Opposing Views: Was Father's Conviction in "Death by Prayer" Case Just?

Was Father's Conviction in "Death by Prayer" Case Just?

Video by Opposing Views Editorial Staff
(August 02, 2009) in Religion / Religion in Society

A Wisconsin father whose sick daughter died after he chose to pray instead of seek medical attention was found guilty of second-degree reckless homicide yesterday.

Dale Neuman, 47, convened a prayer meeting for his eleven-year-old daughter, who suffered from diabetes, when she became so ill she could no longer eat or speak. Without medical attention the girl passed away on the floor of their home.

Neuman's wife was also found guilty of the same charge.

OpposingViews asks: Should Neuman have been found guilty of murder?

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Was Father's Conviction in "Death by Prayer" Case Just?

IMHO

They were guilty. Very guilty.

- oneoldman August 2, 2009 3:18PM

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- Guilty - Yes, Murder - No
  
  No doubt they are responsible for her death. But, I believe that murder requires intent to kill. These people were tragically stupid, but I doubt they intended for her to die. This appears to be Manslaughter.
  
  - Russell Fine September 10, 2009 7:48AM
  
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Iam not the judge

But God did make MD's
Why would you not send your child to the Doc.

- countryboy August 2, 2009 6:00PM

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- God didn't make MD's
  
  God didn't make MD's as a matter of fact medical science didn't develop until people started to give up on the notion that disease was punishment or a test of faith from God. This is an example of why we gave up on that way of thinking.
  
  - harrygodzilla August 5, 2009 1:47PM
  
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  - Sorry to hear you don't think God made you
    
    I think you, as well as MD's (Medical Doctors) were made by an all powerful and loving God. I don't believe MD's (nor you) evolved from inorganic rocks or primordial soup that became apes that became humans. If you think that is " science ", then maybe you should do a little more research on the matter, but that's a different debate.
    
    Jesus Christ, nor his followers, however, never said disease was punishment. That lie is started by those against faith, and propogated by, people like you.
    
    By the way, if you look at western history, all the scientists were people of FAITH, and hospitals were started by people of FAITH - ever ask yourself why many are named after Biblical people? St. Luke, St. Mary, St. John, or named "Christian" or "Jewish" hospital, etc.
    
    I'd be curious to hear about what faith-less people have as a legacy.
    
    - frenchr August 5, 2009 11:05PM
    
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    - re: Sorry to hear you don't think God made you
      
      Most of the halts in the advancement of medicine (and science ) can be attributed to religion . Whether its a debate over the morality of embryonic stem cell research or the catholic churh banning the teachings of egyptian and greek medicine. As for scientist being people of faith thats simply not true maybe the ones you hear about. Einstien was jewish and I don't know how christian thomas edison was, but I'm pretty sure most scientist are atheist and the ones who are men of faith don't allow faith to stop progress. We live in a christian society thats why there are so many christian hospitals. The point is this man let his faith get in the way of his common sense and let a little girl die because of it.
      
      - harrygodzilla August 6, 2009 11:58AM
      
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      - Embryonic stem cell research
        
        Please do some research on stem cell research before saying that is progress - it is actually a good example where athiests are stopping medical advancements by blocking adult stem cell research (which is much more promising and has proven results). They continue to let their political views of abortion (i.e. killing babies ) on demand get in the way of good science .
        
        Einstien was Jewish - yes that shows he had a faith in a creator as well.
        
        Other examples include Newton, Pascal, Galileo, Kepler, and on and on.
        
        As stated above, we don't let faith come in the way of seeking the help of Medicine or Medical Doctors.
        
        - frenchr August 8, 2009 4:53PM
        
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        And who are these athiest?
        
        Ok first off I said einstien was jewish I never said there were no religious scientist or doctors . Secondly what athiest are saying stop adult stem cell research ? Ive never said adult stem cell research was less important than embryonic stem cell research. Maybe you view people who want abortions a certain way and you think I demand abortions. I am personally against abortions and would not want someone I got pregnant to get one but I do believe its a womans right to choose. Lastly none of what you have said has anything to do with whether or not you believe Dale Nuemen's conviction was just. Yes the 2 of you maybe don't allow your faith to interfere with the care of your children , but there are plenty of people who do.
        
        - harrygodzilla August 8, 2009 9:51PM
        
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        Answer to your questions
        
        First, a coupl of examples against adult stem cell research include: Barack Obama and Vanessa Cullins of Planned Parenthood both have stated adult stem cell research was a waist of time and money even though it has proven to be more promising than embrionic http://www.citizenlink.org/pdfs/fosi/bioethics/Science_Reveals.pdf
        
        Second, I do believe the conviction was justified.
        
        - frenchr August 9, 2009 7:26PM
        
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  - That's not true at all
    
    Medical Science has been around since Egypt.
    
    - quantummechanik August 7, 2009 12:19AM
    
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    - The Egyptians Weren't Christians
      
      Anyways, it is a known medical fact that the only thing that causes irreversible death is brain death. So the Egyptians didn't know everything...
      
      But I have to point out that the only way to make progress academically is to STOP attributing everything you don't understand to some sky spirit. "Why is the sky blue? God did it. How do I heal the sick person? Let God do it. " etc. The scientific method was invented by a Muslim, Alhazan. Attributing things to God only leads to an academic dead end. This is similar to that seen during the DARK AGES. Also interesting to note is that the church had control during that period, and they blew it. Thankfully we escaped that dreadful time and now can research without persecution.
      
      - ModmanGlest August 15, 2009 8:04PM
      
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      - A known medical fact
        
        That medical fact that you have...doesn't make any sense. Irreversible death?
        
        No one in academia uses G-d as an end point for research. However, if you're advocating a complete nonconsideration of moral standards for avenues of research...that's a pretty big problem.
        
        - quantummechanik September 1, 2009 12:00PM
        
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        But in the church...
        
        God is definitely enough verification for just about anything. I mean, they could go on crusades, have the inquisition, and all with little question of morality.
        
        Oh, and what I mean by the brain death thing is that if your heart dies, you still could get another heart, and you'll be fine afterward. But if your brain dies, and even if brain transplants were possible, you would have different memories, those of whom you got the brain from. In addition, if someone stops breathing, and their heart is no longer beating, you could save them maybe, but only if the brain is still alive.
        
        - ModmanGlest September 2, 2009 7:36PM
        
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  - God did make MD's
    
    As a Christian God did make MD"s. What ever you are or came from or think you can from you must deal with that yourself.
    
    - countryboy August 9, 2009 4:36PM
    
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just for the sake

of crosslinking:

http://www.opposingviews.com/questions/can-prayer-heal

Yes, I know it's anecdotal.

- tek August 2, 2009 10:36PM

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- It can't
  
  It's been established by now that prayer does not, in fact, heal.
  
  - WayOfTheDodo August 5, 2009 11:58AM
  
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  - Established by whom?
    
    Just because many in the medical establishment have not seen that prayer can heal, doesn't mean it never does. I have myself seen healings in response to prayer
    
    (Actually, prayer by itself does not heal. The healing comes from God, or the Universe, working with the faith of people involved.)
    
    Still, doctors can heal too. These parents were criminally negligent in not seeking the best care for their daughter.
    
    (Did they have health insurance ? More importantly, did the insurance companies offer to pay for treatment?)
    
    - jochanaan August 5, 2009 1:07PM
    
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    - What you have seen would have happened anyway
      
      In 2009, it shouldn't be necessary to point out that prayer does not heal physical illness. People die all the time while others are praying for their recovery. Some recover against the odds, with prayer. Others recover against the odds without prayer. But these are always illnesses from which recovery was possible, albeit very unlikely. But one thing we have NEVER seen is anybody growing a new limb when the original one was severed. If we ever do see this, it will have been delivered by medicine , not prayer.
      
      - Mark D August 5, 2009 1:45PM
      
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      - How do you know what I've seen?
        
        Once recently--this year, in fact--I prayed for a friend who had serious back problems. The results were so dramatic and immediate I call them miraculous. I saw her body move as her spine straightened, and she reported powerful shifts in her back. So sometimes prayer does work. Or will you now claim that I didn't see what I saw?
        
        The difficulty, of course, is that it works so seldom. (Lack of faith?) But "seldom" does not equal "never."
        
        Still, as I said, it is criminally negligent not to seek medical care too--if we can.
        
        - jochanaan August 5, 2009 4:48PM
        
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        How do you know?
        
        And how do you know the recovery was attributable to prayer and wouldn't have happened anyway? Come to think of it, if god is all knowing and all caring, why do we have to pray for healing at all? Why doesn't god just fix it anyway? What is he doing, sitting up there in heaven seeing appalling suffering and simply choosing to ignore it if there are not enough prayers offered up to ask to fix it? What kind of uncaring god is that?
        
        - MrPogle August 5, 2009 5:59PM
        
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        I know.
        
        I was there. You weren't. I admit I have no evidence other than my own faith (and my friend's), but I am comvinced. This isn't the sort of thing that makes the news, but it does happen among people who really believe in Jesus. And it does not preclude seeking medical help, or alternative care if that's indicated.
        
        - jochanaan August 5, 2009 8:18PM
        
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        It still would have happened anyway
        
        It may appear to you that your prayer caused her recovery. She was sick, you prayed, she immediately recovered. But what if at the moment you prayed you had instead hummed the Simpsons theme and then witnessed the same recovery? Would you put the recovery down to Danny Elfman or your own singing ability?
        
        You must surely accept that some unlikely recoveries occur with no prayer at all, just as they sometimes do while accompanied by prayer? So, does the fact that "it works so seldom" not suggest to you that maybe it doesn't work at all? Surely the logical assessment would be that prayer 'probably' makes no difference?
        
        What do you mean "lack of faith?" do you mean to say that if prayer results in recovery, then God did it, but if prayer is unsuccessful, then it's your fault for not having enough faith? So God can't lose then.
        
        I'm glad you agree that withholding medical care in favour of prayer is criminally negligent. As long as you believe that, there is absolutely no harm in also believing that prayer can help. It certainly can't hurt, just so long as the doctors are in charge.
        
        - Mark D August 5, 2009 6:34PM
        
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        Ultimately, God decides...
        
        ...who He heals. I don't know why He heals some and not others, but I do know He heals some. I know He healed my friend. And I think that, if you had been there and seen what I saw, you would have been forced to acknowledge that something special happened. It was that powerful and sudden.
        
        (If I had been singing The Simpsons' theme, I still would have been praying as I sang. I'm that kind of person. :) )
        
        - jochanaan August 5, 2009 8:21PM
        
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    - Really?
      
      It's interesting to note that every religion on Earth (I think) is convinced that their prayer works, yet is not proven in any conclusive studies. Seriously, if it was working at all, I think there would be a far greater success rate for a particular religion.
      
      I think if God was real, he would somehow conclusively PROVE himself, maybe through medical prayer, and so that there wasn't even a shadow of a doubt. Of course you'll come up with some convoluted reason why this is not true, but the reality is you'll be grasping at threads.
      
      - ModmanGlest August 15, 2009 8:09PM
      
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what a can of worms

religion , medicine and the legal system...
a royal can of worms.

what is a body? how does it function best?
what is a mind? how does it affect the body?
what is dis-ease? how does it occur?
what is healing? how does it occur?
what is real prayer ? what's it all about?
who is truly negligent and who is truly responsible?
blame, shame, guilt...
fingers pointing here there and everywhere.

so many assumptions --
the assumption here is that the medical system can save a body...
and that is a 'good thing'.
"the operation was a success but the patient died."
and you can keep a body alive while the patient is despairing...
but will she be truly alive?

i suggest we all get very serious about real health .
dis-ease is not necessary but it is so common.
why? go DEEPER, darlings. go DEEPER.
superficial answers will never heal.

- Patricia Robinett August 3, 2009 11:37AM

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- There isn't a dash in disease
  
  but there may have been an interruption in medication .
  
  - quantummechanik August 3, 2009 11:51AM
  
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  - dis-ease = disease
    
    first, all bodily stress and disease come from physical, mental and/or emotional stress... the body is a communication device. it feeds back our mental and emotional state. clear the stress, distress and you will clear the body of disease. i have seen it work often.
    
    if you truly are a quantum mechanik, then you know that thought is the active force in the universe. if thoughts are peaceful, then there is health . if thoughts are fearful, then there is dis-ease. the entire body responds to our thoughts... not just with smiles & frowns, but muscles clench or relax all the way down to the level of vital organs and cells.
    
    then there is the factor of cooperating with nature and eating a simple, natural, healthy, life-giving diet . few in america do that. why not put industry on trial for manufactured foods that cause diabetes in the first place? many also recover by changing their diets.
    
    and last, medication has its own repercussions, you know... they're called side-effects. every pharmaceutical drug has a long list of poisonous effects. medicines trade one problem for another. take one medicine and you will inevitably need another. squeeze a balloon in one spot and it will pop up in another.
    
    the 'father of modern medicine', hippocrates, said, "let food be your medicine." i agree.
    
    modern medicine is not about health but pathology. if it was truly about health, there would be no cancer , no heart disease, no diabetes... but there is little profit in health... and that is the bottom line (pun intended). :)
    
    - Patricia Robinett August 3, 2009 12:57PM
    
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    - modern medicine
      
      “first, all bodily stress and disease come from physical, mental and/or emotional stress... the body is a communication device. it feeds back our mental and emotional state. clear the stress, distress and you will clear the body of disease. i have seen it work often.”
      
      In some cases this can be true… excessive stress can lead to medical problems, but it is not the only cause of it.
      
      “f you truly are a quantum mechanik, then you know that thought is the active force in the universe. if thoughts are peaceful, then there is health . if thoughts are fearful, then there is dis-ease. the entire body responds to our thoughts... not just with smiles & frowns, but muscles clench or relax all the way down to the level of vital organs and cells.”
      
      Wow, not at all… quantum mechanics says nothing about thoughts as an active force in the universe. The ‘observer’ referenced in some experiments is not a living thing, it is an abstract.
      
      “then there is the factor of cooperating with nature and eating a simple, natural, healthy, life-giving diet . few in america do that. why not put industry on trial for manufactured foods that cause diabetes in the first place? many also recover by changing their diets.”
      
      Food, or more specifically being overweight, can cause diabetes… but it is not necessarily the cause. There are genetic factors as well. Being careful with ones diet can help manage diabetes, but it is not a cure for it.
      
      “and last, medication has its own repercussions, you know... they're called side-effects. every pharmaceutical drug has a long list of poisonous effects. medicines trade one problem for another. take one medicine and you will inevitably need another. squeeze a balloon in one spot and it will pop up in another. “
      
      There are potential side effects to any treatment, but just because it is on the list does not meant that it will always occur. One can take a course of medication and experience no side effects at all (as was the case when I had to take penicillin when I had pneumonia back in middle school).
      
      “the 'father of modern medicine', hippocrates, said, "let food be your medicine." i agree. “
      
      Except that he lived before chemistry and biology existed, and used the humorism theory to explain sickness… he had no knowledge of germ theory, blood chemistry, genetics, or any other facet of modern medicine.
      
      “modern medicine is not about health but pathology. if it was truly about health, there would be no cancer , no heart disease, no diabetes... but there is little profit in health... and that is the bottom line (pun intended). :) “
      
      Except that those diseases did exist long before the existence of modern medicine. They did not occur as often because people were to busy dying of things that modern medicine now cures (like infections or injuries).
      
      - MrBook August 3, 2009 5:11PM
      
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- depth
  
  “what is a body? how does it function best?”
  
  The body is defined as the collection of organs that make up the human body… how it functions ‘best’ depends on a large number of factors (if there truly is a best way for the body to function)
  
  “what is a mind? how does it affect the body?”
  
  An interesting question, and a rather philosophical one as well… If the body is the ‘hardware’ then the mind is the ‘software’. And since the mind controls much of the bodies operation then it has a huge effect on the body.
  
  “what is dis-ease? how does it occur?”
  
  A number of things, based on a number of factors… diseases can be caused by bacteria, parasites, viruses, genetics, even chemicals (due to deficiencies or surpluses of chemicals).
  
  “what is healing? how does it occur? “
  
  Healing is the act of the body recovering function following interference by injury or illness
  
  “what is real prayer ? what's it all about? “
  
  Prayer is the act of invoking the aid of a supernatural / mythological entity for assistance or praise.
  
  “who is truly negligent and who is truly responsible?
  blame, shame, guilt...
  fingers pointing here there and everywhere. “
  
  In this case the negligent party are the parents who stat by and did nothing while their child died horribly.
  
  “the assumption here is that the medical system can save a body...
  and that is a 'good thing'. “
  
  If by ‘save’ you mean ‘enable to continue to function’ then yes the medical system could have done that… which I think that the girl who died would have said was a good thing… if she hadn’t died.
  
  "the operation was a success but the patient died."
  
  If the goal of the operation was to resolve a specific issue then yet the operation can succeed while the patient still dies due to other reasons or the trauma of the operation itself.
  
  “and you can keep a body alive while the patient is despairing...
  but will she be truly alive? “
  
  An interesting question as to how long a body should be sustained… however in this case since the child had a treatable disease that could have led to her leading a long life I don’t see how this is relevant.
  
  “i suggest we all get very serious about real health .
  dis-ease is not necessary but it is so common.
  why?”
  
  Necessary (or not) is not really an accurate way look at diseases… they are just a function of the natural world like anything else.
  
  “go DEEPER, darlings. go DEEPER.
  superficial answers will never heal.”
  
  This makes no sense at all.
  
  - MrBook August 3, 2009 5:02PM
  
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  - so many thoughts... so little time and space
    
    i see why you had to make 2 posts...
    
    mrBook... please realize these are my musings, 'you' is not to be taken personally. i have thought a great deal about each of these issues because each of them has been a factor in my decline into illness... and i had to turn to their opposites to get well.
    
    try a little metaphysics... beyond physics. going deeper into the cause of dis-ease, you will find the root and never need to be sick. thought is the maker of this world of that appears to be quite solid... and it is... within its own system. when you sleep and dream, the dream seems quite real -- until you wake up. a lot of people are waking up now from this dream that we consider to be ordinary reality.
    
    the parents of that girl thought they could pray to something outside 'there' somewhere that would zap the child with wellness. fact is, her body had undoubtedly been asking for help for a very long time -- either physical help via a better diet or mental help via better thoughts, or emotional help via better feelings -- and probably a combination...
    
    1) manufactured foods with extremes of highly processed foods, salt and sugar, sour and spicy... extremely 'tasty' yet addictive and difficult for people raised on them from birth to see objectively and to disengage from... foods are drugs... they can serve as ' medicine ' and heal or they can work as 'street drugs' and harm.
    
    2) fearful, negative, destructive thoughts -- including religious thoughts of 'sin' and 'sinner' and 'guilt' and ' jesus died because of you', ' god is judging you', 'you're going to go to hell', punishment, and so on. life may seem to be a bit meaningless if looked on as a prelude to hell. who wouldn't want to check out. i tried to when i was 5 or 6.
    
    3) feelings of fear aka powerlessness, anger, despair, sorrow, grief, rage, fury, horror, etc, originating at birth for most of us who went through the hospital horrors, including forceps delivery, cesarean births, harsh handling by medical personnel after birth, and last but not least -- circumcision . if an adult went through what a baby goes through, the adult would be reeling. might even think of it as assault and battery... rape. i suspect many infants come out of the hospital with PTSD. boys who were circumcised react far more intensely to vaccinations at age 6 months than those who were left intact.
    
    to be continued in next message
    
    - Patricia Robinett August 3, 2009 7:18PM
    
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    - roots
      
      “try a little metaphysics... beyond physics. going deeper into the cause of dis-ease, you will find the root and never need to be sick. thought is the maker of this world of that appears to be quite solid... and it is... within its own system. when you sleep and dream, the dream seems quite real -- until you wake up. a lot of people are waking up now from this dream that we consider to be ordinary reality.”
      
      That’s certainly a pleasant thought… but there is no actual proof that ‘thought is the maker of the world’. The universe existed loooooooong before we were around and does not care for the thoughts / feelings of self replicating self amusing proteins squeezed between layers of clay.
      
      We get sick for a number of reasons… a new bacteria enters our system or a genetic flaw causes a cell to become cancerous (as well as others)
      
      “either physical help via a better diet or mental help via better thoughts, or emotional help via better feelings -- and probably a combination... “
      
      No, she was diabetic… she needed insulin. All the happy thoughts in the universe can’t change that. A managed diet can help control diabetes but it is not a ‘cure’ as the underlying condition is still there.
      
      “foods are drugs... they can serve as ' medicine ' and heal or they can work as 'street drugs' and harm. “
      
      Or they can provide the sustenance needed to survive… so what is the point here?
      
      “2) fearful, negative, destructive thoughts -- including religious thoughts of 'sin' and 'sinner' and 'guilt' and ' jesus died because of you', ' god is judging you', 'you're going to go to hell', punishment, and so on. life may seem to be a bit meaningless if looked on as a prelude to hell. who wouldn't want to check out. i tried to when i was 5 or 6. “
      
      Fear of an eternal punishment after death is psychologically damaging, and this can contribute to stress… but these factors are already well known in modern medicine.
      
      "3) feelings of fear aka powerlessness, anger, despair, sorrow, grief, rage, fury, horror, etc, originating at birth for most of us who went through the hospital horrors, including forceps delivery, cesarean births, harsh handling by medical personnel after birth, and last but not least – circumcision ”
      
      Forced delivery? We all have to be born at some point. And C-Sections are most often done for medical reasons, not just for kicks.
      
      “i suspect many infants come out of the hospital with PTSD. boys who were circumcised react far more intensely to vaccinations at age 6 months than those who were left intact. “
      
      [Citation Needed] on that last bit.
      
      - MrBook August 4, 2009 7:01PM
      
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  - continued from previous post...
    
    4) overwhelm from environmental toxins and pollutants of many kinds including visual, audio and tactile -- many of which are called ' entertainment '. movies take you through the ups and downs of one or more lifetimes in just a couple of hours. tv hits you with so many stimuli in an hour that you can only sit with your mouth open in a state of trance. the 'news' has to go all over the world to find enough horrible stories to keep our attention, but they depict them as if they are happening in our own back yard... 'be afraid... be very afraid!' music is loud and raucous, hammering and pounding... can't be good for ears or brains or hearts...
    
    5) expectations to perform at home, school, work -- to operate complex machines, computers, cars , cellphones, to be 'cool' and 'acceptable' and to excel -- all this is expected to be taken in stride, of course... no nervousness allowed -- or you are labeled with ADD or worse. heck, even just gossip and meanness in school is a huge stressor, let alone all the new demands on kids . ridicule, fear of humiliation... so many things.
    
    each of these stressors is considered 'normal' in our society . this may be the 'norm', but it is FAR from natural and we are not usually at peace, not in deep peace, breathing fully, freely and deeply. humans in this era live lives of tremendous tension that exceeds anything anyone has ever known on an ongoing basis in all of history.
    
    medicine has gone through many stages. it went through an 'evil spirit' phase. it went through a 'masturbation' phase. it went through a 'germ' phase. now it's in a 'virus/bacteria' phase (a variation of the germ theory).
    
    on the other hand, there is ample evidence that a truly healthy body can be exposed to germs & viruses and not succumb... so where is the real power? in the 'boogeyman'? or in the state of positive health ? and it is here modern medicine flounders. it focuses not on health but on pathology. it is theory-based, not evidence-based. the problem is that all medical theories focus on the body as if it is what you are. people who go deeper know that the body is only a vehicle and who and what you truly are is the life force that moves the body.
    
    in china (or japan -- can't remember offhand) they used to pay the healer as long as they stayed well. if they got sick, they didn't pay him. someday when medicine truly matures and ceases to have profit as its god , ceases to need people to be sick so it can flourish, it may actually begin to research health... asking, what IS health?... how DO you keep a body in good shape?...
    
    human bodies that get sick are merely responding naturally to an overwhelming amount of unnatural stimuli AND they are giving many eloquent clues along the way that they need help. modern medicine usually doesn't step in until the patient is very, very ill... in need of 'medicine' or 'surgery'.
    
    it is highly likely the parents had no clue how to help their daughter on any of those levels. they themselves look rather sick. they themselves are products of this modern world.
    
    - Patricia Robinett August 3, 2009 7:18PM
    
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    - flounders pt1
      
      “4) overwhelm from environmental toxins and pollutants of many kinds including visual, audio and tactile -- many of which are called ' entertainment '. movies take you through the ups and downs of one or more lifetimes in just a couple of hours.”
      
      Really? I’ve never been to a movie that took me ‘through the ups and downs of one or more lifetimes in just a couple of hours.’ I have been to some good movies… but not that good.
      
      “ tv hits you with so many stimuli in an hour that you can only sit with your mouth open in a state of trance.”
      
      Is that your opinion or can it be shown objectively. I know that when I’m watching TV I’m usually joking around with friends.
      
      “ the 'news' has to go all over the world to find enough horrible stories to keep our attention, but they depict them as if they are happening in our own back yard... 'be afraid... be very afraid!'”
      
      Media over exaggeration is an issue, but it is a cultural one… not a medical one (unless you can show some studies that reveal otherwise).
      
      “music is loud and raucous, hammering and pounding... can't be good for ears or brains or hearts...”
      
      Can’t or isn’t? It is a very important distinction… Can’t means that you think that it cannot be good, isn’t means that you know (and can demonstrate) that it cannot be good. It has been shown that excessive loud music does damage the ears… but can you show that it does more then that?
      
      “5) expectations to perform at home, school, work -- to operate complex machines, computers, cars , cellphones, to be 'cool' and 'acceptable' and to excel -- all this is expected to be taken in stride, of course... no nervousness allowed -- or you are labeled with ADD or worse. heck, even just gossip and meanness in school is a huge stressor, let alone all the new demands on kids . ridicule, fear of humiliation... so many things.”
      
      None of these things are really new. People have always been expected to perform at work or school and perform complex tasks. The actual diagnosis of ADD may be new but the base impression, that an individual is not up to the task at hand, remains.
      
      “each of these stressors is considered 'normal' in our society . this may be the 'norm', but it is FAR from natural and we are not usually at peace, not in deep peace, breathing fully, freely and deeply. humans in this era live lives of tremendous tension that exceeds anything anyone has ever known on an ongoing basis in all of history.”
      
      I don’t know about that… the stress of ‘will this windows patch crash the server?’ seems far less then ‘will I starve to death this winter because the harvest isn’t good?’
      
      “ medicine has gone through many stages. it went through an 'evil spirit' phase. it went through a 'masturbation' phase. it went through a 'germ' phase. now it's in a 'virus/bacteria' phase (a variation of the germ theory).”
      
      Yes, it went from supernatural explanations to natural ones… which have been refined steadily over the centuries. Prayer and the like are steps backwards towards the supernatural.
      
      “on the other hand, there is ample evidence that a truly healthy body can be exposed to germs & viruses and not succumb...”
      
      Yes, this is well known. A healthy individual is better able to fight of an infection… but they are not immune to infections (or other forms of illness)
      
      “so where is the real power? in the 'boogeyman'? or in the state of positive health ?”
      
      The real power? What does that even mean? Germs are not a boogeyman, they are real and they cause illness in individuals. Not being sick does help prevent further illness but it is not immunity to illness.
      
      “and it is here modern medicine flounders. it focuses not on health but on pathology. it is theory-based, not evidence-based.”
      
      Actually modern medicine is very much evidence based (that is what studies are), it is the ‘alternative’ forms that are sorely lacking in evidence.
      
      - MrBook August 4, 2009 7:01PM
      
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    - flounders pt2
      
      “the problem is that all medical theories focus on the body as if it is what you are. people who go deeper know that the body is only a vehicle and who and what you truly are is the life force that moves the body. “
      
      How do they know that? What evidence is offered in support of that hypothosis?
      
      “in china (or japan -- can't remember offhand) they used to pay the healer as long as they stayed well. if they got sick, they didn't pay him. someday when medicine truly matures and ceases to have profit as its god , ceases to need people to be sick so it can flourish, it may actually begin to research health ... asking, what IS health?... how DO you keep a body in good shape?...”
      
      If that is the case then what is the incentive to treat people who are sick? They seem like the ones who need it the most.
      
      Most people see doctors when they are sick, not when they are healthy. There are dieticians and physical trainers to help maintain a healthy lifestyle.
      
      “human bodies that get sick are merely responding naturally to an overwhelming amount of unnatural stimuli AND they are giving many eloquent clues along the way that they need help.”
      
      How does the body respond naturally to something unnatural? How much of this can be demonstrated Scientifically?
      
      “modern medicine usually doesn't step in until the patient is very, very ill... in need of 'medicine' or 'surgery'.”
      
      True, modern medicine only steps in when there is an issue, though there is preventative care for individuals who are known to be prone to diseases (such as cancer or heart disease).
      
      “it is highly likely the parents had no clue how to help their daughter on any of those levels. they themselves look rather sick. they themselves are products of this modern world.”
      
      Obviously they were aware enough of their daughter’s condition to be found negligent. Those last few days it would have been apparent to anyone that the girl was in dire need of medical attention.
      
      - MrBook August 4, 2009 7:03PM
      
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      - ok. whatever. :)
        
        well, mrbook, we apparently have had very different life experiences. it sounds like you are still very much in line with the conventional way of thinking. good for you. we each choose our life path. i chose to know what is beyond the body. but my experience is relevant only to me. people who have had similar experiences usually enjoy each other's stories. people who have not had that experience can't relate at all. it's as if we live in different worlds... very different life experiences.
        
        if you want a citation on the vaccination - circumcision link, it's not hard to find. google circumcision vaccination pain. this shows up at the top of the list...
        www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio /
        http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736 (96)10316-0/abstract
        
        if you want to learn how i learned what i learned, then perhaps it will take you more years or more pain or ? until something inspires you to go beyond the body, beyond the system of things as humans have defined life.
        
        have you ever read books about near-death experiences? put it together with world scriptures? there's something big... very big. very beautiful. i need to get back to it... am writing a book about it so i don't have time to chitchat further.
        
        you believe in medicine . i do not. good book: confessions of a medical heretic by dr. robert mendelsohn. yes, there are fortunes to be made from sickness... not from health . :) stay healthy.
        
        as for tv... i am going by what i see in the cartoons... of old couch potatoes using remotes, drinking beer... i personally don't watch it. never did like canned laughter. have too many other, more wonderful things to do with my time. :)
        
        best wishes to you!
        
        - Patricia Robinett August 4, 2009 10:59PM
        
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        yeah, whatever
        
        "i chose to know what is beyond the body. but my experience is relevant only to me"
        
        As is most self-delusion.
        
        "go beyond the body, beyond the system of things as humans have defined life."
        
        Isn't this exactly the sort of woolly mumbo-jumbo that let this poor little girl die? Modern medicine may have its flaws, but it's the best thing we've got. If you want to think "positive thoughts" and tap into some mysterious " energy " next time you're ill, fine by me. I'll go to the doctor, thanks.
        
        - bpdlr August 5, 2009 12:09PM
        
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        Not black and white
        
        Patricia, I appreciate your point of view and I do know others who think like you. In fact much of what you say is true, but most of those things are also accepted by modern science and medicine , such as mental state and its impact on health . Many of the problems you point to about medicine are also apt, though there is no need to reach to some larger or higher scheme. Our society does indeed put too much emphasis on dealing with sickness at the expense of wellness and prevention, but as Mr. Book stated, that does not mean that a person living with a very healthy attitude and life-style cannot get sick.
        
        Moreover, there are issues with medicine because many vital details in body chemistry are still elusive. This is why there is so much research into genetics and proteomics. At some point medicines will be tailored to specific people and specific issues. For now we must make do with that which works for most people. We must also deal with misdiagnoses, improper prescription, and advertisements for medicines that lead to incorrect treatment. Certainly there are "alternative" methods to treat many diseases, but what we really must do is better understand the interactions and the options when dealing with a particular disease. In some cases a psychological approach may be better, in others a purely medical approach might be necessary, in yet other cases a combination approach will be superior. To say that medicine doesn't work is missing the point.
        
        - ToddG August 5, 2009 12:17PM
        
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        the beyonder
        
        “i chose to know what is beyond the body. but my experience is relevant only to me.”
        
        Isn’t that ‘arguing from special knowledge’? Saying that I cannot understand the real world because I have not had a supernatural experience?
        
        “people who have had similar experiences usually enjoy each other's stories. people who have not had that experience can't relate at all. it's as if we live in different worlds... very different life experiences.”
        
        Life experiences may be different, but since we are all part of the same universe we are bound by the same physical laws and processes. As such we can objectively review those experiences and observe the physical laws that underlies that reality.
        
        To put it another way… we can talk about which type of apple tastes best and what the cultural significance of the apple is… but the physical reality of a given apple (its physical properties and composition) are not really up for debate.
        
        “if you want a citation on the vaccination - circumcision link, it's not hard to find. google circumcision vaccination pain. this shows up at the top of the list...
        www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio /
        http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736 (96)10316-0/abstract”
        
        That is interesting! I wonder if the increased pain response is just to vaccination or would it apply to any similar stimuli (say injection with the same amount of saline). I also wonder if the difference in pain response remains the same at the one year mark.
        
        “if you want to learn how i learned what i learned, then perhaps it will take you more years or more pain or ? until something inspires you to go beyond the body, beyond the system of things as humans have defined life.”
        
        I am always rather suspicious of claims about objective truth that cannot be objectively demonstrated. Something that is part of the natural world should not require mystical knowledge to understand. It is like the witch-doctor that tells people that they are being assaulted by daemons that only he can see.
        
        “have you ever read books about near-death experiences? put it together with world scriptures? there's something big... very big. very beautiful. i need to get back to it... am writing a book about it so i don't have time to chitchat further.”
        
        As the old saying goes ‘Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence’. What the brain experiences in the moments before death is quite interesting, but that alone does not imply a supernatural experience.
        
        “you believe in medicine . i do not.”
        
        I don’t “believe in medicine”… I am familiar with the studies and methodologies used by modern medicine and find that they are both rational and through. None of it requires a supernatural experience to understand.
        
        “good book: confessions of a medical heretic by dr. robert mendelsohn.”
        
        Except that that book was written 29 years ago… So even if his claims were valid then they are not necessarily valid now. I’d be quite interested to see how he backed up his rather extreme claims like ‘Modern Medicine’s treatments for diseases are seldom effective, and they’re often more dangerous then the diseases that they’re designed to treat”
        
        “yes, there are fortunes to be made from sickness... not from health . :) stay healthy.”
        
        There seems to be a great deal of money in so called ‘alternative treatments’ as well… so claiming that there is no monetary motivation behind it seems disingenuous to me.
        
        “as for tv... i am going by what i see in the cartoons... of old couch potatoes using remotes, drinking beer... i personally don't watch it. never did like canned laughter. have too many other, more wonderful things to do with my time. :) “
        
        Going by what you see in cartoons? Like the Simpsons? That is a parody. Making blanket statements about the habits of millions based on a cartoon does not seem very accurate to me.
        To quote PZ Myers…
        ‘Our opinions are worthwhile only to the extent that we support them with credible evidence and sound reasoning. Everything else is either superstition or the same hot air we can get from a drunk at a gin mill’
        
        - MrBook August 5, 2009 5:13PM
        
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        brief answers
        
        answers to mrbook questions:
        
        yes, i suppose so. everyone has different experiences. i've been through the medical system, through the 'standard american diet ' (SAD) system so your responses have been quite predictable to me. but until and unless you access the same resources i have, you will not understand what i have experienced. nothing 'special' about me... if it was your priority, you would have it too. but apparently you are so far, satisfied with the apparent 'real' world... the 'knock on wood' world... not what endures beyond the body, not what actually breathes and moves the body... pushes the stars in their orbits... sways the trees... holds the atoms together. that's primal. beyond appearances.
        
        'reality' is an agreement. not everyone adheres to the same physical laws. hence, yogis and mystics and masters. in some cultures there are more flexible rules about what is 'normal' and 'natural'... here we are rather forcibly thrust into the 'this IS reality' mode. good read: autobiography of a yogi. and yet, yes, our perceptions of the same stimuli vary.
        
        any child who has been circumcised is suffering from some level of betrayal trauma and PTSD... he has been terrorized and traumatized. feels unsafe, unprotected. he/she will exhibit many of the symptoms of PTSD all his/her life long. i know. i've been there, done that... been circumcised and lived a life of fear until i found out what had happened and recovered from it. do more reading & research. look around you. there are three cultures at war in the middle east -- they are the ONLY three that circumcise their young. coincidence? or millions upon millions of angry, hurt men? frightened, thrashing about and lashing out in pain? they are afraid of people who overpower them and do things to them that hurt. the trauma is in having been overpowered & cut on -- usually without anesthesia. if done to an adult, we would call it rape, assault, battery.
        
        your statement: "I am always rather suspicious of claims about objective truth that cannot be objectively demonstrated. Something that is part of the natural world should not require mystical knowledge to understand. It is like the witch-doctor that tells people that they are being assaulted by daemons that only he can see" is ironic. can you see germs, bacteria, viruses? do you know for sure that they CAUSE illness -- or are they scavengers of diseased flesh? can you SEE chemical imbalances? have you read the research that refutes the 'chemical imbalance' theory? medicine is a belief system and it supports itself through its own rules... much as any belief system. and no small giggle at the 'witch doctor' reference. in the future we will look back on the 'modern' treatments of today and blush at our ignorance and cruelty.
        
        there are many demonstrations that diabetes can be cured. do your research. don't just pick a 'team' and sick rigidly to that side... google, google, google. try this: reverse diabetes 30 days -- watch the trailer to the movie. watch 'supersize me'. watch the new movie out, ' food '. no one need die of any illness. when a doctor says, 'incurable' he merely means, 'i don't know how to fix this.'
        
        i'd have to say i think mendelsohn's book is still extremely timely... unfortunately. have you researched the history of the swine flu , for instance? google, google. the good news is, new things are being discovered all the time... like the value of laughter, love, sunshine, and simple wholesome foods.
        
        cartoons... no, i don't watch tv... i find it incredibly boring. i've just seen cartoons & heard jokes about remotes.
        
        - Patricia Robinett August 5, 2009 5:53PM
        
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        More comments in this thread
- Wooozy
  
  If you just go deeep enough inside the fog of your head, you cannot see a thing. Amazing! It must be a miracle, or at least a very profound insight.
  
  - Kyrre August 5, 2009 1:06PM
  
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Prayers ARE answered, every day

A joke (not mine):

So there's this huge flood one day, and an entire town looks like it's going to be swallowed up by the waters. And the Police and Rescue Agencies are running all over the place trying to get people to safety.

So they send the rescue boat over to this house where a guy's sitting on the roof with the water lapping around his ankles and they say "Come on, quickly, there isn't much time"

To which he says "Nah, it's ok, God will Provide"

So about an hour later they're zooming past in the boat again and they notice the guy's still there, only the water's up to his waist, almost at the top of the roof.. "Quick" they say, get in the boat, it's going to get worst before it gets better.

"Nah, don't worry - God will Provide"

An hour after that a rescue helicopter flies over the area and notices the guy, who must be standing on the peak of the roof now, with only his head and shoulders out of the water. "GRAB THE ROPE!" they cry "IT'S YOUR ONLY HOPE!"

"Don't worry" he replies calmly "God will provide."

So he drowns of course. And he goes to heaven, and is a little ticked off with god for drowing him like that, and expresses his concern saying "I had FAITH, I BELIEVED in you - and still you didn't help me"

"HELP YOU?!" God replies "What MORE did you want - I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"

-----

My point is, maybe God's answers to prayers are not as direct and literal as people hope. Pray for good health ? God has provided us with the mental capacity to gain the knowledge and understanding of our own body so that we may heal ourselves with modern medicine . In that sense, a doctor IS God's answer to your prayers.

- slacker August 5, 2009 11:54AM

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Guilty as Hell

What right do parents have to withhold basic human rights from their own children ?

- holvalholval August 5, 2009 12:20PM

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- After their born?
  
  That question says it all.
  
  - frontrangetony August 5, 2009 12:31PM
  
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It's this simple

I don't know what everyone's going on about, strange discussion has consumed much space here.

Here's the deal. Unless it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that this man intended for his child to die then we are dealing with a mental health issue, not manslaughter.

He faces 25 years for what, for being insane? People blatantly murder others, cold-blooded style, and get sentenced to mental health treatment because they were determined to not be sane, in other words "plead insanity".

What's different here? In this case there wasn't even any outward action which caused a death, but rather an inaction, due to delusional thinking, which resulted in a death.

The parents need mental treatment, not jail time. If in their minds they truly believed prayer would heal their child then they obviously had no ill intent here, they're just crazy, insane, need help, etc.

- Socratic Method August 5, 2009 12:27PM

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- Inaction
  
  Sorry but death through inaction is called "negligence" and it can be punishable by law .
  
  - sandwiches August 5, 2009 6:26PM
  
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  - Not negligent, they're nuts
    
    Of course, but what are we trying to accomplish here? Mental patients don't get the treatment they need by going to prison. What I am trying to communicate is that obviously the parents must be horribly distraught over their child's death, thought they were doing the best they could for her, and had no malice or ill intent in their hearts or minds.
    
    For a mother and a father to sit by while their daughter died horribly in front of them is atrocious, and the fact that they in their minds believed that by praying for her she'd be healed shows a disconnect from reality. Psychiatric treatment and possibly medication is what's needed, not jail time.
    
    Put yourself in their shoes, if you can. Imagine earnestly believing that the health of your sick child would be mitigated by praying, that in fact praying is the only way of bringing your child back to health. Now imagine that child dying, against everything you believed and hoped. A mother and a father lose a child. Praying didn't work. Now not only have you lost your daughter, you are now arrested and soon charged with murdering that child, your future quickly turning into prison.
    
    I have a hard time seeing the purpose in putting a mother and father in jail for the next 25 years, as if they intentionally let their child die.
    
    - Socratic Method August 6, 2009 8:29AM
    
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    - They might be nuts but...
      
      You're probably right that they're probably not completely sane, but I disagree with your sentiment of sadness for a couple of parents going to jail after killing their daughter. And while intent can be a mitigating factor in the courts, the final result of their actions, or lack thereof, was the death of their daughter and that's what they're being punished for. As they say: The way to to hell is paved with good intentions.
      
      Now, going back to the insanity thing, I am unsure that these people will benefit from psychiatric treatment and it's more a matter of faith and belief. If faith in that which cannot be seen, tested, or verified is a mental illness, then we have a lot of people who require psychiatric help in the US, which may very well be the case.
      
      - sandwiches August 6, 2009 2:20PM
      
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Be religious on your own time.

If Neuman didn't feel like going to a doctor when he was sick, I reckon that's his right, either because he's religious, or because he's a fruitcake. However, parents have a responsibility to their children that goes beyond inculcating in them a sense of devotion to God. They called the ambulance when the girl stopped breathing... they could just as easily have called it when there was time to save her. Shame on them, and shame on their idiotic belief system.

- Morganfrost August 5, 2009 12:46PM

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Guilty?

Would I be guilty if I saw a drowning child and instead of wading out to save her sat down and prayed really hard?

Would I be guilty if I put LSD in the drinking water if I believed really hard that it was necessary to open up your mind and be saved?

Would I be guilty if I treated my pneumonia patients with touching the fingerbone of St. Thomas instead of antibiotics if I really believed this was better?

Would I be doing something wrong if I killed people spreading the words of a false prophet if it saved the sould of those they would then not lead astray?

Or shall we have laws that take into account what really happens, the effects we see on other people rather than what the voices say inside our own head?

In short, we cannot imprison terrorists who kill strangers and not terrorists who kill their children ; both believe themselves to be good and just human beings who act for the sake of the greater good as defined by their religion . They are both guilty of looking only to the voices in their heads, not the pain on other peoples faces.

- Kyrre August 5, 2009 1:04PM

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Was Father's Conviction in "Death by Prayer" Case Just? YES

This question should not be asked. The parents may have been motivated by religion , but obviously broke the law . I hope religious sentiments NEVER exculpate anyone from crimes they commit.

Good job jury and prosecutors! Now let's hear a commensurate sentence for the murderers.

- Tilaran August 5, 2009 3:01PM

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Brain Fail

God gave us BRAINS, too!

I can't say I am certain, but I don't think that God much appreciates being 'forced' to create a miracle where he has given us brains to solve the problem ourselves...

Some of those people He gave brains to, learned a bunch of stuff about biology and medicine , they're called Doctors. They solve these little things a lot of the time.

"It was flooding. As the flood waters were rising, a man was on the stoop of his house and another man in a row boat came by. The man in the row boat told the man on the stoop to get in and he'd save him. The man on the stoop said, no, he had faith in God and would wait for God to save him. The flood waters kept rising and the man had to go to the second floor of his house. A man in a motor boat came by and told the man in the house to get in because he had come to rescue him. The man in the house said no thank you. He had perfect faith in God and would wait for God to save him. The flood waters kept rising. Pretty soon they were up to the man's roof and he got out on the roof. A helicopter then came by, lowered a rope and the pilot shouted down in the man in the house to climb up the rope because the helicopeter had come to rescue him. The man in the house wouldn't get in. He told the pilot that he had faith in God and would wait for God to rescue him. The flood waters kept rising and the man in the house drowned. When he got to heaven, he asked God where he went wrong. He told God that he had perfect faith in God, but God had let him drown.
"What more do you want from me?" asked God. "I sent you two boats and a helicopter.""

It is one thing to be an idiot with your own life, but avoiding the very thing provided by the very God you are asking it from, and killing your own child as a result... I think they got off easy.

- camosoul77 August 5, 2009 3:09PM

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Not just

Stupidity should not be "illegal". The loss of his daughter should be punishment enough.

- KentMcManigal August 5, 2009 7:52PM

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- Exactly
  
  Our society wants blood though. We hate them for their stupidity and want their lives ruined. Would their daughter have wanted them to spend more than two decades in prison, even knowing that their ignorance and/or delusions led to her death?
  
  Of course not. She would, as both a daughter and a compassionate human being, recognize their INTENT, that they had no malice in their hearts, and in their minds they were doing the ABSOLUTE BEST for her, by relying on God.
  
  They f'd up, but manslaughter? I think our society is a bit too quick to judge, convict, and forget.
  
  - Socratic Method August 6, 2009 8:47AM
  
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  - That's a bit dramatic
    
    Not everyone in society wants blood. Some people think that jail time and other punishments can help you to learn what is right and wrong. For me, it's a bit more pragmatic. I don't care if they learn or not, if they are rehabilitated, if they're alive or dead. It's about safety to the public. People like these can be a real danger to society and if they have other kids , possibly to them too.
    
    Now, on the matter of intent. Well, that's all fantastic that they wanted to help but you know what? Suicide bombers think they're on the side of good and their intent is to cleanse the evil. Intent is not enough. Our society is not built on intent and good wishes. it's built on actions and consequences. If I kill your daughter who has cancer to spare her the suffering, would you be so quick to forgive? Very doubtful.
    
    - sandwiches August 6, 2009 2:26PM
    
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    - yes but
      
      As you can see from my other post I believe safety of the public is important and should be taken into account.
      
      However I believe you are mistaken to draw a comparison with suicide bombers. The suicide bomber believes that their victim will die but believes it is the right thing to do based on their religion . Here it is a safe bet that the perpetrator believed that they were doing something which would cure the victim not kill them even if they believe that curing their victim is the right thing to do based on their religion. The two situations are clearly and essentially distinguishable and should not be oonflated.
      
      - deni August 6, 2009 9:04PM
      
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      - Intentions are essentially the same
        
        Either way. The point is people did harm because of their beliefs despite the fact that they thought that the fundamental force behind their actions was good. You think a suicide bomber thinks to himself "Today, I'll kill all those people just because I'm evil"? No. They probably think something along the lines of "I'll kill all those people in the name of my god and cleanse the world of evildoers."
        
        - sandwiches August 6, 2009 9:17PM
        
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- Definitly Guilty. No doubt about it.
  
  Stupidity should be illegal because then if it isn't, you have a great excuse if you commit a crime . "Oh, I didn't know that if I pulled the trigger with the gun pointed at him he would die!"
  
  If stupidity is not a crime, then you just encourage people to be stupid.
  
  And it has nothing to do with our society wanting blood. Our society wants dangerous people off the streets, stupid or not. Those people should have expected their daughter to die; prayer , right now, is as good as doing absolutely nothing, because there are no scientific studies that suggest prayer has a statistically significant rate of success.
  
  - ModmanGlest August 14, 2009 2:55PM
  
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Poor Girl

Had the girl lived it would have been a miracle by god .
Had highly skilled doctors saved her life it would have been a miracle by god.
When an innocent child dies while a bunch religious nuts pray over her what should we call that.
I, however, believe that if you think god is responsible for healing your sicknesses, then you shouldn't be allowed to seek out the help of science especially anything which has or will develop out of stem-cell research.

- Kennith August 5, 2009 8:39PM

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Easy

He got off easy. Idiot.

- remeadial August 6, 2009 12:58AM

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in short

no

Or should we convict a father who takes his daughter to the wrong doctor?

Or do we convict the father who tries a home remedy?

Or do we convict the father who maybe didn't notice their child was ill?

Hell, when a doctor prescribes the wrong treatment usually he might be guilty of malpractice and subject to civil litigation but rarely would he go to prison.

Of course I know you won't be happy until the government is in our homes prescribing exactly what we can do.

- jaker277 August 6, 2009 5:10AM

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- Scary government, right?
  
  The government is the representative of the law created by society . Sorry but whether you like it or not, society has placed limits and obligations on the rights it grants us.
  
  When you do something wrong such as kill your daughter through inaction, you've broken the law created by society. By breaking the law, you're subject to certain consequences. That's how our society works.
  
  - sandwiches August 6, 2009 2:31PM
  
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  - Actually
    
    The role of governement is to protect the individuals rights.
    
    Even from society .
    
    - jaker277 August 9, 2009 4:11AM
    
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    - Not really.
      
      Wrong. The role of government is to carry out the wishes of society . Nothing less, nothing more. What specific powers and limitations we wish to impose upon this government is up to the individual society.
      
      This is not an invasion of "our homes" as you would make it seem. This is merely the government acting on behalf of society to enforce laws that we, as a society, have allowed to exist.
      
      Now, in this specific case, the father knew his daughter was ill and decided, without evidence, that his daughter would be miraculously cured through mere praying. While his intentions were probably good, his ACTIONS are much more important and in all reality, we can only use someone's intent in law so far, as we can't read minds. So, the only concrete observation we have is a man who failed to take his daughter to get proper treatment when he clearly knew she was ill.
      
      - sandwiches August 10, 2009 12:25PM
      
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      - the funny thing is
        
        You have no idea how wrong you are.
        
        The United States of America is a Republic not a Democracy. The role of government in a Republic is to protect the individuals rights even though the majority of society would prefer to infringe on ones rights. Remember slavery? Even though society wanted slaves, the human rights of the slave prevailed.
        
        So now I can only guess that you are at minimum agnostic and maybe even an athiest so you don't believe in the healing power of prayer . But you definetley do not support this family's freedom of religion .
        
        That's fine. In our Republic you have the right to your opinion but you have no right and therefore the government has no right either to infringe on this family's right to practice their religion.
        
        - jaker277 August 10, 2009 8:01PM
        
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        Negligent homicide is not a right.
        
        You're wrong, again.
        
        I didn't say it was a Democracy and I know we're a Constitutional Republic but that's why I deliberately avoided saying "the role of OUR or the American government." in that first paragraph. Because the role of a government is different depending on each society . Now, in the US, we have the rule of law and the Constitution is supposed to reign supreme. I'm not debating or disagreeing with that.
        
        I am agnostic atheist (not mutually, exclusive, so you know.) And I do support freedom of religion up to a point. Like any right, it has limitations, for instance, you wouldn't support (or I hope you wouldn't support) sacrificing people simply because a religion commands it. So, people's freedoms and rights end where other people's freedoms and rights start. So, if you support this father, you're quite simply supporting negligent homicide , not freedom of religion, like you claim your are. Sorry but letting your children die of neglect is not protected by freedom of religion.
        
        - sandwiches August 10, 2009 8:10PM
        
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        To agree only to a point
        
        is to disagree.
        
        This family held a prayer vigil for their daughter which is in accordance with their religion . At a point they realized it was failing they did in fact call for emergency services. So no neglect in their minds or in practice.
        
        If you support freedom of religion then you must honor this familiy's right to practice theirs. No matter the outcome. And anyways to live is to die.
        
        It is unfortunate that a young girl died in the pursuit of freedom but freedom is not free.
        
        Annually 30,000 people die as a result of our 2nd Amendment. A small cost for freedom.
        
        Many times more than this die in auto related accidents, which is not even a right. And unless you don't drive a car, take a bus, or even ride a motorcycle you support this.
        
        If a group of people wanted to sacrifice themselves in support of their religion then I must support it. They make their decision and I have no say over what they do the same as no man has domain over me.
        
        But, don't preach to me about supporting negligent homicide because you see, you in fact by supporting the American government support the negligent homicide and outright murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people every year.
        
        - jaker277 August 11, 2009 5:46AM
        
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        More comments in this thread
- some differences
  
  There is a difference between an accidental death and clear cases of neglect and abuse.
  
  "Or do we convict the father who tries a home remedy? "
  
  Isn't that what was done? The guy disregarded his child's well being by denying the child medical attention.
  
  "Or do we convict the father who maybe didn't notice their child was ill?"
  
  In that case it would be an accidental death... but this girl would have clearly been significantly ill during her last days.
  
  "Hell, when a doctor prescribes the wrong treatment usually he might be guilty of malpractice and subject to civil litigation but rarely would he go to prison."
  
  It would be the case if he was shown to be criminally negligent.
  
  - MrBook August 6, 2009 4:29PM
  
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  - In your opinion
    
    he denied her but not in his.
    
    But I guess you would jail an Amish who lived too far or was unable to contact emergency services to save their child when injured because they are negligent in owning such modern devices that would allow for a quick response.
    
    - jaker277 August 9, 2009 4:16AM
    
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    - as long as
      
      They made an honest attempt to get medical attention then no.
      
      These people sat around praying while their daughter died in agony.
      
      - MrBook August 9, 2009 12:45PM
      
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      - small price to pay
        
        for freedom
        
        - jaker277 August 11, 2009 6:08AM
        
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        free for who?
        
        freedom for everyone except the little girl who is now dead.
        
        Should someone who deliberately starves their child because they think that it is a healthy diet be given a pass because of their beliefs? What about someone who beats their child?
        
        Just because people believe things does not give them a free pass to follow their beliefs.
        
        - MrBook August 11, 2009 7:07AM
        
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        cry me a river
        
        Freedom has a price my friend.
        
        But anyways, our government murders hundreds of thousands for a lie and you are so worked up over one girl. Hundreds of thousands die from cars in the US alone but what do you drive? Our current national debt won't be paid off even by my grandchildren. So who is free in this country?
        
        The only ones suffering in this case are the childs parents. The child's spirit has moved on beyond this world and no longer suffers.
        
        Did you suffer from her death?
        
        - jaker277 August 11, 2009 8:22AM
        
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        Beliefs
        
        I would have to say MrBook is right on this one.
        
        - countryboy August 11, 2009 5:06PM
        
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yes and no

Technically I think he should not be convicted due to the mistake of fact. He had some misguided belief that God would condone his neglect of his child by intervening or that God is unaware that he could have just gone to a doctor and there is no need for a miracle. His obvious confidence in that belief is not consistent with a guilty mind.

However whilst I don't think it is good law to convict him I think it is necessary as a matter of practicality. It sends a message out to others who might be as misguided not to try it and thereby could protect a child in future.

- deni August 6, 2009 8:42PM

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- negligent homicide sounds like an oxymoron
  
  "Those who would trade their liberty for security deserve neither" - Benjamin Franklin.
  
  - JKM121 August 8, 2009 5:40AM
  
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- Mistake of fact should not prevent conviction
  
  What if the Nazis had a "mistake of fact"? Are they innocent, by your standards?
  
  - ModmanGlest August 14, 2009 3:17PM
  
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"Death by Prayer" a misnomer

Prayer does not kill! She died from complications of diabetes . She died because her parents were negligent and did not seek proper medical care. Not praying and refusing to take their daughter to the doctor has the same result. Prayer is important, but this girl did not die by prayer . There is no direct causal relationship between prayer and death.

- Mojoanne August 8, 2009 9:48PM

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- Death by sitting on hands
  
  Since the current evidence does not indicate that prayer has any beneficial effect, it's effect is the same simply sitting on your hands. So, if a child dies, from someone just watching over them and wishing they'd get well while sitting on their hands, you would have negligently killed him by sitting on your hands. Same thing happened here but instead of sitting on hands, they put their hands together.
  
  - sandwiches August 10, 2009 8:15PM
  
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Fun random quote

Kill one he/she is a tragedy , kill 100,000 he/she a statistic.

This one tragedy was wrong in my opinion. If someone chooses not to be treated and prey for their health that's fine when you don't allow a Child or anyone for that matter to recieve medical attention it's murder .

- ttut21 August 14, 2009 6:58AM

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- A quick joke
  
  A man's boat sinks and he is stuck on a raft in the middle of the ocean.
  A boat comes by and the driver askes the man if he needs a ride. The man reply's,"no god will save me."
  Another boat comes by and has the same outcome.
  A third boat comes across the man. "Do you need a ride? There's another storm coming." the driver says the the faithful. The man reply's yet again,"No god will protect me."
  Well the man drowns.
  When he get's to heaven he asks god,"why didn't you save me?"
  God reply's,"Didn't you get the boats I sent?"
  
  - ttut21 August 17, 2009 2:59PM
  
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Sad

This is sad...very sad. God loves and can heal, but when someone is in need take them to the doctor! God can heal through the doctors . What I mean is God can grant the medical attention received to be successful. It's a shame this young girl had to die.

- Dylandts August 15, 2009 9:06PM

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- Prayer and medical attention
  
  Yes this is sad.God did make MD's also. Prayer can heal.But MD's are there he a reason!
  
  - countryboy August 15, 2009 10:12PM
  
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Was Father's Conviction in "Death by Prayer" Case Just?

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