Anger in the Church

By Illinois Family Institute , Upholding Marriage and Family - July 26, 2009

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By Laurie Higgins, IFI DSA | Illinois Family Institute

There are some battles in which all Christians and all who are committed to truth are called to engage: all Christians should have opposed slavery; all Christians should have fought for the civil rights of blacks; all Christians are called to oppose abortion; and we are all called to oppose the rancorous, pernicious demands to affirm homosexual acts as moral. The question as to why so many Christians, particularly church leaders, refuse to engage in this battle is a vexing question. Leon Podles has provided the answer to that vexing question in the July 2009 issue of Touchstone magazine in an article entitled "Unhappy Fault: on the Integration of Anger into the Virtuous Life." Dr. Podles' article is of critical importance to both the life of the church and Amercan society.

In his book Kingdoms in Conflict, Chuck Colson writes about the failure of the church to oppose the extermination of Jews and the government usurpation of control of the church in Nazi Germany. Immediately following the naming of Hitler as Chancellor of Germany, the persecution of the church began in earnest. In response, a resistance movement sprang up headed by Martin Niemoller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Initially, they had the support of the dominant Protestant group, the German Evangelical Church, but as the persecution increased, so did the cowardice and concomitant rationalization of cowardice on the parts of most church leaders. In Germany only a remnant, who came to call themselves the Confessing Church, remained standing courageously in the gap for truth.

  • The German Evangelical Church acted in ways most Christians now view as ignoble, selfish, and cowardly:

  • Pastors resigned from the resistance out of fear that they might lose their positions in the church.

  • Frightened by the boldness of the resistance movement, church leaders issued public statements of support for Hitler and the Third Reich.

Some pastors believed that a "'more reasonable tone would be more honoring to those with different views.'" One bishop told Martin Niemoller that those pastors who refused to join the resistance were "'trying to bring peace to the church'" rather than "'seem like . . . troublemakers.'" In response, Niemoller asked "'What does it matter how we look in Germany compared with how we look in Heaven?'" The bishop responded, "'We cannot pronounce judgment on all the ills of society. Most especially we ought not single out the one issue that the government is so sensitive about.'" In a conversation with Dietrich Bonhoeffer, one young pastor justified capitulation like this: "'. . . [T]here are no pastorates for those of us who will not cooperate. What is the good in preaching if you have no congregation? Where will this noncooperation lead us? We are no longer a recognized body; we have no government assistance; we cannot care for the souls in the armed forces or give religion lessons in schools. What will become of the church if that continues? A heap of rubble!'"

What is alarming about the account of the German Evangelical Church's reprehensible failure is its similarity to the ongoing disheartening story of the contemporary American church's failure to respond appropriately to the spread of radical, heretical, destructive views of homosexuality. Don't we today see church leaders self-censoring out of fear of losing their positions or their church members? Don't we see churches criticizing those who boldly confront the efforts of homosexual activists to propagandize children and undermine the church's teaching on homosexuality? Aren't the calls of the capitulating German Christians for "a more reasonable tone" and a commitment to "honor different views" exactly like the calls of today's church to be tolerant and honor "diversity"? Don't pastors justify their silence by claiming they fear losing their tax-exempt status (i.e. government assistance)? Don't they rationalize inaction by claiming that speaking out will prevent them from saving souls?

What is even more reprehensible in America, however, is that church leaders don't currently face loss of livelihood, imprisonment, exile, or death, as they did in Germany, and yet they remain silent.

The church's failure to respond adequately to the relentless and ubiquitous promulgation of profoundly sinful ideas reveals an unbiblical doubt in the sovereignty of God; an unconscionable refusal to protect children; a willful ignorance of history; and a selfish unwillingness to experience the persecution and hatred that God has promised the followers of Christ that we will experience and that we should consider joy.

Who do we look to for inspiration today? Is it the cowardly, apostate, accommodationist, jejune, impotent, emasculated church that feebly attempts to justify its refusal to speak, or is it God's church, that which Martin Luther King Jr., William Wilberforce, Martin Niemoller, and Dietrich Bonhoeffer loved and sacrificed their comfort and lives to defend?

We reassure ourselves that if we had lived during the age of slavery or in Germany during the rise of Nazism or during the post-Civil War era when virulent racism still poisoned American life, we would never have stood idly by and done nothing, but I'm not so sure. Look at the church's actions today when homosexuality and gender confusion are affirmed to and in our nation's children through our public schools using our hard-earned money. Where is the church? Where is the outrage? Where are the church leaders who rejoice in being persecuted?

I've asked this question before and I will ask it again: How depraved does the behavior have to be and how young the victims before the church, starting with those who have freely chosen to assume the mantle of pastor or priest, will both feel and express outrage at the indecent, cruel, and evil practice of using public money to affirm body and soul-destroying ideas to children?

Will the contemporary American church rise to this occasion to defend children and biblical truth, or will we become like the acquiescent church that failed to help William Wilberforce battle slavery, or the atrophied "moderate white church" that failed to help Martin Luther King Jr. battle racism, or the apostate Protestant church in Nazi Germany that failed to help Martin Niemoller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer battle Nazism?

And why is this happening again? Leon Podles, author of the books The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity and Sacrilege, senior editor of Touchstone: A Journal of Mere Christianity, and founder of the Crossland Foundation, has identified, rightly in my view, the central problem, the problem that infects the church and prevents it from being salt and light in a fallen, suffering world and that renders the church complicit in the destruction of countless lives:

Dr. Podles writes that "Christians have a false understanding of the nature and role of anger. It is seen as something negative, something that a Christian should not feel."

He expresses what should be obvious: we should "feel deep anger at evil, at the violation of the innocent, at the oppression of the weak."

He describes the suppression of hatred and anger as "emotional deformation" and exhorts the church to remember that "growth in virtue," which must include the integration of "all emotions, including anger and hate," is the "goal of the Christian's moral life."

Dr. Podles quotes Catholic psychiatrist Conrad Baars who had been a prisoner under the Nazi regime:

'. . .[T]here is a is difference between a person who knows solely that something is evil and ought to be opposed and the one who in addition also feels hate for the evil, is angry that it is corrupting or harming fellow-men, and feels aroused to combat it courageously and vigorously.'How often do we hear in our churches anything akin to the idea expressed by early church father John Chrysostom: "'He who is not angry, whereas he has cause to be, sins. For unreasonable patience is the hotbed of many vices, it fosters negligence, and incites not only the wicked but the good to do wrong.'"


And wouldn't the church and society look very different if they embodied Dr. Podles' conviction that "sorrow at evil without anger at evil is a fault."
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OPINION: Anger in the Church

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  • SolarSanitizer
    Should a Christian Church fight homosexuality?

    I am not sure how a church can "fight" homosexuality . I think they can condemn it; much as they would anything else they view as against God's teachings.

    But fight it?!

    How does someone fight against how someone else /is/?

    Would it make sense to suggest a group fight against those with 'outie' belly buttons? Or against those who don't like the taste of black licorice? This concept of fighting how a group of people /are/ makes little sense to me. Maybe I'm a dummy.

    My evolved opinion on the entire homosexuality debate is pretty straightforward:

    The state cannot force the church to recognize it and the church cannot force the state to disavow it. Everything else is none of the others' business.

    - SolarSanitizerUS July 26, 2009 6:20PM

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    • countryboy
      all need the word

      Their are homosexuals in the church .Why would you want to fight with them.Not one sin is any better then the other!
      Homosexuals need the word just like anyone else.
      Jesus came for all even homosexuals.

      - countryboyUS July 26, 2009 8:28PM

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      • Nikki H
        reply

        Well, first of all I do not believe being born gay is a sin any more than being born left handed. However, even if you do mistakenly buy into the belief that homosexuality is a sin, I totally agree that the Church is for ALL not just for people who are similar to you and that you feel comfortable with.

        - Nikki HUS July 29, 2009 12:39PM

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        • countryboy
          The word is life

          Thats the only christ like way.Ever one is welcome come as you are.

          - countryboyUS July 29, 2009 5:42PM

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      • angelmama
        Would you tell a drug dealer that they could

        come to Jesus Christ and be saved? Yes But would you tell that same drug dealer that they had to stop dealing drugs if they are to live a Christian life? Yes. No difference.

        - angelmamaUS August 8, 2009 10:42PM

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        • countryboy
          No need to tell drug dealer.

          You would not need to tell him.God will deal with him.Just keep him in the word and keep him in prayer . Jesus will deal with him.
          Let your light shine so they can see Jesus in you. Just preach the Work.

          - countryboyUS August 9, 2009 2:48PM

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          • angelmama
            I disagree

            A church is no place for drug dealing and fake Christianity and if someone is dealing drugs the elders of the church need to go to them and tell them to stop it.Its what the Bible says to do.

            - angelmamaUS August 10, 2009 11:02AM

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            • countryboy
              Drug dealer

              If he is a brother in Christ yes you would need to talk with him.But if he is a new christian you dont want to chase him away.God will deal with him. Let him stay and grow.
              As a Christian preacher I want my church full of drug dealers,to hear the word!Jesus will deal with them through hearing the word.And the Holy Spirit fill him with truth.

              - countryboyUS August 10, 2009 5:28PM

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    • mozarts390
      Fighting Homosexuality!!

      It is no more possible to fight homosexuality that to fight gravity. Or air pressure or the tides. Homosexuality, like heterosexuality is a sexual orientation , an unchanging trait or characteristic of human existence Neither is better than the other in any way (if you can even make such a comparison.)In themselves sexual orientations are morally neutral. Trying to change one's orientation is impossible.

      - mozarts390US August 26, 2009 2:27PM

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      • mozarts390
        The Recent APA Statement - Aug, 2009

        At the2009 vonvention of the American Psychologcal Association, a deinitive statement was issued concerning the inadvisability and ineffectuality of attempting to change sexual orientation. Their determiniation advised theapists not to attempt such change, as it does not work, and in fact may be hermful. Fo more information, read here:
        http://www.apa.org/releases/therapeutic.html


        - mozarts390US August 30, 2009 1:20PM

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  • MrBook
    the king of all Godwins Laws...

    Comparing homosexuality to Nazism? Is there anything further off base?

    The Homosexual movement has nothing in common with National Socialism... They are just seeking the same rights and privileges that heterosexuals already enjoy.

    - MrBookUS July 26, 2009 9:40PM

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  • noon
    Excellent Article

    You are brilliant, Ms. Higgins. Please continue to speak the truth!

    - noonUS July 27, 2009 12:30PM

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    • Nikki H
      reply

      Although I seriously doubt that you will, I would encourage you to read some alternative view points on the subject. You may realize that Ms. Higgins represents a very extreme point of view which is in conflict with the essential message of Christ. The problem is that the people with this conservative viewpoint refuse to examine any other viewpoint because they feel it is "Satanic" or "unchristian". This is a tactic well honed by religious cults and is called "brainwashing".

      - Nikki HUS July 29, 2009 12:45PM

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    • homogenius
      You can't call this the truth...

      When it plays fast and loose with the facts. It is incredibly offensive to compare the movement for LGBT civil rights to the Nazis. Gays and Lesbians were among the victims of the Nazi genocide--over 50,000 died in the camps.

      Christians are not an oppressed minority. Nobody is taking your rights away. If you don't believe in same-sex marriage --don't have one! Nobody is advocating that your church be forced by law to perform same-sex marriages or accept gay people. But you don't have the right to enshrine your sect's beliefs (and you don't speak for all churches or all christians) into law.

      This article does not speak the truth--it mangles the truth beyond recognition.

      - homogeniusUS August 25, 2009 12:53PM

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  • TheCatholicHeretic
    Fight Sin versus Oppose Sin

    I believe our responsibility as Christians is to actively oppose sin in any form. Just as an infant cannot understand physics a non-Christian cannot understand our faith. We are to educate them, enlighten them and primarily love them.

    As Christians we understand that sin is sin. Period. If I steal a pen from the supply room at work, where there are thousands of them, I have just committed a sin that is just as abhorrent as killing 6 million Jews. A non-Christian sees this as absurd, the two cannot be equated. They cannot see beyond this life. It's all they have and they will cling to it with all their might. Christians don't or shouldn't cling to this life. We are merely passing through on our way to heaven. We have an obligation to those around us to teach them the way. To open their eyes and ears to the truth. Some will, some won't but it is our attempt that is important. Matthew writes in chapter 5:13-16 that Jesus said,

    "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

    You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.”

    Fighting sin does no one any good. Oppose sin in every form, love your neighbor and above all love God.

    In Christ Jesus

    TCH

    - TheCatholicHereticUS July 27, 2009 12:35PM

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    • learnlogic
      analogy

      "Just as an infant cannot understand physics a non-Christian cannot understand our faith."

      I don't think this is a great analogy. Perhaps if you said "...an unintelligent/ignorant non-Christian cannot understand our faith," it would be a bit more applicable. However, there are many intelligent non-religious people who do understand faith. But instead choose to adhere to logic. A Christian (or any religious person) chooses to have faith in something without conclusive evidence behind such a belief. That is why it is called faith. An intelligent, non-religious person can understand this aspect of faith and choose to reject it in favor of logic. That choice does not indicate that the person is devoid of understanding of what the faith is.

      And I'm not trying to be offensive. I was just trying to make the distinction between people who choose to believe in faith and people who choose to abide to logic. Just because somebody chooses the opposite path to you does not inherently make that decision comparable to an infant being unable to comprehend physics. It's the reasoning behind the choice which matters.

      - learnlogicUS July 27, 2009 5:46PM

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      • TheCatholicHeretic
        Logic and Wisdom

        If worldly logic can allow you to understand Christian Faith then explain the following:

        Corinthians 13:11
        When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

        Corinthians 3:18-19
        Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"; and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

        Psalm 14:1
        The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

        Psalm 92:6-7
        The senseless man does not know, fools do not understand, that though the wicked spring up like grass and all evildoers flourish, they will be forever destroyed.

        Proverbs 1:7
        The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline .

        TCH

        - TheCatholicHereticUS July 28, 2009 9:02AM

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        • learnlogic
          addendum

          You seem to have failed to grasp the point of my comment. Let me add this addendum:

          Just because a person is non-religious does not necessarily mean they are atheist.

          - learnlogicUS July 28, 2009 3:21PM

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          • TheCatholicHeretic
            I got your point

            It was a simple point to grasp. Read mine again, it is more complex. I am only speaking of Christian Faith not religious faith or lack thereof. You seem to have missed my point

            Also from your statements can infer that you believe Christians or religious people cannot use logic and are unintelligent? That is what it appears your are trying to communicate. If I am in error please correct my misunderstanding. If not then please understand logic alone cannot be used to comprehend the universe. Intelligence is relative and very subjective.

            Short list of Christian thinkers who use/ed Logic and Intelligence:

            Georges Lemaître, a Roman Catholic priest, proposed the Big Bang theory.

            Henry F. "Fritz" Schaefer is one of the foremost theoretical chemists of our day.

            William Phillips was co-recipient of the . 1997 Nobel Prize in Physics

            Nicolaus Copernicus: 1473-1543 Polish Astronomer, Developed the heliocentric theory of the solar system.

            Galileo Galilei: 1564-1642 Italian Physicist "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."

            Johannes Kepler: 1571-1630 German Astronomer. The 3 laws of planetary motion. Advanced Copernicus' heliocentric theory. "Since we astronomers are priests of the highest God in regard to the book of nature, it befits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God."

            Blaise Pascal: 1623-1662 French Mathemetician. "There is a God-shaped vacuum in the heart of every man which cannot be filled by any created thing, but only by God, the Creator, made known through Jesus Christ.”

            Sir Newton Isaac: 1642-1727 (born Dec 25) English Mathemetician.

            Michael Faraday:1791-1869 English Chemist. "Since peace is alone in the gift of God; and since it is He who gives it, why should we be afraid? His unspeakable gift in His beloved Son is the ground of no doubtful hope."

            Lord Kelvin: 1824-1907 (William Thomson) British Physicist. First and second laws of thermodynamics. Absolute temp scale. Trans-Atlantic cable. "I believe that the more thoroughly science is studied, the further does it take us from anything comparable to atheism."

            - TheCatholicHereticUS July 28, 2009 6:50PM

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            • learnlogic
              original point

              I simply contested your analogy which was incorrect. Saying that somebody who chooses not to follow an organized religious (especially your own specific religion ) is NOT comparable to an infant which is unable to understand physics. A developed person undergoes a thought process to make a decision based upon their understanding. An infant is incapable of conscious thought, let alone decision making. Hence an improper analogy.

              - learnlogicUS July 28, 2009 7:53PM

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              • TheCatholicHeretic
                It's the perfect analogy

                "An infant is incapable of conscious thought, let alone decision making. Hence an improper analogy."

                So you did miss my point. Your lack of understanding of the analogy does not make it invalid to anyone other than you. Let me explain. This is a metaphor for Christian Faith. Nothing else. We are all infants in one respect or another. You are an infant in regards to Christian Faith. You can choose to grow or not.

                - TheCatholicHereticUS July 29, 2009 8:43AM

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            • sunshiner424
              Forgive me

              for interjecting. Scientists can be Christians but there are also many atheist scientists as well. Quoting only the Christians makes a one sided point of view. Let's eliminate outside influences and consider only our own beliefs to restrict the use of other people's opinions to support our own. We could end up quoting everyone that ever lived and that would be a huge waste of time.

              So I will consider only your own words.

              "Also from your statements can infer that you believe Christians or religious people cannot use logic and are unintelligent?"
              It's not that Christians are unintelligent or can't use logic. They choose to ignore it. That by definition means they choose ignorance.

              "please understand logic alone cannot be used to comprehend the universe."
              1. This means that you believe you understand the universe.
              2. I believe I understand the universe without any God.
              3. Since I only follow logic, it means that logic can indeed be used to comprehend the universe.
              4. I am not telling you that you are wrong for believing in God. I am telling you that you are wrong to think that I am wrong.

              Don't tell me I don't understand what faith is either because I used to be a strong believer. I chose to stop being ignorant.

              - sunshiner424US July 29, 2009 1:12PM

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              • TheCatholicHeretic
                I believe I was responding to someone else

                with my comments.

                Your words...

                1.This means that you believe you understand the universe.
                Your inference is incorrect. Understanding of the universe is not limited to logic.
                2.I believe I understand the universe without any God.
                I believe this statement is false. No one understands the universe.
                3.Since I only follow logic, it means that logic can indeed be used to comprehend the universe.
                How so? There are many theories about the universe. Are they all correct? Why or why not? From where did the universe come from? It seems to contradict logic that it has always been there.
                4.I am not telling you that you are wrong for believing in God. I am telling you that you are wrong to think that I am wrong.
                But you do believe I am wrong. Read your post again. What other inference can I make from it?

                “Don't tell me I don't understand what faith is either because I used to be a strong believer. I chose to stop being ignorant.” Read Matthew 13.

                - TheCatholicHereticUS July 29, 2009 1:42PM

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        • Nikki H
          reply

          Are you trying to imply that we should completely turn off your minds and follow Church leaders like sheep? That happened with Jim Jones.
          Jesus also said that there were many things that He could not share or teach His apostles because they were not ready to hear or understand it. God's Word did not end 2,000 years ago. God speaks to us through the Holy Spirit and enlightens us with His wisdom. We understand many things scientifically now that were not even conceived 2,000 years ago.
          My belief is that the Bible is a guide written by humans and certainly influenced by the cultural traditions, beliefs, prjudices, and scientific knowledge of the time. Jesus taught that the two greatest commandments were to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. I do not see a lot of love coming from the Church for GLBT people. I see them inciting hate and intolerance for gay people. I see them avidly working to prevent basic civil rights for GLBT people. Basically, I do not think conservative Christians understand the message of Christ at all when it comes to this issue.

          - Nikki HUS July 29, 2009 12:58PM

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          • countryboy
            reply to reply

            What is GLBT people

            - countryboyUS July 30, 2009 6:49PM

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            • Nikki H
              reply to countryboy

              GLBT stands for Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender

              - Nikki HUS July 30, 2009 7:06PM

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              • countryboy
                thanks

                thanks for the reply

                - countryboyUS July 31, 2009 4:49PM

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          • countryboy
            keep in the word

            Keep in the word,people will let you down,so called Christians will let you down.Jesus will never let you down.He loves you.He died for you.

            - countryboyUS July 31, 2009 5:58PM

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            • angelmama
              Big Amen in this cornor

              When we take our eyes of Gd and place our faith in something or someone else thats when we start making mistakes.

              - angelmamaUS August 8, 2009 10:45PM

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        • quantummechanik
          Not the best praise for religion

          "Hey! Look how much sense we don't make!"

          - quantummechanikUS August 3, 2009 1:37AM

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      • Nikki H
        reply

        Interesting post, however, I do have a comment. I hope you will read my previous reply regarding the Church and Homosexuality.
        Personally, I think you would have a very different opinion if you were gay.
        Also, to compare someone stealing a pen and killing 6 million Jews as equal is bizarre.

        - Nikki HUS July 29, 2009 12:49PM

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        • TheCatholicHeretic
          Sin is sin

          "Also, to compare someone stealing a pen and killing 6 million Jews as equal is bizarre."

          Commiting any sin is commiting them all.

          - TheCatholicHereticUS July 29, 2009 5:16PM

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          • Nikki H
            reply

            Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.
            Somehow, I don't think a child not doing his homework or disobeying his Mom equates with killing 6 million Jews.
            Think about it!

            - Nikki HUS July 29, 2009 6:57PM

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          • quantummechanik
            Then why should

            anyone be able to speak about anything with regards to morality, if we're all equally morally culpable?

            - quantummechanikUS July 30, 2009 6:50PM

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            • MrBook
              morals

              Indeed...

              if stealing a pen is as bad as killing millions then either we are really going over board when people kill millions... or are going to easy on people who take pens.

              - MrBookUS July 31, 2009 5:46PM

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    • countryboy
      light of the world

      Well said brother!

      - countryboyUS July 28, 2009 9:31PM

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    • Nikki H
      reply

      When does an attempt to bring someone to "salvation" cross the line into intolerance and abuse of someone's basic human rights? I feel the conservative evangelical movement is taking an extremely complicated issue (sexuality) and simplifying it for their own political gain. The extreme focus on homosexuality (which was not even understood as a psychosexual orientation 2,000 years ago when the Bible was written) while virtually ignoring the rampant destructive social issues such as adultury, child abuse, treating women as second class citizens, racism , crime , drugs, global warming and other social ills just reveals their basic prejudice against GLBT people.
      More than likely, GLBT people are born that way. It's is not a choice. It is how God created them and homosexuality exists as part of the normal variance of sexuality throughout the animal kingdom.
      To take 3 or 4 scriptures completely out of the cultural context that they were written 2,000 years ago and re-translated in is the height of ignorance.
      The reason many churches are silent on the issue of homosexuality and gender variance is because they realize that these issues are very complicated and the fundamentalist interpretation is in conflict with the basic philosophy of Jesus. Jesus embraced those who were cast out. He taught that we are all children of God and created in His image. Fortunately, many progressive churches are seeing the light and re-examining these scriptures that have been used to assault a whole segment of the population. The problem with the conservative Christians, Catholics, Mormons and other anti-GLBT groups is that their objectivity is marred by their own cultural prejudice and bigotry. They basically cannot see the forest for the trees.

      - Nikki HUS July 29, 2009 12:47PM

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    • mike1948
      Romans 12:21

      “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”

      - mike1948US July 29, 2009 4:12PM

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      • MrBook
        objectively evil

        So what is objectively evil about homosexuality ?

        The only arguments that it is somehow wrong are found in religious texts, while things like killing and stealing have been explored in great depth by secular authors.

        - MrBookUS July 29, 2009 5:29PM

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        • mike1948
          An approach to sin.

          I said nothing about homosexuality . What the verse means is simply that the proper way for a Christian to approach what he perceives as sin is by returning that evil with good. Jesus taught that one should NEVER be judgmental.

          - mike1948US July 29, 2009 11:34PM

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          • MrBook
            quoting Romans

            Then why did you cite Romans 12:21... which specifically mentions evil... when talking about how Christians should confront homosexuality ?

            If homosexuality is not evil or immoral to begin with then where is the conflict? And if you cannot argue that it is evil or immoral to non-Christians without using Christian arguments then why should a secular society follow along?

            - MrBookUS July 30, 2009 5:58AM

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            • mike1948
              Confronting sin.

              I was speaking generally about confronting sin. The post before Romans 12:21 did not mention homosexuals.

              - mike1948US July 30, 2009 11:04AM

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  • tal55
    This is a Joke, right?

    Sorry, I just can't stop laughing. Let the christers stand up for their moral values, as they did for interracial marriage , or even racial marriage for that matter. Christians are a joke. You have a long history of discriminating against anyone that's not like you - rather like the muslims. It's comic relief for anyone that doesn't have to deal with you. Unfortunately, gay people are not so fortunate.

    - tal55US July 28, 2009 12:43AM

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    • jheimer
      I thought the same thing...

      There's no way a rational, sane person would compare the two. I'd doubt there was such a thing as the "Illinois Family Institute" but I've seen large groups of idiots gather before, so who knows.
      What IS true is that these people who call themselves Christians are so far from the message of Jesus. Hijacking the word doesn't bring you closer to God, it just makes you paranoid and stupid.

      - jheimerUS July 29, 2009 11:54AM

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  • psychonaut
    comparison hard to follow

    Nazism is rejected because this political movement killed so many people. Have homosexuals promoted genocide in the same way as the former Nazis? I find this comparison hard to follow.

    - psychonautDE July 29, 2009 11:41AM

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  • cityboy
    So Eternally Grateful

    that I'm no longer afflicted by this religion disorder. It can only be called a disorder when one can seriously propose a program of discrimination and disenfranchisement, based upon fallacious hatred of people for what they are and cannot change, and liken it to fighting a program of discrimination and disenfranchisement, based upon fallacious hatred of people for what they are and cannot change.

    There are so many people these days perfectly willing to make up new activities to call "sins", that it is near impossible for anyone to take them seriously. The above article quotes "Catholic psychiatrist Conrad Baars" (is catholic psychiatry some different branch of psychiatry devoted to the inordinately deluded?) While an entire speech is attributed to the J-man on turning the other cheek, here we have someone of slightly less stature in the church than him contradicting the contents of the bible and declaring something new as a sin.
    Then again, according to that book we should be putting people to death for wearing clothes of mixed fibers, eating shellfish, or having relations with women during their time of the month.

    In conclusion, I would like to point out that as the United States is in no sense a christian nation (treaty of tripoli, 1796 signed by our founding fathers. look it up) one of the greatest things about it is that we try very hard to keep the poisoning influence of religion out of our system of laws. If people in the church don't like homosexuality , they shouldn't practice it (catholic priests seem inordinately drawn to partaking in that practice as well as pedophilia, as the news has shown in recent years). If they don't want gays in their churches, that's fine too. But to force their hate-filled and illogical views and biases upon everyone, including those that have seen through the boatload of BS that passes for organized religion today, through our legal system is just plain wrong.

    - cityboyUS July 29, 2009 12:03PM

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    • angelmama
      I very much disagree with you regarding

      this country not being a Christian nation, it very much is, and it very much will remain such. And the only person I see spewing hateful words is you, not CHristians.

      - angelmamaUS August 8, 2009 10:48PM

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      • homogenius
        Fact check on aisle three--

        The US Constitution states it quite simply:

        "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion ..."

        From the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary, ratified by the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by President John Adams on June 10, 1797:

        "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

        Finally, throughout our nation's history the courts at every level have upheld the non-establishment clause. The United States is not a christian nation and never has been. I realize you have probably absorbed all the dominionist propaganda, including the fictionalized account of Gen. Washington's " prayer ", but history and fact are against you.

        And the only reason you can't see anyone spewing hateful words is because you have your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears going "la-la-la can't hear you". Comparing LGBT people fight for our basic human rights and dignity to Nazis is about as hateful as it gets.

        Next time you open your bible , try working on that "bearing false witness" part. I'm not sure you're getting that one.

        - homogeniusUS August 25, 2009 1:20PM

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        • angelmama
          You leave out the best part

          You tell a joke but leave out the punch line...not good.
          The Constitutions says, in whole,
          Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion , or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. end

          When did the government make a law esp. to a religious church , key work is LAW, ESP. TO A CHURCH- meaning only to a church and not to others as well, ie when its across the board it includes both church and state ...and read the rest of it, it appears to be quite respectful of religion and church, it just does not feel partiality is right. Dont twist what it says.
          As far as the document of peace known as the " Treaty of Tripoli".The document was for establishing a basis of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary, ratified by the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by President John Adams on June 10, 1797 but why was it inacted? And we know that advocates of the division of church and state have used this nearly obsolete document as their basis to try and prove our America was not founded on men who held a high regard for God and faith, and that very aspect of their lives governed our countries foundations, which there are far more documents to prove otherwise!
          Why is a large portion missing? Check it out herehttp:// www.flickr.com/photos/caveman_92223/3733328265 /

          I offer one, single bit of evidence among mountains of evidence, that our founding fathers most certainly where Christian and placed their very lives into the hands of the sustainabiltity of that faith through acitvism and that activism being the foundations of America. Quote:
          James Madison, Former Framer of the Constitution:
          WE HAVE STACKED THE WHOLE FUTURE OF THE AMERICAN CIVILIZATION..UPON THE CAPACITY OF EACH AND ALL OF US TO GOVERN OURSELVES ( PS THAT MEANS BUT OUT GOVERNMENT FEDERALISTS)ACCORDING TO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. END QUOTE
          There is far more some of which is below:
          Alexander Hamilton said, " I have a tender reliance on the mercy of hte Almighty; through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look for Him for mercy; pray for me" last dying words July 12, 1804

          Patrick Henry said, " This is all the inheritance I have to my dear fmaily. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed" written in his will Nov. 20, 1798

          John Adams said, " Suppose a nation is some distant region would take the Bible for their only Law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited...What a paradise would this region be!" our second President.

          Abraham Lincoln said, " It is fit and becoming in all people ,at all times, to acknowledge and revere the Supreme Goverment of God; to bow in humble submission to His chatisment; to confess and deplore their sins and transgressions in the full conviction that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; and to pray, with all fervency and contrition, for the pardon of their past offenses, and for a blessing upon their present perspective action." speech declaring a national day of prayer

          George Washington said, It is the duty of all nations to acknowlede the Providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and to humbly implore His protection and favor" Oct. 3, 1789 proclaiming a day of prayer .

          David Webster said, "If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterity neglect its instructions and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overhwlem us and bury all our glory in porfound abscurity."

          Benjamin Franklin said, " We have been assured , Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this politcal builing no better than the builder of Babel." Constitutional Convention 1787

          Thomas Jefferson said, God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis , a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift of God?That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I trembel for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever' 1781
          Just a few.

          - angelmamaUS August 28, 2009 11:39AM

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          • MrBook
            Deism

            The Founding Fathers were not uniformly Christian, many (Thomas Jefferson being the most famous) were Deists.

            Thomas Jefferson rewrote the bible (titled "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth") seeking to remove all all supernatural elements...

            "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

            John Adams was of a similar deist mindset

            "The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

            "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.'"

            Benjamin Franklin also had deist leanings...

            "My parents had given me betimes religious impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself."

            Thomas Paine decried religion in his aptly named "Age of Reason"

            "All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

            "What is it the Bible teaches us? -- rapine, cruelty, and murder ."

            George Washington was another Deist

            “Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.”

            Abraham Lincoln's views on Christianity are similarly muddled...

            “My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.”

            - MrBookUS August 28, 2009 5:49PM

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          • tek
            federalists

            You make this statement: "PS THAT MEANS BUT OUT GOVERNMENT FEDERALISTS" and then quote Hamilton, Adams, and Washington.

            You may not realize this, but Hamilton and
            Adams are why there are federalists, and it is highly possible that if it weren't for the leanings of Hamilton, we wouldn't have a Fed at all. You are very seriously mistaken in your history. It would do you well to read of the conflicts between Hamilton and Jefferson and perhaps come to a new decision about whom you feel worthy of quote in any type of discussion about freedom from government.



            - tek August 29, 2009 2:28AM

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        • angelmama
          And while our government does not endorse one

          church over another, not even Mormonism which I consider not a religion but a false one, is not endorsed over another. I like this poem and the men of our country where deeply religious and on that our country was built! We are a country whose foundations where built by Christian men with Christian ideals. This poem says it best for me:
          And a poem I love by Helen Steiner-Rice an American poet and legend:
          GOD, GRANT US HOPE FAITH AND LOVE

          Hope for a world grown cynically cold

          Hungry for power and greedy for gold..

          Faith to believe from within and without

          There's a name-less fear in a world of doubt

          Love that is bigger than race or creed;

          To cover the world and fulfill each need..

          God, grant these gifts To all troubled hearts

          As the Old year ends And a new years starts

          By Helen Steiner Rice from her book titled, " Lovingly"

          - angelmamaUS August 28, 2009 11:42AM

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  • Gonneke
    Thank

    I thank the great earth mother that I am not a Christian, for I had to be as evil and facist as the writer of the above. How is it possible to be so full of hatred in name of a person that preached love, peace and one-ness. Who said that who is without sin was to throw the first stone.
    I'd rather follow the rules of mother nature and respect life in all it's glorious forms.

    - GonnekeNL July 29, 2009 12:17PM

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    • countryboy
      Mother nature

      Whats a mother nature?Does she age?How old is she?Does she talk back when talked to?What is her rules?

      - countryboyUS July 31, 2009 6:44PM

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      • Gonneke
        mother

        She is as old and as aging as Earth. She does not ask for prayers and does not answer any (I'm thankful for that, I do not want to belong to people who hear voices in their heads - psychic wards full of those already), but she does need to be respected and does respond.Her rules are simple: respect her and all life onto her and she will flourish and you with her. Do not respect her and all that lives on her and she will gradually die and all that lived with her.
        She does not want all kinds of strange rituals and pounishments, she just wants everybody to fully enjoy her and what she has to offer and will gratefully take your body back when your life is over. How you want to live that life and how you want to enjoy all of her gifts and with what people you want to share her joys - she does not care.

        And know what? She doesn't need you to believe in her and fight wars over her. She is and will be, believe (in) her or not.

        - GonnekeNL August 1, 2009 12:14AM

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        • countryboy
          mother

          Does she age?What does she look like?

          - countryboyUS August 1, 2009 4:25PM

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          • Gonneke
            read

            just read what I wrote. I know English is not my mother langue, but I'm pretty sure I answered your questions before you asked.
            And besides: why would you want to know?

            - GonnekeNL August 2, 2009 12:19AM

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            • countryboy
              mother nature

              I did not know that there was a religion of mother nature.Thats why I would like to know.Thats new to me.

              - countryboyUS August 2, 2009 10:12AM

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              • Gonneke
                non-religion

                I never in any way did mention religion in relation to mother nature, did I? Why should it be religion? In my experience it is religion that makes people say and do stupid things like hating and condemning people who are not like them.

                - GonnekeNL August 3, 2009 1:39AM

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          • MrBook
            interesting

            that is an interesting question from someone who talks about the Holy Trinity... Or can one also ask if God ages and what God looks like?

            - MrBookUS August 4, 2009 7:00AM

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            • countryboy
              Question

              Why not ask if you don't know?

              - countryboyUS August 4, 2009 4:58PM

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              • MrBook
                waffling

                I would, but the only answers I'd get would be the usual run about eternal and timeless.

                My point is... can someone who already believes in a supernatural entity question the rationality of someone else who believes in a supernatural entity?

                - MrBookUS August 4, 2009 5:19PM

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  • State of Reason
    The church should handle gays just like Nazi's

    The bulk of the church bent over for the Nazi's. The Nazi's came to power and the vast majority of people in the vast majority of churches bent right over and took it from the Nazi's. In a lot of cases the churches assisted the Nazi's. After all, they're only killing the Jews (and the blacks and the gays and anyone who disagreed with them and . . .) and let's be honest Christians have been doing that for centuries. So, as a solution to our current conflict, I think it should be handled in the same way. I think Christians should bend over for the gays. Who knows, you might enjoy it.

    On a more serious note. You say people are demanding that to you "affirm homosexual acts as moral". That's not even remotely true. Nobody cares if you think homosexuality is moral. You can believe gays are sinners, you can believe that they'll burn in hell forever, hell you can even tell them that. What you can't do is refuse them their constitutional rights. You can not discriminate against or assault them for being who they are. Nobody's even asking you to wed them in your churches. Just let them have a civil ceremony and get the legal benefits and responsibilities that every other married couple gets. This has no impact on you whatsoever so there's no reason you should oppose it.

    - State of ReasonUS July 29, 2009 12:20PM

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    • MrBook
      power vs. morality

      The real question is did opposition to Nazism come from a real moral objection, or did it occur because Nazism took power from the churches?

      - MrBookUS July 29, 2009 5:31PM

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    • Gonneke
      pope

      ''The bulk of the church bent over for the Nazi's. ''
      Remember this pope 's youth organisation?

      - GonnekeNL August 3, 2009 1:41AM

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  • jochanaan
    Other sins besides homosexuality

    As a Bible-believing Christian, I affirm that the Bible does condemn homosexual activity (not " homosexuality ," which as someone noted, was not a concept anyone was familiar with in New Testament times) and that abortion is not consistent with a worldview that includes unborn fetuses as human beings. But there are other sins just as grievous: adultery, thievery, inequity in judgment, aggressive wars over resources, reckless accumulation of wealth... I'd be more impressed with Ms. Higgins' article if she included some of those other sins as well as the two hot-button issues. But I suspect that if she had, some of her conservative fans would say, "You've stopped preachin' and started meddlin'!"

    - jochanaanUS July 29, 2009 1:13PM

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  • oldfoxbob
    Gods laws

    Dear Ms Higgins,

    Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law . I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him or her that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other laws and how to best follow them:

    * When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). I understand that the bull cannot be castrated (Lev 22:24), but the problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

    * I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as suggested in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

    * I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

    * Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

    * I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

    * A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality . I don't agree. Can you settle this?

    I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

    Signed Rev R. Geer
    Universal Life Church of Florida

    - oldfoxbobUS July 29, 2009 1:30PM

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    • State of Reason
      Couldn't have said it better myself

      Why is it we get to pick and choose what parts of the bible we follow? If it's the unerring word of God shouldn't we have to follow every part of it instead of just the parts that feel right to us?

      - State of ReasonUS July 29, 2009 2:11PM

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    • Ynilp
      Right on!

      In 1 Samuel 15:1–9, God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites — including men, women, children , infants, and their cattle—for something the Amalekites' ancestors had done 400 years earlier.

      Some of what the old testament says should be taken with a grain of salt.

      Nowhere in the gospels of the new testament does Jesus condemn homosexuality , per se.

      The apostle Paul by implication suggests that homosexuality is a sin, because he suggests that homosexuals can be "washed, sanctified and justified" in the name of Jesus at 1 Cor. 6:9-11.

      But certainly, if it was so important, the nature of homosexuality as an evil would have been central to Jesus' preachings. It was not, so Jesus must not have thought it was such a big deal.

      - YnilpUS July 29, 2009 2:14PM

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    • camelcityman271
      Old Testament Is Still In Force!

      Rev. R. Geer wrote:

      * I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

      * A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality . I don't agree. Can you settle this?

      The Levitical guidelines for eating clean and unclean foods still applies in today's world, if anyone who says that he is a follower and believer of the Savior. Our Messiah mentioned that we show our love to our Heavenly Father by doing as our Master here on Earth had done, who is the Son of the Most High. Our Savior followed every word of Scripture to the last letter, and ate foods according to the guidelines listed in Leviticus - no pork, no shellfish, and no road kill. He also observed Sabbath on the seventh day of the week, which is one of the 10 Commandments that all Christians are supposed to obey! When our Savior died, the penalty of immediate death was nailed at Calvary (Golgotha). Now our Heavenly Father maintains a record of our sins, including our failure to keep His 7th day holy, which He will present to us in His Presence on the Final Day of Judgment. Amen.

      - camelcityman271US July 29, 2009 4:10PM

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      • Submariner
        Answer the question!

        So can I kill the guy for eating lobster or not? And if I eat lobster can I kill myself and do good by god 's grace?

        These questions remain unanswered because even the most ludicrous and insane "believers" recognize how ridiculous a position literal interpretation of the Bible paints one into.

        - Submariner July 29, 2009 4:32PM

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        • Nikki H
          reply

          Great comment. The problem is that Fundies never try to extend their literal interpretation logic to issues beyond their own prejudices. They are very selective in which scriptures they choose to accept as literal and which they choose not to.

          - Nikki HUS July 29, 2009 4:58PM

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          • Submariner
            Thank You.

            I am a card carrying athiest myself, but even allowing for some personal high power to exist I find it very difficult to understand, let alone accept as true, a great many claims and commandments in the Bible.

            There is so much more philosophical breathing room in the discourse when we can step back from obvious metaphor and other literary device and figure out what is meaningful.

            I mean seriously: "You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk." Dubya-Tee-Ehf?

            - Submariner July 29, 2009 5:07PM

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        • camelcityman271
          The Questions Have Been Answered!

          Submariner, it is hard for some people to believe what Scripture says because we live in a Universe where our Heavenly Father has chosen to make Himself invisible to us. It is always easier for humans to believe what they can see before them, but just like the air we breathe, we usually don't see it but know that without it, we cannot live. It is the same scenario when we talk about faith and belief. As I have mentioned before, when Jesus of Nazareth died at Calvary, His Death nailed to the tree the Old Testament laws which commanded instant death (hanging and stoning) for disobedience to our Heavenly Father's commandments. I'm not asking you to believe, but to try and understand where I'm coming from. I am not "insane or ludicrous," I used to be one of the most-liberal Christians on the planet. But the Bible is a real book, and it is as relevant today as it was during the time God's Son lived on Earth. No, we don't kill the guy eating lobster these days. But if that guy goes around telling people that he is a born-again believer who follows His Savior and he continues to eat lobster, our Heavenly Father will see him face to face on the Final Day of Judgment, when every dead person who ever lived on Earth will stand before the Almighty, that is, unless they have been saved from Judgment. Just like the air we breathe, God will appear before everyone on that day.

          - camelcityman271US July 29, 2009 5:07PM

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          • Submariner
            So we can ignore this part, whew.

            Thank you for the precedence of disaffecting faith in this text everyone keeps pushing in peoples faces.

            - Submariner July 29, 2009 5:39PM

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          • quantummechanik
            HOW, exactly

            does it "nail that to the tree"? A law is a law. A law without a punishment is...well, I suppose it's a suggestion. You can't negate half of a commandment and still say you're keeping the commandment.

            - quantummechanikUS July 29, 2009 7:05PM

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        • quantummechanik
          No you can't

          unless he was Jewish and he ate Lobster. And if you were Jewish. And there was a trial before you did it. I suppose I could go around killing lobster-eating Jews all willy-nilly, but I'm kind of busy these days, and I also don't have a car right now.

          - quantummechanikUS July 29, 2009 7:03PM

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          • camelcityman271
            Think Of It This Way...

            Quantummechanik, if you are a believer in both the Father and His Son, I don't believe that you would have a question on why some commandments are not presently in effect and why others are. The Law itself - the so-called 613 Commandments - were never done away with, but since our Savior (the Son of the Most High) now sits in Heaven with the Father, His Death placed a hold on some commandments, such as those requiring the people in a community to exercise instant death for disobedient children and adulterers. In no way has any of His commandments been negated, but the penalty for those sins are now saved for the Day of Judgment. Because our Savior died for our sins, we do not - for the time being - have to stone homosexuals to death or kill people who practice witchcraft and idolatry. Our Heavenly Father, through His Son is allowing all of us to repent of our sins and return to Him through our Messiah, the Lord of mankind. Anyone who denies His Salvation will be held accountable on the Final Day of Judgment, when all unsaved souls will stand face to face with the Master. None of the commandments have been done away with, a few of them have simply been placed on hold for activation at a later date.

            - camelcityman271US July 30, 2009 2:04AM

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        • countryboy
          No Answer needed

          Camelcityman271 is so in his own little world.

          - countryboyUS July 31, 2009 6:53PM

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      • tek
        So do

        you get one sin mark for each Sunday you work, or once you work a Sunday that's it? Also, what if I prefer to have Sabbath on Tuesday? By the way, why Sunday? It certainly doesn't seem to be any more holy than any other day. Funny how the human's calendar determined which day of the week was holy. But see, that's how it always works. Human make up a god rule, give it holiness, then it's to be observed by all in that faith.

        Do you honestly think God would give two flying damns if you eat a lobster? Of course not. And if he does, you all seriously need a smarter god. I would bet however that the local custom of dying after eating old shellfish was a pretty good reason for coming up with that little ditty. Would have been easier if god said "And thou shall not eat any shellfish that has been dead for longer than three hours".

        I realize that most of that has nothing to do with your post directly, but as I was already typing in this little box.....

        - tek July 29, 2009 4:33PM

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        • MrBook
          grand scheme

          In the Grand Scheme of things what really is the problem with working on the Sabbath? What is the cosmic significance that makes 'working' (rather ill defined) a hell-worthy offense?

          - MrBookUS July 29, 2009 4:59PM

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          • quantummechanik
            We invented the Sabbath

            And we have no idea why it would send someone to hell...

            Although, since Jews don't have hell, it's sort of a strange statement. Hell is a Greek thing.

            - quantummechanikUS July 29, 2009 6:59PM

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            • MrBook
              just checking

              It always struck me as odd to torture someone for all eternity because the did something on one day out of seven... which is already an entirely arbitrary choice.

              - MrBookUS July 29, 2009 8:45PM

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            • countryboy
              what

              Jews not have hell.What kind of jew are you?

              - countryboyUS July 31, 2009 6:06PM

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        • camelcityman271
          Yes, It Does Matter!

          Many people may not realize that our Heavenly Father allowed men and women to change the worship day so that He can give an account on Judgment Day of what had been done. The 10 Commandments are not just poetic verses printed on paper, they are the basic guidelines that Christians and others use to help them live their lives in a proper fashion. If you may recall, Emperor Constantine started the ball rolling on changing the day of worship from the 7th Day to the 1st Day, and the Catholic Church (even today) has admitted that they are the ones to finalize this unauthorized change. I say unauthorized because the 7th Day is God's 4th Commandment: "You shall remember the Sabbath Day...six days you shall work, but the seventh (day of the week) is *a Sabbath to your Lord.* Not the Jewish Sabbath, not the Christian sabbath, but the LORD's Sabbath. Our Heavenly Father commands all of us to cease from working on the seventh day of the week. But since we can't see Him, touch Him, or hear Him, some of us assume that He does not exist! So the ancient Romans went along with a ruler who worshiped the Sun and hated anything Jewish (because both Christians and Jews were worshiping together as one group on the seventh day), a man who decided to steal the glory from the Almighty and make a name for himself. Partly because of Constantine, most Christians no longer celebrate Passover or the Festival of Tabernacles, the 2 major feasts of God that are supposed to be celebrated by Christians. Passover was pre-empted for Lent and Easter, and Christmas was created to accommodate pagan worshipers who celebrated the winter solstice every December 25th. Yes, God does care about what we eat, and if you knew what purpose some animals serve here on Earth (scavengers and environmental cleaners), you may think twice about the kinds of foods that you eat. Go to the Book of Leviticus to find out what God knew long before we did.

          - camelcityman271US July 30, 2009 2:26AM

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      • quantummechanik
        No he didn't

        He worked on the sabbath.

        There aren't 10 commandments. There are 613 mitzvhot. Saying "obey the ten commandments " is a bit like saying "obey the bill of rights" in that it ignores the entire criminal code that follows it.

        Why are Christians supposed to obey the 10 commandments and not the 613 mitzvhot? A rule is a rule.

        - quantummechanikUS July 29, 2009 7:02PM

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        • camelcityman271
          Most Christians Only Recognize 10...

          Who worked on the Sabbath? If you are referring to Messiah Y'shua (Jesus), he did good deeds on the Sabbath, but he did not do regular work! It is not against the commandments, or mitzvot, to heal the sick, revive the dead, feed the hungry, help a neighbor pull his animal out of the ditch, or pick food out of the field for someone else. Understand that the Christian faith started splitting away from its Jewishness around the 2nd to 4th century, and during this time, many commandments were either forgotten or omitted from practice. Add to this the association with pagan practices and celebrations incorporated into the faith, and the result is a Christian faith that no longer identifies with its Jewish roots. You know as I know that Jesus is and was the most Jewish person on Earth. The 10 Words - the 10 Commandments - continue to stand as the major guidelines for Christians to live by every day. The other commandments were lost in the mix through the sands of time, so to speak, and have little importance to a majority of Christians today. That's why you usually hear many Christians mention only 10 commandments. But they still continue to violate the 4th Commandment, and I believe that will take some time to resolve, once they come around to agreeing that all 10 of these commandments should be obeyed.

          - camelcityman271US July 30, 2009 2:55AM

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          • quantummechanik
            Actually, it is

            Those things are all considered work. The only way you could not consider those things work is if you declare Jewish law irrelevant to what "keeping the sabbath" means. Which you can do, but you can't do it and simultaneously call yourself a good Jew. Jewish Law is important, and if someone wants to call themselves the Jewish Messiah, they had better follow Jewish law. Picking food is kol-m'lacha--Something that is a creative generative endeavour that changes the environment --and thusly a no-no. Even during the plowing and harvest season, you MUST rest. Preparation and cooking of food is prohibited, because, well, see below.

            "Each morning everyone gathered as much [manna] as he needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much-- two omers for each person-- and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. He said to them, "This is what HaShem commanded: `Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to HaShem. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'" So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. "Eat it today," Moses said, "because today is a Sabbath to HaShem. You will not find any of it on the ground today. Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any." Nevertheless, some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. Then HaShem said to Moshe, "How long will you refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? Bear in mind that HaShem has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." So the people rested on the seventh day."

            Pulling an animal out of the road isn't allowed because we're not allowed to carry anything out of a "domain", which is your house, college , whatever. Unless whichever city he was in had an eruv, which is a sort of traditional fence that makes a certain area a single domain, it's not allowed.

            "This is what HaShem says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your forefathers."

            If G-d told us to kill a guy for gathering wood on the sabbath, it makes little sense how He'd suddenly have a change of heart about it once Jesus did it.

            - quantummechanikUS July 30, 2009 10:54AM

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            • mike1948
              Is it still the law?

              For an Orthodox Jew is it still the law to kill a guy for gathering wood on the sabbath?

              - mike1948US July 30, 2009 1:52PM

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            • camelcityman271
              Y'shua Is Lord of the Sabbath!

              Cameron, go to the B'rit Hadashah, Book of Luke, Chapter 14:

              Messiah Y'shua had on the Sabbath visited one of the Pharisees' rulers' house to partake in a meal, where a certain man had the dropsy. Y'shua asked them: "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?" No one could answer him because they were stunned. So Y'shua took the man with dropsy, healed him and let him depart. He then asked, "Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into the well, and not attempt to rescue the animal on a Sabbath day?" Again, the audience was speechless! Since Christians acknowledge Y'shua as the Son of God, then our Heavenly Father does allow us to do good deeds on the Sabbath.

              - camelcityman271US July 30, 2009 4:38PM

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        • countryboy
          No hell

          If jew dont have hell why obey the 10 commandments.

          - countryboyUS July 31, 2009 6:10PM

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          • quantummechanik
            Because G-d is our mother, in a metaphor

            This is seriously the way it was explained to me.

            Take your mother. Your mother loves you. No matter what you do, your mother is going to love the stuffing out of you.

            So now it's mothers day. You can send a card, flowers, a present, chocolates, whatever. But these things cost money or time. Now, you could not send anything, and have more for yourself.

            Your mother won't love you any less for that.

            But the reason you do it is because you love your mother, and you want her to be happy.

            It's sort of like that with Jews and laws. G-d loves us, and wants us to be happy, and won't love us less if we don't follow the rules. We follow the rules because we love G-d.

            - quantummechanikUS July 31, 2009 7:28PM

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      • oldfoxbob
        You miss the point!

        You have missed my point totally! There are only ten laws in the bible . TEN!!! not twenty not forty but TEN! The rest are merely guidelines for us to live by. For example the eating of pork as it is unclean was because under cooked pork could lead to trichinosis or worms which lead to more serious problems and even death. It doesn't take a scholar to see that people who ate uncooked pork got sick and died! hence the rule of not eating it as they had no knowledge of germs and such back 2000 plus years ago!
        Shell fish was the same, as was selling your children into slavery.
        and so on and so forth. I suggest that you read the very first page of the bible, the preface! In that one page it will tell you the very truth about the bible. In short terms it says that it is a book, written by man, interpreted by man, is NOT the word of God and should not be taken literally!! It is only a guide for us to live as God would want us to live (over two thousand years ago) as well as a history book. Man had little knowledge of things like we do today, of stars, comets, volcanoes, earth quakes etc. Man took those things that he could not understand and gave it to God as his works. ( which it was ) and that it was God's will that the earth quake happened so those who died in the earthquake must have been unfavorable in Gods eye! Today we know otherwise don't we! I suggest you leave the bible to those who know how to read it to those who know how to read it! I suggest that Ms Higgins ( our original subject here) be fired from her job since she is preaching HATE and misinformation about something she knows so little about.
        Rev R Geer
        Universal Life Church of Florida

        - oldfoxbobUS July 30, 2009 7:37AM

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        • camelcityman271
          There Are 613 Commandments, Not 10

          Oldfoxbob, sorry to say this - there are 613 commandments in Scripture, as most people in Judaism know. The 10 Commandments are only a small fraction of the total number printed in the Holy Book. The Christian faith has taken most of these commandments and reduced to maybe 12 or 13: Love the Lord with all your heart, love your neighbor, and the 10 Commandments. But surprisingly, there are many more, which most Christians have yet to discover. And I believe that most of the other commandments are expanded versions of the Christian's basic 10. It is amazing to find that many Christians are not aware of this fact.

          - camelcityman271US July 30, 2009 10:33AM

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        • camelcityman271
          I Have A Question...

          I am curious - you say the the Scriptures is only a book, written by man, interpreted by man, and not the Word of God. We are not to take this Book literally because it is only a guide and a history book. That being the case, then what else do we have as His Word? If the Bible is a history book, then why are the 10 Commandments so important to Christian believers? If eating pork was not kosher during the days of Moses, then why has it become acceptable among humans today? Our Heavenly Father is a highly intelligent Being who gave us the Breath of Life. Do we discredit His intelligence and authority just because we can? Or do we try to go beyond ourselves to gain a deeper understanding of His Word and commandments? What is your opinion on this?

          - camelcityman271US July 30, 2009 10:46AM

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        • quantummechanik
          I read my bible

          On sheepskin pages hand-copied and stitched together to make a giant scroll. I don't have a preface. Is it on the back?

          - quantummechanikUS July 30, 2009 11:40AM

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          • camelcityman271
            Sheepskin, Scroll or Book...It's Still the Word

            My friend, it doesn't matter how the Word is bound. It's how we apply that Word to our daily lives, you agree? You and I both have the words to read, I have a book and you have a sheepskinned scroll. You may read yours in Hebrew, mine is in English. And the words from that sheepskin and my book are just as potent today as they were at the time when they were first written or printed. Amen!

            - camelcityman271US July 30, 2009 4:54PM

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      • countryboy
        Not for Christians

        Sorry man your way out there.Study in prayer .

        - countryboyUS July 31, 2009 6:50PM

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  • flintcowboy
    Strange Analogy

    Hitler fought against homosexuals, as he did pacifists, Gypsies, Jews, and many other groups he didn't like.

    What would it mean to fight homosexuality ? Would it mean denying housing, employment, or medical treatment to homosexual persons. Would it mean bullying kids in school who appear to be gay? Would it meaning arresting them? Would it mean beating them up? Would it mean opposing legislation designed to protect people from violence based on perceived sexual orientation? How could any of these activities be associated with either Christ or Bonhoeffer?

    I am a straight white married male evangelical Christian, trying my best to follow the teachings of Christ regarding sexual morality. I agree with James Alison, a gay catholic theologian, that we all need to practice chastity. BTW, I recommend Alison's book Faith Beyond Resentment.

    Laurie, have you thought about what heterosexuals are doing to marriage ? I wrote my thoughts on that a while back:
    http://alterfaith.wordpress.com/2007/07/16/the-threat-to-marriage /

    Your Bonhoeffer analogy is very strange. Of course, Bonhoeffer believed faith entails obedience and discipleship means responsible behavior. But that doesn't mean fighting against people who identify themselves as being attracted to persons of their own sex.

    - flintcowboyUS July 29, 2009 3:06PM

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    • Nikki H
      reply

      Excellent post. Thank you.

      - Nikki HUS July 29, 2009 4:52PM

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  • camelcityman271
    Being Gay Is Not A Sin, Doing It Is...

    As someone who considers himself a Spiritual believer in Father and Son, please allow me to offer my views on this one. No other issue - except for abortion - has caused as much divisiveness within congregations today as the issue of homosexuality and LGBT. The Bible says that people who cause divisions and strife within the church are working on the side of Satan, and should be sent away. Not my words, but these words come directly from the Holy Book itself. Before I repented of my sins and asked the Heavenly Father for forgiveness, I too believed that it was OK for churches to ordain gay and lesbian clergy and perform civil unions . I was a very liberal-minded person then, and I still treat gay and lesbian people with the highest respect, and have no problems being in their presence or working with them. But it is hard for people to accept what Scripture says because the human mind is wired to do what it wants to do. The Apostle Paul wrote about how he wanted to do as he pleased, but could no longer do so because he became a Child of God's Kingdom. And it doesn't matter if the person in question is an adulterer or a young heterosexual couple having sex outside of marriage , Scripture is clear on the sanctity of sex itself, that our Creator created sex for reproduction, and intended for sex to be only between a married man and his wife. I do understand that this will not sit well with many, and if I could rewrite Scripture to conform with society's thinking, I would. But I cannot because these words came directly from an intelligent supernatural Being, whose Existence will never end. Yes, other people wrote the words and published the Book, but it was the influence and power of God who gave them the ability to bring His Words to a mortal world. The Bible mentions that churches are responsible for their congregations, and the Almighty gives each congregation the power to expel or censure any member who continues to sin after church officials have confronted that person. Not just for homosexual sex, but also for adultery, prostitution , and premarital sex. Not just for people who are lesbian or gay, but also for heterosexuals as well. If state governments want to perform unions and weddings for the LGBT community, let them. But our churches will have to answer to a HIgher Power, the same God who has commanded them to serve as models for the communities in which they serve. As the Apostle Paul asked, if the churches cannot police themselves, then what good are they in preaching the Word to the rest of the world? I pray and hope that this will help some people understand the anger that has been expressed by more than a few in the Christian community.

    - camelcityman271US July 29, 2009 3:27PM

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    • Nikki H
      reply

      OMG, I don't even know where to begin. It is no wonder that non-Christian people think Christians are complete lunatics. Please do yourself a favor a read some theological writings from elsewhere besides the local Southern Baptist Church or Assembly of God.
      Do you people even use your brains at all? I'm almost embarrassed to call myself a Christian with people who think like this.

      - Nikki HUS July 29, 2009 4:50PM

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    • lulubell
      God is Love?

      So, I ask you this - if we are All "created in God's image" and "God is love," then why would such a loving god intentionally create an entire class of His Children who are relegated to live their lives without the love of another without being cast into hell? How does that even make sense? Why would a father would be so cruel to his own children , especially if that is the way He created them to be?

      - lulubellUS August 25, 2009 2:26PM

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  • tweldy
    Thank the Founders for Seperation of Church and State

    Could we please just separate into two camps? In some Islamic countries Islamic law tends to apply only to Muslims and Christians are expected to handle their problems. Maybe we could do that here. People who are fundamentalist Christians can all have one set of laws that they have to obey around morality, and the rest of us can use the existing legal system. Fair, right? Christians get to live by their beliefs, and the rest of us can use reasoning, logic, science , and other tools to determine a fair system of laws.

    - tweldyUS July 29, 2009 3:56PM

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    • tek
      The geographical area

      I live in has many Menonites and Amish. I can't begin to guess what all their rules are, but they have many ranging from no electricity to horse drawn carriages, to a strict "uniform". So while I individually would not choose that lifestyle, I respect thier decision to live in this fashion. So ok, that's not much a stretch. What is the most fascinating part of it all is that they DO NOT attempt to legislate their beliefs or lifestyles on the community that they live in. There is no political push to outlaw cars or shorts. As strict as thier religion is, they keep it to themselves. If you ask me, if there really is a god, my money says he likes these folks.

      - tek July 29, 2009 4:40PM

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  • brandon53
    Grace

    1Corinthians 6:11 says, "Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy, you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

    What the church needs to hear is that it is possible to change. I myself was a gay man who lived the lifestyle for over 20 yrs. I was in a committed relationship with a same-sex partner for 13 yrs. We were monogomous. What you or I was is immaterial, it is what we are NOW, because of what Jesus did on the cross. Because of His sacrifice the ground is level at the foot of the cross, there is no room for judgement of each other, those who are found in Christ are now free because of His shed blood and His sacrifice for our sin.
    Please do not banter at eachother, but unite together as the bride of Christ. We are made one, all of our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus, and we are made forever new because of His love for us.
    Ephesians 2:5 says it 'gave Him great pleasure' to adopt each one of us into His family. Lets unite to give thanks as the spotless bride of Christ, the church.
    Just so you know that people can change through the power of Christ, read a few testimonies at the following web site.
    www.graceinaction.us

    - brandon53US July 29, 2009 4:50PM

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    • quantummechanik
      Explain to me

      Bride of Christ, and how if you're now the bride of Christ that isn't a gay marriage --or at least a transgender one.

      - quantummechanikUS July 29, 2009 6:57PM

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      • brandon53
        reply

        The term 'bride of Christ' simply means that I follow Jesus on my journey. I have committed to following His will for my life. I have surrendered my desires for His purpose. The 'bride of Christ' includes anybody who follows Jesus. It means my sins are forgiven and my Hope is discovered through knowing Him. I don't rely on this life, my 'works' to give me Hope, but I find peace in following Jesus. Everything around you testifies to the fact this body in which we now live and have our being will one day fail but the soul will live forever. When one uses the term 'gay' or 'straight' that is a term of ones identity. My identity is not found in who I used to be, but in whom I now put my trust.

        - brandon53US July 30, 2009 2:44AM

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        • quantummechanik
          Identity is multifaceted

          You can put your trust in whomever you want, but that doesn't negate that sexuality is sexuality. Height is height, hair color is hair color, and sexuality is sexuality. These things don't change depending on one's religious affiliation. Behavior can change, just like hair can be dyed and platform shoes can be worn, but inherently, the sexual orientation of a person stays the same.

          - quantummechanikUS July 30, 2009 10:44AM

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          • brandon53
            Its about the HEART

            You are right anyone can change there behsvior for a period of time, but it won't last. But when a person has a change of heart that is different. After all the heart is the center, not the mind or how well or not you think, doesn't matter how sharp you are, you can't deny that the heart when changed is the key. It doesn't change with religous affiliation either, but then Christ wasn't talking about changing your relgious affiliation in scripture, it is ALL ABOUT THE HEART. Believe it or not ones sexual orientation can changs.

            - brandon53US July 30, 2009 12:52PM

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            • lulubell
              No, I Don't Believe It

              So, then all these religious/politically conservative leaders who've been caught in homosexual acts/relationships just don't Really believe in Christ, they just preach against it because . . . .?? I think there's a wealth of proof that simply believing in any given thing doesn't change who you are, and you can scream it from the pulpit, try to enact legislation against it, or hide in priesthood, but at the end of the day, you Still are that person, and the true choice is whether or not to be hypocrite.

              - lulubellUS August 25, 2009 2:43PM

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              • brandon53
                The HEART

                Yes your walk must be proof of what you say. There are many who say they believe in Christ, and yet what they do says the opposite. Jesus says it is great you hear my words, but you must put in to practice what I say. If you dont you are headed for a great crash. We see evidence of this all around us, and this is what turns so many against Christianity. You are right in saying that belief alone won't change a thing. Even the demons believe. Jesus said "Anyone who hears my teachings and doesn't obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on the sand. When the rains and floods came and the winds beat against the house, it will collapse with a mighty crash'. Matthew 7:24-27

                - brandon53US August 25, 2009 3:59PM

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  • quantummechanik
    Good G-d!

    Hi there. I'm the site's resident Jew. Let me tell you a bit about who I'm afraid of.

    Nazis scare me.
    Gays do not scare me.

    Nazis are trying to exterminate me.
    Gays are not trying to exterminate me.

    Nazis are trying to exterminate gays.
    This should signify something to the gentile population of the world...

    - quantummechanikUS July 29, 2009 6:43PM

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    • tek
      Bout time

      you jumped in Quantum.

      - tek July 29, 2009 6:57PM

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      • quantummechanik
        I've been crazy-go-nuts busy

        I leave for a few days, and the world goes crazy...

        This, the Glenn Beck thing, arrgh.

        You're all grounded.

        - quantummechanikUS July 29, 2009 7:08PM

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        • tek
          lol

          "This, the Glenn Beck thing, arrgh."

          I resemble that statement.

          - tek July 29, 2009 7:12PM

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          • quantummechanik
            I don't get Christians

            I don't get goy in general, but this sort of thing really annoys me to no end.

            Be homophobic. Be as homophobic as you want to be. BUT STOP QUOTING OUR STUFF OUT OF CONTEXT.

            There are so many aspects of that faith that just boggle my mind. Maybe you have to be raised Christian to understand it, or surrounded by them, but it just doesn't hold up to rationality. And I've got a pretty big tolerance for irrationality. I have a G-d too.

            - quantummechanikUS July 29, 2009 7:23PM

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            • tek
              they are lost

              I know I will take a beating on this one. There are so many sects of Christian churches, and indeed each church within one denomination is different from the other.

              They don't teach the same thing, interpret the bible in the same way, or practice the same faith. And I find it to be the greatest of reliefs that the vocal minority is exactly that, the minority. The other 200 million Christians aren't this loopy. Or at least publicy so.


              "just doesn't hold up to rationality"

              Yep.

              My saddest point though is that this Homophobia is not really a religious thing. They capitalize on it better than anyone else, but people in general just have a problem with gays. Blame society on the whole.

              - tek July 29, 2009 7:37PM

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              • mike1948
                Them.

                People need a them to blame thing on so they don't have to blame themselves. It used to be the Jews but that became politically incorrect, so now it's the gays.

                - mike1948US July 30, 2009 1:26AM

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            • Luxe
              better choice of words

              Surely you are aware that "goy" is an insulting term to many. Please refrain - as it has nothing to do with this topic. The purpose of this forum is not to throw around derogatory terms.

              - LuxeCA August 17, 2009 11:41PM

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        • SolarSanitizer
          "You're all grounded."

          Crappit.

          Just when it started getting good, to boot.

          (We were crazy before you left.)

          - SolarSanitizerUS July 29, 2009 7:39PM

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  • planetspinz
    heterosupremacists

    The argument made here reflects the exact same propaganda used by the Nazis. Hitler and his henchmen believed that only they were superior to everyone who disagreed with them, including Jews, gays and lesbians, and even Christians. They were supremacists, believing that only their form of christianity and their definition of normal-- Aryan, should have the right to live.

    They were not alone in their belief. In fact the Roman Empire followed by the Holy Roman Empire started it all, believing that Jews should be killed because they were Jews, born that way. During the middle ages, the Catholic inquistioners kept that myth going, and continued killing Jews, and Muslims, and anyone they claimed were heretics.

    This is all based in the bronze age bible where people believed the sun revolved around the flat earth, and the only people who existed were the ones they knew about.

    All those biblical laws are based on tribal allegience. If you belonged to one tribe, you behaved according to those laws. If you did not follow those laws, you were an outsider and kicked out of the tribe.

    The problem continuing with that "them" and "us" thinking resulted in Nazis, and "us" exterminated "them" - them being Jews, gays & lesbians and Christians.

    When the allies liberated the Nazi death prisons , they put the gays and lesbians in prison, continuing the supremacist delusion that only heterosexuals should be free to live their lives as they wanted to, because they were superior to homosexuals.

    Now which part of the Nazi philosophy do you agree with -- that Jews are inferior or that gays and lesbians are inferior and should not have the same freedoms as everyone else.

    The problem in America is that a heterosupremacist theocRATS join the tyrannical voting bloc lynch mob, and believe that the rights of gay and lesbian Americans depend on their approval, acceptance, agreement or tolerance.

    What if my rights did not depend on your approving of my life at all? What if you could go on with your heterosupremacist theocRAT delusions of superiority, and I could still marry whomever I loved, could live and work where ever I wanted to, could exercise my second amendment right to join a well organized militia, could adopt children , and live in a country where the constitution applied unconditionally to all Americans?

    And you could go on believing that the sun rotates around a flat earth, and that Adam and Eve were the first human (or the first heteroseuxuals kicked out of paradise). Then would you stop advocating stopping me from having the exact same rights as you do?

    - planetspinzUS July 29, 2009 8:31PM

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  • Just Jennifer
    Unbelievable...

    To compare homosexuality to Nazism is simply absurd. IF homosexuality is a sin, it is certainly nowhere near the worst of sins. It is more comparable to adultery or fornication than anything else. And most Christians treat those as non-issues these days.

    The Holocaust resulted in the murder of six million of God's Chosen People, not to mention the other groups that were also targeted. And one of the groups targeted was homosexuals, so the comparison becomes bizarre.

    And such a comparison trivializes the Holocaust. That is the basis of Godwin's Law which basically holds that the one making the comparsion has effectively lost the argument.

    - Just JenniferUS July 30, 2009 1:26AM

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  • tek
    censored

    Ok, my original post (was the first in this thread and had 12 recommendations) has been censored out. While I fully recognize the complete lack of bubblegum drops and sugar fairies, I don't believe it containted vitriol to the point of censorship .

    So please allow me to reduce my opinion down to this:

    Christians, please get out of our bedrooms.

    I am quite sure that will not be censored.

    - tek July 30, 2009 8:14PM

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  • childrencryingout
    Should the church fight homosexuality?

    1. Not born homosexual because there is no gene.
    2. Its a behavior and condemned by the Bible as a sin.
    3. The homosexual lifestyle is unclean and unsanitary based on personal testimonies of sexual activities.
    4. Majority of homosexual men do not live to die of old age due to consequences of promiscuous and dangerous environment .
    5. Hostility is bedrock of homosexual movement as witnessed after passing of prop. 8 with rampant criminal activity.
    6. Causes many adverse mental disorders including Gender Identity Disorder, Proclivity toward dangerous choices, and many die of aids an uncurable horrific death.
    Should the church fight homosexuality ? ANSWER: Yes! And many are already!

    - childrencryingoutUS August 4, 2009 4:01PM

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    • quantummechanik
      Rebutting

      A point by point rebuttal

      1) People are born with things that are unrelated to their genotype. There is a difference between "Genetic" and "biological".

      2) Many things are condemned by the bible as sinful. The Church has not made much of an effort to oppose them.

      3) I don't know how much time you spend listening to gays and lesbians describe their sex lives, but I am happy to tell you about some of the things I've seen, heard, and done that were less than sanitary in my heterosexual goings-on.

      4) That's just a lie.

      5) Also a lie. And hostility is bedrock of homosexual movement because of the anger after prop 8 ? How about hostility being the bedrock of the civil rights movement? Heck, how about violence being the bedrock of Christianity. See the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Holocaust.

      6) That's another lie. Gender Dysmorphia is unrelated to sexual orientation and is caused by a brain structure that is mismatched with chromosomes. Saying that gays have a proclivity towards dangerous choices because of AIDS is a bit like saying white people have a proclivity towards dangerous choices because of skiing and hiking accidents.

      - quantummechanikUS August 4, 2009 4:24PM

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    • SolarSanitizer
      I think a lot of this information...

      ...Comes from a singular source: Paul Cameron.

      At first blush, his work seems credible and following the scientific method. However, as we scratch the surface, we find that his work is not only held in sort of a mild contempt by most statisticians, sociologists, and other scientists, but tends to look hokey even to laymen such as myself.

      For example, in his 1983 ISIS survey, casual inspection reveals that his sample is so small in number, from such a small geographical area, that it could likely cancel itself out when the margin of error is considered.

      Furthermore, his hypothesis is supported by his findings, instead of his findings leading to a hypothesis.


      I do have a question, though.

      How can you say that there is no so-called 'gay gene'?

      The proposed study to look for a genetic commonality among homosexuals was soundly rejected by the gay community. From where do you get this information? Cite your source, childrencryingout.

      - SolarSanitizerUS August 4, 2009 6:52PM

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      • mike1948
        Gay gene?

        All the evidence for or against a gay gene has been statistical. No one has actually looked for a gay gene.

        - mike1948US August 4, 2009 11:03PM

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  • childrencryingout
    Since there is not a homosexual gene...

    Then I assume that we are in charge of our own sexual destiny, unlike choosing our skin color or eye color, we can choose our sexual preferences. Which must be why schools are recruiting children into homosexuality . I use these testimonies as my proof:

    Alan Chambers is one of the nation's leading speakers on gender issues and is the president of Exodus International, the largest evangelical organization dealing with this topic in the world today. His personal story as a gay teen and young adult who overcame unwanted homosexuality has inspired audiences around the world and he offers unique insight into how this issue personally affects individuals and the broader culture. Alan has addressed public forums around the world and across the United States. Alan is a frequent guest on media outlets across the country and has been interviewed by Time magazine, ABC's 20/20, Good Morning America, Nightline, and MSNBC's Buchanan & Press. His writing has appeared in The Boston Globe, The Los Angeles Times, The Orlando Sentinel and The Washington Times and he is the author of God's Grace & The Homosexual Next Door: Reaching the Heart of the Gay Men & Woman in Your World. In 2005, Charisma magazine named him among the top Christian leaders advancing the future of the American church . He and his wife, Leslie, make their home in Orlando, Florida and are the proud parents of a son and daughter. You can reach Alan through the Exodus International Web site or by calling 407-599-6872 or 888-264-0877.

    Richard Cohen, M.A., is a psychotherapist, educator, and one of the leading experts in the field of sexual reorientation. He is the author of Coming Out Straight: Understanding and Healing Homosexuality and Gay Children, Straight Parents: A Plan for Family Healing, and Alfie's Home. Richard is the director of the International Healing Foundation, a non-profit organization which offers consultations/evaluations, teleconferencing classes, healing seminars, and speaking engagements. Cohen travels extensively conducting seminars on marital relations, communication skills, parenting skills, sexual reorientation, and healing from abuse and addictions.

    Richard holds a master's degree in psychology and works in child abuse treatment services, family reconciliation services, general counseling, and support groups. As an expert in sexual reorientation therapy–both as a counselor and through his own personal experience transitioning from a homosexual to a heterosexual orientation–he has been interviewed by newspapers, radio and television media, including appearances on 20/20, Larry King Live, and The O'Reilly Factor. Richard and his wife have three children.

    William Consiglio is the founder and director of HOPE ministries of Connecticut. He is the author of the book Homosexual No More: Practical Strategies for Christians Overcoming Homosexuality. Dr. Consiglio provides support, education , and counseling.
    Steven A. Cramer. For over twenty years, author Steven A. Cramer has worked to serve the cause of helping people overcome bad habits and addictions, feelings of defeat and worthlessness. After suffering more than 30 years of sexual addiction, he was finally led to the Savior and received the mighty change of heart described as being "born again." He has since authored ten books to help people find a way past their mortal limitations and receive the blessings of the grace and atonement of Jesus Christ. Each book testifies of the love and power of Jesus Christ and his infinite atonement to change our hearts and fallen natures and to set us free from every mistake and barrier that prevents us from fully experiencing the Lord's forgiveness and love. Some of the titles include: Conquering Your Own Goliaths, Putting on the Armor of God, The Worth of Every Soul, and In the Arms of His Love.
    Mike Haley. After 15 years of homosexual activity, Mike found freedom through Christ with the help of several friends. One of those friends, author Jeff Konrad, used letters exchanged with Mike to write the book You Don't Have to be Gay. Mike has worked with Love in Action helping others overcome homosexuality.
    Kristin Johnson is the Executive Director of OneByOne. She is a graduate of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (MDiv), Columbia University (MA) and Anderson University (BA). She served as a Peace Corps volunteer in Albania and worked for the US Peace Corps in Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan. She was a director at the Savannah College of Art and Design and an instructor at Boston University. A long-time Presbyterian, Kristin brings to OneByOne strong relational and administrative skills. She also has a strong biblical understanding of God's ability to transform a person's sexual brokenness, including her own.

    And more and more people are coming OUT OF HOMOSEXUALITY on a daily basis, so, it appears that the apa may just need to make more amends to their insistance that homosexuality is not changable and is genetic, both are obviously incorrect!

    - childrencryingoutUS August 5, 2009 9:31AM

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    • learnlogic
      False

      So the millions of people who know their own development and thought processes are wrong to say that they did not choose to be homosexual and cannot change their orientation? You, an apparent heterosexual, are claiming that you contain an understanding about this subject moreso than a person who is actually homosexual?

      Not to mention that you are misquoting the APA. Their stance on homosexuality is the following:

      "There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."

      http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html


      They simply report the current inability to conclude what causes homosexuality. They do, however, note that most homosexuals indicate they did not experience any sort of ability to choose their orientation. Just like most heterosexuals will indicate they did not experience any sort of ability to choose their orientation either. They just always had heterosexual attractions as indicated by their brain interpretations.

      - learnlogicUS August 5, 2009 12:01PM

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      • quantummechanik
        I've had a sort of brainwave

        Or some such thing, where I get an idea. I can't remember the term for it.

        I'm pretty comfortable in my heterosexuality. There's not really any amount of "gay lifestyle advertising" that could get me to change my like for the women and my..ambivalence, I suppose, to the fellows.

        What if that's not the same for everyone? What if these "It's a choice" people believe that they really could be recruited, that given a sufficiently strong sell, they'd just switch?

        This implies two possibilities. One, they're not as happy in their heterosexuality as I am in mine. Or two, they're all a bit bi-curious.

        - quantummechanikUS August 5, 2009 12:12PM

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      • childrencryingout
        Well...

        its just more of that talking out both sides of the mouth thingy they are really good at doing

        http://www.apahelpcenter.org/articles/article.php?id=31

        APA...IS SEXUAL ORIENTATION A CHOICE?
        APA...NO!

        - childrencryingoutUS August 5, 2009 1:13PM

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        • learnlogic
          Okay, but...

          Thank you for providing a source. From that source we read:

          "Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed."

          This is a general feeling among most psychologists (not all, of course). But you must consider at least one part of the reasoning behind the APA making such a statement. Millions of people who are actually homosexual indicate they never chose to be homosexual. Do you really think so many people would lie about such an issue? Being homosexual is generally ridiculed in society , so why would so many people offer themselves up to this ridicule if they could simply "choose" to have a heterosexual orientation? The answer is that they did not choose the way their brain interprets attraction. It is inherent to them. Just like it is inherent to you that your brain interprets an attraction to the opposite sex.

          - learnlogicUS August 5, 2009 2:15PM

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    • Luxe
      Exodus and coming 'out' from gayness

      "And more and more people are coming OUT OF HOMOSEXUALITY on a daily basis"... Perhaps. But more and more people are coming out of heterosexual lives also and coming to terms with their gayness. That's how it is.

      Sure many men & women who learn early on that they are not heterosexual and struggle with it to please relatives or their churches - then finally break out and identify as gay - only to live that for a few years then realize that's not them fully either. Some still want to fit in with friends & family and others just realize they are attracted to men and women. Not unusual, not abnormal and certainly nothing to be judged for. Some of those can then manage to return to the much simpler life of heterosexual relationships. These are the people you hear about in the Exodus program and others. And good for them if that's a preferred route for them to take.

      But many do not have that struggle, and instead are quite solid in their sexuality, straight or gay.

      - LuxeCA August 17, 2009 11:09PM

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      • homogenius
        Don't knock Exodus.

        Hundreds (and maybe thousands) of LGBT christians have become socialized and taken their first steps to self-acceptance as LGBT people by attending these groups. I would never have dared to step into a gay bar until I attended one of these groups 25 years ago. Of course, before I left I was suicidal....

        Exodus and its member groups have shifted dramatically during that time. They have become even more out on the fringes of evangelicaldom. Originally, they stayed out of politics . Now they are beholden to the radical right. Their dirty little secret is that the extreme religious media giants like Dobson and Robertson use gay-bashing as a huge cash cow, but return little of the money to ex-gay groups. Indeed, Dobson's FoF has just jetisonned the Love Won Out conferences.

        Unfortunately, many LGBT christians struggling to reconcile their orientation and beliefs will get sucked into these abuse centers. And inclusive churches and support groups in LGBT communities will have to clean up the mess. But for some, it remains a first step towards the light.

        - homogeniusUS August 25, 2009 1:07PM

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  • WayOfTheDodo
    "Church Should Fight Blacks Like It Did Nazism"

    The bigot named Laurie Higgins might as well have written "Church Should Fight Blacks Like It Did Nazism". Homosexuality is an involuntary trait, just like the color of your skin. If you are going to fight what someone is, you are using the exact same argument as the racists who wanted to "fight blacks".

    Bigotry is obivously alive and well in America. Did they learn nothing from history?

    It's an insult to Martin Luther King Jr. to even mention him while basically using the same arguments as one would use against blacks.

    Truly disgusting.

    - WayOfTheDodo August 5, 2009 3:41PM

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  • levi944
    The overlooked, but bottom line is...

    Homosexual "acts" are just that. An act and nothing more. Nobody is calling on you to affirm it a "moral act", such as the article implied. I for one, don't need anybody to judge my acts as moral or immoral. I'm quite sure my position of morality and ethics are extremely different than a lot of peoples. The difference is that I try to base mine on over-all reason, rather than my personal faith. The truth is that religion , no matter which one, does not get to speak for everyone. It shouldn't get to determine what anyone else does. The religious call for others to conform to a particular belief system, is no more justified, nor worthy than my call for religion to abandon it's own beliefs.

    - levi944US August 18, 2009 12:17AM

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  • ussitano
    homosexual acts vs homosexuality

    I just want to say that what the church should condemn (not fight) are homosexual acts, not homosexuality (attraction towards one individual of the same sex). The first is morally reprovable (we are not talking about laws here) because for the church human sexuality is a gift from god and should be only used in a married couple (man + wife) and has two specific purposes that shouldn't be divided: to unite the couple and to to have children and is accomplished by means of chastity. Any sexual act dividing these two purposes is morally wrong. I don't agree at all comparing homosexuality with nazism.

    - ussitanoES August 21, 2009 12:41PM

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    • lulubell
      the "Acts"

      If this were only against Sex, that would be bad enough, but the "Acts" of which you refer to as "morally wrong" are Love and the Expression of Love to/with another. I find it interesting that hetrosexuals have no problem with the spectrum of love and relationships for themselves, but reduce same for gays down to just sex. And in that vain, if there were no sex involved, would you then have a problem with two men or two women in a loving committed relationship?

      - lulubellUS August 25, 2009 2:58PM

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      • thebigmike
        No pleasing some people…

        The reason for putting emphasis on the “Acts” is to point out that despite the common belief, those who are against homosexuality do not hate the practitioners, but rather believe that what they are doing is immoral. As evidence of this, read the July 14, 2009 article “Parents Should fight ‘Comprehensive’ Sex-Ed” that IFI published on OV.

        They make their position that heterosexual intercourse outside of marriage is immoral quite clear with passages like “Parents must not simply tell their children to refrain from sex until marriage. They must discuss repeatedly in formal sit-down instructional times and informal teachable moments what marriage is.” and “Sexual intercourse is the act that seals the covenant between a husband and a wife.”

        We all have natural and learned strengths and weaknesses in our character. By focusing on the “Acts” IFI is attempting to point show that they feel the same way about practicing homosexuals as, say, Alcoholics Anonymous feels about practicing alcoholics: they think what you’re doing is wrong, realize the urge to give in is strong, but know that having an urge and giving into it are two separate things.

        - thebigmikeUS August 25, 2009 5:16PM

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      • ussitano
        Reply

        reply to Lulubell

        In my post i explained the reasons why the church is against homosexual acts. It is for the same reason it condemns the use of artificial birth-control methods, masturbation, pre- marriage sex, etc... It is because for the church sexuality is a gift from god with two specific and unseperable goals. Any sexual act that doesn't respect this idea of sexuality is against nature ans so against the catholic morale. In the cathechism of the catholic church it is said that homosexuals should be respected and aided. The major problem is with the gay lobby (the same one that forced to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder since 1973) that is forcing the idea that homosexuality is a valid choice just as heterosexuality is.

        Maybe these acts are in many cases expressions of love. But that is a love that cannot grow, that is limited from the beginning. That's why marriage is so important: it gives the relationship a higher level because it is open to life. That's why gay marriage is absurd, calling it so doesn't make it real.
        On the other side i think that the many ex homosexuals that are now happily married, prove that it is in some cases possible with professional help to make it to repress their impulses and live a life in order with the churh morale. It shouldn't obviuosly be imposed but at least the path should be left open for those who want to take it. And that the gay lobby isn't ready to accept.
        In the case there is no sex involved i don't think it can be disapproved, if we are talking about platonic love. I don't think there are many such cases as i don't know any heterosexual able to do it. Furthermore it is well known the difficulties that homosexual relations are to be last longing.

        - ussitanoES August 26, 2009 8:55AM

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