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Continuous Creation or Evolution -- One has to be True

Creationists continue to try to find single species examples or general statements such as “irreducible complexity” to undermine evolution.  The problem is that simple logic based on the fossil records results in one of two conclusions – either evolution is true, or creation is a continuous event.

Even creationists acknowledge that natural selection within a species is demonstrably true. Creationists argue that Darwin's finches and pepper moths are changes within a species change and not evolution. Things like island based dwarfism are also just intra-species change, but not speciation. These examples demonstrate natural selection without full blown evolution. If you deny even this form of natural selection, then stop reading because what follows will simply make you angry.

Other modern examples of natural selection include drug resistant bacteria, chemically resistant weeds, and pesticide resistant insects. The flu virus mutates as it passes through people bypassing the immunities generated to its earlier forms, which is one of the reasons why the flu shot changes most years. Positive mutation and natural selection are demonstrable within our lifetime. Most species have not changed much within our lifetime, but there are some very testable examples such as bacteria, plants, insects, and other micro-organisms.

Assuming natural selection is acceptable, but evolution is not, is it possible that evolution is sometimes true? The most strongly supported example of evolutionary change over time is the modern day horse. It has the most complete transitional fossil record of any species living today. Spend a little time on Wikipedia for a bite sized explanation of equine evolution. It is hard to explain the fossil record of horses without accepting that evolution is at least sometimes true. If evolution is never true, how do we explain how both modern horses and pre-historic horses have no contemporaneous fossils? Either creation is a continuous event, meaning the creator is constantly adding new species as other species die out, or speciation occurred through transition. Horses are far from the only example of animals with clear transitional species. What about Neanderthals? What about the transitional forms of elephants? There are thousands of examples with millions of fossils. Even if you reject carbon dating, sediment layers consistently show the time sequencing of different species.  If you reject this assertion of clear physical evidence of evolution being at least sometimes true, then stop reading now because you'll only get angrier.

Let's assume that evolution is sometimes true but fails as a general theory. One of the common counterpoints is that a few species that appear to be static for an extended period of time. Let's examine what that means. Natural selection means that change benefits the species or individual organism or it causes no harm. Change that causes harm means the offspring with the negative change die off more frequently than offspring without the variation. If a species is well suited to its environment and experiences no external pressures by species changing around it, then it will not change. There are a handful of species that demonstrate this lack of change for an extended period of time such as the lungfish.  This is called evolutionary stasis.

Incomplete evidence of evolution for a single species does not invalidate the whole theory because there is no better explanation for the whole of the evidence or the perceived exceptions. The evidence we have today requires one of two explanations - either evolution is true or creation is continually occurring. People have never witnessed the act of "creating" a new species. Consequently, we have no evidence that creation is continually occurring, so it must be evolution that is the better theory.

Creationists can still salvage a form of creation by going with the hypothesis that the creator initiated life and set evolution in motion. However, this is where we would have to legitimately part ways. In my opinion, no one knows for sure how life started, which justifies no explanation other than "we don't know."  However, theistic evolution is still evolution.

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Comments

Joseph Wales's picture

Still,

We never are allowed to see your evolution magic. We're just supposed to assume it. Like a brainwashed public school child.

If evolution is happening all the time, then where are the results? Where is the mode? Oh, yeah, just "assume."

It ain't happening. 200 years we been watching, and you got nothing but bacteria that prefer lobster to steak.

MrBook's picture

happening

You can see it in action, just run some genetic tests on a organism then its descendants. We can also see it in the emergence of resistant bacteria, the changes in the physiology of lizards on isolated islands. And many other results.

Joseph Wales's picture

No you can't.

It always happens when no one is looking, like Santa Claus.

MrBook's picture

happens

Nope, it happens right before our eyes quite often.

Joseph Wales's picture

No, it doesn't

The mechanism of natural selection is an unobserved phenomenon, like Santa.

Sure, things die, but somehow your "new species" is never created as a result. My whole life I've been waiting to see a species develop through darwin's magic, but none have.

None. You have nothing but unfulfilled promises. Evolution isn't science at all.

MrBook's picture

it is the easiest

Natural selection is the easiest to observe. Those that have a slight advantage due to physiology (determined by genetics). As such they are more likely to survive, passing on those genes that enabled their increased survival.

Given enough time those changes accumulate and new species emerge (or splinter off existing species).

An interesting example of this is a splinter group of songbirds emerging in Europe... Migration is determined largely by genetics, and a mutation in those genes can drastically change the direction a bird migrates in. Among Blackcaps the pattern was for the birds to live / breed in Germany then migrate south over the Alps for the winter. Blackcaps with a mutation in their navigational genes that sent them in other directions would usually die of starvation. However due to the presence of bird feeders in England / Scottland those birds whose navigational gene sent them westward were able to survive (and pass on their genes to their offspring, including the mutant navigation gene). The two groups (south flying and west flying) are isolated from each other, even though they return to the same areas in Germany to mate, because their migration times are different. West flying Black Caps arrive earlier then south flying ones and pair up together. This creates an isolated population, and has led to significant genetic divergence over ~60 years (the time since Black Caps were first found in England). This is a speciation event in progress.

Joseph Wales's picture

sorry

I judge you to be unworthy of conversation. It's too bad too, because i had a witty comeback that I won't be able to use now.

MrBook's picture

withdraw

Go ahead and withdraw if you like, but there stands an actual example of how natural selection drives speciation.

Joseph Wales's picture

Unworthy

of my response.

SolarSanitizer's picture

It does not matter where the card is.

As long as the group of Christian-debunkers all agree that the ace is on that table, MrBook happily regurgitates the same.

The saddest/funniest part of it is that he points at you when warning him against the ruse and says "delusional".

MrBook irrationally worships groups of people who call themselves scientists, purposefully ignoring any and all challenges to their pseudo-scientific claims. He thinks the fact that they claim to agree is proof enough of what they claim to agree upon.

The Democratic National Committee approves of this website.

Soulf2's picture

Wait, what?

One of the peppered moths experiments had flaws found by the science pier review process. Piltdown man was exposed by scientists. "Nebraska" man (wtf is Arkansas man?) was another creationists notation exposed by scientists immediately after being created: Smith 1922 "Mr. Forestier has made a remarkable sketch to convey some idea of the possibilities suggested by this discovery. As we know nothing of the creature's form, his reconstruction is merely the expression of an artist's brilliant imaginative genius." Evolution exists. Get over it. get on with it. Visit http://www.talkorigins.org to learn why lying for god is wrong... unless your god likes liers.

Joseph Wales's picture

The peppered moths

were obvious fakes. Moths don't rest on the tree trunks. They rest in the branches. They were placed on the tree trunks by desperate frauds in search of evolution just-so stories.

Soulf2's picture

R U Serious?

Yea, Cambridge U only studied this for 30+ years... guess what they found? You're guilty of the 13th Foundation falsehood of creationism. How does it feel? Exposed as a liar... again.

Joseph Wales's picture

sorry

I'm not going to your keylogging site. Your bait is useless.

MrBook's picture

an interesting defense mechanism

I wonder who told you about keylogging sites. It is an excellent way to keep you so scared that there is little chance of you seeing something that challenges your world view.

Here is a hint: get Firefox, add the ScriptBlocker and ad blocker plus add-ons. Then you won't have to worry about those nasty keyloggers.

Soulf2's picture

People confuse phishing for key-logging

Mr Wales likely fell for a phishing scam and the easy way for customer service to describe a phishing scam to a non-tech person would be to call it a "keylogging" site. The victim then takes their new paranoid "knowlege" and refuses to visit any website they don't have previous experience with. Unfortunately, this does not teach the victim how to avoid phishing scams in the first place. However, Joseph has already proven he is not interested in learning anything new that does not already fit into foundational falsehoods of creationism.

Joseph Wales's picture

Sorry

I'm not going to your gay porn site. I'm not interested in gay porn.

Soulf2's picture

Pen Island Dot Com

ROFLYSST Dude, you totally crack me up!

Joseph Wales's picture

not interested

sorry thanks anyway.

Soulf2's picture

You're still here?

Still trolling... Now you sound paranoid and have exposed your ignorance of how the internet works. LOLs... Try Google images: moths on tree trunks... Ahh... why do I feed the trolls? Because exposing trolls like you make people like you question why they became evil and sometimes convince them that lying is wrong... even if it is for god.

MrBook's picture

faked

Both the Piltdown man and the Arkansas man were found to be fakes because they did not fit into the evolutionary model. It was the same tools that found those fakes that provide the evidence which supports evolution.

As to your assertion that"real, hard sciences are filled with men and women who are skeptical of Darwinism" is quite false. The number of creationists is quite low in the sciences.

"The math" stacks out quite well in favor of evolution. With bits like mutation rates, genetic markers, and such providing the evidence to back up the assertions of the Modern Synthesis theory of Evolution.

It's actually quite funny how you go from "Evolution is fake" straight to "my concept of 'God' is the correct one. That is quite the logical leap!

Joseph Wales's picture

no,

The math points to design.

MrBook's picture

a detailed proof

Wow, really! That is so convincing!

However... No, it doesn't.

The math points quite clearly towards evolution. There is more then enough time for all the mutations that we see to have occurred (we can even use the mutation rate as a clock). Further all mutations that occur exist within the space of probable mutations.

Joseph Wales's picture

No

The math supports design.

Soulf2's picture

What math would that be?

7th Foundation falsehood of creationism. Now you're just trolling.

Joseph Wales's picture

Actually,

You are the troll. How? All your comments so far lead innocent posters to your keylogging site. Bet you didn't think I knew.

Soulf2's picture

You're still here?

Still trolling... Now you sound paranoid and have exposed your ignorance of how the internet works. LOLs

MrBook's picture

saying it won't make it true

But then all you can ever do is say "no it doesn't"... Which may work in a theological discussion but not in a Scientific one.

Joseph Wales's picture

your discussion

isn't scientific. The probability of abiogenesis is astronomically less than that of intelligent design.

MrBook's picture

nope

Oh so now we are talking about abiogenesis, not evolution?

How exactly to you compute the possibility of there being a designer without describing the properties / attributes of that designer... Abiogenesis is only a hypothesis, but it still has far more going for it Scientifically then ID. So far ID has not offered a description of its designer, nor offered a mechanism for how that designer either came about, enacts its changes, or where that designer exists presently.

Joseph Wales's picture

Every complex machine you know was designed

Every complex, purposed machine you know was designed. Every complex purposed machine I know was designed.
Every complex, purposed machine anyone knows was designed.

Every jumbled mess I see was produced by accident, or a lack of organized thought.

From experience, I know that complex things that serve a purpose are designed by a purposeful intellect. My mind recognizes purpose and organized thought.

You atheists think that complex, purposeful things happen by accident, in contradiction to all the things you've seen before.

That's why atheists are a minority, because most people are smart enough to follow the rational course of things

You are not rational adults. You are children, who believe that a box of parts can fall down a hill, and assemble themselves into a masarati, like in a cartoon.

You aren't smart. You think you are, but you aren't.

Normal people don't need anybody to think for them, but you have allowed your masters in the government to replace your reason with doctrine.

MrBook's picture

machine

If you mean, everything that I know to be designed by humans I know is designed then you are correct. However if you take "machine" to be any complex system then the answer is no, not at all.

You insert the phrase "purpose" in there... Which is only relevant in relation to humans, it has no meaning without us about.

A machine is by definition something that was built by humans... But of we were to expand that definition to be "complex system" then the number of non-designed machines is much more then the number of designed machines. The ocean current system is a very complicated "thermodynamic machine" without a designer, the sun is a very complicated "fusion machine" that was not designed.

That you attribute "purpose" or "design" to things that are "complex" is a bias called anthropomorphism. You are largely saying that "a book is designed therefore has a purpose, so since a tree can serve a 'purpose' it must be designed".

I find it rather ironic that you say that I let the government think for me... When you quite clearly let a bunch of centuries dead nomads think for you.

Joseph Wales's picture

wrong

You said, "The ocean current system is a very complicated "thermodynamic machine" without a designer, the sun is a very complicated "fusion machine" that was not designed"

Says who? You? cosmologists have suggested that design is evident in those machines.

Shall I print the quotes?

MrBook's picture

quotes

This isn't a theology discussion where quoting passages from scripture passes for evidence. Link to the papers that those cosmologists have published containing their supporting evidence, not just quotes of their opinions.

Joseph Wales's picture

You aren't God

and you aren't my boss, so you don't define this discussion. You do not make the rules.
You atheists would if you could, though. Science is moving on without you though, because of the limitations you put on your thinking.

All of the things you claim have been done to prove evolution only prove that Designers can modify biological and mechanical machines in much the same way you claim God didn't.

They also prove how impossible it would be for them to happen by accident. God made man in his own image. Man is a thinking, creative engineer of complex machines, and so is God.

Not once have you witnessed one of these machines come into being without a designer. Not a single time.

MrBook's picture

rules

So are we going to have a Scientific discussion or a theological one? I generally stay away from theological ones, as they are largely pointless...

Have I shown that "Designers" can modify biological systems? Well they can... but just because they can does not mean that direct intervention by an intelligence is needed for a biological system to change. Indeed we can quite clearly see that that is not the case... there are no intelligences going around modifying bacteria to resist antibiotics, or viruses to dodge vaccines. Even you and I are evidence that an intelligence is not needed for offspring to differ from their parents.

The mechanisms I have shown function without any intelligence directing them... unless you have evidence that shows where an intelligence is directing them.

You have further provided no evidence to support your claim that your deity created mankind in "his own image" just more assertions. All you have done is state "Mankind thinks and designs things, therefore everything has to be designed". An argument with no basis in reality.

Sure I have. I've see it in the plants that I have watched grow from seeds to adulthood. Nowhere in that process did I see an intelligence appear and cause those plants to come into being.

Joseph Wales's picture

incorrect

"there are no intelligences going around modifying bacteria to resist antibiotics, or viruses to dodge vaccines."

This statement is incorrect. within the bacteria and viruses, there are blueprints that allow them to adapt to various environments. They have been able to adapt since their creation.

"The mechanisms I have shown function without any intelligence directing them... unless you have evidence that shows where an intelligence is directing them."

Indeed, I do. All those things have a complex set of instructions called DNA (look it up, it's a science word) that tells them how to grow and operate. Like a program.

These programs are passed on from life to life, but to date, no one has been able to imagine a plausible scenario in which this complex information could be generated and placed into a viable original cell.

Humans, Designers and engineers, have done a similar thing with machines, although the process is simpler and less complex than a cell. Robots must be programmed to do as they do.

Imagine that robots were living long after the race of man ceased to be. Their programming allows them to build and replace broken robots, and adapt new robots to changing conditions . Yet there is no reason for any reasonable person to imagine that the first robot occurred by accident, is there?

The basic instructions MUST have come from somewhere. Logic does not lead to self creation, especially since the program necessary to run a cell is much more complex than Darwin ever imagined.

You atheists are dinosaurs, sinking in the tar pits of your own limitations, while science moves on without you.

MrBook's picture

blueprints?

You are projecting again. Though some may refer to DNA as a blueprint it hardly is. Blueprint's do not change unless someone directly acts upon them or a flaw appears in the copy process. A flawed blueprint is discarded. DNA is copied over and over again, and any flaws in the copy process are carried down to the next generation.

Further I have yet to see any evidence supporting your claim that DNA was wished into existence.

Like a program isn't a program. You are taking an analogy to be a literal description, but that is like saying "the sun setting lights up the horizon like fire" to mean that the sun is literally setting the sun on fire.

Abiogenesis hypothesises have made a good number of strides in describing how life formed... far further then the ID "and then everything just went POP."

Without evidence of the creator species, and plausible descriptions for how the first robots came about then yes it would be a reasonable assumption. If there is no evidence for there being a creator then one cannot Scientifically say that there is a creator... no matter how much you may wish that there was one.

So if the basic instructions must have come from somewhere then where did the basic instructions that make up the creator come from? If all complex things need a designer then who designed the designer?

Also, why are the number of atheists in the Sciences rising?

Joseph Wales's picture

Just as I thought

In the atheist mind, no quarter can ever be given to reason.

This:"Without evidence of the creator species, and plausible descriptions for how the first robots came about then yes it would be a reasonable assumption" proves it. You were willing to invent your own self-programming and manufacturing species merely to satisfy your religion, when all reason tells you that robots can't create themselves.

You aren't scientifically minded, or reasonably minded. You aren't even philosophically minded. You're religious.

MrBook's picture

From their POV

We are talking about from the POV of the robots, not our POV. If a species of robots was created, all evidence of that creation was erased, and the robots were able to show that robots could emerge on their own then from their POV it would be very reasonable for them to say "we were not created, here is the evidence that robots can emerge on their own... there is no evidence that a creator existed."

I'd be willing to create my own self-programming, self manufacturing species because such a project would be incredible... not to prove some random theological point.

You are projecting again... the only one here ignoring Science is you.

Joseph Wales's picture

Not really

reason says that you should at least be able to imagine how something could happen before you say it did.

In your story, you said, "we were not created, here is the evidence that robots can emerge on their own"

I didn't go there. you did.

Imagine for me how robots can emerge on their own. Use your imagination. Like I said, you should at least be able to manufacture an imaginary circumstance where a complex machine manufactures and programs itself.

I bet you can't.

MrBook's picture

The part

I was speaking as a robot scientist may say after they uncover evidence that robots can emerge on their own, and in the absence of evidence for a creator(s).

Since we emerged on our own there is no reason to expect that other complex systems could emerge on their own.

I can imagine such a circumstance, though I don't need to... we see it all the time in the world around us. Lifeforms are in many ways very complicated machines, and they have no trouble assembling and programming themselves.

Of course life did not start out as "complicated" as it is now. The earliest forms of life were self replicating molecules. Over time mutation led to increased complexity, which led (over the course of a billion years to what we see around us).

Joseph Wales's picture

wait a minute!

Before you said lifeforms weren't machines. Now you say they are? That tells me something about you.

You would do anything to avoid truth.

Your "self-replicating molecules" theory has the same flaw as all the others. It's been demonstrated to be possible in a lab, in conditions incapable of sustaining life, by design. It hasn't happened by accident.

Once again, man is in the image of God, designing and tinkering with the elements to acheive a purposeful result.

I said it before. I'll say it again. Science is moving on without you and your "accidental" theories.
They're showing how life can be designed, but atheists are still empty handed in the "accidental complexity" department.

Atheists are sinking in their own limitations. Being left behind. Failing.

MrBook's picture

I said

I said that it depended on how you define "machine". If you expand the definition of machine to be "complex system" then lifeforms can be called machines. If you are going to define machines as "things built by people" then lifeforms are not machines (except for the bacteria that was built).

Right... those conditions in the lab were designed to mimic naturally occurring conditions, they can happen outside of the lab. And the conditions may have been impossible for sustaining human life... but there are many forms of life that are able to thrive in extreme conditions such as those generated in the lab.

Our "tinkering" mimics natural processes... there is no need for a human to be present for those conditions and reactions to have occurred.

Where exactly? If Science is moving on then why is so much attention being focused on abiogenesis? Science is moving on, and it has long ago passed the need for an unprovable supernatural entity to account for anything.

The only ones falling behind are those clinging to theistic explanations.

Joseph Wales's picture

If that is so

Then why haven't you observed, in your entire life, a rock turn into a hummingbird by accident?

My point is that, right now, designers and engineers are doing the things you erroneously claim happened accidentally.

You cling to every falsehood and hoax, while real scientists are teaching rocks to fly.

MrBook's picture

turning

Actually a rock turning into a hummingbird would be evidence against evolution, not evidence for evolution.

You seem to be missing the point... those designers / engineers are just recreating conditions and then seeing what happens. They are confined by the properties of the universe.

How exactly are "real" scientists using Intelligent Design to teach "rocks to fly"?

Joseph Wales's picture

Didn't you know?

metal comes from the ground. I figured you would know that.

truth is, all the evolutionary biologists today have a big secret that they don't tell people like you.

But I'll tell you, because I like you.

Simple animals don't have enough genetic information in their cells to produce more complex ones. They never have.

A worm cannot grow legs, because it doesn't contain that information in it's cells. Mutation can only decrease information, it cannot create it.

You lost before you even started.

MrBook's picture

reproduce

They can add additional information through mutation (chromosomal merging and such).

so your base assertion is incorrect, organism can add additional information to their genetic code via mutation.

Joseph Wales's picture

That's funny.

It's funny when you lie.

MrBook's picture

lie

It is even funnier when you resort to calling me a liar after I catch you in a lie of your own... Or were you not aware of that requirement? If that is the case perhaps you should read up on evolution before trying to say what it does and does not claim.

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