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Religion
Atheist Marines Challenge Camp Pendleton Cross
If atheists have their way, U.S. Marines can fight for freedom--they just can't exercise it. That fact was made painfully clear last week, when four Marines climbed a steep hill at Camp Pendleton on Veterans' Day, determined to build a tribute to their fallen brothers. They brought a cross, 13-feet tall, to replace one that was lost in a wildfire in 2003. "We wanted them all to know that they'll always be in our hearts, that they'll never be forgotten," said Staff Sargeant Justice Rettenberger. Unfortunately, what they'll most be remembered for is sparking another controversy over religious expression on government property. The Marines spent two hours physically carrying the cross to the peak, and that same day, the Los Angeles Times published an inspiring story about their climb and the heroes they dedicated it to.
That drew some unwanted attention from a group called the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers (MAAF), which demanded the cross come down. Its location,they argued, "makes us feel like the federal government privileges Christianity over non-Christians like us, makes us feel like second-class citizens." In the Marines' defense, Camp Pendleton said the men were "acting as individuals, not as representatives of the military." Even so, the base's officials did agree to review the matter internally. Unfortunately, this is the effect of an administration intent on driving faith out of the public square. The families who lost so much are forced to lose more: the honorable expression of their sacrifice. I commend these young Marines for commemorating those who've given their lives in the effort to obtain and preserve freedom for others. I've climbed those hills at Camp Pendleton and getting a cross to the top of them is no small challenge. Sadly, the greater challenge is to ensure radical secularists don't crucify on the cross of political correctness the freedoms won by the heroic efforts of the men and women who serve.
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People like you always get
People like you always get flustered when they're called out on doing something they just got finish telling others NOT to do. You're trying to school religious people when you don't even have your stuff together as you state they should. Moving on.....Again, not my point. You will influence your child to choose what YOU like. You cannot help it. You think you're being objective, but you're human. You aren't. You act as if you're better than people who are of the same religion teaching their children their religion. All children have a choice. They chose to either follow their parents (even you) or they choose not to. It's how every single child grows up. Choices. You don't give your child more choice than anyone else. God gave free will. And if you don't believe in God you have no control over free will any more than someone else or you don't give up more control of your child's free will than another parent. It's the same. The child will decide if you're stupid or your worth listening to. Just like anyone else you encounter. But you love love them more than anyone else you encounter, which means why would you teach them wrong if you believe there's no God? That's not a choice if there's only one right answer and the fact that you don't teach them that is why you're not a real atheist. You doubt your own beliefs as does she. How confusing for a child. Their parents can't even decide what they believe, how are they to learn how to be decisive? True facts to you, sir. I'm sure there are parents out there who are of the same mentality as you teaching their kids different ideas of how 1 + 1 = 4 or 6 or even 42. And of all people to get annoyed with that you'd be the last. Worldviews are life and death. Teach your child to play in the street...death. Teach your child to look both ways, pay attention to the things around them as they cross the street....life. You act as if your beliefs and your wife's beliefs are just bleh.. That's so weak. Either you believe or you don't. There's no halfhearted atheist and there certainly isn't a halfhearted Christian without faux before it.
The one point you missed
The one point you missed completely that you have alluded to here is that my kids are bound to disagree with either my wife as an atheist or me as a believer or both of us as an agnostic. Consequently, it is important for them to feel comfortable with both of us which is why we have removed any guilt, shame or embarrassment in picking one path over another when it comes to their worldview. Ramming my position down the throats of my kids who are believers will only alienate them. Consequently, I can choose either to be the zealous atheist out to convert everyone, or I can choose to be tolerant and respectful, preserving my relationship with my children who disagree with my positions. I choose to keep my relationships with my children. This is something that your black and white zealot understanding of the world can't integrate. Your simplistic understanding of human relationships is demonstrated in this forum almost every time you post. This topic is no different.
You didn't address what you'd
You didn't address what you'd do if your child was a religion that would shun you for being an atheist and not speak with you due to you being someone that they shouldn't spend time with. Meaning they would choose their religion over a relationship with you. Based on how you think you're raising your child (open minded --- which is questionable considering you're not) that's the path that is most likely. You're not giving them anything concrete to work with. You're giving them this idea that anything is right, when you supposedly know that there's no God. I don't buy you as an atheist or her as a Christian. It's totally and utterly illogical. It's like family that the mother is a Texas Longhorn alumni and the father is an Aggie and them saying they don't care what University their child picks. That's a load of lies that only a naive human would buy. This way of parenting works as well as raising your child gender neutral. Every single day you limit your child's choices, to tell me that you allow them to pick what they're going to think is unbelievable. I don't look for you to agree. Because why would you? Your ego wouldn't allow you to see yourself as wrong, anyway. And I say ego because you don't allow anyone on this site to think of you as stupid because you think you're the smartest person here. Reading your post shows you think you know more from science to religion to politics. You've never accepted another opinion. Personally I don't think that's a terrible thing to do, but you do. So you should dislike yourself. A lot. The world hasn't integrated, hence war, murder and people like you trying to control who gives views. I don't limit people's views.
JJ - you are simply engaging
JJ - you are simply engaging in more trolling. Move on. Whatever your silly little mind wants to make up, my wife and I have a very happy marriage and a large and happy family. If half of what you are trying to stick me with in your posts were even slightly true, I should be in utter personal agony. I am not regardless of what you might like to see. Your analogies for what it is like for a christian and atheist to be married are utter and complete crap. My wife and I have figured out how to keep religion from becoming an issue even if you could never do the same. Sorry.. we're happy and its working. Guess that makes your argument pretty much nothing but more meaningless generalizations and invective. Go project your personal insecurity and biases somewhere else. Maybe when you grow up you'll figure out how to play well with others. Until then, you'll just keep getting banned from forums over and over again.
And you haven't addressed
And you haven't addressed what you'd do if your children chose a religion that would shun you and limit your relationship. Ignoring it is an interesting way to protect your premade tolerance.
I would be saddened by that
I would be saddened by that choice just like I would if one my children chose his/her spouse poorly and this person took a disliking to our family. This could happen to any family. My grandfather was jewish and married a catholic. His family shunned him for seven years even though he never converted to catholicism. I had a college classmate who converted to mormonism, and his lutheran family could not attend his wedding to his LDS bride. This problem has nothing to do with atheism. It happens every day in families where a child converts to a different religion with similar restrictions. What's your point? Am I somehow more vulnerable to this problem because I am atheist? Nope... that's a dead end. Our door will always be open to our children.
I never said that. Gods your
I never said that. Gods your reading comprehension sucks. You still didn't answer, well you touched upon it by saying you'd be saddened. Which is only a feeling one would feel if their child didn't do as the parent wanted. Meaning choice isn't what one was providing.
I answered your question, and
I answered your question, and you didn't get it, so let me be plain - I would respect their choice and let them know my door would be open if they wished to re-establish their relationship with me. You seem to believe that parents cannot and should not offer choices to their children. I am somehow being "dishonest" because you can't really parent that way, to which I say to the man with no children - you haven't a clue, so move on. You are like the virgin catholic priest giving marriage advice... there's no context.
No. I never said to not
No. I never said to not allow choice. You really are terrible about seeing other views that are not your own. You don't know what I have man who said that to me as you judge me out of one side of your mouth as the other says not to judge you. I'm pretty sure you know what word you're defining with your actions. Dishonest, again cause you are either naive or ignorant or both, because you claim to be right for choosing atheism but don't show it through tour actions with tour marriage or parenting. If you really were atheist, you'd back evolution...no doubt. Marriage to a Christian is doubt. Raising kids with push toward insulting your beliefs, doubt. You'd be pained if they turned on your thoughts, so you have in mind a right path, do you not?
You are assuming that they
You are assuming that they (CRW's children) would ascribe to all the dogma and teachings of what ever religion they chose. From my experience most Christians don't do that. Let me give some background first. Lets take the Roman Catholic faith for example. I was raised RC and at one time contemplated becoming a Priest. In the RC you receive First Communion (at least I did) around 2nd Grade. You are then indoctrinated into the faith via Catechism until you are confirmed in approximately 6th grade. Lets assume that CRW did the same thing. The RC is based on the following: Papal writings on faith called Bulls, Tradition and finally Scripture. Although we read scripture from the Good News Bible we were not allowed to question it. If we did we were always referred to the Priest for answers. They are the authority. This always grated on me because most of my questions were never answered to my satisfaction. So at around 12 or 13 years of age you are a good little RC. I was an alter boy until I was 21. Most kids stop when the get into high school. So I was on the fast track to becoming a Priest, that's how it was done at that time. I ate many meals in the Rectory and went various events as the guest of the Monsignor. I even went to the Opera once. But I still had questions and when I started College at 18 I started hanging around a lot of Protestants. I went to Bible Studies, read more scripture than I ever had in my life and began to question the RC even more. By the time I was 21 I was having serious doubts about the RCC. Then I got smacked by the proverbial 2x4 by God. I met a young lady that was Lutheran and I fell in love. We had a rough time during our engagement and the Priests of the RC were some of the biggest contributors to the problems. According to one I was turning my back on the "True Faith" and would be a heretic (part of the reason for the name TCH) and that my family should have nothing to do with me. Needless to say I am still in contact with my family and they periodically try to bring me back into the fold. It never works. But the point is based on RCC dogma and tradition they should not have anything to do with me. They tend to ignore those teachings. CRW is in the same boat so to speak. He is an Atheist and yet his RC family still interacts with him. You are taking a very narrow view of the real world. My children (18 an 17) waffle between believers, agnostics and atheism. I have always told them that they don't have to believe. I tell them why I believe and they have been taught Christian beliefs. If they live in my house they go to church, period. Every house has rules. I don't live in CRW's house and neither do you. You never did answer my questions in another post about what you were taught and what denomination you actually are. That would give me a little more perspective. So what are you?
The Catholic Heretic
I believe in God. I don't
I believe in God. I don't harbor doubt enough to marry am atheist, nor do I have doubt to raise kids so open minded they can't stand for anything and pretend to stand for everything. The world is so open that it accepts anything and therefore bad happens.
@CHH It is frustrating trying
@CHH It is frustrating trying to have any sort of discussion with JJ. It sounds like on some things you have a similar level of openness. My RC family has never abandoned me. I told my parents I was an atheist when I was preparing for confirmation. In my opinion, confirmation was the chance that every young catholic had to affirm a true commitment to the church. I told my parents I could not be that hypocritical. They went through the stages of grief over a weekend, finally coming to acceptance. I agreed to attend church with the family and to avoid discussing religion with my brothers and sisters so that they would not be influenced by my position. I understood and agreed to attend church as long as they didn't mind me sitting out on communion. It worked in that my brothers and sisters each went their own way. I was married in a Catholic church with the full understanding of the priest where I stood. He allowed me to give religiously neutral vows of commitment and it worked. JJ seems unable to accept anything that does not match his limited perspective.
I said nothing about
I said nothing about abandonment. You still haven't answered about if your kids decide to shun you. Too much openess and you stand for nothing.
I think he is young and
I think he is young and inexperienced and too full of zeal. We all say things when we are young that we regret later in life. One more quote: 1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me."
The Catholic Heretic
"I think" is not fact,
"I think" is not fact, though, apparently, people treat it as such.
You act like an adolescent,
You act like an adolescent, so either you are young and inexperienced, or you are older and extremely immature. Either way you still haven't put away the things of childhood. You act like an inexperienced teenager lashing out at the world. I don't "think" this, rather, you have demonstrated this over and over again.
Perfect quote! :-)
Perfect quote! :-)
You tell me where I said you
You tell me where I said you have a bad marriage, are terrible parents and are unhappy. Oh wait, you can't. The ignorant are in bliss. When you are tested instead of having comfort, then you'll know if what you have is right. You've had it easy. What I said is you're dishonest. You're not an atheist.
@JJ you have said that there
@JJ you have said that there is no way that my wife and I could be true in our positions and still be happy. We are happy and true to our individual perspectives, so I am an atheist, and happy, and married to a christian. Believe me, don't believe me, it doesn't really matter. You have no idea what life we have led and how we've overcome our struggles other than the limited glimpse I have provided in this forum, so your leaps of logic are truly amazing. I have no intention of baring my life's story here, so guess there's not much more to talk about with respect to me. I don't believe in god, and I assert one does not exist based on the evidence. That is the core of atheism. However, my thoughts and behaviors are not uniquely defined by this fact. For most of the people I know, religion or atheism is only part of a person's life and not the definition. Maybe when you grow up a little more you'll understand.
I never said that, that's
I never said that, that's what you want me to say. And funny you claim I don't know you as you go around telling everyone you know me. If that's not the epitome of hypocrite, your next reply surely is. An atheist isn't strong in their belief system, I already knew that. A Christians is. There is no such thing as a half Christian. All or nothing. Again one of you is lying.
Your requirement that
Your requirement that everything is black and white and simple is your requirement, which does not apply to other people. Only computers have basis in 1's and 0's. You have defined what you believe it means to be a christian, and my wife does not share your definition. You have defined what it must mean to be an atheist, and I don't share your definition. I deny the existence of god based on the evidence. It doesn't meant I hate religion or religious people, which is why my marriage works. Wanting to limit influence and control is not the same as hating something. So... no one's lying. You just can't accept reality, as you have demonstrated here over and over and over again. When I make statements about you it is based on what you have posted. You leap to conclusions without any evidence other than your own beliefs, which is one of the chief characteristics of a zealot.
And yet you continue to tell
And yet you continue to tell me what I am while lying about yourself. No one can be sure you're even married or have kids except those they buy into your lies. I can fabricate about your life as you do other people's. There is only one definition of Christian and It's not yours and not your "wife's". It's the Bible's. Shows you don't even know what a real Christian is, that you wouldn't mention the Bible. 1 Peter 3:16 "But if [he suffers] as a Christian, let him not feel shame, but let him keep on glorifying God in this name." How is marrying an atheist glorifying God's name? Matthew 11:24 "Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me."" Continue to follow Jesus to be a Christian. How is marrying an atheist doing that? Jesus did eat with a prostitute and tax collectors, but that's because they chose to stop doing what they were doing previously to eat with him and they were not doing any of that while spending time with him, not even talking about it. If they started talking about sex and cheating people, Jesus wouldn't have ate with them. It wasn't about them. It was about God. So using that as a reason for anyone to marry an atheist doesn't work, considering an atheist can't resist talking about themselves.
2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness," Again, where in the bible does it say marrying an unbeliever is what God accepts? If a Christian cannot follow the Bible, they are not a Christian. They are just at theist. And that's nothing special to brag about as you do when you mention who you're married to. And by bragging I'm not talking about proud of your marriage (as are most) or that you are happy (as are others) but to show how tolerant you are or how open you are. I don't see how marrying someone who doesn't follow the bible is something that's open. Just sounds like another atheist. 1 Corinthians 7:39 -- " A wife is bound during all the time her husband is alive. But if her husband should fall asleep [in death], she is free to be married to whom she wants, only in [the] Lord." And an atheist isn't in the lord, therefor marrying one does not make a Christian, it removes one. Notice I never said your marriage is WRONG, like you wish me to. I'm saying that if you are going to claim someone as Christian, you're going to have to do better than because you say so...use the Bible.
Your beliefs are not accepted
Your beliefs are not accepted dogma except by you. Whatever. This is why Christianity has so many denominations. No two "Christians" believe exactly the same things. For example, Lutherans, Catholics and baptists are dramatically different in what they say it means to "follow god's word."
In my opinion it only matters
In my opinion it only matters what is at the core of the belief. The Apostles Creed is the simplest form of that core. Lutherans LCMS and ELCA profess this same faith as well as Roman Catholics and Baptists. Why are there so many denominations? Because men are sinful beings and like to argue about minutia. Same reason this site and others like it exist. :D Lutherans LCMS and Roman Catholics are closer to the same beliefs than either would care to admit.
The Catholic Heretic
They believe in the Bible.
They believe in the Bible. Use OT to back your claim. You can't. I did. Speaks for itself.
The OT is rife with things no
The OT is rife with things no one follows today, like the command in Deuteronomy 21 to execute children insult their parents.
Not every christian is a literalist when it comes to the bible. In fact, many think literalists are the true heretics, trying to take stories that contradict each other and claim they form a uniformly consistent unerring "word of god." Again... you are speaking for yourself. Here are some glaring errors in the bible: Job 9:6 -> He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble., {This claims the earth is set on pillars} Psalm 96:10: "Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." {This means the earth cannot move}. I could go on, but others say it better than me: http://www.explorefaith.org/homiliesLent/20040402.html
And that's why she's not a
And that's why she's not a Christian. You've yet to show backing by the Bible that she is
I keep trying to get through
I keep trying to get through to you Percy. That measuring stick you're using is a two-edged sword. *** John 12:46-48 (NIV) I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. *** Luke 6:36-38 (NIV) Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” *** Matthew 7:1-3 (NIV) “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? *** Check out your statement => "And that's why she's not a Christian." I think I see the point you are trying to make but I do not agree with it. Based on the posts made by CRW here, Percy, you infer the following beliefs of CRW: Christians are fools. Christians do not use logic. Christians are stupid. Christians are not worth speaking to let alone arguing with. *** In my experience these are common beliefs of all atheists. I seriously doubt CRW uses any of these with his family and given the attacks by you I can see why he would be totally blunt with you. Percy, you want CRW to admit that either Christians are not fools or that his wife is a fool. Why? What does it matter if CRW thinks we're fools? What would be the point of CRW telling his wife she is a fool? Read the Bible verses above again. Look them up if you think I am leading you astray. I don't let others define me, I define myself. God is the center of my life. Jesus is my savior. I am saved through faith in Christ Jesus. This is a gift of grace - look it up.
The Catholic Heretic
I called no one a fool. CRW
I called no one a fool. CRW claims to know the bible and has never used it to back his idea of Christian. That's because he can't. As for your judgment scriptures, you apparently forgot they apply to you using them as judgment as well. Less you forget, Jesus didn't put up with fakes. Nor should you.
I have never claimed that my
I have never claimed that my idea of what it means to be christian is in any way tied to a literal interpretation of the bible. In fact, I have said just the opposite. The bible is a self-contradictory set of references with statements that are clearly false in some places. It is you who is imposing a biblically literalist approach. My wife and I have talked repeatedly about how Paul turned christianity in a negative direction away from some of the love and acceptance of the gospels. No, I am no christian. I am not a fake because I am honest about my absence of spiritual beliefs of any sort. You are trying to impose external either/or conditions that my wife and I don't accept. Really... it is not an argument you can win. You have your beliefs, my has hers. You think she is not a true christian or I am not a true atheist, and we think you are a judgmental hypocrite who is about as far from the spirit of Jesus' teachings as you can get.
I never said you did. I said
I never said you did. I said you want him to admit that his wife is a fool for being a Christian. "As for your judgment scriptures, you apparently forgot they apply to you using them as judgment as well." - Nope. You seem to have forgotten => 2 Timothy 3:15-17 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." I am teaching/correcting you, not sitting in judgment.
The Catholic Heretic
Religion, comprises a system
Religion, comprises a system of wishful illusions together with a disavowal of reality, such as we find in an isolated form nowhere else but in amentia, in a state of blissful hallucinatory confusion. ~ Sigmund Freud........................................................
All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. ~ Thomas Paine...............................................................................It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious, then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. ~ Albert Einstein
Chuck
You have made your point that
You have made your point that you think my approach is foolish. Fine... moving on, I won't be altering my parenting approach based on your feedback since you probably still live with your parents or take money from them. My kids are doing well. How are yours? Oh that's right! You are talking "theoretically."
I never called you foolish.
I never called you foolish. That's your words against religion in almost all your post on this site, and you wonder why a real Christian couldn't marry an atheist or a real atheist couldn't marry a Christian. Your parenting style is yours. I was not trying to alter it, what a waste of time that would be. I'm pointing how how dishonest it is. If one's parents aren't even sure enough in what they believe to marry someone who doesn't think like them, then both must be wrong and someone else is right. What you're saying is you'd have no problem with them becoming Mormon, Jehovah's Witness or another religion...turn around and not associate with any you more because you are not part of that religion. Really? You'd brag about how you gave them (even though all parents do that, even the abusive ones, cause no one can take away choice) choice to choose what they wanted? I think your tolerance for allowing "free thinking" is limited to what you deem worthy.
Percy, you are making a lot
Percy, you are making a lot of assumptions. Are you a Roman Catholic or Protestant? If you are a Protestant what denomination? I am a Christian and I attend a Lutheran Church (LCMS). Are you a parent? You need to remember this => 2 Peter 2:1-3 "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping."
The Catholic Heretic
Not a real Christian.
Not a real Christian.
Exact quote from your post:
Exact quote from your post: "You have ears but do not hear. You have eyes but do not see. You have a mind but do not think. You look at the world but cannot understand it nor do you marvel at it." <<< Please don't try to weasel out of your true intentions by claiming these words were not meant to be insulting. Of course they were! You are claiming superiority because of your spiritual insights. I am calling BS. I am saying provide one shred of proof for the existence of the spiritual that does not consist of quotes from the bible or other forms of dogma. When you can do that, you will have credibility. Until then, you are just another condescending zealot.
Okay, you said to stop using
Okay, you said to stop using biblical quotations. I said I wouldn't if I thought they were relevant. I guess I should have used it here. The section you quoted is from the Bible, not verbatim, but as close as I could remember. It's not talking about the physical world and it is not meant to be condescending. The problem with forums is that 80% of communication is non-verbal. Each of us has our own world view which we use to filter input. I am not claiming "superiority because of your spiritual insights" I am just pointing out that you cannot understand spiritual things, that's all. That doesn't make me better or worse than you. Does that make sense? What I read from your post here is that if I cannot come up with one fact that God exists you will dismiss me as a lunatic. Start dismissing, there are no facts for the non-spiritual. This is based totally on faith. For the spiritual person we see facts all around us. They are impossible to miss. What do you see when you look in the mirror? I see one face of God. When I look at others I see the many faces of God. We are all made in his image. What do you see? I have several Atheist friends and they respect my beliefs, they're still arrogant and I have told them that but they are still my friends. Online I have "met" dozens of Atheists, all arrogant based on their posts. That could be my world view rearing it's ugly head as I can be arrogant too. On another note how's that work being married to a Christian? One of my Atheist friends met and married an RC and now he's Agnostic. He even goes to church because he is willing to learn. I would hope that you don't go to church with her still claiming to be an Atheist.
The Catholic Heretic
Well, this is not meant to be
Well, this is not meant to be condescending... but, CatholicHeretic, you are a maniac who does not understand logic, but you do enjoy basing your life on beLIEfs, which are, by definition, against logic. I am a real heretic, a heretic for all religions, you are all full of (not-logic) and outright bigotry and, to say the least, stupidity. Ah, yes, I was striving for non-condescension, and I did it!
I actually claimed at one time to be a Catholic - it was for young loves, of course - and the priest told me that I didn't really have to believe all of the bullshit, just go along and get along, the way he did. Father John O'Conner (1900-1972), he was, In Topeka. Just an atheist making a living.
I was still a better Catholic than my wife at the time, heh.
O'yeah, crosses... they're xian things, and do not ever belong on public property, according to the constitution and sealed by the United States Supreme Court.
Argue as much as you want, you're still fucking wrong.
Mr. Franklin, I am not sure
Mr. Franklin, I am not sure to which post you are referring or if this is just a general slam. Obviously you did not read all the posts as I did not support the cross being on public land. I sense a lot of anger in your post. Why? I do not recall responding to any of your posts. Did I say something to offend you? If so I apologize. God bless you and may the peace of Christ Jesus fill your life. Amen.
The Catholic Heretic
Actually, CatholicHeretic in
Actually, CatholicHeretic in one of posts back to me said he understood that the cross on public land was unconstitutional. Other posters like ShawninMO argues against the courts, saying they're wrong in enforcing its current brand of separation. Wackos like Percy argue we are a christian nation, etc. Maybe my perspective is different, but as a business owner and an atheist, I can't afford to crap on all the believers around me. I would be sued by my employees and I would lose most of my customers. When you are raised with belief and it is socially unacceptable to not believe, most people become believers. Now that atheists can be open without being burned at the stake, it will be interesting to see if the current trend against religion in the US continues or plateaus. I believe it will trend downward for decades more before it flattens out. Eventually, believers will be the minority, but probably not in my lifetime.
Thank you for an honest
Thank you for an honest answer.
Faith is voluntarily
Faith is voluntarily ignorance.
Chuck
Voluntary and willful
Voluntary and willful ignorance... they know they're wrong and make the decision to be wrong for some really stupid reason... probably peer pressure.
I think you mean "Faith is
I think you mean "Faith is voluntary ignorance" or "Faith is voluntarily ignorant." I'm leaning towards the first because I have heard it millions of times. And your statement is false. Atheists are ignorant of faith. They know nothing about it because they don't have it. If you don't believe anything without facts then how do you know you spouse loves you? Is saying "I love you" a fact? Is buying you something evidence of love? You toss out biblical quotes without understanding them or their context. You, Chuck, refuse to take the first step in understanding and bash others who do. Why? Does my faith take something away from you? Do you think I don't understand your perspective? If so you would be incorrect. Science is and always will be fascinating to me. The more I learn the more I believe there is a God. I'm not throwing aspersions on your beliefs. The scientific community always has two sides. That's what makes it advance. If everyone agreed we would get nowhere.
The Catholic Heretic
I have examined all of the
I have examined all of the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our superstitions of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all founded on fables and mythology. Christianity has made one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. Thomas Jefferson
Chuck
Check your source first:
Check your source first: "Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites." (http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/ot2www-singleauthor?specfile=/web/data/jefferson/texts/jefall.o2w&act=text&offset=8287826&textreg=1&query=burnt) ### I find it funny that both sides use Jefferson as an expert for or against Christianity. When I read his writings I see a man that was fed up with organized religion and did not want to be associated with it. Some take this to mean that he was not a Christian, i.e. a follower of Jesus. I think the "Jefferson Bible" sums up that he was a follower of Jesus but did not truly accept Him as God incarnate. We profess our faith in the creeds of which the Apostles Creed is the simplest and most well known, "I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen." So from my perspective he was a follower of Jesus teachings but not a Christian. Will he go to Heaven? That's up to Jesus, not me.
The Catholic Heretic
Jefferson was a deists.
Jefferson was a deists.
Chuck