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Quickening and Just War Theory
more questions
"Human life does not begin until the two come together."
In your opinion.
Regarding the war in Iraq.
http://www.cjd.org/paper/jp2war.html
http://www.americancatholic.org/news/JustWar/iraq/papalstatement.asp
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0 ,2933,80875,00.html
"Just War theory because it acknowledged that under certain circumstances wars might have to be fought."
Any honest reading of the Just War theory makes it clear that Iraq is an unjust war.
"John Paul II stated as his own personal opinion, and expressly not as Church doctrine, that he did not believe the invasion of Iraq was justified."
And you believe that your opinion of the war from a Catholic perspective is more relevant than the Pope's? How does one distinguish the Pope's personal opinions from those that are binding? What makes them substantially different?
Let's throw out another comparison. Can a Catholic vote for a politician that supports the death penalty? Does the Church have an official stance on the death penalty?
Lastly, I don't think your comparison of 35 years of abortion to the deaths of a single war is relevant. You'd have to account for 35 years of war and more than just the deaths of a war. What about all the people that are maimed by war, all that have suffered greatly due to the war, what about all the children that were burned over their entire bodies from napalm but did not die.
I'm trying to understand the value of life from a Catholic perspective. Can you explain the way the heirarchy of sin is determined?
"Reasonable people could disagree as to when those circumstances existed, and Catholics have disagreed about the Iraq War. "
Isn't it also possible that reasonable people can disagree about when a life is a human life? clearly your statement about quickening reveals that the Church saw life before quickening as less than life after quickening!
Let's do a hypothetical. A building is on fire and you rush in to save anyone inside. At one end is an 8 year old girl and at the other end are 10 fertilized eggs (it's a fertility clinic). You only have time to save one or the other, do you save the girl or the 10 fertilized eggs?
In my mind it's clear that the eggs are not equivalent to the 8 year old girl
- reckoner
October 21, 2008 1:53PM
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Can Catholics Vote for a Pro-Choice Candidate
The purpose of this argument is to discuss whether a Catholic can vote for a pro-choice candidate. You apparently are not Catholic and do not agree with the Church's position on various issues. That is fine and your right, but we are straying far afield from the purpose of this discussion. My purpose here is to argue that Catholics cannot vote for Senator Obama with a clear conscience.
In any event, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has just released a statement at their website usccb.org that basically obliterates all of the justifications for the "Yes" position on this argument. I will be interested in seeing how the experts on that side explain the statement away.
I also think the statement by the bishops will answer some of your questions raised in your reply to me.
- BME
October 21, 2008 2:12PM
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understanding
it's true that I am not a Catholic (or Christian), but I'm making a sincere effort to understand your point of view. I apologize if my questions are difficult, but my intention is to understand The Catholic position. I'm a logician and I like to test the consistency of things.
Do Catholics really believe that 4 cells the size of a period at the end of this sentence are of equal stature to a living breathing 8 year old girl? Would they save 10 fertilized eggs over 1 girl if forced to choose?
Are Catholics consistently pro-life? If they can't vote for a pro-choice candidate then why can they vote for a pro death penalty candidate?
Maybe someone else can help me understand these questions if you find them too difficult or misunderstand my intentions.
- reckoner
October 21, 2008 3:15PM
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Understanding
I appreciate your desire to want to know more about Catholicism, but the point of this argument is to discuss whether Catholics can vote for a pro choice candidate. This is an important issue for Catholics and with the election only two weeks away, it should really be the focus of this discussion.
I would suggest you look at the statement I directed you to, and also look at the Bishops' Statement on Catholics and voting issued last November, which you can also find on the usccb.org website. If you really want to look into these various issues, catholicity.com has a summary of the Catholic Cathechism, which states the Church's teaching on these issues and can be searched by topic. If you are really ambitious, you can go to the Vatican website, vatican.va, and can search for the papal statements on these issues.
Finally, to answer your questions, the Church believes a person is a person from conception to natural death.
That being said, I would save the little girl and I think virtually every Catholic would as well. Your question is really a red herring in the abortion context because there we are not dealing with a situation like a fire that kills indiscriminately. We are talking about the intentional taking of the life of an innocent human being.
That leads to your final question on the death penalty. The Church opposes the death penalty except in cases where society cannot be protected in any other fashion. However, the death penalty does not rise to the level of abortion because in an abortion an innocent life is being taken. With the death penalty you are dealing with someone who took an innocent life.
- BME
October 21, 2008 3:49PM
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death by any other means
"Your question is really a red herring"
I do not believe it is a red herring. I'm pointing out that most people in their gut believe that a living breathing child is not equivalent to a fertilized egg. This is central to this question is it not?
Regarding the death penalty, I thought the Church's position was against the death penalty in nearly all cases. You say that the death penalty does not take innocent life, but that is not true. Mistakes are made as they are in all human institutions. This is one of the prime reasons that people cite against the death penalty. This is why I'm confused that a Catholic can vote for a supporter of the death penalty, but not a pro-choice candidate. It would seem that the Church is officially against both, and both take innocent lives. The death penalty even takes the lives of born and breathing people.
- reckoner
October 21, 2008 4:02PM
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death by any other means
The gut feeling that a living, breathing child is not equivalent to an unborn child does not logically lead to the conclusion that it is then okay to kill the unborn child.
Your question was a red herring because you are not addressing the issue raised by abortion. Your hypothetical framed the question as "Should you protect the 8-year old girl or the unborn children?" The question raised by abortion actually is, "Should you protect unborn children?" The choice is not between killing 8-year olds or killing unborn children. The unborn are the only ones killed by abortion.
With regard to the death penalty, I said that the Church only approves of it when there is no other way to protect society -- a standard that will rarely be met.
However, when you compare the numbers you see why the Church treats abortion as a greater evil. Since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976, there have been 1,119 executions in the United States. As I indicated in an earlier comment, since 1973 there have been approximately 50 million abortions in this country. In 2007 there were 42 executions and 1.2 million abortions.
The undisputed innocence of the victims of abortion (and you certainly cannot claim that the vast majority of people actually executed in this country were not guilty) combined with the overwhelming difference in the numbers of executions and abortions, fully justifies the Church treating abortion as a far greater evil.
- BME
October 22, 2008 6:34AM
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red herrings
The question raised by abortion actually is, "Should you protect unborn children?"
Exactly, you are conflating an 8 year old girl with a fertilized egg. I'm pointing that out and thus it is not a red herring. A fertilized egg is not a child equivalent to an 8 year old girl from a moral point of view or you would have to conclude that you would save the 10 fertilized eggs instead of the girl. You wouldn't which points out the flaw your use of the term child when asking the abortion question. It seems that your position on abortion is based on semantic misnomer. First, you assert equivalence between a fertilized egg and an 8 year old girl. Then when asked directly you say that they are not equivalent and get upset that I'm asking you.
"With regard to the death penalty, I said that the Church only approves of it when there is no other way to protect society -- a standard that will rarely be met."
This is not true. John Paul II wrote that execution is only appropriate "in cases of absolute necessity, in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today, however, as a result of steady immprovement in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."
How can a Catholic support a candidate that is pro death penalty given the Pope's statement above.
- reckoner
October 22, 2008 11:23AM
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