35035863

Why is Killing Abortionists Like George Tiller So Wrong?

Opinion by Reason Foundation
(June 01, 2009) in Politics / Abortion

by Jacob Sullum

Leading pro-life activists are denouncing yesterday's murder of Kansas abortion doctor George Tiller, but I'm not sure I understand why. "It is immoral and it is unchristian," says the Rev. Rob Schenck of the National Clergy Council. Calling the killing "a cowardly act," Operation Rescue President Troy Newman says his group "has worked tirelessly on peaceful, nonviolent measures to bring [Tiller] to justice through the legal system, the legislative system....We are pro-life, and this act was antithetical to what we believe."

Yet if you honestly believe abortion is the murder of helpless children, it's hard to see why using deadly force against those who carry it out is immoral, especially since the government refuses to act. It may be unwise or counterproductive to the cause, as Schenck suggests when he worries that the killing could be "a greater setback to the pro-life movement than anything the so-called pro-choice movement could do." Promoting an image of pro-life activists as murderous extremists might dim the prospects for legislation restricting abortion, thereby leading to more deaths of unborn children than eliminating one abortionist prevents. But this is a tactical question that does not have to do with the inherent morality of killing in defense of innocent children.

Nor is it sufficient to note that killing Tiller was against the law. When the law blesses the murder of babies, it is hardly worthy of respect, any more than laws blessing the enslavement of Africans or the gassing of Jews were, and violent resistance against such enactments surely is justified in principle. Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry implicitly condemns Tiller's murder, saying, "We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God." Yet Terry continues to call Tiller a "mass murderer" and insists "the pro-life movement must not be browbeaten by Obama or the child-killers into surrendering our best rhetoric, actions and images," adding, "We hold absolutely no responsibility for [Tiller's] death."

The less militant anti-abortion organizations embrace a similar contradiction. Here is National Right to Life's statement:

National Right to Life extends its sympathies to Dr. Tiller's family over this loss of life

Further, the National Right to Life Committee unequivocally condemns any such acts of violence regardless of motivation. The pro-life movement works to protect the right to life and increase respect for human life. The unlawful use of violence is directly contrary to that goal.

As I said, killing abortionists may be contrary to that goal for tactical reasons. But how is it possible to believe that fetuses are people with a right to life yet also believe that using deadly force to defend that right is wrong?

Regarding Opinion
Why is Killing Abortionists Like George Tiller So Wrong?

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  • KwameJones
    Are you kidding?

    Because murder is murder and death is death.

    This represents the typical hypocrisy of the 'right-to-life' yet 'pro- death penalty ' side of the argument. If this argument is ever truly to be taken seriously you need to renounce your support of the death penalty... (which by the tone of this article I can only assume the author is in favor of.) How can advocating a criminals' death, even a murderers' death, be considered pro-life ?

    Finally, I'd like to offer the position that people and groups in the public eye, such as Terry, are quick to condemn these acts as a sort-of preemptive strike against questions that are bound to surface about his responsibility for the attack. Randall Terry has a long and documented history of subtly advocating violence against abortion clinics, and I believe he is simply attempting to cover his own butt, lest some overzealous prosecutor wishes to present the matter to a grand jury.

    - KwameJonesUS June 1, 2009 3:28PM

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    • quantummechanik
      I think this article

      might be a bit facetious. I'm hoping that it's intended to point out the inherent hypocrisy in the Pro-Life movement. Fingers crossed.

      - quantummechanikUS June 1, 2009 6:11PM

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      • donnawatkins
        I think

        you are giving pro-life Americans too much credit! They really DO think like this, many of them, I am sorry to say.

        - donnawatkinsUS June 3, 2009 11:20AM

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        • quantummechanik
          Well, crap

          There goes a good 15% of my hope for humanity.

          - quantummechanikUS June 3, 2009 11:22AM

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          • dannyboy
            I hope you are right...

            I had the same initial response as you, quantummchanik. I have to presume that the author isn't being facetious, but it sure seems like he might be.

            At any rate, please don't take this author's way of thinking as a good example of what most Pro-life activists are like.

            All human lives are precious -- including those of abortion doctors ! That understanding is what keeps the Pro-life movement going in the way that it has for several decades now - nonviolent resistance and trying to work within the system to change things for the better.

            peace

            - dannyboyUS June 3, 2009 3:55PM

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        • nnadeau
          Mind if I interject?

          If you look at Catholics standing outside abortion mills praying rosaries, you will see the more moderate pro-life activists. The church has a longstanding view on the sanctity of life, from conception to natural death. This sanctity extends to the most vile of our society , including serial rapists, murderers, and terrorists. This even extends to euthanasia , a position far more difficult to defend.

          - nnadeauUS June 5, 2009 4:36PM

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          • Khannea Suntzu
            Correct

            Whereas i loathe catholics, I find myself in agreement here - even the most wretched of humans should be exempt from torture and death sentence.

            - Khannea SuntzuNL June 8, 2009 11:11AM

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        • LagerHead
          No, you don't think

          Donna, you apparently don't know too many pro-life people. The majority of pro-lifers in no way advocate vigilante justice against the likes of Dr. Tiller, no matter how wrong we think he is.
          Pro-choice advocates love to point out that things are never black and white, except when it comes to pro-lifers. According to you, those are the only two colors we see, which could not be further from the truth.
          Don't let fear, ignorance, and prejudice cloud your thinking. Just because I disagree with you, and I feel strongly about my position, as do you, doesn't mean I want you dead. That kind of thinking is ridiculous.

          - LagerHeadUS June 16, 2009 9:57AM

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        • Alayna Staggers
          Pro-life not Pro-Death


          George Tiller is dead. No more babies to die at his hands! 60,000 innocent lives were taken which God gave to mothers who did not want them. Whata sad legacy to leave behind, so sad that even his church did not mention his occupation in his eulogy. We as pro-lifers believe that life and death should be in the hands of God. When our Lord returns, there will be no more death. Tiller will face his maker then. We all must prepare our hearts and live our lives so we can meet our loved ones in Heaven. Noone should take the chance of being lost because of greed. And greed is what motivates abortionists.

          - Alayna StaggersUS June 23, 2009 1:25PM

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            • Alayna Staggers
              Pro-Life Not Pro-Death

              It has been acknowledged that the man who shot Tiller acted alone. He was in no way connected to the pro-life movement. "We" do not shoot people. Tiller did take life into his own hands and killed 60,000 babies! Death was his mission and he reaped what he sowed. God took his protective hand off of Tiller (in my opinion) because God knew there was no repentence in Tiller for what he was doing. His death took place in his own church , which was symbolic as we pro-lifers asked the church to discipline Tiller for his acts. His church refused to listen as many still refuse to listen to God's warnings. We are to take heed as God is a loving and righteous God but when His wrath is kindled we have much to fear, just as everyone must face him for all their misdeeds. God is sickened by abortion , the murder of His very precious little ones. Is there really any doubt?

              - Alayna StaggersUS June 28, 2009 3:07PM

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              • quantummechanik
                What is pro-life

                You're part of the pro-life movement, I assume. What do you do that makes you part of the pro-life movement? What actions do you take that involves you with that community?

                - quantummechanikUS June 28, 2009 4:47PM

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              • Blappo
                Bullshit

                "He was in no way connected to the pro-life movement."

                I'm presuming you're just ignorant and not intentionally lying.

                "David Leach, publisher of Prayer & Action News, a magazine that opines that the killing of abortion providers would be justifiable homicide , told reporters that he and Roeder had met once in the late 1990s and that Roeder at that time had authored contributions to Leach's publication.[27][28][29] Leach published the Army of God manual, which advocates the killing of the providers of abortion and contains bomb-making instructions, in the January 1996 issue of his magazine.[30] A Kansas acquaintance of Roeder's, Regina Dinwiddie, told a reporter after Tiller's murder (speaking of Roeder), "I know that he believed in justifiable homicide." Dinwiddie, an anti-abortion militant featured in the 2000 HBO documentary Soldiers in the Army of God, added that she had observed Roeder in 1996 enter Kansas City Planned Parenthood's abortion clinic and ask to talk to the physician there; after staring at him for nearly a minute, Roeder said, "I’ve seen you now," before turning and walking away.[31]

                Roeder's former roommate of two years, Eddie Ebecher, who had met Roeder through the Freemen movement in the 1990s, told a reporter after Tiller's murder that he and Roeder had considered themselves members of the Army of God. Ebecher said Roeder was obsessed with Tiller and discussed killing him, but that Ebecher warned him not to do so. Ebecher, who went by the nom de guerre "Wolfgang Anacon," added that he believed Roeder held "high moral convictions in order to carry out this act. I feel that Scott had a burden for all the children being murdered."[32]

                In 2007, someone who identified himself as Scott Roeder posted on the website of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue that, "Tiller is the concentration camp 'Mengele' of our day and needs to be stopped before he and those who protect him bring judgment upon our nation." This was reported by the ADL's Center on Extremism, noting that Roeder called for "the closing of his death camp."[23][24] After Tiller's murder, officials from Operation Rescue, which had long opposed Tiller's abortion practices but denounced his shooting , said Roeder was not a contributor or member of the group.[14] The phone number for Operation Rescue's senior policy advisor, Cheryl Sullenger, was found on the dashboard of Scott Roeder's car[33]. At first, Operation Rescue's senior policy advisor Cheryl Sullenger denied any contact with Roeder, saying that her phone number is freely available online. Then, she revised her statements, indicating that Roeder’s interest was in court hearings involving Tiller.“ He would call and say, 'When does court start? When’s the next hearing?' I was polite enough to give him the information. I had no reason not to. Who knew? Who knew, you know what I mean?[8] ”


                Roeder reportedly attended the 2009 trial in which Tiller was acquitted of violating state abortion laws; Roeder called the trial "a sham" and felt the justice system failed in letting Tiller go free. On May 30, one day before Tiller was killed, a worker at a Kansas City clinic told the Federal Bureau of Investigation that Roeder had tried gluing the locks of the clinic shut, something Roeder was suspected of doing there before years earlier.[14] The Kansas City Star reported that a man of Roeder's description had glued the locks shot at the Central Family Medicine clinic in Kansas City on May 23 and May 30.[8]"

                Sorry, but the statement "He was in no way connected to the pro-life movement" is demonstrably Bullshit.

                No surprise there though, pro-lifers ignoring the facts when they are inconvenient.

                - BlappoUS July 7, 2009 4:31PM

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    • Dan the Man
      Hypocrisy

      The way I see it, there is no hypocrisy in advocating the death penalty for people who knowingly murder other people while at the same time advocating for the right to life for the most innocent people on the planet (i.e., unborn children ). The death penalty should be applied to people who knowingly murder another human being, including the individual who murdered the abortion doctor. On the other hand, how do we justify the killing of perfectly innocent human beings such as unborn children? In my view, the hypocrisy is on the pro choice side of the argument. These individuals typically advocate leniency for murderers while at the same time supporting the death penalty for millions of perfectly innocent children. The world is upside down.

      - Dan the ManUS June 3, 2009 12:18PM

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      • mangueken
        No Hypocrisy at all

        There is a problem with your definitions of hypocrisy and knowingly murder. The person that applies the death penalty is "knowingly" murdering someone. Why should the state be exempted from an action that individuals know is wrong?
        The problem with "hypocrisy" is really in the self adopted name " pro-life " movement. All these groups are simply anti- abortion . There is nothing in there history to show that they really care about life. How many of these organizations ever oppose war? How many have ever opposed the death penalty (well know that one of their own suffered it, they do but what about before)?
        Even the whole killing/ murdering /death penalty of "perfectly innocent children " is a farce.
        How many of these anti-abortion groups have teamed up with other organizations to help poor families survive? How many scholarships are they providing for young women who have children? How many day centers do they help run so that young mother can go out and work to provide for these "perfectly innocent children"?
        These anti-abortion groups have a long road ahead of them to earn the right to call themselves pro-life.

        - manguekenUS June 3, 2009 2:23PM

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        • dannyboy
          you would be surprised

          Like many Pro-choice folks, you seem to presume that the majority of Pro-life organizations do not support women and children after the child is born. Anyone who has actually been involved with the Pro-life movement can tell you otherwise.

          Every single Pro-life organization that I have worked with has included supporting mothers both pre- and post-partum.

          To say that most people in the Pro-life movement care nothing for mothers and born children is to demonstrate a real lack of understanding of what it really means to be involved in working against abortion .

          Why don't you try actually getting to know some people who work in the Pro-life cause some time? It might be illuminating to you.

          peace

          - dannyboyUS June 3, 2009 3:51PM

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          • mangueken
            Simple

            Show me the list of organizations that help women and children that the major anti- abortion groups works with and I will check them out.
            Upon such information I will have an opportunity to change my mind.

            - manguekenUS June 3, 2009 4:03PM

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            • Jerica
              Pregnancy centers

              I know of at least two crisis pregnancy centers in my city that have been extremely generous and kind in helping mothers and their children . A friend of mine had a baby and she is very poor and we went to this one place and they gave her free diapers (for months), free clothes, help with her rent, even. I donated a lot of baby stuff to them to give to moms and their kids . Pro life is about not only saving the life of the unborn, but helping out the born and their moms who are struggling to get by. Even people who support abortion should be giving to moms and babies who need help. Kindness to those who are down and out isn't a pro/anti abortion issue, it is one of goodness in a person. I have no idea if the "major" anti abortion groups help them or if the major abortion groups help them, either -- but *I* help them and that's what matters.

              - JericaUS June 3, 2009 8:02PM

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              • mangueken
                You sound like a kind hearted person

                and I'm certainly not attacking those individuals or small groups who do work like you expressed that you do. Unfortunately, you, or organizations like yourselves don't get enough media attention.
                The fact that you, and people like you doesn't take away my pro-choice stance but you do have a general attitude towards respecting life based on an ideal in action that I could agree with much better than those that are simply against abortion as if that process were the only action taken in the world that is against life.

                - manguekenUS June 3, 2009 9:01PM

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              • locavore
                These acts are commendable

                But unfortunately are not always the norm. The two "crisis pregnancy centers" in my town don't do things like give months' worth of free diapers or financial assistance. Instead, they do their work by actually, no-s*hit lying to people. Like, telling them their pregnancy test is negative, for months, in hopes that they don't find out they're pregnant until after the first trimester. Or, handing them "medical looking" literature that says if they use RU-486 to abort, they'd see their four-week-old products of conception literally swimming in the toilet, eenty-weentsy but looking like full-term infants, waving at them and crying literal tears as they are flushed away. At least three girls were given "pills" from a jar and told they had had an abortion , then when they continued to have pregnancy symptoms for weeks came in to see my doctors to find out what was wrong with them.

                I commend you for your actions, and the actions of all those who work to solve the problems of hunger and helplessness and destitution. If all "pro-lifers" worked and thought this way, I believe there would be a far smaller schism in the debate (and far, far fewer abortions). That you assume pro-choice folks to be uncharitable just shows that you have as many misconceptions about pro-choice advocates as they have about you.

                - locavoreUS June 4, 2009 10:53AM

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          • quantummechanik
            Out of curiousity

            Do you support socialized medicine ?
            If not, why not?

            - quantummechanikUS June 3, 2009 4:36PM

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            • dannyboy
              are you asking me or mangueken?

              If you are asking me, then yes, I do support socialized medicine -- as long as it doesn't mean that my taxes go to pay for killing people.

              I'm not sure how it would be accomplished, but if we could get a single-payer, pro-life medical support system in place in this country, I think we'd all be MUCH better off. I also think it would lower the rates of abortion simply by making it easier for women not to be afraid that they won't be able to pay for their pregnancies and their kids ' health care after they are born.

              Obviously, not all pro-life people think that single-payer health care is actually the best system for supporting women and children , but many of us do.

              peace

              - dannyboyUS June 3, 2009 5:36PM

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            • LagerHead
              Two words

              Ask Europe.
              I heard on the radio just this morning from a Canadian gentleman who used to live in Sweden, where they have socialized medicine . He said in the community where he lived, those who had serious illnesses or injuries that needed anything greater than the most basic medical attention, would fly to Germany to get that attention.
              The problem with socialized medicine is the same as the problem with socializing other industries. No difference. When socialization occurs, competition and creativity decline severely. If there is no profit to motivate you, why bother being better than the next guy?
              I'm not saying that kind of attitude is right. But being right doesn't make it reality. The fact is, humans are motivated by a desire to succeed. And that desire is driven by the desire to live a more lavish, comfortable life style. And when you take away the money , you take away the talent. This has been shown time and again in socialist countries.
              I could go on, but I think you get the point.

              - LagerHeadUS June 16, 2009 10:05AM

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        • Dan the Man
          Response

          A few comments, then I have to let this go. The state is empowered to conduct all types of activities that may be considered wrong by or for individuals (i.e., war, imprisonment, espionage, taxation, death penalty , etc.). Equating wrongful activity by the state and the individual is a false comparison. The rest of your argument is a really a straw man. For example, you state that the pro life movement does not have the moral authority to speak because they have not helped poor families to survive. That may or may not be true, but what difference does that make. You have not responded to my original argument that it is hypocritical to advocate the taking of innocent human life while at the same time advocating for leniency for individuals who knowingly and illegally take the lives of others. To put it in crude terms, why is it OK to kill babies but its not OK to kill murdering thugs. That seems to me to be hypocritical.

          - Dan the ManUS June 3, 2009 4:19PM

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        • tbcass
          You are wrong, Catholic Church does all that

          "How many of these anti- abortion groups have teamed up with other organizations to help poor families survive? How many scholarships are they providing for young women who have children ? How many day centers do they help run so that young mother can go out and work to provide for these "perfectly innocent children"?"

          The major anti Abortion group of all, the Catholic Church, partakes in every one of those activities. The remaining anti abortion groups don't have the resources.

          - tbcassUS June 6, 2009 8:29AM

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      • tbcass
        More

        At the same time many anti abortionists are very pro death penalty . The hypocrisy pendulum swings both ways. Any time people people become overly emotional on an issue logic goes out the window. Excessive emotionalism is extremely dangerous and is the root of most of the problems in society .

        - tbcassUS June 6, 2009 8:25AM

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        • LagerHead
          Even more

          The argument comparing abortion and the death penalty is old, tired, and ridiculous. You're comparing killing an unborn child with the likes of Charles Manson, the BTK Killer, and other scum. Serial killers deserve to die. Now, I'm only 35 years old, but so far I haven't met an infant that I would say deserves to die.

          - LagerHeadUS June 16, 2009 2:48PM

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          • MrBook
            even application

            It is easy to point to Charles Manson and others as examples of the worst of humanity... but that ignores how unevenly the death penalty is applied. It is overwhelmingly used on racial minorities, and the poor.

            Supporting the death penalty means that you are comfortable with the idea that innocent people WILL be killed by the government.

            - MrBookUS June 16, 2009 8:25PM

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            • LagerHead
              Wrong again

              I wasn't aware that whites were a racial minority in the U.S. Since 1976 57% of defendants executed in the U.S. were white.
              http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-death-row-inmates-executed-1976 #defend
              But let's not confuse the rhetoric by introducing facts.
              And no, I am not "comfortable" with innocent people being put to death. However, the number of those who are thought to be innocent after being put to death is very low, and even fewer have been proven. (I didn't say none, but I haven't been able to find any). That being said, I still support the death penalty in the most heinous of crimes. You won't change my mind, but you're welcome to try.

              - LagerHeadUS June 16, 2009 11:42PM

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              • tbcass
                Innocent people

                As long as there is a possibility that even one innocent person will be executed (and trust me, it has happened many times) I will oppose the death penalty . The fact that innocent people on death row have been exonerated is certainly proof enough that innocents have been executed. To believe otherwise is naive. It's amazing that you can accept killing a few innocent people to insure that guilty ones are executed.

                On the black/white thing. Since the average % of whites in the US since 1976 is in the order of 85% but only 57% of those executed were white shows a very large racial disparity. Be careful how you use statistics since it can come back to bite you.

                - tbcassUS June 17, 2009 5:55AM

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    • twizneski
      A couple of point.

      It wasn't murder - it was post-birth abortion .
      And I, myself, am not " pro-life ", I'm anti-abortion. I believe in the defense of the innocent, not the guilty.

      - twizneskiUS June 4, 2009 7:23PM

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  • manderso
    agreement

    You left out that Randall Terry likes Guiness, that's the only thing I agree with him on. I suppose your argument is true to an extent EXCEPT that civilization would fall apart if everyone acted on the basis of their own beliefs. You left that little part out also.

    - mandersoUS June 1, 2009 6:35PM

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  • Sesquipedalian
    Hypocrisy is alive and well

    Acting in a manner that explicitly contradicts the theoretical basis for the entire position is hypocritical, and thus serves to invalidate the the argument. If all life is sacred, as the pro-life movement asserts, then surely killing the doctor is just as wrong as carrying out an abortion ? Suggesting that killing him is a legitimate means to save lives is internally contradictory and only serves to make the pro-life movement look like irrational extremists.

    From a legalistic point of view, only the state has the authority to legally put someone to death, and it creates a very dangerous precedent if any individual or groups in society decide they should decide who deserves to die. Killing another person for any reason other than those covered by the self-defense exceptions recognised by the law is murder, pure and simple.

    Irrespective of whether or not you think abortion is right or wrong obedience to the law is necessary for the maintenance of a civilised society. If people break the law because they do not agree with it, there will be a state of anarchy.

    - SesquipedalianAU June 1, 2009 7:18PM

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    • jkk5us
      Hypocrisy cuts both ways

      A society that stands by and allows a butcher like Tiller to commit genocide against the most defenseless among us is complicit in his guilt. Murdering Tiller was certainly wrong, but I can guarantee you that God will judge all those who failed to do anything to protect these partially born victims of Killer Tiller.

      - jkk5usUS July 1, 2009 2:12PM

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  • Jim Harrison
    What the Rhetoric tells us

    If the anti-abortionists had a good case, they wouldn't need to resort to misrepresenting their opponents. Whatever you think of Dr. Tiller's activities, it's just factually absurd to portray him as some sort of greedy monster. The man obviously believed in what he was doing and was willing to risk his life to go on doing it. Somebody said his murderer acted out of idealism. Well, so did Tiller. Demonizing the man is simply a black propaganda technique.

    Anyhow, if you really want to reduce the number of abortions, you need to attack the right target. Picket the Vatican. No institution on the planet has caused more abortions than the Roman Catholic church.

    - Jim HarrisonUS June 3, 2009 11:36AM

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    • dannyboy
      a ridiculous assertion

      The assertion that the Vatican has 'caused' abortions is ridiculous. I would love to see some substantiating evidence for this silly idea.

      peace

      - dannyboyUS June 3, 2009 3:26PM

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      • Jim Harrison
        The Papal Abortionist

        The Roman church's long war against contraception has been effective in many countries. Unwanted pregnancies result in abortions, legal or otherwise. Millions of them. Abortions are the foreseeable consequence of making contraception expensive and illegal.

        Pro-life people in general don't seem to be upset about abortion per se since they don't support the policies that would make it rarer (as opposed to making it illegal). Anyhow, if you really think abortion is simply murder, it would be more logical to punish the women involved rather than the abortion providers. Indeed, since most pro-life people are also huge fans of the death penalty , I guess they should be calling for mass executions of women. Since they aren't going to do that, they should simply shut up or at least enjoy their orgies of moral hysteria in private.

        - Jim HarrisonUS June 3, 2009 4:14PM

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        • dannyboy
          more bigotry

          I'm not sure where you get the idea that "most pro-life people are also huge fans of the death penalty ". Can you back that up with evidence? What does it mean to be a "huge fan" of something? Is that different from being a reluctant supporter of something?

          Can you name any single piece of Pro-life legislation introduced in the last thirty years that suggests treating abortion as a capital offense?

          It seems to me that you are more interested in ugly stereotypes than in reality.

          The same is true of your false assertions about the Catholic Church.

          If you have a look at the actual evidence, (do a search on the Guttmacher Institute's website if you like) you will see that in MANY cases (including the United States) increasing use of contraceptives actually correlates with increasing abortion rates. The reasons for this are complicated, but two basic notions may apply:

          1. Increases in general contraceptive use create a social atmosphere of permissiveness around sex, which then leads to more sex without contraceptives along with more contracepted sex.

          2. No contraceptive is 100% effective, and as the rate of contracepted sex increases, so too does the number of incidences of pregnancies due to failed contraceptives.

          Because people in societies where contraception is the norm come to think that a 'good faith' use of contraceptives somehow makes them no longer responsible for the natural consequences of heterosexual sex, they make use of abortion to take care of all those new pregnancies that would never have happened in a society without permissive social attitudes which tend to accompany the dispersal of contraceptives.

          Take a look at the evidence. The facts are against you, Mr. Harrison.

          You still have not substantiated your claims about the Catholic Church with any evidence, by the way...

          peace

          - dannyboyUS June 3, 2009 5:32PM

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          • Jim Harrison
            Sophistries

            I'm well aware that Prolifers aren't calling for the death penalty for women who abort their children . That was my point. If they really think abortion is murder, they should be calling for such laws. They aren't. They just want to enjoy the ineffable pleasure of working themselves into a tizzy without dealing with the implications of their own point of view. In effect, I was saying they ought to put up or shut up. It is rather typical of religious people to admire fanaticism while shying away from its predictable consequences.

            I'm well aware that the Catholic church has elaborate doctrines explaining why contraception is evil, doctrines which you perhaps share since you talk about "the natural consequences of heterosexual sex" and apparently think of sex as evil unless it is done in the dead of night for purposes of procreation. Your position comes down to saying that all will be well if everybody is a good Catholic (or good Baptist or whatever) and lives by your values. No thanks.

            You are perfectly welcome to your own attitudes on these issues. The legality or illegality of abortion is a secular issue, however, and you need to come up with secular arguments in favor of compassing the death of women. Make no mistake about it. Anybody who promotes illegal abortions promotes unnecessary deaths because in the real world desperate women will go on having abortions. Where contraception is illegal, many of these abortions may not be counted by official statistics, but they take place anyhow, often with fatal consequences as the Guttmacher Institute and everybody else is well aware.

            - Jim HarrisonUS June 3, 2009 6:28PM

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            • dannyboy
              straw man

              I have to wonder whether you would like for Pro-life thinking to be brutal and unsubtle. It almost sounds like you would. Why most Pro-life people do not think of women who procure abortions as homicidal maniacs. Many of us do not think that the death penalty is a reasonable means of procuring justice and protecting society in modern states like the USA. It is hardly a foregone conclusion that if one thinks that abortion takes an innocent life that therefore one ought to push for the death penalty for women who procure abortions. Only a very simpleminded person with no sense of the complexity of forces that push a woman to procure an abortion would hold such an idea.

              It seems like you want to set up a straw man version of the Pro-life position.

              At what point have I introduced a religious argument into this conversation? Any biologist would tell you that a probable natural outcome of heterosexual sex within a few days after a woman has ovulated is the conception of a human life. That is a basic biological fact, not religion .

              It is sometimes hard to cope with the facts when they are in opposition to our personal beliefs, but I would say that getting a clear vision of the facts, as far as we can be sure of them, is a good start to overcoming the limitations of our prejudices. Some of the prejudices which you have indulged in your posts are far from the facts.

              I won't even get in to your grim and distorted view of the beliefs of traditional Christians about sex, as that seems like a topic for a different thread.

              peace

              - dannyboyUS June 3, 2009 10:27PM

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              • Jim Harrison
                Small note

                I wouldn't tar every prolifer with the same brush, but lots of you guys cheerfully turn up the rhetorical heat and then act surprised when some hapless loner acts out as if you had no responsibility for their actions just as you take no responsibility for the deaths that result from the illegal abortions you promote. Anyhow, if you really believed that abortion was murder, why should you care what happens to the women who undergo them? You might not be in favor of the death penalty , but shouldn't you at least be calling for long prison sentences? Your protestations of sympathy for women are just more evidence of the patronizing attitude you have towards women in general.

                For the record, I'm well aware that people who describe themselves as Christians have and have had all kinds of attitudes about sex. As a historical generalization, though, the point stands. Traditional Christianity is wildly anti-sex and relentlessly anti-female as anybody who has read the Church fathers, the medieval confessional manuals, the Witch's Hammer, and umpteen other documents knows. For what it's worth, I don't hold all the history against contemporary Christians who probably don't know much about it or have figured out how to explain why their ideas are a natural (or supernatural) extension of the tradition--the first Catholic priest I ever really got to know was actively pro-choice and he was a smart guy or at least showed good taste in his eventual choice of a wife. I don't think all religions are evil or dangerous. I just think they are all false. That's different. Don't accuse me of blaming some poor moderate Methodist for the sins of the graduates of the Southern Baptist madrassas.

                - Jim HarrisonUS June 3, 2009 11:04PM

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  • fsilber
    Abortion is a crime somewhat less than murder

    If the birth threatens the life of the mother, it's not murder -- it's self-defense. That's the exception for late-term abortion that the law usually provides. But I don't know whether Tiller actually limited himself to such cases.

    According to Biblical law , a murderer must be put to death and must not be allowed to purchase clemancy. However, elsewhere it says that someone who causes a woman to miscarry must pay a heavy fine. This suggests that Christians who characterize abortion as murder are exaggerating. It probably falls into the category of self-mutilation, which though forbidden, does not justify killing an abortionist.

    - fsilberUS June 3, 2009 11:44AM

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    • dannyboy
      not really

      Of course, we did not have scientific evidence that both embryos and fetuses are human beings when the old Jewish Law was formulated, so back then it might have seemed reasonable to think of an abortion as self-mutilation. Now we know better, since the 'self' one is mutilating is actually another human being.

      By the way, are you suggesting that the best way to organize a modern society is by means of the old Jewish Laws?

      peace

      - dannyboyUS June 3, 2009 3:23PM

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      • fsilber
        It's a way of looking at it

        Well, the Orthodox Jewish perspective is that God dictated the Torah (1st five books) to Moses (including the part about Mose' death and burial!), so we assume that God knew enough about biology even if humans at the time did not. Of course, many of the laws dictated to Moses were specifically intended for the Jewish people to obey -- not necessarily for everybody.

        When the Apostle Paul decided to promote Christian doctrine to gentiles without first converting them to Judaism (and therefore without imposing all aspects of Jewish law on them), it gave the early Christians some flexibility as to which laws to retain. Since Jesus emphasized the moral, ethical and social teachings over the ritual practices, that is more or less the way Christian theologians decided.

        Thus, Christians retained the laws against murder and sodomy, but not the ones against eating shellfish or mandating circumcision . Since murder is an ethical issue, the Biblical perspective on abortion ought to be relevant to anyone looking at the issue from a Christian perspective. And I think this is why most Christian leaders, intuitively, recoil from the idea of assassinating abortionists but approve of, say, deadly combat against foreign terrorists.

        As for whether ancient Jewish Law is an appropriate basis for organizing a modern society , this question is of theoretical interest only (unless you, say, wanted to help some paleolithic Amazon tribe create their own nation-state). Most Western societies had already been organized a long time ago.

        In America's case, the society was organized on a Christian basis (though the government, as distinct from the society, was always pretty secular).

        - fsilberUS June 3, 2009 4:17PM

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        • Submariner
          not a very convincing one, though

          The first passage asserts that we assume God's knowledge of biology based on unrelated dogma. I am not sure what this is intended to mean, but it certainly does not illucidate what would have been the orthodox view on life had the ancient descendents of Abraham had our command of science and technology . I actually would expect them to just forget the whole god idea if they were so well versed; alas, all they had was tradition, superstition, and a rough lot in life.

          So then you go on to generalize other assumptions based on the dogma of how Christianity came into existance, as if three centuries of it were not cherry-picked from history when not just made up, to establish the religion separate from Judaism in the first place. Again, this point seems less than germane to the topic, if coherent at all (it's sense being predicated on not-quite-agreed-upon claims).

          It is particularly troubling to read your claim that the occident was already organized during the establishment of Jewish law . I can hardly imagine what was intended by such a wildly inaccurate description of history.

          But my real issue is with this last idea, that American society was actively organized at all (much less on a "Christian basis" whatever that could mean?). The American society is a quagmire of fractions from other societies, an example of chaotic social evolution of the nth degree. The original organizers of the US were far from harmonious on the basis of our country, some of the foremost rather anti-Christian, actually.

          So, really, what do you mean?

          - Submariner June 10, 2009 9:33PM

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          • fsilber
            It was meant for convincing religious people

            I'm not saying that WE assume God's knowledge of biology; I'm saying that religious dogma assumes God's knowledge of biology and therefore my analysis is relevant to those who accept religious dogma. Since I concluded based on religious dogma that one should NOT shoot abortion doctors , I had hoped that everyone else would actually welcome the contribution. I'm not saying that Christianity is incapable of rejecting that analysis based on post-split teaching, but only that they NEED NOT not choose between Christian dogma and keeping their guns holstered.

            As for "the organization of modern society " ... I was responding to the question as to whether religious dogma should be the basis for organizing a modern society. If you want to argue that American society has never been organized, then I would respond that it need never become more organized than that... so the original question is moot. We need not ask whether religion is a proper basis for organizing a modern society because a modern society has no more need for organization now than earlier. Ask a stupid question and you get a stupid answer.

            - fsilberUS June 11, 2009 7:01AM

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      • quantummechanik
        Actually, no

        Jewish law is quite clear on that. "The Fetus is as the thigh to the mother" according to the Midrash. And Jewish law REQUIRES abortion in the event that it could cause health issues, up to the point where 50% of the fetus is born.

        - quantummechanikUS June 30, 2009 1:27PM

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  • scottdavene
    civil rights

    Although, I personally am so far to the left, that even the even the democrats appear to me to be "right-wing," I consider myself to be a strict constitutionalist. It is my opinion that since its inception there has been an organized and systematic assault by the conservatives in the United States on the civil liberties written into the US Constitution. The “War on Drugs”; “War on Terror”; “War on Communism” and a host of other wars waged by the right wing are really nothing more than a War on People--an excuse to erode civil rights to the point of non-existence. I invite you to my website devoted to raising awareness on this puritan attack on freedom: http://freethegods.blogspot.com /

    - scottdaveneUS June 3, 2009 11:45AM

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  • kagogo
    Late Term Abortion

    I won't answer the question posed by this article because to indulge it would be absurd.

    Rather I would like to mention the following:

    Very few ever acknowledge that late term abortion is almost exclusively performed when there is a risk of death or permanent injury to the mother or unborn child.

    Please consider your beliefs about late-term abortion under the following conditions :

    You are 7 months pregnant and you have just been told that your baby is suffering from a fatal disease of its tissues, which are also spreading to your own tissues, which will result in eventual death of the baby and infertility to you for the rest of your life.

    -- or --

    You have just learned that you have an aggressive form of cancer , and that you cannot receive chemotherapy treatment until after your child is born.

    These are only TWO examples of the countless dangerous medical situations people face every day when pregnant.

    I am sincerely interested in hearing an argument from someone who believes it is still wrong to have an abortion under circumstances like these.

    - kagogoUS June 3, 2009 1:04PM

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  • Mateo76
    Society dictates when Life begins...

    Let's just all agree for the sake of not executing abortion doctors and the women who've had abortions that Life begins when a breathing baby exits the birth canal.

    It would solve a lot of issues. I believe abortion is wrong, but I don't believe it's murder or a crime . I believe mutilating yourself is wrong, but it's not a crime. I believe taking unnecessary risks and committing suicide are both wrong, but they shouldn't be crimes.

    You own your body and whatever is growing inside. You can hire people to do stuff to your body, no matter how ghastly it may be. That's your right. The fetus isn't a baby until birth -- until it's a baby!!!

    Defining it this way may offend you, but try to be intellectually honest and accept that people who believe in God and who have abortions will have to answer to that god . You also need to accept that abortion is not the moral equivalent of murder just as killing in self defense and in war (bombing) is not the same as murder.

    There's a reason why we don't have funerals for miscarriages: society leans towards life beginning at birth. Until that is changed, society can't define abortion as murder and we can't execute abortionists.

    - Mateo76US June 3, 2009 1:40PM

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    • dannyboy
      defining human life

      I think a more effective way of pursuing your argument is to distinguish legal personhood from humanity. Science determines when human life begins, and the scientific consensus is that human life begins with conception.

      Legal personhood is another thing entirely. "Society" is able to determine when it feels particular humans should be entitled to the full rights of a person. This is the sort of argument used by slavery advocates looking for reasonable ways of denying rights to beings that were undeniably human but not generally favored by society .

      peace

      - dannyboyUS June 3, 2009 2:56PM

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      • Mateo76
        let's define it

        I was using Life to mean personhood. Conception represents potential Life or personhood, just like individual sperm and egg cells do. It's just one step closer... closer to a separate, distinctive, living, breathing person. A person that shares the same rights as we do. If it's not a person, it doesn't share those rights.

        As a side note, society can also define slavery, and what's tragic is that some of us spend 20-50% of our careers working just to fund the government. If we choose not to fund the government, we either have to be poor or go to jail. How this is not a form of slavery (according to society) completely baffles me.

        I have the right to my person and possessions, but what about what I peacefully create with them? If I create a product for someone else or provide them with labor, why should the government (or society) have a rightful claim to part of it? Shouldn't they ask before taking?

        - Mateo76US June 3, 2009 3:49PM

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        • dannyboy
          again, your use of the term 'life' is misleading

          If by 'potential life' you mean 'potential personhood', then you may have a logical argument to make.

          Otherwise, by referring to the conceptus as 'potential life' in the same way that gametes are 'potential life' is misleading.

          In this case, I prefer to stick with the science which demonstrates clearly that a conceptus is an actual individual human life that is qualitatively different from mere gametes.

          peace

          - dannyboyUS June 3, 2009 4:00PM

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          • Submariner
            The term life is inherently misleading...

            because it is not even scientifically defined with much consistency, at least not in English.

            Sperm and Eggs are "life". Gametes and zygotes and fetuses are life, just like moss and pancreases and uneaten fruit (I suppose fresh picked) are "life".

            But your language is partial. There is nothing individual about the life we are concerned with in abortion discourse. I submit that individuality is a dangerous illusion even for thriving organisms all over the kindgom of life, but that is for another discussion, though it illustrates the depth of the term.

            The vast majority of abortions, especially those conducted by medical practitioners, are done on non-viable fetuses, and the vast majority of the rest are done on fetuses that will fail to thrive.

            What I don't get is why 'everyone' is convinced a bunch of self destructive hairless apes are so damned important before they even take their own breath, but 'everyone' is equally convinced all the hairless apes are born into sin, indentured to a (some) supernatual being(s), and mostly good for little more than slave labor once they do start taking their own breath.

            I would like other qualities considered in this question. Like the capacity to suffer, which the mother has infinitely more of than an unborn child; and certainly Dr. Tiller did as well. Or perhaps appreciation for life, which again the unborn fetus has less of than than a Cow.

            Those that resort to pragmatism to support pro-choice are on the same grounds as those that do so to support executions. And both do little justice to the myriad spiritual, scientific, and philisophical approaches to ontology and life in general.

            If all men die, for instance, but not all men truely live, how much can we say about the life of a collection of cells with not personal activity? If the experts can demostrate that some types of criminals are immune to rehabilitation, what can we say about the hardships society endures to defer to the sanctity of life? If our gods contradict themselves on the value of life, is it not up to us to set that value? Certainly its not priceless, as we spend it left and right; even human life spent on endeavors and pursuits of all manner, voluntarily or otherwise.

            There is no end to this debate usually because the sides refuse to accept some common defitions for terms. It's all meaningles nitpicking and logical phallacies.

            What makes humanity sacred, if anything, is our capacity to appreciate ourselves and understand the circumstances and consequences of our lives. Not some biological measurements nor some dogmatic proclamations.

            In the larger context, the one with some depth and appreciation, as costly as abortion and execution are in terms of life, I am not convinved a woman should not retain power of life of her child until it is demonstrably viable and can thrive. That is to say nothing of the responsibility to parent right and well, and well before the brithday of a child.

            I should hope that goes without saying.

            - Submariner June 10, 2009 10:09PM

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  • ChrisB
    Vengeance, Not Protection

    "how is it possible to believe that fetuses are people with a right to life yet also believe that using deadly force to defend that right is wrong?"

    I believe it's permissible to kill someone to save the life of an innocent. But killing Tiller didn't save anyone because all of his "patients" can still go to someone else. Even killing all of the doctors who perform late-term abortions wouldn't count because there are so many early term abortions, they would just be a drop in the bucket.

    Killing tiller didn't save anyone; it was merely vigilante justice.

    Taking it upon yourself to be judge, jury, and executioner is something no sane, moral person should do -- which is exactly the pro-life position on abortion .

    - ChrisBUS June 3, 2009 1:42PM

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  • Elfking
    Yes its wrong!

    The very people that say life is valuable - kill someone - and have the audacity to say its right?

    I have noted that once a child is born - the concern for it 'falls off the map'. It is only when the child is unborn- that all these people scream for its safety; and value as a human.

    I gave up on ' abortion nuts' when I saw them throwing their own live children : in front of cars going into abortion clinics.

    Lets see them get involved with helping the mothers that decide to keep their babies. Most think the baby and the mother deserve any pain or suffering for children conceived out of wedlock etc. - especially if they are minority peoples.

    These people need to put their hearts: where their incredibly big ideologies are.

    - ElfkingUS June 3, 2009 2:27PM

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  • dannyboy
    Chris is right

    People want to turn the actions of this one crazy guy into a repudiation of the whole Pro-life movement and everyone who takes part in it. Such an approach is classic bigotry.

    I will presume that the author of this piece is not being ironic, but if he is not, that means that he is unaware of the large body of careful ethical reflection upon these very questions of which pretty much any educated Pro-life person will be aware.

    Were you upset when McCain tried to smear Obama because of his tangential association with a member of the Weather Underground? Did their violent tactics mean that all anti-war protesters are crazy hypocrites?

    It sounds to me like most of those commenting here have little interest in reasonable dialogue, so their criticisms of the reasonableness of the Pro-life position are risible.

    peace

    - dannyboyUS June 3, 2009 3:10PM

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  • Jerica
    So much outrage on both sides

    The problem is that two groups of people do not agree on the definition of certain words. Words like, "person" or "human" or "murder." There's never going to be understanding between us because we each live in a different world, so to speak. The pro lifers are going to be outraged that children are being murdered by the millions and the pro aborts are going to outraged that doctors are being murdered for doing something that is lawful. Each of us wants to change definitions and change laws. It is almost comical if you think about it because each side is so sure they're correct on the matter but who really knows? Maybe the best thing we can all do in the wake of this event is question ourselves and not be so proud to think we know the answers of the universe.

    - JericaUS June 3, 2009 8:05PM

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  • wardmama4
    No Wonder Tiller was Killed -

    You all are the very reason Tiller was murdered. What Tiller did, is indeed illegal. There is a Federal Ban on the 'partial-birth' (which is beyond hideous) form of abortion . If he did perform those, he was in violation of the abortion laws.

    I do believe that killing Tiller was murder. I also believe that what he does is also murder. And in the US, we still have the death penalty which I believe in those states that still have it, killing a child is one of the major criteria. Not everyone who goes into court gets convicted, not everyone who goes as a Death Penalty case gets it, not everyone who applies for a transplant goes onto the list - there are important criteria that apply. It is called Rules of Law. To ignore Laws is simply anarchy. Whether you believe in the Law or not.

    I will skip over all the rest simply to say, that as a person who would be called Pro-Life, I do support the Death Penalty and War - it is simple - there are criteria and reasons that do not conflict with my regard for Life. Simply stated - I do believe that there are reasons to Die or Kill that do not conflict with being 'pro' life. The pro-Life movement is indeed much more than simply anti-abortion. And therein lies another problem in this issue. The Pro-choice sees only one thing, one issue and all others are moot. And they view the other side as the same.

    What about contraception - I'd rather (as a taxpayer) pay for contraception than murder. And I resent beyond the pale being forced to financial support a action that I do not morally believe in. Roe v Wade is bad Law, and as usual when given an inch - the Left (which apparently has no morals) takes a mile. All on my dime.

    - wardmama4US June 4, 2009 6:37AM

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  • tgzoma
    There is no contradiction, Kwame.

    The notion that being pro-life and pro- death penalty are contradictory is illogical. Opposing abortion is the opposition of taking the innocent life of an unborn child. Supporting the death penalty is supporting the just punishment of murderers. Murder is the taking of an innocent human life. Homicide is, in the strict meaning of the term, the taking of a human life, generally. Don't conflate the two. They mean different things.

    - tgzomaUS June 4, 2009 6:25PM

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    • illusion
      There is a contradiction, tgzoma.

      The word LIFE is the key to where so-called Pro-lifers become illogical. It is a matter of semantics, but an important one.

      Being " pro-life " and "pro- death penalty " are contradictory and illogical in the simplest form of semantics.

      Let's simplify: You argue that being both 1) Pro-LIFE and 2) Pro-DEATH (penalty) is logical and congruent. It is not, when you consider the end result i.e. no longer living. I will show you with a simple logical construction of sufficient and necessary conditions :

      If you are pro-life then, you support life. The logical inverse of this statement is, If you don't support life, then you are not pro-life. How is this illogical?

      Adding a condition, i.e. if you are pro-life then you support the life of a fetus, undermines the integral term "life" because it adds an illogical qualifier that has to be attained in order to succeed. i.e. you can only be a fetus in order to qualify as "life" worth being protected.

      A more logical approach is:
      If you are anti-choice, then you are against a woman having the option to abort. The logical inverse of this statement would be, if you are not against a woman having the option to abort, then you are not anti-choice or rather, you would be pro-choice .

      Further,
      Murder is not necessarily the taking of an innocent human life. There are many "bad" people whose killers have been deemed murderers.

      The label murder is garnished on the actor when the requisite mindset of malice or aforethought is attributable to their actions. Malice is basically defined as intent to kill. Don't conflate the act of murder to the actor and innocence to the victim. They are separate and independent. They mean different things, and innocence is not a sufficient, nor a necessary condition for being murdered.

      What about people who were killed via the death penalty who turned out to be innocent? Where is the justice for them? You put waaay too much faith in the efficacy of the legal system and jurors in being correct in their decisions. What about DAs looking to keep up their conviction rate, and jurors biased by race, ethnicity, etc?

      - illusionUS June 10, 2009 4:24PM

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  • countryboy
    Any one out there

    Is there any prochoice people out there that thinks abortion is wrong?
    And why?

    - countryboyUS June 5, 2009 3:45PM

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    • Submariner
      Contra-Contra?

      I am pro-choice . I am also a person. I think that some abortion 's might be wrong.

      For instance, I have met young women with a great deal of psychological stress caused by experiences with abortion. Hindsight is a catalyst for guilt in some cases, or in others there is some other dilemma or tragedy that led to the abortion. In general it seems the least favorable of all contraceptives.

      There are I am sure many cases where external pressues led to a child or woman having an abortion they did not want. This is a subversion of the choice, though.

      I am certain that using laws or some other rules to force a woman to carry a child is wrong, however. Women should have the power over life since they are the cradle of it.

      I have no respectful response for those that would want similar deference or protection for sperm. Although, I doubt there are many.

      - Submariner June 10, 2009 10:20PM

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  • Martin Brock
    False choice

    I don't see the logical contradiction that Sullum implies, but I don't have a serious problem with murdering Tiller either. At the same time, I don't want a state empowered to sentence him to death.

    - Martin BrockUS June 5, 2009 5:46PM

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    • Submariner
      Of course you do not...

      ...if you can in someway make sense of the view you have stated here.

      Pro-Life is the very simple opposite of Pro-Death.

      Being Pro Execution or Pro Murder and not being Pro Government Death Penalty is just puerile anarchy, as I see it. Please explain how I might be wrong.

      - Submariner June 10, 2009 10:24PM

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    • countryboy
      kill a killer

      You don't murder a killer,Its called execution.
      So your saying,I dont have a serious problem with executing tiller.Who else you would like to execute?

      - countryboyUS June 15, 2009 9:11PM

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  • ieatcomputers
    Killing is Wrong No Matter Which Way You Look At It

    Two wrongs DO NOT make a right. There will always be a peaceful way, but most of the time people will no utilize it.

    - ieatcomputersUS June 12, 2009 12:31PM

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  • JBarnett
    Am I reading this correctly?

    Is this man actually asking why gunning down an abortion provider is wrong?
    Well boy howdy! Thump your bible , pass the ammo and hand me my banjo!

    This country/world is getting too crazy...makes me want to run away and hide in the deep woods of, oh, I don't know, maybe somewhere in New Zealand.

    - JBarnettUS June 18, 2009 8:10PM

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    • quantummechanik
      I'm still sticking with my original assertion

      This is a somewhat tongue in cheek look at the hypocrisy of people who act insane around the murder of thousands of human beings, but then say they want a cautious response. If you believe that abortion is the same as murder, then you are ethically bound to stop it with the same impoetus as you would stop someone who routinely butchered innocent born people. If you're saying "No, it's wrong to kill this man", you're taking a very different stance than you usually do.

      - quantummechanikUS June 27, 2009 10:06PM

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  • JWINGEORGIA
    All Life Is Precious

    I am pro-life and this killing is wrong.
    The Bible tells us not to Judge, that is Gods realm.
    I believe in protecting my family and my life.
    I have pointed a gun at another human being in this situation.
    If you have humanity in your heart you pray you won't have to pull the trigger. In my case God prevailed.
    Our world and our society have lowered the bar on protecting life.
    I live outside of Atlanta, I believe more people are killed in violent acts in the metro area each day than they are in Iraq.
    This is all symptomatic.
    Blessings

    - JWINGEORGIAUS June 20, 2009 5:08AM

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  • zaneman1
    Because....

    It makes the pro-life movement look like a bunch of violent hypocrites.

    - zaneman1US June 27, 2009 12:54AM

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    • jxzac
      not at all. it's afact that your are evil.

      It would be nice to list and find all people of your kind. I would have no problem with you being termed, unworthy of life. Death of an innocent and death of a convicted murder hinges on clear destiction. How this means nothing to you is a testament that you are a liar. I would conclude it societies obligation to destroy you.

      - jxzac June 27, 2009 10:32PM

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      • quantummechanik
        Attention, OP

        http://www.seeingtheforest.com/archives/2005/12/repubicans_drop.htm

        Read this article on code words, and then reread this guy's statements.

        - quantummechanikUS June 28, 2009 9:47AM

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        • Alayna Staggers
          Ten Commandments say

          "Thou shall not kill."

          How much more of this discussion go on. It must just be entertainment .

          Pro-Life movement did not kill Tiller.

          - Alayna StaggersUS June 28, 2009 4:03PM

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          • MrBook
            with some exceptions

            That commandment seems to get broken a great deal... So it is clearly not an absolute statement. Indeed a more accurate translation would be "Thou shall not murder ".

            No, the Pro-Life movement did not kill Tiller... However the language used by important members of the pro-life movement is what led to this killing.

            - MrBookUS June 29, 2009 6:38AM

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            • Alayna Staggers
              Tiller-guilty of his own doing

              It would take a very weak minded or mentally ill individual to be impressed enough to actually kill someone. As much as I did not like Tiller, the thought of murdering him never struck my mind. We as Christians pray for God to take action against sinners. We do not partake in God's decesions or take it upon ourselves to think we are capable of doing His job. If Tiller had any other occupation, he would probably still be alive. But as you know, he was Tiller the killer of unborn babies. The language of abortion will follow him and others like him. They maim, mutilate, decapitate, and dismember tiny, human lives. I am not the one who made this up. The baby killers are the ones who choose to murder innocent lives. There is no other way of describiing them.

              - Alayna StaggersUS June 29, 2009 11:04AM

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  • jkk5us
    Murder is Murder

    If we were still living in a just society , the government would be protecting the lives of the partially born, and Tiller would be tried and executed for murder . That does not change the fact that vigilantism is likewise unlawful and should be punished as well. Tiller is now before the judge of all the earth, and I can assure you that he now has a proper understanding of his murderous ways.

    - jkk5usUS July 1, 2009 2:09PM

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    • oneoldman
      life

      Once had a man I worked with explain that he was Pro-Life and since I wasn't I should be killed. Then he failed to understand why I laughed in his face.

      - oneoldmanUS July 19, 2009 1:47PM

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