Comment: Are you kidding? in Opinion: Why is Killing Abortionists Like George Tiller So Wrong? on Opposing Views

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(Opinion) Why is Killing Abortionists Like George Tiller So Wrong?

By Reason Foundation

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Regarding Opinion

Why is Killing Abortionists Like George Tiller So Wrong?

Are you kidding?

Because murder is murder and death is death.

This represents the typical hypocrisy of the 'right-to-life' yet 'pro- death penalty ' side of the argument. If this argument is ever truly to be taken seriously you need to renounce your support of the death penalty... (which by the tone of this article I can only assume the author is in favor of.) How can advocating a criminals' death, even a murderers' death, be considered pro-life ?

Finally, I'd like to offer the position that people and groups in the public eye, such as Terry, are quick to condemn these acts as a sort-of preemptive strike against questions that are bound to surface about his responsibility for the attack. Randall Terry has a long and documented history of subtly advocating violence against abortion clinics, and I believe he is simply attempting to cover his own butt, lest some overzealous prosecutor wishes to present the matter to a grand jury.

- KwameJones June 1, 2009 3:28PM

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- I think this article
  
  might be a bit facetious. I'm hoping that it's intended to point out the inherent hypocrisy in the Pro-Life movement. Fingers crossed.
  
  - quantummechanik June 1, 2009 6:11PM
  
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  - I think
    
    you are giving pro-life Americans too much credit! They really DO think like this, many of them, I am sorry to say.
    
    - donnawatkins June 3, 2009 11:20AM
    
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    - Well, crap
      
      There goes a good 15% of my hope for humanity.
      
      - quantummechanik June 3, 2009 11:22AM
      
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      - I hope you are right...
        
        I had the same initial response as you, quantummchanik. I have to presume that the author isn't being facetious, but it sure seems like he might be.
        
        At any rate, please don't take this author's way of thinking as a good example of what most Pro-life activists are like.
        
        All human lives are precious -- including those of abortion doctors ! That understanding is what keeps the Pro-life movement going in the way that it has for several decades now - nonviolent resistance and trying to work within the system to change things for the better.
        
        peace
        
        - dannyboy June 3, 2009 3:55PM
        
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    - Mind if I interject?
      
      If you look at Catholics standing outside abortion mills praying rosaries, you will see the more moderate pro-life activists. The church has a longstanding view on the sanctity of life, from conception to natural death. This sanctity extends to the most vile of our society , including serial rapists, murderers, and terrorists. This even extends to euthanasia , a position far more difficult to defend.
      
      - nnadeau June 5, 2009 4:36PM
      
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      - Correct
        
        Whereas i loathe catholics, I find myself in agreement here - even the most wretched of humans should be exempt from torture and death sentence.
        
        - Khannea Suntzu June 8, 2009 11:11AM
        
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    - No, you don't think
      
      Donna, you apparently don't know too many pro-life people. The majority of pro-lifers in no way advocate vigilante justice against the likes of Dr. Tiller, no matter how wrong we think he is.
      Pro-choice advocates love to point out that things are never black and white, except when it comes to pro-lifers. According to you, those are the only two colors we see, which could not be further from the truth.
      Don't let fear, ignorance, and prejudice cloud your thinking. Just because I disagree with you, and I feel strongly about my position, as do you, doesn't mean I want you dead. That kind of thinking is ridiculous.
      
      - LagerHead June 16, 2009 9:57AM
      
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    - Pro-life not Pro-Death
      
      George Tiller is dead. No more babies to die at his hands! 60,000 innocent lives were taken which God gave to mothers who did not want them. Whata sad legacy to leave behind, so sad that even his church did not mention his occupation in his eulogy. We as pro-lifers believe that life and death should be in the hands of God. When our Lord returns, there will be no more death. Tiller will face his maker then. We all must prepare our hearts and live our lives so we can meet our loved ones in Heaven. Noone should take the chance of being lost because of greed. And greed is what motivates abortionists.
      
      - Alayna Staggers June 23, 2009 1:25PM
      
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      - If you believe death should be in the hands of God
        
        Why are you guys shooting people?
        
        - quantummechanik June 27, 2009 10:01PM
        
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        Pro-Life Not Pro-Death
        
        It has been acknowledged that the man who shot Tiller acted alone. He was in no way connected to the pro-life movement. "We" do not shoot people. Tiller did take life into his own hands and killed 60,000 babies! Death was his mission and he reaped what he sowed. God took his protective hand off of Tiller (in my opinion) because God knew there was no repentence in Tiller for what he was doing. His death took place in his own church , which was symbolic as we pro-lifers asked the church to discipline Tiller for his acts. His church refused to listen as many still refuse to listen to God's warnings. We are to take heed as God is a loving and righteous God but when His wrath is kindled we have much to fear, just as everyone must face him for all their misdeeds. God is sickened by abortion , the murder of His very precious little ones. Is there really any doubt?
        
        - Alayna Staggers June 28, 2009 3:07PM
        
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        What is pro-life
        
        You're part of the pro-life movement, I assume. What do you do that makes you part of the pro-life movement? What actions do you take that involves you with that community?
        
        - quantummechanik June 28, 2009 4:47PM
        
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        Bullshit
        
        "He was in no way connected to the pro-life movement."
        
        I'm presuming you're just ignorant and not intentionally lying.
        
        "David Leach, publisher of Prayer & Action News, a magazine that opines that the killing of abortion providers would be justifiable homicide , told reporters that he and Roeder had met once in the late 1990s and that Roeder at that time had authored contributions to Leach's publication.[27][28][29] Leach published the Army of God manual, which advocates the killing of the providers of abortion and contains bomb-making instructions, in the January 1996 issue of his magazine.[30] A Kansas acquaintance of Roeder's, Regina Dinwiddie, told a reporter after Tiller's murder (speaking of Roeder), "I know that he believed in justifiable homicide." Dinwiddie, an anti-abortion militant featured in the 2000 HBO documentary Soldiers in the Army of God, added that she had observed Roeder in 1996 enter Kansas City Planned Parenthood's abortion clinic and ask to talk to the physician there; after staring at him for nearly a minute, Roeder said, "I’ve seen you now," before turning and walking away.[31]
        
        Roeder's former roommate of two years, Eddie Ebecher, who had met Roeder through the Freemen movement in the 1990s, told a reporter after Tiller's murder that he and Roeder had considered themselves members of the Army of God. Ebecher said Roeder was obsessed with Tiller and discussed killing him, but that Ebecher warned him not to do so. Ebecher, who went by the nom de guerre "Wolfgang Anacon," added that he believed Roeder held "high moral convictions in order to carry out this act. I feel that Scott had a burden for all the children being murdered."[32]
        
        In 2007, someone who identified himself as Scott Roeder posted on the website of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue that, "Tiller is the concentration camp 'Mengele' of our day and needs to be stopped before he and those who protect him bring judgment upon our nation." This was reported by the ADL's Center on Extremism, noting that Roeder called for "the closing of his death camp."[23][24] After Tiller's murder, officials from Operation Rescue, which had long opposed Tiller's abortion practices but denounced his shooting , said Roeder was not a contributor or member of the group.[14] The phone number for Operation Rescue's senior policy advisor, Cheryl Sullenger, was found on the dashboard of Scott Roeder's car[33]. At first, Operation Rescue's senior policy advisor Cheryl Sullenger denied any contact with Roeder, saying that her phone number is freely available online. Then, she revised her statements, indicating that Roeder’s interest was in court hearings involving Tiller.“ He would call and say, 'When does court start? When’s the next hearing?' I was polite enough to give him the information. I had no reason not to. Who knew? Who knew, you know what I mean?[8] ”
        
        Roeder reportedly attended the 2009 trial in which Tiller was acquitted of violating state abortion laws; Roeder called the trial "a sham" and felt the justice system failed in letting Tiller go free. On May 30, one day before Tiller was killed, a worker at a Kansas City clinic told the Federal Bureau of Investigation that Roeder had tried gluing the locks of the clinic shut, something Roeder was suspected of doing there before years earlier.[14] The Kansas City Star reported that a man of Roeder's description had glued the locks shot at the Central Family Medicine clinic in Kansas City on May 23 and May 30.[8]"
        
        Sorry, but the statement "He was in no way connected to the pro-life movement" is demonstrably Bullshit.
        
        No surprise there though, pro-lifers ignoring the facts when they are inconvenient.
        
        - Blappo July 7, 2009 4:31PM
        
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- Hypocrisy
  
  The way I see it, there is no hypocrisy in advocating the death penalty for people who knowingly murder other people while at the same time advocating for the right to life for the most innocent people on the planet (i.e., unborn children ). The death penalty should be applied to people who knowingly murder another human being, including the individual who murdered the abortion doctor. On the other hand, how do we justify the killing of perfectly innocent human beings such as unborn children? In my view, the hypocrisy is on the pro choice side of the argument. These individuals typically advocate leniency for murderers while at the same time supporting the death penalty for millions of perfectly innocent children. The world is upside down.
  
  - Dan the Man June 3, 2009 12:18PM
  
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  - No Hypocrisy at all
    
    There is a problem with your definitions of hypocrisy and knowingly murder. The person that applies the death penalty is "knowingly" murdering someone. Why should the state be exempted from an action that individuals know is wrong?
    The problem with "hypocrisy" is really in the self adopted name " pro-life " movement. All these groups are simply anti- abortion . There is nothing in there history to show that they really care about life. How many of these organizations ever oppose war? How many have ever opposed the death penalty (well know that one of their own suffered it, they do but what about before)?
    Even the whole killing/ murdering /death penalty of "perfectly innocent children " is a farce.
    How many of these anti-abortion groups have teamed up with other organizations to help poor families survive? How many scholarships are they providing for young women who have children? How many day centers do they help run so that young mother can go out and work to provide for these "perfectly innocent children"?
    These anti-abortion groups have a long road ahead of them to earn the right to call themselves pro-life.
    
    - mangueken June 3, 2009 2:23PM
    
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    - you would be surprised
      
      Like many Pro-choice folks, you seem to presume that the majority of Pro-life organizations do not support women and children after the child is born. Anyone who has actually been involved with the Pro-life movement can tell you otherwise.
      
      Every single Pro-life organization that I have worked with has included supporting mothers both pre- and post-partum.
      
      To say that most people in the Pro-life movement care nothing for mothers and born children is to demonstrate a real lack of understanding of what it really means to be involved in working against abortion .
      
      Why don't you try actually getting to know some people who work in the Pro-life cause some time? It might be illuminating to you.
      
      peace
      
      - dannyboy June 3, 2009 3:51PM
      
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      - Simple
        
        Show me the list of organizations that help women and children that the major anti- abortion groups works with and I will check them out.
        Upon such information I will have an opportunity to change my mind.
        
        - mangueken June 3, 2009 4:03PM
        
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        The list would be too long!
        
        But here are a few to help you get started.
        
        http://www.feministsforlife.org /
        http://www.rachelsvineyard.org /
        http://www.elizabethhouse.net /
        http://www.care-net.org /
        
        - dannyboy June 3, 2009 4:14PM
        
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        Pregnancy centers
        
        I know of at least two crisis pregnancy centers in my city that have been extremely generous and kind in helping mothers and their children . A friend of mine had a baby and she is very poor and we went to this one place and they gave her free diapers (for months), free clothes, help with her rent, even. I donated a lot of baby stuff to them to give to moms and their kids . Pro life is about not only saving the life of the unborn, but helping out the born and their moms who are struggling to get by. Even people who support abortion should be giving to moms and babies who need help. Kindness to those who are down and out isn't a pro/anti abortion issue, it is one of goodness in a person. I have no idea if the "major" anti abortion groups help them or if the major abortion groups help them, either -- but *I* help them and that's what matters.
        
        - Jerica June 3, 2009 8:02PM
        
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        You sound like a kind hearted person
        
        and I'm certainly not attacking those individuals or small groups who do work like you expressed that you do. Unfortunately, you, or organizations like yourselves don't get enough media attention.
        The fact that you, and people like you doesn't take away my pro-choice stance but you do have a general attitude towards respecting life based on an ideal in action that I could agree with much better than those that are simply against abortion as if that process were the only action taken in the world that is against life.
        
        - mangueken June 3, 2009 9:01PM
        
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        These acts are commendable
        
        But unfortunately are not always the norm. The two "crisis pregnancy centers" in my town don't do things like give months' worth of free diapers or financial assistance. Instead, they do their work by actually, no-s*hit lying to people. Like, telling them their pregnancy test is negative, for months, in hopes that they don't find out they're pregnant until after the first trimester. Or, handing them "medical looking" literature that says if they use RU-486 to abort, they'd see their four-week-old products of conception literally swimming in the toilet, eenty-weentsy but looking like full-term infants, waving at them and crying literal tears as they are flushed away. At least three girls were given "pills" from a jar and told they had had an abortion , then when they continued to have pregnancy symptoms for weeks came in to see my doctors to find out what was wrong with them.
        
        I commend you for your actions, and the actions of all those who work to solve the problems of hunger and helplessness and destitution. If all "pro-lifers" worked and thought this way, I believe there would be a far smaller schism in the debate (and far, far fewer abortions). That you assume pro-choice folks to be uncharitable just shows that you have as many misconceptions about pro-choice advocates as they have about you.
        
        - locavore June 4, 2009 10:53AM
        
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      - Out of curiousity
        
        Do you support socialized medicine ?
        If not, why not?
        
        - quantummechanik June 3, 2009 4:36PM
        
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        are you asking me or mangueken?
        
        If you are asking me, then yes, I do support socialized medicine -- as long as it doesn't mean that my taxes go to pay for killing people.
        
        I'm not sure how it would be accomplished, but if we could get a single-payer, pro-life medical support system in place in this country, I think we'd all be MUCH better off. I also think it would lower the rates of abortion simply by making it easier for women not to be afraid that they won't be able to pay for their pregnancies and their kids ' health care after they are born.
        
        Obviously, not all pro-life people think that single-payer health care is actually the best system for supporting women and children , but many of us do.
        
        peace
        
        - dannyboy June 3, 2009 5:36PM
        
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        Two words
        
        Ask Europe.
        I heard on the radio just this morning from a Canadian gentleman who used to live in Sweden, where they have socialized medicine . He said in the community where he lived, those who had serious illnesses or injuries that needed anything greater than the most basic medical attention, would fly to Germany to get that attention.
        The problem with socialized medicine is the same as the problem with socializing other industries. No difference. When socialization occurs, competition and creativity decline severely. If there is no profit to motivate you, why bother being better than the next guy?
        I'm not saying that kind of attitude is right. But being right doesn't make it reality. The fact is, humans are motivated by a desire to succeed. And that desire is driven by the desire to live a more lavish, comfortable life style. And when you take away the money , you take away the talent. This has been shown time and again in socialist countries.
        I could go on, but I think you get the point.
        
        - LagerHead June 16, 2009 10:05AM
        
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    - Response
      
      A few comments, then I have to let this go. The state is empowered to conduct all types of activities that may be considered wrong by or for individuals (i.e., war, imprisonment, espionage, taxation, death penalty , etc.). Equating wrongful activity by the state and the individual is a false comparison. The rest of your argument is a really a straw man. For example, you state that the pro life movement does not have the moral authority to speak because they have not helped poor families to survive. That may or may not be true, but what difference does that make. You have not responded to my original argument that it is hypocritical to advocate the taking of innocent human life while at the same time advocating for leniency for individuals who knowingly and illegally take the lives of others. To put it in crude terms, why is it OK to kill babies but its not OK to kill murdering thugs. That seems to me to be hypocritical.
      
      - Dan the Man June 3, 2009 4:19PM
      
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    - You are wrong, Catholic Church does all that
      
      "How many of these anti- abortion groups have teamed up with other organizations to help poor families survive? How many scholarships are they providing for young women who have children ? How many day centers do they help run so that young mother can go out and work to provide for these "perfectly innocent children"?"
      
      The major anti Abortion group of all, the Catholic Church, partakes in every one of those activities. The remaining anti abortion groups don't have the resources.
      
      - tbcass June 6, 2009 8:29AM
      
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  - More
    
    At the same time many anti abortionists are very pro death penalty . The hypocrisy pendulum swings both ways. Any time people people become overly emotional on an issue logic goes out the window. Excessive emotionalism is extremely dangerous and is the root of most of the problems in society .
    
    - tbcass June 6, 2009 8:25AM
    
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    - Even more
      
      The argument comparing abortion and the death penalty is old, tired, and ridiculous. You're comparing killing an unborn child with the likes of Charles Manson, the BTK Killer, and other scum. Serial killers deserve to die. Now, I'm only 35 years old, but so far I haven't met an infant that I would say deserves to die.
      
      - LagerHead June 16, 2009 2:48PM
      
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      - even application
        
        It is easy to point to Charles Manson and others as examples of the worst of humanity... but that ignores how unevenly the death penalty is applied. It is overwhelmingly used on racial minorities, and the poor.
        
        Supporting the death penalty means that you are comfortable with the idea that innocent people WILL be killed by the government.
        
        - MrBook June 16, 2009 8:25PM
        
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        Wrong again
        
        I wasn't aware that whites were a racial minority in the U.S. Since 1976 57% of defendants executed in the U.S. were white.
        http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-death-row-inmates-executed-1976 #defend
        But let's not confuse the rhetoric by introducing facts.
        And no, I am not "comfortable" with innocent people being put to death. However, the number of those who are thought to be innocent after being put to death is very low, and even fewer have been proven. (I didn't say none, but I haven't been able to find any). That being said, I still support the death penalty in the most heinous of crimes. You won't change my mind, but you're welcome to try.
        
        - LagerHead June 16, 2009 11:42PM
        
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        Innocent people
        
        As long as there is a possibility that even one innocent person will be executed (and trust me, it has happened many times) I will oppose the death penalty . The fact that innocent people on death row have been exonerated is certainly proof enough that innocents have been executed. To believe otherwise is naive. It's amazing that you can accept killing a few innocent people to insure that guilty ones are executed.
        
        On the black/white thing. Since the average % of whites in the US since 1976 is in the order of 85% but only 57% of those executed were white shows a very large racial disparity. Be careful how you use statistics since it can come back to bite you.
        
        - tbcass June 17, 2009 5:55AM
        
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- A couple of point.
  
  It wasn't murder - it was post-birth abortion .
  And I, myself, am not " pro-life ", I'm anti-abortion. I believe in the defense of the innocent, not the guilty.
  
  - twizneski June 4, 2009 7:23PM
  
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