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Video: Anti-Mormon Pastor Robert Jeffress Now Supports Mitt Romney
Dallas, Texas pastor Dr. Robert Jeffress, who has repeatedly called Mitt Romney’s religion a cult, endorsed Mitt Romney (video below) on Sunday, because President Barack Obama “opposes biblical principles” such as contraception coverage for women.
In 2007, Pastor Jeffress told his congregation: “Mitt Romney is a Mormon, and don’t let anybody tell you otherwise. Even though he talks about Jesus as his Lord and savior, he is not a Christian. Mormonism is not Christianity. Mormonism is a cult.”
But in an interview with Fox News on Sunday, Pastor Jeffress said: “I haven’t changed my tune. In fact, I never said Christians should not vote for Mitt Romney. When I talked about his theology, I was answering a question about theology. And I still maintain there are vast differences in theology between Mormons and Christians, but we do share many of the same values, like the sanctity of life and religious freedom.”
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Here we have a cult member
Here we have a cult member referring to someone else's cult as such, and not realizing they are the pot calling the kettle black.
It's unfortunate that people
It's unfortunate that people choose to speak out of what they "believe" and not the facts.... as is exemplified by both of the previous comments. It's also unfortunate that you each have chosen to NOT listen to what is said and measure it against the rights afforded EVERYONE in our society... and not just to you.
Not that you'll bother to read/listen/ or reason, but I'll share with you regardless. 1) A cult (or "theological cult"), from the orthodox Christian perspective, is a group that utilizes the same language (or specific words) with different meanings associated with them. There are significant differences between orthodox Christianity and Mormonism that would allow for the accurate moniker of "cult" to be placed on Mormonism. (E.g. Silver indicated that the "Mormon faith does believe in Jesus." That belief, however, doesn't line up with orthodox Christianity's understanding of who Jesus is. Mormons believe that Jesus is a created being and is a spirit brother of Satan. Orthodox Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, eternally born of the Father. He became a man, and thus He is at once fully God and fully man.) You should be able to see the differences, regardless of whether you agree or believe in either one of them.
2) James' assertions that accepting a cult as someone's right is somehow akin to validating their beliefs with a willingness "to allow his (sic) particular cult's stupidity to be enacted into laws for everyone" is particularly flawed logic. Possibly you might do that, but don't assert that others fall victim to those same biases.
I'll quote James' signature "If freedom means anything, it is the liberty to tell others what they do not want to hear." You have the freedom to choose what you want to "hope" is right. And you have the "right" to rail against those, James, that choose a path other than the one you choose, but were you intellectually honest you would allow them their rights as well. It seems to me that you are the ones who have the problem with others expressing their beliefs. Jeffress has only defined Mormonism according to his belief structure. If you're going to complain that "he doesn't want equal treatment, he want (sic) preferred treatment and for it to be institutionalized;" then point out the specifics and don't just make broad, baseless aspersions. By the way… the First Amendment to the constitution of the United states guarantees that anyone may exercise their freedom to participate (or not participate) in religious activities. It does NOT, however, offer the freedom FROM religion. Jefferson, in his letter that includes the phrase “a wall of separation of church and state,” if read in context reiterates that the state will have no right to be involved in the affairs of the Danbury Baptist association. Feel free to read it in its full context at http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html.
P.S. - Silver... you have the choice as to whether others beliefs influence you and your family. Good, bad, or indifferent, that is your choice, but if you're going to attribute what people have said to them, kindly do so both correctly and exactly. Jeffress hasn't been involved in the birth control debate. You're just obfuscating to cause people to look at an emotionally based argument that is irrelevant to the one being discussed.
UnJdM
FYI, you either didn't
FYI, you either didn't actually read my post or were unable to understand it. To clarify my position, I don't care what a person "believes". Only when they want to enact those beliefs into laws for everyone is there a problem. My definition of "beliefs" and "faith" is the same. It's accpeting something as true when there is no supporting evidence and even much evidence against it.
That pretty much describes your post, many beliefs, no proof.
Yes I read your posts... For
Yes I read your posts... For your reference you said "So a "cult" is OK. But someone that refuses to allow his particular cult's stupidity to be enacted into laws for everyone is not?
"This is a typical, but disgusting, example of religion. The world will never be free while this type of maniac is still free to try to force his nonsense into law."
And I'll reiterate... you're entitled to your beliefs, but your assertions are not based in fact. Continuing to rant only asserts your "opinion" that everyone is wrong unless they agree with you. You point to "no proof" yet you provide no proof... only what this reader sees as "rage."
I am curious... did you actually view the video interview at the beginning of this post before you began typing?
UnJdM
Unjdm, you have been somewhat
Unjdm, you have been somewhat misinformed on Mormon beliefs--it is so hard to really explain another person's religion because of the nuances. Here is what Mormons believe about Jesus and Satan: As a Christian, I presume you believe God created everything in the Heaven and Earth, as the Bible states. I presume you also believe we are all God's children and therefore brothers and sisters. If God created all things, He created Satan, although of course, He created Him as Lucifer, who was not meant to be evil. Evil was Lucifer's own choice. However, if being created by God means that we are all siblings, then Jesus and Lucifer are siblings, in the same way you and Hitler are siblings. The fact that you and Hitler are both of the same spiritual family does not in any way make you less than you are. It's simply a fact and not one that has a great deal of impact on you. Mormons give zero thought to this subject. It's one of those game show trivia issues certain non-Mormons are so fond of focusing on while neglecting the core of the religion.
I'm sure you know the word trinity is not in the Bible and neither is the definition. Even non-Mormon scholars admit Paul doesn't seem to have any concept of a trinity. It's simply not taught there. People who claim only the Bible as authority simply can't go outside the Bible for doctrine. Trinity comes from the second to fourth centuries and was voted in to please the Greeks by men who did not claim to be prophets and therefore were not authorized to speak for God. (Amos 3:7)Although it's true the Bible says that "I and my Father are one," when taken in context of the entire Bible we learn that Jesus didn't mean they were the same being. In John 17, Jesus says, "21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." This would make our trinity a bit oversized. Obviously the oneness referred to is that of doctrine and love, not actual being. In addition, the Bible offers Stephen's vision, Jesus' baptism, Jesus' prayers to His Father, and His constant reminder that He doesn't do His own will, but only does what His Father asks of Him. Someone told me the Bible hints of trinity...it does far more than hint of the Mormon teachings. They are as clear as can be.
Unfortunately, Protestants have no way to claim God put them in charge of defining Christianity, since they believe God refuses to speak to us anymore. They have only the Bible to use, and it doesn't mention Protestants. Mormons believe each individual should be allowed to self-define as Christians, so we would never say you aren't. The dictionary definition makes every religion a cult--it was not intended to be an insult.
Actually, I haven't been
Actually, I haven't been misinformed about Mormonism and their beliefs. I chose to give a brief example of how LDS teachings differ from orthodox Christianity. Your explanations further my point... Mormonism was "created" in the early 1800's as an off-shoot of Christianity. Your need to parse the words goes to the long standing understanding that Mormonism is a cult (in the theological sense).
By your words you see a differentiation between Mormonism and Christianity. Their teachings are inconsistent with one another. Unfortunately, some people have used the term "cult" in such a way as to denigrate all groups who have teachings inconsistent with orthodox Christianity... Mormons/LDS aren't "bad" people, in fact their teachings to the masses have a message that is fairly consistent with Christian teachings... but you reference the "nuances" that most people don't know (E.g. - multiple worlds and multiple gods, the ability to become a god, pre-existent spirits, unfallible human prophets, Jesus visited the Americas, multiple heavens, to name a few). At least your approach is to agree... Christians and Mormons are distinct and different. Mormons are not just another denomination of Christianity.
UnJdM
I am quite agreed with your
I am quite agreed with your notions.This type of write up remarkable for the users where they can acquire an opportunity of knowledge sharing. CompTIA IT for Sales Certification CompTIA PDI+ Certification Strata IT Fundamentals Certification CompTIA Green IT Certification CompTIA Linux+ Powered by LPI Certification
I think we agree that
I think we agree that Mormonism is not current Christianity. But Mormonism is Original Christianity. Many of the Mormon beliefs that are criticized as non-Christian are precisely what the original Christians believed. Many Christians today no longer believe some of the early orthodox Christian doctrines because of ingrained and incorrect traditions developed over a period of many centuries. The further back in time you go the more Christianity looks like Mormonism. Most of the early Christian documents that show this were not available in Joseph Smith's day and yet he gets one thing right after the other. Mormonism is truly original Christianity restored to the earth by revelation to new prophets.
As far as the Mormon doctrine
As far as the Mormon doctrine of pre-existence, it is in the Bible... Looking at Jeremiah 1:4-5: “Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou came forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”
In Proverbs 8:22-30 it also implies that man was with God in the beginning. King Solomon is speaking: “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the Earth was………..When there were no depths, I was brought forth: when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, or the fields, or the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth…Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him.” The Bible teaches that Solomon existed before “ever the Earth was.” This is a Biblical doctrine. In Titus 1:2 it says, “In hope of Eternal Life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.” Who did God make this promise to if mankind didn’t exist before the world began? In Ephesians 1:4-5 the Apostle Paul hints at a pre-existence when he says, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”
Mormons don't teach that
Mormons don't teach that prophets are infallible. You might try researching this. If you think Mormons teach this then cite sources - cite specific references. God is infallible and when he speaks to prophets and the prophet relays God's words to the people then it is correct. But when a prophet speaks his own opinion then he is speaking as a man.
Jesus taught the
Jesus taught the following:
“Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
“Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
“The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
“Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God:” (John 10:31-36)
Here, the Jews wanted to stone Jesus ” for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” Jesus then reminded them of their own scripture which teaches that “, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High” from Psalms 82:6.
After this the Jews had to back down. They could not stone him because they knew he was right. They knew that their own scriptures teach the same thing and they had no case against Him. Jesus reminded them that God had “called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken”.
The Apostle Paul makes a similar point as recorded in the New Testament. Like Isaiah, he writes of false man-made gods in 1 Corinthians chapter 8. In addition to the false man-made gods on earth, he also writes of the existence of true gods in the heavens He says:
“For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many and lords many,) But to us there is but one God.. .” (1 Cor. 8: 5-6)
Here Paul recognizes that there are both false gods on earth and true gods in the heavens, but out of them all, there is only one God for us. Some may doubt that Paul was referring to true gods when he said “in heaven” and “(as there be gods many and lords many,). Yet, among true Bible believers, who can believe that there are false gods in heaven? So, when Paul talks of gods in heaven, he can only be talking of true Gods. Here, the Apostle Paul speaking polytheistically about the gods in heaven but monotheistically when he says that only one of them is our God.
Psalms 8:4-5 teaches that man is “a little lower than the gods.” The King James Version (and most translations) give it as “lower than the angels,” but the word used in the Hebrew is gods. The Hebrew term “elohim”,or “gods” is used to describe human judges in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9. Here authorized servants of God are called “gods.” Exodus 7:1 says that Moses was to be “god to Pharaoh.” Note that these are with a small “g” recognizing the pre-eminence of the God we worship.
And Paul says in Romans 8:14-18: “For as many as are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God; And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;”
And again Christ said to John the Revelator: “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelations 3:21)
John says: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doeth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." (1 John 3:2-3)
In the first verses of the Bible, in the Hebrew, Moses refers to the head God who called forth the other gods. It is not rendered this way in English translations. Yet, scholars have noted that throughout the Bible there is a theme of a head God who presides over the other gods. Thus, the head God says "Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness" ( Genesis 1:26-27, emphasis added)
And “let US go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." (Genesis 11:5-7, emphasis added).
SOWD is the Old Testament Hebrew word for "assembly", "circle of people in council", or "confidential talk, secret." It is similar in meaning to the New Testament "musterion" or mystery. For example, in the King James version, SOWD is translated "secret" (e.g. Amos 3:7, where it literally means "what is going on in the heavenly council")
Thus, Amos was referring to the idea that God makes known to his prophets the “secret,” or what goes on in the heavenly council. This is repeated throughout the Bible, for instance: “God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.” (Psalms 82:1)
As one scholar notes :
"The existence of other gods is not denied in the first commandment of the decalog itself; in fact it presupposes their existence and forbids the Israelites to worship them." (Roland de Vaux, The Early History of Israel, Philadelphia, 1968, p 463)
“Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?” (Ex. 15:11)
“For the Lord your God is God of gods, and the Lord of lords, a great God… “Thou shalt fear the Lord they God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name. “He is thy praise, and he is thy God…” (Deu. 11:17, 20-21)
“God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.” (Ps. 82:1) Or as it is rendered in the NRSV translation “God has taken His place in the divine council, in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.”
“Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.” (Ps. 86:8)
“For thou, Lord, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.” (Ps. 97:9)
“For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.” (Ps. 135:5)
“O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth forever. O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth forever.” (Ps. 136: 2-3)
“For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God.” (Deut. 10:17)
Note that the early Christian fathers, the early Bishops and respected orthodox theologians, were good Mormons. Note what they taught:
“God became man that man might become God.” (St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinis in: Philip Barlow, doctoral candidate in American Religious History at Harvard: Unorthodox Orthodoxy: The Idea of Deification in Christian History, Sunstone, Vol 8, no 5, pp 13-16))
“He became what we are, in order that we might be what he is.” (Maximus in Ibid) “I may become God to the same extent as he became man.” (Gregory of Nazianus in Ibid) “The Holy Spirit aids man in being made God.” (Basil of Ceasarea in Ibid)
“Flee with all in your power from being man and make haste to become gods.” (Origin in Ibid) Speaking of the soul which seeks to become pure Clement of Alexandria said: “The soul, receiving the Lord’s power, studies to become a god.” (Clement in Ibid)
IRENAEUS It has been claimed by some that this doctrine of becoming gods is an altogether pagan doctrine that blasphemes the majesty of God. Not all Christians have thought so, however. Irenaeus [A.D. 130-200], Bishop of Lyons, was instructed by Polycarp. Polycarp was personally instructed by the apostle John. Irenaeus became a prominent bishop in the Church in the second century. He became the most important Christian theologian of his time, and is considered orthodox by mainstream Christianity. Yet he taught:
“If the Word became a man, It was so men may become gods.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, bk. 5, pref.) Irenaeus also taught: “We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods.” (Ibid, also in (Bettenson, H., The Early Christian Fathers, [London: Oxford University Press, 1956,] p. 94.)
Also: “Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is.” (Irenaeus in Henry Betteson, The Early Christian Fathers, London: Oxford University Press, 1956, p 106)
And: “While man gradually advances and mounts towards perfection; that is, he approaches the eternal. The eternal is perfect; and this is God. Man has first to come into being, then to progress, and by progressing come to manhood, and having reached manhood to increase, and thus increasing to persevere, and persevering to be glorified, and thus see his Lord.” (Irenaeus in Henry Betteson, The Early Christian Fathers, London: Oxford University Press, 1956, p. 94)
And :”How then will any be a god, if he has not first been made a man? How immortal, if he has not in his mortal nature obeyed his maker? For one’s duty is first to observe the discipline of man and thereafter to share in the glory of God.” (Ibid, pp. 95-96)
Indeed, Saint Irenaeus had more to say on the subject of deification:
“Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, ‘I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High.’ For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that, what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies,4.38. Cp. 4.11)
“But man receives progression and increase towards God. For God is always the same, so also man, when found in God, shall always progress toward God.” (Ibid)
CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA In the second century, Saint Clement of Alexandria wrote, “Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.” (Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks, 1; Also in Clement of Alexandria, Protrepticus 1, (8,4), in Bettenson, The Early Christian Fathers, p. 244.) Clement also said that “If one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God.. His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, ‘Men are gods, and gods are men.’” (Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 3.1 See also Clement, Stromateis, 23.)
And also: “‘To him who has shall be added;’ knowledge to faith, love to knowledge, and love to inheritance. And this happens when a man depends on the Lord through faith, through knowledge, and love, and ascends with him to the place where God is, the God and guardian of our faith and love, from whom knowledge is delivered to those who are fit for this privilege and who are selected because of their desire for fuller preparation and training; who are prepared to listen to what is told them, to discipline their lives, to make progress by careful observance of the law of righteousness. This knowledge leads them to the end, the endless final end; teaching of the life that is to be ours, a life of conformity to God, with gods, when we have been freed from all punishment, which we undergo as a result of our wrong-doings for our saving discipline. After thus being set free; those who had been perfected are given their reward and their honors. They have done with their purification, they have done with the rest of their service, though it be a holy service, with the holy; now they become pure in heart, and because of their close intimacy with the Lord there awaits them a restoration to eternal contemplation; and they have received the title of ‘gods,’ since they are destined to be enthroned with other ‘gods’ who are ranked next below the Savior.” (Ibid pp. 243-244)
JUSTIN MARTYR Still in the second century, Saint Justin Martyr insisted that in the beginning men were “made like God, free from suffering and death,” and that they are “thus deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 124)
ST. CYRIL OF JERUSLEM Here is an interesting quote from St. Cyril of Jerusalem, an early Christian bishop. This fascinating quote is from his Prologue to the Catechetical Lectures: “When thou shalt have heard what is written concerning the mysteries, then wilt thou understand things which thou knewest not. And think not that thou receivest a small thing: though a miserable man, thou receivest one of God’s titles. Hear St. Paul saying, God is faithful. Hear another Scripture saying, God is faithful and just. Foreseeing this, the Psalmist, because men are to receive a title of God, spoke thus in the person of God: I said, Ye are Gods, and are all sons of the Most High. But beware lest thou have the title of ‘faithful,’ but the will of the faithless. Thou hast entered into a contest, toil on through the race: another such opportunity thou canst not have. Were it thy wedding-day before thee, wouldest thou not have disregarded all else, and set about the preparation for the feast? And on the eve of consecrating thy soul to the heavenly Bridegroom, wilt thou not cease from carnal things, that thou mayest win spiritual?”
JEROME (the Pope’s secretary) St. Jerome explains Psalms 82:6 as did other early Christian fathers: “‘I said: You are gods, all of you sons of the Most High.’ Let Eunomius hear this, let Arius, who say that the Son of God is son in the same way we are. That we are gods is not so by nature, but by grace. ‘But to as many as receive him he gave power of becoming sons of god.’ I made man for that purpose, that from men they may become gods. ‘I said: Ye are gods, all of you sons of the Most High.’ Imagine the grandeur of our dignity; we are called gods and sons! I have made you gods just as I made Moses a god to pharaoh, so that after you are gods, you may be made worthy to be sons of God. Reflect upon the divine words: ‘with God there is no respector of persons.’ God did not say: ‘I said you are gods,’ you kings and princes; but ‘all’ to whom I have given equally a body, soul, a spirit, I have given equally divinity and adoption. We are ‘all’ born equals. Our humanity is one of equality.” (Jerome, The Homilies of Saint Jerome, Washington D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 1964 pp 106-107)
Jerome goes on to explain that man has fallen from being heirs of godship; but that he can rise and gain back this heirship. He says:
“‘Yet like men you shall die.’ You see, therefore that man will die. God does not die. Adam, too, as long as he obeyed the precept and was a god, did not die. After he tasted of the forbidden tree, however, he died immediately. In fact, God says to him: ‘The day you eat of it, you must die.’ The Hebrew has a better way of expressing this: ‘But you like Adam shall die.’ Just as Adam was cast out of the Garden of Eden, so, likewise, were we. ‘And shall fall like one of the princes.’ Since the Lord had said: ‘all of you sons of the Most High,’ it is not possible to be the son of the Most High, unless He Himself is the Most High. I said that all of you would be exalted as I am exalted. But, you ’shall fall like one of the princes.’ It is precisely because we had been so elevated that we are said to have fallen.” (Ibid)
Jerome later indicates that after having become “mere men”, those men can still become gods. He quotes the scriptures and explains: “‘Give thanks to the God of Gods.’ The prophet is referring to those gods of whom it is written: I said: ‘You are gods;’ and again: ‘God arises in the divine assembly.’ They who cease to be mere men, abandon the ways of vice and are become perfect, are gods and the sons of the Most High.” (Ibid p. 353)
TERTULLIAN “If, indeed, you follow those who did not at the time endure the Lord when showing Himself to be the Son of God, because they would not believe Him to be the Lord, then call to mind along with them the passage where it is written, ‘I have said, Ye are gods, and ye are children of the Most High;’ and again, ‘God standeth in the congregation of the gods:’ in order that, if the scripture has not been afraid to designate as gods human beings, who have become sons of God by faith , you may be sure that the same scripture has with greater propriety conferred the name of the Lord on the true and one-only Son of God.” (Tertullian, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids Michigan: Wm.B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1885, vol. 3, p. 608)
ORIGEN Like other early Church Fathers, Origen, [A.D. 185-254], also teaches the same Biblical doctrine, of Genesis 1:1, that there is a head god who is “Lord of gods”, Origin teaches that there is a distinction to be made between “the God” and others who are also “gods.”
“Everything which, without being ‘God-in-himself’ is deified by participation in his godhead, should strictly be called ‘God,’ not ‘the God.’ The ‘firstborn of all creation,.’ Since he by being ‘with God’ first gathered godhood to himself, is therefore in every way more honored than others besides himself, who are ‘gods’ of whom God is the God, as it is said, ‘God the Lord of gods spoke and called the world.’ For it was through his ministry that they became gods, since he drew divinity from God for them to be deified, and of his kindness generously shared it with them. God, then, is the true God, and those who through him are fashioned into gods are copies of the prototype.” (Ibid p. 324)
He went on to teach: “The Father, then, is proclaimed as the one true God; but besides the true God are many who become gods by participating in God.” (Ibid)
Origen claimed that God “will be ‘all’ in each individual in this way: when all which any rational understanding, cleansed from the dregs of every sort of vice, and with every cloud of wickedness completely swept away, can either feel, or understand, or think, will be wholly God….” (Origen, De Principiis 3:6:3, in Roberts and Donaldson, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 4, p. 345.)
AUGUSTINE Finally, Saint Augustine himself, the greatest of the Christian Fathers, said: “But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. ‘For he has given them power to become the sons of God’ [John 1:12] If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.” (Augustine, On the Psalms, 50.2 Augustine insists that such individuals are gods by grace rather than by nature, but they are gods nevertheless.)
ST. MAXIMUS “We find it in early Orthodox tradition as well, for the ‘chief idea of St. Maximus [who died in 662 A.D.] as of all of Eastern theology, [was] the idea of deification” (S.L. Epifanovic as quoted by Jaroslav Pelikan, The Spirit of Eastern Christendom (600-1700). The Christian Tradition, vol. 2, University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1974, p. 10, as cited by Peterson and Ricks, p. 79).
As Paul taught in 1 Corinthians chapter 8, there is a duality to Christianity. Paul taught that there are many gods but only one that we worship, only one that is our God. Mormons hold to the doctrine of Paul and Jesus and not necessarily the doctrine of the “various Christian churches” because they no longer teach what Jesus and Paul taught. We do.
To paraphrase Origin’s thoughts in the words of Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) Apostle, Bruce R. McConkie: "There is and can only be one who is supreme, who is the head and to whom all others are subject". Becoming like God is not saying we will ever be equal to Him, frankly we won't and can't He, and only He, will forever be worshipped by us.”
Joseph Smith once said “Mormons are the only ones who believe in the Bible. Everyone else believes in their interpretation of the Bible.” That probably sounds like a bold and even arrogant statement and I can understand how it would be offensive to some people. It is not our intention to offend people. However, if you look at real facts, real history, what the Bible and the early Christians really say (only some of which I have pointed out above) it turns out that Joseph is right. People regularly can’t see what the Bible really says because it is filtered through the lens of later orthodoxy and the extra-Biblical creeds. The divergence of Mormon theology from the theology of other Christians lies in the fact that Christianity has been modified and changed over the centuries and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is original Christianity restored to the earth. So, of course, there are differences. But I think Christians down through the ages have done the best they can without current revelation and have done remarkably well in many cases. It is, in a way, strange, that they criticize us for believing original Christianity. Seems to me that they would want to do the same instead of preferring the later creeds and counsels over the earlier version of Christianity.
If Athanasius, Augustine, Saint Irenaeus, Saint Cyril, Saint Maximus the Confessor, Saint Clement of Alexandria Jerome, Terfullian, even Augustin, and others, including C.S. Lewis in modern days, can teach the doctrine of deification, not to mention that Jesus Himself taught it as well as Paul and John and yet they are still accepted as orthodox Christians, why are Latter-day Saints said to be non-Christian for the same belief? The further back in time you go, especially when you get back before the creeds, the more Mormon-like the Christian doctrines become. Some of our doctrines are clearly at odds with mainstream churches of today, but that’s not because Joseph Smith was making up ludicrous doctrine. Long lost but true doctrines were restored through him as a divinely authorized prophet.
And if popular Christian Orthodoxy continues to hold to the current tradition of later ideas and creeds, then what are they to do with the teachings of the Early Christians, the apostles, and even Jesus Himself who did not teach the creeds? If Mormons are wrong and not Christian than so were the early Christians who taught the same things that Mormons are teaching. If Mormons are not Christian for these beliefs then this makes the Apostles and even Jesus Himself not Christian. Which Christians are right; the later Christians or the Early Christians? Who is right, Jesus, Paul, John, the Psalmist, and the early Christian fathers, or Christians who believe traditions developed centuries after Christ and the Apostles?
The Bible makes clear that
The Bible makes clear that all mankind will be "judged. . . according to their works." (Revelation 20:12) Since people are judged according to their various works, their rewards must differ according to their works. Jesus taught that in His "Father's house are many mansions" (John 14:2).
Paul had a vision of "the third heaven." (2 Corinthians 12:2). Therefore, Paul teaches us that there are three heavens or, as Mormons put it; three degrees of glory. Paul illustrates the three glories people will receive in the resurrection “There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.” (1 Corinthians 15:40-42)
Origen’s teaching, in the early third century, shows that the early Church interpreted this passage in the same way: He says: “Our understanding of the passage indeed is, that the Apostle, wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise again in glory, i.e., of the saints, borrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, another the glory of the stars.” (Origen, De Principiis 2:10:2, in ANF 4:294.)
He further explained that the highest of the three degrees is associated with the Father, and the second degree with the Son:
“And some men are connected with the Father, being part of Him, and next to these, those whom our argument now brings into clearer light, those who have come to the Saviour and take their stand entirely in Him. And third are those of whom we spoke before, who reckon the sun and the moon and the stars to be gods, and take their stand by them. And in the fourth and last place those who submit to soulless and dead idols. “ (Origen, Commentary on John 2:3, in ANF 10:324-325.)
John Chrysostom was another witness to the fact that the early Church considered this passage to be a reference to degrees of reward in the afterlife:
“And having said this, he ascends again to the heaven, saying, ‘There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon.’ For as in the earthly bodies there is a difference, so also in the heavenly; and that difference no ordinary one, but reaching even to the uttermost: there being not only a difference between sun and moon, and stars, but also between stars and stars. For what though they be all in the heaven? yet some have a larger, others a less share of glory. What do we learn from hence? That although they be all in God's kingdom, all shall not enjoy the same reward; and though all sinners be in hell, all shall not endure the same punishment.” (John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians 41:4, in NPNF Series 1, 12:2)
Even before Origen and Chrysostom, however. Irenaeus taught the same doctrine which had supposedly come from the elders who knew the Apostles. Many think he received it from Papias:
“And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, "In My Father's house are many mansions." For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the Apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the Apostle, "For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:36:1-2, in ANF 1:567, brackets in original.)
Clement of Alexandria also expressed belief in the three degrees, and echoed the Lord's revelation to Joseph Smith. (DC 76:58)
“Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed . . . . These chosen abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel--the thirty, the sixty, the hundred. And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to "a perfect man," according to the image of the Lord . . . . To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught.” (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6:14, in ANF 2:506)
Clement also preached that the three gradations of glory are procured by virtue of three types of actions:
Clement of Alexandria] reckons three kinds of actions, the first of which is . . . right or perfect action, which is characteristic of the perfect man and Gnostic alone, and raises him to the height of glory. The second is the class of . . . medium, or intermediate actions, which are done by less perfect believers, and procure a lower grade of glory. In the third place he reckons sinful actions, which are done by those who fall away from salvation. (ANF 2:506.)
The older Jewish apocalyptic tradition and many other early Christian groups held to the three heavens scheme. (Daniélou, The Theology of Jewish Christianity, 174.)
Some of the most criticized
Some of the most criticized doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are the ones most easily demonstrated to be early Christian doctrines. Many Christians today no longer believe some of the early orthodox Christian doctrines because of ingrained and incorrect traditions developed over a period of many centuries. The further back in time you go the more Christianity looks like Mormonism. Most of the early Christian documents that show this were not available in Joseph Smiths’s day and yet he gets one thing right after the other. Mormonism is truly original Christianity restored to the earth by revelation to new prophets.
Excuse me, Terrie, but Jesus
Excuse me, Terrie, but Jesus was NOT created at all. Isaiah 9:6, referring to the Messiah, states: "His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Jesus said, "I and the Father ARE ONE." When God spoke with Moses on Mt. Sinai, Moses asked, "Who shall I say sent me?" God replied "I AM." When Jesus was questioned by the Scribes and Pharisees, he said (John 8:58), "Before Abraham was, I AM." If these verses don't indicate clearly that Jesus IS God, something's wrong. John 1:1 says, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God. John 1:10 clarifies who the"Word" is: "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." Jesus IS the One who created us...AND Lucifer. Col. 1:16:"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible..." Jesus was not the SON of God until He took on human form, and that's the steps He took to sacrifice Himself for us. He was the Creator of all things, but He took on human form to fulfill God's law on our behalf. Why do you think He knew the Scriptures so well? He amazed everybody! It was He Who the Scriptures refer to! God was The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit. "The Word *became* flesh [in the form of the Son of God, born of God and woman] and dwelt among us." (John 1:14. I added the bracketed words.) While we're talking theology, we can also see Mary is NOT the "mother of God." She is Jesus' mother, God the Father is His "daddy." So much for worshipping Mary as the Catholics do. As for the Trinity, see 1 John 5:7: "For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one."
I sincerely respect the Mormons' faith and zeal. They are, I believe, some of the most honest people around. Misled, to be sure, but honest. They believe in Jesus in the person they were taught He is. I'm glad God is the judge and not us puny humans with a limited view of the universe. I hope our Mormon friends WILL be in the Kingdom with God Himself. They think Jesus came from some "spirit world" and was elevated to "Godhood," and that we are also to be so elevated but, then, we ALL have quirks in our theology or there wouldn't be so many true denominations. Acts 17:30 says that "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent..." I hope our Lord Jesus "winks" at the ignorance of the Mormons who think he isn't "I AM"....That is, THE FOREVERLASTING.
Terrie: "Unfortunately, Protestants have no way to claim God put them in charge of defining Christianity, since they believe God refuses to speak to us anymore." Who is "they"?? Bible-believing Christians certainly DO believe God speaks to us. He speaks to us through other people, through the miraculous timing of events, and millions of direct answers to our prayers. Miracles abound, and if you're not a part of them, I feel sorry for you.
"They have only the Bible to use, and it doesn't mention Protestants. " Nowhere did he mention Catholics, either. Protestants are Christians who stood up and STILL stand up against the power and bullying of Catholicism. If you don't believe that, get a dictionary... and study history a bit more. GOD HIMSELF defined Christianity when he became a man....period.
gtrpicker and Terrie have
gtrpicker and Terrie have provided an interesting discussion.
Terrie your thoughts on Jesus Christ being the God of the Old Testament (Jehovah) is solid doctrine in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Your point is true when you write
When God spoke with Moses on Mt. Sinai, Moses asked, "Who shall I say sent me?" God replied "I AM." When Jesus was questioned by the Scribes and Pharisees, he said (John 8:58), "Before Abraham was, I AM." If these verses don't indicate clearly that Jesus IS God, something's wrong. John 1:1 says, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God. John 1:10 clarifies who the"Word" is: "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."
Look closely at these words though and you will see why what you believe and what we believe begin to differ.
John 1:1"....in the beginning was the Word, and the Word WAS WITH God, and the Word was God. (Mormons believe this particular "beginning" is not the creation of the earth, but the existence prior to the earth's creation. An existence that gave purpose for an earth to be created in the first place. "....in the beginning was the Word" references Jesus Christ (Jehovah), and that Jehovah "the Word" was with God, (God the Father, Elohim) and the Word was also a God, the son of Elohim.
Now the creation story: In the beginning ( Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness....
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil:"
Romans 8:3 ...God sending his own Son in the likenss of sinful flesh, and for sin condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself bearth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified together.
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Romans 8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firsborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Luke 4:33 And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.
Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ. (How did the devils know this and why did Christ rebuke them suffering them not to speak?)
Romans 8:32 "He that spared not his own Son, be delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"
John 5:17-18 "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."
John 17:1-6 "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that they Son also my glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
John 17:24-25 "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me."
John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
John
John 17:26
Romans 8:34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
John 18:11 "Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"
John3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
OK, let's set this record
OK, let's set this record straight.
The "oneness" that Jesus is referring to is oneness in purpose. You can gather that by reading and understanding ALL the scriptures (and not cherry-picking) as shown in John 17:
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
*** 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. ***
*** did you notice verse 21? That the disciples in Christ may *be one* as thou, Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be *one* in *us*.
By your definition, if taken literally, we would then have to conclude that Jesus wanted the Twelve Apostles (whom he is praying for) to become part of this "one" God also. That would then have you believe not in a trinity, but in a "fifteenity".
Oh and by the way, in case you're already thinking it, the words translated as "one" in the Bible, from this verse and the one you are referring above, both come from the same Greek word *hice* which means "one". Period. The rare Greek word homothomandon, meaning "unanimously", but sometimes rendered "one", was never used for any of these passages.
Might I also point out an awfully obvious problem as given in the example above - that it would be awfully odd for the Jesus part of God to be praying to the Father part of God, if indeed he was the same being, don't you think? This three-in-one dogma would require us to believe that God actually prays to Himself.
Might I also point out some other scriptural inconsistencies with your theory. If, you say, there is only one God and Jesus is "part" or a manifestation of this one God (of the same substance), then how could Stephen (Acts 7:55-56) actually see *two* beings? The passage says Stephen saw Jesus sitting on God's right hand.
Jesus also said He will "go unto his Father". How can God go to Himself?
After Christ's resurrection, He told Mary not to touch Him, "For I have not yet ascended to my Father" (John 20:17). How can He ascend to Himself if He is already there?
In Matthew 26:39-42 He says, "let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as *I will, but as thou wilt"* Why would God ask permission from Himself? Moreover, if Jesus was simply another co-equal "person" with the Father, why would He subject His divine will to the Father's? In light of these questions, accepting the Trinitarian view of God, to us, is the same as saying that Christ was not "fully God" when He walked the Earth.
Here's where it gets worse. If you look in John 14:28, you may think God is greater than Himself. It says that the Father is greater than Jesus. How does this square with the equality that the Athanasian Creed declares?
When Christ spoke of His coming in glory He said, "that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels of heaven, but my *Father only*" (Matt 24:36, Mark 13:32) Being the same God as the Father, Jesus *had* to know the timing of His second coming. We choose to believe Christ is *not* a liar. He is not the Father in essence, being, person, substance, or anything else.
Mormons are not alone in believing that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two distinct and separate beings. Many evangelical, anglican and protestant scholars have already proven that the notion of a trinity is nowhere to be found in the gospel.
What you need to do is study history and go back to 325AD when the Nicene Creed was formed. Understand who assembled this "group" of various religious priests and why and what came forth out of that.
Many believers in Christ from the years Christ died until the time when the Nicene Creed was created did NOT believe in trinitarianism. This is evidenced in very early historical books and many scholars have already proven it. What you believe is what you've been fed either through anti-mormon literature or other anti-religious literature. You did NOT come to that assessment yourself.
Take, for example, Sir Isaac Newton - a mastermind of his time and still in ours. He was a genius who was well respected for this great knowledge and philosophies. He was also a christian who has written *against* trinitarianism stating how it is not in accordance to the doctrine provided in the scriptures. Isaac Newton lived and died well before the Book of Mormon was given to Joseph Smith, so to say that Mormons are the only ones who believe this, is incorrect.
Sorry, pastor. The only
Sorry, pastor. The only difference between christianity and mormonism is one has more sycophants.
Everything I do, I do it for you.
So a "cult" is OK. But
So a "cult" is OK. But someone that refuses to allow his particular cult's stupidity to be enacted into laws for everyone is not?
This is a typical, but disgusting, example of religion. The world will never be free while this type of maniac is still free to try to force his nonsense into law.
Jeffress should loose his
Jeffress should loose his 501c due to the political policy of trying to influence a people in the Policical arena. He is a nut case anyway, the Morman faith does believe in Jesus.
Mr. Jeffrees, Stay out of my bedroom, it is none of your business about birth control in my home. Your beliefs do NOT influence me or mine. When you pay for all unwanted, abandon and abused children to have full support until they are out of college then you can have an opinion on this private subjece.
So true. He wants the
So true. He wants the government to stay out of his religion, but he will not keep his religion out of government. He doesn't want equal treatment, he want preferred treatment and for it to be institutionalized.