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Animal Rights

Gary Francione Responds to UK's George Monbiot

Dear Colleagues:

Guardian UK columnist George Monbiot, who expressed support for veganism, has recanted his support and, in an editorial entitled, I was wrong about veganism. Let them eat meat – but farm it properly, Monbiot jumps on the “happy” meat bandwagon.

I wrote a brief comment that was posted on the Guardian website:

Dear Mr. Monbiot:

I have three comments:

First, putting aside whether Fairlie is right about the environmental issues, you are missing a fundamental point: the consumption of animal flesh and products cannot be justified as a moral matter apart from environmental considerations. Think about it. We all agree that inflicting unnecessary suffering and death on sentient beings is morally wrong. We can argue about what “necessity” means, but if it means anything at all, it must mean that we cannot inflict suffering and death for reasons of pleasure, amusement, or convenience. But those are the only arguments that exist in favor of consuming animal products. No one maintains that eating animal products is necessary for human health (quite the contrary) and animal agriculture is still a significant ecological problem even if Fairlie is right. The only justification that we have for inflicting pain, suffering, and death on 56 billion animals (not counting fish) is that they taste good and we enjoy eating them.

If that constitutes a moral justification, then animals have no moral value and we should just acknowledge that they are outside the moral community altogether rather than hypocritically maintaining a moral principle about unnecessary suffering and death that is wholly without meaning.

Second, I have yet to read Fairlie’s book but your description of his environmental arguments makes it appear that his analysis of the issues is questionable at best.

Third, your position that we ought to make animal production more “humane” is unbelievably naive. Animals are property; they are economic commodities. They have no inherent value. Animal welfare reforms provide very little protection to animal interests and If you looked at the history of animal welfare reforms, you would see that, for the most part, they do little beyond making animal production more economically efficient. These are reforms that industry would have implemented anyway. Consider the move away from veal crates. Veal crates increase animal stress and result in higher veterinary costs; small group units decrease costs and do not lower meat quality. The same analysis supports moving away from gestation crates for pigs, adopting controlled-atmosphere killing of poultry, etc.

The economic inefficiencies of intensive agriculture, which developed in the 1950s, are becoming increasingly clear. There will be changes in factory farming and some of these changes may arguably provide a marginal welfare benefit to animals. But that is all that will happen. Large animal groups in the US and UK, which make millions off promoting these inevitable reforms, turn these small changes into big campaigns for “humane” treatment and that makes people think that progress is being made.
Could animal welfare standards be much better? Sure-in theory. Any significant departure from intensive agriculture would mean much higher costs and given the reality of global markets and the inability to stop import of lower welfare products, it’s simply not realistic. Moreover, if consumers (or rather, those affluent consumers who could afford it) cared enough to pay the much higher costs that would be involved, they would probably care enough about animals as a moral matter not to eat them at all.

In any event, even if animal welfare standards increased dramatically, our treatment of animals would still represent torture if humans were involved. Water boarding someone on a padded board is marginally better than using an unpadded board but it is still torture.

There is no way to do animal agriculture in a way required to feed billions (even if they consumed fewer animal products) without inflicting torture on animals. I am astounded that you apparently think to the contrary and have jumped on the “happy meat/animal products” bandwagon.

Thank you for your consideration of my comments.

Gary L. Francione
Professor, Rutgers University
Newark, New Jersey
www.abolitionistapproach.com

*****
It is sad to see a progressive person like George Monbiot buy into this welfarist, reactionary nonsense.

Gary L. Francione
© 2010 Gary L. Francione

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Comments

libover30's picture

Morals are no more!

I grew up eating meat, only because I was forced to eat meat. Not because I needed it to live, far from it, but just because the generation before me was told to eat it and that generation before them. So when one becomes a certain age we should all start asking questions. Just because the other generations did it doesn't make it right.

As for needing meat to live, this is just not true. I haven't eaten meat or fish for 15 years and I am more healthy than most people. So for people to continue saying you need this is WRONG.

Here's a good example. My husband and I had lunch out. Of course he eats tortured meat. So I ask him, you say you don't eat fish...no he said, can't stand it. Does your mother eat it? No she can't stand it either. If she had eaten fish then he would have eaten fish, but since she didn't eat it or her mother before her, they don't eat fish. We don't need fish either to live healthy lives.

It shocks me to see people continue to eat meat when they have a true idea of the suffering these creatures go through. It is because they are just to lazy to find the truth. It was done before them...it must be right then.

And 'we are not all vegans' makes a comment that in order to continue to eat meat then these creatures must be tortured?? Strange, why shouldn't these creatures be given a good life?

We should be better than this! DO THE RIGHT THING!

Athelas's picture

Montbiot

Not that it would fit in this particular threat, but I only today read an article citing Mr. Montbiot in which he vehemently defended nuclear power plants as being the only alternative to those pesky coal power stations - AFTER everything that is discussed as a result of the Fukushima nuclear disaster.

So his morals seem questionable (at least to me) in more than one respect.

neon-armadillo's picture

we are not all vegans

"Water boarding someone on a padded board is marginally better than using an unpadded board but it is still torture.
There is no way to do animal agriculture in a way required to feed billions (even if they consumed fewer animal products) without inflicting torture on animals." -- from Mr. Francione's post

Waterboarding is not and has never been an accepted practice in animal agriculture. If it were, it is a practice that animal welfarists would make certain to put an end to, and rightly so.

People will continue to eat meat, Mr. Francione. We are omnivores by nature, as you once said.

Athelas's picture

Waterboarding is only an analogy...

... for the animal abuse that is much worse that happens day-in, day-out in factory farming.

But even without searing off chickens beaks with a hot knive, putting calves into 'veal crates' where they can not move, and the way in which most animals are slaughtered - even if those did NOT occur, it would STILL be wrong to exploit animals.

Was slavery a bad thing if the slaves were treated 'humanely'?

I guess most people today would agree that it was right to abolish slavery even if some slave owners treated their slaves 'humanely' - and even although slavery certainly contributed a lot to the wealth that America is enjoying today.

Best regards,
Andy
.

darioringach's picture

Other conflicts of interest

The interests of animals and humans also conflict in many other areas besides food . For example, the number of vertebrate animals that end up as roadkill every year is at least 10 times more than those use in experimentation. Does this mean driving is unethical in your view?

Bea Elliott's picture

Another road

Gee, I sure wish you'd cite your source for the stats on the numbers of "road kill" animals as opposed to those sacrificed in labs... Anyway...

"Does this mean driving is unethical...?" If I have the choice between driving on road #1 which causes great harm to creatures or driving on road #2 which causes less harm - Than certainly "yes" if for a matter of "convenience" I took road #1, it would be unethical.

And doesn't the same hold true for other practices? If I have the option of buying "free trade" goods as opposed to those made at great cost to humans... Isn't tha too be unethical?

Really, I don't even see that there is a question here on what is the right thing to do - "ethically".

darioringach's picture

Statistics

Stats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadkill

There is no other road... If you drive, you are contributing to the killing of animals. Isn't that so?

Bea Elliott's picture

another road...

Fortunately there is "another road" in choosing what to eat, what to wear and what to enjoy as "entertainment". And since we DO have alternatives which cause less harm - Those are the "routes" we should (ethically) take..

Sasha James's picture

Wikipedia

You use wikipedia as your point of reference and you're an expert. That's a concern.

darioringach's picture

Databases

You can find the databases from New England here:

http://roadkill.edutel.com/rkdataarchive.html

Nationwide data has been extrapolated form this set.

These data are only for reported cases. So I can easily imagine they represent a lower bound on the actual figures.

I am pretty sure not every dead squirrel I see every morning on the way to UCLA gets reported.

Athelas's picture

People are killed as well by cars.

Hello Dario,

your analogy is not very fitting in my opinion.

Everybody who drives a car today understands that there is a risk that animals - or humans - are killed as a result of traffic accidents. However, everybody also does his/her utmost to avoid this, and there are laws to make driving a 'safe' activity.

Experimenting on animals, on the other hand, does not have that limitation. The death of the animal is accepted because it is seen as 'inevitable' by the experimenter.

That, in my eyes, is a major difference that makes the example unusable as analogy.

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