Should We Keep Pets?

Do you remember your first dog or cat? Perhaps even your first boa constrictor? Whatever your preference, pets can play a huge role in our lives, even becoming full-fledged family members. But is domestication really in an animal’s best interest? Does pet ownership create a loving bond between human and animal, or does it only serve our own interests?

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Regarding Objection

HSUS Misses the Point

- From Gary L Francione

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Statement with no basis in fact?

Gary L. Francione stated:
"Although some people treat their animals well, many more do not."

On what is this statement based? I am not aware of any studies that have been done to determine this. Would such studies even be feasible?

Is there any way that such information could be garnered about what happens in "most" pet homes?

Sounds to me like something that would require omniscience on the part of the author.

Call me doubtful...

- magicmistic April 21, 2009 6:11AM

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- Millions of Pets are Killed in Shelters
  
  Hello MagicMystic,
  
  Watch the film Earthlings to find out the statistics and facts in the first section of the film about pets . Millions of pets are killed in animal "shelters" just in the US alone. This should give you some indication about how uncaring pet owners are. HALF of them are turned in by their own owners. A third of them are pedigree animals . Only 85% of the pets in shelters are rehomed, the majority are killed.
  
  Most pets who are abused by their owners would go unreported and unoticed behind closed doors. Even the ones who are reported and get to trial, get let off with a small fine. There is very little protection for companion animals and they have no basic rights. The anti-cruelty laws are there to protect property rights as animal rights do not exist. Anti-cruelty laws only apply to companion animals and not food animals or science animals.
  
  www.earthlings.com
  
  - Desert Girl June 13, 2009 11:48AM
  
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  - Re: Millions of pets are killed in shelters
    
    Okay, Desert Girl. I watched the film. Of course, it is a tearjerker. It's full of graphic images meant to elicit an emotional response. But there were no stats that I heard about pets in that film. In fact, I didn't hear any stats in the film --- just emotional narrative pleas.
    
    As for the stat you mentioned, Desert Girl, about only 85% of pets in shelters being rehomed, while the "majority" are killed --- I must ask where you learned math. If 85% of the pets in shelters are adopted, that is a clear majority. Politicians would love to have such a majority on the ballot!
    
    But let's get back to the actual question we were discussing, which was whether or not most humans treat their pets well. This film does not address that. Most of the images were showing the processing of animals as food , not pets in homes.
    
    As far as euthanasia statistics in shelters, those numbers include all animals euthanized. That means not only animals impounded as strays who don't find adoptive homes, but also feral cats, animals who come into the shelter very ill or wounded and in need of immediate euthanasia (as the kind choice). Also in those stats are, as you suggest Desert Girl, pets whose owners bring them in for euthanasia.
    
    I will give your argument the benefit of the doubt in that there are some folks out there who probably do have healthy animals put down, for whatever reason. Perhaps they don't know there could be a better choice. But there are also folks who have their elderly, infirm animals euthanized at shelters as the kind choice. They do it to allow them to end their lives before they have a poor quality of life...so they are not lingering on in a life full of pain.
    
    When your pets become elderly, what do you do? If they have a medical problem which is an end of life issue, and can't be solved, do you make the difficult decision to let them go...even though you would prefer they are with you forever? Or do you let them linger on, suffering?
    
    As for me and my pets, I would make the difficult but loving decision.
    
    That is the opposite of cruelty. It is the opposite of uncaring.
    
    You also stated: "Most pets who are abused by their owners would go unreported and unoticed (sic) behind closed doors."
    
    Once again, you are making a very broad assumption. You pretend to know what goes on in "most homes," just as the original author who made that statement did.
    
    You do not know what goes on in "most homes." Why do you assume it is evil? Why not assume most pet owners treat their pets well? It is no greater a leap to do so than to assume the opposite.
    
    The fact is, though, that you cannot support either view with any evidence. You and the original author are just making it up, knowing that some folks won't think about your argument critically.
    
    I'm going to get off this silly machine now and go play with my pups. They need a hug, and so do I after indulging in an argument with no basis in fact. *sigh*
    
    - magicmistic June 13, 2009 4:45PM
    
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    - Most Shelter Killings Are on Healthy Animals
      
      Most of the animals killed in shelters are perfectly healthy animals. Many of them are adoptable. Half of them are turned in by their owners healthy. Some of them are strays too, but I don't agree with killing any of them no matter what their back ground. There is a humane solution to this put forward by Alley Cat Allies called TNR (Trap Neuter Return) and is proved to be more effective at animal control than the traditional method of killing them, letting them repopulate, kill them, repopulate, kill, etc.
      
      I am in full support of euthanasia for both non-human animals and human animals. But strictly for the very sick incurable and suffering. If euthanasia is carried out on healthy people or animals, it is no longer called euthanasia, it is called murder ! That's exactly what it is!
      
      While we literally murder millions of HEALTHY cats and dogs every year, we keep producing them at the other end of the conveyor belt by breeders, puppy mills, back yard breeders, accidental pregnancies and strays, all the while blaming the mass deaths on "irresponsible pet owners". No. WE must take responsibility and stop breeding them. Stop purchasing them. Stop killing them.
      
      - Desert Girl June 13, 2009 10:41PM
      
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      - Many statements, no facts
        
        It is easy, Desert Girl, to make all these statements you make. You and Mr. Francione can reel off rhetoric until the proverbial cows come home. Yet you provide no proof of your statements. Show us where you get your numbers and "facts" if you wish to make your case.
        
        Here's one for you: shelter statistics are hugely variable in their accuracy. There are no reporting standards that apply from one locale to another. Thus, where are you coming up with all these statements that you propose to be factual? You speak as if they are proven, but they are not.
        
        Either you are repeating the same words some other person has spouted before you, or you are making them up yourself.
        
        You still present no reliable evidence, either way.
        
        For what it is worth, I am in favor of TNR as well as Nathan Winograd's "no kill" movement. I support Bill Bruce's shelter management model.
        
        Unfortunately, the HSUS and PeTA and the like are not in favor of these. They are fighting these programs tooth and nail. They are pushing legislation all across the United States this year that will cause increases in the euthanization of many adoptable animals .
        
        - magicmistic June 13, 2009 11:09PM
        
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        References Please!
        
        Hi Magic! You rightly request references of which I do not have. I am renowned for remembering facts and statistics in my own head. I thought I got them from watching the pet section in Earthlings which I mentioned to you. I could have sworn it was in there. Earthlings is not something I want to watch again!!! I am sorry I don't have the references for you and you deserve them. Really I should arm myself with the reliable references and not just count on what I remember! Cannot help u there, but I'm sure there's a good source of it somewhere. Gary on the other hand, unlike me, would have an excellent source of references available for his facts.
        
        Putting this aside, I believe it is irrelevant how many millions of animals are killed in shelters as just one death matters. I also believe it is irrelevant how many pets are loved and how many are abused. One case of abuse matters. The fact that many pets are abused is not my reasoning for the case against pet ownership . As I said before, I do not take issue with how well pets are treated, I don't think we should be keeping pets in the first place. Why? For the very same reasons we wouldn't keep pet humans.
        
        - Desert Girl June 14, 2009 2:38AM
        
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    - Treated Well? Or Not Treated At All?
      
      I can only go by what I HAVE seen -I have witnessed pet cruelty before. Luckily most of the people I know are decent people and treat their animals well. Many of the abused animals are from people in poor socio-economic standards. My uncle was the president of the RSPCA for a very long time so this is where I have got my information from in regards to animals being mistreated. Also I get my facts from the statistics of animals being turned in at shelters. Millions of them are given up for reaons of inconvenience or disinterest or expense by their owners to shelters where they will be destroyed. Millions of people is not a small number to me. These are the REPORTED statistics, so the unreported statistics would naturally be higher. Even in homes that are wealthy, because animals are lower class, they can get mistreated (like being kicked or locked up, chained up, not walked, etc).
      
      Putting aside the abused pets , the very best treated animals are still getting the short straw because they are our property. We would never treat humans in the way our very best treated pets are treated. We never take away babies from their mothers do we? But we do this routinely to cats and dogs -take their babies. The very best treated pets cannot choose their social life, see relatives, go out whenever they choose as a wild animal can. The very best treated pets have been denied the most basic rights that we enjoy as humans -the right to life, to liberty and to happiness. Legally we can kill our healthy pet without needing a reason at all -and this DOES happen in the millions. Although mostly happy in our homes, our pets are under permanent "house arrest" and cannot make any meaningful decisions on their own that they could if they were wild. They are forced to live as if they were children even though they are fully grown adults. They are utterly dependent on us for food , water and affection. Many well treated pets must go without affection and attention when the owners are too busy or have children.
      
      I am not taking issue to whether or not pets are mistreated. I am taking issue with the fact that they are treated at all. We should not own pets any more than we should own slaves. A happy slave is still a slave! (and has no rights).
      
      So sweetheart, I'm not making it up. On the contrary, I feast on facts and statistics. It's what keeps me going. The author of this argument is probably the most educated professor on the subject of animal rights in the whole world. He knows his facts. He has worked on many animal cases and is aware of all the latest stats.
      
      - Desert Girl June 13, 2009 10:55PM
      
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      - Do you own pets?
        
        So, do you, Desert Girl?
        
        - magicmistic June 13, 2009 10:59PM
        
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        Obliged to Care for the Pets Who Already Exist
        
        Yes I live with 2 husky dogs. Technically speaking I own them. I got them before I got an education about animal rights . So I contributed to the pet trade and all the misery that ends up at the other end (unwanted pregnancies & death in a pound) by purchasing. Only until recently I was clueless about the issue holding all the usual common beliefs we have about animals . I used to believe it was natural for us to live with dogs and cats and that it was some divine and beautiful symbiotic relationship. I don't believe that anymore after looking at the facts and a few passionate arguments with an educated animal rights activist (I strongly resisted the idea that pets are slaves!). I read a short book called The Dreaded Comparison- Human and Animal Slavery.
        
        I am obliged to care for the animals I have. I will never purchase a pet again, just as I would never purchase a slave! If I ever want a dog again I will be sure to rescue one from a shelter and desex.
        
        - Desert Girl June 14, 2009 2:29AM
        
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    - Earthlings Discussion Board
      
      Would you write about your experience of watching the film Earthlings on the discussion board? Plus any objections you have about it like what you wrote above?
      
      http://www.earthlings.com/discussion-board/so-you-saw-earthlings.php
      
      - Desert Girl June 13, 2009 11:00PM
      
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      - Re: Earthlings Discussion Board
        
        Hi Desert Girl,
        
        I went to the board and read a few of the comments. Based on a couple of those, as well as something you said in a previous post here, I suspect I saw only part of this Earthlings flick. I saw nothing at the beginning that went into any depth about pets . As I've mentioned before, the bulk of it was images of food animals being processed while a narrator speaks about King Lear and Gloucester, etc.
        
        I would like to comment as you suggest, but I think it would be better for me to do so only after seeing the "full" version of the film, if I can find it.
        
        - magicmistic June 13, 2009 11:31PM
        
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        Watching Earthlings
        
        You can purchase the dvd from the site I gave you. You probably only watched the trailer. You can watch the full film online at this site for $2.50 or something. Otherwise you can watch it for free at a couple of other websites like Youtube and free film (or whatever it's called).
        
        Warning- it is extremely difficulty to watch the whole film, but worth it to extract the truth! I have a very hard time convincing anybody to watch this movie!
        
        - Desert Girl June 14, 2009 2:42AM
        
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        Re: Watching Earthlings
        
        I am sure it is hard to watch. The trailer gives an idea of that. But I won't shy away from being open to other viewpoints, even though I can see the agenda. I will watch it as soon as I get back from a trip I am leaving on tomorrow. Thank you for explaining the trailer situation.
        
        - magicmistic June 14, 2009 5:49AM
        
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        More comments in this thread
  - 85% of the shelter animals are killed
    
    Whoops! Correction! I was tired...
    
    85% of the shelter animals are killed. Only about 15% find homes. Making the vast majority of shelter and pound animals the ones that get killed.
    
    In my small town of 28,000 people, 30 cats and kittens are killed every week at the local RSPCA while only one or two are adopted. Similar figures exist for dogs.
    
    - Desert Girl June 13, 2009 10:32PM
    
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    - Okay, I understand
      
      Hey, Desert Girl, that's cool. I get it that we all make errors, especially when we are tired.
      
      Still, 85% is a statistic found --- where? Only in your town?
      
      If so, I am sorry to hear about the way your shelter is apparently being managed. There are better ways.
      
      You state the 85% number as though it applies to all shelters everywhere. That statement is unsupportable, as far as I can find.
      
      For example, the "shelter" run by PeTA in Virginia actually has a kill rate of closer to 97%.
      
      According to CCF Director of Research David Martosko:
      
      "An official report filed by PETA itself shows that the animal rights group put to death nearly every dog, cat, and other pet it took in for adoption in 2006. During that year, the well-known animal rights group managed to find adoptive homes for just 12 animals . Not counting pets brought to PETA for spaying or neutering, the organization killed 2,981 of the 3,061 “companion animals” it took in. According to VDACS (Virginia's Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services), the average euthanasia rate for humane societies in Virginia was 34.7 percent in 2006. PETA's "kill rate" was 97.4 percent."
      
      In stark contrast to PeTA's statistics, the city of Calgary, Alberta, Canada has nearly the opposite rates:
      
      "Through outreach, licensing discounts for altered pets, and appropriate enforcement of licensing and nuisance provisions, Calgary has increased licensure compliance to 93%, increased its return-to-owner rate to 88%, and reduced dog bites and shelter intakes. Its canine euthanasia rate is now 6%, and confined to dogs with significant health or behavioral issues!"
      
      So please let us know, DG, where does the 85% figure come from? To what program(s) does it apply? It is a specious argument to put that number out there, implying that it applies to all programs everywhere.
      
      Once again, I am 100% with you on the desire to avoid killing healthy animals in shelter situations. To that end, I am involved with a rescue group. We pull dogs from shelters and get them into new, loving homes --- thus taking some of the burden away from shelter personnel and giving more dogs a chance at avoiding that needle.
      
      I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the entire question of keeping pets. I am for it and I don't see that changing. But as far as answers for preventing cruelty and unnecessary killing is concerned, we can continue debating it.
      
      I believe there are answers. Folks need to be willing to open up their eyes and ears and look at all sides, see real facts, not just stay open to the one viewpoint with which they have currently aligned themselves.
      
      *****
      
      ***
      
      *
      
      - magicmistic June 14, 2009 12:20AM
      
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      - He's a Member of Our Own Family
        
        Yes u r totally right, statistics vary where ever u go. I know they change all the time in my town. The 85% pets killed in shelters was an AVERAGE of the united states. Even that would go up and down year after year. I heard about the boom in unwanted pets since the housing crisis in US as one example. We would never give up our children in a time of crisis, so much for pets being like "members of our own family" -yeah when it's convenient!!!
        
        I'm certain the source of it was in the narration of Earthlings. But maybe it wasn't. I have nothing on hand as to where it came from. You were pretty good at digging up some stats yourself. It was these stats that I used as my main reason for demonstrating that a large number of people are irresponsible in caring for their pets (and the litters of unplanned pregnancies) because they ended up on the streets and in shelters. This is proof enough. Millions is a big number.
        
        Most people are welfarists. If you are interested in at least hearing the rights perspective for animals , feel free to read the blogs, FAQ and listen to the radio podcasts, and watch the short video presentations on my favourite website www.abolitionistapproach.com
        
        Have a good trip away.
        
        DG
        
        - Desert Girl June 14, 2009 7:41AM
        
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        Housing Crisis
        
        Hi Desert Girl
        
        I've read many of your posts and I think that you are coming from a good point of view mostly of which I agree with, as a vegan and abolitionsit. However some of your comments perhaps need a bit more thought, like the one above about the housing crisis.
        
        The housing crisis means people are becoming homeless and having to live in their cars , on the street or in motels. Most people in that position have no choice but to relinquish the animals they previously shared a home with.
        
        Perhaps you were thinking of the Financial Crisis? I do remember seeing a news piece about people leaving their ' pets ' at shelters because they felt that they were a luxury they could no longer afford, which really put my teeth on edge. Of course for others it might be a choice between eating or feeding the cat, who knows?
        
        I think we have to be careful not appear to only have empathy for animals and not humans - this is something we in the animal rights movement are often accused of. I myself am a vegan human rights activist first and foremost, but I support and volunteer at animal rights organisations when I am able.
        
        Btw are u in Australia? There is a little Australian flag or is it New Zealand that pops up every time you make a post, but I thought you said you were in the States.
        
        I'm in Australia myself.
        
        - Trish108 October 28, 2009 3:25AM
        
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        Fellow Aussie!
        
        Hey Trish! Well don't we have a lot in common? Vegan, abolitionist, critical thinking, activists, forum posters, animal rights , human rights (isn't that a given?) AND Australian! I'm from the very middle if u want to know where.
        
        For a time there was news reporting a housing crisis in the US and also Australia. People from RSPCA reported increased animals entering the "shelters". Now as you describe, there would certainly be (some) extreme examples of people sleeping in their cars , relatives houses, motels, or even camping/streets, hopefully temporarily. But that would be only a few people. For the most part housing in general would become unaffordable/very expensive, more difficult to find accommodation, lots of people applying to rent but not enough supply, all the while these people must continue living at their current residence, delay selling or moving, or rent temporary accommodation until accommodatation becomes available. We're having somewhat of a housing crisis in my own town, but I wouldn't call it desperate.
        
        Some no-kill shelters have reported to only accept pets given up by their owners if they can prove they are in a true financial or health crisis. The vast majority of people who give up their pets to the pound are not in true crisis -inconvenience maybe. No thought for the life of the cat is given when a couple buy her later to be given up when they become pregnant/move house /get a new job, etc. The cat is like a dvd player.
        
        I have many postings at the Earthlings ( film ) forum. It's a perfect place to communicate with people who have just watched the film and have been shocked and moved by it. They come very ready to hear the vegan message and engage in thoughtful debate. I don't go there very much anymore, but there's certainly plenty of evidence that I've been there! www.earthlings.com
        
        Cheers,
        
        DG
        
        - Desert Girl November 16, 2009 6:09AM
        
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Related Debates

Experts on "Yes" Side

The Humane Society
Celebrating Animals/Confronting Cruelty See arguments

Experts on "No" Side

Gary L Francione
Rutgers University School of Law See arguments

Most Objections

Should We Have Pets? Of Course
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