By Laurie Higgins, Director of IFI's DSA,
Illinois Family InstituteChastity Bono's publicist announced that Chastity is pursuing a "sex change." Chastity, as everyone knows, is the only daughter of Cher and the deceased Sonny Bono. Many years ago, Chastity made the decision to embrace
homosexuality, and as of March, she has begun the process of "changing sexes."
Of course, rational people realize that changing one's name, cross-dressing, ingesting hormones naturally produced by the opposite sex, and electively amputating healthy parts of one's sexual anatomy don't really change one's biological sex. The emperor was really wearing no clothes, and Chastity, who has assumed the moniker "Chaz," will always really be a woman.
It's utterly confounding that society en masse believes or pretends to believe that "transgenderism" reflects a real phenomenon of people actually trapped in the wrong body rather than a profound disruption in the development of a secure and proper sexual identity. Doctors who perform such surgeries are engaging in medical malpractice and violating the increasingly meaningless and antiquated Hippocratic Oath.
Governments and governmental bodies like departments of motor vehicles that permit people to formally change their sex on
legal documents collude in fraud.
And friends, family members, schools, and churches that participate in the sexual confusion of "transgenders" lack both wisdom and compassion.
Someone who demonstrates both the wisdom and compassion so sorely needed in this time so suffused with sexual sin and the suffering it entails is Dr. Russell Moore, Dean of the School of Theology and Senior Vice President for Academic Administration at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He also serves as a preaching pastor at Highview Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky.
He has written an important and compelling
document on how the
church should respond to those who have had the woefully misnamed "sex reassignment surgery." Unfortunately, this issue will increasingly affect the church as society increasingly affirms sexual confusion. I should clarify that it is unfortunate that the phenomenon of transgenderism is increasing, but it will be a good thing if those who experience such torment someday find themselves in the pews of a Bible-believing church where they can experience the forgiveness and healing that comes from submission to Christ. The church needs to be ready and waiting for them with open arms.
Please read Dr. Moore's important document, send it to all the church leaders you know, and pray that Chastity Bono never has the surgery.
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OPINON: Chastity (Chaz) Bono, Transsexuality and the Church
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Pray for yourself
Instead of praying for Chaz Bono, you should pray for yourself to be rid of your religious delusions, hypocrisy, and hate. Why would you judge someone you don't even know? Why do you persist in thinking that submission to an imaginary being in a make-believe book will bring everyone happiness? Religion and belief in the supernatural have been the cause of murderous campaigns against people since the dark ages. Go back to your cave and take all your perverted 'christian' ministers and priests with you.
- Enlightened1
June 12, 2009 1:09PM
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You missed the point
The point of the argument was that the church needs to be ready for people who have been misled into thinking that they were born of the wrong sex. There was no judging on the part of the author, only yours. By the way, your argument about murderous rampages has nothing to do with the message of the article. In essence, your saying that because some religious people are bad, the message of religion is bad. The message is the message. Salvation through Christ. If more people were saved, the world would be a happier place. You sound pretty hate filled yourself. Should we believe that all pro transexuals spread hatred and animosity to religion (Christianity in particular)? I would encourage you to read this make-believe book. You may find that you are truly enlightened.
God bless you.
- djshawman
June 12, 2009 1:21PM
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pay attention to history
And I suggest that in addition to your Bible you (and the author of this article) read the medical journals that have been written on transgendered people.
It is widely held now that transgender people are just that. That while in the womb there is an influx of hormones into the brain that literally causes the brain to be one gender while the body may be another. Basically, it's one of the many things that can happen during the development of a fetus that some may consider to be "abnormal" and since you can't change the brain, it's much easier (and safer) to change the body.
Please also look at history (and particularly the history of the Christian church ) in regard to most mental/neurological illnesses including depression, schizophrenia, and even epilepsy. All of those conditions at one point or another were thought to be the devil or demons taking over a person's body which was "allowed" because the person suffering from these disorders didn't pray hard enough and if they just went to church more or if their church viewed them with compassion and prayed for them, they would be fine.
Most modern people now find this absurd and realize that there are treatments and medications out there that can "correct" these conditions. Hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgery is that treatment for transgendered individuals today.
On another note, gender identity and sexual preference have nothing to do with one another.
And if your argument is in regard to hormone therapy and "mutilating" surgery and how it is "unnatural", maybe the church should take a look at and target the thousands upon thousands of "normal" Christian (or otherwise) men and women who get mutilating plastic surgery for parts of their bodies they don't like and for those going through hormone replacement therapy after menopause, cancer treatment, etc. Considering that if the argument is that that's the way God planned out your life, who are you to take medical steps to correct it?
I've read the Bible. Isn't there something in there about casting stones?
- ponyboy74
June 12, 2009 1:44PM
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healing
Ponyboy74-- I appreciate the careful thought that goes into your argument, but I have to disagree with your reasoning.
I have had personal experience with mental illness that you claim was demonized by the church . After a few years of treatment as understood by mental health experts I was completely healed by God.
I agree with the author that people can be healed in ways that science cannot help. Church goers need to reach outside their comfort zones to embrace people like Chastity. You are right- in the name of God people do terrible things. God's people are often rotten, mean, and myopic, just as you claim, but there isn't a prejudiced, sexist, or hateful part of God. People might do things in his name contrary to his nature, but it is not his intention.
So often people like Chaz seek a worldly solution for a terrible internal conflict, but I believe that it is this temporal suffering which brings us to a place where we can go to God to be healed.
- Nomadt
June 12, 2009 2:24PM
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Did any of you actually READ the referenced article by Moore?
Of course you didn't. Vis a vis his "non-judgemental" advice to a hypothetical transgendered person:
"My counsel would be... to make sure she understands that part of the sin she’s walking away from is a root-level rebellion against the Creator. God’s creation is good, and he does not create generic persons but “male and female,” in his own image (Gen 1:27). In seeking to “become” a woman, John has established himself as a god , determining the very structure of his createdness."
"He should see himself as the equivalent
of a biblical eunuch, someone wounded physically by his past sin, but awaiting wholeness in the resurrection from the dead."
Dr. Russell Moore
Thank goodness for 'wisdom and compassion!' It does clearly imply that if you are born with any kind of birth defect, you should just live with it, otherwise you are playing god.
You people who think you have been healed by a god need to take a hard look at yourselves and your mental health . That is called a DELUSION. You aren't any different than people in the past that believed in Zeus, Baal, or Horus.
I know, I know, but YOUR god is the real thing! You have a book that proves it! Some of the truths of the bible (which, btw, I have read extensively, as a now-recovering xtian):
"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18)
If you killed your son because god told you to, would everyone just think "Wow, that guy is really faithful?"
"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
So, rape and selling of women is ok, because the word of god says it in YOUR bible?
And, how do you feel about slavery? "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
My point: with all the abuses that religulous people have inflicted on humanity over the years, it's time for rational people to speak up and be heard. We are not going to allow you to get away with judging, interfering with, and eventually, when you aren't stopped, murdering those who don't agree with you.
- Enlightened1
June 12, 2009 3:23PM
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reply
I am very glad that God healed your mental illness problems. God has done many miracles in my life as well. He did not, however, "cure" me of Transsexualism or change my sexual orientation. The more I prayed to be healed, the more tormented I became and almost ended up committing suicide because I could not be the person that the church told me God wanted me to be.
Why was I not healed? I believe it is because I am exactly the person that God created me to be.
I do not believe in a fundamentalist/ literal interpretation of the Bible. It can not hold up to logic. For example, there are at least two different creation accounts. In one, God created Adam, then all the animals for his companion and when He was not satisfied took the rib of Adam and made Eve. In the other, God creates the heavens and earth etc. On the sixth day made man and woman and rested on the 7th day.
I could go on, but you get the point.
The Bible is an inspired book written by men and subject to the culture and knowledge of the day. Re-translations are also subject to the bias of the authors emmanting from the culture that they was raised in.
For example, the Sodom and Gommorah story has long been used to vilify homosexuality when in reality the story is about rape and inhospitality to foreigners and strangers and people who are different. The fact that it is homosexual rape is really irrelevant and yet cultural bias has used that story to condemn Gays and Lesbians..
The Christian Church should repent for their treatment of GLBT people. It is nothing short of hate. I think Jesus would refer to these modern day Pharisees as a "brood of vipers".
- Nikki H
June 13, 2009 12:48PM
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God?
He probably didnt cure you of any mental illness because you dont have any... Transgenderism isnt a mental illness but a physical deffect since the brain is just fine, it is infact the body that isnt matching the mind. Thus it is a physical defect not a mental one ;) -sorry for my horrible spelling and grammer btw-
- zman676
June 17, 2009 1:07AM
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The truth
is: all of this back and forth accomplishes nothing. If you are a Christian pray for the people, God is the One that has the power, you are just arguing, Obviously this is not a hobby or just a passing issue to Ponyboy. It is a very real issue and the pain that has been felt was severe. Severe enough to consider suicide, thats a big step to take to escape that pain and unhappiness. I don't know all the answers, but I know this is not helping.
- bhall
June 17, 2009 9:48PM
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Old story
about a man and a river that I'd like to tell everyone. I usually hate doing these little parables, but I think this one's actually somewhat relevant.
There's a religious man who lives next to the river. He hears on the radio one day, that there's going to be a massive flood. He closes his eyes, prays, and thinks "I'm a religious man. I prayed. G-d will protect me."
Sure enough, the waters start rising. A man in a boat paddles by and sees the religious man sitting on his roof. "Hey, you!" the man in the boat cries. "Get into this boat! I'll get you to safety!"
"I'm a religious man!" the first man responds. "I prayed. G-d loves me. G-d will save me!"
The waters keep rising. A helicopter hovers overhead. The pilot drops a ladder down. "Climb up!" the pilot shouts. "Get in, and I'll fly you to higher ground!"
"I'm a religious man!" the man on the roof replies. "I prayed. G-d loves me! G-d will save me!"
Of course, the man drowns. When he goes to meet G-d, he points at him angrily and says "Why did this happen? I prayed! I lived my life just as you told me to! Why didn't you help me?"
G-d looks back and says "I sent you a radio report, a man in a boat, and a helicopter. What are you doing here?"
- quantummechanik
June 13, 2009 6:21PM
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Parable
That was good!
- bhall
June 17, 2009 9:41PM
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Just to make it clear
the point of the story was that G-d did indeed give us something to heal us. They are called doctors . We should go to them if we're ill.
- quantummechanik
June 18, 2009 11:19AM
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Glass Houses
Cancer, epilepsy, depression, schizophrenia, have all been scientifically defined and continue to be without such controversy. Numerous times, different stories are told that there's a "gay gene" later be told, otherwise.
The controversy lies in the scientific tests that continue to contradict eachother.
No wonder there is so much controversy with the idea of "transgender" individuals.
As for "normal" christians getting mutilating plastic surgery for parts of their bodies they don't like or hormone replacement therapy after menopause, I'm just wondering ponyboy if you have yet to be prescribed a blue pill? Be careful of unsafe drops in blood pressure or I guess you could "pray" at that very moment.
- Judi Wheeldon
June 17, 2009 2:31PM
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re:glass houses
Judi,
First, if there was no scientific testing or inquiry we would NOT have the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care for transgendered individuals. Which is a scientific, psychological protocol.
Second, I have no problem with anybody doing anything to their bodies if it makes them happy and doesn't harm anybody else, which is why I don't understand why the church has their panties in a bunch about Chaz Bono getting his breasts taken off. Funny our society would have no issues if he was going in for implants instead or if he was getting a nose job!
Third, as a transgendered man, I have no need, nor use for a "blue pill." And again, if the church is so convinced that people should just live with the bodies God gave them, then men with erectile dysfunction should have the same status as people who are transgendered. Either everybody shouldn't receive treatment because that's the way God made you and what you should really be spending your time on is praying for God to heal you or to allow you to accept yourself as is or the church should accept that there is a treatment, it's none of their damn business what people chose to do with their bodies, and stop the campaign of fear/hatred.
- ponyboy74
June 17, 2009 8:41PM
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ewwww
no fear here
- Judi Wheeldon
June 17, 2009 10:05PM
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So just the hatred then
Good to know.
- quantummechanik
June 18, 2009 12:32PM
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Incorrect information
At the beginning of your remark, you seem to elude to the fact that an influx of hormones on the brain contributes to transgenderism. I think you should go back to your medical journals because there is nothing to date that factually claims that hormones are the root cause of transgendered thinking. I know of several individuals who changed from being a man to a woman and then faced the reality that this is not what should have happened. They are now living back as their original gender and experience resolution in their emotions because of this going back. The medical community cannot say for any kind of sexual orientation that biology is the reason. At best, the only claim that can be made is that biology may have an influence but that environmental factors also play a part.
- BloodG
June 21, 2009 8:12AM
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reply
I am a Christian and a post-operative Transexual. Thankfully, I did not follow the advice that you are espousing or I would most likely be dead now from suicide.
I think you need to be very careful about practicing medicine without a license by giving psychological advice. Your views are extremely destructive and hence dangerous to well intentioned GLBT people who are trying to live God centered lives while also coming to terms with their gender variance or sexuality.
Unless you are a person who has struggled with being Trans or Gay, I think you need to be very careful before doling out judgement. You have no idea of what you are talking about and your advice is extremely harmful to many struggling with these issues.
- Nikki H
June 13, 2009 12:31PM
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Some Mistakes Here
The original article here claims that Chastity Bono is confused. How can anyone know this unless they can read minds?
The original article accuses doctors who perform sex change procedures are committing malpractice. Can you cite one case where a doctor has been found liable for malpractice for performing a sex change procedure? I think not.
The entire article has a tone of condemnation for transgendered, and yet presents to be Christian. However, Christ said absolutely nothing in condemnation of the transgendered (or homosexuality for that matter, although the two are not the same.) And yet the Illinois Family Institute gets upset when the Southern Poverty Law Center places them on their list of hate mongering institutions. What did Christ teach was the most important Commandment? "Love thy neighbor", not "condemn thy neighbor because they may be different from us."
- RevJimSutter
June 17, 2009 11:36AM
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indeed enlightened1
Why is religion more about judgement than tolerance?
- lotusflower
June 12, 2009 3:05PM
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Too True
Ditto that, Enlightened1!!! Could not have said it better. The assumption that everyone and their mother kowtows to what lies between the pages of "THE GOOD BOOK" never ceases to amaze me. IT IS JUST A WORK OF FICTION, PEOPLE!
- hhart
June 12, 2009 5:14PM
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Pray for yourself
You assume religious delusions; you judge hypocrisy and hate. You prove nothing. Judgement can be made based on reason. In fact the genetic determinants of Bono's feminity are not altered by physical alterations. I agree that religious delusions have fueled murderous campaigns, but so has atheism (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot). Religious delusion is not the same as belief in the supernatural. Your intolerant attitude reflects what kind of world we will have if your views prevail.
- yar2009
June 13, 2009 6:07PM
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Atheism has fueled no murderous campaign
Just because three leaders who caused lots of death were atheists means nothing about WHY they did it. Religious delusions are the reason for many murderous campaigns but atheism has never been a reason. All of those leaders viewed religions as threats to their totalitarian control. All three of them could have said the words 'Anyone who pledges allegiance to a god or preist can't be absolutely loyal to me and my government!'
You see, it was about control of the people and it's very hard for a totalitarian regime to control organized religion, so organized religion became a target. Pol Pot, for instance, also targeted the intellectuals... All of them!
The Khmer Rouge wanted a stupid obediant population and killing any dissenters (literally) was all in a day's work.
Atheism is not, by the way, a motivation for anything, nor a belief system. Atheism is our answer to the god hypothesis. We simply don't believe what we've been told about gods. If you want to know what an atheist believes, 'atheist' tells you nothing.
"You must ask the right questions"
- Rice klowN
June 15, 2009 1:39PM
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atheism
I don't think you can so facilely separate those three leaders from their atheistic views. Fundamentally atheism implies force as the means of order and not reason. It is idyllic to suppose that this murderous species, absent theistic belief, will hurry to reason.
- yar2009
June 15, 2009 8:43PM
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wrong again
Atheism in no way implies force as the means of order any more than theism implies free ice cream cones as a way of life. The three leaders you point to were driven by one goal - control over masses of people. You don't find people that have killed scores of people and give there not being a god as the reason. The history books are filled to the brim with people who have killed because they thought it was what god wanted them to do. You say you cannot separate the actions of people from their not having a religion and making no statements connecting those views with the actions, yet you seem perfectly willing to separate people from their religious motivations when they state out loud "I killed these people because I found them offensive to god!"
- cityboy
June 17, 2009 12:01PM
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Right again
Your post is arguing against some fantasy person, not against me. I acknowledge people have killed supposedly in the Name of God. But if you think about the human race you should come to the conclusion that there is no evidence or precedent to suppose human beings without faith, atheists, would function rationally. If there are no eternal consquences, the guy who has the most force will rule. Survival of the fittest and all that. And I do believe that is what motivated Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot. Our species is not noted for living reasonably. Every century has its wars. This shall not cease. Atheism offers no viable alternative to what is in place.
- yar2009
July 6, 2009 4:30PM
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rationally?
>if you think about the human race you should come to the conclusion that there is no evidence or precedent to suppose human beings without faith, atheists, would function rationally.
No precedent of rational behavior or evidence to that effect of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of atheists living in the United States functioning rationally? Just because the only thing stopping you from going on a drug and booze-filled rampage of rape, theft, murder , and mattress-tag-removing is your fear of punishment by an imaginary sky creature does NOT mean that the people who have seen through the charade and decided to live a balanced and rational life in peace with their neighbors. The scandiavian countries are largely secular these days, yet they have have incredibly high levels of prosperity and low incidences of crime . I think that all by itself can provide you with both precedent and evidence. If at all possible, you should refrain from using your own thought experiments as evidence of others behavior - there are many that do not share your limited imagination.
>Survival of the fittest and all that.
Survival of the fittest is not a strategy or a goal - it is simply the result of the conditions . Social Darwinism is an unfortunately named label to excuse otherwise unacceptable behavior, and has nothing beyond the name connecting it with Darwin's evolutionary theory.
>And I do believe that is what motivated Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot.
Just because you believe that is the case does not make it so. While it is a comforting thought for you to insist that had those three men had a belief in a god , none of the atrocities they committed would have come to pass; we also have the counterexample of Hitler, who was Catholic, who happily sent millions to the concentration camps. Political aspirations of obviously unbalanced men will drive them to do the things they do regardless of imaginary punishments.
>Atheism offers no viable alternative to what is in place.
The hundreds of thousands of atheists in this country, and the many more in the rest of the world, would disagree with you. Being held hostage with threats of eternal torture for screwing up by a god who loves us isn't really a basis for rationality. Deciding that you want to live in a free, orderly, rational, and polite society free from threats of violence and eternal torture, on the other hand, is.
- cityboy
July 6, 2009 4:58PM
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Again?
>No precedent of rational behavior or evidence to that effect of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of atheists living in the United States functioning rationally?<
That some atheists live rationally is hardly a guarantee that the world population, if atheistic, would live rationally. Moreover, the extinguishing of the vast populations believing in some deity will not likely be accomplish. We can look forward to more inter-religious struggles.
>Just because the only thing stopping you from going on a drug and booze-filled rampage of rape, theft, murder , and mattress-tag-removing is your fear of punishment<
Your declaration that I live the way I do because I fear punishment is something in your head. My motivation is not punishment.
>by an imaginary sky creature<
Describing God as such is a strawman argument.
>does NOT mean that the people who have seen through the charade<
again 'charade' = mere name calling
>and decided to live a balanced and rational life in peace with their neighbors.<
No guarantee that they will in the long run live rationally. Greed and lust for power will still vie for control.
>The scandiavian countries are largely secular these days, yet they have have incredibly high levels of prosperity and low incidences of crime . I think that all by itself can provide you with both precedent and evidence.<
#1 small sample #2 these cultures are imbued with Christian values even if belief is failing.
>If at all possible, you should refrain from using your own thought experiments as evidence of others behavior - there are many that do not share your limited imagination.<
Condescension and name calling.
>Survival of the fittest is not a strategy or a goal - it is simply the result of the conditions . <
Exactly
Social Darwinism is an unfortunately named label to excuse otherwise unacceptable behavior, and has nothing beyond the name connecting it with Darwin's evolutionary theory.
What? Unacceptable behavior? Who will be the autority to define what is acceptable and on what grounds?
>Just because you believe that is the case does not make it so.<
Same to you!
>While it is a comforting thought for you to insist that had those three men had a belief in a god , none of the atrocities they committed would have come to pass;<
unintelligible (re-read it; re write it)
>we also have the counterexample of Hitler, who was Catholic,<
Whatever you want to say, Hitler was not a practicing catholic and in fact persecuted the catholics. That is a dishonest canard.
>Political aspirations of obviously unbalanced men will drive them to do the things they do regardless of imaginary punishments.<
You don't know if they are imaginary (name calling again) but the same can be said of the world if atheism was in the ascendancy. There will still be unbalanced men.
>Being held hostage with threats of eternal torture for screwing up by a god who loves us isn't really a basis for rationality.<
More of your strawmen. You do not understand the theology of Hell or Heaven. You merely mock.
>Deciding that you want to live in a free, orderly, rational, and polite society free from threats of violence and eternal torture, on the other hand, is.<
Pipedream. Again this is just a hope and I assert, a vain and empty hope.
- yar2009
July 7, 2009 12:42PM
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Mustaches and Dogs
Hitler had a mustache so that must mean every mustachioed man is a Jew hating murderer. He also owned a dog so god help us from any mustachioed man that owns a dog.
As for mustachioed, dog owning, atheists... run for the hills!!
- MrPogle
June 17, 2009 12:38PM
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Implies
Religion implies force instead of reason as a means of order far more then atheism does.
- MrBook
July 5, 2009 5:40PM
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tired
It's such a tired argument about " religion causes atrocity" or "atheism causes atrocity". In both cases the individuals or regimes using a dogma or lack of carried out their agendas. These arguments do so very little in the pursuit of ending the theist-atheist debate. Not that an end is anywhere in sight. Even if it turns out that theists are "better" people, or vice-versa, it in no way concludes the debate.
Good on you for having the patience to continue the dialog Rice, as I am far too worn out to justify the energy in doing so.
- tek June 21, 2009 2:13PM
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Enlightened needs to be reenlightened
To refer to christian ministers and priests as perverted is just cruel. Just because there is a few bad apples does not mean the whole tree is bad. Obviously you do not hang out with these people so maybe you should before you call them such ugly names. And hey if there is a God, I would be a little concerned for myself if I were you. Now try and be nice. I know that might be dificult for you. Start with the Golden Rule.
- vigilantejustice
June 17, 2009 10:08PM
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Examine your own hatred
I think it's natural to think that judgment is at the core of why someone would have the perspective in the article on Chastity Bono. The issue is not judging Chastity but the idea that there is such a thing as what is healthy and what is unhealthy; what is meant to be and what is not meant to be. In the Muslim culture, judgment is not looked down upon. It is seen as an important value. What causes you to think that your perspective on life is more important than any religion or group? You state that religion and the supernatural have been the cause of murderous campaigns against people since the dark ages. The problem with this thinking is that religion is an important part of the world's belief systems. You cannot separate religion from people. People are naturally drawn to religion and because of this you cannot eliminate religious beliefs. People are not living in a cave just because they believe in religion. That is the majority of the world of which you speak, whether it's Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. I do believe that it's not religion that is the source of murderous campaigns but human beings. Religion can increases that chance of these campaigns but if you eliminate religion, there will still be murderous campaigns. I live in a drug-infested neighborhood and religion is not the cause of the deaths and other crimes that accompany the drug culture. Lack of religion has not helped my neighborhood at all. I don't believe religion is the answer but a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Having a faith in Jesus is different though than Christianity. Because following Jesus does not result in murderous campaigns. That's where you get back to humanity and religion combined. But faith can be completely different from religion and whom you have faith in makes all the difference. I think if you investigate Jesus, you'll find there is a difference often (sadly) between the sins of the church in history and following Jesus Christ.
- BloodG
June 21, 2009 8:07AM
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thxs muchly, i'll pray for Chaz having fun afterwards
See kids , in the non-imaginary world on whose existence we CAN agree upon, Chaz will be a guy. As proved by the lovely old chaos and mayhem if if he chose to flash in ladies - or turn up there first place. In the eyes of me too - the transition would be a really counterproductive way to go with me, i'm a gay woman and this whole thing is not exactly an improvement when it comes to attraction. But as a matter of news - life isn't only about sex. Consequently the guy has my best wishes and crossed fingers. And so do you - i pray for you to grow up.
In the eyes of gods - depends, i know several. but i suppose if it doesn't count with one of them, it's a personal matter between Chaz and the particular deity ;) who knows they might talk it over a pint and settle things, it's not like gods aren't people too.
- Totentanz
June 12, 2009 4:52PM
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Incredible...
You, Laurie Higgins are what is truly wrong with this world. You live your life with blinders on, only taking in and caring about the slice of life you have chosen to live for YOURSELF. You couldn't care less about anyone else's issues. If it doesn't fit in your white-bread, Christian, Republican (I have no doubt) world view, then you see it as wrong. I defy you to spend some time with some transgendered people. See what they actually go through on a day-to-day basis...witness the constant barrage of hatred spewed on them each and every day by idiots like you. You won't do it. You don't have the guts...or the compassion to see what it's like in the real world. Go ahead and pray to Jesus to "cure" people of homosexuality or transgender issues. I have no doubt that he's shaking his head right now, totally ashamed of yet another person hating in his name.
- Breegha
June 13, 2009 1:41AM
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Rhi Bran
The transgendered people I have known have overcome great difficulties arrising from the prejudice of society , some in the medical profession, and orthodox religion . Those who claim that "God don't make no mistakes," have no way of explaining why some people are born intersexed(in older parlance - hermaphrodite). But cannot deny the physical reality. Because the disconnect between a transgendered person biological presentation and internal sexual identity cannot be seen, we must rely upon the experience of individuals. Unfortunately, this allows those who feel that transgender is an assault on their "moral" values, a way to attack. Many progressive churches already welcome transgendered persons as they are. It is the youngest who struggle with rejection by their faith communities and (sometimes) families who are most abused by the denunciation of those who cannot embrace a reality not contained within a pre-scientific book.
- Rhi Bran
June 13, 2009 3:45AM
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my views
As someone who is Transgender and also having been raised in the Christian faith, I can tell you that your views are incredibly hurtful. The views of Fundamentalist Christianity and Catholicism led to my severe depression, loss of self esteem, and considering suicide trying to reconcile my spirituality with my gender variance and sexuality. I think the Church has been so damaging to GLBT people by their narrow minded interpretation of scripture when it comes to sexuality and gender variance.
Fortunately, I began to get educated in more progressive theology and scientific journals on the etiology of gender identity and sexual orientation. It is clear that neither are a choice and that most likely the etiology is either genetic or in utero biological/ hormonal influences on the fetal brain. If a infant can be born Intersex with ambiguous physical geitialia, why is it so difficult to assume that the fetal brain can be altered to influence gender identity and sexuality?
I suggest that you do some objective research outside of the Baptist Theological Seminary. You views are at odds with the American Medical Association, American Psychiatric Association, and other mainstream scientific groups.
My faith has been shaken to it's core by Evangelical Christians and Roman Catholicism and their exclusionary theology. I think Jesus would be ashamed of the intolerance of many Christians.
- Nikki H
June 13, 2009 12:25PM
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Chastity (Chaz) Bono, Transsexuality and the Church
Dear Laurie, passionate though you clearly are, I am afraid to say that transsexuality has nothing to do with religion , God, sin or anything like that. It is as simple a matter as the colour of your skin. you are born with it and, if you believe in god, then you have to accept that God made you that way. If you pursue that line then I'd say that we transfolk are here to point up the rank hypocrisy of the established church . The reality though is that we are simply this way as part of the evolutionary process - neither good nor bad; simply reality. the fact that your church and views are so inflexible is not our problem.
you and the person you quote have taken it upon yourselves to assert that you know all about us and our condition when in reality you know nothing about us or our condition at all.
No one has given you the right to pass judgment on us and if there is a God, I fear that you are in for a sorry surprise when you meet her and realise that you have been promoting hate and evil.
I urge you to open your mind to diversity and embrace it in all its God given glory - the natural world is wonderful and would not exist but for evolution . Man would not exist but for evolution. Unfortunately I suspect you are one of those peole who is so convinced that they know it all and are "saved" that your mind is closed to anything that might cause you to question the tenets of your beliefs. Remember Galileo and the huge problems that caused the church - not your church maybe but your church is just as entrenched in its own little parochial mindset that it cannot move onward in the face of fresh knowledge ands so its only recourse is to deny and attempt to destroy that which conflicts with its precepts.
I sincerely hope that your relatives and children and grand-children all turn out to be gay lesbian intersex and transsexual - maybe then you will realise that we are all God's creatures, that she loves us all and that we are not sinners but normal folk like you imagine yourself to be.
Sarah
- Sarah Hardman
June 15, 2009 9:45AM
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Barbaric
I read the entire article and find it to be barbaric. I hate to think the stress, strain and pressure this poor woman would be under in his church . This is a typical example of Christian pastors telling people what to do and ignoring the fact that they can hear from God on their own. Also having her go off her hormones after 30 years is dangerous.
To say she has lived a "deceiving" life is such a profound slur and simply heaps more guilt on this poor woman's head. Her big mistake was not her trans status but allowing the false guilt of churchanity to dupe her. God save us from fundamentalist Christians.
- priscilla87106
June 15, 2009 11:15AM
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Areyou a hypocrite?
To the author: for gods sake I hope you didn't circumsize your children ! That against "God's desi.... Oh wait... Reads Bible... Clearly you are wrong! Unless you think we should obtain some good Jesus prayer /counseling before we... Oh wait... Where to pick and choose! Where to pick and choose! I'm so lost, maybe that's why I figured out it's all crap!
- Rice klowN
June 15, 2009 1:50PM
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Moore has no response
I read Dr Moore's document on how to deal with a transsexual church member. Before I comment on his article I need to share with Dr. Moore and others my background.
I am a former missionary, lay pastor, Bible teacher, from the fundamental Christian camp. I am trained in apologetics by the late Dr. Walter Martin, and am a bit rusty -- but can read scripture in Greek. I prayed that God would remove my condition just like Paul prayed for his condition. I have been to a NARTH / Exodus reparative therapist, it did not work for me. Only by transitioning was I able to realize complete peace in my life. I am a “very happy, well balanced” post transition transsexual. Currently, I am a skilled / hospice float nurse working in a Catholic convent. I have led a lot of dying people to Christ's loving arms as a transwoman. I am also a Stephens Minister (lay therapist) and Lord willing, will be going out on a short term mission in 2011. I am making a difference for Christ and true Christian love in this world......
Dr Moore, you state Gen 1:27 as a binary status that God made "man and woman." This verse is in the pre-fall dispensational state. There were no illnesses or entropy, no need for the church or Christ's redemptive work. All was good... till creation experienced the fall. Then there was a need for Christ's work, the church, doctors , nurses, and psychiatrist. We have many intersexed and medical conditions to prove this point. One example is Androgen Insensitivity Disorder, which has a XY chromosome condition but the person grows up female. That binary status you employ did not carry over after the fall of man.
Just as a changed soul is a sign of a spiritual transformation, a successful gender transition is evidence that the clinical treatment for transsexuality is true and correct...
In short Dr Moore, and the Illinois Family Institute, your going to have to put up a lot better argument than the ill advise you would give your trans church member. I might suggest Dr Moore, that you take the blinders off your eyes and look at the transsexual condition from a different perspective. I sure hope my rebuttal gets to Dr Moore's desk. How does the Christian church account for the many successful gender transitions in our world? Christ has graced me abundantly this side of transition. The fundamental Christian community has “no answer” to the lives I have saved (physically and spiritually) this side of transition.
TML
- TML
June 16, 2009 9:51PM
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Thanks TML...very well written reply
I've never thought about the idea that God created man as male and female therefore that gender binary is the only option available to mankind. The idea of a pre-fall gender makes sense if you believe in a literal "fall of man".
If you follow Dr. Moore's logic, then being racially different than the original Adam and Eve, would be a sin just as much as being gender variant. Considering the oldest known archeological remains of Homo Sapiens are found in Africa, most likely the first humans were black. I have no idea of what race Dr. Moore is but I'll bet he's white (and Republican) considering he's Southern Baptist...lol. In that case, he needs to turn himself black or else he's going to hell...lol.
- Nikki H
June 18, 2009 9:22AM
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I should have mentioned
I guess it is obvious but I should have mentioned that I believe in Evolution. Having been to Africa and visited the Natural History Museum in Nairobi and being a Biology major in college convinced me that Evolution makes more sense than the world beginning with Adam, Eve, and a talking serpent. The artifacts in the Nairobi Museum are incredible and trace the earliest finding of the Genus Homo, Homo Erectus, Neantherthal etc. It is impossible to deny the connecting patterns. I suppose the genetic evidence is even more compelling.
That said, I do believe in a spiritual infusion into this evolving physical being that set humans apart from other animals and made us a reflection of God.
- Nikki H
June 18, 2009 9:59AM
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TML
Hi Nikki,
I stated my rebuttal from the context of a theological response. Fundamental Christians look to the bible as a final arbiter in all matters, therefore, all responses to these people must come from that context. Someone can use scientific proof to buttress their theological argument, but science alone, sadly, they will not listen too.
The best argument for transition (HBS- transsexuality- transgender, etc) comes not from a theological response, nor does not come from the mounting medical evidence. The best argument comes from all the successful transitions in society . I know doctors , lawyers, pastors, professors, nurses and many other successful post transition professionals. If you prescribe a treatment to any condition, and it produces excellent results -- you continue using this procedure. Successful and happy transitions, as mine is, dissenters have no response too.
"If you follow Dr. Moore's logic, then being racially different than the original Adam and Eve, would be a sin just as much as being gender variant."
Not as much a sin as a fall from original design as a Christian would pose. When surgeons first started doing open heart surgery Christians were chanting, "were playing God." You can read in the headlines all the time of families, believing in faith, sadly, withholding insulin or other medically prescribed treatments in an attempt to have God cure them. Of course, witholding the medicine does not work and sadly, people die. It is impossible to get back to this original state the bible poses here on earth. The binary gender concept for many people, is not possible to achieve in this world. Instead, God has given us doctors and therapists to help people deal with whatever impairs someone's well-being. Today, you have Christians lining up for all kinds of medical treatment that not to long ago was denounced by Christianity. This goes against the very reasoning Dr Moore and Ms Higgins use to denounce transition. Why not use the medical system to treat transsexuality when all the other means ( prayer , reparative therapy, attempted suicide) I tried to remove HBS --- did not work? This line of reasoning, along with the successful transitions I mentioned, Christians and other dissenters have no valid response.
"I've never thought about the idea that God created man as male and female therefore that gender binary is the only option available to mankind. The idea of a pre-fall gender makes sense if you believe in a literal "fall of man"."
From the mindset of a fundamental Christian, it is the only context they will employ. Any response outside this context will not dissuade these people. Can transsexuality be defended from a scriptural basis, yes it can.
- TML
June 18, 2009 2:29PM
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Yeah... You go 'pray' - that'll work (lol, lol, lol)
You guys are just a little whacked out if you think ' prayer ' does anything at all. And why don'cha let people do whatever thay wish when it doesn't effect you in any way?
Pray: To ask the laws of the universe to be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy. -- Ambrose Bierce
- BrettA
June 17, 2009 12:11PM
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Yes, Virginia...
... Santa Clause and bigotry really do still exist.
Although the word "discrimination" has earned a bad rap these days, some forms, types, and degrees of discrimination or "judgementalism" are not only useful and constructive, but necessary survival tools. There's a reason the mental faculties to discriminate and judge exist in the first place. Stereotyping, for instance, is actually a useful tool... when it's applied properly in the right context.
The sort of discrimination demonstrated above, however, just doesn't happen to be one of the useful or constructive types. It doesn't enhance anyone's survival to judge the behavior and choices of people like Chaz Bono as dangerous or antisocial.
- VulcanTourist
June 17, 2009 12:21PM
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What if...
she's doing this just to be able to marry her significant other?
- Blackbird
June 17, 2009 1:03PM
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Thank you IFI for accomplishing nothing
"pray that Chastity Bono never has the surgery."
Why? It's her choice. I am deeply spiritual in my own way, but I have to say, religious fanatics worrying themselves over others' spiritual progress really pisses me off. So sexual reassignment isn't natural, so maybe Chaz Bono is making a mistake. SO?
If churches got together and squawked this much every time someone made a mistake they wouldn't have time to actually accomplish anything. The purpose of a church is not to bring people together in order to ostracize others. It has never been the purpose of ANY church.
I personally know religious gay men who do believe they were born the wrong gender. There are many ways that this could have happened, but to get a sex change is not tantamount to saying "God made a mistake."
And even though I ended up with a man, my entire life I've never cared if I ended up with a man or a woman. I think many women are like this. We love who we love. The equipment is often irrelevant. This isn't to say God didn't care enough about me to make me straight. I think women in general are more attracted to what's on the inside than men (no offense guys - you're still great.) But whether it's all God or all science is a different matter.
My point is, if IFI is Christian, then why can't they follow the example of Christ? I think the man was crystal clear when he said "thou shalt not judge" about a dozen times or so in the New Testament.
- Livvy
June 17, 2009 1:11PM
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LGBT education in Iowa
http://judiwheeldon.blogspot.com/2009/06/council-bluffs-public-schools-anti.html
- Judi Wheeldon
June 17, 2009 1:47PM
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WOW
Wow. This is exactly what I meant when I wrote in my book: The world needs God: Because there isn’t enough hate already. It is amazing to me that people feel they need to judge other people just because they think their god is right. It is amazing to me that people hide their insecurities and bigotry behind a so called all loving god just to promote their own agenda. How would you feel Laurie, if there was something physically wrong with your body that kept you constantly uncomfortable? Wouldn’t you turn to medical sciences to ease your pain? Isn’t that was Chaz is doing? Don’t judge him just because you are clearly insecure with yourself.
YOU, Christian or not, don’t have the answers for everyone else. Life is a journey and the beautiful thing about life is that we get to make our own choices. It’s the whole free agency thing, or did you miss that teaching in your Bible study? You don’t know what people are going through or even what their physical ailments are. Would you suggest to an arthritis patient that they don’t have a corrective surgery done on their hands just because it isn’t natural? Doubtful. What your suggesting is that because Chaz’s decision to change himself to feel more comfortable in his own body is synthetic and therefore is wrong. Do you drink soda? Isn’t that made with synthetic stuff? Wear eye glasses? Well that isn’t natural. And what about pantyhose? Do you wear those? SYNTHETIC. Don’t judge people, period.
- dausonlovi
June 17, 2009 2:48PM
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Here we go again...
Like another here, I am a devout Christian, who happens to also be a post-op transsexual, or as many of us prefer, a person who has survived Harry Benajamin Syndrome. Now, let me state, up front, I am not "transgender." I do not identify that way. My condition was medical, and I have been treated for it.
I read, with increasing horror, Dr. Moore's rather flawed response to such a situation. I noticed one interesting point in his presentation. Early on, he effectively cheated. He implied that "Joan" had regrets, as he has her stating that she "knows her surgery was sinful." Now, not all of us would agree. His unbiblical remark about how "Joan" was taking on the role of God is silliness. To take that position, you would have to hold that anyone who has a birth defect corrected is playing God.
No, as was pointed out by several, and was removed by Dr. Moore, it is he who is playing God, or more specifically, Holy Spirit. He presumes to present his own opinions as though they are Holy Writ. They are not.
As long as Ms. Higgins insists on forcing her views on others as though they were the Bible itself, she will only succeed in driving people away from Christ.
- Just Jennifer
June 17, 2009 6:22PM
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Christians choice of protests
It always amazes me what the Christian groups chose to protest. There are so many real needs in this world. There are 1000's of people starving, children living in poverty, child abuse, the divorce rate is skyrocketing because the heterosexuals walk in and out of marriage like changing underwear and yet the greatest thing that time can be spent on is the gay movement and if Chastity has a penis. I think we should consider whats inside not the outside. Obviously people like Chastity are miserable and to help those people these groups chose to belittle them with threats and criticism. I wonder if that would be Jesus's actions, or do you think he might try to help them. If your so concerned, use your breath to pray for them, that is if you have faith that prayer works!
- bhall
June 17, 2009 9:23PM
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Intolerance is SO Christian!
Like amputees with "phantom limb syndrome," transsexuals are at psychological odds with their aesthetic presentation to society . Leave it to Christians to misunderstand the teachings of their own savior, Jesus Christ, who supposedly preached tolerance and love.
In fact, I opened a bible today and read the first verse I saw, which happened to be Matthew 26:49. It says "And forthwith HE came to Jesus and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. [my emphasis]"
Men kissing men? Boy that Bible is full of contradiction, hypocrisy, and fantasy!
Does Leviticus 19:17 mean anything to the devout? It says, "Thou shall not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him."
Hate is so integrated into Christian dogma that those of us who actually think Leviticus 19:17 has merit are forced to reject Christianity and it's followers. I'm very proud to not be among the deluded masses embracing such evil.
- opiper June 17, 2009 10:39PM
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Intolerance is everywhere
I think it is hateful to state the mantra that 'Christianity is intolerant.' If you want to live in reality, the truth is that everyone is intolerant to some degree. We are ALL guilty of being intolerant of someone that we don't agree with.
If we want to talk about intolerance and tolerance, we also need to clarify exactly what yours and my definitions are of these terms. From my perspective, Jesus did not preach tolerance. That is a cultural value in recent years that has been thrown around and attached to people who never communicated tolerance. I think it's actually disrespectful of humans to be tolerant. Jesus taught loving people which goes far beyond tolerance. From Jesus' perspective, He taught that we should love our enemies. Our enemies obviously don't agree with us but he taught his followers to love them. He didn't say "tolerate" them. That seems so milk-toast and condescending to say you'll tolerate someone. Loving someone involves so much more of yourself and places dignity on the other person rather than a "I'll tolerate you" mentality. Respect is applied to a person. There's no respect and dignity in tolerance but there is in love.
Christians have definitely been guilty of not loving others but to apply a blanket statement to Christians, that they are all intolerant and hateful, is to live in bigotry as well. It would be the same as saying that 'all homosexuals agree on every issue all the time.' That's a ludicrous perspective. The same is true for Christians. There are many who are loving and not hateful towards anyone. You just don't necessarily see them because they aren't waving signs expressing hatred. But plenty of Christians do not hate homosexuals or transgendered individuals. Not agreeing does not mean you hate someone. It's a more mature perspective to realize that I can disagree with someone and still respect them and see them as having dignity. I'd like to encourage us to live maturely rather than slam simplistic derogatory words on each other and shut down communication. Let's keep the dialogue open and toss out name-calling and attitudes full of bigotry. That goes for all of the sides of the debate.
- BloodG
June 21, 2009 10:14AM
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Where's the Love?
I respect your assertion that all humans are capable of tolerance, I just have never met a tolerant Christian. I've met Christians who claim love is their attitude, but usually that love is reserved for themselves, not others. In my 39 years on our planet, I have yet to meet a Christian who didn't apply hate, guilt, and/or fear to their interactions with other living beings. The lack of "Christian-like" Christians in my world frustrates me, so I apologize for over-generalizing my opinion.
- opiper June 23, 2009 3:53PM
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Thanks for your thoughts
opiper,
I can respect that your experience has not been very good with Christians. Many people can say this. I guess I would hate for you to make a generalization about Christians just based upon your experience. I know some people who have never had a good experience with homosexuals and have been faced with just as hostile and rude behavior. But I think it would be inappropriate to state that all homosexuals are rude and obnoxious. My hope is that we can look at our experience as just our experience and allow there to be room for someone who doesn't fit our mold. Thanks again for your respectful response.
Brad
- BloodG
June 23, 2009 5:51PM
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My Wish As Well
Well, it appears we definately agree on something and that something sets us apart from this opinion's author (Ms. Higgins). You said "My hope is that we can look at our experience as just our experience and allow there to be room for someone who doesn't fit our mold," and I share that hope with you, passionately. I think it was that hope that compelled me to comment on Ms. Higgin's opinion initially, so thanks back at ya for meeting me half-way in the discussion.
PEACE
- opiper July 6, 2009 10:02PM
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Helping people
The Church should advise Ms. Bono and those like her to reject sexual immorality, but the Church can't expect that the reception of this advice will be well-received. Instead, the Church must expect to be vilified and rejoice when this happens.
"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you" Mark 5 v 11-12.
See, when people are bold enough to publicly insult, persecute and slander the Church for publicly professing the word of God, the degree, depth and breadth of society 's depravity is demonstrated.
What is more, in such cases the Church can't seek refuge in tolerance because there is no such thing as " free speech " if this term means "speech free of consequences". Speech has consequences. Otherwise, why would peoplespeak?
Tolerance protects speakers from the adverse consequences of what they say, particularly when what is said is unpopular, but who has ever heard of a tolerant lynch mob? Don't lynch mobs coalesce around popular hatreds, prejudices and fears, and do they not proceed to destroy the object of the same? Therefore, tolerance only protects speech that is not unpopular, which is why the Church can't rely on it.
Summing up, the Church must be the Church, doing Christ's work in faith with God's word. And should we get roughed up doing it, we should rejoice.
- Lavaux
June 18, 2009 6:07AM
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So
in your metaphor, who is the lynch mob? The people who decry the church 's position, or the church itself. Because it would probably be a good idea to ask--who actually lynches people? Who actually goes out, due to a disagreement, and kills people for it?
- quantummechanik
June 21, 2009 2:46AM
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Who is the lynch mob?
The lynch mob are those who hold popular to not unpopular views gathering together to persecute the few who hold unpopular views. Therefore, tolerance puts the heaviest burden on those whose views are popular.
As to your other questions, it's clear that you are attempting to set up claims in moral equivalence, which attempt must fail if you adhere to moral relativism. If this is not clear to you, then answer this question: What good does it do for a modest man to appologize to nudists for dropping his pants at their beach?
- Lavaux
June 21, 2009 12:18PM
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I'm no relativist
There is right and there is wrong. Sometimes, we're lucky enough to find some of those rights and wrongs codified somewhere. Other times, we have to find them for ourselves, using philosophy and moral reasoning. I don't think there's any philosophical argument that has been made around the morality of gender transition--if there is, I'd love to hear it. Around biblical arguments, the only one I could think of is around the concept of self-mutilation, but that would lead to all sorts of problems regarding surgery so it's best not to walk down that path. So why the church , any church, would have an issue with this on either moral or religious grounds is beyond me.
- quantummechanik
June 21, 2009 1:11PM
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Beyond you
The Church bases its objections to Ms. Bono's sex change on faith claims, not philosophy. To illustrate, consider 1 Corinthians 1 vs 20 - 25:
"Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength."
Get the picture? The Church keeps faith with the Gospel to expose the wisdom of every age as foolishness. Philosophy does the same thing, but instead of proposing something constant throughout all ages, philosophy simply replaces one brand of foolishness with another.
This brings us back to my original observation. At times, Christians will make popular (or not unpopular) claims, and at other times, they will make unpopular claims, but it is only during those times that they make popular (or not unpopular) claims that they can rely on tolerance.
As for Ms. Bono, contemplate this question: Does the technology providing her the option to change her sex also provide her with the means to gain self command over her sexual behavior? And while you're at it, one more question: Who is her sex change for; is it for her, or for everyone else who beholds her? But if those who behold her are not fooled by the sex change, then what is the point of the sex change?
- Lavaux
June 21, 2009 2:12PM
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So which
verse denies a person their wish to change their physical organization based on their internal ideas around gender?
Philosophy is wrong, certainly. Can you really say that the Church has been a) constant throughout the ages, and b) right throughout the ages?
Does the technology providing her the option to change her sex also provide her with the means to gain self-command over her sexual behavior? I'm not sure what you're asking here--are you asking if there's a surgical way to change one's sexual orientation? The answer is no, there is not, and any testing along those lines would be...pretty monstrous. As for why Chas is choosing to identify as a male, it could be for any number of reasons. Chas is transgendered, which means that internally, chemically, anatomically, his brain is more like a male brain than a female brain--hence the disconnect. This is for people looking at him to see a man, rather than seeing a woman. It's to BENEFIT him, but it's something done to change the viewpoint of the people around him. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but it seems to be what he wants, what he thinks is best.
- quantummechanik
June 22, 2009 2:01AM
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En passant
Which verse in the Bible denies one's wish to change one's physical orientation based on their internal ideas about gender? No verse does that because people are free to do whatever they like, which is of course one of the reasons people suffer so much.
Once you understand that the Bible diagnoses the causes of human suffering and prescribes a cure but doesn't force anyone to take it, then you should go back to my original post, which states: "The Church should advise Ms. Bono and those like her to reject sexual immorality, but the Church can't expect that the reception of this advice will be well-received."
Get the picture? I'm talking about advice based on the faith claims of the Gospel that consistently demonstrate the transitory claims of the wise to be utter nonsense. Of course, the Church has not been constant or right throughout the ages but the Gospel has, demonstrating that the Church dances on thin ice when it claims or exercises authority inconsistent with the Gospel. Put differently, why should the Gospel spare the Church? Martin Luther certainly believed it shouldn't.
Regarding my first question concerning Ms. Bono's sex change, you clumsily sidestepped it. We both know that Ms. Bono's sex change won't give her the tools to control her sexual behavior. Therefore, the sex change must be intended to justify her sexual behavior by modifying her external form to fit her sexual practices. But this justification is meant primarily for external consumption, Ms. Bono's "internal ideas about gender" notwithstanding. And what will happen when people reject the justification? Ms. Bono's sex change will be frustrated from attaining its primary goal. Hence, your claim is that I must accept Ms. Bono's justification.
This is where the Gospel exerts its power. Ms. Bono may call herself whatever she likes and undertake any medical procedure she likes to prove it to herself and others. But to me and others like me she is a woman who needs some loving advice, i.e. the Gospel, for accepting and implementing this advice is the only way she'll finally realize her full potential and find peace.
- Lavaux
June 22, 2009 3:14AM
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Wow !
It just goes to show you that Drugs can cause serious problems. This poor child is the recipient of the altered states of her parents. Just goes to show you that the gene poll can be altered by some of the Drugs out there.
- Pegleg4570
June 18, 2009 6:52AM
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So
what were you smoking ?
- quantummechanik
June 21, 2009 1:54AM
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So What
I had nothing to do with the procreation of that wayward child of the universe.
- Pegleg4570
June 21, 2009 8:00AM
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I suppose I should ask
What evidence do you have that parental drug use and transgenderedism are linked?
- quantummechanik
June 21, 2009 10:46AM
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just goes to show?
Ok Pegleg, you bring up the altered states of her parents. That is a very broad attack on your part with no actual knowledge of what, if anything, either Cher or Bono were consuming for the duration of Cher's pregnancy .
If you wish to come here with statements such as yours, please come armed. I would like references from you stating the link between transgender people and their parent's drug use . Then please bring forth some documentation as to the drug use of the parents during this time.
If you can't do that, please don't degrade the debate on these forums. Both CNN and Fox would be happy to have you post rubbish on their blogs.
- tek June 21, 2009 1:14PM
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I guess her Mind, and or DNA is not altered then?
And just what facts do you have that say she's not in an altered state?
I don't think that's Normal do you?
Please elaborate.
- Pegleg4570
June 21, 2009 4:40PM
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It's not for me
to elaborate on requesting that you provide a basis of fact in your post. I will not get into an "answer the question with a question" game with you.
Seriously, if you cannot ascertain from my post what is missing in yours, then please do not reply. I have no intention of getting snippy with anyone here as I have found this site to be, for the most part, quite intelligent.
- tek June 21, 2009 8:52PM
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reply to religitard
Why are you worried about transgenderism increasing? Are you afraid they’re going to take over the world? He,he.
- strength in numbers
June 20, 2009 9:43PM
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Let's
be less on the personal attacks, more on the keeping things civil, yeah?
- quantummechanik
June 21, 2009 3:41AM
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just for fun
Just tossing this out there for fun.
By cursory glance the plastic surgery industry is a 13-15 billion dollar industry. Assuming as is often quoted, 78% of Americans are religious. If one applied the dogma that god 's creatures are perfect or "good" then theists would not have this type of elective surgery (please allow me that I understand that not all plastic surgery is elective). So, only 12% of the U.S. population are responsible for a 13 to 15 billion dollar industry. I'm willing to wager that not's the case.
So in keeping with this argument, it's ok for the theists to have their nose shaped, their thighs sucked, their boobs enlarged, but not their sex changed. Only for the sake of debate, what is the line in the sand?
- tek June 21, 2009 2:29PM
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It's a weird paradox
There are really, really specific rules in my religion about how to change your body. No piercings, tattoos, etc. Judaism is tough on this, and it's possible that's where Christians get their ideas on that. The paradox is, despite us being not supposed to infringe on what is considered a perfect creation of G-d, and thus committing blasphemy, every Jewish male goes through a procedure that is...well, not a HUGE change, but certainly noticeable.
- quantummechanik
June 23, 2009 11:08PM
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At least you hope
it's not a huge change. That particular tradition really caught on across the religious lines. When I was born, it was done to me. The thinking was it was more sanitary. And oddly enough, the thinking still is the same. I know this because when my son was born, he had it done to him. When I was asked whether he would have it done or not, there wasn't even a thought process on my part. It was an ingrained normality. Im not really ever going to kick my self in the ass over it, but when I think about it now I am a little remiss that I didn't consider it more. Or at least learn more about it. It's just such a normal thing in our society to do. I never even once thought about it being a religious custom, but a health custom. Hopefully, he will never wake up one day and be pissed at old dad here over it.
You are, of course, right in the odd paradox. The Briss (no offense intended if I am saying that wrong, or shouldn't say it or whatnot) does seem to be a bit strange as a religious rite.
- tek June 24, 2009 7:01AM
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It's actually kind of interesting
The Bris isn't just a ritual for the baby. It's a test for the parents. See, the idea is that you have to be somewhat tough to be a parent, you have to know when to help and when to let them stand on their own. There needs to be some degree of hard-heartedness to be an effective parent. So, the idea is that if you can give your child to this guy that you don't know, watch and trust the guy enough to take a little bit off of your child, and not rush to the child's defense, punching out the moyl who's conducting the bris, and escaping by swinging on a chandelier (actually, that would be pretty cool) you'll be a good parent.
- quantummechanik
June 24, 2009 1:16PM
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That's a very interesting
perspective on the Briss, and one that I have never heard. It's difficult to accept that rite for someone that cannot place a religious significance on it. I only mean that in the sense that the baby is already eight days old and I have to imagine he is not particularly enjoying that ceremony. So to an outsider who doesn't feel the mandate from a god to carry this out, it's seems rather barbaric. Please note that I am in no way passing any judgement, just observation.
- tek June 25, 2009 7:26AM
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Old joke
"My Bris? Oh, yeah, it was traumatic! Afterwards, I couldn't walk or talk for a year!"
It's not too bad. The baby doesn't cry any longer than usual, most of the time. They give you wine first.
- quantummechanik
June 25, 2009 10:06AM
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drunken chandelier swinging
"They give you wine first". At least that explains how more parents can tolerate it.
- tek June 25, 2009 12:24PM
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