies; including vitamin D, B-12, as well a protein deficiencies. The worlds fastest man, the worlds strongest man, and the worlds best swimmer,are all omnivores. You can get by on a vegetarian diet but you can't thrive.

- coachE September 2, 2009 10:15AM

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Regarding Argument

Vegan Foods Don’t Naturally Contain Fecal Bacteria

- From PETA

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Regarding Argument

Vegetarians Enjoy Lower Cancer Risk

- From PCRM

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More reasons to go veg:

Just watch...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXuY8rK3kTw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 11:14AM

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Regarding Argument

Vegetarians Are More Likely To Have a Healthy Weight

- From PCRM

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Our conscience is lighter, too.

A Gallup poll recently found:
"A quarter of Americans say animals deserve the same rights as humans, while almost all of the rest agree that animals should be given some protection from harm and exploitation."

But so long as intensive animal agriculture remains, in fact, any animal agriculture, some people will harm and exploit animals.

The ONLY way to prevent cruelty is to go vegan.

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 11:17AM

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- Gallup poll source
  
  http://www.gallup.com/poll/107293/PostDerby-Tragedy-38-Support-Banning-Animal-Racing.aspx
  
  - ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 11:17AM
  
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Regarding Argument

Low-Fat Vegetarian Diet Can Prevent, Even Reverse Symptoms of Diabetes

- From PCRM

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Regarding Argument

Vegetarian Diets Can Help Prevent—and Even Reverse—Heart Disease

- From PCRM

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Regarding Argument

Vegetarians Have Healthier Bones

- From PCRM

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VEG DIET ALLEVIATES FIBROMYALGIA SYMPTOMS

Vegan diet alleviates ®bromyalgia symptoms
K. Kaartinen1, K. Lammi1, M. Hypen2, M. Nenonen3, O. HaÈnninen1, and A.-L. Rauma1
1Department of Physiology, University of Kuopio, 2Rehabilitation Centre for Rheumatic Patients, Kangasala, 3National Research and
Development, Centre for Welfare and Health, Helsinki, Finland
The effect of a strict, low-salt, uncooked vegan diet rich in lactobacteria on symptoms in 18 ®bromyalgia patients during and after a 3-
month intervention period in an open, non-randomized controlled study was evaluated. As control 15 patients continued their omnivorous
diet. The groups did not differ signi®cantly from each other in the beginning of the study in any other parameters except in pain and urine
sodium. The results revealed signi®cant improvements in Visual analogue scale of pain (VAS) (p~0.005), joint stiffness (p~0.001), quality
of sleep (p~0.0001), Health assessment questionnaire (HAQ) (p~0.031), General health questionnaire (GHQ) (p~0.021), and a
rheumatologist's own questionnaire (p~0.038). The majority of patients were overweight to some extent at the beginning of the study and
shifting to a vegan food caused a signi®cant reduction in body mass index (BMI) (p~0,0001). Total serum cholesterol showed a statistically
signi®cant lowering (p~0.003). Urine sodium dropped to 1/3 of the beginning values (p~0.0001) indicating good diet compliance. It can be
concluded that vegan diet had bene®cial effects on ®bromyalgia symptoms at least in the short run.

- healthiswealth October 8, 2008 10:59AM

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VITAMIN B12 DEFICIENCY GREATER IN MEAT-EATERS:

Vitamin B12 Deficiency—the Meat-eaters’ Last Stand
By Dr. John McDougall, M.D., drmcdougall@drmcdougall.com
Since the usual dietary source of vitamin B12 for omnivores is the flesh of other animals, the obvious conclusion is that those who choose to avoid eating meat are destined to become B12 deficient. There is a grain of truth in this concern, but in reality an otherwise healthy strict vegetarian’s risk of developing a disease from B12 deficiency by following a sensible diet is extremely rare—less than one chance in a million.
I knew forty years ago that vitamin B12 would become the last bastion for meat- and dairy-lovers (and the industries that profit from them), because this is the only criticism with any merit that could be lodged against the McDougall Diet. In order to avoid that condemnation and the small risk of harming anyone, I have recommended and printed in the beginning of my books and DVDs the following advice:
If you follow the McDougall Diet for more than 3 years, or if you are pregnant or nursing, then take a minimum of 5 micrograms of supplemental vitamin B12 each day.
Avoid B12 Deficiency; Get Heart Disease and Cancer
You could choose to eat lots of B12-rich animal foods and avoid the one-in-a-million chance of developing a reversible anemia and/or even less common, damage to your nervous system. However, this decision puts you at a one-in-two chance of dying prematurely from a heart attack or stroke; a one-in-seven chance of breast cancer or a one-in-six chance of prostate cancer. The same thinking results in obesity, diabetes, osteoporosis, constipation, indigestion, and arthritis. All these conditions caused by a B12-sufficient diet are found in the people you live and work with daily. How many vegans have you met with B12 deficiency anemia or nervous system damage? I bet not one! Furthermore, you have never even heard of such a problem unless you have read the attention-seeking headlines of newspapers or medical journals.
Sensationalism Surrounds B12-Deficient Vegetarians
Rare cases of B-12 deficiency suspected to be caused by following a vegetarian diet make media-selling banners, because “people love to hear good news about their bad habits.” However, in depth research reveals that many of these “vegetarians” also suffer from generalized malnutrition—not just isolated B12 deficiency from a diet based on plant foods. For example, the March 23, 2000 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine published a letter (not a scientific article) with the provocative title, “Blindness in a Strict Vegan.”1 The letter described a 33-year old man who was found to have severe loss of vision (bilateral optic neuropathy). He had started a strict vegetarian diet at age 20. Tests showed he suffered from deficiencies of vitamins A, C, D, E, B1, B12 and folic acid, as well as zinc and selenium. All combined, these deficiencies clearly indicate severe malnutrition. B12 injections corrected his anemia, but not his visual loss.
Do you see the disconnection between the case history and the headlines? Starches, vegetables, and fruits are very rich sources of folic acid and vitamin C (as well as A, E, B1, zinc and selenium). His malnourished condition most likely was caused by an intestinal disease and/or an unhealthy “vegetarian” diet.2 The headlines published worldwide that followed this letter reassured meat- and dairy-lovers that becoming a vegetarian was an unwise decision. Examination of many reported cases of B12 deficiency connected to a vegetarian diet in both children and adults reveals their health problems are not simply due to avoiding animal foods.

- healthiswealth October 8, 2008 11:24AM

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Got Milk?

I've fallen down plenty of stairs and I've never broken a bone. Likewise, I've fallen off platforms, off skateboards, off sleds, etc. and I've never broken a bone.

I've had at least 2 glasses of milk a day since I was a child. It does a body good!

- SocialistBetty December 24, 2008 12:33PM

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Regarding Argument

Longevity: Strong Evidence Supporting Plant-Based Diet Healthiness

- From International Vegetarian Union

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Quantity AND Quality

I think many vegetarians and vegans also have a higher quality of life than meat-eaters. Being less bogged down by the health and ethical implications of meat-eating can lower your quality of life.

Go vegan for a better life :)

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 10:58AM

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- edit - remove "less" in second paragraph
  
  typo, sorry
  
  - ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 10:59AM
  
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- Unethical....maybe....but not good for you?
  
  I agree on the ethical aspect...but in regards to healthier? Biology and evolution would disagree. Eating a lean piece of chicken is good for you. This is known.
  
  - philgbear October 8, 2008 11:28AM
  
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  - the china study
    
    convincing studies have suggested otherwise. Check out the china study for one example.
    
    http://www.thechinastudy.com/about.html
    
    Another thing to keep in mind is that studies usually are comparing a lean piece of chicken to some other diet, and that other diet is important. If it's compared to a diet of processed food (soda, doritos, McDonalds, etc) then it is better, but that does not mean that it is the healthiest or that it does not have negative effects.
    
    - reckoner October 8, 2008 8:27PM
    
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Regarding Argument

Only Proven Way To Reverse Heart Disease

- From International Vegetarian Union

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The Only Way?

That is completely false. There are many causes of heart disease. Increasing intake of Omega-3 fish oils is heart healthy. It is impossible to get the necessary amounts of DHA and EPA from plant sources.

- coachE September 2, 2009 10:24AM

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Regarding Argument

Dairy May Not Really Be "Good" for Bones

- From International Vegetarian Union

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Dairy is Sacry

Read The China Study to see the correlation between dairy and cancer:
http://www.thechinastudy.com/about.html

Furthermore, the production of dairy is an incredibly cruel industry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhlhSQ5z4V4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUJmytzUVUc

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 11:04AM

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- dairy doesn't have to be scary!
  
  Yes, it is evident that conventional dairy production practices are cruel. Many cows receive little space to roam and may even suffer abuse. Also, the majority of conventional farmers feed their animals (not only dairy cows) crap like wheat, soy, etc. instead of grass, the food best suitable for many ruminants' digestive systems. The animals' health deteriorates as a result.
  
  Even worse, antibiotics and hormones may be given to the animals. The meat, fat, milk, etc. of the animals may then become contaminated due to these harmful chemicals.
  
  In addition, most of the milk you find in markets has undergone some form of pasteurization and also homogenization. Although pasteurization may kill bad bacteria and other nasties, it may remove some of the nutrients (UHT especially).However, there would be no need for pasteurization if all cows were raised organically and fed grass. Healthier cows translates to better milk.
  
  Homogenization is another harmful process. It prevents milk from separating into cream on top. Yet studies show it may also reduce nutritional value, just like pasteurization.
  
  Therefore, I would say that the china study probably has some validity judging from the widespread use of conventional dairy practices
  
  However, how about organic milk from cows that are fed grass? Unhomogenized, preferably raw or least low-temperature pasteurized milk? (and of course full-fat...)
  
  Healthier! More Humane! and much Tastier IMO!
  Just look at traditional peoples who consumed raw, organic milk. They tended to be healthy and did NOT suffer from raw-milk-food poisoning (check out www.westonaprice.org /)
  
  Well, that's all for now. I could go on but my fingers ache. Here's some stuff:
  Real Milk
  Milk, Does It Do A Body Good?
  -----------
  And remember, the fat in milk isn't harmful! Rising consumption of polyunsaturated fats and trans fats are some of the culprits (starchy carbs too ;), but let's not go off-topic) behind rising rates of degenrative diseases like cancer. On the other hand, the body needs saturated fats and monounsaturated fats to function properly. Check out this:
  Dear Mark: Saturated Fat
  
  - jizu October 27, 2008 5:55AM
  
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  - cows' milk is for baby calves
    
    were you weaned from your mother's breast? most humans were and most calves are also weaned at an early age. humans are odd creatures who 1) continue to 'nurse' all their lives and 2) drink the milk of another species.
    
    go on a dairy-only diet for a few weeks. you will soon see and feel the effects dairy has on the body. do your research. your body is a laboratory. experiment, but don't abuse it. it's a precious gift.
    
    - Patricia Robinett October 27, 2008 9:40AM
    
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    - true, cow's milk is for baby calves but...!
      
      Negative effects of dairy-only diet? If one consumes tons of processed, unpastured dairy products, of course his/her health will be negatively impacted. As stated before, many dairy cows receive the wrong nutrition and may be treated with harmful chemicals.
      
      And who goes on a dairy-only diet anyways? It's common sense that too much anything can be harmful, not just dairy. If I ate only ate grains for breakfast, lunch, and dinner everyday, I would lose muscle mass and possibly develop scurvy and other diseases caused by nutrient-deficiencies ( actually, I try to avoid grains/starchy crabs as much as possible since I follow some aspects of the paleo diet).
      
      This explains why people need balanced diets.
      
      Furthermore, one should always go for organic, unprocessed milk. Lactose-intolerant individuals find raw milk easier to digest because it contains lactase, an enzyme removed during conventional milk processing.
      
      Although humans do not need dairy as a part of their diet, it can be quite healthy when consumed in its natural, unpasteurized form (from pastured cows of course) and in certain amounts depending on the individual's health requirements/limitations.
      
      At the very least, treat it as fine wine, an occasional indulgence,
      
      - jizu October 27, 2008 8:58PM
      
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Regarding Argument

Myth: Vitamin B12 Can Be Obtained From Plant Sources

- From Weston A Price Foundation

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"Vitamins" are not a dirty word. Take a B12 supplement. It's OK.

Regarding B12:
http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm
http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/vegansources

Even the US government says,
"Fortified breakfast cereals are a particularly valuable source of vitamin B12 for vegetarians."
source: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitaminB12.asp

(I take a vegan multi-vitamin that includes B12. It's no big deal. And it's really no different than how most Americans rely on fortified dairy for vitamin D.)

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 9:59AM

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- Yes, but...
  
  If you are trying to justify that your diet is natural for human beings and that eating meat is unnatural, the fact that you need artificial supplements to remain healthy detracts from that argument.
  
  - richardsonkr January 24, 2009 11:58PM
  
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  - three things
    
    a) My claim is that plant-based diets including vegetarianism and veganism are healthy.
    
    b) If you're curious about B12 and plant sources or current lack thereof, you might be interested in topsoil erosion and the roll it plays. Google it.
    
    c) Vegetarians who eat some animal products like eggs or dairy don't have to worry about B12 at all.
    
    - ElaineVigneault January 25, 2009 12:50AM
    
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    - You aren't alone.
      
      You are not the only vegetarian/vegan arguing for its supposed benefits. While you may not possess the delusion that man evolved as an herbivore, there are those on this site who do. The B12 claim is against that argument, not yours. In the current era, being a healthy vegan/vegetarian is possible, though not recommended by most nutritionists, due to the high level of planning and supplements required, though it is not a sustainable lifestyle for the entirety of the human species.
      
      - richardsonkr January 25, 2009 8:04AM
      
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      - Evolve: go vegan
        
        It does not matter how we evolved because evolution is still in play. We can choose to evolve NOW in a way that will benefit our species, other species, and the planet or we can keep eating animals, get sick, die, and destroy the Earth.
        
        We evolved with this big brains capable of rational ethical thought. We should use our big brains to make good decisions about our health, the health of our planet, and the health of other species.
        
        We should evolve away from dangerous animal agriculture that puts human health and worker safety at risk for profit, we should evolve away from factory farming that treats animals as commodities, we should evolve away from unnecessary violence towards other humans and other species, we should evolve towards a healthy plant-based diet, we should evolve to vegan.
        
        - ElaineVigneault January 25, 2009 10:53AM
        
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        Do you know what evolution is?
        
        Evolution, by definition, requires natural selection. Since modern medicine allows the vast majority of people to reach breeding age and reproduce, natural selection has stopped, thereby ending evolution . If anything, we are sliding backwards. You cannot choose to evolve. It doesn't work that way. As far as getting sick and dying goes, that's a part of life. You will not get around it, whether you are vegetarian, vegan, on the Atkins diet, or any other crazy way of eating. Everybody gets sick and dies eventually.
        
        - richardsonkr January 25, 2009 3:10PM
        
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        Meat-Eating Is Maladaptive
        
        When I say "choose" I mean that we can modify our behaviors. I don't mean it in a free will kind of way. I simply mean that some segment of the human population will modify their behaviors in a way that will prolong their lives and likely have long-term changes in the future of our species.
        
        We're already seeing some of this play out:
        http://www.vegansoapbox.com/meat-eating-is-maladaptive /
        
        - ElaineVigneault January 25, 2009 5:51PM
        
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        More comments in this thread
        
        Well stated.
        
        I completely agree that making the decision to move towards a vegatarian diet is an evolutionary stride.
        
        Human beings, unlike many of our fellow creatures in the animal kingdom, can make a decision on where we obtain our food . Sharks, birds , and lions can't farm, buy groceries, or barter for food. They must be opportunistic feeders, and they don't always have the luxury of choosing where, when, or how they will feed. Environment and hunting ability will play the greatest role.
        
        To me, this is one key differentiator between humans and animals . We can use our ingenuity, our creativity, and knowledge to sustain ourselves without killing other animals. To me, that is the next part of our evolution .
        
        Evolution isn't accidental. Decisions absolutely factor into the evolutionary process. Language is one example. Written and spoken language were evolutionary developments that took some active social development to grow and develop.
        
        I love the taste of burgers, but I am making the hard decision to do what is right. Note that doing the right thing usually is harder than the alternative.
        
        - Eric123 August 7, 2009 1:19AM
        
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B12 supplementation is a small price to pay

Taking a tiny sublingual B12 tablet every morning is a small price to pay to save the planet and put an end to the torture, misery and terrible deaths that 112,000 animals go through every minute of every day.

- karenelated October 8, 2008 11:30AM

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Oh yea?

It is almost too easy to blow holes in this B12 theory and I'll be happy to do just that.
My wife and I have been vegan for 16 years and our levels of B12 are always just fine when we go to the doctor. This also goes for our vitamin D levels. As a matter of fact, I personally have not been sick one time since being vegan, I have increased my muscle mass, and my doctor always asks why I even bother to come see her since I am in such great shape.
My wife and I take no D supplement (just get plenty of sunshine) and our source of B12 comes from nutritional yeast and is not derived from dead animals.
Shame on you, Weston A Price foundation, for preying on the ignorance of the carnivorous populations that are willing to read or listen to your BS.
By the way, B12 deficiencies are more common in omnis than vegans.

- HumanAnimal October 8, 2008 11:42AM

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Myth: Animals are a good source of B12

Animals and plants cannot synthesize vitamin B12. That includes farm animals. All B12 found in animals and their secretions are derived from bacterial sources. Let's eliminate the mistreated and inefficient middle man and harvest B12 directly from a culture of the appropriate bacteria. We aren't living "a few decades ago;" it's okay to take a supplement or eat fortified foods.

- Antimatter October 13, 2008 11:49AM

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Vegan or Vegetarian?

The question is "Are Vegetarians Healthier?" not "Are Vegans Healthier?" Perhaps eating meat impairs one's ability to read long words.

- MrPogle January 16, 2009 7:22PM

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Regarding Argument

Myth: Our Needs for Vitamin D Can Be Met By Sunlight

- From Weston A Price Foundation

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Do your research

Plenty of vegan foods are fortified with vitamin D. You can buy fortified soy milk, orange juice, breakfast cereals... Or take a multi-vitamin. And/or spend time outdoors in the sunlight.

More resources:
http://www.vegansociety.com/food/nutrition/vitaminD.php
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/bones

I've been vegan over two years and vegetarian 26 years prior and I've NEVER had a nutrient deficiency. Eat a wide variety of foods, learn about nutrition, and use common sense.

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 10:07AM

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Why are you limiting the vitamin D source to sunlight?

The whole point is moot in regards to the main discussion of is a vegetarian diet healthier? Eating a diet of vegetables will provide plenty of vitamin D for you body which you acknowledge albeit saying they are possibly not utilized as well. So why are you listing a sunlight myth as evidence in proving a vegetarian diet is not optimal? I'm not sure it's even a well accepted myth, rather seems to just be one more bit of ammo Weston A Price misuses.

The latest and seemingly most comprehensive study comparing D2 and D3 concludes that in fact vitamin D2 is just as effective. Below I quote Dr Michael Holick who explains the latest study to date.

" To determine whether vitamin D2 was as effective as vitamin D3 in maintaining circulating blood levels of 25-hydroxyvitamin D, a study was conducted whereby healthy adults received either 1,000 IU of vitamin D2 or 1,000 IU of vitamin D3 in a capsule once a day in the winter for 11 weeks. In addition, one group received a placebo capsule and one group received a capsule that contained 500 IU of vitamin D2 and 500 IU of vitamin D3 daily for 11 weeks. Blood levels of both 25-hydroxyvitamin D2 and 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 were determined by state of the art method using liquid chromatography tandem mass spectroscopy. Holick et al, (Vitamin D2 is as effective as vitamin D3 in maintaining circulating concentrations of 25-hydroxyvitamin D, J Clin Endocrinol Metab 93:677-681, 2008;) reported that the blood levels of 25-hydroxvitamin D rose to the same degree in the healthy adults who took either 1,000 IU of vitamin D2 a day or 1,000 IU of vitamin D3 a day for 11 weeks. The group that received vitamin D2 also had their blood level of 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 measured. There was no significant drop in the blood level of 25-hydroxyvitamin D3. To determine whether the mixture of vitamin D2 with vitamin D3 would alter the blood levels of 25-hydroxyvitamin D, the adults who received 500 units of vitamin D2 with 500 units of vitamin D3 also raised their total blood levels of 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 in an almost an identical manner as the adults who received 1,000 IU of vitamin D2 or 1,000 IU of vitamin D3 a day for 11 weeks. The authors concluded that ingesting 1,000 IU of vitamin D2 or 1,000 IU of vitamin D3 a day during the winter (at a time when sun exposure had no influence on blood levels of 25-hydroxyvitamin D) that both vitamin D2 and vitamin D3 were equally effective in maintaining the blood levels of 25-hydroxyvitamin D. Furthermore, vitamin D2 did not have a negative influence on serum levels of 25-hydroxyvitamin D3. Adults who took 500 units of vitamin D2 with 500 units of vitamin D3 had similar increases in their blood levels of 25-hydroxyvitamin D suggesting that vitamin D2 taken with vitamin D3 does not have any negative influence on the metabolism of vitamin D3.

The authors reviewed in their Conclusion several studies that had previously reported that vitamin D2 was as biologically effective as vitamin D3 in both pregnant women and in healthy adults. This study confirms these observations and adds to the body of scientific literature demonstrating that at least when healthy adults take 1,000 IU of vitamin D2, they can be assured that it is as effective as taking 1,000 IU of vitamin D3 "

- Mythos March 26, 2009 9:45AM

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Regarding Argument

Myth: Our Vitamin A Needs Can Be Entirely Obtained From Plant Foods

- From Weston A Price Foundation

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About vegan health...

A wide variety of information about vegan health is available online here:
http://www.veganhealth.org /

By the way, even if the Price Foundation's claim was correct (which it's not), that doesn't say anything about meat reduction or vegetarianism. Please eat less meat. Your body, your conscience, the animals, other humans, and the planet will thank you.

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 10:11AM

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This is probably true

I have to agree with the Price Foundation view on this one. It ONLY applies to vegans, NOT vegetarians , difference being the added dairy products(milk, butter, cream) in the latter.

I have been a vegetarian for life, never tasted meat and so have several millions of others like me in India. And most of us are normal people without any vitamin/mineral deficiency. We have been vegetarian for several generations, so long that no one ever recalls a time when meat was ever eaten. I dont deny that we all evolved from meat eating hunters several million years ago, but we (at least in India) have EVOLVED to a point where there is an understanding about ethical, moral obligations to mother earth to have given it up. We are not vegans, but we dont kill cows. They are treated with respect. This respect comes out of an understanding that a man only drinks two kinds of milk in his lifetime, mothers milk (as an infant) and then cows milk (for essential nutrients/vitamins when not an infant). In that sense, we consider the cow also as a mother, hence it is respected and revered for providing us its dairy products.

- ydkhatri February 9, 2009 2:38PM

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This hardley prooves this is a myth

So what if carotene to vitamin A converts 6 units to 1 and does so in the gut? This doesn't mean that obtaining vitamin A from a plant source is inferior never mind not "entirely obtained from". In fact it turns out this is a good thing, with the gut conversion acting as a safety for overdosing.

The UK GOV website (eatwell.gov.uk) website says that:

"If you do eat liver or liver products every week, you should avoid taking any supplements that contain vitamin A or fish liver oils (which are also high in vitamin A).

Older people should avoid eating liver or liver products more than once a week, or you could eat smaller portions. If you do eat liver products every week, you should also avoid taking any supplements that contain vitamin A or fish liver oils. This is because having too much vitamin A (more than 1.5mg of vitamin A per day from food or supplements), might increase the risk of bone fracture. [If you're pregnant ... ] you should also avoid eating liver and liver products, which includes pâté, because these foods are very high in vitamin A. Having too much vitamin A might harm your unborn baby . For the same reason, you also need to avoid taking supplements containing vitamin A or fish liver oils. Ask your GP or midwife if you want more information."

So it may turn out that you can't overdose on vitamin A plant foods because if you eat a bunch of sweet potatoes all at once your body is not going to be able to convert all that in vitamin A as your gut would be overloaded with material -- where as liver on the other hand is already in vitamin A form and too much could lead to serious health issues.

As for the other argument, just because a small percent of people have a diminished ability of converting carotene -- doesn't prove it a myth. I could cite people who have allergies to meat but I venture to guess you wouldn't find it accurate for me to say that this proves it's a myth that meat is required for optimum health.

In you're argument you say that a sweet potato (containing about 25,000 units of beta-carotene) will only convert into about 4,000 units of vitamin A. "Units" of beta-carotene are ALREADY corrected for the human body's imperfect conversion of this substance to retinol. One International Unit of "vitamin A activity" is set equal to 0.6 micrograms beta-carotene, or 0.3 micrograms of retinol. The reason for this is that the 2:1 ratio is what is required in human feeding trials to raise serum retinol levels by a given amount. The average person who eats 25,000 I.U. of beta carotene gets 25,000 I.U. of vitamin A.

While beta carotene absorption and conversion is less in people with thyroid problems and bile duct obstruction, these illnesses do NOT as a rule result in vitamin A deficiency. Whether they do in vegetarians is not, so far as I can tell, known. Until somebody reports it, it remains a nice
theory. I have been able to find NO studies reporting vitamin A shortages in vegans. Where are they?

Vitamin A is found in animal livers and lactations. All other animal products have essentially zero except except cod fish, salmon and oysters. Not every culture drinks animal milk, not every culture has cod or salmon in their diet and quite frankly I know very few people or cultures who can afford to eat liver regularly -- after all there's only one per animal body. Even if was the case that all meat had vitamin A, the whole "human's evolved eating meat" argument in no way proves a vegetarian diet is not healthier. There's a lot of people who lack the enzyme to digest dairy. People with gut problems like those with Chrones Disease avoid dairy due to the lactose. If I was to argue the way the Weston A Price Foundation does, I'd say this means that we're probably not supposed to get most of our Vitamin A from animals .

- Mythos March 26, 2009 8:37AM

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- New journal article suggests vitamin A from plant foods is best
  
  In my post from March 26th I put forth a theory that,
  "it may turn out that you can't overdose on vitamin A plant foods because if you eat a bunch of sweet potatoes all at once your body is not going to be able to convert all that in vitamin A as your gut would be overloaded with material -- where as liver on the other hand is already high in vitamin A form [retinol] and too much could lead to serious health issues. "
  
  And today there's an article in the Seattle Examiner that examines a recent journal article that support this theory:
  
  "An article in this month’s Clinical Nutrition Insight suggests that Americans may be getting too much vitamin A in their diets—and that it is best to get this nutrient from plant sources.
  
  Preformed vitamin A, which is called retinol, is found only in animal foods. However, plant foods contain carotenoids which are converted in the body to vitamin A. The best known and most abundant vitamin A precursor is beta-carotene.
  
  While preformed vitamin A from animal foods is toxic at high intakes, carotenoids are not. And too much preformed vitamin A—even at levels that aren’t toxic—has been linked to risk for bone fracture in some studies. High vitamin A intake might be especially harmful for people who have low intakes of vitamin D and for those who use retinol-rich supplemental products like cod liver oil .
  
  In a recent editorial on the subject, Dr John Cannell noted that “The body uses these carotenoid substrates to make exactly the right amount of retinol. It is a closed, tightly regulated system, one designed to perfection by Nature.” He suggested that consuming animal-derived vitamin A bypasses the controls of this delicate balance. "
  
  The rest of the article can be found at:
  
  http://www.examiner.com/x-5670-Seattle-Vegan-Examiner ~y2009m5d1-Vegan-diets-are-best-
  
  - Mythos May 3, 2009 1:31AM
  
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Regarding Argument

Myth: Meat Causes Osteoporosis, Kidney Disease, Heart Disease, Cancer

- From Weston A Price Foundation

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Study up and make your own informed decisions

Anyone truly interested in this topic should read The China Study.
http://www.thechinastudy.com /
Specifically, read this part:
http://www.thechinastudy.com/PDFs/ChinaStudy_Excerpt.pdf

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 10:13AM

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Regarding Argument

Myth: Low Fat, Low Cholesterol Diets Are Healthier For People

- From Weston A Price Foundation

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So you're going to tell me

That I was healthier on Atkins when my plasma cholesterol levels were 258?!? Of course, I was doing it for weight loss, and whereas it did work, not only did I see a spike in my plasma cholesterol, but also my blood pressure. My blood pressure was an outrageous 160/100 at rest (compared to the about 130/85 it was before...part of the reason I chose to lose weight).

So where am I now? Vegetarian for almost a year, cholesterol around 120 (about half of that is HDL), and a blood pressure of 110/75. And you're going to tell me that's unhealthy. Nice one!

A good way to increase your HDL (good cholesterol) is to drink a unit or two of alcohol everyday. You don't need meat to do this. Find some alcoholic beverage you enjoy and add that to your vegetarian diet for a great HDL level.

- bagpiper2005 October 8, 2008 10:07AM

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If you want fat, at least enjoy it. Don't feel guilty about it.

The reality is, a low fat diet is a good idea. And I mean naturally low fat, not meat and dairy with the fat removed, that's not naturally low fat. A vegan diet is often naturally low fat.

But if you want fat, have some. Want saturated fat? Have it the tasty, ethical way: coconut oil.
Try some coconut chocolate cookies:
http://www.vegansoapbox.com/vegan-mofo-chocolate-coconut-cookies /

Ingredients:
* 1 1/2 cups rolled oats
* 1 3/4 cup white whole wheat flour (or whole wheat pastry flour)
* 1/4 tsp. sea salt
* 1 1/2 tsp. baking powder
* 1 cup shredded coconut
* 1 cup vegan chocolate chips
* 1/2 cup agave nectar
* 1/2 cup maple syrup
* 1/2 cup extra virgin coconut oil
* 1/2 tsp vanilla extract
* 1/2 tsp chocolate extract

Directions:
* Preheat oven to 350F.
* Mix all ingredients together.
* Drop spoonfuls onto lightly oiled baking sheet.
* Bake for about 15 minutes.
* Cool on a wire rack.

The above recipe was adapted by my husband, whose cholesterol levels a few years ago were so high that his doctor wanted to put him on cholesterol drugs. He decided to "try" vegetarianism first. His cholesterol dropped to a healthy level and now he's happy as a vegan!

(PS - Exercise is related to cholesterol, too. Regular exercise can increase your "good" cholesterol.)

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 10:22AM

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- Your Husband and I were in similar situations it sounds like...
  
  Good for your husband for trying the natural remedy first. Glad to hear he's doing well. I should have mentioned I exercise vigorously for an hour a day, but I failed to mention that.
  
  Do either of you add a little bit of alcohol to your diets, I'm just curious, because that's really helped me get that boost in my HDL levels (exercise didn't do much for it, though I still recommend regular exercise).
  
  - bagpiper2005 October 8, 2008 10:44AM
  
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  - re. alcohol
    
    Yes, he's quite the beer connoisseur. We use http://www.barnivore.com / to make sure the alcohol we drink is vegan :)
    Though... I think abstaining from alcohol is a good and reasonable choice, too.
    
    - ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 11:20AM
    
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    - vegan alcohol
      
      vegan alcohol ?? are you serious ??
      
      - mattsson November 6, 2009 2:57PM
      
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Role of physical activity

In Framingham, Mass., the more saturated fat one ate, the more cholesterol one ate, the more calories one ate, the lower the person's serum cholesterol ... we found that the people who ate the most cholesterol, ate the most saturated fat, [and] ate the most calories, weighed the least and were the most physically active.

The role of physical activity is probably a powerful influence on health . Any studies that don't take that into account may be compromised.

- Golfer May 25, 2009 2:04PM

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Regarding Argument

Myth: Vegetarians Live Longer and Have More Energy and Endurance

- From Weston A Price Foundation

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Thrive!

Regarding endurance: Check out the Thrive Diet.
http://www.thrivediet.com /

From the book description:
"The Thrive Diet is a long-term eating plan that will help you develop a lean body, sharp mind, and everlasting energy, whether you’re a professional athlete or simply looking to boost your physical and mental health. One of the few professional athletes on an entirely plant-based diet, Brendan Brazier researched and developed this easy-to-follow program to enhance his performance as an elite endurance athlete. Brazier clearly describes why it’s easier for the body to utilize nutrient-rich foods in their natural state than refined, processed foods and how to choose nutritionally efficient, stress-busting whole foods to maximize energy and health. And because plant-based foods are more environmentally friendly to produce, you’ll also help the planet while improving your personal health. "

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 10:55AM

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I Know From Experience

I know that vegetarians are healthier. I was a vegan for a year and not once that year did I get sick. I was at an attractive, healthy weight and never before in my life did I have more energy .

- ieatcomputers June 12, 2009 5:41PM

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Regarding Argument

Myth: Humans Evolved as Vegetarians

- From Weston A Price Foundation

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We evolved to a point where we can choose. We're not ruled by instint.

Our ancestors also did many things we would no longer do: slavery, incest, forced marriage... Just because we did something in the past doesn't mean we should continue to do it.

We are still evolving. It doesn't stop. And now, given
a) the current climate change crisis
b) the health risks to humans posed by intensive animal agriculture
c) the inherent cruelty involved in intensive animal agriculture
d) our higher, more developed morality
e) our ability to choose veganism and remain healthy
all add up to one conclusion:

Go vegan!

Need help? Here are some resources for new vegans:
http://www.goveg.com /
http://www.tryveg.com /

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 10:52AM

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Regarding Argument

Myth: Meat, Sat. Fat Have Increased w/ Heart Disease, Cancer

- From Weston A Price Foundation

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Don't ignore abundance of evidence linking meat/dairy and cancer

Caveats: 1. I'm vegan primarily for ethical reasons - compassion and respect for animals, a desire to refrain from exploitating others as much possibile - not health reasons. That I can be healthy and vegan is a nice benefit. 2. I don't think you have to be vegan to be healthy. My dad is a meat-eating marathon runner (although he does limit his meat intake).

An extraordinary number of well-designed epidemiological and clinical studies, from around the world, from all demographics, published in mainstream peer-reviwed medical journals over the past several decades show linkages between meat consumption and cancer. It really doesn't make sense, from a health perspective, to ignore this.

The China Study ( http://www.amazon.com/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/dp/1932100660/ref =pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223482542&sr=8-1), to take one example, was an extremely thorough study on a homogeneous population. It showed clear correlations between animal protein intake and cancer rates.

When you compare populations, the overwhelming pattern is higher animal protein intake = higher cancer rates. For your own good, you don't want to dismiss these findings. Breast cancer rates among people who get all or nearly all of their protein from plant sources are a fraction of the breast cancer rates in the U.S. and England, where meat and dairy are prevalent. We're always talking about a cure for breast cancer - which is fine - but through diet and exercise you may be able to reduce your risk by three-quarters.

And yes, genetics have been ruled out. The BRCA genes seem to be much less of a determinant for breast cancer than lifestyle factors are.

This doesn't mean that if you eat one hot dog, you die. But certainly overconsumption of meat does seem to have many risks. We ignored the risks of cigarettes for years, because we didn't want to give up our habit. Let's not do the same with meat and dairy.

Some meats are particularly harmful. A recent peer-reviewed study showed that even one ounce of processed meat (e.g., bacon, sausage, ham) per day can significantly raise the risk of pancreatic cancer. One ounce is approximately on sausage or slice of ham. Try veggie bacon, sausage, and ham. They're not health foods by a long shot, but they're far less risky (and less cruel) than the animal-based alternatives, and they're not bad. I've fed them to many a meat-eater with no complaints.

- garyl October 8, 2008 9:29AM

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Regarding Argument

Myth: Soy Products are Adequate Substitutes For Meat & Dairy Products

- From Weston A Price Foundation

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Don't just replace, reduce

The fact is, most Americans consume way too much meat and dairy (and eggs and other animal products). If people simply replaced their meat with soy, they'd probably consume too much soy and not enough fresh fruits and veggies.

Don't simply replace the meat in your diet with meat analogs. REDUCE your meat consumption and replace it with a variety of vegan foods: fruits, veggies, legumes... Eat a wide variety of unprocessed, vegan foods.

Check out the vegan food pyramid for a visual aid :)
http://www.chooseveg.com/vegan-food-pyramid.asp

More info:
http://www.veganmd.org /
http://www.veganhealth.org /

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 10:27AM

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Myth: The Human Body is Not Designed for Meat Consumption

- From Weston A Price Foundation

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The human brain can choose a healthier option

Just because we can eat meat doesn't mean we should.

Veganism is healthier for our bodies, for our conscience, for other people, for animals, and for the planet. Go vegan!

Why vegan?
http://www.veganoutreach.org/whyvegan /
http://www.vegan.org/about_veganism/index.html
http://veganic.net/whyvegan.htm

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 10:30AM

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teeth, intestines and much much more...

examine a carnivore's teeth... they are like razor blades... arranged in a narrow snout. carnivores are designed to rip and tear and shred and bolt animal flesh... and yet they still love apples and eat they grass when they are ill.

examine the teeth of an herbivore... they are like human teeth. humans chew and pre-digest carbohydrates (fruits & vegetables & greens) in the mouth. when nature provides a bug or slug in the apple or leaf, no problem... but human teeth are obviously not designed to kill and digest the bodies of animals.

measure the amount of acid in the stomaches of carnivores vs herbivores... carnivores have 10x the acid in their stomaches that humans have in theirs. why? to make quick work of digesting animal flesh.

measure the length of intestines for carnivores and for herbivores... herbivores have complex digestive systems to absorb all the nutrients from their food. carnivores, on the other hand, have short digestive tracts -- to get the meat IN and OUT of their bodies as quickly as possible... why? because holding putrefying flesh in their bodies is very detrimental to their health.

imagine what happens in a human body when it takes days to eliminate animal flesh. apples and grapes do not smell all that bad as they ferment, but the odor of putrefying flesh is very offensive and it pours through the pores of our skin. no wonder the sales of medicines and de-ODOR-ants are so brisk in the USA...

if you need to use deodorants, you might want to rethink your diet.

- Patricia Robinett October 8, 2008 11:13AM

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- hmm...
  
  Logically, your points make sense.
  Yet according to vrg.org , "The short canines in humans are a functional consequence of the enlarged cranium and associated reduction of the size of the jaws...... Interestingly, the primates with the largest canines (gorillas and gelada baboons) both have basically vegetarian diets."
  
  Also, the majority of plant-eating animals fermenting sacs (part of their digestive system). Humans have no such thing.
  
  As for intestines, "Intestinal absorption is a surface area, not linear problem. Dogs (which are carnivores) have intestinal specializations more characteristic of omnivores than carnivores such as cats. The relative number of crypts and cell types is a better indication of diet than simple length. We are intermediate between the two groups." (also from vrg.com)
  
  Humans are supposed to be omnivores. Our bodies say so too. People shouldn't go vegan because of anatomy....
  
  - jizu October 27, 2008 6:14AM
  
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  - hmm???
    
    snouts:
    humans do not have narrow jaws/snouts with razor-sharp teeth like meat-eaters. they have wide jaws with a rack of fairly tame teeth. try hunting down an animal and killing and shredding its flesh with your nails and teeth. report back to me. i look forward to hearing what happens. no fair using a dead animal and a knife and fork. :)
    
    'fermenting sac'???:
    which animals have a 'fermenting sac'? is there a more precise term for that? i can't find it when i search. thanks. do primates? we are primates.
    
    intestines:
    plants require slow absorption. perhaps you could call the intestines a 'fermenting sac'.
    
    you use vrg.com as your sour source. i do not agree with much of the info on it. sorry. anyone can say anything on a website. having a website does not mean you have walked the walk. your own body is your laboratory. yes, experiment - but always listen very closely to its feedback. that is called 'wisdom'.
    
    i did not become a raw vegan because my tastebuds told me to do it. i became a raw vegan because my body led me to eating simpler and simpler foods... my body didn't like meat, fish, eggs or dairy -- even tho my tastebuds wanted it to... my tastebuds would love to live on chocolate ice cream, steak tartare and escargot with LOTS of garlic butter. LOL
    
    my body revolted. i don't like being sick or tired or ugly, so i listened.
    
    my body is much happier now. looks better, feels better, and life is simple. when i read the data, it supported my new dietary choices. read the 25-year cornell university study that was performed in china. 'the china report' i believe it's called. its conclusion: the more animal food you eat, the unhealthier you will be. simple.
    
    read victoria boutenko's 'greens for life'. she has done some very good research.
    
    chlorophyll is only one ion different chemically from hemoglobin. we don't need to eat animals... we need to eat greens.
    
    - Patricia Robinett October 27, 2008 9:34AM
    
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    - It's called a rumen.
      
      The "fermenting sac," as it was referred to, is called the rumen. Cows and other herbivores also have multiple stomachs and have to "chew the cud." If you ever start chewing cud, let me know.
      
      - richardsonkr January 25, 2009 7:33AM
      
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    - from an evolutionary standpoint
      
      "humans do not have narrow jaws/snouts with razor-sharp teeth like meat -eaters. they have wide jaws with a rack of fairly tame teeth. try hunting down an animal and killing and shredding its flesh with your nails and teeth. report back to me. i look forward to hearing what happens. no fair using a dead animal and a knife and fork. :)"
      
      Our ancestors were using tools and cooking their food long before they were H.Sapiens... as such our physiology has adapted to such things.
      
      - MrBook July 28, 2009 6:32AM
      
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- Meat does not rot in the body.
  
  That is a myth. It passes through a healthy digestie system in 1 to three days, tops. Food does not rot in the colon. The need to use deoderants stems from sweat glands that release pheremones that smell bad. Vegans stink too. Look at the teeth of other apes, such as chimpanzees. They are very similar to humans, yet have an omnivorous diet, eating plants, insects, and other mammals. The human digestive system is nowhere near that of a cow's in complexity, because we are omnivores, not carnivores, and not herbivores.
  
  - richardsonkr January 25, 2009 7:31AM
  
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  - how many vegans do YOU know?
    
    how many long-time vegans do you know? and how long have you experimented with being a raw vegan? LOL
    
    vegans -- who combine foods correctly -- will smell differently than those who still eat junk... you can still technically be a 'vegan' and eat junk and combine foods unwisely so they clash and -- like any chemicals, will smell bad. garbage in, garbage out.
    
    my food passes through in a day or less. and it doesn't smell gross... it smells simply like food that has been broken down for nutrient absorption.
    
    i don't use deodorants and my body doesn't smell bad -- except when i eat things that smell bad. raw garlic does not smell bad either on my breath or body or excreta. cooked onions, however, are really smelly when they discharge through my armpits.
    
    i suspect that as long as 'input' remains simple and raw, then it smells like HEALTHY compost. when 'input' is complex and cooked -- it can't help but smell similar to what it would smell like if it was placed in a beaker with hydrochloric acid, and kept at 100+ degrees for as many days as it takes for elimination to occur... and if the food combinations were unwise -- then -- eeyuck!
    
    we can each only tell our own story... you can tell yours, and i can tell mine. yours is limited to your experience, and mine has at least a full range of diets over many decades to compare -- everything from the SAD "standard american diet" to very simple, clean, wisely combined raw vegan diet for 5 years.
    
    when you have been a raw vegan for 5 or more years, eat plenty of greens, and don't mix foods unwisely, check back with me... let me know if you still subject your poor armpits to aluminum deodorants. :) let me know if you still have headaches, back aches, foot aches, or any other dis-ease. :)
    
    you are presently speaking from a certain amount of experience... but not the full range... obviously. in other words, opinion, not knowledge.
    
    - Patricia Robinett January 25, 2009 12:41PM
    
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    - Trust me, you stink.
      
      Having grown up in California, I have known many hippy-types who don't shave, shower often, use deoderant, or eat animal products. Most of them have claimed not to stink, but I could smell them across the room. I highly doubt that you are any different. Most people don't smell themselves, especially if they've smelled for a long time, but trust me, you do stink, it's just that no one who knows you has had the heart to tell you.
      
      - richardsonkr January 25, 2009 3:05PM
      
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      - how ugly of you
        
        how very ugly of you.
        why have you hung with people who
        don't take good care of themselves?
        i would never hang with people like that.
        why would you?
        and why would you connect that to me,
        who you do not know? how ugly of you.
        how hateful. how rude. how unkind.
        
        my nose is quite acutely tuned to odors.
        when i eat cooked food or eat unwise
        combinations that clash, i can smell it in
        my own body and elimination.
        i am quite aware.
        was not always -- used to just eat the
        SAD diet and was always ill.
        now i eat well and am never ill.
        
        i am not a hippie type and never was.
        i am a fortune 500 company and legal type.
        and i am very, extremely intelligent and wise.
        i have learned what works in many
        areas of life, including my body.
        how is YOUR health? i hope you are well.
        but i suspect you are not.
        
        when people advocate for the SAD, even
        tho there are so many millions of people
        suffering from diabetes, heart disease and
        cancer -- i have little faith in their wisdom
        or compassion. people don't have to be ill.
        but degenerative disease is rampant in the USA.
        i hope you are young enough that it has not
        hit you yet. i am 62 and have been through
        it and come out the other side, much healthier
        and much stronger than i ever was when i ate
        either SAD or cooked vegetarian food.
        
        - Patricia Robinett January 25, 2009 3:27PM
        
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        The Truth ain't Pretty
        
        While I try not to be "ugly," sometimes the truth isn't pretty. While I generally try to avoid personal attacks, and generally call out those who use them, in this case, it is not ad hominem, a logical fallacy, because you claimed to not need nor use deoderant because of your diet, while vegetarianism can contribute to, not detract from, body odor, and body odor is also caused by glands completely unrelated to diet.
        http://www.health911.com/remedies/rem_bodyo.htm
        The following quote is from the above link:
        "Because of a person's body chemistry, some people who eat LARGE QUANTITIES of meat or who ARE VEGETARIANS have a very distinctive body odor which can be quite offensive." (emphasis added)
        Also, "Sweat glands (apocrine glands) under the arms and in the groin secrete a substance that is the major non-food/drink related cause of body odor. This substance, which contains protein, carbohydrates, and lipids, often secreted by a surge in sex hormones caused by tense moments or emotional stress, is quickly attacked by bacteria, causing odor." Basically, everybody smells, though stressed people or those who eat either too much or too little meat smell worse. I apologize for attacking you, but it was necessary. The above is saying it more politely.
        
        And just to clarify, I do not "hang" with, nor have I ever "hung" with people who don't take care of themselves. I have known them, (not in that way) but have never been friendly. My health is excellent, and requires a large amount of both animal and plant protein to keep it so, if you must know, though you are correct in your assumption that I am still young, and in that I probably will have health problems when I get older, not because of meat, but because of all the other abuse I put my body through. I do apologize for calling you out so harshly. A bit of tact may have been called for.
        
        - richardsonkr January 25, 2009 10:12PM
        
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        thank you for your apology
        
        thank you for your apology. i wish you a long and healthy life. and i appreciate the article you linked to at health911.com -- excellent.
        
        i find it interesting that the author of that page says that body odor is a result of toxicity... imbalance in metabolism... and recommends a thorough detox program to cleanse the liver, kidneys and colon. i know of no better detox program than a raw food diet -- and i was a personal friend of robert gray who wrote 'the colon health handbook' and developed that cleansing program 20 or 30 years ago. 'detox' is my way of life. :)
        
        in fact, that author states it is the 'person's body chemistry' that causes the problems of body odors: breath, foot, sweaty hands, etc... he/she even spells out which foods are especially troublesome and states that there are remedies to odors -- eliminating foods that cause those odors.
        
        my diet consists nearly 100% of fruits and greens, plus carrot juice, ginger and garlic. i have some pet chickens now and they started laying eggs a month ago, so i am also now eating very fresh eggs from very healthy chickens.
        
        no body -- and nobody -- naturally 'stinks'... this is an acquired ability thanks to habits... eating, drinking, smoking, using drugs -- in an unwise fashion. if your body is clean, you will smell like what you eat. if you eat fish, you will smell like fish; if you eat brussels sprouts, you will smell like brussels sprouts; if you eat grapes and raisins, you will smell like wine; if you eat apples and greens, you will smell like apples and greens. the author of the article you refer to says that 'dietary imbalances resulting in constipation or a deficiency of magnesium or zinc may be other causes of body odor'. greens are an excellent source of magnesium. chlorophyll is used as a deodorizer.
        
        thanks for the great link to a great website. i will bookmark it and refer to it as i do my research... i love to learn new things.
        
        again -- i wish you well.
        
        - Patricia Robinett January 25, 2009 11:03PM
        
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        More comments in this thread
    - I would never have believed it...
      
      But as my southern cousins would say, I have just "met" someone who honestly in their heart believes "their sh*t don't stink".
      
      - locavore February 25, 2009 5:35PM
      
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      - poop et al...
        
        when my poop smells bad, i know why and i know how to correct.
        it usually begins to smell bad when my diet becomes acid-based:
        too many artificial sweeteners and heavy proteins.
        so when it smells bad, i know to return to eating more fresh,
        raw fruit & greens.
        if you pay close attention to your body, it will tell you what you need.
        illness doesn't 'just happen'. you never need to be ill.
        
        - Patricia Robinett August 3, 2009 5:53PM
        
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Regarding Argument

Myth: Animal Products Contain Numerous, Harmful Toxins

- From Weston A Price Foundation

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skull and bones = poison, does it not?

i found it humorous to see scott gold's moniker was a skull and bones... kinda proves the point, no? a subconscious admission of the deadly habit of eating animal flesh?

not that animals have to be toxic... but by the time they go through the modern factory farming system, they have been poisoned, so anyone who eats them is also poisoned. and even if not, their flesh is still simply flesh... it is usually scavengers who eat dead meat. true carnivores eat animals freshly killed.

take a piece of meat and a carrot... put them outside in the sun for a few days. you will not want to go near the meat... it has putrified. the carrot will be pretty much a carrot. in fact, grains and grapes are much sought after by even meat eaters when they are left to ferment. but animal flesh? forget it! it gets NASTY!

imagine what it does in your intestines.

- Patricia Robinett October 8, 2008 10:50AM

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- Study Primitive Cultures
  
  "imagine what it does to your intestines."
  
  Why imagine when you have the full capacity to test such theories first-hand?
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIrFhfyrmS4
  
  - RawRebuild July 8, 2009 12:19AM
  
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  - raw food digests best...
    
    interesting video. and you're right... raw, fermented food -- whether vegetable or animal -- will digest better than cooked food. but most people in this culture eat cooked meat devoid of enzymes or ferments that will help digest it... and i doubt that many will embrace such a diet ... i prefer to eat indoors, myself.
    
    in the meanwhile, avoiding cooked foods and embracing raw foods is a very healthy choice. eat rotten meat if you like, but i'd rather have sweet, raw, succulent raw fruits, refreshingly green greens and sensuous seeds & nuts. it's easy to make sunflower seed cheese... which provides ferments... and you can eat indoors without stinking up your house. :) here's the lowdown on the debilitating standard american diet (SAD):
    
    http://www.therealfoodchannel.com/page/18.html
    
    oh, and btw -- i hear that eskimos who eat that way don't live to be very old. ? "a primitive Eskimo over the age of 50 is a great rarity." makes sense to me. the longest lived are those who eat simple vegetarian diets (from http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-are-the-inuit-healthy.html ):
    
    1. Abkhasia: Ancients of the Caucasus
    Where people are healthier at ninety than most of us are at middle age
    
    2. Vilcabamba: The Valley of Eternal Youth
    Where heart disease and dementia do not exist
    
    3. Hunza: A People Who Dance in Their Nineties
    Where cancer , diabetes, and asthma are unknown
    
    4. The Centenarians of Okinawa
    Where more people live to 100 than anywhere else in the world
    
    - Patricia Robinett July 8, 2009 12:51PM
    
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Regarding Argument

First, Let's Talk About That Question

- From Scott Gold

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You're right - to a point

In general, currently, people who choose to go vegetarian or vegan (when they have the choice) are healthier than people who choose to eat meat.

Inspirational video:
http://www.nonviolenceunited.org/veganvideo.html

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 9:43AM

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Are vegetarians healhier

Two of my 5 granddaughters are vegetarians . They were propagandized by a teacher to adopt vegetarianism. Actually the teacher is rumored to be a male math teacher- it is well that I don't know him.

I say that because the younger of the two, who adopted the idea emulating the older one nearly died as a result of her choice.

You might view this as the life threatening period was anexoria but I strongly feel that the limitation
of choices available and lack of flavor of the meatless diet made it easier to not desire to eat.

She was hospitalized and treated. She was educated on what harm she was doing to her body from depriving it from nourishment.

She did survive and yesterday graduated college as valedectorian.

I wouldn't have bet on her living. It has pained me to hug that frail body.

Like I said it is well that I do not know the teacher that is causing this in evangelizing his bizzare "religion" of vegetarianism.

It is pathetic to see what little she eats and how many choices that are available to omnivores she bypasses.

Hal 84

- Hal 84 December 14, 2008 5:52PM

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- I'm sorry about your granddaughter, but...
  
  Excuse me, but I have been a strict vegetarian for over three years and a strict vegan for over three months. I am twelve years old and extremely healthy. Were her parents supportive of her new diet? There are so many good options of veg food out there - ever heard of Boca Burgers? - but if her parents refused to buy her vegetarian food, of course their is no way that she could be healthy. No one can live off of fruits and vegetables alone. That's not a vegetarian diet and it's not healthy for anyone.
  
  - madninjamonkey December 15, 2008 12:03PM
  
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  - I'm Sorry About Your Granddaughter but..
    
    I had trouble logging on but finally-
    
    She had very good support from her mother of her diet choice. Her mother will bring a vegetarian dish to gatherings of extended family.
    
    She has a very flimsy bone structure. If or when she gets pregnant that is not an ideal body for nurturing a new life!
    
    It is pathetic to see what she puts on her plate- I have no idea how anyone can survive on that!
    
    My own personal diet does not have a lot of meat in it. I don't find many restaurant meals to have near enough vegetables available to suit me. At home my evening meal starts with half of a family salad bowl of salad. Much of this comes from my home garden and greenhouse.
    
    What is bad about most people's diets is the nutrition poor pastas, breads and fried foods.
    
    Meats are actually concentrated. Meat animals eat carbohydrates and proteins and vitamins and concentrate these into their flesh, taking up to 8# of food intake per pound of gain.
    
    Since our digestive systems work well for both meat and vegetable intake I intend to continue to eat a reasonable amount of meat.
    
    How does a vegetarian celebrate Christmas or thanksgiving. Every thanksgiving I am thankful to not be a vegetarian!
    
    Hal 84
    
    - Hal 84 December 24, 2008 10:07AM
    
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    - Reply to Hal 84
      
      It sounds like your granddaughter was sick because she ate very little and not a wide variety of foods. If she was educated on proper nutrition, she would've been much healthier. I eat even less animal products than your granddaughter did - no meat, poultry, fish, eggs, dairy, or honey - and I have no health problems at all. That's because I don't starve myself as it seems that your granddaughter was doing and I eat many different fruits, vegetables, and grains to make sure that I get all of my vitamins and minerals.
      
      You're right. Our digestive systems work for both meat and vegetables. That means we can either be omnivores or vegetarians and we can use our morals to decide what we eat. Should we kill something that can feel pain when we don't need to?
      
      No one is forcing you to be a vegetarian, but you should be a bit more open-minded about other people's choices.
      
      - madninjamonkey December 24, 2008 6:18PM
      
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      - Reply
        
        >Should we kill something that can feel pain when we don't need to?
        
        Apparently you give no consideration to the fact that animals raised for meat consumption would have no life otherwise. Meat animals are kept comfortable, protected from weather extremes and provided with the very best of diet.
        
        When meat animal production was on a smaller scale the animals received individual petting and back scratching, and were often individually known by name. Of course there was no question as to the eventual slaughtering for meat. It was as certain as death will be for you or myself!
        
        At the funeral of a neighboring farmer who had milked a few cows and raised hogs for income the priest remarked "And he loved his pigs" !
        
        In the waters the largest fish eat smaller fish,which eat smaller fish.
        
        Consider what happens to the soybean plant. It grows and matures seed. Along comes a giant machine. Steel reciprocating knives slice of the plant a few inches above the ground. The plant is crowded along with other plants into a steel drum with rough steel bars which literally forces the tiny seeds to be separated from the pods. The beans are elevated into a collecting hopper by steel bladed augers. They will get dumped augered, eventually processed with grinding and heat and maybe fermentation.
        
        Did the carrot you ate yesterday really want to be removed from the ground without reaching its reproductive stage?
        
        The most sustainable type of farming would be what existed near a century ago with every farm having an assortment of livestock, raising their food from the land, and using the animal manure for maintaining fertility. Mechanization and economic forces have made farming more specialized.
        
        It is usually suggested that as third world countries improve their wealth their diets tend to include more meat- because they can afford it. The meat gets produce because it adds to the farmers income. Economic forces play a big role.
        
        Hal 84
        
        - Hal 84 December 25, 2008 6:58AM
        
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        Reply to Hal 84
        
        Please watch this movie about factory farms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4
        
        Farms aren't like that any more. They are absolute torture for animals. I think that I would prefer never being born to living in a farm and then killed for food.
        
        Plants and animals are completely different. Carrots and soybeans do not have brains, nervous systems, or pain receptors, so they can't feel or think like animals can.
        
        You're right, meat is easier to produce, but America isn't a third world country, is it?
        
        - madninjamonkey December 26, 2008 9:46AM
        
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        Have you been on any kind of farm?
        
        >Farms aren't like that any more. They are absolute torture for animals.
        
        I must seriously challenge that statement!
        
        If meat animals were released they many would die- especially in winter and in cooler climstes.
        
        Some are suggesting that cattle must be grass fed- yet grass is only available half the year. To ensure survival grains must be produced and "roughage" (essential dried and processed {baled or chopped} hay be provided. Part of the feed supply may come from "silage" which is hay , corn whole plant or other materials placed in a near airtight container in which it ferments a bit which enhances its keeping quality. In many cases the winter diet is feed the whole year through because it is consistent and predictable.
        
        Back to the quote. Since I have not been commissioned an inspector of farms, I speak from what knowledge I have of livestock farming. I had a dairy far until the first 1/3 of my life.
        
        The only cases where someone has been prosecuted for animal neglect have been "hobby farms" (usually many horses and some other assorted livestock.
        
        It is completely unprofitable for anyone raising meat animals to mistreat, starve, or in any way mistreat the animals.
        
        To a great extent a livestock farm is the equivalent of the six star all inclusive.
        
        Hal 84
        
        - Hal 84 December 26, 2008 12:12PM
        
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        More comments in this thread
the question is the problem

Putting aside ethical concerns, the question "Are vegetarians healthier?" really is the problem with this whole debate. The problem is that there are too many confounding variables to know the answer without good scientific study. And, as of yet, I haven't seen any good scientific studies on the issue. I'm not saying they're not out there, I just haven't been able to find them. (I'm getting my Ph.D. in experimental psychology.) Maybe vegetarians are healthier than non-vegetarians, but is it because they are vegetarians or because of some other variable related to vegetarianism? For instance, do vegetarians eat more fruits/vegetables? Do they exercise more? Do they eat more whole grains? Do they generally care more about their health? To answer these questions, we need to compare vegetarians to non-vegetarians who are matched up on all of the above criteria. It's important that people understand that this is really not a simple question that can be answered with a yes or no.

- ashshea February 25, 2009 1:17PM

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Regarding Argument

Fact: Meat is Good For You

- From Scott Gold

Open Argument Go to this Argument

Facts are important

"The research project culminated in a 20-year partnership of Cornell University, Oxford University, and the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine, a survey of diseases and lifestyle factors in rural China and Taiwan. More commonly known as the China Study, “this project eventually produced more than 8000 statistically significant associations between various dietary factors and disease.”

The findings? “People who ate the most animal-based foods got the most chronic disease … People who ate the most plant-based foods were the healthiest and tended to avoid chronic disease. These results could not be ignored,” said Dr. Campbell."

http://www.thechinastudy.com/about.html

- reckoner October 8, 2008 9:46AM

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Veganism is goog for you

Anyone curious about vegan health should read this:
http://www.veganhealth.org /

Here's the vegan food pyramid:
http://www.chooseveg.com/vegan-food-pyramid.asp

Being vegan is easy, satisfying, and healthy. Period.

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 9:46AM

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What about soil?

B12 is not just found in animal products as you say. It's primarily found in soil and is produced by bacteria. Unfortunately with soil contamination and erosion (problems caused by intensive and animal based agriculture) soil is no longer a reliable or safe source. Actually, I wouldn't consider getting B12 from the rotting carcasses of dead animals to be a safe source either...
Also, you are just plain wrong about soy not being a complete protein. PLAIN WRONG. I suggest you read a book that was printed within the last 50 years for verification.
As I said in another comment, I've been vegan for 16 years and take no supplement other than nutritional yeast. I've never had to take any special care to combine the right foods together just to get adequate nutrition and my doctor tells me I'm as "healthy as a horse" (another herbivore). I just eat a variety of whole foods. That's all.
As far as arguing with the "creds" of the ADA, I suggest you take a look at the ADA's position on Vegan diets for all stages of human life. (Spoiler: It's favorable)
I'm willing to bet that you've never seriously tried veganism (or at all) and that it just threatens your complacency to the point that you'll desperately (and erroneously) try to discredit it. I'd say your many factual errors support this conclusion.

- HumanAnimal October 8, 2008 12:21PM

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Bill Castelli

William Castelli directed the long running Framingham Heart Study for over 26 years. Here are some of his quotes;

"Vegetarians have the best diet. They have the lowest rates of coronary disease of any group in the country....Some people scoff at vegetarians, but they have a fraction of our heart attack rate and they have only 40 percent of our cancer rate. They outlive other men by about six years now."

"If Americans adopted a vegetarian diet, the whole thing (the heart disease epidemic) would disappear"

Americans have been "brainwashed to eat meat"

http://www.pbs.org/saf/1104/features/castelli.htm

- HumanAnimal October 8, 2008 1:28PM

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The Paleo Diet

This is the diet I try to maintain, and from what I've seen in people who practice it, it tends to be one of the healthiest diets around.

One of the biggest problems with meat eating is the low quality of meat obtained in the common markets. Meat can be extremely healthy when not overdone, and when eaten from sources that were fed and raised under natural conditions, or a close approximation of natural conditions. Meat can be extremely unhealthy when fed poor quality foods (but cheap, all important to the business of selling meat), when pumped with steroids and hormones and other junk, and when packaged with preservatives, salts, and other additives.

Compare the "average American diet" to just about any diet, whether vegan, raw foods, the paleo diet, or fruitarians...and guess what.... You'll find that almost ANY diet is better than the average American diet. So I don't put much stock in studies that compare "the common diet" to a specific regimen. The real test would be to compare someone on Atkins, to someone on Paleo, to someone Vegan, to someone Fruitarian, etc. Comparing to the average diet is comparing to the lowest common denominator. MOST diets look superior in comparison to that. Not a fair comparison.

The question becomes, "are vegetarians healthier than people on all other diets, or just compared to the average diet?" I would assert that they're healthier in comparison to the average. Based on my personal experience with people on a variety of diets, I would also assert that they're not healthier when compared to people who eat one of these diets: The Paleo Diet, The Raw Foods Diet, or the Mediterranean Diet. All three of those include meat. I have personally seen friends go from diabetic and needing regular insulin, to not needing the insulin any more while eating the Paleo or Raw Foods diets. I have never seen that happen to a vegan.

Resources for the Paleo Diet:
http://www.thepaleodiet.com /
http://www.paleodiet.net /
http://www.paleodiet.com /
http://paleofood.com /

- ebsarver October 8, 2008 3:18PM

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- You make a good point
  
  I agree with most of what you say, however, the bit about diabetics not needing insulin is a well-documented aspect of vegetarianism. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/26/health/webmd/main1837927.shtml
  
  But if you read The China Study, you will see that diets of already quite healthy chinese people were taken into account. There was a direct link between amount of meat proteins consumed, and the chance of being afflicted with some disease or another.
  
  - sonofwill October 8, 2008 5:41PM
  
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  - Thanks!
    
    Thanks for the link. That's some interesting info I'd never seen before. I appreciate it.
    
    - ebsarver October 8, 2008 5:59PM
    
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  - Diabetes + Problems with The China Study
    
    Improvement in the symptoms of diabetes is not uncommon on healthy diets that incorporate meat—even high amounts, as in the paleo diet. A wonderful explanation of why low carb diets improve the symptoms of diabetes is here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/diabetes / Some anecdotal evidence here: http://robbwolf.com/?p=144
    
    ---
    
    A well written rebuttal to The China Study can be found here: http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html
    
    Campbell has a response to that here: http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/campbell_china_response.htm I haven't read the China Study itself but I gather that it advocates abstaining from animal sources of protein. In the response, I think Campbell tries to dodge out of that advocacy and also fails to make any response of substance to Masterjohn's nutritional claims.
    
    Masterjohn then has a response to the response here: http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Campbell-Masterjohn.html Masterjohn apparently edited out an ad hom in in his original rebuttal, which is kinda shady, but he at least admits it...
    
    - Kobold October 27, 2008 12:37AM
    
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- seconding sonofwill
  
  I want to second what sonofwill said. Check out The China Study when you get a chance.
  
  http://www.thechinastudy.com/about.html
  
  - reckoner October 8, 2008 8:29PM
  
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meat is good for you

Well here's my two cents from the peanut gallery: For 24 years I suffered from hypertension and then a year ago November was I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. I changed my diet. The culprit? Hyperinsulinemia was depleting my magnesium levels causing my blood vessels to constrict and and my pressure to skyrocket to 170/110. I also had become insulin resistant. The fix? I cut out all sugars, grains, cereals, pasta, bread, potatoes and starches. I only eat slow burning carbs (broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, spinach, legumes, quinoa) and fish, eggs, cheese or meat. I cannot tolerate grains or sugars: the mainstay of vegetarian dieters. I am now off ALL medication ( used to take 6 pills/day for the above). Listen folks, I have compassion for animals myself - but I draw the line at my dinner plate. I take great offense when self-righteous animal rights activists try to tell me what's healthy for ME. A carbohydrate type can thrive on your cuisine - but a protein type like myself cannot. My most recent ancestors (I am a quarter-breed Amerindian) didn't just eat "maize": They ate buffalo and deer - raw kidneys, raw liver, raw intestine and they were hunter gatherers - that's what feral man is and has always been for thousands of years. Please don't tell me we are all "higher evolved" than that. I've tried to be vegetarian at least a dozen times with no luck at all. Hunting is in my blood - like a cat chases a ball of string and it's in my genes. I eat what I kill and feel not an ounce of pity. You kill them on the road anyway driving to work for the green frog skin. And I have news for you: farmers have to kill nuisance animals galore just to give you a vegan diet, so you end up killing animals anyway. If wolves and bears can hunt, so can I - and your dietary advice is outdated. Only fermented soy products are healthy for you. (See Dr.Mercola's website for the lowdown. You're not getting nature's goodness but a chemical feast when you eat tofu burgers. And read Dr.Ron Rosedale's article on insulin metabolism). Also I have a question: If you saw a little girl and her puppy dog on the road but coudn't swerve in time to avoid both, which one would you hit? In my book it's a no-brainer (my sympathies to poor fido not withstanding). BTW, I'm also a member of "PETA": People Eating Tasty Animals and tonight I'm having veal scallopini.

- alpan January 20, 2009 8:19AM

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- Meat and diabetes
  
  I know of some similar experiences from friends. There is seemingly a lot to gain from removing the group of foods that you mention.
  I try to be vegan most of the time myself, but even if I am quite carb-tolerant, I have to have some proper protein and fat foods in my diet to feel any good. For veganism to be applicable to a larger group of people other than the carb-tolerant, the type of foods grown and marketed for vegans need to improve. Seed-types that store energy as fat, and have more protein, are the future in that respect. And other legumes need to replace the prevalence of soy. I do agree that soy is problematic (the taste of it alone is a good indicator) and unfortunately, soy is most often the protein-alternative, at least where I'm at in the world.
  But the problem is, for the vast majority of the world's urban population, hunting is not an option (for reasons of both practicality and available game), and meat from domestic animals can't be sustainably produced to the rate so that we can all live like our hunter-gatherer ancestors, the numbers of agricultural area available per person simply doesn't add up. In my opinion, to have more people getting the benefit of a diet more appopriate to us, we may need to approximate a diet that may not be vegan, but has more proper grown and processed, protein and fat-rich foods of plant origin.
  
  - Francis February 5, 2009 6:30PM
  
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What you don't know about soy as a "health food"

For those of you using soy products here's more food for thought:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2004/01/21/soy-part-eight.aspx

- alpan January 21, 2009 1:09AM

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Regarding Objection

Meat is No Health Food

- From PETA

Open Objection Go to this Objection

Grains are no Heath Food for Me

Well here's my two cents from the peanut gallery: For 24 years I suffered from hypertension and then a year ago November was I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. I changed my diet. The culprit? Hyperinsulinemia was depleting my magnesium levels causing my blood vessels to constrict and and my pressure to skyrocket to 170/110. I also had become insulin resistant. The fix? I cut out all sugars, grains, cereals, pasta, bread, potatoes and starches. I only eat slow burning carbs (broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, spinach, legumes, quinoa) and fish, eggs, cheese or meat. I cannot tolerate grains or sugars: the mainstay of vegetarian dieters. I am now off ALL medication ( used to take 6 pills/day for the above). Listen folks, I have compassion for animals myself - but I draw the line at my dinner plate. I take great offense when self-righteous animal rights activists try to tell me what's healthy for ME. A carbohydrate type can thrive on your cuisine - but a protein type like myself cannot. My most recent ancestors (I am a quarter-breed Amerindian) didn't just eat "maize": They ate buffalo and deer - raw kidneys, raw liver, raw intestine and they were hunter gatherers - that's what feral man is and has always been for thousands of years. Please don't tell me we are all "higher evolved" than that. I've tried to be vegetarian at least a dozen times with no luck at all. Hunting is in my blood - like a cat chases a ball of string and it's in my genes. I eat what I kill and feel not an ounce of pity. You kill them on the road anyway driving to work for the green frog skin. And I have news for you: farmers have to kill nuisance animals galore just to give you a vegan diet, so you end up killing animals anyway. If wolves and bears can hunt, so can I - and your dietary advice is outdated. Only fermented soy products are healthy for you. (See Dr.Mercola's website for the lowdown. You're not getting nature's goodness but a chemical feast when you eat tofu burgers. And read Dr.Ron Rosedale's article on insulin metabolism). Also I have a question: If you saw a little girl and her puppy dog on the road but coudn't swerve in time to avoid both, which one would you hit? In my book it's a no-brainer (my sympathies to poor fido not withstanding). BTW, I'm also a member of "PETA": People Eating Tasty Animals and tonight I'm having veal scallopini.

- alpan January 20, 2009 1:47AM

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Meat is my health food

Well here's my two cents from the peanut gallery: For 24 years I suffered from hypertension and then a year ago November was I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. I changed my diet. The culprit? Hyperinsulinemia was depleting my magnesium levels causing my blood vessels to constrict and and my pressure to skyrocket to 170/110. I also had become insulin resistant. The fix? I cut out all sugars, grains, cereals, pasta, bread, potatoes and starches. I only eat slow burning carbs (broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, spinach, legumes, quinoa) and fish, eggs, cheese or meat. I cannot tolerate grains or sugars: the mainstay of vegetarian dieters. I am now off ALL medication ( used to take 6 pills/day for the above). Listen folks, I have compassion for animals myself - but I draw the line at my dinner plate. I take great offense when self-righteous animal rights activists try to tell me what's healthy for ME. A carbohydrate type can thrive on your cuisine - but a protein type like myself cannot. My most recent ancestors (I am a quarter-breed Amerindian) didn't just eat "maize": They ate buffalo and deer - raw kidneys, raw liver, raw intestine and they were hunter gatherers - that's what feral man is and has always been for thousands of years. Please don't tell me we are all "higher evolved" than that. I've tried to be vegetarian at least a dozen times with no luck at all. Hunting is in my blood - like a cat chases a ball of string and it's in my genes. I eat what I kill and feel not an ounce of pity. You kill them on the road anyway driving to work for the green frog skin. And I have news for you: farmers have to kill nuisance animals galore just to give you a vegan diet, so you end up killing animals anyway. If wolves and bears can hunt, so can I - and your dietary advice is outdated. Only fermented soy products are healthy for you. (See Dr.Mercola's website for the lowdown. You're not getting nature's goodness but a chemical feast when you eat tofu burgers. And read Dr.Ron Rosedale's article on insulin metabolism). Also I have a question: If you saw a little girl and her puppy dog on the road but coudn't swerve in time to avoid both, which one would you hit? In my book it's a no-brainer (my sympathies to poor fido not withstanding). BTW, I'm also a member of "PETA": People Eating Tasty Animals and tonight I'm having veal scallopini.

- alpan January 20, 2009 1:51AM

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Yes, I agree with Dr. Mercola's article on soya

And that good lean meat is good for us.
I have several friends that are vegetarians
and they are not healthier than I am, and
two of the three have plenty of health
problems actually. The amounts of vitamins
they are taking could be described as too
much to be good for them as well.

- Panther April 10, 2009 12:52AM

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To Say Meat Is Not Healthy Is Ridiculous, but

the rest of the argument was reasonable and from my experience true. When consumed in moderation lean meat can be a healthy part of anyone's diet .

- ieatcomputers June 12, 2009 5:53PM

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Regarding Argument

Who vs. Who Again?

- From Scott Gold

Open Argument Go to this Argument

You're right - diet isn't everything.

Diet is only one factor. Even vegans should exercise!

Three cases does not a compelling argument make.

The studies show - over and over again - that vegetarians and vegans tend to be just as healthy or more healthy than their meat-eating counterparts. Certainly, there are counter-examples to any real life argument, but ultimately, vegetarianism and veganism is a healthy choice.

You're right, even vegetarians and vegans should exercise. You're right, even vegetarians and vegans should avoid excess sugar, alcohol, and other unhealthy substances. You're right, even vegetarians and vegans can be genetically predisposed to some diseases. However, vegetarianism and veganism are is still very healthy choices!

Go vegan. Not only will your body thank you, but your conscience will too :)

- ElaineVigneault October 8, 2008 9:53AM

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- Maybe your conscience will thank you...
  
  ..But non-domesticated animals do not care whether you live or die. Many want to kill you and some will eat you if your dead. Maybe roadkill doesn't look good to you now but try scavenging in the wild for a time. Most of those veggies have very few calories and almost no protein (a necessity). Then see how good an animal looks.
  
  - Schismatized October 28, 2008 6:31AM
  
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  - your implication is wrong
    
    vegetarians easily get enough protein and calories. If anything, Americans eat far too many calories and protein.
    
    - reckoner October 28, 2008 12:39PM
    
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    - You are right
      
      Vegetarians get plenty of protein from legumes and whey. Anything that is poisonous raw (beans) or is shown to cause cancer (dairy) can't be too healthy.
      
      - Schismatized October 30, 2008 5:21AM
      
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