Bishop Tobin Explains Kennedy Communion Issue to Bill O’Reilly
There was 180 degrees difference between Bill O'Reilly's interview with Bishop Tobin last night and Chris Matthews' disrespectful, aggressive, insulting filibuster the night before.
O'Reilly asked fair questions many would ask, and Bishop Tobin gave excellent responses.
As an aside, what a relief to hear the bishop clarify the Catholic Church's teaching on the death penalty, which I hear misspoken a lot.
Re: Matthews et al, Deal Hudson thinks Democrats are picking a fight with the bishops. Hudson drew attention to this quote by Bill Donohue of the Catholic League in a LifeSiteNews.com piece:
No non-Catholic would ever treat a bishop this way. But too many liberal Catholics, especially Irish Catholics, think they are exempt from the same standards of civility that apply to others. They are flatly wrong.
As a Protestant I agree with the 1st part of Donohue's statement.
And it is obvious liberal Catholics have no trouble expressing
hostility toward their Church's leaders and teachings. Of course. What
else should be expected? Their Church condemns various behaviors they
uphold, and they can't stand the guilt. They blame their Church when it
is really their own consciences they hate and are trying to eradicate.
I'm curious about the "Irish" Catholic part, though. Perhaps someone can explain.
Bishop Tobin Explains Kennedy Communion Issue to Bill O’Reilly
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Where does the line stop for Bishop Tobin?
Kudos to O'Reilly for bringing up Tobin's hypocrisy over the death penalty issue. The bishop's answers were extremely flimsy here.
Like O'Reilly, I'd also like to know where the line stops. What if you are a Catholic who believes that birth control is ok? What if you believe it helps prevent disease and ultimately save lives? Would Tobin rescind that individual's rights to receive Holy Communion in a church ?
If yes, then millions upon millions of Catholics are now ineligible for communion. Remember, using contraception is against the church's teaching and Tobin says "if you're a Catholic, live up to that faith and accept that faith."
If no, then why are you targeting Patrick Kennedy? Why is he a special target? Because he's high profile?
This is exactly why a separation of church and state is so vital in America.
- Vandal K
November 25, 2009 12:22PM
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OPINION:Bishop Tobin Explains Kennedy Communion Issue to Bill O’Reilly
The death penalty issue was not a hypocrisy of the bishop. The church has always taught that Abortion is not the same as the death penalty. Although the Bishop did not give a thorough explanation due to time contraints, he did the best he could with the time allowed.
The birth control is issue has been taught since birth control has been around. You are in a state of mortal sin if taking birth control. Sounds like you know this. If having promiscuous sex causes diseas, then maybe people should stop having sex outside of marriage . Pope Paul VI was very prophetic in his encyclical Humanae Vitae about what would happen if people started using birth control...Disease, divorece, etc... It is not the fault of using birth control, people just have no control of themselves. If you don't want a STD or don't want to get pregnant, then don't have sex...seems pretty logical to me.
Finally, he is not targetting Patrick Kennedy. The Bishop simply ask him not to receive Holy Communion because he is in a constant state of mortal sin. That is just following the rules of the church. Anyway, it was not the Bishop who brought this out into the public view for everyone to see. It was Kennedy. The Bishop has been speaking about this in private as it should be done.
Like he said, if people don't want to follow the rules then go find another religion . Don't try and change "The Church" to fit individual needs or desires. Every Bishop, Priest and deacon should be telling people not to take Holy communion if they are aware of thats person being in a state of mortal sin. This Bishop just had a backbone. Many priests don't wan't to upset the layity because they need them to contribute to the church.
I apologize if I come off rude or angry. I was igonrant of many of the rules of the Catholic church until recently. Now I have a much greater understanding and respect for the Church and its laws.
Peace be with you!
- joshg2000
November 25, 2009 4:10PM
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mortal sin if taking birth control
Good points. Thanks for responding. But I'm not sure how you can say that the "Bishop isn't targeting Patrick Kennedy." That's what this whole story is about, Joshg. He's going on Fox News -- on a very popular talk show -- and speaking out about Kennedy's faith and beliefs. This is no light matter. For the Bishop and Kennedy, we're talking about a man's eternal soul being on the line, right? If I'm not mistaken, those who commit mortal sins face permanent damnation.
So Bishop Tobin is absolutely singling him out, which is very, very dangerous -- and I think an invasion of Kennedy's private faith.
Because once you call out one Catholic-- you have to be consistent. As you yourself point out, those Catholics who are taking birth control -- or support the use of birth control -- are committing mortal sins.
If Bishop Tobin is indeed consistent in his beliefs he must now come and say: If you are committing a mortal sin, then you cannot be given communion.
And I ask you this: Why don't Bishops like Tobin speak out against conservatives like Mark Sanford when he commits adultery or others send young men off to die in war . What happened to Jesus' pacifist mantra of "turn the other cheek."
This is absolutely selective application by Tobin and he's created a situation where he'll be hypocritical if he doesn't carry out this "No Communion" declaration for one and all who aren't in line with Catholic teachings.
- Vandal K
November 25, 2009 4:52PM
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mortal sin if taking birth control
I am not really sure if the Bishop is targeting Kennedy. I can see what your saying, but the way I understand it is that the Bishop never wanted any of this publicized. He has asked Kennedy to stop receiving communion since 2007 and Kennedy is just now bringing it out into the public view. Here are some quotes from the Bishop that I found on this website.
"It turns out the Providence Journal story yesterday reporting that rebel Catholic pro-abort Rep. Patrick Kennedy had been barred by his bishop, Thomas Tobin, from receiving communion missed a key point: This happened back in 2007, and Kennedy is furthermore now embellishing.
Kennedy instigated a fight with his church a month ago on the issue of abortion in healthcare . Apparently in over his head now, Kennedy appears to be going for sympathy support by slipping private details and exaggerating claims.
The Journal quoted Kennedy as stating, "The bishop instructed me not to take Communion and said that he has instructed the diocesan priests not to give me Communion."
Again, Tobin's request came in the form of a letter - in 2007 - and was intended to be private. Kennedy's decision to disclose the correspondence can only be seen as self-serving, particularly in conjunction with exaggerations of its contents.
Furthermore, Kennedy has flouted his bishop's request and received communion anyway. According to the follow-up Providence Journal story:
... Tobin on Sunday disputed key details of... Kennedy's account of their 2007 communication about whether the congressman should take Communion, given his support for abortion rights.
The leader of RI's Catholics criticized the timing of Kennedy's decision to publicize what the bishop called a private, "pastoral" message. He termed "absolutely inaccurate" Kennedy's assertion that the bishop had instructed the priests of RI not to give him Communion....
"If I had told 300 priests of the diocese in any format not to give Communion to Kennedy or anybody else, you think that would have remained confidential?" Bishop Tobin asked.
Bishop Tobin spoke in an interview after Kennedy's assertion in The Providence Sunday Journal that the "bishop instructed me not to take Communion and said that he has instructed the diocesan priests not to give me Communion."
"If he took it as an instruction, so be it, but it was really a request," Bishop Tobin said upon releasing excerpts of a Feb. 21, 2007, letter to the RI Democrat. The bishop said he felt he had to comment on the letter because Kennedy had chosen to "break it open."
"My correspondence with him was nearly 4 years ago - and I think it's important to stress that - [and] was intended to be personal and confidential and pastoral," the bishop said. "It was never intended for the public domain."
Kennedy made his disclosure Friday, escalating a heated dispute with the bishop that began last month when the congressman assailed the Catholic stance on the abortion clauses in the health -care overhaul legislation pending before Congress. But Kennedy declined Friday to give any details of when or how the bishop had communicated his message about Communion. Kennedy has not answered telephone messages left Saturday and Sunday....
"I'm not picking on Patrick Kennedy," Bishop Tobin said. "I'm responding to things Patrick Kennedy has said" in recent weeks. "In each case," Bishop Tobin said, Kennedy "has started the dialogue and in each case I have responded to him."...
The Bishop is just responding to the attacks from Kennedy in my opinion. The Bishop has every right to tell him to stop taking communion if he is commiting a mortal sin. The Bishop has a duty to tell people to stop receiving communion if he knows the person is under mortal sin. Whether its adultery , murder ...whatever. But it should always be kept confidential...Kennedy is the one bringing it out. So I don't feel too sorry for the guy.
I guess the Bishops will have to start coming out and tell everyone that if there in mortal sin then they shouldn't be taking communion. The problem is that today's Catholics don't even know 5% of what the Church's teachings are...SAD! We were taught in 2nd grade that you can't take communion while having the stain of mortal sin on our souls. This is very basic elementary teaching. And the Catholic church has not been silent about its teachings on abortion.
I would say that we don't know if any Bishops or Priests have spoken out against other conservative politicians such as Mark Sanford . Maybe they did and they kept it confidential like tobin did with Kennedy. These things are supposed to public knowledge. Kennedy just wanted to cause trouble in my opinion.
Also, the Catholic church did condemn the war in Iraq. The Pope spoke out about it numerous times. There are exceptions to war though. To protect justice is a completely different story. To protect people who are under persecution. Even the apostles carried swords all the way up to when Jesus was captured .
- joshg2000
November 29, 2009 5:42PM
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To VandalK
Since I'm not a Catholic, can you please explain to me why using contraception would be a "mortal sin" (assuming the interpretation of such is:"punishable by death")? And does that "rule" also apply to men that make use of contraception (or encourage their partner to)?
Personally, I have a hard time believing that God would be SO Nit-PICKY about the "rules" (not believing that all that many of religions' rules come from God) after having sacraficed His only begotten Son for the sake/salvation of humanity. But perhaps that's just me.
- JBarnett
November 25, 2009 8:30PM
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Oops, Sorry Val!
I meant to direct my post to joshg2000.
(cause I know I probably come across sounding harsh)
- JBarnett
November 25, 2009 8:33PM
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To JBarnett
Hi JBarnett,
I appreciate your question and comments. I will first have to address one very important issue before getting to the contraception question, and that is the authority of the Catholic church .
This is a big can of worms so my short explanation will not provide you with all the details. But I hope you can see where I am coming from with the few references I provide.
First, as catholics we believe that we are the Church that Jesus started while here on earth. We believe that he gave Peter and the other 11 apostles the power and authority to continue his mission after he left. As a result the apostles had successors that they handed the authority on to others before they died and so on and so on. So we believe that Peter was the first pope and the other apostles the first bishops. So Bishop Tobin is a successor of one of the apostles...he probably knows which one I am guessing.
OK. I am going to briefly give a few scripture references out of many that are in the new testament that prove Jesus passes on his authority to the apostles. First Mt. 10:1,40. He is speaking to the apostles and says..."whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me".
Second Mt 16:18-19. He changes Simons name to Peter (Rock) and gives him the key to the kingdom on heaven. " And upon this rock I will build my church" .."Whatever you (Peter) bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven". Peter is the first Pope and we have had a successor from the beginning all the way up to Benedict VI. Then Mt. 18:15-18 Christ is talking about what to do when your brother sins...He says " if he refuses to listen them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him like a Gentile or a tax collector." He goes on to say to his apostles "whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven,whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven"
And there are many more references in scripture that talk about the authority of the apostles. Lk. 9:1, 10:19 Lk. 10:16 Eph 2:20
and more.
Anyway, the bishops in communion with the Pope are the teach authority of the Church and they are guided by the Holy Spirit...Christ told them that He would be with them until the end of time..Mt. 28:20.
OK...that was a lot to write about but it only scratches the surface.
Now for the contraception question. First I want to say that my wife and I were using contraception for ~7 years before our last child was born. But , since we have learned of the moral implications, we have confessed our sins to Christ and his church (through confession) and we have now, by the grace of God, have been off ot it for a little over a year.
The Church teaches that it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life. This doctrine is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inheritent to the marriage act.
Methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education oa an authentic freedom. In contrast, every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible is intrinsically evil. Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other.
So the church, through the authority of the Pope and Bishops, have declared the use of contraception a grave sin. If contraception was around when Jesus was here then he surely would have addressed the issue.
So, its not about creating Nit-PICKY rules...its about following the teachings of Christ which was handed down by the apostles.
And yes it applies to men and women who make use of it or encourage its use. But the Church also teaches that a Mortal sin can only be mortal if the person knows that it is a grave sin and commits it anyway. Basically a complete rejection of God's law .
Hope this helps and sorry for the lengthy post.
God Bless!!!
- joshg2000
November 25, 2009 10:45PM
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No not really....
I'm sorry Josh, your explanation doesn't "help". So I guess it's a very good thing that I wasn't born into a Catholic family. I answer directly to the Trinity, and if I'm displeasing Them, I'm sure They'll let me know.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, fore whosoever believeth in Him shall not parish, but have everlasting life"
I think I'll continue basing my life on that verse and the Ten Commandments.
And before you quote "Thou Shalt Not Kill", I realize that commandment again opens up another "big can of worms".
Safe journey on your walk......
- JBarnett
November 30, 2009 7:42PM
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There is no evidence for any gods
Anything not supported by verifiable and falsifiable evidence is simply plain superstition and that includes all religions who are all man-made. The fact that some were made a couple of thousand years ago and others - like scientology - were made by humans more recently makes no difference.
The existence of gods is just as extremely unlikely as pink unicorns, tooth fairies, and has the same extremely low credibility as alchemy and astrology.
It is more intellectually honest to simply state that there are certain things we don't know yet but that we are searching for answers than to label everything we don't know god .
It is also clear that morality (the golden rule) precedes any religion by millions and millions of years. The moral zeitgeist keeps evolving despite religions. All holy books clearly describe things we now consider immoral such as slavery and many religions are still engaged in a bigger fight against same sex marriage , euthanasia , contraception, condoms , the right to chose, ...
Religions have no credibility and the catholic church in particular has - as a bastion of pedophilia and the driving force behind the anti-condom movement in Africa which causes 1.6 million HIV deaths per year - no credibility left whatsoever.
Although mankind must keep up the fight against all superstitions, everyone has the right to believe in any nonsense they want AS LONG AS ORGANIZED SUPERSTITION DOES NOT IMPOSE ITS SUPERSTITION ON SOCIETY.
Having said that, Mr. Kennedy could have announced that it is a great honor to be excommunicated by the catholic church and that he will not bow to the pressure of any superstition.
The fact that this the catholic church vs Kennedy is even a topic of debate shows who gullible the population at large still is. However, that too will pass but probably not in our lifetime.
- gma
December 3, 2009 10:06PM
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There is no evidence for any gods
Well everyone is entitled to there opinion. But the Bible is not just superstition, it is history. It is not just made up stories. Jesus Christ was a real man. Also, the new testament of the bible is the most well conserved writings in history. Out of 40,000 + lines of text, only 25 lines do not agree with all of the hundreds of copies of writings that were found in history. So that is real substantial evidence. Not to mention all of the scientific research that has been done to support many of the people, places and stories in the bible.
I am not sure if there is really any evidence that morality has been around far earlier than religion . Maybe you have some of that scientific evidence for that which you could share.
Out of all the religions, the Catholic church has the most credibility. I know that 1-1.5% of the priestly population has been accused of peophilia, but that should not be reason for persecution of the whole church. Its amazing that there are far more sexual abuse incidents reported from protestant denominations every year but you never seem to hear about those.
Just for your information, the Catholic church built western civilization. It was also responsible for developing the scientific method which is the body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.
I believe that you and the whole world owe much more to the Catholic church than I am sure you realize.
- joshg2000
December 3, 2009 10:23PM
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Critical thinking developed despite religion
You would do well reading Bart Ehrman's books. There are more differences between the different copies we have of the bible than there are words in the bible and the oldest piece of gospel we have dates from the first half of the second century and is no larger than the size of a credit card . It is proof that fiction can get a life of its own. Think about the book of mormons, scientology , ... All of equal credibility as the bible.
I agree that we should thank pope urban for putting Galileo under house arrest since that caused a lot of scientists to start thinking for themselves instead of being told what to think.
The vatican is very happy that only a small percentage of priest have molested children . I call that marketing spin. It is disgusting that it is any higher than 0 and pointing to other religions who are equally bad does not change that.
The fact that US bishops lobby against health care reform is further proof that religion is not only bad for the health of all its believers but for everyone else.
- gma
December 4, 2009 12:44AM
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