Does Intelligent Design Have Merit?

Does Intelligent Design Have Merit?

With about 70 billion stars and as many as 100 million life forms (at least here on Earth), the universe is a stunningly complex place. Did all of this matter evolve independently, or was it guided by a larger force – as proponents of intelligent design believe? With the debate raging in living rooms, classrooms and courtrooms, the stakes are high when it comes to determining intelligent design’s merit.

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Sorry about my prior views
  • PvM
    Meaning

    --I changed my mind and felt somewhat angry when I realized just what those early drafts meant:--

    You mean you accepted the attempt to reconcile the early drafts while ignoring the facts? Sadly you seem to have fallen victim of DI propaganda.


    --
    Let's hope they don't hate me for starting an IDEA center......
    --

    Of course, not IDEA centers may finally help ID become scientifically relevant, although so far nothing to suggest that this will happen

    - PvMUS September 20, 2008 11:16AM

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    • F2XL
      Reply

      "You mean you accepted the attempt to reconcile the early drafts while ignoring the facts? Sadly you seem to have fallen victim of DI propaganda."

      Nothing in the early drafts state that the "creator" was specifically god or anything supernatural, something the DI is already emphasizing on this site.

      "Of course, not IDEA centers may finally help ID become scientifically relevant, although so far nothing to suggest that this will happen"

      Not sure what you're saying, please rephrase.

      - F2XLUS September 20, 2008 11:46AM

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      • PvM
        Creationism

        --Nothing in the early drafts state that the "creator" was specifically god or anything supernatural, something the DI is already emphasizing on this site.
        --

        The term creation and creationists have very clear and religious meanings. Let's not pretend otherwise, the Court certainly did not buy this after the fact 'explanation'

        - PvMUS September 21, 2008 12:53PM

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        • F2XL
          No it isn't

          "The term creation and creationists have very clear and religious meanings."

          http://www.fteonline.com/pandas-creationism.html

          Check the actual context of those drafts. Did they actually use the term "creator" to specifically state God had to be directly implicated? So far all I can find says otherwise:

          It's not the same as the "watchmaker" argument:

          http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?command=download&id=795

          The drafts specifically state that while some master intellect is the "creator" behind life, it would be impossible to tell if the "creator" is natural or supernatural:

          http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?command=download&id=796

          Here's another passage which states that commenting on the supernatural has no place in science:

          http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?command=download&id=797

          If you could find passages in the early drafts of Pandas in which God is SPECIFICALLY implicated in the use of the term "creator" then I would be wrong. I have yet to find such a case.

          "Let's not pretend otherwise, the Court certainly did not buy this after the fact 'explanation'"

          They didn't buy it because they never got the chance to hear it:

          http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/11/was_justice_denied_to_foundati.html

          http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/08/justice_denied_foundation_for.html

          http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=3706&program=DI %20Main%20Page%20-%20News&callingPage=discoMainPage

          http://www.fteonline.com/aclu-dover.html

          - F2XLUS September 21, 2008 1:15PM

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          • PvM
            Why did you not look at the drafts?

            You argue, based on the FTE's claims that the term 'creation' and 'creationism' had nothing to do with religion.

            Now I understand why you want to rely on the DI and the FTE's claims but this means that you are shielded from the facts.

            As I said the term creation and creationism have clear meanings which help explain why the terms were quickly and abruptly changed after the Edwards ruling.

            Since you believe in design inferences, what inference is one but to make here.

            In addition you have fallen victim of the claim that just because the FTE was denied to be heard, that the argument was not heard.

            From the actual ruling

            --Judge Jones
            As Plaintiffs meticulously and effectively presented to the Court, Pandas went through many drafts, several of which were completed prior to and some after the Supreme Court's decision in Edwards , which held that the Constitution forbids teaching creationism as science. By comparing the pre and post Edwards drafts of Pandas, three astonishing points emerge: (1) the definition for creation science in early drafts is identical to the definition of ID; (2) cognates of the word creation (creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and (3) the changes occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that creation science is religious and cannot be taught in public school science classes in Edwards. ***This word substitution is telling, significant, and reveals that a purposeful change of words was effected without any corresponding change in content, which directly refutes FTE's argument that by merely disregarding the words "creation" and "creationism," FTE expressly rejected creationism in Pandas.*** In early pre-Edwards drafts of Pandas, the term "creation" was defined as "various forms of life that began abruptly through an intelligent agency with their distinctive features intact – fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc," the very same way in which ID is defined in the subsequent published versions. (P-560 at 210; P-1 at 2-13; P-562 at 2-14, P-652 at 2-15; P-6 at 99-100; P-11 at 99-100; P-856.2.). This definition was described by many witnesses for both parties, notably including defense experts Minnich and Fuller, as "special creation" of kinds of animals, an inherently religious and creationist concept. (28:85-86 (Fuller); Minnich Dep. at 34, May 26, 2005; Trial Tr. vol. 1, Miller Test., 141-42, Sept. 26, 2005; 9:10 (Haught); Trial Tr. vol. 33, Bonsell Test., 54-56, Oct. 31, 2005). Professor Behe's assertion that this passage was merely a description of appearances in the fossil record is illogical and defies the weight of the evidence that the passage is a conclusion about how life began based upon an interpretation of the fossil record, which is reinforced by the content of drafts of Pandas.
            ---

            In other words, the terms as defined clearly mirrored what we know as 'creationism' and that it was an inherently religious concept. Even the expert witnesses for the defense, Minnich and Fuller had to admit this. Behe attempted to 'explain' away the evidence but was ruled to be illogical and the weight of the evidence presented.

            Thus the court concluded based on the evidence presented that

            --
            The weight of the evidence clearly demonstrates, as noted, that the systemic change from "creation" to "intelligent design" occurred sometime in 1987, after the Supreme Court's important Edwards decision. This compelling evidence strongly supports Plaintiffs' assertion that ID is creationism re-labeled. Importantly, the objective observer, whether adult or child, would conclude from the fact that Pandas posits a master intellect that the intelligent designer is God.
            --

            Such is the danger of relying on a biased set of documents from the publishers of Pandas and the Discovery Institute.

            So let's see at what the book 'argues'

            --
            The book argues that the origin of new organisms is "in an immaterial cause: in a blueprint, a plan, a pattern, devised by an intelligent agent."
            --

            Clearly supernatural since common intelligent designers do not require immaterial causes. In addition, the objections to evolutionary theory mirror the same flawed criticisms of earlier religious opposition. So no wonder that reviewers such as Kevin Padian, a biologist at University of California Berkeley .. called it "a wholesale distortion of modern biology.

            --Of Pandas
            Creation means that the various forms of life began abruptly through the agency of an intelligent creator with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc
            --

            Exactly mirroring Christian apologetics...

            - PvMUS September 21, 2008 1:48PM

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            • F2XL
              I'm still not convinced

              "You argue, based on the FTE's claims that the term 'creation' and 'creationism' had nothing to do with religion."

              And based on my own experiment in which I check Pandas out from the library and checked to see what the book would implicate if the term "creator" was used throughout the book.

              "Now I understand why you want to rely on the DI and the FTE's claims but this means that you are shielded from the facts."

              I beg to differ. They wrote the contents, I think they are just as qualified as anyone else to explain what was and wasn't in the early drafts.

              "In addition you have fallen victim of the claim that just because the FTE was denied to be heard, that the argument was not heard."

              Nothing in the passage of the ruling mentions that their argument was heard.

              "(1) the definition for creation science in early drafts is identical to the definition of ID;"

              If that's true, then the context of the term "creation science" was not used in a religious manner at all.

              "(2) cognates of the word creation (creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and"

              Then that clearly means they did not specifically implicate god in the passages (if that's truly the change that happened). Having drafts that say "We can't tell if the creator is natural or supernatural" does not constitute a religious idea.

              "(3) the changes occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that creation science is religious and cannot be taught in public school science classes in Edwards."

              Right, because they wanted people to be aware that they were pursuing a completely different methodology then that of the people who lost their case in Edwards. From one of the authors of the book:

              "I wasn’t comfortable with the typical vocabulary that for the most part creationists were using because it didn’t express what I was trying to do. They were wanting to bring God into the discussion, and I was wanting to stay within the empirical domain and do what you can do legitimately there."

              (Deposition of Charles Thaxton 52-53, Kitzmiller, No. 4:04-CV-2688 (M.D. Pa., July 19, 2005))

              That was how he coined the term "Intelligent Design."

              "***This word substitution is telling, significant, and reveals that a purposeful change of words was effected without any corresponding change in content, which directly refutes FTE's argument that by merely disregarding the words "creation" and "creationism," FTE expressly rejected creationism in Pandas.***"

              Considering the source of Judge Jones' ruling, it's no surprise that he would come to this conclusion without giving the FTE a fair trial. The answer is no, it doesn't. None of the three points Judges Jones and the ACLU make show that the early drafts specifically implicate god or the supernatural in Pandas. All it does show is that they wanted people to be aware they were writing about a completely different set of ideas then what creationists where aiming for in the late 80's.

              "In early pre-Edwards drafts of Pandas, the term "creation" was defined as "various forms of life that began abruptly through an intelligent agency with their distinctive features intact – fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc," the very same way in which ID is defined in the subsequent published versions. (P-560 at 210; P-1 at 2-13; P-562 at 2-14, P-652 at 2-15; P-6 at 99-100; P-11 at 99-100; P-856.2.)."

              Again, there is nothing within that definition which would show that the early drafts of Panda's specifically stated God or the Supernatural was the source of the various things they were trying to explain. "Intelligent Agency" could mean just about anything, nothing about it points directly to God.

              (onto part 2)

              - F2XLUS September 21, 2008 3:43PM

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              • F2XL
                Part 1.5

                Had to divide the one post into 3 in order for it to be short enough. Almost forgot this though:

                "This definition was described by many witnesses for both parties, notably including defense experts Minnich and Fuller, as "special creation" of kinds of animals, an inherently religious and creationist concept."

                That's what Jones says, but he offers no proof that god or the supernatural is directly implicated. What he is committing is a fallacy of composition, assuming that what is true of the part must be true of the whole. Just because there is ONE trait that early ID and creationism somewhat have in common does not by itself prove the early drafts where implicating god or the supernatural.

                "Professor Behe's assertion that this passage was merely a description of appearances in the fossil record is illogical.................."

                How so? The description does fit how the fossil record seems to show many creatures forming with new traits fully intact; nothing illogical about that.

                "..........and defies the weight of the evidence that the passage is a conclusion about how life began based upon an interpretation of the fossil record, which is reinforced by the content of drafts of Pandas."

                None of this indicates that Pandas were advocating that life forms appeared in a "puff of smoke creation," all it does is show how Pandas described the fossil record. And that claim is NOT reinforced by the content of drafts of Pandas, nothing in them directly implicates god or the supernatural.

                - F2XLUS September 21, 2008 4:03PM

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              • PvM
                Most to lose

                --
                I beg to differ. They wrote the contents, I think they are just as qualified as anyone else to explain what was and wasn't in the early drafts.
                --

                And have most to lose by exposing what was in the early drafts. In fact, that is what Buell explained to its religious supporters when asking for more money to get the book prepared for publication. Weird, and that for a religious organization which claims not to be religious and yet has filed a statement with the IRS that it was.

                --
                The courtroom phase of the landmark case, Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District came to an end on November 4. You know that we have been in the cross-hairs of the ACLU through this case, and we thank you for your interest, for your prayer involvement, and your support. Indeed, you have taken a place on our "horizon of warriors," in our fight to survive the ACLU's ambush in Federal District Court. And by standing with us, you have done much to enable us to make our best effort. Now, you can profoundly affect the outcome of this struggle.
                --


                and

                --
                It's a bit complex, but please follow this carefully: Our adversary in this battle wants to make certain that of the two dominant views on origins that parallel the two long-standing world views of Western Civilization, only one, the one that parallels Philosophical naturalism, (Scientific Materialism, or atheism) is taught in the' public schools.
                --

                What is the other dominant view of origins? 'design'

                Fascinating how these creationists betray themselves by their own words

                All from Exhibit B to 2005-12-07 Plaintiffs response to FTE-DI amicus, document 338, case 4:04-cv-02688-JEJ, filed 12/07/2005

                No God you say. Well not in direct words perhaps but all in implication and intention it seems. The judge was not convinced by the attempts to argue otherwise, the claim that it cannot address the issue of natural v. supernatural is just hilarious, just the mentioning of supernatural shows that this was about religion.

                - PvMUS September 21, 2008 4:47PM

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            • F2XL
              Part 2

              "In other words, the terms as defined clearly mirrored what we know as 'creationism' and that it was an inherently religious concept."

              See the above points, the terms prove no such thing.

              "Even the expert witnesses for the defense, Minnich and Fuller had to admit this. Behe attempted to 'explain' away the evidence but was ruled to be illogical and the weight of the evidence presented."

              What "evidence?" You have yet to provide anything that says god or the supernatural is directly implicated.

              "The weight of the evidence clearly demonstrates, as noted, that the systemic change from "creation" to "intelligent design" occurred sometime in 1987, after the Supreme Court's important Edwards decision."

              Which does nothing but show they wanted people to be aware that they were pursuing a different set of ideas then that of the creationists of the late 80's.

              "This compelling evidence strongly supports Plaintiffs' assertion that ID is creationism re-labeled."

              By itself, no. You would have to find specific passages that state that ID requires God or the Supernatural.

              "Importantly, the objective observer, whether adult or child, would conclude from the fact that Pandas posits a master intellect that the intelligent designer is God."

              This passage suggests otherwise, it states that, "Some master intellect is the creator of life. But such observable instances of information cannot tell us if the intellect behind them is natural or supernatural.":

              http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?command=download&id=796

              I would be naive to ignore that passage, it clearly states the opposite of what Judge Jones and the ACLU asserted.

              "Such is the danger of relying on a biased set of documents from the publishers of Pandas and the Discovery Institute."

              Such is the dangers of assuming from the start that what Jones (I should just say ACLU) states is true without actually reading the drafts for yourself.

              "The book argues that the origin of new organisms is "in an immaterial cause: in a blueprint, a plan, a pattern, devised by an intelligent agent.""

              Which means nothing more then the fact that the origin of new life forms is not reducible to matter and energy.

              "Clearly supernatural since common intelligent designers do not require immaterial causes."

              Common designers use more then just ink and paper when planning something, they use information which is in itself, an immaterial cause (not reducible to JUST matter and energy).

              "In addition, the objections to evolutionary theory mirror the same flawed criticisms of earlier religious opposition."

              Fallacy of composition. What's true of the parts is not automatically true of the whole. Can you describe some of these criticisms for me?

              "So no wonder that reviewers such as Kevin Padian, a biologist at University of California Berkeley .. called it "a wholesale distortion of modern biology."

              Seems like everyone has different reasons for critiquing ID, most that I see attack it's credibility as science without really addressing the arguments themselves, but that would be part of a totally different discussion altogether.

              "Creation means that the various forms of life began abruptly through the agency of an intelligent creator with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc"

              Hold on.......

              "Exactly mirroring Christian apologetics..."

              ......except there is no mention of the special creation taking place in a day (or less then a week), nothing that states the earth is 10,000 years old, nothing which explains the geography of the earth by means of a global catastrophic flood (nothing mentioning flood geology either), nothing that says that there is a separate ancestry for humans and apes, or that the universe had a sudden creation out of nothing by either god or a supernatural being of any kind

              - F2XLUS September 21, 2008 3:44PM

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              • PvM
                Missing the forrest through the trees

                F2XL attempts to dismiss the well established similarities between ID and Creationism as outlined in the Pandas documents. In fact, while Buell and others claimed that ID is not creationism, all they did was a global replace of creation with design and creationist with design proponent, all coinciding with the loss in Edwards where creationism had failed based on its religious history. As even the defense experts admitted, Pandas uses the same definitions of creation/design which are so typically found in creationist texts.

                "Creation means that the various forms of life began abruptly through the agency of an intelligent creator with their distinctive features already intact. Fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc"

                This is exactly what creationism has been arguing. Is thus ID nothing more than creationism where somewhat disingeneously, the nature of the designer is left hanging even though the context shows that it requires and prefers a supernatural designer?

                Why would design which is based on the same foundation as previous forms of creationism be considered any different especially when the claims are not just the same but scientifically misleading and/or wrong?

                F2XL admits as much when he attempts to explain
                --
                "The book argues that the origin of new organisms is "in an immaterial cause: in a blueprint, a plan, a pattern, devised by an intelligent agent.""

                Which means nothing more then the fact that the origin of new life forms is not reducible to matter and energy.
                --

                So what else is needed? Poof? A soul? And why do you call it a fact? There is no such established fact. Unless one of course is religiously motivated and then 'the bible tells me so' explains why one consider this to be a fact.

                - PvMUS September 21, 2008 4:40PM

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              • PvM
                Misleading

                --Common designers use more then just ink and paper when planning something, they use information which is in itself, an immaterial cause (not reducible to JUST matter and energy).--

                Information in the end IS reducible to energy or matter, it's just that in its abstract form information does not exist. It always involves a transmitter and receiver and a communications channel. Dembski attempted to argue that by making the frequency of the signal infinite in wavelength, energy would go to zero. Needless to say that such a channel also has zero bandwidth and no information would pass.

                This is fascinating how ID claims that information is something immaterial. In fact science and logic tell us otherwise.

                - PvMUS September 21, 2008 4:50PM

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