In a recent interview on NPR, former Texas Governor Mark White discussed his lack of faith in the ability of the legal system to reliably handle death penalty cases, and emphasized the seriousness of handing down an irreversible sentence to a person who may later be proven innocent. While he was Governor, he oversaw a significant number of executions, but White now believes that: ”What I see in retrospect is that our system is not as foolproof as I think it should be in order to carry out a punishment that’s irreversible.”
White also stated that he has never believed in the death penalty as a deterrent, because: “Obviously, with 400 people on death row, there’s at least 400 people up there that didn’t deter.”
As Amnesty International observed, Governor White’s evolution on this question is part of a national trend: “As advances in DNA and forensic science have revealed the extent to which our criminal justice system is prone to error, judges, jurors, the public, and even some politicians, have begun to question the wisdom of resorting to capital punishment.”
White’s statements (he’s a Democrat) also come at a particularly bad time for current Governor Rick Perry, who, in the middle of a re-election campaign, is now being scrutinized for his role in the execution of Cameron Todd Willingham, who appears to have been innocent and wrongly put to death.
In the past, you would only pay a political price if you didn’t support the death penalty strongly enough. But in Texas, as everywhere else in the U.S., times have changed, and it would be quite something if the most prolific executing Governor in modern history wound up suffering politically because he supported the death penalty too much.
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OPINION:Former Texas Gov. Mark White Now Doubts Death Penalty
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Cameron Todd Willingham
We can only hope that Cameron Todd Willingham will be the name that brings the barbaric practice of the death penalty to an end.
- MrBook
October 29, 2009 6:03PM
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barbaric?????
What about the victims of these monsters.. the penalty should fit the crime ... Someone who murders or rapes a child or other henious crimes should be put to death.....they are the barbarians and if some had been put to death instead of being let out free maybe a lot of innocent people would be alive...
- cbooh
October 29, 2009 11:12PM
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innocent people
And if you kill mistakenly kill someone who did not commit the crime ? Then you have hurt two families, and left the real criminal free to do as that criminal sees fit...
- MrBook
November 3, 2009 4:53PM
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dont change my mind
i still say if the scum get off the street that are killing our children and women it is worth it..
- cbooh
November 5, 2009 9:10PM
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The entire anti-death-penalty argument is faulty.
Humans oversee the death penalty . Humans are not perfect. We make mistakes. The anti-death-penalty people tend to forget this fact, likely due to thinking they themselves are perfect.
Mistakes are bound to occur. Tragic as they are, they are going to have to be acceptable errors made by imperfect beings.
The argument against the death penalty is simple: "Since errors occur, the practice must be stopped." This is unrealistic and its logic, if applied to any other human practice, would dictate that all other human practices must likewise be stopped.
It is the Nirvana Fallacy. Google it.
- SolarSanitizer
October 30, 2009 4:28PM
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cost
The point is not that mistakes are made, but that the risk of killing an innocent citizen far outweighs any benefits gained from the death penalty .
The only thing that the death penalty does is satisfy an atavistic desire for revenge.l
- MrBook
November 1, 2009 12:14AM
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I think your comment ignores
The innocents whose deaths are being punished by the death penalty and the lives of the families.
I propose you walk a mile in their shoes before you talk about atavistic desires. It is a real travesty that you would deny them their due in order to prevent a statistically improbable "innocent" being put to death.
We know of 10 such cases of possibly innocent people executed.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent
This is really not enough to justify dismantling the death penalty. You only use it because you are already against the death penalty, and this is a vehicle you use to try and prove that your position is the correct one.
It also ignores the real benefits to society . Prevention of repeated crime , for example. We also have to accept that there are likely innocent people in prisons . We should seek to protect those populations from the worst of the offenders. It is also less of a financial burden on society; or would be if the process was not bogged down by attitudes like yours gumming up the works. Nobody needs 20 years of appeals. That's ridiculous, it's unduly expensive, and it is cruel to the inmate and his peers.
The whole "innocents die too" argument is a non-starter. I am surprised when otherwise smart people employ it. It is usually used when a person who already dislikes killing murderers (due solely to their minority status in society) tries to make the case against the death penalty.
- SolarSanitizer
November 1, 2009 10:18AM
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justify
“I propose you walk a mile in their shoes before you talk about atavistic desires. It is a real travesty that you would deny them their due in order to prevent a statistically improbable "innocent" being put to death.”
If my desire for revenge trumped my desire to protect innocent people then I will .
We know of 10 such cases of possibly innocent people executed.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent
“This is really not enough to justify dismantling the death penalty . You only use it because you are already against the death penalty, and this is a vehicle you use to try and prove that your position is the correct one.”
Actually I was pro-death penalty up until I realized the way that it was applied (biased against the lower economic classes and ethnic minorities) and that it does not impact the crime rate.
“It also ignores the real benefits to society . Prevention of repeated crime , for example.”
We have been over this elsewhere… There is no demonstrated link between the death penalty and a lower murder rate.
“We also have to accept that there are likely innocent people in prisons .”
Yes, and prison reform is another very interesting topic… but if the person is alive then they at least have a chance at doing something. Once your dead that’s the end of it.
“We should seek to protect those populations from the worst of the offenders. It is also less of a financial burden on society; or would be if the process was not bogged down by attitudes like yours gumming up the works. Nobody needs 20 years of appeals. That's ridiculous, it's unduly expensive, and it is cruel to the inmate and his peers.”
How cruel would it be to execute an innocent man without giving him time to prove his innocence?
“The whole "innocents die too" argument is a non-starter. I am surprised when otherwise smart people employ it.”
I suppose it depends on your view of justice in society. I see the goal of justice is the protection of the innocent, not the punishment of the guilty.
“It is usually used when a person who already dislikes killing murderers (due solely to their minority status in society) tries to make the case against the death penalty.”
Not in my case… I’m a 30 year old college educated white guy from an upper middle class family.
- MrBook
November 2, 2009 8:26PM
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Dense for a smart guy.
“'It also ignores the real benefits to society . Prevention of repeated crime , for example.'
We have been over this elsewhere… There is no demonstrated link between the death penalty and a lower murder rate."
Prevention of repeated crime is 100% guaranteed in each and every case of the application of the death penalty. It has a perfect success rate.
"How cruel would it be to execute an innocent man without giving him time to prove his innocence?"
When we look at the 10 "executed innocents" which exist in America, we see that the average time they spent on death row was just under 11 years.(10.88) They all had time. So don't give me that crapola.
"I suppose it depends on your view of justice in society. I see the goal of justice is the protection of the innocent, not the punishment of the guilty."
How would you feel if you had a chance to look across a courtroom at the person who murdered your child/wife/sibling?
“'It is usually used when a person who already dislikes killing murderers (due solely to their minority status in society) tries to make the case against the death penalty.'
Not in my case… I’m a 30 year old college educated white guy from an upper middle class family."
I meant: (due solely to the murderer's minority status in society) when I said "their". But, of course you are an upper-middle class college graduate. When you grow up some more, you'll find your experiences in life will tend to shape your ideologies toward the conservative direction. You will recognize real-world realities like:
- You can't protect society from the "bad-guys" with a reactionary police mentality as opposed to proactive.
- Criminals actually do consider the gravity of the punishment for murder, even if the bleeding-heart liberal websites you visit in order to fuel your opinions might disagree.
- The good of the many really does outweigh the good of the few, even if they are black, or any other minority.
- SolarSanitizer
November 2, 2009 9:17PM
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Density
“Prevention of repeated crime is 100% guaranteed in each and every case of the application of the death penalty . It has a perfect success rate.”
Sure, but by that logic it would be a good idea to walk through county lockup with a flamethrower.
“They all had time. So don't give me that crapola.”
And since we now know that the burden of evidence was not enough to justify their conviction we know that they did not have enough time to make their case.
“How would you feel if you had a chance to look across a courtroom at the person who murdered your child/wife/sibling?”
Again… appealing to emotion here, not logic.
Would I know for sure, for absolutely 100%, no doubt, no hesitation, that that person was the one responsible?
“I meant: (due solely to the murderer's minority status in society ) when I said "their". But, of course you are an upper-middle class college graduate. When you grow up some more, you'll find your experiences in life will tend to shape your ideologies toward the conservative direction. You will recognize real-world realities like:”
Actually I’ve been drifting leftwards since I was in college. Back then I was pretty far right (though since organized religion and I have never been on speaking terms I could never really be a true conservative). Strangely, these discussions with you on the death penalty seem like me arguing with my younger self on this issue...
“- You can't protect society from the "bad-guys" with a reactionary police mentality as opposed to proactive.”
How do you proactively bust people for crimes if they have not committed a crime yet?
“- Criminals actually do consider the gravity of the punishment for murder , even if the bleeding-heart liberal websites you visit in order to fuel your opinions might disagree.”
Then you can show me the statistics that show that the murder rate is lower in states that have the death penalty.
“- The good of the many really does outweigh the good of the few, even if they are black, or any other minority.”
That does not justify a bias in executions that targets minorities… you are not protecting the good of the many when you do that.
- MrBook
November 3, 2009 4:57PM
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