Should Loaded and Concealed Guns be Allowed in National Parks?
On May 20, 2009, Congress overwhelmingly voted to allow loaded and concealed weapons into national parks, reversing a Reagan-era rule that allowed registered gun owners to carry only non-concealed, unloaded weapons. While gun rights groups have hailed the decision many gun prevention activists say that national parks just got more dangerous. Should loaded and concealed weapons be allowed in America's parks?








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On the fence
You make a good point, but I can't say I totally agree with it. I can see both sides of this argument. The problem I see is that addicts will still engage in illegal behavior to obtain their drugs. On the other hand, they're only that expensive because they're illegal. On the other hand, Portugal still made it illegal to sell, so the prices won't necessarily drop because there is still risk in selling them.
I personally have never partaken in the use of illegal drugs, and I am against them because of what they do to people's lives, and more importantly, what they do to the lives of their families, especially children . But if you want to engage in self-destructive behavior and ruin your own life, that just makes more room for the rest of us. Of course, then we will end up paying to fix your screwed up life in the form of higher taxes . Because you know once the government advocates drug use , they will be responsible for treating you as a result of your inability to control your own life.
- LagerHead
June 22, 2009 2:32PM
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Nope.
"The problem I see is that addicts will still engage in illegal behavior to obtain their drugs. "
The data just doesn't support that claim. With possession being legal proving sale becomes next to impossible. And with all the obvious benefits Portugal is experiencing I'd say the priority on the enforcement of anti sales law is diminished except in the highest of traffickers, and I assure you this will reflect in the street price.
There is just no objective view of the cessation of prohibition which can be called negative, just like the gun law issue. The only people that say otherwise are the ignorant and the vested.. It truly is that simple given current circumstances..
Addicts often commit crime because they are barred access to the job market. In America you virtually can't get a non wage slavery job without peeing in a cup. In a community where drug possession and therefor use is legal, drug testing should go down, and as it does the entry of functional addicts into the market will occur. Opening the door to a whole class of workers who spend their money on heroin instead of WoW and still show up to work on time.
The drug market is a truly free market, and as such it reacts with lightning speed.
"I am against them because of what they do to people's lives"
Drugs themselves actually do very little harm, especially compared to things like HFCS, fat, or cars .
It's drug policy that destroys lives. The drug problem is a healthcare issue, not a law enforcement one. It's like trying to arrest and jail cancer .
The drug war makes it impossible to get treatment, it forces addicts to live off grid, creating a self fulfilling prophecy. Of course addicts steal, once they are an addict we won't let them work!
It creates a criminal enterprise that results in the utter destruction of communities. It's also hypocritical. We are a drug saturated society . The pharmaceutical industry is the most profitable one in America. This duplicity causes a fundamental distrust and hatred of the government who's cost alone cannot be calculated. And again, self fulling prophecy, when they in turn show a total lack of respect for authority we say the drugs did it, when in fact WE did it.
Heroin used to be sold over the counter, some estimates place functional addiction in America almost to the one third mark at it's peak. Society's chief problem at the time? The stock market. Not street crime, not an army of addicted zombies living off government and outs, but upper class suits making margin calls and leading us into a depression on completely false claims.
All the other drugs are a function of the drug war as well to one degree or another, as dealers sought to increase their profit per pound/gram/ton and set about refining their drugs. Meth as a street drug is a synthetic substitute for coca plain and simple. It exists almost solely because it can be produced in street labs.
"they will be responsible for treating you as a result of your inability to control your own life. "
Nothing could be further from the truth. Look how well the government handles the poverty and homelessness epidemics. Not to mention mental health care which is related to both. The number of homeless people who are mentally ill is staggering.
America has a long history of ignoring those in need, why should addicts be any different?
This image of the nanny state is largely a myth perpetrated by the right in order to preserve their own ill gotten gains. By every objective relative measure the funding spent by the United States on aid to it's own citizens is abysmally small. If one were to judge our compassion based on those figures one would conclude we are a society with the moral fortitude of Ted Bundy.
It is a classic example of swallow an elephant choke on a gnat. The drug war directly costs nearly 2000$ per second. A typical food stamp card costs 134$ a month. The myth of the nanny state is smoke and mirrors. The typical upper class American could not survive without the state regulating their business competition out of existence, and subsidizing their failures. (AIG anyone?)
And on a purely practical note no policy change is painless. The art of state craft is the trade of 2 units of pain for 1 unit of pain.
Given the untold billions in direct and indirect savings coupled with the increased productivity unquestionably associated with the termination of the drug war, the problems you describe even if they themselves were taken completely without argument would be a paltry annoyance compared to the utter human catastrophe drug policy is in America today.
Indeed I believe the gains would be so excessive that they would in turn pay for any sort of short comings.
But really do NOT trust me, go look into it. There are mountains of studies on each subject.
I hope this was food for thought :)
- Innomen
June 22, 2009 4:11PM
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Still on the fence, but a couple of counterpoints
"Addicts often commit crime because they are barred access to the job market."
I don't see how this will change. You can be denied access to the job market for reasons other than illegal activity. For example, my last 5 or 6 jobs required a credit check. So while it's not illegal to have bad credit or file for bankruptcy , I could have been denied a job based on it. I certainly would not hire someone who tested positive for heroin, or even marijuana . Plain and simple, drug use is a poor decision, and I don't want people working for me who have poor decision making abilities.
"It's drug policy that destroys lives. The drug problem is a healthcare issue, not a law enforcement one. It's like trying to arrest and jail cancer . "
Come on, that's a stretch. I have a cousin who is married to a guy who takes meth. Paranoia is a well known side effect of meth use. Because of his paranoia, a recent family reunion was interrupted, or some might say ruined, because of his repeated calls, day and night, to check up on her. He called her phone, two of my aunts' phones, and her mother's phone. This not only stressed her out, it caused her children to be visibly depressed, leaving them in tears, and caused her mother, to become near hysterical. So are you really going to insist that drug use is a victimless crime? I don't think you'd find very many reputable sources that would say that.
"Heroin used to be sold over the counter, some estimates place functional addiction in America almost to the one third mark at it's peak. Society's chief problem at the time? The stock market." What time was this, and what evidence supports it? I mean, one third seems like an awfully high number. Alcohol is perfectly legal now, and so are cigarettes . But combined the percent of people addicted to these two substances doesn't equal 1/3. I couldn't find alcohol addiction alone, but best estimates for cigarettes, drugs, and alcohol combined is about 73 million people in the U.S., or about 20%. And " society 's chief problem" is a subjective statement, and therefore pretty difficult to quantify.
"The number of homeless people who are mentally ill is staggering."
Again, a subjective statement, but only about 1% of Americans are homeless for an extended period of time, with about 40-45% of those being considered mentally ill. While that number is sad, I'd be hard pressed to call it staggering.
"This image of the nanny state is largely a myth perpetrated by the right in order to preserve their own ill gotten gains."
Again, can you quantify this statement? And I'm a conservative. How exactly are my gains "ill gotten." I have worked my tail off just to reach middle class, and I have done it without infringing on the rights or walking on anyone to get where I am. And I have lived well below the poverty line, and it was nobody's fault but mine. And don't forget that there are plenty of people on the left who are obscenely wealthy. Are their gains ill gotten? That statement reeks of elitism and is a disgusting generalization, in my opinion.
"The typical upper class American could not survive without the state regulating their business competition out of existence, and subsidizing their failures. (AIG anyone?)"
While I am certainly not a part of the group to which you point in this statement, I think you are vilifying unjustly an entire group of people. If you had used a racial segment of the population, this would be called racism . Depending on what you call "upper class" I don't think that statement would hold water either. And I won't even begin to debate what the cause of the financial market collapse was, so don't waste your time trying to bait me into that one. ;-)
Oh, and I forgot this one: "Opening the door to a whole class of workers who spend their money on heroin instead of WoW and still show up to work on time."
Seriously? Really? You honestly think that a heroin addict would show up to work on time? Really? I mean that statement damn near leaves me speechless. If anything I said was questionable, that statement is outright pot-of-gold-at-the-end-of-the-rainbow fantasy. I seriously hope you didn't type that with a straight face.
Again, I'm still on the fence, and that was food for thought, but much of what you said is subjective at best, and pure opinion at worst. Like I said before, if you want to destroy your life, go right ahead. Just don't drag me, or any other innocent person down with you.
- LagerHead
June 22, 2009 5:39PM
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I have nothing to add.
You've made no arguments. You've simply restated your previous opinions. Your logic is spurious and you evidence anecdotal. You are hip deep in self serving Horatio Alger mythology designed expressly to absolve you of the responsibility of helping your fellow man.
May I suggest you start with "A People's History of the United States." by Howard Zinn
Besides a drug war debate with you in the comments on a gun issue is pointless as you won't be convinced, and very few people interested will see it.
Like I said, you shouldn't trust me, go read the relevant studies and history. I know you won't even look you'll just pat yourself on the head and type some more Ad Hominem.
Your snide and insulting incredulity at what I know are established well documented facts of history says it all. I will no longer be responding to you, or anyone else on the subject of drug law in this thread, we've gone too far off topic already. After decades on the Internet, I know an intractable zealot when I see one.
I'm glad you enjoyed writing that post, and if you choose to take the last word and make an argument to which I will not respond I hope you enjoy that as well.
- Innomen
June 22, 2009 7:11PM
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Thank you, I will take the last word.
You know, I was trying to keep it civil. But your "last" post proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are the type of liberal that gives all liberals a bad name. You haven't presented any facts. I have presented several. You haven't refuted a single one with anything but emotional tripe. And you're calling ME an "intractable zealot?" I asked nicely for you to present the statistics, studies, facts, anything. But you instead resorted to name calling and insults.
And while I may pick up the book you suggest, don't think that I will do it blindly. I am sure it is a completely one-sided presentation of "facts." So I will also pick up a book that presents the other side. Something I am sure you haven't done in your lifetime.
And as for your comment about absolving me of helping my fellow man: that is the most sanctimonious piece of crap I have read today. You don't know me. You know nothing about me. You have no idea how many hours of my time and how much of my own money I have donated to charities, so don't even presume to lecture me, you twit.
You're pathetic. I hope you know that. You are exactly what Reagan was talking about when he said, "[...]the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
And the title of your last post was absolutely correct. You have nothing to add . You've never had anything to add. And I doubt you ever will have anything to add. When you do, we'll all be here waiting. And waiting.
- LagerHead
June 22, 2009 11:44PM
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