Drug-Friendly Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime
By Bruce Mirken
For years prohibitionists, including our own Drug Enforcement Administration, have claimed — falsely — that the tolerant marijuana policies of the Netherlands have made that nation a nest of crime and drug abuse. They may have trouble wrapping their little brains around this:
The Dutch government is getting ready to close eight prisons because they don’t have enough criminals to fill them. Officials attribute the shortage of prisoners to a declining crime rate.
Just for fun, let’s compare the Netherlands to California. With a population of 16.6 million, the Dutch prison population is about 12,000. With its population of 36.7 million, California should have a bit more than double the Dutch prison population. California’s actual prison population is 171,000.
So, whose drug policies are keeping the streets safer?
Drug-Friendly Netherlands to Close 8 Prisons -- Not Enough Crime
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Genetics
Unfortunately,somewhere in our lineage,our forefathers bred out all
the European common sense genes,
As proof,just continue doing the stupid things we do. Remove the lawyers from dreaming up the laws for man. No more elected officials with a law degree,period. If this is the best they can do,we
don't need it.
- Clay
May 27, 2009 9:15AM
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No more elected officials with a law degree!
Just though I would add that Jan Peter Balkenende the current Dutch Prime Minister got an LLM in Dutch Law in 1982 and a Ph.D. in Law in 1992.
- penfold
May 29, 2009 6:58AM
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No More Politicians with Law Degrees?
I don't believe you've fully examined the implications of this statement, because if you had you would realize that it is inane.
Even if we lived in such a world, lawyers would still be chiefly responsible for enforcing the laws, and still fill most judicial benches.
Having a law degree does not determine a person's character, ethical system, foresight, compassion, or even their profession. Indeed, all it means is that they have completed law school at an accredited institution; which says only that they have some grasp on the theory, and practice of law.There are many decent, clearheaded, honest, and capable individuals that could genuinely improve the lives of the people through effective and comprehensive legal reform, that also happen to have law degrees.
I do not mean that there aren't bad lawyers, and I would even go so far as to say that there are problems with legal education at some institutions which is evidenced by the sort of JDs they produce. Many of this sort are also politicians.
As for "common sense genes," I advise you to evolve some "phenotypes" for the benefit of future generations: critical thinking and prudence. Making sweeping categorical generalizations about large groups of people demonstrates poor intellectual rigor, because these generalizations are inevitably imprecise.
Therefore, I purpose that we deny public office instead to individuals incapable of critical thinking and prudence, and those who believe inevitably imprecise, sweeping generalizations about large groups of people .
- One More Queer
May 28, 2009 3:58AM
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Common Sense dictates that your Answer isn't the Answer
Well just to defend Genetics' statement a bit I'm relatively certain that he didn't want to put a ban on all politicians with law degrees, what he wanted, stated simply, is a rebirth of common sense in America.
We here in America have been faced with the unique problem of having zero foresight with a ridiculous stubborn mindset that comes with a fear of change. When the law passed that made Marijuana illegal I'm sure the lawmakers that passed the bill didn't foresee the billions we spend on the war on drugs , or the lives lost, or the rampant crime rate that would come from it. Common sense would dictate that if all of these things would happen by passing the law, that you wouldn't to do that. The problem is though, at the time the general American public was scared of the effects of the drug through a smear campaign by William Randolf Hearst, a man who stood to gain much by the passing of the bill. And now that same fear drives us to keep the drug illegal, even though we know now that none of those terrible effects exist.
Common Sense would dictate that if we have found something now that can help with sickness, generate tax revenue, free tax dollars that can combat real problems that America faces (poverty, violent crime, etc....) we should use it. The problem is that once again our common sense has been blinded through a series of misinformation campaigns that evoke fear in us. This problem doesn't lie with our lawmakers and heads of state , but instead within us all. To create real change we all have to realize that our common sense is stronger than our fear and that logically it makes more sense for it to be legal than illegal.
Also in defense of Genetics, there is no reason to attack his statement. It's his opinion and honestly probably one written out of anger at the situation. Who wouldn't be angry when the country that one adores, especially one that values the individual and personal freedom, is moving in the opposite direction of one's own idea of perfection?
It doesn't show a lack of intellectual rigor, but instead a passion that should reside within all people. In addition to this, what makes him wrong? Of course there is always an exception to every general statement made, and that is one that that will never change. It has always been a person with a law degree that has had their hand in the poor decisions that this country has made and that is the point that he was trying to get across. A point which was missed entirely by you because you just wanted to point out the mistake he made in making a sweeping generalization.
- EhLm
May 28, 2009 9:44AM
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Indeed, it was not, but I do not think there is one answer.
In re-reading my response, it was unnecessarily vituperative, but that is because I also feel passionately that you have both already identified an explanatory variable with a much clearer correlation than law degrees; this lack of critical thinking and common sense and foresight in government and the nation at large. On this point I think we are entirely agreed; common sense is critical for everyone.
I don't think I "missed the point" about those with law degrees having a hand in poor decisions made by our government. I may, however, have failed to communicate that while there is a clear correlation, there are confounding variables which I feel makes the exceptions to this rule significant. For example, one could note also that white people, the wealthy, people who identify as heterosexual, and Christians have all had the majority vote in every legislative decision this country has ever made. I'm not suggesting that one of these (or even all of these) explain legislative decisions that undermine personal liberty and the public interest.
That is my point, and that is where I feel Genetics was wrong; a simple explanation (like law degrees) does not accurately explain this complex political phenomenon. Moreover, I feel unexamined sweeping generalizations demonstrate a similar fallaciousness to the unsound reasons provided for drug laws . Post hoc, ergo propter hoc and slippery slope statements used to justify drug laws, and those used to explain why we created such laws, are birds of a feather. It bears repeating, critical analysis, foresight, and common sense are much clearer explanatory variables.
I think passion is beautiful and important, but if it leads us to logical fallacies, it no longer serves us in the struggle to uplift humanity.
- One More Queer
May 30, 2009 1:58PM
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I think were going to have to agree to disagree
I appreciate the time you took to actually rebuttal and clarify your previous comment. I can now see where you are coming from with a much greater sense of clarity. I'll apologize for not looking deeper into your original comment and seeing that you were just simply pointing out that there are more factors involved here than just the law degree and that this one aspect of the lawmaker is actually, in fact, only one of the many that can lead to the undermining of our personal freedoms. On this fact you are correct, I do agree with the up most vigor.
What I do not think we can agree on, however, is the role of passion within the confines of a democracy . Even if a comment made by a fiery individual is full of logical fallacy, and even if the comment made is offensive, wrong, or just a down right lie, it stands to reason that comment was at least made with the up most good intent or at the very least to somehow create the vision of America that the individual who made the comment foresees as ideal. That comment doesn't necessarily degrade anything within the confines of the law and in the realm of personal liberty, actually stands to verify the fact that we are a nation of varied peoples, ideologies, and ideas of perfection. By this series of logic I mean something along the lines of Voltaire when he said something along the lines of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
I hope that clarifies what I meant through my previous comment, but if it doesn't I understand, I'm having trouble at the moment putting exactly what I meant into words.
Furthering my position on passion, Passion is one aspect of humanity within which we don't have to be logical and through this illogical process we uplift ourselves to a place much higher than we ever could with logic and reasoning. For example, lets examine the circumstances under which America was founded. It was very illogical of us to take on the most powerful empire in the world at the time, and it was illogical for us to throw down our lives for the principles of freedom (and it still is), but what happened? Debatably, We created possibly the greatest empire that the world has ever known. All of this was made possible by the passions of a group of men whom we now hail as heroes and standards of greatness.
My point is that without a respect for passion and the illogical fervor it allows, there is no reason to even bother trying to make a sound logical decision. This is because, at least from my point of view, people don't work that way. We are emotional beings, throwing ourselves to the fire because that is what we believe to be right. In a perfect world, logic and reasoning would be the defining factors that all people adhere to, but in reality, this is not a perfect world, and the people who live within this world are not creatures of logic and reasoning, but instead fiery passion. If we can harness this fact, we can forcibly apply logic to our passions and force ourselves closer and closer to that set of perfect logical ideals that should govern all men.
- EhLm
May 30, 2009 2:52PM
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Counterpoints, in the order their respective points appear
1. How can one presume good intent when someone is being illogical, and how is good intent meaningful if a person's motivation is not internally consistent?
2. If one's ideals are not internally consistent, I do not see how moving America, or anything toward realizing them could be possible, let alone beneficial.
3. A diversity of ideas is necessary for the intellectual health of any society . However, ideologies that are not internally consistent, that is, those whose conclusions do not follow from their premises, do not serve this function; instead, they confound productive debate with meaningless assertions.
4. I was not arguing that he was not free to spout inanities, just that he should not if he expects to communicate his position effectively.
5. I do not agree with your characterization of the American revolution as illogical. While certainly the average militia man might not have reasoned the chances of American success, the ideological foundation of the movement toward independence was formed through reasoned debate and the rational extension of the Enlightenment's ideas of liberty and the social contract. The merchant class was convinced of the validity of America's independence through argument, not passionate inanities. Also, the revolution was a result of many forces acting on a heterogeneous population, and passion, with out carefully constructed reasoning, could not be communicated well enough to move even most of them.
6. I believe that you have it backwards; people become passionate because of what they reason to be right and not the other way around. I can't claim that I can characterize simply "the way people work," but I know that people become passionate for a reason, and while it might seem irrational to an outside observer; reason means only that the conclusions follow from the premises, not that something is objectively true.
7. We are creatures of passion and reason. The two are not opposed, and are in fact mutually interdependent.
- One More Queer
May 31, 2009 3:18PM
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No more lawyers making laws
When you put the wolves in charge of the hen house,you lose chickens.
When lawyers make laws,they are the only ones that understand them,and can find the loopholes too break them,and their fellow
lawyers get to make money defending them or fighting them.
It's a win,win situation for them. If no one else makes money from a law ,lawyers will.
We do need lawyers too advise and assist elected persons as too the wording and form of the law ,we just don't need them thinking them up.
And as for generalizations,everyone does it,and will continue to do it,right or wrong. So don't be offended by someone beleiving generalizations,after all,only potheads whose brain is fried like an egg visit these drug law sites.
- Clay
May 31, 2009 9:11PM
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Pot Heads
Believe it or not, its possible to use reason and smoke marijuana . For example, I'm stoned off my ass right now, but I know that "everyone does it,and will continue to do it,right or wrong" is an ad populum argument, and does not hold water. "Other people do it" is neither a reason, nor a defense, nor a justification.
If, hypothetically, everyone condoned torture , would I be off-base for being offended by their callousness? The fallacy is blatant, even to stoners. I will continue to find your irrationality irksome, counterproductive, and insidious, regardless of the degree of my inebriation.
- One More Queer
June 4, 2009 3:27PM
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American sign language
mlm
- Clay
June 4, 2009 5:06PM
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Common sense
Drug friendly is better, it's out in the open so you can deal with in a friendly way, America's violenst solutions to any problem don't seem to work. We have less teenage pregnancies, less prisoners, less dead soldiers, less mass murderers, less school shootings and I can go on and on and on and on and on
- mikmak
May 30, 2009 6:35AM
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Nest of crime
Holland is not a nest of crime and drug abuse, the centre of Amsterdam is, but that's all tourists from all over the world abusing our friendly system.
- mikmak
May 30, 2009 6:37AM
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As a Dutch Person..
I would know what is serious and what wouldn't be.
The fact that the Netherlands is so free, only made us stronger, and I have the weird feeling, that everybody knows that our way of handling things isn't wrong. But I believe that most public leaders and politicians are afraid to admit they are wrong.
The Dutch are open for every idea and option. So abortion and free drugs policies are normal to us. So is drinking aclocohl at 16. Smoking weed at 18 and so on.
but the Netherlands of the European countries has the leasest teenage moms, no serious drinking problems and no drug war . We live in peace and our children are responsible. The only reason why is because we talk to each other. Something that especially the Americans are missing.
We dont have these problems because we dont tend to ruin people over 1 gram of hash or weed.
So America; GET OVER YOURSELF and see the real world.
- Jorindee
June 1, 2009 7:47AM
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As another Dutch person
I'd like to add that the stuff discussed here is not quite as clear cut as its made out to be. Marijuana is decriminalized here but not entirely legal . In effect this means that coffee shops (the cannabis retail points) are legal, registered, pay tax etc. however the production of marijuana remains illegal - a glaring naive flaw in our governments' perspective. The reason why France and Belgium politicians hate our drug policy is because ironically most (hidden) plantations are in France and Belgium or the "goods" pass through these countries on the way from Morocco. That's not to say Holland doesn't have its own growers, it certainly does but all and all it does prove an oddity in Dutch law that has everything to do with bureaucratic administration rather then practical implementation.
Having said all that, having traveled throughout Europe during college years, the whole " drug war " on soft drugs, and the logic that soft drugs lead to hard drugs is self-perpetuating nonsensical drivel. In Holland at 18 I could walk into a coffeeshop and buy my weed or hash and be off again - be that work, school, see friends etc.
In countries were marijuana is illegal, if I wanted to buy weed I'd have to visit a dealer and was thereby often almost automatically within access of cocaine, heroine, acid, crack, speed, and mdma - and this is where tough drug laws on marijuana simply lose their own credibility.
- Darok
June 2, 2009 6:14AM
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Thanks
I completely agree with you.
Thanks
- Jorindee
June 2, 2009 10:42AM
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Absolutely True
I've always said that the only thing supporting the gateway theory is the fact that harder drugs are peddled right along with marijuana . When kids come to the correct conclusion that marijuana's not harmful, they start considering the harder substances, and eventually make that first purchase of methamphetamine or other which often leads to months, if not years, of abuse and addiction, or worse, an overdose.
- Starlon
October 3, 2009 12:57AM
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To another Dutch person...jt
As an American, who trained in outreach work in Amsterdam,I can only reaffirm that what you wrote is obviously correct.
But Americans have chosen to fund a drug- war rather than universal health care . and they got what they bought, which is nothing: more drugs ; more addiction; more HIV ; more hepatitis B & C; more endocarditis; more disease and more violence, to gain NOTHING.
It's is what happens when arrogant people think that they can be both ignorant and free. It's too bad. America could have been a much better country, but they persuaded by faith not facts, then the people who sell them faith lie.
Can't fix this problem.
Goedennacht.
- Joey Tranchina
December 11, 2009 8:51PM
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War on Drugs Inc.
The reason why the " drug war " will continue in America is because of the industry it has created. Police and sheriff departments, correctional officers, probation departments, judges, lawyers, public defenders, court clerks...that's just off the top of my head. That's not to mention the "drug recovery " industry. These are basically halfway houses where convicted drug users sometimes have the option to go in lieu of jail. That is if they can afford it. Not surprisingly, judges and lawyers often have financial interest in these establishments. Conflict of interest? This is America.
In this country we warehouse people as the article states. We have prisons that are privately owned for profit. You can bet there are powerful people who lobby for "zero tolerance" drug policies.
If it is true, as the statistics suggest, that 50 to 60% of the prison population is there on drug related crimes and if we ended the war on drugs , then we could probably eliminate half the prisons, cops...,etc. It's not going to happen.
It is no secret that most of my countrymen are idiots. It pains me to admit this, but the evidence is overwhelming. I mean look at the retard who held office for the last eight years. Sigh.
The war on drugs wages on like the war on terror ...And they call America the land of the free. Absurd.
- theanarchist
June 2, 2009 12:50PM
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War on Drugs Incompetent & corrupt...
YES. Beware the drug-industrial-complex & the prison -industrial-complex.
The problem is that, like the military -industrial-complex, they are far too intrenched in the government and the government is far too corrupt to unseat them even though they are destroying the country.
It's too bad, but to challenge this cancer inside the body of American society , would require and educated enlightened electorate and leaders with more courage, determination and loyalty that exist. America is toast... crushed by her own internal contradictions and perpetual delusions about her own moral character..
- Joey Tranchina
December 11, 2009 8:57PM
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TThe US should learn from the Netherlands
The US should learn from the Netherlands.Look out side the box! stop the prohibition of drugs!
- countryboy
August 10, 2009 9:56PM
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come on get higher loosen my lips
if it's good for the goose it's good for the gander. lets save money by cutting the DEA's budget and lets go dutch.
- isotope
August 13, 2009 12:53AM
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Logistical support and politics
First of all the Netherlands is an ally in the war on drug. We Rent an airfield in the Caribbean to the USA and do antidrug patrols with warships with American marines onboard.
Secondly the fact we have to many prison cells has noting the do with drugs . But with a shift in sentencing and prison polities.
*During the ‘90 we renovated prisons to do this we build temporary prisons withes stayed open after work was completed.
* We started to use 2 man cells in 2006 for non violent offender.
* For small crimes we started to use house arrest . With is cheaper than prison, we are Dutch after all.
And last but not least. The totally different social security system (wealth fare, healthcare and affordable Education) we have reduces crime and the use of hard drugs (heron, crack mdma ).
- jelle
September 17, 2009 9:59AM
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For the US Going Dutch would not be easy...jt
That's all correct. America has made a choice to have laws that give the government power to crush the lives of citizens rather than the Dutch choice of funding services that support those lives.
The Dutch have a social system which delivers real security, universal quality health care , all fueled by excellent public and private state-supported education . America has cops with bad manners; courts with full dockets and public and private prisons all fueled by bad schools , no universal health insurance and citizens who live in fear of cops and thugs. We have a population so under-educated and un-traveled that we allowed an ignorant president to stand up and say: "They hate us for our freedom" and did not laugh loudly in his face.
The only qualities that America retains in abundance are arrogance and a sense of entitlement. The world is quickly learning that there is no basis in reality for those attitudes.
Freedom is never a gift; it is always a fight. Americans have lost that fight and they don't even know it. That is the reason bad governments value bad education.
- Joey Tranchina
December 12, 2009 5:20AM
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Great for Netherlands
I am happy that some countries still are striving for what is best for its' citizens... UNFORTUNATELY I live in the USA where the almighty dollar rules over common sense. The reason this story can never happen in my country? Prison is an industry. For each inmate accounted for, a prison receives an estimated $30,000 to $40,000 per year. The actual cost to house, clothe and feed a prisoner as well as to pay for corrections officers and administration? $2,000 to $3,000 per inmate. That means each 'criminal' has a $27,000 - $37,000 profit margin for these huge corporations who have their lobbyists deeply rooted in Washington. It's nice to ASK the Government why it keeps to the current " drug war " and to read these nifty little "our drug war is wrong" articles, but it's always ALWAYS about their bottom line. Wake up and take it back America.
- wakeitup
October 4, 2009 11:53PM
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Want health care go to prison...jt
Calling the very conservative Dutch people "drug friendly" defies common sense. The netherlands is a very orderly country with largely law -abiding citizens. The Dutch are and always have been friends of individual liberty in ways that Americans claim to be but are not. Their profound faith in individual liberty is rooted in strong traditions of individual responsibility. In comparison to Dutch society American society is a perpetual destruction derby.
The Dutch are a very rational and a very communitarian people. They live in a very small country, that must be defended from the North Sea by very expensive and complex water works. They know from birth that they are all in it together. They take care of each other and in return for that support and that liberty, they work very hard to respect one another.
I've been in a Dutch jail, as a journalist not a guest, but I can tell you straight up you wouldn't want to spend time in one. But the Dutch, being rational people, reserve their jails for people who harm others; they do not incarcerate people who say or believe or do things they generally don't like. America on the other hand, is a religio- police state, where people who stand out by race or personal decoration are profiled, harassed and imprisoned in numbers that are both unprecedented and unmatched in the world. "They hate us for our freedom" Yea right.
The worst think that I can say about Holland is that the winters are too cold, for me. If my thin California blood could tolerate the weather, I would never have left Amsterdam.
As you wrote: "With a population of 16.6 million, the Dutch prison population is about 12,000. With its population of 36.7 million, California should have a bit more than double the Dutch prison population. California’s actual prison population is 171,000." I just sold the last piece of real estate that I own in California. I am done paying taxes to a state the can not control its own arrogance and stupidity.
America's problems are not mainly economic; that is transient.America's economic engine is strong. It is the American soul — that would cruelly and needlessly imprison so many relatively harmless human beings — that is weak. America will pay the price in blood for the unjust levels of pain that its legal system routinely inflicts upon the poor.
After decades of working within the system, I have finally decided America's ignorance and self-righteousness is unfixable. I'm moving back to Europe. Good luck with this one. Maybe America can arrest and incarcerate its way out of the drug war , but you had better build a lot more prisons . Maybe China will loan you the money .
- Joey Tranchina
December 11, 2009 8:38PM
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Drug War
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
This is what our war on drugs is pure insanity. It does so much more harm than the actual drugs themselves yet we just keep escalating it! How much of our population do we have to lock up before we realize this? How many people have to die ? How many lives have to be destoyed ?
- riac
December 25, 2009 9:53PM
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