Top 10 Reasons You Should Not Eat Turkey on Thanksgiving
Top 10 reasons to pardon turkeys this Thanksgiving
This Thanksgiving, why not keep the turkey corpse off your table and enjoy a savory vegan feast instead? Here are 10 good reasons to spare turkeys and flock to vegan food:
1. Turkeys are no “bird brains”
When they’re not forced to live on filthy factory farms, turkeys spend their days caring for their young, building nests, foraging for food, taking dustbaths, preening themselves, and roosting high in trees. These intelligent, playful birds relish having their feathers stroked and like to chirp, cluck, and gobble along to their favorite tunes.
As poultry scientist Tom Savage says, “I’ve always viewed turkeys as smart animals with personality and character, and keen awareness of their surroundings. The ‘dumb’ tag simply doesn’t fit.”
2. Turkeys are American originals
Ben Franklin called turkeys “true American originals.” He had tremendous respect for their resourcefulness, agility, and beauty. In nature, turkeys can fly 55 miles an hour, run 25 miles an hour, and live up to four years. Yet turkeys raised for food are killed when they are only 5 or 6 months old, and during their short lives, they will be denied even the simplest pleasures, like running, building nests, and raising their young.
3. Turkey is no health food
Turkey flesh is brimming with fat and cholesterol. Just one homemade patty of ground, cooked turkey meat contains a whopping 244 mg of cholesterol, and half of its calories come from fat. Turkey flesh is also frequently tainted with salmonella, campylobacter bacteria, and other contaminants.
4. Bird flu can strike anywhere
Current factory-farm conditions, in which turkeys are drugged and bred to grow so quickly they can barely walk, are breeding grounds for disease. Cooking meat should kill the bird flu virus, but it can be left behind on cutting boards and utensils and spread through something else you’re eating.
5. Turkeys are on drugs
Dosing turkeys with antibiotics to stimulate their growth and to keep them alive in filthy, disease-ridden conditions that would otherwise kill them poses even more risks for people who eat them. Leading health organizations—including the World Health Organization, the American Medical Association, and the American Public Health Association—have warned that the farmed-animal industry is creating possible long-term risks to human health and will spread antibiotic-resistant supergerms. That’s why the use of drugs to promote growth in animals used for food is banned in Europe.
6. Factory-farmed turkeys have nothing to be thankful for
On factory farms, turkeys live for months in sheds where they are packed so tightly that flapping a wing or stretching a leg is nearly impossible. They stand mired in waste, and urine and ammonia fumes burn their eyes and lungs. To keep the birds from killing one another in such crowded conditions, parts of the turkeys’ toes and beaks are cut off, as are the males’ snoods (the flap of skin under the chin). All this is done without any pain relievers.
Last fall, a PETA investigator went undercover at Aviagen Turkeys in West Virginia and documented workers stomping on turkeys, punching them, beating them with pipes and boards, and twisting their necks repeatedly. One worker even bragged about shoving a broomstick down a turkey’s throat because the bird had pecked at him. Our previous investigations show that such gratuitous abuse is the norm on turkey farms.
7. Turkeys die bloody, painful deaths
When the time comes for slaughter, turkeys are thrown into transport trucks, and at the slaughterhouse, they are hung upside-down and their heads are dragged through an electrified “stunning tank,” which immobilizes them but does not kill them. Many birds dodge the tank and are still conscious when their throats are slit. If the knife fails to properly slit the birds’ throats, the birds are scalded to death in the defeathering tanks.
8. Turkey is not green
Turkeys and other animals raised for food produce 130 times as much excrement as the entire human population—all without the benefit of waste treatment systems. There are no federal guidelines to regulate how factory farms treat, store, and dispose of the trillions of pounds of concentrated, untreated animal excrement that they produce each year.
9. You’re not doing slaughterhouse workers any favors by eating turkey
Killing animals is inherently dangerous work, and the fast line speeds, the dirty, slippery killing floors, and the lack of training make animal-“processing” plants some of the most life-threatening places to work. The industry refuses to slow down the kill lines or buy appropriate safety gear because these changes could cut into companies’ bottom lines.
10. There are healthy, humane alternatives
Everyone can give thanks for Tofurky, Celebration Roast, Garden Protein’s Veggie Turkey Breast With Wild Rice and Cranberry Stuffing, and other animal-friendly holiday meals. PETA’s scrumptious holiday recipes will please every palate and make it easier to give up the giblets.













Top 10 Reasons You Should Not Eat Turkey on Thanksgiving
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Hugh?
I have yet to see any proof of were they get their information. As far as i am concerned, unless some one can tell me where they get their information from, Peta uses nothing but assumptions. WHat the heck is a Veggie Turkey Breast? If it is not a turkey meat then dont call it turkey. Hey lets forget eating meat and just turn to styraphome, cardboard and other things to eat. IT is apparently "greener" if we eat those things.
- musicdued535
November 23, 2009 9:40AM
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sources
musicdued -
click on the links. The citations are there.
- ElaineVigneault
November 23, 2009 9:23PM
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Eh, not so much
Those links point to various articles on goveg.com, a PETA website. Basically they're citing themselves. Some of the articles on goveg do contain citations, however I didn't see any that actually contained the information they were said to contain.The same is true for the goveg articles, they often don't include the points they're linked to. The points are also full of factual errors.
For example:
- The goveg article that #3 points to has nothing to do with the nutrition value of turkey, only about the contaminants it contains. The citation goveg uses for that point states that seafood is the number 1 cause of food poisoning.
- Point #4 contains a gold mine of incorrect statements. Poultry farms are not breeding grounds for diseases, as regular USDA inspections check for this. Birds are also required to be individually inspected at the slaughter house to insure they are disease free. The CDC also points out that the Avian Flu outbreak is limited to Asia, Europe, the Near East, and Africa. Additionally, the "cutting board" example mentioned is a great example of poor food handling.
- Point #5 shows PETA's lack of scientific training: hormones are commonly given to animals to stimulate growth, but are not approved for use in turkeys by the USDA. Antibiotics are used to kill bacteria. Anyone who is concerned about them can easily find turkeys certified as having no antibiotics.
- Points #6 and 7 are not in line with current USDA regulations that prohibit conscious animals from being shackled. Additionally, they are put in those shackles by human workers . Don't you think a human would notice if the bird was still conscious? The same applies for the knife stroke. The USDA has strict regulations on humane handling of turkeys, which can be found here: http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/6900.2Rev1 .pdf
- thebigmike
November 24, 2009 4:45PM
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USDA regulations do NOT protect poultry
While efforts have been made, and at least one lawsuit (Humane Society) is attempting to change USDA regulations regarding "humane" slaughter, poultry is exempted and is labeled produce, no doubt due to the lobbying efforts of the poultry industry.
As produce, birds have the same protection as corn from birth to death and all points in between, ie, NONE.
The only thing that might ultimately change these horrid practices, is public awareness, and while PETA has its faults, it has done much good in its undercover operations.
If you think for one moment that anyone on the killing floor thinks for a milisecond about the suffering of that dying, mutilated bird, think again.
A million birds per hour are killed, mostly chickens, all over this country, and the line dosn't slow for anyone or anything.
A red bird, one who is boiled alive goes into other foods, canned, processed, and pet.
- joolmaker
November 25, 2009 11:47AM
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Pretty sure they do...
"It is hereby declared to be the policy of the Congress to provide for the inspection of poultry and poultry products and otherwise regulate the processing and distribution of such articles" -Sec. 452 of the "Poultry Products Inspection Act" available on the USDA website ( http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Regulations/PPIA/index.asp #Sec.%20452).
- thebigmike
November 30, 2009 9:33AM
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inspection yes....
humane considerations, no.
quoting: USDA considers humane methods of handling animals and humane slaughter operations a priority, and has a Farm Animal Well Being Task Force to address sound standards for the care, handling, transporting, and slaughter of farm animals. The Food Safety and Inspection Service (FSIS) is the Agency within USDA responsible for ensuring compliance with the Humane Methods of Slaughter Act.
FSIS employs a Veterinarian and slaughter line inspectors at every federally inspected slaughter establishment. The Veterinarian enforces humane slaughter methods throughout the entire plant. The Veterinarian and slaughter line inspectors observe the methods by which CATTLE, SHEEP, SWINE, GOATS, HORSES, MULES OR OTHER EQUINES are slaughtered, ensure plants take corrective action where needed, and are responsible for reporting instances of inhumane treatment of animals as they carry out their primary food safety-related inspection responsibilities. FSIS Veterinarians and inspectors stop the production line if they see any violations of the humane slaughter regulations . end quote
At present, except possibly in a few states there are no regulations regarding humane handling, raising or slaughter of poultry, only inspection of facilities (loaded with exemptions by the way) for health threats to humans.
- joolmaker
November 30, 2009 12:13PM
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Inspection includes humane considerations
Here is a link to the USDA website that contains links to the poultry inspector's guide: http://www.fsis.usda.gov/employees/Slaughter_Inspection_Training/index.asp
In the document describing antemortem inspection procedures, I found the following paragraph:
In poultry operations, employing humane methods of handling and slaughtering that are consistent with good commercial practices increases the likelihood of producing unadulterated product. FSIS regulations describe the operating procedures that poultry processors must follow to ensure sanitary processing, proper inspection, and the production of poultry products that are not adulterated. Under 9 CFR 381.71, FSIS condemns poultry showing, on antemortem inspection, certain diseases or conditions . Bruising is one condition that may result in condemnation (9 CFR 381.89). Bruises are likely to result when birds are not treated humanely. Moreover, the PPIA (21 U.S.C. 453(g)(5), as well as agency regulations (9 CFR 381.90), provide that carcasses of poultry showing evidence of having died from causes other than slaughter are considered adulterated and condemned. The regulations also require that poultry be slaughtered in accordance with good commercial practices, in a manner that results in thorough bleeding of the poultry carcass, and ensures that breathing has stopped before scalding so that the birds do not drown (9 CFR 381.65(b). Compliance with these requirements helps ensure that poultry are treated humanely.
- thebigmike
November 30, 2009 3:45PM
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1 reason we should eat turkey
It tastes great. Add it with potatoes, stuffing, rolls and all the other trimmings and you have one of the best meals of the year. And let's not forget all the great turkey sandwiches from leftover turkey. Mmmm!
- moby clarke
November 23, 2009 11:35AM
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What About a Serious Comment
Rather than knee-jerk sarcasm, what about a real comment? Moby, I love turkey, especially on Thanksgiving. All the things you said are great. But PETA presents some very compelling points here. Doesn't it make you at least pause and think about what you're consuming? I'm not trying to attack you. Just a question. Remember, I'm a meat eater myself. But I can't stick my head in the sand and pretend these 10 points don't exist. Thanks.
- Vandal K
November 23, 2009 12:35PM
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What gives me pause...
is how anybody can eat turkey, when there's HAM! Ham kicks the crap out of turkey any day. And given the fact that it comes from the same place as the single greatest thing in all of creation - BACON - just increases its allure.
- LagerHead
November 24, 2009 1:12PM
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Not to me
PETA is a militant group trying to impose their morals on everyone else who disagrees. For that reason I have no respect for them or anything they say.
- tbcass
November 25, 2009 12:01PM
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Penn and Teller's PETA Bullsh*t
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0exLa6saV9o
There's a fantastic video from Penn and Teller 's Bullsh*t that talk of PETA and it's wonderful ethics .
- RonJ73
November 25, 2009 1:02PM
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True
If Peta was sincere they would try to make sure that laws against miss treatment of animals were properly enforced. Instead their goal is a moral agenda (I would say religious but no greater power is involved) to force Veganism, no ownership of pets , no hunting , no Zoos, etc essentially putting animals on the exact same legal plane as humans. If that's their belief that's their business but they aren't satisfied with that but have become essentially a Fascist organization with the desire to force their moral and political beliefs on all who disagree with them through any means possible.
- tbcass
November 27, 2009 5:54AM
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Here's a serious comment
The article completely disregarded the fact that my turkey did not come from a "factory farm". We buy our meat from local farmers who raise animals in smaller groups than, say, Tyson or Jennie-O. We are able to visit the farms, and see how the animals are being raised.
- llamalluv
November 25, 2009 1:08PM
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Turkey
If just one or two of these are full truths then that is enough for me to give up Turkey this year.
- sfranklin
November 23, 2009 12:06PM
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Help, Help Me Grandma!
Most turkeys aren't like yesterday's birds . Commercially-produced turkeys today stand toe-to-toe in huge poultry houses.(Indiana alone produced 14.5 million last year.) The turkeys Grandma used to bake for Thanksgiving were raised in the pasture,in the sunshine and ate bugs. Their gizzards had gravel! They were sweet birds. The smell of turkey feathers in scalding water isn't sweet and plucking by hand is hard work.
Ethic Soup blog has a very funny post, "Help, Help Me Grandma! A Headless Turkey Is Chasing Me," at:
http://www.ethicsoup.com/2009/11/turkey-neck-on-the-chopping-block-toddler-crying-while-daddy-holds-down-the-turkey-and-grandpa-has-axe-ready-to-off-the-t.html
- SharonMcEachern
November 23, 2009 12:09PM
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Pilgrims Pride
I know that, if they ate turkey's at all, they ate the wild ones. Naturally raised turkeys are accessible these days. Tofurkey (I've had it) is a highly processed, nasty tasting product, that resembles the texture of rubber. I don't think that the Pilgrims worried about cholesterol . They had other things to worry about. Besides, the human body needs cholesterol.
What I worry about is the hypocrisy here. Many of the experiments done to determine the detrimental (?) effects if lipids were done on animals in labs. Some followed human's in longitudinal studies that were correlational in outcomes. For example, there was a high correlation between heart disease and being married to an educated woman. I divorced my wife when I heard that (just kidding). The reason why the so-called scientists focused on cholesterol in the first place was that it was the only thing that could be manipulated with medication (short of poisoning your educated wife of course).
In the final analysis, I eat turkey so infrequently, I am going to dig in on Thanksgiving with my family. Just so that you think that I being fair, I am also harming vegetables by eating them as well. Oh! The horrors.
- Rashi18
November 23, 2009 1:11PM
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Vegan Thanksgiving Recipes Here
http://www.mercyforanimals.org/thanksgiving_recipes.asp
http://vegweb.com/index.php?board=304 .0
http://www.gentlethanksgiving.org/guide/recipes.htm
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/11/a-bountiful-vegan-thanksgiving----recipes-from-your-favorite-chefs.html
http://girliegirlarmy.com/blog/20091120/gourmet-and-healthy-holiday-recipes /
http://www.vegan.com/recipes/vegan-thanksgiving-recipes-robin-robertson /
http://www.ivu.org/recipes/holiday /
- ElaineVigneault
November 23, 2009 9:28PM
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2 great videos
Check out this uplifting and inspiring video on why people choose vegan : http://veganvideo.org /
Also see Gary Yourofsky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bagt5L9wXGo
- vegaia
November 24, 2009 7:09AM
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Top 10 Reasons to eat turkey on Thanksgiving
1) Turkey is delicious
2) Turkey is a very healthy meat
3) PETA is just a bunch of media hungry whack jobs
4) Tofurkey and pretty much all "meat alternative" products are disgusting. (please note there are many meat free items that are quite delicious but none of the meat free products that are made to imitate meat should ever be ingested)
5) Due to technological advancements turkeys only have to live in captivity for 5-6 months now before being slaughtered where they used to have to live in captivity for years.
6) Turkey Gravy is delicious
7) It pisses off the nuts in PETA
8) Turkeys are on drugs . It's an efficient way of taking drugs and eating all at once.
9) Because Ben Franklin was overruled and the Bald Eagle is our national bird. (Bald Eagles are gamy and tough so they're not as delicious as turkeys)
10) Turkey soup is delicious and it pisses off the wackjobs in PETA when you make turkey carcass soup.
Please note, I really like the media hungry wacko's at PETA. I very much appreciate all of the over-sexualized advertisements and protests they've done over the last few years. Their continual degradation of women in a misguided attempt to protect animals has produced some great porn. Just think of the ad where they had women doing everything short of penetration with a variety of veggies. That was great and provided masturbation material for countless teenage boys and lesbians. All of the protests where they have naked women in cages with body paint? That's HOT! Thank you PETA for being freaking nuts and despite the fact that I really disagree with your campaign to demean women I appreciate all the great material.
- State of Reason
November 25, 2009 11:44AM
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Great
This is the best post I've ever read on this site!!! 5, no, 10 stars **********
- tbcass
November 25, 2009 12:04PM
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The truth.
That is the most accurate post i have seen on this site. State, I couldnt agree more. finally someone with some sense. Keep it up!!
- j30a1
December 3, 2009 9:30AM
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Tofu Turkey?
I cant eat tofu. I end up in the ER. Tofu has a rather serious side effect with one of my medications.
I can, and do, eat turkey. No poison, no bacteria, no ' drugs ', and these are store-bought birds . I suppose PETA just cant get over the fact that Homo Sapiens is an omnivore.
- TB3
November 25, 2009 12:06PM
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The Usual Vegan Activist Lies
The reason they don't give proof is that they made it up. The animal rights vegan activists aren't interested in truth, they just want to force us by any means available to live by their extremist political philosophy.
- Bonnie1
November 25, 2009 12:28PM
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#11
Reason #11 to not eat turkey:
Beef tastes better.
Re: #3, "Turkey flesh is brimming with fat and cholesterol . Just one homemade patty of ground, cooked turkey meat contains a whopping 244 mg of cholesterol, and half of its calories come from fat."
They're combining white meat, dark meat, and probably skin to get that. Turkey breast is quite lean.
- ChrisB
November 25, 2009 12:40PM
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PETA is a disgrace
PETA is notorious for making statements without scientific truth or otherwise in a deliberately misleading manner. Several animal rights activists I know will have nothing to do with them. They are exhibitionists who, through increasingly outrageous conduct and hyperbolic allegations, are bent on making everyone vegan , no matter what the health risks (my daughter attempted vegan/ vegetarian diets several times and each time had health problems, which disappeared when she returned to a balanced diet with some chicken, turkey, and seafood).
As the post above points out, the cholesterol allegation is just one example. (I'm certain they make similar allegations about the cholesterol in shellfish, which is actually "good cholesterol"). Turkey is one of the leanest and best sources of protein.
As with chicken, if you want to keep the fat to a minimum, don't eat the skin and just eat white meat .
NBC has rejected PETA's latest obnoxious ads , and rightly so.
- jprich7285
November 25, 2009 1:46PM
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Do Animals Suffer to be our Food?
I am a vegetarian and I choose not to be the source of suffering for our animals , turkeys, chickens who are mistreated for the cultural tastes of man. The people who work at these places take out their hostility and hatred on these animals because they probably would like to take it out on people. They can get away with torturing animals. In the Garden of Eden, God's original diet did not include meat . We will not eat in heaven.
- Alayna Staggers
November 25, 2009 3:35PM
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Get a Life, Alayna
Alayna: This is still (largely) a free country, and you have every right not to eat meat . But stop with the silly pop psychology and propaganda. (For example, you have zero proof that the people who work in slaughterhouses hate people and would probably like to slaughter them, and that statement alone makes you look like a wacko. Indeed, one of the great mass murderes in history, Adolf Hitler, became a vegetarian . And tens of millions of quite gentle, humane and pacific people are omnivores; see today's Japan, Scandinavia and Switzerland, for example.)
There are numerous organic, kosher and halal sources if meat where the animal has been killed in a humane manner and not "tortured." California and many other states have passed laws strictly regulating the conditions in which animals are raised. So if these were really your objections, you'd eat meat from those protected sources.
How about this pop psychology theory: You and your extremist vegan friends like animals so much that you see them in anthropomorphic terms, like Disney characters, and prefer them to people. That has more validity than your silly theory about sadistic, people-hating meatpackers...
News flash: "The Garden of Eden" is a story in the Bible.
- jprich7285
November 25, 2009 5:37PM
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Probably am a "waco"
Won't be the first time I've been called a "wacko." It just takes a lot of anger to kick and brutalize helpless animals . I may be a "wacko" but I'm not a "cruel wacko."
Many of the people who work in slaughterhouses are not qualified to get jobs elsewhere and this is how they take their frustrations out.
- Alayna Staggers
November 26, 2009 10:44AM
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The Garden Of Eden"
I love Bible stories, especially the one about "Jesus is coming again" to restore His people to a Heavenly Home where there will be "no more death! God Bless You with Whatever you eat this Thanksgiving!
- Alayna Staggers
November 26, 2009 11:03AM
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Alayna's comments speak for themselves
Res ipsa loquitur...
- jprich7285
November 27, 2009 5:52PM
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Vegetarian or Meat
We all have God given choice as to what to eat. I just stated my preference and ideas.
Vegetables are easy to grow. Meat is also contaminated with growth hormones and antibiotics. Cholesterol is also a reason to avoid red meat and Gout is an ilness acquired from too much protein. Just speaking from a nurses knowledge. Meat also takes longer to digest which overworks the stomach. Vegetarians tend to live longer without the accumulated disease of meat consumption. Salmonella poisoning is a danger if chicken is not properly handled. Lunch meats and hot dogs are processed with too much salt and additives so from a health point of view contact Loma Linda University or Hospital to get info on the Seventh-day Adventist diet of whole grains. fruits and vegetables. Thanks for listening.
- Alayna Staggers
November 27, 2009 10:37PM
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Quotes from the BIble
I don't guess you made it to the part where God said man would take part and make use for all creatures for his benefit. Also, about your crazed psyco poultry worker comment. In essence you are saying immigrant workers are murderers because from what I've seen first hand, they are the only ones working in these places. Best be careful, all of this political correctness floating around, someone might get offended.
- cjlee
November 26, 2009 9:45AM
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Depends on "Freedom of Speech"
Now we are getting into the subject of Mexicans coming over to the US illegally and doing the jobs that noone else wants. This is a "new can of worms" which I am sure everyone will pick up on. I have never been known to be "politically correct." Watch Fox News.
- Alayna Staggers
November 26, 2009 10:48AM
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Heh
I never said anything about Mexicans. But we all know what you meant.
- cjlee
November 26, 2009 4:17PM
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Only one (1) reason
The taste and the tradition do not justify to torture and to kill to a sentient being. This is enough reason to not to eat turkeys or any animal...
Humans beings can to use o to eat other animals only because they believe they are "superiors"... a real misconception.
And... please, PETA doesn`t exist (you, Opposing Views could use other sources truly serious and trustworthy)...
- Alicia Sangineti
November 25, 2009 5:15PM
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Thank goodness
I was going to make a post like yours, but you beat me to it. I'm utterly exhausted from having to go to sites like this, read an article by the likes of PeTA and then have to say, "no, no...killing animals for food is still morally unjustifiable, but not for most (if not all) of the reasons stated by PeTA."
I don't mind if people want to try and marginalize my views by calling them extreme, but they'll really have to put in some effort if they hope to prove them logically inconsistent.
PeTA, on the other hand, is just begging to be marginalized: hypocrisy, logical fallacies, lack of informational integrity...the list goes on and on.
For anyone questioning the morality of animal exploitation, for goodness sake, please avoid the following information sources as your guiding light:
1)CCF
2)PeTA
- mike
November 25, 2009 10:13PM
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More than one reason to eat turkey
Alicia: Fortunately for turkey and those of us with concern for our fellow, also confused creatures, there is not a smidge of scientific evidence that turkeys or any other creatures, other than us ( in our opinion at least) is a sentient being and there are times I wonder about some of us. Perhaps computers of the near future will at some point no longer be truly ours but I digress. We have been eating and been eaten by animals all the way back to a time when we were barely if at all sentient beings ourselves. At least a million years ago. It is the religious nuts who think we were placed on this insignificant planet to exploit it's opportunities in the name of their god , lost in the mind boggling enormity of time/space. Having to eat and kill to live is in my mind a degree of proof there is no god. I believe there may be a creature or two like us who understands the reflection in a mirror and more, but sadly I can name none. I say sadly because we really could use some good advice about now, regardless form whence it may come. I agree with you PETA is a disgusting, self serving bunch of fear mongers not unlike a lot of environmentalists and others mad for publicity and easy money . I think the crows I feed on the occaision they seem willing are about the only feathered creatures I would consider as having proto sentient awareness. I respect your good heart.
- fitz
November 25, 2009 10:22PM
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You're incorrect
There is a ton of scientific evidence that animals are sentient beings. Just because you don't know about it (probably because you don't want to), doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
It amazes me the denial that meat eaters are in to justify their addiction. Despite undercover investigation after undercover investigation documenting shocking animal cruelty at factory farms and slaughterhouses, many meat eaters blithely declare that it's all made up, there's no evidence for cruelty, etc, etc. Talk about a self righteous bunch!
- tpanitz
November 25, 2009 11:22PM
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Dear tpanitz
There seems to be a degree of self righteousness in both camps.
- fitz
November 26, 2009 12:33AM
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Self righteous?
How about this? Those of us who choose to live our lives the way we do, because we have free will. Although most live day to day making moral descisions, there are those that don't. For us that do, we don't try to force our lifestyle onto others, say, the way PeTA and other animal rights crack pots do. I agree, there are companies that need to be repremanded for not running clean, efficient operations. But self righteous? Take a good long look in the mirror and ask yourself how many times a day do you impose your lifestyle onto someone else. Me, I could care less what you eat or how much of it or how many cats you own. Why? It's your buisiness. Just like my life is MY buisiness. So butt out.
- cjlee
November 26, 2009 9:55AM
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Ordinarily
I would agree that how you live your life is your own business. However, if your choices involve inflicting pain, suffering, and death on other beings, then it's a generally accepted moral prerogative to "interfere" with such choices by pointing out the lack of ethics in them and requesting the practitioners to stop. When people own human slaves, for example, this kind of interference in the slave owner's choice is considered perfectly legitimate. But, unfortunately, when people use animals as slaves, many people still consider thus "use" legitimate and interference with the choice on moral grounds illegit. As Einstein said, "We must widen our circle of compassion to include all beings" Not just our wonderful human selves.
- tpanitz
November 27, 2009 11:13PM
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Carnivorous animals
If you feel the way you do how can you tolerate carnivorous animals attacking and tearing apart another animal while they are still alive before eating them.
- tbcass
November 27, 2009 7:17PM
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Here's how
There are many things both animals and humans do that I find distasteful or wish were otherwise. In addition to animals tearing themselves apart, I especially disapprove of human greed (like Wall St. bankers stealing the money of ordinary people through bailout mechanisms, CEOs making millions while outsourcing jobs overseas, etc.)., and human cruelty (to both human and non-human animals- assume I don't need to produce examples here). However, I would never advocate cruel and abusive treatment to these people in return. The "eye for an eye" approach is an outmoded ethics , replaced by Christian ideals of compassion and forgiveness.
Besides, you undoubtedly consider yourself superior to animals, and therefore should operate on a superior moral plane to them.
- tpanitz
November 27, 2009 11:14PM
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What is superior
What is a superior moral plane? How do you determine which form of morality is superior?
- tbcass
November 28, 2009 5:33AM
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Moral plane
Postulating moral planes means that more is expected of some beings than others, because of particular gifts they have. Human adults are expected to conduct themselves differently than babies and small children , who lack the self control, as well as the reasoning ability that adults are expected to have. Babies' behavior is focused primarily on obtaining their needs, while the same behavior in adults would be considered selfish, egocentric, and infantile.
Animals cannot be expected to have the same standards applied to them as to humans because they lack some of the abilities humans have, like higher reasoning power. Much (though certainly not all depending on the species) animal behavior is instinctual (like stalking prey and tearing it apart), which puts it outside the realm of ethics .
The fact that humans have some superior abilities to animals does not, however, give them the right to abuse or torture animals. If anything, humans' superior abilities, including reasoning and ethical judgment, requires that they treat other creatures with more compassion and consideration, not less.
- tpanitz
November 29, 2009 9:23PM
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Chimpanzee?
I think you'll find that at the very least chimpanzees have been proven to recognise their own reflection. And this is the not the sole criteria for a creature to be considered as 'sentient'. Any animal you have ever seen flinch from pain, recognise your smell, or react to pleasure sensations could be considered sentient enough to suffer from a drawn out death, such as often happens despite all our regulations on animal farming, which themselves are really very poor.
- trufflyesmerelda November 26, 2009 11:42AM
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More information needed
It's unfortunate that your statements triggered responses that worked to shut down the potential for debate by implying judgments of your character. I suppose this is a likely pitfall when the emotions run so high.
In order to best approach your post, however, we'd need to make sure we're speaking the same language. If you're saying that no nonhuman animals are sentient, then what, exactly do you mean by sentient? Awareness carries with it an enormous spectrum, not the least of which is the ability to recognize fear and pain to the extent of being emotionally impacted by it. Once we are using and understanding common terminology, it will be easier to approach your contentions.
At the very least, however, I'd like to bypass comments regarding history and nature. Moral behavior is not based upon what humans have done in the past, and it is not based on what other animals are doing on Earth.
In addition, we should be able to avoid bringing religious dogma into the mix, because this is an unrelated topic. The issue here is whether or not killing a turkey for the purposes of pleasure and tradition can be morally justified.
- mike
November 26, 2009 8:49PM
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Dear Mike re: Sentient
What I was inferring ( meaning I should have explained ) with regards to sentience in non human animals , to whit: turkey is this:
I realize turkeys and other animals feel pain and fear. Perhaps identical to us. But there is much more than this to sentience. Self-awareness (not just a puzzled reaction to the image in a mirror). Sapience, consciousness of self and more.
Even dew worms are sentient but I still use them for bait with never a second thought. The fish? I just club it or let it suffocate in the bottom of the boat.
As I write this I'm starting to see what a brute I really am and in all fairness to you and the other responders it could well be that next year I'll shoot my turkey in the wild ensuring an instant painless death. Then perhaps killing a turkey for the purposes of tasty nourishment and tradition can be morally justified. Greatly appreciate your insight into this matter.
- fitz
November 26, 2009 11:18PM
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On awareness
Perhaps the greatest indicator of self-awareness is the ability to self-assess one's moral compass. My contention is that the vast majority of people on this planet (in the area of 95%, but probably much, much more) carry within them identical core values.
You are the first people I've encountered on this board who has agreed to read and consider rational responses instead of immediately resorting to calculating a semantically sound rebuttal.
It took me months to logically arrive at veganism after my first realization that my actions were not in sync with my values. I assure you I'm not the type who reads a PeTA public service announcement or who, after being screamed at by picketers, changes my world view. It took a considerable amount of reading on moral theory, investigation into health , animal agribusiness, and a host of other areas.
It was a pleasure discussing with you.
- mike
November 27, 2009 10:18AM
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heh...I meant "person"
unless you're representing an entire people... :-)
- mike
November 27, 2009 10:31AM
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Because
"You are the first people I've encountered on this board who has agreed to read and consider rational responses instead of immediately resorting to calculating a semantically sound rebuttal."
That is because they are responding to the Fascist methods and moral indignity that Peta displays toward those who disagree with them. If your moral beliefs lead you to Veganism I'm fine with that. Please do not, however, try to persuade me to your point of view and I will not try to convince you to eat meat .
Members of PETA want the treatment of animals put on the same legal plane as the treatment of humans. If you do that then you have to arrest wild animals that kill other animals which is something they have to do to live. They say that is all right because it is their natural way. Then you point out that puts animals on a lower legal plane than humans and their whole argument falls apart although they don't see it that way. Trust me I've actually had these types of discussions on these forums.
- tbcass
November 27, 2009 7:29PM
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big yuck
If a dead turkey really turns you on, read this:
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-turkeys-life-2009-11 #top
It really irks me that so many of my fellow liberals remain so ignorant, emotional and irrational about their meat addiction, even in the face of massive amounts of information about how unhealthy, bad for the environment , and bad for the animals eating meat is. Do yourself a favor and go vegan (and BTW, there's more to eat as a vegan than tofu and sprouts. Much more.)
- ardeth
November 25, 2009 10:05PM
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And don't forget...
All of the supplements that go along with not eating a balanced diet that includes, guess what, meat . Yes, it is scientific fact, done by scientific studies, that meat needs to be included in a well balanced diet. How much, depends on your levels of activity. Here's a for instance: A test on this matter was run involving several women that were highly active, dance, martial arts, and just simply working out on a daily basis. Those that were willing to participate went off of their strictly vegan diet for several weeks. Results? They all agreed to having higher metabolism, not feeling drained of energy , more mental activity and all around better feelings. Some said they would go back to being vegan, others said they would start adding meats back to their diets. Hmm, seems like science and common sense has trumped emotion once again.
- cjlee
November 26, 2009 10:05AM
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Substitutes.
A balanced diet does not have to include meat at all. As long as you are absorbing the necessary vitamins and nutrients (protein, iron, etc) then you have a balanced diet. True, this is most easily, and perhaps best, achieved through eating an amount of meat (and note, that only means 'some', not 'lots'), but there are alternatives that provide all these necessary vitamins and nutrients, whether they be food products (not at all meaning uniquely Quorn, tofu or other meat-replacement products - try pulses, nuts, eggs etc) or tablets, which do not involve the sometimes hugely inhumane process of animal raising and slaughter, nor the massive expenditure of energy which is currently contributing even further to our collective and dangerously large carbon footprint. If you so direly require a diet containing specifically meat, then your problem is either a serious medical one, or a serious stubbornness one.
- trufflyesmerelda November 26, 2009 11:57AM
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Hmmm....
I never once said I "require a diet containing specifically meat ". Nor refered that anyone else does. That is just silly. I plainly stated that healthy diets include meat. Beef, pork, poultry, fish, fowl, mutton. Whatever floats your boat. And yes, in moderation. But leave it to folks like you that wish to impose things on others to ignore the fact that it is a choice and revert to insults and false accusations. I eat meat (if you haven't noticed), I also eat plenty of fresh fruits and vegetables and also peanuts, almonds, cashews and the like. I do this because I choose to. You chose to not eat meat at all. Hey, it's your life. Do with it as you wish. No one is ever going to twist your arm to do other wise (except for the government of course). So why spend all of this time trying to villify people like me and try to impose your lifestyle. Lets just say our points have been made and call it what it is. A choice.
- cjlee
November 26, 2009 4:13PM
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Actually...
I never quoted you as saying that you "require a diet containing specifically meat ". What you did say was that "meat needs to be included in a well balanced diet", which I thought you ought to know was incorrect. I would also like to say that I know perfectly well that is is a choice: I am not a vegetarian . I merely thought your argument was inaccurate. So I think we can see who was making the real false accusations. Don't assume.
- trufflyesmerelda December 2, 2009 11:27AM
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That's an interesting claim
This study you speak of, the one that concludes that " meat needs to be included in a well-balanced diet ."
Please provide some links to these studies.
My major concern with such a conclusion, would be that with the exception of vitamin B12, there are no nutrients that one cannot obtain from a plant-based diet or synthesize naturally from plant-based nutrients.
If you can support your claim, there would be a greater chance of having a debate on the topic.
- mike
November 26, 2009 10:39PM
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Wrong debate
This debate isn't about what is the healthiest diet . It also isn't about whether people should eat meat or not. That is a personal decision and is nobody else's business. This is about PETA , their methods and true agenda to force all others who disagree with them to comply with their personal morality.
- tbcass
November 27, 2009 6:00AM
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I disagree
The article is about 10 reasons not to have a turkey for Thanksgiving, the focus was primarily on ethics , and the post to which I was responding was using health as a justification for ignoring the ethical aspects.
While many people responded to this article by PeTA by committing a fallacists fallacy, I would think a response to the specific points made in the article are perfectly appropriate for this page.
- mike
November 27, 2009 10:54AM
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Actually
There are arguements for both health AND ethics . Read the article again. But, when dealing with PeTA, anything goes. Just like all other wack job associations, find something, anything to stir confrontation. No, I don't like PeTA, anyone associated with them, or their ultimate motives. In fact, the sooner they are banned, for being the #1 Domestic Terrorists as reported by the FBI, the more people will start thinking like humans again instead of brain dead drones that need to be instructed on what they think and how they feel. It really is shameful.
I'm out.
- cjlee
November 27, 2009 11:25AM
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We're actually almost aligned on this...
I, too, don't like PeTA, and I also disagree with their primary motives. I think it is frightening that you would have the FBI ban them for being domestic terrorists. PeTA, as misaligned as their ideas, motives, publicity stunts, should have every right to make themselves heard and seen.
I question your suggestion that people who live in a country where organizations that challenge popular opinions are banned would ever be able to rise above the status of drone.
- mike
November 27, 2009 3:34PM
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It really irks me
That people such as your self seem intent on forcing their own sense of morality on others. You say it "irks" you that your fellow Liberals eat meat . I bet they could care less that you don't. Is it "Liberal" to try to force others to agree to your moral agenda. As far as "meat addiction" (totally stupid BTW. I guess eating anything is an addiction because we can't live without it) do you have a "Vegetable Addiction"?
- tbcass
November 27, 2009 6:08AM
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err
Anyone up for a top ten reasons not to trust PETA ?
- Father Time
November 27, 2009 4:55AM
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What is PETA?
PETA is Fascist organization with the desire to force their moral and political beliefs on all who disagree with them through any means possible.
- tbcass
November 27, 2009 5:55AM
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And
This debate isn't about what is the healthiest diet . It also isn't about whether people should eat meat or not. That is a personal decision and is nobody else's business. This is about PETA , their methods and true agenda to force all others who disagree with them to comply with their personal morality.
- tbcass
November 27, 2009 6:00AM
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But
Ordinarily I would agree that how you live your life is your own business. However, if your choices involve inflicting pain, suffering, and death on other beings, then it's a generally accepted moral prerogative to "interfere" with such choices by pointing out the lack of ethics in them and requesting the practitioners to stop. When people own human slaves, for example, this kind of interference in the slave owner's choice is considered perfectly legitimate. But, unfortunately, when people use animals as slaves, many people still consider thus "use" legitimate and interference with the choice on moral grounds illegit. As Einstein said, "We must widen our circle of compassion to include all beings." Not just our wonderful human selves.
- tpanitz
November 27, 2009 11:19PM
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Only your opinion
I disagree because I firmly believe that as a human I have the right as a species to eat the flesh of other animals . Humans have been doing this for millennia, and I believe it is natural. Just because people like you have decided that now is the time that we should stop this practice, that it is immoral, is no reason that I should agree with you. Go ahead and become a Vegan but don't take this morally superior high ground and tell me I'm wrong. In my mind it is morally wrong to try to stop me from eating meat against my will. It's called freedom of choice.
- tbcass
November 28, 2009 5:44AM
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Rights
You seem to be assigning "rights" to yourself that have no basis in law . Human rights are based on the Declaration of the Rights of Man, formulated at the time of the French Revolution in 1789, as well as the UN's mandate on Human Rights of 1948. Both mention the right of people to be free from tyranny, to have basic needs provided for, etc., but nowhere in either document does it say that people have the right to slay other species to satiate their appetites.
The fact that flesh eating has been done for a long time doesn't make it right. Murder has been around for as long as our species has existed, but I don't think you would argue that since this is so we should stop apprehending and punishing murderers. Likewise human slavery existed for thousands of years; maybe you feel we should bring it back again in this country since it's a time honored "tradition." (which in fact is what slave owners of the 1800's did argue - that and the fact that slavery is mentioned in the Bible so it must be ok).
Would you uphold modern slave owners' freedom of choice to own human slaves?
- tpanitz
November 29, 2009 9:41PM
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And what makes it wrong?
"The fact that flesh eating has been done for a long time doesn't make it right."
And the fact that you don't want people doing it any more doesn't make it wrong either. You only want it to be wrong because you don't like it. Because you don't like it you don't want anybody else to do it either. Pretty selfish on your part I'd say.
Trying to equate slavery to eating meat is a red herring. There is absolutely no correlation between the two. One is a an affront against others of our own species. The other is the perfectly natural act of one species consuming the flesh of another for energy and survival. The primary goal of any species is propagation of their own kind through reproduction and consuming other species (including plants and animals ) to stay alive. Like it or not that's the way it is. Why can't you and others like you just live your life the way you want and let others live theirs? In my mind what you are doing is immoral.
"Both mention the right of people to be free from tyranny, to have basic needs provided for, etc., but nowhere in either document does it say that people have the right to slay other species to satiate their appetites."
Absolutely absurd. So anything not mentioned in those documents is not a right? That defies any kid of logic but, since you brought it up, what about my right to be free from the tyranny of vegans trying to prevent me from eating the meat I like? I consider eating meat a basic need and yet you want to take that away from me. Get lost!
- tbcass
November 30, 2009 6:50AM
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This is what makes it wrong
You are incorrect - I like meat and used to cook and eat a lot of it. I switched to vegetarian at age 45 and vegan at 52 because I've learned that it's wrong to eat something that involves killing other beings who value their lives just as much as you do (if you doubt this watch videos of animals at slaughterhouses). Considering that over 95% of meat in this country comes from factory farms where the treatment of animals is horrendous, the cruelty alone would keep any decent person from participating in this system. Who is being selfish?
Please don't try to talk to me about plant "feelings" (theorized but unsubstantiated) and that when I kill plants to eat them, I am killing something alive. This is true, but plants lack brains and central nervous systems and thus have no mechanism to experience pain, or have a sense of self as many animals (certainly cows, pigs, chickens and sheep) do.
A further problem with meat eating is that it is not good for the human body and causes many chronic diseases like heart disease (the biggest killer in this country), stroke, diabetes , and some cancers (colon, prostate, breast). Vegetarian populations have much lower incidences of these diseases. When formerly veg populations (like China) adopt western diets, incidences of these diseases skyrockets. We then experiment on animals (really gruesome stuff) to find cures for what are essentially preventable, self inflicted diseases.
Whether you like it or not or want to recognize it or not, human and animal slavery have a great deal in common, and in fact support one another. Historically it is believed that humans first enslaved animals to provide labor , clothing and food , and that once the concept that it is alright to steal another living being's life for your own purposes was established, it was easy to move on to enslave humans as well. Anything you can do to one species you can do to another. As late as the 18th century it is believed that 3/4 of humans on earth were slaves (if not actually called such they were serfs, peasants on aristocrats' land, etc. - slaves in deed if not name). Humans being what they are, it was necessary that humans first escape slavery, and today most have. It will probably take much longer for animals to escape theirs.
Finally, what you call rights are actually preferences on your part. Rights are legal concepts.
- tpanitz
December 1, 2009 7:49PM
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