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(Opinion) Nicaragua Shows What Could Be if Abortion Outlawed in US
By Amnesty International
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A rise of 13 in a year?!
Fried by the sun?
"whimsically aborted" is a personal opinion Solar, not a statistical fact.
- JBarnett
July 29, 2009 8:46PM
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Fried by the sun?
If you have something you want to say, just come out and say it. No need to be passive-aggressive on the internet .
I stand by my statement. Aborting 1 life on whimsy is a bad choice.
Ignoring 1,200,000 abortions a year is Liberalism.
Perhaps /I/ am not the one who needs to get out of the sun, erm?
- SolarSanitizer
July 29, 2009 8:59PM
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I too stand by my statement
"whimsically aborted" is a personal opinion Solar, not a fact. I find it highly unlikely that you've done the research to verify that 1.2 million abortions per year are performed "on a whimsy". Abortion is a complex issue, I may not like it, but I will always support the individual's right to make that choice for themselves (I'm not living their life or circumstances..it's not my place to decide, nor is it yours).
- JBarnett
July 29, 2009 9:11PM
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Ok, if one word is blocking your vision...
...Perhaps I could use another. How about unneccessary. Or elective, or conveinent. Perhaps discretionary, or optional, or selective. Maybe you'd prefer to see these other words so you could then see the message in the sentence.
Talk about missing the forest because of the trees, but I digress.
You are correct on one point, though. I cannot compile these numbers as a private citizen. It takes scholarly research to determine such statistics. If proof ot that will keep you from "poisoning my well" on this matter, I give you the following:
http://www.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/phil %20115/Stats_on_abortion.htm
Now, care to discuss this, or are you still stuck on a word?
- SolarSanitizer
July 29, 2009 9:21PM
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acceptable
So it is acceptable to you for a girl to have to bring her own brother to term?
That is one stack of numbers by the way... with no indication of the methodology used, so it's hardly a valid source
- MrBook
July 29, 2009 9:33PM
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No, I'm not a savage.
Rape, incest, and bona-fide risk are reasonable scenarios for abortion . They are serious issues, and not given to whimsy.
Alternatively, if the partner isn't wanting children , interference with career, interference with social life, wanting to keep one's figure, ect. are reasons for abortion which are birth-control, and elective in nature. I don't agree with abortion as birth-control. As a single parent who struggles with a special-needs child, I think I have a leg to stand on.
As for the numbers...The were compiled by the Guttmacher Institute, which is a leading authority on abortion in America and abroad. They have a website.
- SolarSanitizer
July 29, 2009 11:39PM
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education
"I don't agree with abortion as birth-control."
How are you going to differentiate between abortion as birth-control, and abortion because the woman cannot care for the child or it is a result of sexual abuse?
"As a single parent who struggles with a special-needs child, I think I have a leg to stand on."
That was your choice, but who are you to force that choice on others?
"As for the numbers...The were compiled by the Guttmacher Institute, which is a leading authority on abortion in America and abroad. They have a website."
Then link to their statistics and methodology.
- MrBook
July 30, 2009 5:53AM
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Ok, now we're closer to common ground
I don't like the idea that any woman would use abortion as birth-control; especially in any "westernized" society (there are so many alternatives). I also know that with any "liberty", there will be a minority of the population that will abuse it due to any number of factors (lack of education , lack of adequate health care /resources, laziness).
Unfortunately, many countries are not socially evolved or secular in their attitudes towards the rights of women/girls and their own sexuality and self determination. All you have to do is look at any male dominated culture in the world to see the horrific reality, ei: honor killings, female genital mutilation, rape as a weapon, acid attacks on women/girls in all Islamic countries, the forced isolation of women/girls from society and being considered the property of the male relative in all Islamic societies, etc.
In a perfect world, abortion would be an option of last resort. Unfortunately, this isn't a perfect world, so I would rather that abortion stay legal , safe and available to the women who make what must be one of the most difficult decisions of one's life.
- JBarnett
July 30, 2009 7:40PM
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Oh, and one more thought
"The rate of maternal deaths in Nicaragua has increased: Official figures show that 33 girls and women have died in pregnancy or childbirth so far this year, up from 20 in the same period a year ago"
This article was on the fact that women/girls in Nicaragua are DYING in pregnancy and/or childbirth because abortion is now illegal in that country. The 33 that have died, "so far this year", died because the couldn't get an abortion to save their lives, not to retain their figures.......
- JBarnett
July 30, 2009 7:55PM
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Dead link
No stats found.
- Submariner July 29, 2009 10:31PM
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There is a space between,
"phil" and "&". Ya gotta paste it in your url bar and remove the space.
I don't know why it did that.
- SolarSanitizer
July 29, 2009 11:33PM
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hmm
I still can't get it to work. Is it from this Guttmacher Institute?
- Submariner July 30, 2009 1:29AM
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While we are counting...
This controversy is so screwy. If life is material enough to keep score - shouldn't we use criteria better than potential-to-get-own name-some-day to count it? Why use mass, or age, or physical attractiveness? Capacity to suffer and utilitarian usefulness sound like more valid things to measure quantity of life than just having managed to complete a few cell division.
And your categorization of Liberalism is hardly fair for the body of modern thought that established democratic values, inalienable human rights, equality, and the notion of individual quality of life having universal value.
It does not surprise me that you would take the right of the mother to choose to be one from her if you so "whimisically abort" the establishment of modern liberalism that gives, among other things, you the right to say something, no matter how savagely ignorant it is.
- Submariner July 29, 2009 10:41PM
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What are you talking about?
Your first paragraph is nonsensical.
You last paragraph, especially the line: "the establishment of modern liberalism that gives, among other things, you the right to say something" makes me think you aren't exactly a student of history.
It is the middle one that seems to string together a couple thoughts together, though.
Do you really think that liberalism established inalienable human rights, equality, and the notion of individual quality of life having universal value?
First of all, ironically in an ABORTION debate, I think you are very brave to even bring up inalienable human rights seeing as HOW THE FIRST INALIENABLE HUMAN RIGHT IS THE RIGHT TO LIFE!
Secondly, how is equality promoted when one life is snuffed out so another can keep her social schedule/career path?!
Finally, how would you describe the quality of life of an aborted fetus lying in a trash receptacle?
Sheesh.
- SolarSanitizer
July 29, 2009 11:32PM
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No life at all.
An aborted fetus has no life to qualify. It likely had little to speak of before the procedure, further. And in most cases it had less of a life to look forward to than had it been conceived by a consenting adult interested in being a parent.
Modern Liberalism is the body of thought that brought the Dark Ages into the modern (and post modern) world of egalitarianism, rule of law , and individualism. Here's a fair treatment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
See, not a student, but a teacher.
First paragraph in simple terminology: "By what criteria do you quantify life? How did you choose? Why not choose something else?"
Life is not a pile of cells. Not even a large old pile of cells. Even the dynamic life is not held in much esteem by most. Human chauvinism is rampant in regards to what life is "special". What makes life special is a different matter, and it is difficult in the extreme, if not impoosible, to determine objectively what is the value of life. If it must be subjective, then the carrying mother is the power of life for any organism that depends oh her. So who are you to judge? No- freaking-body, that's who; at least without your imaginary friends or the rule of law, which currently allows for the power of life we are talking about.
Even your loaded language and prejudicial tone do not explain what makes you think anyone should tell a woman what to do with part of her anatomy, besides herself.
So what criteria? I suppose you freak out when someone passes a tape worm, too? Maybe you are easily impressed, but I do not think it is necessarilly brave to challenge vitriolic miscategorizations based on tired dogma's fueled on self-righteous hypocracricy. Just a passing duty...
- Submariner July 30, 2009 1:08AM
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Modern Liberalism/Who am I?/Criteria
Modern Liberalism is effectivly just a bunch of people who agree in a few basic tenets:
1- Victim Mentality.
Modern Liberals are victims and think everyone else either owes them something or that they are entitled to something.
2- Selfishness above all.
Personal freedoms which encroah upon the freedoms of others are the most sought after. (Especially if that means that the other can be killed and thrown away.)
3- Fairness.
Everything must be fair. The caveat? Only the Liberal's idea of fair is considered.
All that other blather about ushering in a great new era or whatever is hogwash.
Who am I?
I am a member of this society . I am a single father, without whom a precious child would be in stuck in 18 years of foster "care". I am a voter. I am a compassionate human who is sure that a child is not a parasite. It might surprise you to learn that as half of "Parents" a father, like me, actually DOES have a say in these matters.
But hold on a second...
Why are you making this about me? Even if you wish to hang this around my neck to allow your petty insults to resonate, I reject it completely and point out that your insults are just that: Insults.
Criteria.
The only criteria /should/ be whether or not the baby is viable.
The haughty attitude and insults speak volumes, however. They tell me that you do not want this argument to continue, so, I'll let you off the hook. So, you can advocate killing otherwise viable babies, and I'll work to save them from folks like you.
Good day.
- SolarSanitizer
July 30, 2009 2:00AM
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Nicaraguan
I’m a 31 years old Nicaraguan man.
My mother told me about hers risky adventure when my younger brother was born in 1981, because him size and position she needs to have him in a cesarean procedure, thanks good was after 1979!!! (My mother said) in the Sandinista administration, because before 1979 it was necessary and mandatory by law to ask for the husband’s authorization on paper , to practice a cesarean procedure to the future mother in an open violation of baby and mother’s human rights over clinical , medical and professional reasons.
It was in my opinion, a society conspiracy to keep the power of the man over the family, supporting the “macho man” culture when men used to represent the establish order while paradoxically they used to walk away from the responsibilities that it supposed to represent to be a father… I’m going to tell you how you going to have”your” (read ours) kids and don’t expect my signature is going to be in the birth certificate.
An important percentage of those kids have not birth certificate… now in 2009.
Even with thousands of kids living under the line of the poverty, In Nicaragua is also hard to deal for an adoption process because in the last years some well organize gangs where perform human traffic of those kids to Guatemala for organs or sex exploitation, …I’m sorry you probably don’t know about it.
Abortion ?
I will be personally happy if the government performs a national vasectomy campaign for those who don’t deserve to be a father for criminal record or other moral reasons, why I will blame or make responsible just the mother?
Where is the guy in this story?
I suggest to research about it not like an American phenomenon because the circumstances in Nicaragua are completely different, you need to heat a lot of fiber from the Nicaraguan history to digest the facts of my country’s present.
From clinic to clinic .
Why is the American way? Have the necessary numbers of visits to abortion clinics until you” think” you are ready and when you “think” you are, run ( because you are over 35) to the closest fertility clinic to have 8 kids at once , then become in a freak attraction in a TV reality show.
- Meso
July 30, 2009 2:30PM
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Speaking Volumes...
I was using volume, not volumes. If I thought you could hear books, I would not have to explain what liberalism is repeatedly.
The free world as we know it is the product of modern liberalism. The ideology that individuals have rights and that equality is something to strive for is an outgrowth of "leftist" morality and policy from centuries past. The founding of the USA, for example, is just so. What you discount is also a source of hope and inspiration for the not-so-free world.
Ironically, the idealism you imply is not sincere is probably the biggest problem with contemporary liberals, but if you think them insincere you are far behind the power curve. Their sincerety is what makes them a threat to the neocom/right platforms in the US. You will note their successes through the democratic process the last year...
For the personal matter, I would just point out that your single criteria would force doctors to deliver children that threaten the life of the mother. Even on the simplest points you really do not make any sense. Which is why I was asking you to explain how you evaluate life.
It's hard to elevate the discourse to an adult level if you insist on maintianing prejudicial stereotypes and equivocating on terms with which you are apparently unfamiliar.
- Submariner July 30, 2009 5:57PM
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Also
I consider myself pretty liberal, but I totally reject your definition of the "basic tenents" of Liberalism...here again, you're giving a personal opinion, not a fact.
- JBarnett
July 30, 2009 8:14PM
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Single father to a special needs child
So I think I've figured this out Solar...you're former wife didn't want the baby, especially after finding out the baby would be a " special needs " baby?? I suppose she didn't want to be inconvenienced, give up her social schedule and her career path?? So you somehow convinced her to carry to term with the agreement to a divorce in which you'd raise your child by yourself.....is that pretty much your story? If so, I can see why you're bitter towards abortion . However, not every women who chooses to have an abortion is doing it for selfish reasons (as you too have acknowledged earlier in the thread).
- JBarnett
July 30, 2009 8:26PM
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different argument entirely
"Secondly, how is equality promoted when one life is snuffed out so another can keep her social schedule/career path?!"
The article wasn't about ELECTIVE abortion solar, the article was about women/girls DYING because abortion is now illegal in Nicaragua.
Saving a woman's life is a far cry from "snuffing out" a life for the sake of a woman's social schedule and/or career path.
So "sheesh" right back at you.
- JBarnett
July 30, 2009 8:01PM
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