Does Owning a Gun Make You Safer?

Does Owning a Gun Make You Safer?

The second amendment of the constitution guarantees the right to keep and bear arms. As the specter of gun violence continues in our workplaces, roads and schools, the question keeps arising: do guns keep you safe, or just increase the level of violence?

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Look at the details of the 1%
  • nbkwx55
    Let's legislate based on the measured outcomes

    My objection is the argument that only "irresponsible" people cause accidental gun deaths so it's not worth changing the laws for everyone else. This presumes that we need guns in the hands of responsible people and the deaths of kids due to irresponsible people is just an unfortunate, but necessary, cost of keeping gun ownership legal.

    The statistical facts are that guns in a home increase the chance that someone in that home will be killed by that gun due to a homicide, suicide or accident at a level well above the chance that the gun will be used for self-defense. Here is the list of stats and their sources on one website:
    http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm
    I tend to believe the CDC and New England Journal of Medicine, though I'm sure the NRA's researchers will claim they have some anti-gun agenda funded by their insatiable desire to obtain more tax dollars or perhaps those pediatricians' blood thirsty quest to keep their patients alive so they can keep billing them for office visits...

    I'm not sure what alliance a concealed carry permit holder is making with the police. Are you going to be drawing your weapon and shooting at any criminal you see? I haven't seen any police chief or FBI director endorse that kind of help. I don't doubt that most gun owners are law abiding. The problem is that several thousand each year are not. And when they want to break the law, they have an almost unlimited access to incredibly powerful weapons. We would all be far safer if those people were presented with the choice of using a knife or their fists versus having to try to break into a military base to obtain a weapon more powerful and dangerous than a hunting rifle. Several hundred more gun owners make the mistake each year of leaving their weapons where a child can get access to them and then shoot themselves or someone else.

    Your point that large scale public shootings happen BECAUSE of "no gun zones" - is one of the more incendiary arguments I've heard in awhile. The point of not allowing guns in there is to prevent the kind of crime that happened. If those people had to go through a rigorous licensing process, have to pay a hefty fee to own even one rifle and in general not have the option of buying up several hand guns, semi automatic assault rifles and armor piercing bullets with a valid drivers license and a fairly clean criminal background, they wouldn't have the ability to kill at the scale and efficiency they've been able to achieve. The thought that the best defense against those kind of people is to arm everyone who wants to carry a gun around town is a leap of faith most people are not willing to make. We'd rather have everyone but the police disarmed and make it much more difficult for mentally disturbed/violent/criminal/irresponsible people to obtain weapons. And the incidents are not "rare". Killing ten or more people intentionally in the span of 30 minutes is "rare" when it happens once a year. Having a student come into school and shoot classmates and teachers is "rare" when it happens once every five years. When it happens 5-10 times per year, it's "frequent".

    And as a final note - the rate of deaths due to lots of other causes far exceeds handguns. Heart disease, lung cancer, traffic fatalities, pedestrian deaths etc. The difference is that these are all by products of either diseases or useful tools where most people agree their benefits outweigh the costs. Most people don't agree that the benefit of gun ownership outweighs the cost to society. But because most people don't care enough to lobby and vote based on this issue as much as the NRA lobbies and funds campaigns against congressmen that vote against them, legislators don't take their side.

    - nbkwx55US September 9, 2008 7:13AM

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    • sevesteen
      Measured outcomes favor lawful ownership

      The statistical facts you talk about have severe flaws when trying to use them to justify more laws.

      First is counting suicide as "gun violence", assuming that all those who choose a gun would not find another method if guns are not available. (Japan...) Even if that were true, an increased risk of suicide may be a reason to try to convince people to voluntarily give up guns. It is not sufficient justification to eliminate freedom and choice.

      Second is the definition of "used in self defense". Over 90% of the time when a law-abiding person defends with a gun, no shots are necessary. These studies insist that the defender must shoot or kill someone before it counts as "used in self defense". My definition of defense is quite different--If someone runs away I will let them, and consider that the best possible outcome to a bad situation.

      Finally, households with convicted criminals have many times higher rates of gun violence-Not even in the same league as the law abiding. Eliminate these people from your sample and the "violence" rates plummet.

      It isn't the guns causing the danger, it is the criminal behavior, including illegally possessing guns. Adding laws that restrict the behavior of the law-abiding in order to stop criminals who are already ignoring existing laws isn't logical.

      Ally in the sense of having goals in common, and rarely conflicting. Not as in "members of the same team, working together to capture criminals".

      As far as safer? Without legal firearms criminals have a much clearer idea of who makes a good victim-Pick a small weak looking person walking alone, and a knife, or even a couple of similarly inclined associates are plenty. Lawful guns create a shield effect, even to those not using them.

      Spree shootings aren't CAUSED by "no gun" zones, they are caused by spree shooters. Spree shootings have fewer victims when there is someone on the scene who can shoot back-In more than one case, to the point of not being large-scale despite evidence that was the intent. In most cases, that means a license holder. Spree shooters realize this, and if they have a choice of venue, they are likely to pick the one where guns are forbidden.

      "Arm everyone" is not what is proposed. When states adopt objective licensing criteria, licenses seem to stabilize at roughly 2% of the population, roughly 10 years later. All available data says that this 2% is many times more law abiding and less violent than the general population.

      The idea that "most people" would rather have "everyone disarmed" flies in the face of gun ownership rates--Somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of American households own guns, and many who don't own guns still think that it should be allowed.

      What "most people" would like to see is enforcement of existing laws. When someone fails a gun purchase background check, there is an arrest about 1% of the time--There should be a police investigation 100% of the time, and a whole lot more arrests.

      - sevesteenUS September 9, 2008 6:29PM

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      • nbkwx55
        I think if you want results you have to stop the sale

        http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf
        This summary of surveys backs up part of your argument and part of mine:
        http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm

        I can no longer say most people want everyone but the police disarmed. That's not true according to these polls. But they do want gun laws to be stricter.

        I'd argue that making guns easily available but trying to legislate their purchase and ownership through poorly funded systems of gun laws is a recipe for disaster. I think the theory is good - and if police and the FBI had enough money to chase every failed background check, and every state spent enough money to keep the background check system accurate, it could work out. But like most good ideas there's not enough money to make it work in the real world. So I'd argue you have to eliminate the supply to effect the restrictions the law is attempting to achieve.

        I won't argue that permit-carrying licensed gun owners aren't more law-abiding than the rest of the population. My point is that those that want to cause harm can get access to weapons too easily. I don't think the concealed-carry permit holders are a good defense against them. So I'm in favor of making most guns illegal to sell or own, except for a restricted set of hunting rifles which requires a high fee to own and is strictly monitored by a well funded government system. I think that would make everyone safer.

        - nbkwx55US September 10, 2008 12:00PM

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        • sevesteen
          don't know the current laws

          A whole lot of people don't know what the current laws are. There is an impression that criminals go to gun shows to buy $100 full-auto AK47's from dealers without a background check.

          If lying on a 4473 usually put you in jail (like it should...) then pretty soon the word would get out, and people would quit trying. If we aren't even going to make a token attempt to enforce a law, we shouldn't keep that law.

          Eliminating the supply to the law-abiding is fairly easy--Just pass a law. Eliminating the criminal supply is much more difficult. Guns last decades or centuries--I personally know someone who until this year carried a gun last manufactured in the mid 1920's. We can't keep consumable drugs out of our country--Can we keep durable guns out? If not, then the lack of supply is more than made up for by the lack of resistance.

          - sevesteenUS September 10, 2008 4:53PM

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