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Qantas Airlines Refuses to Allow Daniel McCluskie to Sit Next to Pre-Teen Girl

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Daniel McCluskie, a nurse, was forced to switch seats when he was seated next to an unaccompanied young girl on a recent Qantas flight.

McCluskie, who did not do anything improper, was flying from Wagga Wagga, Australia to Sydney, Australia in June when he wasked to move seats, reports smh.com.au.

After an airline safety demonstration, a flight attendant asked a woman to swap seats with McCluskie, who was sitting next to a girl, who was thought to be 10 years old.

McCluskie later asked why he had been moved. He was told it was the policy of Qantas not to allow men sit next to non-related unaccompanied children.

McCluskie told smh.com.au: "There were people that looked during the actual move, people looked at me or looked around because there was a bit of a ruckus at the back of the plane. And then the man in front of me throughout the flight kept looking at me and obviously my sense of paranoia was heightened, if you want to call it that, because of what had occurred."

"After the plane had taken off, the air hostess thanked the woman that had moved, but not me, which kind of hurt me or pissed me off a bit more because it appeared I was in the wrong, because it seemed I had this sign I couldn't see above my head that said 'child molester' or 'kiddie fiddler' whereas she did the gracious thing and moved to protect the greater good of the child."

McCluskie was later told by Qantas that "it was the policy and it was what people who send unaccompanied minors on flights want and it's not their fault..."

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Robobrain's picture

That's BS. There are

That's BS. There are homosexual pedophiles too. Just look under a catholic church. It is still possible that this women could have molested the young girl....

DesElms's picture

@Robobrain: The statistics

@Robobrain: The statistics and facts about women being pedophiles is well-covered here, in at least my comments. How 'bout you bother actually READING them before so embarrassing yourself, as you have, here.

Also, please post your words just once. This (to which I'm responding) is a duplicate posting.

Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

Robobrain's picture

That's BS. There are

That's BS. There are homosexual pedophiles too. Just look under a catholic church. It is still possible that this women could have molested the young girl....

DesElms's picture

@Robobrain: Please post your

@Robobrain: Please post your words just once. This (to which I'm responding; and now this response, too... but it's necessary... sort of like cops being allowed to speed) is a duplicate posting.

Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

jwmtb's picture

Good for Qantas. They did the

Good for Qantas. They did the right thing.

Mtguy12's picture

The simple reality of this is

The simple reality of this is that it is a sexist policy (just as British Airways' was) that is "acceptable" because it is sexist against men only; if it was sexist and racist ie they couldn't be seated next to black men it wouldn't be deemed "acceptable" for the obvious racist reasons. No amount of fluffed "statistics" changes that. Those trying to justify it using terms like "common sense" or something similar could use some in that common sense implies the vast majority of men don't molest children just like they don't beat their wives or murder people.

DesElms's picture

@Mtguy12: The entire

@Mtguy12: The entire "sexist" or sexism argument -- and especially the part of it which compares it, in this case, with either racial or gender inequality -- simply misses the point, as I clearly explained in my long initial post number 148704, here, is the reality of today's world. More pedophiles are men than are women. Period. No statistics have been "fluffed," and all your wishing in the world won't change that.

But it's an "all thumbs are fingers, but not all finger are thumbs" sort of thing. That most men are pedophiles... no... no one said that. Not even MANY men are pedophiles. That all men now pay the suspicion price for the tiny minority who are truly sucks. I'm with ya', there.

However, as I ALSO wrote about in that post, which you've apparently not read, is that virtually no organization or legal entity -- from schools, to churches, to the YMCA, to both the Boy Scounts and Girl Scouts, and I could go on, and on, and on -- will allow ANY adults, be they male or female, to have prolonged interaction with children unless they've been carefully vetted and background checked. Some organizations/entities even require bonding.

As to your "common sense" argument, you've missed the point, yet again. You are absolutely correct that the vast majority of men don't molest children. No argument, here. Moreover, if you read my long post number 148704, here, it was precisely that things in society have degraded to the point that NO man is now trusted, it seems, which I so lamented. So I'm with you on at least that general sentiment. However, that most men don't molest children isn't the point. The point is that enough do, and that the consequences are typically so profoundly horrific, life-altering and lasting throughout a child-turned-adult's life, that to exercise anything short of an abundance of caution is downright irresponsible.

Think of it, a little bit, as one might think of seat belt laws. I'm such a careful -- nay, conservative, truth be known -- driver that I've not been thrown against and held into place by my seatbelt in something like 30 years. Seriously. Most drivers, in fact, rarely actually need to be wearing their seatbelts maybe even as much 99.999% of the time. They just don't need them...

...that is, until they finally do. But more importantly than that, the consequences WHEN they finally do, if they're NOT wearing their seatbelts, are so potentially profoundly horrific, life-altering and lasting for the rest of their lives (that is, assuming they survive) that society -- probably even you, I'd wager -- have no problem making seatbelts an absolutely requirement.

Whenever I give one of my talks at a churchh or to a community group about prostitution (my ministry includes helping the prostituted, among others; as well as showing communities how to rid themselves of it) I get into the role that childhood sexual abuse by trusted adults plays in prostitution. Yes, there's a huge and glaring connection!

I say: "What I'm about to tell you is only anecdotal, here, tonight; but only because I've not prepared myself for tonight's presentation with the actual current numbers. I'm confident, though, that the numbers, if I had them here, tonight, would bear this out... they certainly did when I actually did check a few years back. While it is ridiculous... ludicrous to suggest that every women who's sexually abused as a child by a trusted adult ends-up in prostitution; it is positively true that nearly every prostituted woman was sexually abused as a child by a trusted adult."

I say it, and then I pause for the inevitable silence, then gasp, then silence. But that's nothing. You should hear their reaction when I later get to the part about the statistical prevalence of prostitution's customers, right in the very room in which they're sitting; how if we drew a bunch of only five- to ten-foot diameter circles around each and every person in the room, there would be at least one person -- nearly always a male -- in every single circle who had, either chronically, or at least more than once in his life, patronized a prostituted woman... or even a man. You should see the silence, then gasp, then silence exhibited by the women in the audience when they contemplate THAT... especially if their husbands are in the room. But now I digress. Sorry.

My point is that prostitution -- or, more accurately, a woman's marginal propensity to, at some point in her life, engage in prostitution (be it for cash, or for drugs or booze, or for a ride someplace, or for place to stay or live... 'cause ALL of those are forms of prostitution) -- is but one of pedophila's profoundly horrific and flatly life-altering consequences which can manifest itself one or multiple times, or chronically, in a woman's life. And the more we all learn about prostitution, the more we realize that it's much the same for men who were sexually abused as children by a trusted adult. Or by ANY adult, for that matter...

...including one they met on a plane.

And if you had read my long comment 148704, here, you'd realize that the harm which can be done to a child needn't necessarily be the result of an actual sexual act; that pedophilia and its harm comes as much from the words and mind games as from the actual touching and more. What a real pedophile -- even though you and I know that there was almost certainly not one on that Qantas plane... or probably flying anywhere on any Qatas plane at the time -- could do to a kid, just with words and actions which fall short of actual sexual contact and/or abuse, you just cannot, apparently, imagine.

I'm sorry, Mtguy12, but you're just not looking at it right. I understand your frustration; it's maddening and humiliating for ALL men, today, to carry the suspicion load for the tiny percentage of idiot men who are pedophiles. It's truly a "one bad apple spoils the whole barrel" sort of thing. I get that, and I feel your pain over it.

But a necessary evil it now is. It just is. And that's why it's not discrimination... not really. It only FEELS that way to people like me, and I'll bet you, who would never harm a child under any circumstances, and who HATE the current presumption that we would until it's proven that we wouldn't. I, too, cannot even BEGIN to adequately articulate just how awful that feels...

...and it is that, @Mtguy12, I'm virtually certain, that has you so angry. It's got me angry, too.

But, again, it's now a necessary evil. It just is.

Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

eddiegordo's picture

"As to your "common sense"

"As to your "common sense" argument, you've missed the point, yet again."

So have you, it is discrimination, if a black man was asked to swap seats because he was sat next to an old lady with some money in her purse, it would be illegal, so why is it different in this case?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination

Check this out, "Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based on his or her membership - or perceived membership - in a certain group or category."

How the hell is it not discrimination when you ask a man (one group of people, more likely considered to be a peadophile) to swap with a woman (from another group, less likely by societies perceptions to be a peadophile) for no other reason than the man is in a category more likely to be considered a peadophile.

A black man, going by crime statistics in most western countries, is far more likely to commit a violent crime than a white or asian man, however if you acted upon this as fact for ALL black men, and acted upon it in a way in which this airline did, it would be considered racist and an act of discrimination.

Going by your logic its not a bad thing to deny people a job based on the fact that the group or category they come from is more likely to commit a criminal offense than people from another category.

Look forward to your response.

DesElms's picture

@eddiegordo wrote: "Look

@eddiegordo wrote: "Look forward to your response."

MY RESPONSE: I'll bet not by the time you get done reading it.

@eddiegordo wrote: "...if a black man was asked to swap seats because he was sat next to an old lady with some money in her purse, it would be illegal, so why is it different in this case?"

MY RESPONSE: First of all, it's "because he had been seated," not "because he was sat." But now I digress. Sorry.

Secondly, if he were moved just because he's black, then that would, indeed, be discrimination... though not in quite the way, nor for quite the reasons, that you clearly believe (more on that in a moment).

If, on the other hand, he had been moved because he was scary-looking, regardless of his skin color, such that any reasonable person -- old lady with money in her purse, or otherwise -- would feel uncomfortable sitting next to him, then that would not be discrimination. In that case, there would be a legitimate good faith reason for moving him, having nothing to do with race. Further, while race, alone, is something which Title VII specifically protects, "scary looking" isn't; and the latter becomes a sub-categorization based on reasonable good faith belief that would be the actual proximate cause for the moving, and so would not, then, be discrimination.

The notion of "protects," as described in the previous paragraph, is important to understand, here. Your entire argument leaves out the legal concept of "protected class." Title VII specifically lists black persons as having been historically discriminated against, and so they are a "protected class" of persons for whom the law has created a higher standard with regard to discrimination. Doing pretty much anything to anyone just because s/he's black triggers the higher standard and is, as provided in Title VII, "discrimination," by definition. However, neither "scary looking" people, nor pedophils, are protected classes. It's more difficult, then, to discriminate against anyone who's not in a "protected class." It's easier, though, if either the "scary looking person," or the pedophile, is discriminated against on account of skin color. Or religion. Or gender. Etc.

And, thank you, but I don't need to have discrimination explained to me... least of all, by Wikipedia. I've FORGOTTEN more about it than you clearly currently know, and will likely ever know. From it, though, you, @eddiegordo, quote: "Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based on his or her membership - or perceived membership - in a certain group or category."

MY REPLY: By "group" or "category," the definition refers to either protected classes, and/or groups of persons who are involuntarily what they are and have no control over same; and who are not further sub-categorized in a manner that fails the "reasonableness" and/or "good faith belief" test, and said sub-categorization is actually the proximate cause of the seeming, but not actual, discrimination.

The man was moved not because he was grouped/categorized as a man, which is definitely something over which he has no control (er... well... that gender reassignment is possible doesn't count... the courts, believe it or not, have actually ruled on that). Had he been, then, yes, that would have been prima facie discrimination... or would at least appear to be. However, beyond that, he was further sub-grouped/sub-categorized pursuant to the "reasonable good faith belief" (a critical phrase, with huge meaning in law) based on what is known about males' versus females' marginal propensity to be pedophiles, and what that could potentially mean, therfore, with respect to the safety of the child. No court in the land would find that to have been discrimination.

Indeed, discriminating against them just because they're men would would be discrimination based on gender, which is not allowed. However, because men aren't a protected class, the standards by which said discrimination would be determined would be much lower, and so it all may have survived the test, even without the sub-categorical "reasonable good faith belief." However, with it, it's shoe-in for not being discrimination. I'm sorry. That's just how the courts decide such things.

The flight crew, pursuant to its "reasonable good faith belief" that, because of the statistics regarding whether it would be more likely that a man or a woman could potentially be a pedophile, made a decision to err on the side of the child's safety and place a woman next to her. Even a judge who came-up through the system as a civil rights lawyer would find that that is not discrimination. I'm sorry, it's just not.

@eddiegordo wrote: "How the hell is it not discrimination when you ask a man (one group of people, more likely considered to be a peadophile)..."

MY RESPONSE: It's "pedophile" not "peadophile." We use the Americanized spelling, while you seem to be going for the British spelling, "paedophile," just as an old British spelling of "encyclopaedia" is different from the American "encyclopedia." However, there is no word "peadophile," so you missed it even more completely. But I'm digressing, again. Sorry.

@eddiegordo continued: "...to swap with a woman (from another group, less likely by societies perceptions to be a peadophile) for no other reason than the man is in a category more likely to be considered a peadophile."

MY RESPONSE: I just explained all that.

@eddiegordo wrote: "A black man, going by crime statistics in most western countries, is far more likely to commit a violent crime than a white or asian man, however if you acted upon this as fact for ALL black men, and acted upon it in a way in which this airline did, it would be considered racist and an act of discrimination."

MY RESPONSE: Again, you ignore that the black man is in a protected class, pursuant to Title VII. That, alone, renders your argument effectively moot; however in your hypothetical you include additional factors, and categorization possibilities which, rather than supporting your position, are actually PRECISELY why the standards of determination are higher for persons in protected classes. You really need to look-up "protected class" on Wikipedia, rather than "discrimination." Though since Wikipedia didn't really help you to understand discrimination, my hopes are not high.

@eddiegordo wrote: "Going by your logic its not a bad thing to deny people a job based on the fact that the group or category they come from is more likely to commit a criminal offense than people from another category."

MY RESPONSE: Since it's crystal clear that you never actually understood my logic, it surprises me not that you would so grossly misstate what I would proffer is that to which it leads. It is positively a bad thing to deny someone a job based SOLELY (and that's a key word) on said someone's being a member of a group or category of persons statistically more likely to commit a criminal offense. That's just wrong, prima facie. But it may not necessarily be discrimination, and so illegal.

Unless said category or group is a "protected class," then the standard for determining whether or not it's discrimination is somewhat lower; and so, then, said at least SEEMING discrimination may actually be allowed. But, if said someone who was denied a job was so denied not only because he's in a category or group of persons who are statistically more likely to commit a criminal offense, but said category or group is also a "protected class," then it would almost certainly be considered discrimination.

This is a hard subject, @eddiegordo. It's okay not to know all its ins and outs and subleties. It would be nice, though, if those who don't really understand such things, yet make inaccurate comments about what it all means -- repleat with insistance the they're right, and that others are wrong, punctuated by a both earthy and pejorative "what the hell" -- would have a little bit of humility about it... maybe even couch their arguments in the more friendly and deferential form of conditional statements or even questions which include qualifiers like "maybe I don't understand, but I thought" or such as that.

The bottom line, though, is that airlines move people around all the time, and for all manner of reasons, some of them good, others maybe not so good: some of the ethically, morally or legally defensible, some not so much; and some of them, sometimes, just on a whim... reasonable or otherwise. None of them, though, are illegal on such as Title VII grounds; and all of them are agreed-to, in any case, by the passenger, in the fine print on the ticket (or some other document referred-to thereon, and made a part thereof by said reference). There are also some pretty potent laws which govern what airline crews can and cannot do, especially once airborne, but even while still on the ground, as long as that door is closed and sealed.

Trust me, nothing illegal happened, here; and the airline was in the right to err on the side of safety. What all the arguments which insist otherwise seem to be forgetting, here, is that we're talking about a little girl... an innocent of innocents. It's our job, as adults, pursuant to the implied social contract, and in the spirit of it taking a village to raise a child, to exercise and abundance of caution so that nothing will happen to the children in our care.

The crew was, as a matter of law, "in loco parentis," and so had the societal (and legal, too) responsibility to act as the child's parent would act, or better. The airline crew did that. Your arguments, here, and those similar of others, fail to recognize the eminence of the safety of the child over any adult's perceived sense or observable actuality of discrimination. There are, in law, such hierarchies.

Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

Wagahai's picture

The point of this article is

The point of this article is that the flight attendant was rude, and insensitive. There is nothing wrong to request that he move, but he should have been thanked for the inconvenience. He should escalate his complaint based on how he was treated.

DesElms's picture

@Wagahai: Agreed!

@Wagahai: Agreed!

Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

jwbales's picture

When airlines make seat

When airlines make seat assignments, they know your gender and your age. So if it is Qantas' policy not to seat men next to unrelated children, then why did they seat the man next to the child to begin with?

They should have apologized and explained to both the man and the woman that Qantas had made a seating mistake and then thanked them both for helping the airline correct its mistake.

DesElms's picture

@jwbales: Agreed!

@jwbales: Agreed!

Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

DesElms's picture

The airlines's policy is

The airlines's policy is reasonable; however, in this case, it executed said policy very clumsily.

In a world wherein volunteers for youth groups, Sunday school teachers, and all manner of others who interact with children are routinely background checked and screened in other ways in order to protect them, it is completely reasonable that an airline would not want to place any adult male about which it knew nothing next to a 10-year-old child -- a little girl, no less -- for the duration of a flight. It is, in light of the sad reality of the world of all manner of adult sexual abuse of children, it is perfectly reasonable for the airline to exercise an abundance of caution and place next to the little a woman instead of a man.

What's sad is that the airline did it quite that way. As commenter "FSC" correctly said, it all should have been sorted out before anyone even boarded the plane. Shame on Qantas for such ham-handedness.

That said, McCluskie, it seems to me, is reading a lot into things which may or may not be reasonable... including and especially the man in front of him whom he assumed was thinking of him as a pedophile or something. McCluskie's quote about that included a mention of his paranoia. I posit that that's exactly what it was.

That he even had such paranoia; that it hit him just exactly what was going on, and how it might look to people, and that the very notion of anyone thinking McCluskie might be a man unworthy (perhaps because he's a pedophile or something) of sitting next to a child... all of that flitting through McCluskie's mind, and how it made him feel: That, actually, is the worst part of this story.

Years ago, in the mid-1980s, not nearly long enough after my divorce (I now believe that no one should date anyone until at least three years after they divorce; this was only weeks after my divorce, and only months after the separation... so it was too soon... but I digress... sorry), I was dating a lovely woman about whom I sometimes wonder, as I think back on it, if she was sexually abused by some trusted adult in her life. Some of the comments she made at times, in retrospect, now that I've had some formal training in how to recognize it, seemed telling. The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children had only recently, at that time, been founded, and was still both small and not-well-known.

One morning as we were sitting at the table, having our breakfast cereal, I mentioned the poor kid whose face was plastered on the milk carton. Such plasterings were new then, and I was only really beginning to notice it. She then launched -- although, granted, only casually... but also with a lament -- into a bit of a homily about the likely reality of missing later-found-murdered children in America; about how it's nearly always at the hand of a parent or other trusted family member; and about how much more of it -- how unbelievably much more, she made it a point of emphasis -- goes on than anyone realizes.

Turns out she was right, we now, in our 20/20-visioned hindsight, know. The upside of the campaign of awareness that has occurred in America since has been the rooting out of all manner of molesters, the exposure of all the pedophile priests, and a raft of policies and procedures in nearly all things related to children which are designed to protect them. And all of that is good; and Qantas's policy is nothing but that. Kudos to Qantas.

The downside, though, is that this world has now bred a generation persons who think, maybe, that pretty much anyone -- certainly any male -- could be a pedophile... an abuser... someone not to be trusted around children. Most churches, now, so screen even their male pastors that many such pastors worry about ever being alone with at least very young children, and possibly children, at all... making it difficult, indeed, to teach a confirmation class, for example. Those wearing the collar should be the most trusted of all, but, sadly, at least SOME of those (and, seriously, folks, it's a tiny, tiny minority) wearing the collar in the Roman Catholic church have kinda' ruined it for everyone.

Living in a world of fear -- and the sometimes irrational overabundance of caution that often accompanies it -- makes for a very unpleasant world, indeed. While I'm glad the the result is that fewer children will, in the future, become adults with horrific memories of abuse at the hands of trusted adults in their childhood lives, it makes me sad that the price we're payingg for it is that the first imaginings of the likes of McCluskie were as he imagined; or that anyone else in that anyone else in the plane might have so imagined, as well. While I'm certain that nowhere NEAR as many as McCluskie believed actually even gave it a second thought, there's no doubt in my mind that at least someone else on that plane did. Sadly, such as that may just have to be the way things are for the foreseeable future.

To commenter "dotkhan": Of course, what I've just written is a commentary -- a sad one, perhaps -- on exactly what you're saying; though I must say that you're wrong that its "perveted thinking" or "irrational fear" or "caving in." In light of what we now know -- in light of how right that old girlfriend of mine ended-up being -- what Qantas did, seriously, was reasonable. Of course you're right that even the most depraved molester would likely not touch the child inappropriately during the flight, remember that molestation is as much about the grooming and arranging for things to happen later as it is about the actual acts. What a pedophile could have said to the little girl during however long is the flight could be as harmful, in the longrun, as if he had touched her. I invite you to take the time to actually learn what it's all about. What's obvious is only a part of it.

Nice sardonicism, though, with the "...the policy should be all children should travel with a stranger." Though you were only kidding -- going for the ridiculous to make your point -- thank goodness no one would ever actually consider such a thing.

To "raptorcat," who wrote, "What's most disturbing is that women can be pedophiles, too. To simply assume that a man traveling alone is a bigger threat to the child than a woman traveling alone is sexist": While it's absolutely true that, technically, females may be pedophiles, too, their percentage of all who are is so infinitesimally small that your argument, I'm afraid, is rendered functionally and practicably meritless. Moreover, though, if you'll take my advice, you need to be careful about making such arguments, in light of the hightened awareness about which I've earlier herein written, because in that context, it comes across almost like a bit of apologia from the local pedophile's club. I know (or at least hope) you didn't mean it that way, but I'm just saying how it can come across, in light of what we all now know about the sexual abuse of children by trusted adults in their lives.

To "sporg0," who wrote, "Just more ridiculous paranoia about all men being bad. A ten year old has no business traveling alone": Again, knowing what we now know, you're simply wrong about it being ridiculous paranoia. And while you may be correct that the child had no business flying alone, it is a very common practice. Parents sign papers, and airlines promise its staff will act in loco parentis during the flight for the child's protection; and then refuse to release the child to anyone at the other end unless it's the person specified by the parent, who can prove who s/he is. If you stop and think about it, all that Qantas's staff was doing was watching over the child, as it had promised her parent it would do. That it did it badly simply means that someone should better train staff how to do it better. But it was, nevertheless, a perfectly understandable thing for it to have done.

To commenter "cityboy" (and to "animals don't have rights" who agreed with him: Again, I seriously doubt that "everyone watching" thought that McCluskie was or could be a pedophile. Remember that the story is about McCluskie's thinking... his worry... his paranoia. And I've herein explained why people sometimes think that way because of the world's heightened awareness, now, of the problem. But in reality, it's very likely that most passengers never even noticed what happened, or, if they did, that McCluskie was potentially harmful to the little girl was the last thing that any of them thought. McCluskie, I assure you, is reading far, far too much into it. Other passengers didn't even know who were the players; didn't even know if McCluskie and the woman knew one another, or if they had decided to swap. Many of them, in fact, could probably not even see that there was a little girl sitting there because of the height of the seats. People who are traveling have other things on their minds. McCluskie, I suspect, is over-thinking it all. And, while you're right that maybe it was the child, and not McCluskie who should have been moved, it's even MORE right what "FSC" wrote, that it should all have been arranged before anyone even boarded the plane. That's part of where Qantas's ham-handedness came in.

This whole thing is not really the story that everyone's apparently thinking it is. I'll bet dollars to donuts that most other passengers didn't even give it a second thought. People move around on planes, either just before take-off, or sometime after. They do it because they ask if they can, or because they're asked to; and no one else in the plane usually knows why, or even wonders about it, truth be known.

Or, especially, cares.

Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

djay's picture

"While it's absolutely true

"While it's absolutely true that, technically, females may be pedophiles, too, their percentage of all who are is so infinitesimally small that your argument, I'm afraid, is rendered functionally and practicably meritless."

Absolutely WRONG! The fact that you feel that since there are more male pedophiles than female makes his argument meirtless proves to me that what you wrote is full of crap! YOUR argument has become meritless.

Also, there is no "technically" when it comes to female pedophiles. They ARE pedophiles. You can try to sweep them under the rug and pretend they don't exist. But they do exist, and female predators molesting children will not make their victims feel any better because you feel it somehow doesn't matter since there happens to be more male predators.

DesElms's picture

@djay: I didn't say... er...

@djay: I didn't say... er... well... strike that; at least I didn't mean that female pedophiles are only "technically" pedophiles. They are, as you say, 100%, bona fide pedophiles, just the same as male ones.

What I meant by "technically" in that sentence -- and, obviously, I did said sentence badly -- was that the statistical number of female pedophiles in comparison with that of male pedophiles is just so, so, so much smaller (for females, than for males), that their incidence is almost a mere technicality. I simply didn't word it right... you're correct, then, about how you intepreted it. But that's not how I meant it. Sorry.

You sure are angry, though, about this subject, djay; and willing to just discard everything else I wrote because I did one tiny part of it less than well. I'm so irritated, frankly, that you are so attacking me, without allowing for that in all that I wrote, I may have innocently worded one tiny part of it poorly so that what I meant is not how you interpreted it -- and simply questioning that in a debate form, in good both faith and humor -- that it's a temptation to ask you if the reason this subject so clearly vexes you is because it's hitting a little too close to home; and to add asking, "you're not registered with any police departments, are you djay?"

But I'll resist that temptation.

Thanks for your input.

Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

Mtguy12's picture

I agree with your comment in

I agree with your comment in its entirety though I would say "there happens to be more reported male predators."

DesElms's picture

@Mtguy12: Thank you... and

@Mtguy12: Thank you... and though you may be correct that it's just a reporting thing, I believe, to the depths of me, that it's more than that; that a female's marginal propensity to become a pedophile is simply microscopic as compare with a male. And experts -- psychologists, the FBI's behavioral analysis unit, the Missing and Exploited Children people -- all agree. Women, by and large, are simply not predisposed to pedophilia to even a tiny fraction of a percent to which are males. They just aren't.

Now, that said, hebephilia -- and, especially, ephebophilia -- are different matters, entirely, when it comes to women. Hebephilia is adult primary sexual attraction to 11-to-14-year-old pubescents; and ephebophilia is adult primary sexual attraction to mid- to late-adolescents, aged 15 to 19. Female hebephilia -- and especially ephebophhilia -- is not-insignificantly more common than female pedophilia.

Women tend to view pre-pubescents -- especially of the same gender, but almost equally the opposite one -- in a more motherly way, even if they've never had children of their own. The vast -- and I mean VAST -- majority of cases of adult female primary sexual attraction to persons below the age of 18 tends to be ephebophilia; and that's just a fact. In fact, careful analysis of the cases of such as younger (but still over 21) female school teachers, for example, having sex with students under 18, suggests that not only is it largely with those in the ephebophilia age range (15 to 19), but their having so engaged likely says nothing about what is their primary sexual interest/attraction in life.

In other words, to put it more crassly, disrespectfully and however else one would like to characterize it: every now and then male high school sophomores, juniors and seniors get laid by the hot fresh-out-of-college new English (or whatever is her subject) teacher; and upon closer examination of her psyche, it turns out that it's got nothing, really, to do, with what is the female teacher's primary sexual interest/attraction in life. Rather, it's usually the case that she's still immature in her thinking such that she's not yet fully converted over into only being attracted to real adults her own age or older. In other words, she more forgot herself than actually was acting on some aberrant sexual predilection. Again, though, I think that that can only even be possible -- if at all -- if the female teacher is young, indeed... early twenties, at the oldest. And if you look at many of the female teacher with male student indiscretions out there, early (to no later than mid) -twenties tends to be the teacher's age.

Again, though, that doesn't make any of it right, or even in the tiniest bit excusable. It is correct, then, that female teachers who get caught doing such things are arrested, tried and convicted. I absolutely agree that that should be the case. But from my research and conversations with both experts, and with two females who were caught-up in precisely such situations, I've come to suspect that when the age of the female adult is very close to the male adolescent, it tends to be more about immaturity and lack of both realization and self-control than it is about deviant driving sexual interest and attraction. Both the woman with whom I've spoken are clearly sexually attracted to adults; and most experts who've interviewed such women have observed similarly.

Again, though, I want to be clear about this: Just because we can kinda' explain it as something different from even ephebophilia in at least some (and I stress that word) cases of young adult females who've stupidly had sexual relations with older adolescents, that certainly doesn't mean that said females shouldn't be brought to criminial justice. They absolutely should. Make no mistake about my feelings, there.

Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

sporg0's picture

Stop replying to every single

Stop replying to every single comment and rambling like a lunatic. Most people just scroll past when they see a huge text block. Your opinions are neither insightful nor entertaining and thus a complete waste of space.

Wagahai's picture

Sorry, but I will have to

Sorry, but I will have to disagree. This topic like many others are more complex than a few sentences. There are also many different perception on a topic. If a person wants to rabble into the wind then that is their concern.

What would be a reason amount of text in a comment? How many times should a person be limited to express there comment? How decides?

These three questions creates a slippy slope that goes against an individuals right to express themselves.

If you don't want to read a person's comment just skip over it.

DesElms's picture

@sporg0: Though I know you

@sporg0: Though I know you were responding to @djay; and that your "Your opinions are..." line was aimed at him...

...your "most people just scroll past when they see a huge text block" was, of course, about my writing, to which @djay had responded.

I respect your opinion, but I'm not sure that "most" people just scroll past. A lot do, though...

...but I see that as a sad commentary on what's happening to America; how it's being "dumbed down" by technology in the form of Twitter and Facebook which try to confine commentary to from 140 characters to maybe 800 to 1,000, give or take. It's creating a generation of attention-deficit-disordered (ADD) multi-taskers who value breadth over depth; who've learned to stop sweating the small stuff in life (when, in fact, it's ALL small stuff, and almost nothing truly substantive can be properly discussed without it); who value such as TV and radio news sound bites, or USA Today "television on newsprint" quality newspaper articles; and who couldn't wade through (at least not with any comprehension) a New Yorker magazine-length article to save their lives.

I see that as tragic... especially when I stop to consider that those breadth-over-depth, ADD-prone multi-taskers will be this country's leaders, someday. Those of us who understand that details really matter find that scary, indeed. That you don't is scary, too.

Also, your "[y]our opinions are neither insightful nor entertaining and thus a complete waste of space," remark to @djay troubles me VERY much. This, too, is a sign of the current and troubling dumbiing-down-of-America times. Young people, I'm increasingly observing, need to be constantly entertained; and can't seem to appreciate anything which isn't entertaining. That's why statistics show -- and this is scary, indeed -- that more young people get their news from The Daily Show than from all other legitimate news outlets, combined.

Don't get me wrong, I love John Daily... and his show; but it's not news. That so many young people think it is, and are are either simply willing to get whatever news they get from it, or actually require its entertainment in order to glean any news from anything at all...

...oh, my. What THAT says for the future of America makes me shiver in my very boots!

Just because something's longer than a 140-character tweet doesn't mean it isn't worth reading. Others have opinions, too; and that they know how to convey them in complex sentences and paragraphs which you nevertheless decry, probably says more about you than it does about them.

A little patience, please. While @djay may very well be overdoing it (I've not looked back through all the other comments to know), his comment on which you were commenting, while inordinately angry for some reason (as is yours in response), was not in any way inappropriate. Not even in the least.

Please don't confuse your losing your patience with a particular poster (apprently @djay, in this case) with any of the issues that you actually raised as a means of attacking him. Instead, have the courage to just say what you actually feel: That he's ticking you off, and then say why. Don't create offenses not committed in order to somehow make your complaint seem more reasonable. Perhaps if you confined your complaint to what it actually is, and not what you'd have the uncareful reader, here, believe that it is, then even you would realize, after having written it, but before actually posting it, that it's YOU whom it makes look bad.

Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com

Veritas nihil veretur nisi abscondi.
Veritas nimium altercando amittitur.

TheShadowKnowz's picture

So this is why the Koala

So this is why the Koala hates Qantas! lol

dotkhan's picture

What kind of perverted

What kind of perverted thinking automatically believes a child will be harmed by a stranger on a crowded plane?

I'd like for companies and politicians to tell people they have some irrational fear instead of caving in and instituting crazy rules like this. The top 2 people most likely to harm children are their parents (Susan Smith, Casey Anthony).

If this really was about protecting kids, the policy should be all children should travel with a stranger.

Question Authority, Anarchy & Assumptions

Raptorcat's picture

That's true, in principle.

That's true, in principle.

The vast majority of pedophiles are family members or friends of the family; people that the child will automatically trust and, therefore make them subject to easy manipulation by an abuser.

The insanity principle is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. The far right, the far left, vegans, creationists and other extremists believe in the insanity principle, religiously.

Raptorcat's picture

What's most disturbing is

What's most disturbing is that women can be pedophiles, too. To simply assume that a man traveling alone is a bigger threat to the child than a woman traveling alone is sexist.

The insanity principle is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. The far right, the far left, vegans, creationists and other extremists believe in the insanity principle, religiously.

EA Salierno's picture

I agree with everything you

I agree with everything you said. However, the ratio of female to male paedophiles that would coerce information out of a little girl on an airplane has to make for an enormous gap.

There are a few female paedophiles, but those who are thus persuaded are usually accompanied by a male. There are very few lone female paedophiles that I've ever heard of and I am in a related field of work..

E A Salierno

djay's picture

There are more female

There are more female pedophiles than you think. Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist. And get this, not all of them need men to do despicable things! Stop making excuses for female pedophiles.

EA Salierno's picture

Well, just because you've

Well, just because you've never seen any leprechauns doesn't mean they don't exist either. But you could use common sense and check out the facts related.

Stop being a misogyinist pig and trying to cover for paedophilic men everywhere.

E A Salierno

Raptorcat's picture

I know that I check the facts

I know that I check the facts and, according to the FBI statistics, your position is factually flawed.

Women pedophiles have no need to be accompanied by men and most of those women that are pedophiles do so on their own, without men involved. Only in the cases of serial pedophiles are women accompanied by men and then they usually work as a team, sometimes with the male as the "alpha" personality and sometimes with the female as the "alpha" personality.

Try getting your facts from legitimate sources rather than ultra-feminist sources.

The insanity principle is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. The far right, the far left, vegans, creationists and other extremists believe in the insanity principle, religiously.

Wagahai's picture

It is just as wrong to hate

It is just as wrong to hate men for their gender as women. No one is trying to cover for men pedophile. The point is that female pedophiles do exist, and that we should stop pretending that they don't.

A good place to start research would be Pamela Rogers. This myth that there are no women pedophiles has to end.

Mtguy12's picture

Why are you bothering to

Why are you bothering to argue with them? They strike me as one of those people who could just as easily say there are no female serial killers, there are no women who make false rape claims, there are no female child abusers, there are no female domestic abusers, there are no females who spit on the sidewalk.... as there are no (or very very few, and those that are kid fiddlers are doing it because a man made them!)female pedophiles. Arguing with a misandrist is a waste of time when they can just turn on Lifetime or go take a look on Jezebel to "justify" their beliefs.

Wagahai's picture

There is always an

There is always an opportunity to learn, such as the unknown words. Misandrist. Thanks.

MaleMatters's picture

While society is pressured to

While society is pressured to grant women full and equal integration into the world of work, it doggedly denies men full and equal integration into the world of children.

If Daniel McCluskie had been a black man, the plane would have gone down in flames.

See "A Male Matter’s Explanation of The World of Children/The World of Work" http://malemattersusa.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/a-male-matter-explanation-of-the-world-of-childrenthe-world-of-work/

Raptorcat's picture

MaleMatters, you have just

MaleMatters, you have just pointed out a real truth.

As a man, I fully support equal rights and protections of women, but most of these women who want equal rights do not want, nor will accept equal RESPONSIBILITY.

When the fact show that child and spousal abuse by women comprise 51% of cases nationwide, to assume that men are the more likely predator is both disingenuous and completely ignores the facts.

With equal rights comes equal responsibility. All of you mysandrists out there need to learn that, because you are no better than the mysogynists.

And those that refuse to accept that fact don't deserve equal rights.

The insanity principle is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. The far right, the far left, vegans, creationists and other extremists believe in the insanity principle, religiously.

EA Salierno's picture

Just a bet (because who can

Just a bet (because who can really say?)- but I think a child's safety would win over any man regardless of colour. However, I do think it would have raised more of a fuss than just this.

E A Salierno

djay's picture

A child's safety should win

A child's safety should win over any woman. Quit treating woman like perfect little angels.

sporg0's picture

Just more ridiculous paranoia

Just more ridiculous paranoia about all men being bad. A ten year old has no business traveling alone.

EA Salierno's picture

It only takes one man. One

It only takes one man. One paedophile. And one in four children are molested at some point in their youth. I would want my child watched well. And children do have a right to fly.

E A Salierno

Raptorcat's picture

So you must have just adored

So you must have just adored Sally Jesse Raphael. She was the queen of the man-bashers and her mysandrist followers.

From everything that you have said here, you are one of those.

Your arguments automatically target men and they completely wipe away any possibility that women can be pedophiles/abusers without men: a patent lie, proven through law enforcement statistics.

Here's an idea; dump your misandry. It serves no one. Start doing your homework and start to recognize that women are, factually, as likely to be the perpetrator as men are. Particularly in light of the growing numbers of women pedophiles and child abusers that are showing up in police statstics.

Just because something is either under-reported in the news or not reported at all, does not mean that it happens any less.

And as has already been said, while it only takes ONE man to be a pedophile, conversely, it also only takes ONE WOMAN to be one as well.

If you want equality, then some gender honesty is called for and you are not showing any and are therefore not deserving of any. And you will not deserve any until such time as you are willing AND ABLE to own that responsibility for your own gender just as you expect us men to do the same regarding our own gender.

Your misandry debilitates you, intellectually.

The insanity principle is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. The far right, the far left, vegans, creationists and other extremists believe in the insanity principle, religiously.

djay's picture

It also only takes one WOMAN

It also only takes one WOMAN to be a pedophile and harm children, too.

One in four children may be molested, but not all by men. But I'm sure the victims of molestation by a woman will feel SO much better when you tell them most molestors are men.

Mtguy12's picture

I have a feeling that when

I have a feeling that when female molesters start getting real attention that the "one in four children molested" figure will change drastically since it comes from and is used most forcefully the same sorts (NOW, AAUW etc) who insist one in four (I've heard some now insisting one in three...) women are raped.

cityboy's picture

Why not move the minor?

Why not move the minor? McCluskie did nothing wrong, so why should he have to give up his seat? I find that they assumed he could be a pedophile or even disturbing to the minor to be an extremely offensive action on the airlines' part. Everyone watching is thinking there's something wrong with the man that was moved, as "they must have had a reason to have to move him" would be the logical thought to be going through the other passengers' minds.

James Smith's picture

The man should sue. They

The man should sue. They might as well have hung a "Pedophile" sign on him. I understand their need to be cautious, but there is also a matter of sensitivity to all passengers. AS mentioned, why didn't they move the minor? That could have been done discretely and politely.

Then, they didn't even apologize to the male passenger, much less thank him. They should have upgraded him to first class.

Animals Don't Have Rights's picture

Totally agree.

Totally agree.

FSC's picture

Whilst I understand the

Whilst I understand the policy of Qantas, this should have been sorted out before boarding the plane.

Mtguy12's picture

Personally I don't understand

Personally I don't understand the policy of Qantas just like I didn't understand the same policy when British Airlines had it. This notion that it's alright to make all men out to be potential villains is bad enough, doing so when it involves children is even more counter intuitive. Men molest children more, also cause more child abuse despite women spending much more time around children...statistics don't bear out the latter and I have little doubt that sooner or later when properly reported they won't bear out the former either. An easier solution would be just keep an eye on children flying alone.

James Smith's picture

Excellent point.

Excellent point.

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