Each year more than a million children are homeschooled in the United States, and that number is steadily growing. While some parents believe homeschooling is an ideal situation, others fear that a student's education can be severely hindered in such an environment. When making a decision about your child's education, which is the more reasonable school of thought?
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A "Quality Education" is subjective. The state or government has decided what this "quality" is. Is the government right? Do they know anything about children or child development? The politicians have voted as to what a child should know by what grade level. Should children all be treated like carbon copies of each other? This one-size fits all educational model is good for programming robots, but not children.
- karribest
September 15, 2008 11:19AM
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The entire point of public education is to provide drone-like workers. I thought everyone knew that. :)
Surprisingly, I do not favor the voucher system; but everyone should home school.
However, yes... the government has people who do know more than a little about children and child development. To say otherwise is just as ......well, just as uncool as saying all children are the same.
Also, I noticed you're on the NO side. But the question asks "Should You Homeschool?" which means you should have answered "Yes". There's another question that's like that, but I can't remember which one now.
- SocialistBetty December 24, 2008 11:26PM
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As with all major decisions, there are numerous factors to be considered. I don't feel there is one specific answer to this question for everyone. Regarding home schooling, I think some of the factors to be considered are: capability of parents to teach, quality of teachers in local schools, quality of curiculum in local schools, any special needs of a particular student, inter-action with other students, social and sports activities, etc. etc.
Most likely in certain instances it would be better for the child to be schooled at home. In other instances, public or private schools should be chosen. Fortunately in this country, parents have the choice.
- mellis September 15, 2008 2:49PM
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My daughter has a very high quality education, she is not lacking in any area. We are lucky that my husband and I have strengths in different areas thus providing her a much better education than she could obtain at school.
Public schools, in my opinion only teach to the tests. It's not the fault of the teacher's, but the fault of those at the administrative level in State and Federal Government. I do not fault the teacher's for the despair of our educational system, they are asked to perform miracles.
I disagree that schools provide a standard quality education. My twelve year old daughter's cousin, who is a year older, can barely read, and even now, does not know how to multiply. This is a child who is in 7th grade in public school. A friend of my daughter's can not spell even the most basic words, words that should have been taught back in elementary school. These two examples are not unusual, they're the norm.
My husband teaches at the collegiate level and colleges all over the country are trying to figure out how to deal with all of the unprepared high school graduates entering college. MANY of these students can't handle a college class and have to spend a few semesters in remedial classes, just to get to caught up on what they should have learned in high school. Not only that, these 18, 19, 20 year olds aren't mentally equipped to handle college either. They don't know how to handle the independence, and many struggle and expect to be led every step of the way.
Most homeschoolers I've met not only can work independently, they can think outside the box better than most adults! Most homeschoolers, have a better understanding of how the world works and why it works the way it works...which is a MUCH better skill than what is taught in public schools - rote memorization.
Homeschoolers get the highest quality education regardless of how they are taught...you can't beat the teacher student ratio at home!
- kashicaat September 15, 2008 7:12PM
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I'm sorry, but I don't know a single 12 year old who can't read. I volunteer at my friend's child's school. There's not a kid in that school who can't read who is mentally able to do so. I think you're either exaggerating, or you know some really dumb kids.
I'm just wondering where you think the parent's responsibility in this is. Apparently, you favor homeschooling.... what has your brother (or sister) been failing to do that his (or her) daughter can barely read and hasn't learned her multiplication tables? If your niece's parents could do such a good job homeschooling you wouldn't see your niece failing to make the grade.
Schooling, to a large degree and no matter where the child is enrolled - public, private, whatever - begins and ends at home. It is the parents responsibility to know how their child is progressing and to take appropriate measures. It is the parents who should be educating their children from the time their children are born. This responsibility doesn't end because the kids are school aged.
I see an alarming trend of parents seeing school as a baby-sitter. That's where it starts and it only gets worse. If parents truly cared about their child's education, they wouldn't leave it to the schools and the schools alone.
- SocialistBetty December 24, 2008 11:36PM
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I'm very happy you don't know any 12 year old kids who can't read - neither do I. I said I know kids who can BARELY read, and yes, there is a distinct difference. But there are twelve year olds who can't read. Their are adults who can't read - if I was exaggerating why are there adult literacy programs?? They're there because many of the above mentioned kids fall through the cracks and never learn to read - they can't read basic job applications, they just don't know what words mean. There is no reason for me to exaggerate and yes, I do know some very unfortunate kids who are very deficient in their skill set. Some of my close friends are teachers and I sympathize with what they deal with on a daily basis.
I homeschool so I feel very strongly that parents should shoulder their share of responsibility for the education of their own children. My brother -in - law had very little involvement and the ex-wife had even less. It's a sad situation but it's not a unique situation. There's very little involvement with some parents in any school - rich or poor.
Yes,education begins at home but at the same time, schools should not pass kids from grade to grade who have not yet mastered the skills of that grade. It happens - all the time! My husband sees it in many of his math classes. He sees it in the emails from students - from students who are so inept at basic spelling skills that he can't even understand what they are trying to ask. At some point, schools are not doing their job, just as the parents are not doing their jobs.
- kashicaat December 25, 2008 11:33PM
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Time and again, it is proven that there is no formula for providing a quality education. Public (or private) traditional education has become the norm and default that our society follows. So people tend to assume there are no other options. Homeschoolers GET a quality education outside of the traditional schools. They get one on one attention, they get exposure to much more than traditionally schooled kids, when they are failing, it is noticed immediately and they are helped not placated. There are some odd occasions when a homeschooler is neglected and ends up with a less than adequate education, but proportionally there are many, many more people with a public education who end up with a less than adequate education. So the merits of this argument are simply baseless.
- charlene September 16, 2008 10:01AM
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"Home schooling often fails to meet at least some and sometimes all of these criteria."
There is no evidence to support this statement.
- crunchymom September 18, 2008 4:36AM
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The government monopoly on the education system has turned it into an unmitigated disaster. The government has been aided and abetted by teachers who believe their job is not to educate but to indoctrinate children, and turn them in to activists for "social justice". Children are not educated anymore, they are brainwashed. After "graduating" they are barely able to read, write and most are unable to think. Even a child with a mediocre home schooled education is better than what passes for education in the state schools. Unfortunately it's not just the state schools, private schools are pretty bad too, but as least they're not the cesspool of gang and drug culture that a lot of state schools are.
My wife is a teacher and there is no way our child will be going to a public school, if we can't find a half-decent charter school or affordable private school, homeschooling will be our only option.
- Nigel September 29, 2008 1:38PM
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.....Are you going to say your wife is the exception and not the norm?
I don't know where you people are, but I went to public schools. I remember every single one of my teachers. Only my third grade teacher was horrible. Mrs. Krupoff, where ever you are, you were downright mean and should never have been allowed near children, much less a teacher. You made me feel insignificant and unloved. Mrs. Hoch, Mrs. Heacox, Mrs. Hook, Mr. Jescarz, Mr. Bjorkquist, Mr. Walker, Ms. Levendowski, Mr. Cedarholm, Mrs. Moore, Mr. Ireland, Mrs. Swanson (formerly Miss Toby), Mr. Cupp, Mr. Homan, Mr. Stickney, Ditto Dave, Mr. Goff, Mr. Brown... the list gets long.
These teachers were wonderful. Every teacher I had with the noted exception of third grade and my 11th grade English teacher who sat on the desk and talked about football and gossiped about students (who is now an administrator in the U.P.) was thorough, and most accommodated my absolute refusal to do the homework provided I kept my test schools high. I was even allowed to pass biology II on the basis of my final exams (A-). They were dedicated. They were normal teachers.
But the most important teachers were my parents. This should be the norm. It was my parents who worked on my times tables with me. It was my parents who learned morse code along with my brothers and I. It was my parents who read with me and to me. It was my parents who taught me shapes and colors. My parents who taught me my alphabet. My parents that taught me how to write. It was my parents who explained homework. If kids are failing, I think it's the parents who are failing. Schools aren't to blame for a child who can't read at age 12... the parents are. Hands down, it's their primary job and instead of performing it, they're handing it off without a second glance to schools - which they look to as a babysitter.
Parents are the primary educators with or without being called a home school. If children are failing so miserably, I don't really think the majority of the blame can be placed on schools. That's all I'm saying.
- SocialistBetty December 25, 2008 12:14AM
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In Ohio, I went to private schools until third grade, then I went to public schools too. Most of my teachers were good at teaching, but all the curricula were substandard. I was reading comfortably at a 5th-grade level at the beginning of kindergarten, but was placed at that time simultaneously in letter-recognition class, phonics class, and 2nd-grade reading class. My math class was 1st-grade-level but was also too easy. I was drilled in math facts only half-heartedly, and never made to complete addition and times tables. I was taught about 2 years worth of grammar stretched over 6 years, and then grammar instruction ceased. I was made to retake 4th-grade reading when the school I transferred to wouldn’t accept my perfect grades in the course. From nursery school through a BA, I was never taught the slightest bit of logic, rhetoric, elocution, or history of any place outside the U.S. I was never made to read a single sentence of classic literature until I got to “college-prep” high-school classes where we read about one classic per year, a few stories and poems, and a lot of junk.
Public and most private schools are worse now, deplorably so. For instance, the public school here has no gifted program before 4th grade, and no grade acceleration. Here (still Ohio), gifted students are USED much of the school-day as tutors for the illiterate socially promoted, instead of working on academics full time. High school was once exclusively academic and college preparatory, now vocationalism permeates the curriculum. When my grandpa was young (in North Dakota), without having had nursery school or kindergarten, he could read and do addition and subtraction, so he was allowed to skip 1st and 2nd grades, then, because he was smart enough, he was allowed to skip 3 more grades throughout school. This was back when everyone learned Latin, higher arithmetic without calculators, and advanced grammar, before being allowed into high school. Read The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America for a thorough history of the horrible state of our school system.
You say, “Schools aren't to blame for a child who can't read at age 12... the parents are,” and parents are responsible for their children, not the government. But, is it the school’s job or not to teach a child to read, and the rest of the academic components of education? If the parents entrust this duty to the school, believing the school worthy enough, then it is the school’s job to do it with the greatest quality and efficiency, just the same as if the parent hired anyone else to do something for them. If it is not the school’s job, for instance, if the school is not worthy enough, then it is immoral for parents to let their children waste their intellectual potentials there.
- GretaHoostal March 12, 2009 9:09PM
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Sorry... I don't believe half of that story.
- SocialistBetty March 16, 2009 3:30AM
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Let me preface this with the fact that for half of my life (my elementary school years), I was homeschooled. Throughout other years, I attended private schools and public schools. I am saying this so those reading my comment will know I have had a wide variety of personal experiences, and so I feel I am perhaps more qualified to comment on where I personally received the best education.
For me, public and private education were much the same. Both were highly political (and politically correct), catered to the learning level of the poorest-performing students, and provided stressful and uncreative environments. Homeschooling with my mother had its problems, too. If I had an argument with my teacher, it didn't leave once school was over. During the time I was homeschooled, the 90s, there was not much in the way of good support groups; the Internet has made this problem disappear for today's homeschoolers, however. Those were really the biggest problems I experienced. I was taught by my mother, a person who does not have a college degree, but is certainly just as smart as many who do.
I learned faster and better so much so in homeschooling that by the time I entered public education in fifth grade, I was about three years ahead of my peers; I was given the chance to skip a grade as well, but I didn't take it. I literally did not even have to try; I made A's without thinking. It was as if I went on a very long summer vacation. Top that with the fact that I was actually attending quite a good public school with some nice teachers, and one can see what "quality" usually means in mainstream, standardized education.
Students do indeed deserve to have a quality education, but I am highly skeptical as to whether this can consistently come from a government-regulated curriculum and teaching body. After all, the government isn't exactly excellent at managing much of anything, which is evident from recent events. The few good teachers I did have in public education were those who bucked the system and often, because of that, were fired, admonished or ostracized for their creativity. (Perhaps this happened because it made all the other teachers look lazy.)
Also, bringing up standards is a very bad idea for anti-homeschooling groups, when, in fact, homeschooled children have to take the same exact state and federally-mandated standardized tests as all other school-aged children. We also happen to be just as good, if not better, at them! See https://hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp for documented evidence of this. A quick search about test results and homeschooling will consistently show anyone with doubts that homeschooled children are just as well adjusted as those going down the path more oft traveled.
One-on-one teaching encouraged and nurtured my dreams. While I did have a few very good teachers in the public school system, they were the exception, not the norm. (By and large, I had horrible, oftentimes vindictive teachers who clearly abhorred their job.) What was important in both homeschooling and public education, when it was good, was that I had someone who took notice of my learning in particular, not just what "the group" was achieving, not just what point grades I was getting, but what I was actually feeling, learning and growing into.
I don't know if any significant correlation can be made, but at 19 I packed and moved out not only from my parent's house, but also from the country (from the U.S. to Australia), for a three-year journey of my choosing. I've made some stupid mistakes, but overall, I've done very well. I attribute a lot of that to being taught how to be independent and savvy at an early age. Most of the people I went to public high school with still can't decide what degree they want to go into; when I talk to some of them online now, they are completely and utterly lost.
They are young, and it's not the end of the world, but I personally think that's only happening because they were so brainwashed and standardized that they never actually got a chance to "find themselves." They're struggling, because out of all the standardized tests, pointless hoops that they jumped through, and mediocre teachers, they were never given the real opportunity to develop personally and have their learning be more about them, rather than what the "groupthinking" government and teachers' unions want.
I hope to become an educator in the future, perhaps even in the greatly-dreaded public education sector, but I will certainly be bucking and questioning the system for my students' sake and for my own sanity. I also plan to homeschool my children when they are young, if possible. I want them to have a quality education and be able to grow within themselves. I don't think that is as consistently found in what is considered the norm for education. I know it isn't.
- leliathomas
December 11, 2008 10:49AM
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There has been massive amounts of psychological research published that suggest that children are more likely to retain information from their parents/guardian that they care about than they are from a third party in an institution. Psychologists speculate that because the information received from a loving parent is tied to certain positive neurological impulses in the brain it tends to be well remembered.
People associate feelings with pretty much everything else they do whether they realize it or not. For instance, I have always loved languages - until I learned Pashto. All my Pashto teachers were from Afghanistan and blatantly sexist both in their remarks in the classroom and in their grading styles. I learned to hate Pashto. To this day, I can't stand the language - and I love learning new languages.
Children associate feelings even more so than adults to the environment which they are in. A child who is stuck in math class with a belligerent teacher is likely to associate their contempt for their teacher to math. I'm not saying your child will develop a hatred of learning if he/she goes to public school. I'm not saying that everyone who home schools their children have their child's best interest at heart. But to insinuate that home schooled children lack a chance at a quality education because theirs is not a standardized classroom is in opposition to what the research shows.
If you want statistical evidence, here's a link:
http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp
If you are short on time, I would at least read the conclusion at the bottom of the page.
- Livvy December 31, 2008 3:30AM
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This sentiment comes from the book, DUMBING US DOWN by John Taylor Gatto, and it pretty much sums up my feelings as well. It is my very educated opinion that any parent that puts their children in what is known as todays public school system either hates their children or doesnt care if they are victimized.
Another good book is, Character Under Attack by Carl Sommers, another teacher who informs us of what we already know deep down inside, that you can beat your head against a wall all day long but you will not change a corrupt system. While I do agree with him I have seen some changes but too little too late ie read about Cody Enterprise enewspaper on sex ed vote on removing outside venders from teaching sex ed. It took only two and half years but with over 500 parent and student signatures and a task force to evalutate the local family planning office teaching students about sex-ed to come up with the conclusion that hey we just might be undermining any possiblity of teaching them virtues when we have the culprit teach the class and therefore we now have teachers doing the job they should have been doing all along. But as wonderful as this is, its too much to do with a situation as corrupted as we are currently experiencing in public schools today.
I have been home schooling now for over a year and I wouldnt ever go back, not even under threat of jail, my child is more important to me than life itself and family is not worth risking anymore. This is what it was like before schools were ever invented when parents did teaching because its been a great experience for me and my family. Look around if it not violence on the campuses, its students harassing students, if its not that its poor academics and test scores, if not that its poorly maintained buses ie Yuba City High School bus accident of 1976, if not that its pregancies and pornographic images of homosexual fisting in schools, or raping of 13 yo boys with hockey sticks, or teachers seducing students, or professors selling their sons for sex, I could go on and on...When will the parents smarten up and show love and respect to their kids and take them out of hell aka public schools today.
- Hope7 July 1, 2009 7:12PM
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The notion that the public schools are providing students with a quality education is so laughable, I have a hard time believing that the author intended us to take her objection seriously. To say that public schools are failing students on a massive scale is hardly controversial. It is a national crisis.
I understand that many families simply cannot afford for one parent to stay home. The question "Should you homeschool?" is poorly worded to make a positive response sound like everyone ought to be homeschooling their kids. That is not the case. There are other options besides homeschooling for ensuring that your child gets a good education. No parent, though, should be blaisé about sending his child aboard the sinking ship of public school education, where accountability is measured by nothing more than the grades on a standardized test, and yet is still out of the reach of a large percentage of the public schools. Parents who do not have the good fortune to be able to educate their children must be vigilant about making sure that they are doing well in the public schools. In the final analysis, the responsibility is the parents'.
- Ardsgaine September 17, 2008 7:12PM
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Very well stated. The responsibility should and is the parents whether they choose public, private, tutor or homeschool. Or a combination of these or some other path.
As for the 'one parent stays home' well, even that is not correct anymore. Both my spouse and I work full-time and we know many other homeschoolers in this same situation. It can be done. Not ALL jobs require a standard 9-5 schedule.
- Laughing at you September 18, 2008 7:41AM
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That's excellent that you guys have worked out a way to homeschool while both working.
Incidentally, there is a problem with the poll. I did not answer 'no' to the question "Should you homeschool;" I answered 'no' to the question "Are homeschooled students at a disadvantage." Opposing Views needs to straighten out their poll results.
- Ardsgaine September 27, 2008 1:28PM
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I believed it was the socially responsible thing to do. I found my participation in the clasroom was helpful to the teachers and to many of the students but it didn't really do much to improve the education of my children. My children were being damaged by being in the classrooms and they were losing out on all I could offer them at home. I now homeschool my children. I'm sorry the classrooms lost an involved parent but I had to do what was right for my children.
- rose September 15, 2008 1:16PM
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I, too, was an involved classroom parent. The schools FAILED. We now homeschool and my kids are allowed to move at their own pace. They are grade levels above their peers.
Gee. Should I send them back to be dumbed down? I think not.
- Laughing at you September 18, 2008 7:45AM
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Do you homeschool through public school assistance? Or do you choose and purchase your own curriculum? I'm new at homeschooling. There is so much on homeschooling online, it could get a little confusing. Would you have any advice for moms who are new to homeschooling.
Thank You,
Maribel
- Belle0074 December 13, 2008 5:30PM
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We spent thirty minutes on 6-8 subjects per day leaving a nice chunk of the day for just being together etc. It fluctuated due to music lessons once per week and pe, which was going to the gym, or doing our weight training exercises from a licensed trainer, lady from our church gave me a list after evaluating our personal body needs. I got my materials on line from places like sonlight curriculum, local school supply store, paperbackswap, and from book sales at public library, and other moms. So my teaching is very eclectic. ( spelling not my strong suit). I hope to encorporate more science next year.
1. Bible
2. Spelling-sonlight book
3. Music practice daily and lessons once per week
4. Language Arts-sonlight book
5. Math-from local school supply store
6 Writing ( not every day)
7. PE
8. Community Service ( not daily) I used this as Civic duty lesson
9. Art work-Walmart craft section ( not daily)
10. Reading- variety of places, mostly library rentals
- Hope7 July 2, 2009 11:46AM
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I had her join girls scouts for socializing and girsl team basketball and handbells. She is now active in softball.
- Hope7 July 2, 2009 11:48AM
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Compulsory public education has been and remains an important pillar of our democracy"
Compulsory schooling was never a pillar of our democracy. It was jammed into our lives by greedy businessmen. If it was to be a pillar of our democracy then why leave it our of our founding documents?
It was never intended to force tripe down the children's mouth. That happened when two groups got together. Big business and teachers. There were both looking for a more secure financial future. It was never about making life better for children.
- purelabor September 25, 2008 11:19PM
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Excellent results have been obtained from public and homeschools. Poor results have been obtained from both public schools and homeschools as well.
The question becomes, "Would the schools have done a better job with the children who "fell through the gap" at home?" In spite of a few exceptions, it is argued strongly, that they could not. How? The 'best education comes about when parents are involved in their children's education.' Most the parents who fail their children via homeschooling 'are not involved enough.' Most of these 'problem homeschoolers' were 'problem public schoolers' first. The system had already proven itself incapable of addressing the needs of these children. The parents in question either would not or could not advocate successfully for their children. Perhaps some of them, believing the lie that 'Professionals know best', then gave up. (to learn more about a philosophy and methodology of education which empowers all students to increase their ability to learn, study the Charlotte Mason Series found here: http://www.amblesideonline.org /)
The author states that parents must be involved, then he goes on to provide a narrow and limiting view of what the participation of the parent should be. The presumption of this definition promotes a prevalent attitude that parents need to stay out of the Professionals way. This presumption is often applied in unprofessional ways. On multiple occasions, when polling a significant number of parents holding to the same concerns, they were all told by the same staff members that, "You are the only parent who is concerned about this." This was unprofessional, untrue and a tactic of controlling the growing number of parents who oppose 'the will of the school.'
Class content might arguably vary from class to class, but when the quality of content varies so greatly for no good reasons, the result makes a mockery of this 'best education'. Further, the right of the people should be heard concerning content related to worldview issues. More than one world view can be discussed in a classroom setting, and the administrators and teachers should not define which world view positions should not be discussed. The limitations on freedom of speech by such policies not only limits free speech, but it programs children of parents who are unaware of this attack on freedom of speech to think institutionally, disturbingly resembling mind control, which does not promote the freedoms of this country (nor democracy even if we were a democracy).
Best practices in educational philosophy and methods have been proven throughout the centuries. The most recent macrocosm affected by 'best practices' resulted from the works of Charlotte Mason, whose teachings were applied in classroom settings. Further, these 'best practices' do work for all 'learning styles.' But, when the limited definition of parental involvement is applied, and they do not listen, the Professionals continue to engage in ineffective methods and philosophies of education.
A true Charlotte Mason (CM) education produces students who both self-govern and think for themselves in measure far beyond typical Americans today. CM students are much more aware of the history behind the political philosophies at stake, thus they can more effectively protect the freedoms they and their posterity were meant to enjoy. Yet educators resist such changes. (read the first chapters of Mortimer Adler's classic read _How to Read a Book_ for more)
The philosophies most necessary to protecting the freedoms we enjoy are simply this: natural law, which boils down to 'doing what you say you will do' and 'do not encorach.' These are unheard of by most public schooled citizens. If you doubt this, do some research and take a poll for yourself.
It is true that these truths are not written into the Constitution itself. Google Bluestocking Press online and ask them for a book explaining why. (Educate yourself if you were not adequately educated - but don't believe everything from Bluestocking Press either. Think for yourself.)
In spite of the author's concern that "While preparation for work is important, this economic dimension to schooling should not replace or obscure the primary reason for the existence of public education: that everyone-independent of family or social standing-should have the ability to think clearly and critically, and to gain the skills necessary to participate intelligently in our political democracy. It is also important to have a broad range of knowledge," the public schools en masse have obviously failed to do just that, according to the litmus test of 'a knowledge of natural law.'
It is time to fight for the education which public schools claim they produce, but which, it is hoped, very few administrators and educators realize exists. Otherwise, they truly are on a mission to dumb down America.
- bomackin September 26, 2008 9:40AM
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Not all public education is the same. Students that live in poor communities don't have the same education opportunities than those who live in a middle to rich class communities. I live in one of those communities.
My son is a late bloomer, he has struggled to keep up with his class in every grade. I attended meeting after meeting with his teachers, principals to try and get him some help ( tutoring ). Every meeting ended with " all he needs is a push, or an extra 15 minutes with his teacher, whom by the way would in turn remark " she didn't have that extra 15 minutes to work with him. I couldn't blame her. She had a full class of over 22 students and was behind with her own curriculum. The principal at one point wanted me to wait until my son reached the 5th grade to see how bad his learning difficulties were affecting him in class. There was no way I was going to wait 3 years. We decided we would sacrifice and use our savings to send him to private school. It was the best thing we ever did. The first year his confidence level in his work went through the roof, he was in a smaller class, and instead of D's he was getting A's and B's. Well, my husbands job was cutting positions and we could not send him the following year. I decided I was not going to send him back to public school. They did nothing to help him. I wish I could send him to public school, but not in my community , where I have to worry about gangs or teenage bullying. I have no other choice than to home school my son, and to be honest I love spending more time with him, and giving him that extra attention he needs with his work. As far as social interaction, I take him out of my community for football, art and music lessons. Not all public school education is the same.
- Belle0074 December 13, 2008 5:23PM
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"Compulsory public education has been and remains an important pillar of our democracy" What doesnt this mean? A democracy is where people get a right to vote for what is best for its people as a whole. I was under the impression that in 1870 free public education came about because of social reform due to poor farmers and the industrialized industries using the children of our country to supply a cheap work force. This is 2008 a very different world. The only democracy came about in 1990 when parents were given the right to choose the education most suited to their childs learning needs.
"to gain the skills necessary to participate intelligently in our political democracy" I want my children to learn to be intelligent, responsible and loving humans not to elighten them on how to participate in a political democracy. This is rediculous rhetoric.
- bethmen123 February 21, 2009 7:49PM
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"Today, thanks to public education , all children have an opportunity to reach their fullest potential."
Isn't it true, though, that the pace of the class is determined by the slowest learner? If so, I don't see how the "class genius" can reach anything more than the ability of the average classmate.
I have been homeschooled since second grade. I'm sixteen years old and attend FCCJ (now FSCJ, I think). I really have not seen the downside of homeschooling firsthand, yet I do believe that the effectiveness of any kind of education relies on the involvement of the parent .
Please reply. I'm curious :)
- stupidgenius April 6, 2009 8:38AM
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The standards that were put in place for public schools were to prove to parents that the schools are doing "something" for their children. When the mandatory "school for all" model was enacted, the government had to prove it to be a worthwhile endeavor for children. Standards are truly "smoke in mirrors." The testing or standardization that takes place does not guarantee a child will succeed or do well in life. Testing does not prove the child is or is not learning the material that is being taught. Learning does not happen for the child easily when one is scrutinized, tested, ranked and spoon fed the correct answers. Real learning happens when children are free to explore the world and find what is relevant for their lives. Standards or a "one-size fits all" education short changes children. Standards and testing is just the fight for state control over children. Most parents who take the time to homeschool their children care more deeply about their children's future than the state ever could. I see public educated children at a severe disadvantage when compared to homeschooled children.
- karribest September 15, 2008 10:55AM
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This is why I speak out so adamently.
http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/09b/hearing_0630/index.html
- Hope7 July 1, 2009 11:06PM
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"What about physics in fifth grade, if that's what the child is passionate about?"
My 5th grade daughter is studying Anatomy and is really excited about it. Show me a public school that allows that much learning. She is reading HS level books along with many of the classics. Books that are banned from PS due to ideas that are not in vogue today. Has a biracial person, she has to learn the truth of history, not the rewritten version that is served to Public School students. When we adopted her we were worried that she be told the truth and PS is not teaching the truth.
- purelabor September 25, 2008 10:32PM
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I have been a homeschool teacher, as well as a public school mom. I have seen the good and bad of both sides. At the time I homeschooled my son, we were living in a very poor neighborhood of hispanics, and the elementary school he would go to received an "F", while they were grading schools. The fact that I learned that while my son would start Kindergarten, the main goal was in getting all the children to speak English, really pushed me towards homeschooling. I believe it was the correct choice for us at the time. Now, in Florida, at least at the time, because we have since moved, at the end of each year, the child had to be tested by an accredited teacher, to ensure they were at grade level. I have to say, I have never worked so hard at anything in my life, before or since. To homeschool correctly, you must have tons of supplies, workbooks, learning material, not to mention that we joined several homeschooling groups in the area. As worried as I was, about him being able to meet grade level expectations, I had nothing to fear. He not only met grade level expectations, but he surpassed them. He was reading at an end of 1st grade level, and I had not only covered all subjects that were required, but I went beyond that, including enrolling him in Little League. He did not lack socialization. After moving to Washington, which has a better school system, and I was more at ease, I sent him to 2nd grade and he has been in public school ever since. Even though the schools he has gone to has not passed the state tests given, he has passed. I'm very involved with the school, and I'm home everyday to help with homework. I believe education is highly important, and that most parents don't take it as seriously as they should, whether they are homeschooling or sending their children to public school. My point being, that I believe it is the individual parent/parents who are responsible for their childrens education whether it be homeschooling or public school. It is not a question of whether we should homeschool, or public school our educations but what meets their needs at the time. If you're dedicated enough to homeschool, and believe me this takes a lot of dedication to get it right, or if you're an involved parent, making yourself available to the teachers as well as your child/children for homework or just to talk about problems they're having, then you're making the right choice. Anyway, that's my two cents.
- michecrawfo1 September 15, 2008 9:35AM
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I read the above comment, and agreed wholeheartedly with this quote in particular: "It is not a question of whether we should homeschool, or public school our educations but what meets their needs at the time."
I currently have one child flourishing in a local public school because it is the *best* environment and educational choice for him at this time. He has also attended public homeschool programs, a private school, and we have homeschooled privately over the course of his 11 years of education so far.
We have always looked for the best choice for our children, given their unique mix of needs, year by year. Currently my three younger children are homeschooling through a private school that provides class days, field trips, parental support/learning sessions, and annual testing. We have also participated in public independent study programs for many years. We refer to this as "cafeteria style" schooling - they can choose what is best from a menu of options, thanks to a political system that provides an open choice educational environment. My children are extremely social and have social interaction 7 days a week, therefore the educational model tailored to their levels has served us well.
The notion that homeschool families lack educational support is silly. Educational support available to homeschooling parents today is tremendous. Private enterprises and public ISPs, internet support groups and resources, and face to face support groups provide parents virtually instant access to information they need to address any problem or education decision. By becoming far more actively involved in their children's educational decisions than can possibly be achieved in a traditional public school environment, and by involving their children in educational choices (for example, it is my oldest son's choice to attend public high school, and so he is invested in his success there, vs. being forced to attend), parents taking advantage of educational choice in this country are raising children who are participating in their own educational process. This is far from placing our children at a disadvantage.
Public schools are critical to our democracy. Homeschooling is clearly not for everyone, or for every child at every stage of their educational years, and some families who may wish to homeschool cannot due to economic or other barriers. Public education is the safety net for society when parents cannot or do not wish to take on more responsibility. While public education has many problems, history has shown that this safety net is essential to democratic society; without it, even larger segments of society become disenfranchised and disadvantaged from lack of education.
Homeschooled children, however, are not in the category of disenfranchised that created the need for public schools. We are not putting our children at a disadvantage by not availing ourselves of this public service, and deciding to provide an individualized education for our children.
The problems facing public schools will not be fixed by a handful of homeschool parents being forced to rejoin the system. I put a very successful professional career as a CPA on hold to homeschool my children, so clearly I see this to be in their best interests at this time. I hope in the future to be a part of any solution to improve public education, when to contribute would not require me to sacrifice the quality of my children's education.
- julieb September 16, 2008 9:04AM
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As a homeschooling parent, I have had much more support flowing from friends, family, and the greater community than I did at public school.
At public school, it was so difficult to feel support from teachers or the greater system. Even when the teachers were sympathetic, they were either restricted by regulation or overwhelmed by large class sizes.
With homeschooling, there's so much support, the tough part is knowing which resources to choose!
- nlj September 17, 2008 3:02PM
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In my experience, all kinds of policies and laws can be passed with the intent of making educators accountable but they do no good because they are not enforcable. Anyone with a special needs child who has experience "due process" knows what I'm talking about.
- rose September 15, 2008 1:21PM
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This argument is based on the idea that government knows what's best for my children more than I do. I don't buy it.
Children are just a number in mass public education. They're expected to fit neat and tidy little boxes instead of being celebrated for their vast differences in abilities and the ways that they learn.
Public schools are only accountable to an outdated way of "education" where children become sheep who sit at desks and listen to the whims of teachers all day long.
Homeschooling provides opportunity for hands-on learning, interest-based learning, and building on strengths instead of the public school model of constant tweaking of weaknesses with a drive for impossible perfection.
At homeschool, children are celebrated for their individuality. My son has said for years he wants to be a robotics engineer and an inventor. But by public school standards, he wasn't good enough and didn't have the opportunity to study those fields. At homeschool, he has every opportunity.
My daughter is bad at math at public schools, but is learning it much more rapidly at home. She has rote memory difficulties, which were never addressed in mass education, but we can work one-on-one with her at home.
Accountability just does NOT happen at public schools.
- nlj September 17, 2008 2:54PM
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She was told he would never make it in the school world.Must have been a public school teacher.
- purelabor September 25, 2008 10:19PM
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Marty Hittleman writes: "The CFT supports the right of parents to follow their best judgment in the supremely important task of seeking education for their children. But we also know that our public schools need involved parents to help them work properly. We would prefer that highly motivated parents keep their kids in public school rather than place them in private schools or home school them. We need all of the community engaged so that we can assure all students receive a high quality, research- and standards-based education."
I can see how this argument works from a teacher's point of view, however, as a parent, it just doesn't work. We don't have the opportunity to "do it all over" if we make a mistake with our children's education. I cannot put my children's education at risk by putting them in the failing public schools in my area just so that I can give my time to try to make a difference in public schools.
From what I've heard from parents in my community, their input in our public schools is limited to the peripheries, their skills are not utilized to the fullest. In my homeschool, my skills are utilized to their fullest and my children, plus those I interact with, benefit.
- Shez September 17, 2008 5:27PM
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I can't even think to a level that I can't do my job so the people I work for need to help. When I went to PS my parents did't have time to help in school. Now the teachers are so trained that they are stupid. My daughter in PS 1st grade was taking home packets every week that took an average of 8 hours a week to complete. We spent all her free time working on school work. What are they doing all day in school? If they can't teach in an entire day then they need to be replaced. That is what we did. If I have to spend that much time teaching her anyway, I might as well do it all myself.
- purelabor September 25, 2008 11:12PM
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Mob rule gets proved all the time. We like to think we have a stable society but fear is a powerful motivator. Unfortunately, it leads to tighter security and loss of freedom. Consider the tactics of most homeschool naysayers. Most of their arguments are based on common fears with conspiracy and intolerance heading the list. Get everyone to think we're unstable bible thumpers ready to overthrow basic constitutional rights and then maybe someone in Congress will decide that we need more oversight. Or better yet, they take our rights away and force us to put our children into public school. Because if homeschoolers rights are gone, private and charter schools are going to go next. This happens all the time, it happens now in Germany, it happened in Afghanistan, and it can happen here if people allow their rights to be taken away so that the government can keep them "safe" from those who are different. The problem with independence is it assumes that we are responsible enough to stay independent, and not trade our freedom for security. It's the difference between being an adult and being a child. The adult world is a scary place. Children like to be protected.
It would be nice to have some acceptance in what we do, but until homeschooling becomes a more common choice (I would say at least 30% of the populatiion) it will always be feared by the collective consciousness (or unconciousness) of our society. Can you see teachers' unions letting it go that far? Because I can't. Our schools go into a frenzy if we don't want to give them a nice large raise in taxes every year. They always threaten to cut back services. How about cutting back hefty pensions and overtime rates for maintenance and administrative staff? It always comes back to money, doesn't it?
- jpl September 19, 2008 12:07PM
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What happens when the student is not up to sunff in the public system? Answer: Not a thing. The teacher is not fired no matter how many students fail due to lack of teacher skills. However, If a home school student fails then they live at home for many years. So, the home school parents have a vested interest in making the grade. What do the Public school teachers get for dropping the ball? Nothing.
- purelabor September 25, 2008 10:17PM
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It was our government, through the CIA and the University of Nebraska, that designed textbooks with the INTENT on making the little Afghan Muslim children into violent religious fanatics. These textbooks taught them to count with pictures of guns and tanks.
And I am supposed to trust curriculum they design? What is their agenda for my child?
Once I caught a history text book in what I considered to be a bigoted, and thus immoral, statement. (The statement was that the people of India never progressed because of their pagan religion.)
We threw it away.
- skullaria January 22, 2009 6:09AM
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Since I made the decision to homeschool, I have received pressure to go back to public schools. Studies show that homeschooled children perform better academically and socially than most public schooled children. So why, when there is so much research proving the positive impact that homeschooling has on our children, is the idea of homeschooling met with so much resistance? The problem is that, as much as we would like to think that we are a forward thinking society living in a culture that allows us to have free thinking, it just isn’t so. We have been molded, from the time we were born, into thinking that the way we do things, the way we live is the “right” way. We are afraid to think that it might not be the best way. If we dare to think about it, we would have to take time away from our very busy schedules to think about how we would make it work. People are so settled in their ways that they can’t even imagine how to change. What would you have to give up to “do” school differently for your children? Many people reason that they went through public schools and turned out fine. I challenge those people to think about a few things. First, is it okay to settle for “fine”? So, you are living life day to day and functioning in our society. Are you happy? Are you living with plenty of financial reserves? Are you proud of who you are and how you treat others? Are you really living a full and rewarding life? My guess is that the majority of people would not answer these questions affirmatively. I haven’t looked up the statistics, but I have heard that the majority of Americans are deeply in debt and that sales of anti-depressant medications have never been higher. You just have to turn on the TV to hear about the credit crisis and the horrible things that people do to each other. The second thing I want you to think about is that the schools are changing with our society and they are different than when you grew up. I was completely horrified the first time my tiny kindergartner came home in tears because they had an “intruder drill”. In case you aren’t familiar with this kind of drill, all children are instructed to get under their desks and the lights are turned out and all of the doors are locked.The children are told that this is practice in case an intruder enters the school.It doesn't take an expert or research to tell me that this is not the kind of environment I want my child to be in. In addition to these drills and lock downs, my children have experienced humiliation from other students and (even) teachers that they never should have had to experience. I allowed this to continue for years because like so many others, I just didn’t think there was any other way.I mistakenly allowed myself to believe that it was okay because that is how our government set it up and how our society lives. Since I have allowed myself to think differently, I can see it so clearly and I am just amused (and at the same time, horrified) by the negative reactions I have experienced toward homeschooling. We are talking about our most precious children and a simple little thing like teaching them. Why is that so odd to so many? Why are so many horrified by it? Why do so many people allow themselves to be molded by a system without questioning it? I think it is because that same system has taught us how to be helpless. They have dictated what we will learn and when and how. That system has done all of our thinking for us – and hasn’t taught us how to think for ourselves. We just go along with the system because we don’t know how to do it differently, how to do it on our own, and it hasn’t given us “permission”. Individuality is not praised and rewarded. The cycle was set in motion a few hundred years ago with the "compulsory education system" and it has continued. This inability to see things differently is actually very dangerous. As I mentioned, this is just a little bitty issue like education. But…is the underlying idea really that much different than a more extreme example. Images of the Jewish concentration camps are what come to my mind. How was Hitler able to get so many to carry out his duties? Why weren’t they able to think for themselves? Now, I admit this is an extreme example…but it started somewhere. Twenty years ago, did you really ever imagine that your children would be going to a public school system where they had to have intruder drills or metal detectors? How did you come to the point of thinking that it is acceptable? If we continue with this same system, what will you consider to be the norm in 20 years from today? And who is currently being held accountable for the worsening state of the PS system?
- mbryn September 26, 2008 5:22PM
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I think it would be useful for school districts to offer end-of-level testing to home educated students. This would add an opportunity for transparency and accountability. I have attempted to have my children participate in this testing but have been refused. I suspect that the reason school districts do not provide this service (even when I have offered to reimburse the district for expenses) is that there is a fear that the home educated students would out-perform the conventionally educated students.
- acitizen March 30, 2009 8:39AM
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"Society does not have a right to inspect a family's eating habits, or personal philosophy, or other aspects of child-rearing that may, in fact, impact society down the road. It has to trust the parents to act in their children's best interests until there is proof that the parents are acting abusively."
Thank you for taking that very principled approach to the question. This is a free country; parents are responsible for the education of their children, but the government has no right to force them to prove that they are not guilty of neglecting it. The government must have due cause to bring such a charge against the parents, and then must prove its case in court. Assuming guilt, and forcing parents to jump through hoops to prove their innocence stands the law on its head.
- Ardsgaine September 17, 2008 6:38PM
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I read a very good book recently and I recommend it.
AMERICA TO PRAY? OR NOT TO PRAY? by David Barton Quote:
On June 25, 1962 , The Supreme Court first struck down school prayer by prohibiting students from using this simple invocation:" ALMIGHTY GOD, WE ACKNOWLEDGE OUR DEPENDENCE UPON THEE, AND BEG THY BLESSING UPON US, OUR PARENTS, OUR TEACHER, AND OUR COUNTRY." Following this case, the Court began methodically expelling other religious principles; the effect have been evident. Teen pregnancies skyrocketed, Divorce has become all to common place, SAT scores have fallen drastically, Violent crime is sweeping like the black plague epidemic through our society . Indeed this book proves that since the Supreme Courts decision our country is worse off and the statistic are in this book from reliable and documentable sources to back it up. Maybe America we should throw off these activist judges and put back prayer in the school systems. I guarantee your jaws will drop no matter your faith or no faith at all after reading this most excellent book.
- Hope7 July 1, 2009 7:33PM
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Do you really want your children to learn social skills from other children? With very little adult supervision? Do you facilitate appropriate social skills between siblings at home? Who do you think is setting the standards for appropriate social skills on the playground?
- rose September 15, 2008 1:32PM
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I do not believe socialization is taught in a classroom. Socialization is mainly taught by parents and this links back to the parental involvement argument. They are of huge importance in teaching a child proper socialization skills.
I've found that homeschooling has more opprotunity to socialize than school has. Sitting at a desk does not equal socialization. Getting together with other homeschooling families, having group activities, field trips, organize sports leagues, city programs all socialize our children.
Homeschooled children do not spend 7 hours a day in a classroom, they're active and out and about, which frankly is more productive in my opinion.
- PamalaLauren September 16, 2008 9:33AM
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My son was bullied on an almost daily basis at his public elementary school. He had sand thrown in his face.
My daughter had horrible things said to her by little boys.
This is not socialization, it's anti-social behavior. Is there any wonder why violence has risen in public schools?
The GOOD NEWS is that my kids now have the opportunity to have positive socialization experiences with a variety of people! My son takes Tae Kwon Do and my daughter is on a soccer team. They both attend a homeschool group once a week.
Mostly, I focus on how they socialize with each other and with me and my husband. Because unlike those kids at public school, we're together for a lifetime!
- nlj September 17, 2008 2:57PM
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I'm sorry to hear about your children's public school experience. However, do you really want the exact opposite, a world in which they will never experience bad elements, negativity, hardship? Do you really think you would be as strong as you are today without encountering resistance?
All these experiences, good and bad, are absolutely vital. They must be had. The trick is to frame them into a perspective in which the child can learn from it, take the good, leave the bad. It is all part of the process. Removing your child from that process is uncharted waters. It may turn out great, but is it worth risking a lifetime of psychological stress?
- sonofwill September 17, 2008 5:26PM
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We did try framing the situation. We took him to counseling, and put him in Tae Kwon Do. But without support from the school to put an end to the bullying, it interfered with his schooling. Instead of doing his work, he was managing his bullies. My son is twice exceptional (gifted + l.d.), has a speech impediment and is small for his age. He is often the smallest kid in the class. He looks 2 grades younger than he is.
The same happened with my daughter. She was teased all the time because of her friendship with a boy. They constantly harrassed her about having a boyfriend. She was in fourth grade at the time. The teacher tried to intervene, but the kids kept it up. This happened in her GIFTED class!
These situations put them in a position where they grow to believe that they have to remain in a bullying situation. But they don't. Adults have the power to walk away. But in school, you must remain in that position. You can't just get up and walk out of class without being punished!
I've taught my son a great lesson. Don't just sit there and leave yourself in a horrible situation.
Homeschool isn't perfect. We have plenty of conflict to deal with! But that conflict is more age appropriate. Most of the conflict is sibling rivalry - much of which comes from the fact that my daughter "did school" better than her brother. Now, I'm there when the conflict starts. I teach them how to treat each other properly. When they act up, I have them recreate the situation and conversation so they can learn better communication methods.
When they face conflict outside the home, we work on it together.
My son would live with a lifetime of psychological stress if I let him be subject to those bullies. He would believe he has to be a doormat to society. But he doesn't. His confidence has grown leaps and bounds. And he's LEARNING!
- nlj September 17, 2008 5:48PM
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You asked if I would be as strong today without the hardships I faced in school. The answer is no. I remember embarrassing childhood experiences that have greatly affected my present-day relationships. I have made so many decisions based out of fear, trying to avoid rejection that has plagued me (I was a shy, not-so-popular kid).
I'm making great strides. But I didn't handle the situations I faced in school very well at all.
I am working SO HARD every day to not pass that on to my kids. Even today, I realized I made a comment that was based on my insecurity about something my son did out in public - but was really no problem at all. I was worried what others think of us. Crazy.
Why do people get so worked up about 10 year high school reunions and impressing people they went to school with so long ago? Because it is so difficult to shake that need for acceptance and fear of rejection.
And I also struggle with following my dreams versus being realistic. I doubt myself so much because my education was only partially interest-based and did not build on my strengths. Instead, it exposed my weaknesses. 13 years of that is difficult to shed.
- nlj September 17, 2008 5:56PM
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Very well said.
Public schools are great for enforcing conformity, lopping off the tall poppies, exploiting insecurities, and crushing fragile egos. If that is socialization, I think my children can do without it.
- Ardsgaine September 17, 2008 7:31PM
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"However, do you really want the exact opposite, a world in which they will never experience bad elements, negativity, hardship? Do you really think you would be as strong as you are today without encountering resistance?"
This world that you speak of does not exist. There is no such world where people live without bad elements, negativity, hardship or suffering. In real life, a person has choices as to handling a certain situation. In school, an artificial setting, there is little escape from dealing with these things that you mention. I think strength has nothing to do with emerging from adversity and bullies. I think survivorship does. No longer being the victim allows a person to be a survivor. This has little to do with strength and everything to do with life giving you lemons and finding a way to make "lemonade." I think the psychological stress that you are talking about is a huge symptom that is happening now in our society that has been mostly public schooled.
- karribest September 17, 2008 7:57PM
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Many of the things that happen on the school yard would be crimes in the real world. If anyone pushed me down and stomped on my hand they would be taking a ride to jail. That is how you handle those experiences. And the "lifetime of psychological stress" is caused by uncaring teachers that turn their back on the kids causing the problems.
- purelabor September 25, 2008 10:45PM
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Although I did have some really mean and abusive teachers when I was a kid, it's important to not blame the problems of school bullying on teachers. My son had some great teachers who were very happy and dedicated and they seemed to really love the kids, but school still didn't work for us.
The whole set up of school--how and why compulsory school started in the first place is where the problem lies.
Compulsory school was started to produce industrious workers and also to cleave the American Indian children from their families as a way to destroy their culture--a simplification for sure, but that's the gist. It was also invented in a time where kids were seen and not heard and not respected. This system of schooling is what we should dispel. We should NOT replace it with only homeschooling--not every family wants to---and of course they shouldn't have to, but we should seriously reform school as it is now.
- juillet September 27, 2008 2:36PM
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However, who watches the play ground where most assaults happen in the schools? In my daughter's school it was the teachers. Why are they out there if not to check violence.
You are right schools were created to make the rich richer. I don't think everyone should home school. It is rewarding for those of us who make that choice. Schools could be run properly, we just have to get rid of trained teachers and go back to teachers that care about the kids. Teacher collages teach how to control and destroy a child's drive.
At least, remember that children have rights. Like the right not to be hurt at school. Children can't disagree with the teacher even when they catch them in a lie. This I saw for my self. It was one of the reasons we home school. I feel sorry for the kids that are forced to go to school.
really sorry that there parents don't care enough to live a lifestyle that allows that. Toys for adults cost too much for one income.
- purelabor September 27, 2008 7:42PM
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I bounced around schools as a kid a lot. I came across students in public schools, private schools, and home schooling. Kids homeschooled their whole lives were far less extroverted. It is common for parents to think they foster social skills. However this can only be done by exposure to as wide a variety as possible of people, personalities, dispositions, attitudes, etc etc.
Public schools are the best. Hands down. However, not all districts have quality public schools, which is one of our nation's biggest problems. Not all children will thrive under the same formula obviously, but public schools provide the easiest chance for a large exposure to different types of people.
Even if homeschooled children socialize with other homeschooled children, that does not compare. The fact is, 99%+ of students are in public schools. Think about it; when you finally release your homeschooled child into the wild, their lack of exposure relative to the vast majority of their peers will make them stand out, feel isolated, turn to drugs, or otherwise develop psychological disorders.
Private schools have the same effect. They are indeed social networks, but mostly isolated from the public background. There are psycho-social borders to be crossed when leaving a private school, and the transition is very stressful.
There are no studies done for this, but from my experience, home-schooled and private-schooled children have a greater tendency to develop psychological disorders. What good is an education if you can't use it properly?
- sonofwill September 17, 2008 4:09PM
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If homeschool kids are "released into the wild" and have such horrible experiences with their public school peers, then what you're telling me is that the public schools teach kids to be intolerant and unaccepting of people that are different than them. You're telling me that public school kids learn to have an air of superiority about them. You're telling me that kids in public schools have the inability to socialize with people who are different from them.
As for exposure to drugs, if public schools are so full of drugs, that is yet another sign that public schools are a crap place for kids! If public schools are truly educating, why are these kids doing drugs?
You praise extroversion but what is wrong with being an introvert? I was in public school most of my life (with a stint in private school). I'm still an introvert. I will always be an introvert. I LOVE being an introvert.
The difference in the quality of schools doesn't seem to have much of an effect on the quality of socialization. I hear the same horror stories about what those kids are doing when they are "socializing" in the next county over, which has some of the highest scores in the state.
You keep saying "my experience" but offer no examples. You provide no basis for your statement that your experience is that homeschooling children have psychological disorders.
The problem with doing such a study on psychological disorders is the age old question of the chicken and the egg. Plus, who do you test? Many kids with special needs have comorbid psychological disorders. Since public schools are very difficult places for kids with special needs, many choose to homeschool. This could inflate the number of homeschool kids with psychological disorders, but the cause is not the homeschooling itself.
Plus, with what are you assessing a person's potential for psychological disorder? Your statement about extroversion suggests that a shy or introverted kid could have potential to be classified as having a psychological disorder when really they're just existing in their given personality.
- nlj September 17, 2008 7:07PM
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I never mentioned exposure to drugs in public schools. I never said public school kids would ostracize others. Even if I had made those points, which I didn't, that is a case for cleaning up public schools. I was referring to the psychological impact.
Yes, being an introvert can be considered a mild psychological disorder. In many cases, people who are shy or introverted WISH they were not. Perhaps you misunderstand what I mean by psychological disorder. The introverts I have met, myself included, behave so mainly due to low self esteem. I would not say feeling bad about oneself is a natural state of mind.
I explicitly said that there were no studies regarding the occurrence of psychological disorders. However a larger percentage of my friends from private schools have sought therapy or pharmaceuticals or experimented with drugs, as opposed to my friends from public schools. That is just the way it is in my experience, I am sure it is different for others. Please read my comments more thoroughly before swinging your axe! You probably misconstrued 80% of what I said.
- sonofwill September 17, 2008 9:37PM
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You my dear,
Have lead a VERY sheltered life if this is a true statement 'However a larger percentage of my friends from private schools have sought therapy or pharmaceuticals or experimented with drugs, as opposed to my friends from public schools.'
You really DON'T know what's going on in public schools if you think this is a correct statement.
- Laughing at you September 18, 2008 8:10AM
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This is a public forum, not a place for juvenile remarks. Even more ironic, this is a debate about education, and here is a response clearly from somebody deeply lacking in it! Nobody wants to hear you spew hate, especially when I was giving a personal account of my experiences. Very low of you to embarrass yourself in such a fashion.
Anyways, as I said, it is different in others' experiences. "you my dear have lead a very sheltered life". That is the most ludicrous statement that I have read on this website, to date! I commented here specifically because my larger-than-normal personal experiences with the school system give me a better ability to give a reasonable response to a question like this than say, somebody such as yourself!
If you have something to add to the discussion, feel free. But until that point, try to think a bit more before you type.
- sonofwill September 18, 2008 12:17PM
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You were speaking of personal experience.
My personal experience has been the only difference between public and private schools were the cost of the 'drugs' and/or 'therapy'. Here's an article to read: http://www.kcbd.com/Global/story.asp?S=7299330
There's many more articles in many more areas. It's a National problem. Would you like a few more?
- Laughing at you September 18, 2008 2:04PM
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Studies have been done and books have been written on former homeschoolers who are now adults, including _After Homeschool: Fifteen Homeschoolers Out in the Real World_ http://www.amazon.com/After-Homeschool-Fifteen-Homeschoolers-Parents/dp/1931199302 They all show that homeschoolers tend to be better prepared for the adult world than public school children, because homeschoolers are more used to interacting with adults than public school children are.
Speaking as an introvert who graduated from a top public high school, I found the problems I had with low self esteem had to do with the fact that I went to public school, not because I was an introvert. The public school environment was not conducive to introverts thriving. Once I left the artificial environment of high school I bloomed. Homeschooled teens that I know have much more self-confidence than any public school teen I've ever met. This is especially true of the introverts, who have never been forced into an environment that does not respect their worldview.
- Lioness September 18, 2008 10:55AM
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In fact, the evidence shows that homeschooled kids are better off. I don't know when or where you met homeschooled kids, but a far greater chunk of society homeschools today than used to. It isn't an isolating thing. The kids I know who were homeschooled but then transitioned into public school are doing fabulously well: they have a lot of self-confidence, they aren't nearly as subject to peer pressure, they're fitting in well and plenty extroverted. The homeschooled kids who have gone on to college do better; they're not finally out from under the thumb of an oppressive system and tempted to go hog wild drinking, etc. Homeschooled kids have much more maturity.
I have been astounded at the crummy behavior I've seen from public schooled kids. If "extroverted" means pushing other kids aside to get at the museum exhibit, water fountain, whatever, then yes, public school kids are more extroverted. But the homeschooled kids are actually at the museum to see the stuff and to learn, not to be let out of their cages for a few minutes. They're respectful to the other kids and to the adult staff. I have had museum docents chase me into the parking lot to comment on what a pleasure it was to have my group of homeschooled kids visiting. They like having kids who aren't running amok or calling them nasty names if they ask the kids to stop doing something.
Granted, my kids don't have a lot of experience getting shoved into lockers, kicked, or having their persons or personal property disrespected. They aren't street savvy -- yet. But they're not dumb and would probably figure out pretty quickly, should the need arise, what new skills are needed for surviving in a hostile environment. I am trying my darnedest to teach them well enough so that they will be able to avoid those environments if they want to. I went to grad school on the south side of Chicago, and as a suburban kid , I was still able to figure it out, even though I hadn't interacted with that environment previously.
- HomeSchool Association of California September 17, 2008 7:22PM
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"they're not finally out from under the thumb of an oppressive system and tempted to go hog wild drinking, etc."
I've seen the exact opposite of this with multiple homeschoolers. I knew one girl who was homeschooled and then joined the Army and went "hog wild" and ended up pregnant within 6 months. She wasn't ready for the world she found herself in.
- reckoner September 22, 2008 2:39PM
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I’m a 32 yr old man and for 15 or more of my years I know I wasn’t alone in having an unpleasant homeschooled childhood. Me and my sister were homeschooled our whole lives “by” our single mom. Who, was gone most of the time at work leaving us to read and study on our own and who would get too frustrated with us when we needed her to explain something to us. I went on to get a degree in computer information systems from the local 2yr community college. But I was so socially retarded, from being kept in an 18 by 70 foot trailer the whole of my formative years, that I would not engage people but wait for them to engage me. And freak when they did. Because of this I didn’t have my first girlfriend until I was 20, see was 16 and had this thing about talking to the strangest guy in the room.
On the subject of crazy eccentrics, my currant girlfriend is 19 and was homeschooled her whole life as well as her little sister and brother. I thought for the past two years that this family was kind of on the eccentric hippy side, but I now know it goes way beyond that. They really believe that things like Kinesiology a.k. Muscle Testing, Homeopathy, Reflexology, Iridology, Naturopathy, and a bizarre form of therapy called the Backman Emotional Technique are really real sciences.
- chris1701 February 5, 2009 1:50PM
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"There are no studies done for this, but from my experience, home-schooled and private-schooled children have a greater tendency to develop psychological disorders. What good is an education if you can't use it properly?"
Wow! I'd say the opposite is true. I see being institutionalized for 12+ years (public forced schooling) as being emotionally damaging. Homeschooled children not only get to socialize with many children, but they also socialize very well with adults too. Honestly, if you really had experience with homeschooled children, you would know this.
- Iknowbetter September 18, 2008 9:11PM
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Regarding these quotes on the socialization issue:
*************
"...public schools provide the easiest chance for a large exposure to different types of people."
"..this can only be done by exposure to as wide a variety as possible of people, personalities, dispositions, attitudes, etc etc."
*************
Public schools don't qualify as "variety"--it is only ONE way of interacting with many people. This is not at all the same as interacting in a variety of social situations.
Homeschooling provides many different social situations that can be handled any variety of ways each directly pertaining to the situation at hand with the support of a parent nearby.
************
"What good is an education if you can't use it properly?"
"...when you finally release your homeschooled child into the wild, their lack of exposure relative to the vast majority of their peers will make them stand out, feel isolated, turn to drugs, or otherwise develop psychological disorders."
*************
It always seems to be the public school advocates who say things like "releasing into the wild" and "going out into the real world".
My homeschooled kid IS in the real world. Right now. At the age of 9, doing all sorts of things with me--getting groceries, going to the city offices doing errands pertaining to taxes or permits, he's with me collecting seeds from the garden, hanging out with his 89 yr old grampa, being involved in 4H projects, all sorts of things. This doesn't even include the park days and playdates and museum trips, libraries or whatever we want to do that day. My child isn't cloistered in an artificial social set-up with no true responsibilities. His whole life pertains to things/events/people he can connect as to why they are important and fun and useful in his life.
This is the social education that I want for my child--one where he comes by it honestly. He won't have to be "released into the wild" with no experience in the "grown up world". For one thing--school does nothing to prepare a child for the "grown up world".
- juillet September 20, 2008 9:19AM
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Research has shown that government-run schools are actually MORE segregated than private schools. Around 40% of African-American children in the U.S. attend government-run schools that are >90% African-American. The percentage of African-American students here in CA who attend a highly segregated school is a whopping 87%!
Only 14% of white students attend a government-run school where at least three different races make up at least one-tenth each of the student population (for example, a school that's 80% white, 10% African-American, and 10% Asian would qualify).
I was very UN-prepared by the government-run school I attended for interacting with individuals with a different background. "Diversity" at my school consisted of 2 African-Americans, 2 Mormons, and 1 Jew, all of whom came from affluent families where both parents were highly educated white-collar professionals. Everybody else was either a WASP or a Catholic of European descent, again from affluent families.
My own kids are exposed to FAR more diversity in our local homeschooling community. I didn't encounter a single Latino/a, Asian, Arab, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, or Bah'ai during my K-12 schooling- but my kids have through homeschooling.
- Crimson Wife September 23, 2008 7:20PM
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My son that was home schooled and then graduated from SD State has a jobs that only pays about 10 times what the average PS student earns. And none of our old home school group is into drugs. We keep in touch with them all. Some didn't go to collage but all are well adjusted and doing good. And he is 30yrs old now. Only those that are not taught to stay away from the dopers and losers, become dopers and losers.
- purelabor September 25, 2008 10:56PM
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Here: “Kids homeschooled their whole lives were far less extroverted,” you have a non sequitur. So what if they were home-schooled? Did that cause it? I don’t think so. Personality is mostly genetic and innate. One’s environment can influence it but cannot change it drastically. Introverted people tend to have more introverted than extraverted kids, who, with how wild and undisciplined public schools are these days, cannot thrive in them, and so many of these parents home-school their kids so the kids can have an environment conducive to learning. This isn’t true in every case, obviously, just a reasonable general conjecture.
Fostering social skills is teaching children proper behavior, such as manners, taking turns, and being respectful to elders. This is the natural job of parents. It is also the job of parents to protect their children. Children should not be exposed to the widest variety possible of people. If that were true, it would be a good idea to let them associate with vagrants, criminals, and the anti-social. Why not have field trips to prisons? Children should not learn social skills from whatever other children happen to be around or in the school. That is why I will not let my daughter play with the next-door children. They go around with dirty faces and clothes, strew trash around their yard, hang out of upstairs windows, play with gas cans, the 1½-year-old was allowed to roam the neighborhood alone or with a 4-year-old sister, and when their mother tells them to do something (usually more like whines), they laugh and run away, while she does nothing. This is the common sort of person my innocent daughter would be forced to interact with daily if I sent her to the city school. Home-schooled children socialize with other respectable children that their parents approve of, such as sports teammates, and with people of all ages with similar interests. They don’t develop the inability to associate with people of other ages, as public-school students usually do. When they encounter others, they act in a mature and assertive fashion.
Public schools are the best? Do you have evidence? Since the beginning of compulsory education, schools have declined, since the beginning of progressive education, quite steeply. See the book, The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America for reference. Here are some real tests to show how much better they used to be: http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/quizzes/highschool_test.cfm , http://records.viu.ca/homeroom/Content/Lessons/compexam.htm , http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb//ottawa/exam.html , http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/2004/july04/1910.html , http://www.kansasheritage.org/orsh/library/final_exam.html , http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/where/1901.html . My private elementary school placed me in a reading class four grades too easy. If public schools were better than private, I would have been allowed to take the appropriate reading class when I transferred to the local public school; instead, I was placed at an even lower level, in a class I had just completed perfectly. If they were best, I could send my daughter, 3½, off to a public nursery school and be confident she’d get to continue practicing 1st-grade arithmetic and reading and that she would continue to be read things like Tennyson and ancient history. She’s doing all this at home and loves every bit of it. She’s being classically educated, and she wants to attend Oxford and become a mathematician. The public schools would not maintain this possibility. She would be placed in a kindergarten class being taught letters and numbers, when she learned those by herself as a baby. Problems like this never improve, just get exponentially worse, as the learning potential of a gifted student moves faster than that of an average student, while the curriculum moves at the pace of the below-average students. Her mind would utterly stagnate and atrophy.
When you say “leaving a private school,” do you mean “…for the day” or “…permanently?” My private school was not isolated in any way, and the only problem I ever had with leaving it was the problem the PUBLIC school gave me in class placement.
I think you are implying introverts are mentally unbalanced. They are no more so than extraverts. Am I, an introvert, schizoid? Well are you, obviously an extravert, histrionic? Of course not. Introverts are, on average, smarter than extraverts, and tend to make better scientists and artists, but extraverts are, on average, more socially adept, and tend to make better leaders and actors. And everybody is somewhere on a scale from total introversion to total extraversion. Where you are on it just means generally how much “alone time” and “social time” you need. All places on it are normal; even a complete introvert, like me, needs some companionship and social interaction, and even a complete extravert needs some time alone.
- GretaHoostal March 13, 2009 2:40PM
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Actually, it's proven that environment affects a person just as much, if not more so, than genetics.
There ARE field trips to prisons.
And if you know that a 1.5 year old roams around alone you're just as guilty for you know and do nothing.
Not that I believe you anyway....
- SocialistBetty March 16, 2009 8:44AM
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Has a home schooling dad, I take my daughter everywhere I go. She meets and interacts with my customers as I repair their computers. She knows every nurse that my wife works with and they all love her. How many PS kids can say they have ridden on a firetruck, police car{not in the back seat}, sailed on a sailing ship and met Joan Embery from the San Diego Zoo? She is introduced to at least one new person everyday.
And everyone that she meets says what a respectful young lady she is.
- purelabor September 25, 2008 10:39PM
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Hmmm...my son has experienced the daily frustration of having to deal with the mis-behavior of other students in public school as well. The stress that he dealt with was excessive and unnecessary. Whether or not you believe that students should have to deal with this type of behavior to prepare them for the "real world" (and I don't think they should) - it is impossible to ignore the fact that something has gone wrong with the socialization in public schools. Children in public school are not only dealing with bullies inside the school, but are also being subjected to things like intruder drills and lockdowns due to "threats" in the area. These are necessary because of the type of behavior that is being tolerated in the public schools and are graduating this kind of behavior into our society. When my little kindergartner came home in tears because of the intruder drill which required her to hide under her desk in case a stranger came to get her...I knew that public school was not the ideal learning environment for her.
- mbryn September 26, 2008 3:39PM
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While we are "academic" homeschoolers (all my kids perform above grade level and are learning both Greek and Latin, among other things) we have plenty of time to be with other people. My kids play with schooled friends when school is out, go to dance classes, bell choir, Sunday School and youth group, we go to the museum and parks with our co-op, and they get to be involved in the day to day of shopping. My older two )11 and 9) volunteer at our church in ( respectively ) the pre school and the MOPS toddler room.
Given how often kids are told in school that they need to stop talking, I think my kids get as much social time as school kids.
- gojirama December 8, 2008 1:48PM
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Are Homeschooled Kids at a Disadvantage?
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Heroic
I applaud any parent that has the courage to home school. I cannot imagine having the time and ability to undertake such a task. I imagine home schooled children learn a great deal more due to the individual attention. However, they may miss out on the 'school of hard knocks' lessons we all endured growing up. I don't know that I'm better off now because of those lessons. Given a choice, I certainly would have skipped a lot of them.
- Oasthad September 15, 2008 11:33AM
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Would not go back anytime soon
The reasons I took my kids out of school are not the reasons I am still homeschooling. It was going to be a one year "fix" until we moved. We are now on our third year. I can say I don't see them going back to "Public" school. Each of them are at different levels and would be lost or bord at school. I don't what that to happen. One is two grade above grade level and another that is 1 grade below and then one that is on grade level. I also like that I can pick their books that work for them. That means I need to learn how to teach more than one way. but it is worth it.
I think the teachers are getting upset because they see how well these homeschool kids are doing on their tests. It may be making the "Public" schools look bad.
- tbk September 16, 2008 5:57AM
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a question
how are homeschooled kids taught the more advanced subjects like calculus or physics?
- reckoner
September 16, 2008 3:19PM
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re:question
"how are homeschooled kids taught the more advanced subjects like calculus or physics?"
Lots of ways! Some take jr. college classes, if they choose, some buy a book and read and learn the material, and like many in public schools, some kids choose not to take these classes. One can't be good at everything or be an expert in every subject. So many of these classes aren't available to most students in public schools anyway. As homeschoolers, we at least know how to find the answers and help our kids get the information that they need or want.
- karribest
September 16, 2008 3:29PM
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let me see if I understand
they either don't learn it (which you seem to justify heavily) or they go to a community college to learn it?
- reckoner
September 17, 2008 8:57AM
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They do learn it
Many homeschoolers learn advanced subjects. And just because a student is in public school taking those classes doesn't mean they learn the material. That's why so many tutoring businesses are out there!!!
Homeschoolers have the advantage of learning those subjects in a way that makes sense with the way they learn. They can take a class, have independent study, a virtual course online, or buy a textbook. Homeschooling families are very resourceful.
But I do think it's a bit disingenuous to imply that these so-called "advanced" topics are crucial. I was a grade ahead in math in the public schools when I was a kid, but I don't use trigonometry in my daily life.
Education should and can be tailored to the talents, interests, skills, and abilities of each individual student. Public education is mass education. Homeschool education is individualized.
- nlj September 17, 2008 2:43PM
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surprised
i'm surprised the tone I keep hearing is that kids don't need to learn advanced subjects.
"Education should and can be tailored to the talents, interests, skills, and abilities of each individual student. Public education is mass education."
I had good teachers that did tailor lessons for students or gave them one on one help. This is harder when class sizes are large, but this only means we should make them smaller. Do you not send your children to college because it's "mass education"?
- reckoner
September 18, 2008 8:58AM
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It depends on the teen's interests.
I went to an A-level high school and even there not everyone was required to learn calculus and physics. But it's not too hard to find someone who will tutor those subjects if the student is interested. My husband tutors in calculus, physics, chemistry, trigonometry, biology, and computer science to both homeschoooled and public schooled students. He finds the homeschoolers much easier to teach because they have a much better foundation to learn from. The local schools tend to skimp badly on the fundamentals students need to learn before they reach high school
- Lioness September 18, 2008 10:33AM
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You misunderstand
They are not saying children don't need to take the hard subjects, but they are saying that if your child is more interested in biology instead of chemistry, they can downplay the chemistry and help the child pursue their greater interest in biology.
That is the beauty of homeschool. They can just learn the basics in chemistry in order to pass the SAT for college but can spend hours on end on biology is that is their passion. They can correspond with biologists, read textbooks, perform experiments, volunteer at a hospital, order a formal course from various curriculum providers, and do the same things public school students would do, but at their own pace, so if they want to spend months on plant cells instead of the two weeks they might spend in public school, they can.
Some college classes really are no better than just reading a book. My university psychology class had over 400 students. I got nothing out of it. I wish I had chosen a smaller college.
- crunchymom September 19, 2008 9:34PM
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Not every kid is going to be an engineer
Most public school students would not be caught dead in Physics or Calculus. Why should home schooled kids be that much different? Also, at the community college where I work, we have hundreds of high school students enrolled in classes. We bill back their high schools for the instruction. If a home schooled kid takes a community college class, how are they different than the public high school students?
Some homeschooling parents are much more qualified than the public school teachers their children would have. Personally, I wouldn't home school my kids, though I'd be qualified to teach physics and calculus and a lot of other subjects at a high school level. For example, my engineer neighbor who home schools his kids - he'd be qualified, too. My engineer friend who home schools could do the math and science, and French, too, since he taught high school level science at a private school in France for a few years. Home schooling parents are generally pretty smart. That's why their kids outperform public school kids, on the average.
- dmsharp
September 29, 2008 7:34PM
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This is not true
From my own experience with Home School, you do not have any choice in whether you take those classes. They are in the Materials we use for home schooling in our Church. When you get to that level, you have a multitude of choices, you can either teach it, use live video feed, use video feed, or use computer based learning for it.
- UltraConservative September 22, 2008 7:56PM
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oops
I am on the no side. I do not believe that children who are home schooled are at a disadvantage. There are, I am sure, statistics to prove that.
- UltraConservative September 22, 2008 7:58PM
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statistics
Some of those statistics you mention are displayed on the Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image :Homeschool_grades_chart.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image :Homeschool_academic_scores.jpg
To quickly sum them up...yes, homeschooled students have higher academic scores than both students of private/Catholic schools and public schools.
- ebsarver
September 24, 2008 1:01AM
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I think what they mean
is not all children that homeschool choose to take those subjects, just the same as they don't always choose to take them in public school. I went to public school and never had them. The highest I went was biology (but I got A's in college level astronomy) and geometry. My oldest is only 12 and I'm already checking into math programs that I don't have to understand the higher levels myself to teach. There are some great programs out there. The one I will be using teaches by DVD and book. It also has a feature that it goes through each problem in the entire book step by step on the computer so if your student misses any problems, they can see what they did wrong. My husband was a computer science major, so he can help the children, if I can't. Even if I didn't have him as a resource, I could find someone to help. The homeschooling community is VERY helpful to each other.
- eclecticeducation September 24, 2008 1:14PM
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Calculus/Physics
Just for the record, the curriculum that I am using for my children does offer advanced science and math courses. (ie - physics and calculus) as college prep. classes.
M
- ROLSongbird
August 10, 2009 12:34PM
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Higher-Level Subjects
I know some HS kids who are tutored (I went to public school and I was tutored in Physics--by one of my teachers) by others in the community, attend a college class or a night class offered by the school district or some kids don't either want to take classes like physics (i went into psychology for my BA, so physics was something i took for the Regents (NYS) diploma, not for my college degree) or don't need them for their career or college pursuits. Other kids/parents learn together, take an online class or read a physics text.
There are so many opportunities open to Homeschool kids just by virtue of their flexible schedule. Taking classes that mom or dad (or whomever does their homeschooling primarily) should never be a problem.
- kjoyr814 September 17, 2008 8:23PM
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an answer
I can speak only for my own children but with that caveat - Yes my children will be exposed to "advanced" subjects like calculus and physics. If you want the specifics my husband will handle the calculus as he's the numbers man by profession and I'll handle the physics because I'm the science nerd.
To be honest though this question irritates me but not for the reason you most likely would think. I get irritated because nothing and I repeat NOTHING that I learned in my high school years is so very complex that I cannot share that knowledge with my children. That isn't saying that what I learned was less than stellar. It was a good, solid mid-western education. But really the most advanced courses in high school are nothing compared to the course work at a college. Just because you are public schooled doesn't mean that you have an advantage of any sort. That still depends very much on location. Small, mid-western high school on the "college track" barely prepared me for the level of work demanded at my college of choice.
- bmm1097 September 17, 2008 8:29PM
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I agree
I agree with you. I too went to a small mid-western High School. It did little to prepare me for what was ahead of me in College. (I spent more than 13 years in Higher Education) I am thankful that the curriculum we have chosen for my Childrens Home School education will be preparing them for that as they reach high school. It has pre-college courses that they will have to take. They will even have the opportunity to enroll in college classes when they are seniors in High School.
- UltraConservative September 22, 2008 8:38PM
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Are you serious?
Do you truly believe that only 'school teachers' have the corner on these subjects? Maybe you should do a bit more research.
- Laughing at you September 18, 2008 7:31AM
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be direct
your implications sound stronger than it really would be if you said your point directly. I do not believe that "only" teachers know those subjects. I'm sure I could teach it since I took a lot of math and science in college, but people with such a background are a small fraction of society and I'm guessing homeschool parents have the same proportions.
- reckoner
September 18, 2008 9:02AM
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You are guessing wrong.
I've been reseaching homeschooling in all it's forms for over four years now. I have found an extremely large percentage of the parents are college grads. There are some parents who are only high school grads but even those parents are working hard to learn the subjects right along with their child or finding them mentors.
Recently, there has even been a large amount of men blogging about being the homeschooling dad! Many of those men giving up jobs as school teachers so they could stay home and teach their children while their spouse goes out and earns the income.
Also, please note, may parents of Mensa and gifted children choose homeschooling so their children can learn at their own pace. Me being one of them. My son was reading above an eighth grade level at six and
at age ten, he is working in advanced Algebra and Biology. We tried public gifted classes and private schools. They all refused to let him go at his pace. Now we homeschool, actually, we unschool meaning he has the freedom to learn. My son also knows that if at any time he wishes to return to school, he can. He is also allowed to try it decide against it, and return home. His choice.
For the sake of argument, I'll add that my oldest child finished college at eighteen and is now working in her chosen field.
Do some research and you will find very smart people homeschooling their kids.
Nuf said.
- Laughing at you September 18, 2008 9:32AM
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selective sampling
I'm sure there are kids who are served well from homeschooling, but that anecdote isn't going to convince me of the value generally. I knew a girl who was homeschool most of her life and her mother then convinced her to join the military. I'll simply say that she wasn't prepared for the world.
We can trade anecdotes, but we both me they don't really mean anything.
- reckoner
September 18, 2008 12:21PM
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First
I'm not trying to convince you. Not my place.
Second. If the system worked for everyone, there would be fewer homeschoolers then there are. Every year, all year long, there are very sad parents signing on to the homeschool groups to learn more. They tell such heart wrenching tales of the sorrows their children are suffering at school and they see no other choice but to withdraw their children and learn about homeschool. I was one of them a few years back.
Third. You say I gave you a selective sampling. You gave me one. My sampling is taken from an extremely large networking system of homeschoolers all over the world. Yes, I have done extensive research.
There will always be 'bad' parents and they exist in every group. I could list many, many, bad parents that I've seen in my life. I've found far fewer in the homeschooling community.
- Laughing at you September 18, 2008 1:49PM
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Try these statistics for size
http://homeschoolinformation.com/homeschooling/homeschool_statistics1.htm
- crunchymom September 19, 2008 10:06PM
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Military Career
But this is just one example; an anecdote to an anecdote.
A career in the military is an excellent career option. Many of those who join the military are highly educated. See http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.cfm
- Sudnem
September 25, 2008 8:22AM
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Advanced Subjects
I dropped out of high school in the 10th grade because of the substandard education and the threat of violence. I began to educate myself through self study. I have self taught myself many advanced science and math courses. I am now about to complete my doctorate.
My children are homeschooled. They learn advanced courses from me as well as professionals in certain fields.
I do not believe that calculus and physics are advanced courses. they are essential courses. These are principles and theory that are taught right now to my primary school children.
Physics, along with many other "advanced" subjects are involved in everyday discussion in our house.
- Sudnem
September 25, 2008 8:18AM
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homeschool kids do learn!
We also took our daughter out of a private school where she was bullied and called names everyday. Our daughter takes hard subjects. We are homeschooling and she in middle school taking Algebra 1,Literture/composition, world history, and Physical science. Our daughter is learning and we have school everyday. Our daughter is happy and enjoys meeting new friends all the time
- jaw
September 25, 2008 1:54PM
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Home school works
Schools parcel out, explain, put in context, and test knowledge. They don't invent it. Knowledge on a subject can be acquired in any number of ways to include books, the internet, informal tutoring, OJT, experience, to name a few. It makes sense with limited resources to teach most children in a mass sort of way. But to claim schools have a monopoly on learning is ignorant. If anything, home schoolers quickly learn that knowledge is available to anyone with a desire to learn and access to resources. While the schooled child may erroneously come to think schools are the only source of knowledge, as many people against homeschooling seem to think.
- MTheads
September 17, 2008 2:39PM
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Just Another Choice
I was home-schooled until 8th grade, at which point I switched to a private school. I was successful academically, graduating high school a year early and graduating from a UC school in computer science magna cum laude.
On the flip side, my brother - also home schooled - didn't graduate high school (though he eventually passed some equivalency test).
This is all anecdotal, but my personal experience is that success in home schooling depends mostly on the students desire to learn and the parents desire to teach - not on the parent's teaching skills. My mom and dad both suck at math, but I was able to excel in it and I learned how to read technical books on my own (i.e. math books) at an early age. The reason I say that parent teaching skill isn't too impoprtant is because, in my experience anyway, most learning was done on my own, not with my mom sitting next to me.
That said, I'm sending my kids to public school, because we live in a relatively good school district and homeschooling is more work for us.
I'd also like to point out that the experts saying home schoolers are disadvantaged are all members of one of the most powerful unions in the United States whose financial security and power as a union depend on students going to public schools. You'd be naive to expect an unbiased argument from that group - even though they are made up of education professionals.
- mofochickamo
September 18, 2008 8:06AM
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odd
"This is all anecdotal, but my personal experience is that success in home schooling depends mostly on the students desire to learn and the parents desire to teach - not on the parent's teaching skills."
how odd... that a student's success in a public school depends almost entirely on the same thing
- kcshiker
September 21, 2008 7:38AM
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Just Another Choice
The question is "Are Homeschooled Kids at a Disadvantage?". That success at both home schooling and public schooling depend on similar things does not argue in favor of either side but rather shows either choice could work, depending on your situation.
Though I disagree - public schooling depends more on other factors than homeschooling does. In public schools teachers have to deal with a lot of kids, and it only takes a one or two kids to cause distractions for the entire class. Public school teachers have to take time away from the class to deal with these kids - no matter how much the other kids may want to learn.
- mofochickamo
September 21, 2008 8:42AM
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not in good public schools
"This is all anecdotal, but my personal experience is that success in home schooling depends mostly on the students desire to learn and the parents desire to teach - not on the parent's teaching skills."
in good public schools in which the community supports fair education for all students
those kids there for the wrong reasons are encouraged to go elsewhere
and yes I know what the question was
I am uncommitted and my original comment illustrates why. Students with strong parental support, higher socioeconimc conditions, and strong family and community ties invariably do better in school whether it's at home or at public school.
See Marzano: Building Background Knowledge For Academic Achievement: Research On What Works In Schools
for all the research data you want on the issue
- kcshiker
September 21, 2008 9:13AM
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Student Achievement Variance
There are many factors that are attributable to student achievement within any school setting. These factors have been documented through psychological and economic studies.
Factors such as home effects, peer effects, students, teachers, principals all aggregate to give a probability of success. A variance, either high or low, on any one of these items will have an effect on the students learning. When you place all but one of these factors in control, you can then see how each factor affects student success.
As home educators we are controlling more narrowly the same factors that schools are working to control. With greater attention on these controls, we can provide a better environment for learning and a higher probability of student success.
For a good study of these factors see Urban Economics, Arthur O'Sullivan, 5th (2002) ISBN:0072487844.
- Sudnem
September 25, 2008 8:36AM
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certainly
I agree with your factors having an effect. The question is how large an effect? Research repeatedly shows that the greatest effect comes from socio-economics. Principals, class size, teacher education, etc. all play a much smaller role than the socio-economic background. In other words... a kid from wealthy, involved parents, will generally perform better in a bad school than a kid from poor, neglectful parents, in a good school.
- kcshiker
September 25, 2008 2:49PM
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Home Effects and Peer Effects
Exactly! All of these factors do play a role. However, some play a stronger role than others. Research within the United States shows that the strongest factors are "Peer Effects" and "Home Effects".
Peer Effects are the effects on a child's perception, development, and emotional growth that occur as a result of interaction with their peers (other children). A child will take on similar characteristics as the children around him; be that positive or negative.
Home Effects behave similar to Peer Effects, but these factors come from the child's home experience. Researchers consider many factors when determining Home Effects; parents educational level, income levels, whether parents provide books, computers, etc.
The other factors play less of a role in the development and achievement of a child, but they still skew the probabilities. What most homeschool parents are trying to achieve is to produce an environment where all of these factors lessen the probability of a weak education.
"Peer Effects" and "Home Effects" should not be confused with socialization and socializing, which are two different aspects of child development and achievement which occupy a different sphere but overlaps with these factors.
- Sudnem
September 25, 2008 7:22PM
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Home-Educated Students
I home-educated my children through their entire school years, in spite of the many, many moves we made throughout those years. My daughter is now teaching part-time and caring for my parents (my Dad is 95 and my Mom has M.S.) and my son is a Jr. in University in Civil Engineering. Einstein said that one should not memorize anything they can look up, so my main basis in our home-education was to create interest in everything around them and give them the skills to research. We worked with foresters along the Alaska Highway to colleges and camps to helping the police teach Character training in inner-city public schools. A real plus to home-education is the interaction with all ages of people vs. a 'not-so-positive' peer dependency. Older people throughout these years had such a positive influence on my children. I will never regret these years spent with my children. They are my best friends and continuing to be good, healthy neighbors and citizens.
- Canadian September 18, 2008 7:41PM
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Yes, if ...
Yes, IF the one-on-one attentions they receive in homeschooling attend to their needs in greater quality and quantity than the watered-down attentions they receive in schools. But let's be clear - neither homeschooling nor public and private schools have a monopoly on good education. There are no cookie-cutter solutions applicable to every individual child. It is high time that education - regardless of who is doing the teaching - be tailored to each and every child in recognition of their individual abilities, talents, skills, interests, etc. In the name of efficiency and control, I doubt very seriously any student today is receiving the precise guidance and caretaking they deserve to attain their best possible individual unique potential. Some students are held back by the slow pace of organized education, others are made to feel deficient because of the pace or approach untailored to them specifically. Of course, there is a limit to the customized education large schools can provide. Nevertheless, each and every child deserves no less. To fall back on excuses why this or that cannot be managed is to injure the child's chances. It is tantamount to lack of care and potentially abusive. It is high time we cease with our excuses why this or that student cannot receive what they must. Homeschooling at least has the advantage of affording each child more individualized time. Sadly, not all parents are up to the task. That fact is not argument against tailored education. It is argument for greater assistance to parents and children who wish to try. For years, I've thought it's some kind of miracle an educated human being manages to emerge from our less-than-ideal education system. Perhaps our insistence on a "system" is at the root of the problem. Children aren't cogs nor ought they be trained to become cogs. It clearly makes sense, if one wishes to maximize the potential of a population, one must do all that is necessary to maximize the potential of each and every individual FIRST. Senior generations throughtout much of our history have grossly failed in that task.
If one wants cookie-cutter people, one is likely to get what one asks for. We could afford quite a few more healthy adults who have developed outside of the usual very poor quality and spirit-killing indoctrinations of our "system".
- Naumadd
September 20, 2008 2:30AM
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One on One
We home school our children and each one of them has an education plan based on their specific needs. That plan is formulated by the test they take when they begin school. The people we get our curriculum from then takes those tests and along with the parents, decides what that plan will be. I have a 1st grader who excells in every thing but numbers, so his curriculum is centered around majoring on those things he needs most help with. His little brother is a Kidergardener. His curriculum is centered around his ability in all subjects. He started Kindergarden in August and will be beginning 1st grade in January. What does that mean? I means they are getting the education they deserve tailored to them specifically. I do not personally believe in the ability of our public school system here. The teachers do not care about the students they way they should. They will pass students on to the next grade even if they should not be.
- UltraConservative September 22, 2008 8:12PM
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my wife is a teacher
"They will pass students on to the next grade even if they should not be."
This isn't true at my wife's school, and it's very complicated. Usually the teacher recommends that a kid be held back and the parents refuse. Sometimes the administration refuses, but usually it's the parents.
My wife has twice tried to have a kid evaluated for learning disabilities and both times the parents fought tooth and nail to prevent it.
- reckoner
September 22, 2008 8:17PM
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I know not all are the same
I know not all public school systems are the same. If we were else where, we might not have made the same choice about home schooling that we made here.
However, there is a family in our church that has a child that is very slow in many subjects. Yet, the school here will not hold here back because they don't want her to miss out on what the others her age are doing. They have told the parents that they should hire tutors to help her. This is a very low income family who cannot afford that. They have to rely on the Public school because they cannot afford any thing else and the public school is failing them.
- UltraConservative September 22, 2008 8:30PM
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It is a sad system ...
It's incredibly destructive to a developing mind to be thrust into a system involuntarily which is designed to focus in and punish your weaknesses and then expect better performance out of you. If there are elements to the educational system which will even inadvertently demoralize the student, it is the system which needs changing - not the student. It's appalling to ignore the fact that no two individuals are created equal in talents or abilities and neither can any two people attain equal experience and skill. We must move away from a culture that underappreciates some and overappreciates others. By this, I do not mean any of us are equal, however, all of us have our value and it is that very individual and unique that ought to be nurtured, respected and preserved. Most significantly, we must end these time when our children are demoralized for the very uniqueness which gives them value in the first place.
- Naumadd
September 23, 2008 12:21AM
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Yes and No
As an advocate for high quality pre-k I believe that for the majority of americans public schools are the best option. However, if families have the financial means to teach their child at home, especially in the early years, they should seriously consider enjoying that time in their children's lives with them every day. As to the benefits of homeschooling over time I am not sure that home schooled children enter society prepared for full participation in our democracy warts and all.
- jmholland
September 23, 2008 4:07PM
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What?
"As to the benefits of homeschooling over time I am not sure that home schooled children enter society prepared for full participation in our democracy warts and all. "
Good thing the founding fathers who set up this government were not homeschooled, wait, they were.
Look up most of the important people that helped start this country and what schools they went to.
- purelabor
September 25, 2008 10:08PM
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One size does not fit all
Educations should be tailored as much as possible to the individual. For those that can take on the task, and do so responsibly, only home/un/deschooling offers that advantage.
- Eric Prescott
October 8, 2008 3:25PM
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Hindered?
I never thought we'd homeschool, but here we are in our third year and enjoying it tremendously. Our children get more positive attention than any school can provide (hard to beat a 2:1 student:teacher ratio?), and while we keep them up to speed or ahead of state standards we also follow our children's interests and explore countless additional subjects not often provided by public schools these days. What better way to learn geography than to SEE the country? What better way to learn history than to visit the locations, take part in reenactments, see, hear, touch and feel it? We find life lessons provide great learning experiences. As for social skills, there's a lot more to socialization than surviving in a group of peers your age, of similar backgrounds and histories. By living IN the world and learning IN the world, homeschooled children who are given the exposure to real life are by far ahead of their peers in brick-and-mortar settings.
- PeanutButterMama
October 18, 2008 10:46PM
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If you hate bureaucracy, then go for it.
Doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with teaching the old-school way. Just mix it up with a few internet options and it seems like all the benefits of public school are still there.
- F2XL
November 14, 2008 8:52PM
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Work with their strengths!
Marcus Buckingham shared a story about a question that was asked all over the world. Here it is" If you are to achieve Great success in your life, will it come by focusing on your strengths or improving your weaknesses". People from different countries around the world were asked this question and every person in every country said that success would come by improving their weaknesses. Some countries-Japan-74% said improving their weaknesses would increase their chances of success.
Buckingham said "No one in the world is hired according to their weaknesses" Spend time on your strengths, understand your strengths.
We use: Strengths Explorer For Ages 10 to 14
http://www.amazon.com/StrengthsExplorer-Ages-10-14-StrengthsFinder/dp/1595620184/ref =sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227137894&sr=8-1
It is a great help to learn more about your child and especially for your child to recognize their strengths.
- tlah
November 19, 2008 3:40PM
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Are public schooled kids at an advantage?
It's not about what you think about someone elses kid - for god's sake your neighbors kid isn't yours so you have no right to think you know better than the parents on what to do with the kid. It's about freedom.... if parents want to homeschool kids, let em. If they suck at it, the kid ends up with a french fry job. If they do well..the kid goes to college, opens a business, or may even still end up at a burger joint. You see, in public education the parents are out of the loop - infact the parents are often left defending the right to have control over their kid. Teacher for the most part are only good at delivering the curriculum..that's it. That's their job. It is the State and the Feds that determine what is taught. And who decides for the Fed? A bunch of political pundits who have phd and think they know better with their qualitative quasi research. Now, the only disadvantage a Kid can have in ANY schooled situation is a Parent that does not value their kid enough to choose what is best for the kid. Frankly give me a parent who cares and 95% of the time you'll have a kid who is successful in any schooled situation.
- selfish November 21, 2008 5:23PM
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Selfish 'holier than thou' parents harm children with their smugness
Part of the educational process is learning how to deal with other people. Bullies, friends, members of the other sex, difficult teachers etc....
You won't learn that at home. Children who do not need to be pampered can excel even in a bad school.
- pridebeforethefall
April 8, 2009 12:09PM
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Sounds like you have your own issues!
So, you're saying kids need to go to school to get toughened up? I don't think so, and I would not subject my kids (all 6 of them!!) to that. Maybe that's part of the problem with schools?? They have friends, some the opposite sex, and interact with numerous adults all the time.
I think homeschooled kids have extreme advantages to their mass-schooled counterparts that are too numerous to list right now.
- Natural Mom
June 10, 2009 12:07PM
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Homeschoolers
They don't get the Highschool Experience. Good or bad it teaches lessons about society work ethics and the no special treatment view of most of society.
In highschool I was offered AP, IP and Concurrent enrolement for higher learning before college so there you go on that.
Public schools allow you to try and "find yourself" before you are let out into the big mean world.
Homeschoolers get pampered in comparison. Manipulation and brainwashing is more direct also.
- ttut21
August 15, 2009 1:43AM
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homeschooling good or bad
WE homeschooled,College test scores are higher for homeschoolers.You are right about the highschool experience good or bad.Most of the homeschoolers I know are off to college before most highschools finish there schooling.
Sooner or later the childern will go there way.At 18 some of my childern went wild the only thing I can think of they grow up to sheltered and fast.
- countryboy
August 15, 2009 11:46AM
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