Opposing Views: NEWS:Parents Get Jail for Relying on Prayer in Daughter's Death

Parents Get Jail for Relying on Prayer in Daughter's Death

By Opposing Views Editorial Staff , To Protect and Serve Opposing Views - October 07, 2009

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The Wisconsin parents who relied on prayer instead of seeking medical attention for their dying daughter have received six months in jail and 10 years probation. Dale and Leilani Neumann were convicted in separate trials of second degree homicide. They could have received up to 25 years in prison.

Kara Neumann, 11, died in March 2008 surrounded by a prayer group at her family's home in rural Weston in central Wisconsin. It was later determined she had an undiagnosed, but treatable, form of diabetes. Her parents said at their trials that they believed healing came from God, and that they never expected Kara to die.

But prosecutors countered that the Neumanns recklessly killed their youngest of four children by ignoring obvious symptoms of severe illness as she became too weak to speak, eat, drink or walk. They said the couple had a legal duty to take their daughter to a doctor but relied totally on prayer for healing.

In handing down the sentence, Marathon county circuit court Judge Vincent Howard told the Neumanns they were "very good people, raising their family, who made a bad decision, a reckless decision. God probably works through other people," he told the parents, "some of them doctors."

Howard's sentence is actually quite unique. Instead of serving the six months all at once, Howard ordered them to serve one month per year for six years, so they could "think about Kara and what God wants you to learn from this." Since they still have three children, one parent would serve the term in March and the other in September.

Howard quickly stayed the jail sentence while the Neumanns appeal their convictions.

But the probation goes into effect right away. That includes having their surviving children undergo regular and random health checks until they reach the age of 18, and seeking medical attention if their children become seriously ill or injured.

At the sentencing, Leilani Neumann told the judge that she doesn't think they've been treated properly, but didn't go into details. "We feared showing remorse for the prosecution taking it wrong," she said.

Read more on OpposingViews.com: Was Father's Conviction in "Death by Prayer" Case Just?

Regarding Article

NEWS:Parents Get Jail for Relying on Prayer in Daughter's Death

These parents took it too far.

And got off lightly.

A guy selling videos of a dog-fight got 3 years recently.

- SolarSanitizer October 7, 2009 12:08PM

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Seriously?

What's with the inflammatory headline? The parents weren't thrown in jail for praying. They were thrown in jail for denying their child life-saving medical care! Is this part of the "war on Christians ?"

- DonLangosta October 7, 2009 12:36PM

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- I thought it was clear enough
  
  I suppose the title could have been clearer but I don't think it implied the jail was for the praying but for the death. They could have made it clearer by getting straight to the point:
  "parents jailed for neglect of their child leading to daughters death"
  Because that's what this really is. They've neglected their child. I've seen a number of these cases lately, though most the government has stepped in to save the kid from their crazy parents before they die.
  
  To those who consider this a matter of religious freedom , would you be allowed to use prayer instead of food for the child? How far can you take that?
  
  - State of Reason October 14, 2009 11:13AM
  
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  - Thanks
    
    Good update on the title. That's really the only thing with which I took issue.
    
    And to answer your question, you can give a child prayer instead of food for about a week. If you're also using prayer instead of water , about 3 days. :)
    
    - DonLangosta October 14, 2009 11:50AM
    
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- All you've got to do is read.
  
  They were sentenced because they "relied" on prayer , not becaue of prayer. I'm a Christian, and what bothers me is the ignorance often shown such as some supposed "war on Christian". Maybe some Christians just do dumb things and are called on it. I bet you are strongly against abortion , yet you don't see how these parents allowed their child to die. If they want to show their faith in healing, do it for themselves, not a child who depends upon their protection and good judgment. This is really NO different than the stories I've heard of parents putting a child's hand over fire because they "believed" the child to be demon possessed and the fire would banish it. You'd probably say that is ridiculous, but really, where is the difference? Both are examples of parents using their faith to put a child at risk.
  These parents got off mercifully by this judge. By the "letter of the law " they should have gone to jail for the maximum. This judge had mercy on them knowing their loss, but wanted them to know that their behavior was extremely foolish. They had no right to put their child at such a risk.
  
  - creoledap October 14, 2009 11:39AM
  
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  - Whoops
    
    It would really suck if after all that I turned out to be a pro-choice non-Christian who was using "War on Christians " facetiously. So I'll just keep quiet. :)
    
    - DonLangosta October 14, 2009 11:47AM
    
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I think a more accurate title would be

Parents get jail for not getting medical help for dying child. The prayer part was sort of an afterthought. People are going to read this and assume that the government is now imprisoning people for praying for their kids .

- quantummechanik October 7, 2009 12:41PM

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- Nope
  
  As a matter of fact, the title is accurate. They relied on prayer instead of actual medical care.
  
  - WayOfTheDodo October 14, 2009 3:27PM
  
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  - The title was changed
    
    It used to be "Parents were jailed for prayer " or something.
    
    - quantummechanik October 14, 2009 9:04PM
    
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Ditto what DonLangosta said

DonLangosta beat me to the punch; your headline implies the parents were jailed for praying. They were jailed for not seeking medical care for their daughters! Honestly, the Christian far right wing just manufactures crap about the government "repressing" their right to pray, etc....

- Absinthe October 7, 2009 12:43PM

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intentionally misleading title

The title is typically misleading, leaving out the real reason for the arrest . The parents refused to get her the medical help she needed. That is what's illegal , not praying.

They were not convicted for "praying for dying daughter's recovery". If that were the case, then there would not be enough jails in the world to handle offenders.

- kayzhun October 7, 2009 12:46PM

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- Relying on prayer
  
  They relied on prayer . It shows the danger of such superstitious beliefs.
  
  - WayOfTheDodo October 14, 2009 3:27PM
  
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Haven't they figured it out yet?

Haven't there been enough cases of this sort to suggest that praying for life doesn't mean having it? What an absurd and archaic idea. I think the Judge was soft on them, as they should loose their children and go straight to jail. Very light sentense for second degree murder . If this were not related to religion and some cult had commited this crime , they would have received a much harsher punishment.

- PleaseChange October 7, 2009 12:55PM

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- I agree
  
  Maybe, just maybe, if they sincerely apologized and promised to take their kids to the Dr in the future I'd consider this an appropriate sentence. Realistically though most of these parents aren't willing to do that so yes, the kids should probably be placed in protective custody .
  
  - State of Reason October 14, 2009 11:18AM
  
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Title is perfectly appropriate

The title says "Parents RELYING on prayer ....". The parents should get life in prison for this. In the eyes of these people, anything related to doctors , hospitals, medicine , etc. is of the devil. The medical attention is replacing Gods work. So if God tells these people to rely on him in lieu of receiving medical attention, that would have absolutely saved the child's life, and that is what the parent's truly believe, they should absolutely be prosecuted. Much more so than 6 months Medicine=Science=PROVEN!. Religion=A book of stories=NOT PROVEN!
By the way, why didn't God save the poor child's life through prayer?

- hollap October 7, 2009 1:00PM

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Lunacy

While I agree that the title of this article is not directly accurate, the decision of the parents to pray for their child in the belief that she would be healed is utterly absurd.

- GreenBean October 7, 2009 1:02PM

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stubborn stupid dogma drones...

1. The parents did NOT "get jail for praying". Nobody every denied their right to pray, so quit pretending this has anything to do with religious freedom .

2. They were convicted because of negligence, stupid stubborn willful negligence, that directly caused their daughter's death. They knew that the necessary medical help was readily available, yet chose to ignore it.

3. To any similar-minded parents who would defend these idiots, I suggest: Allow god alone to feed your kids . Allow god alone to clothe your kids. Allow god alone to heal your kids' strep throat and broken arms. Allow god alone to brush your kids' teeth. Allow god alone to protect your kids from smallpox and polio. In this way, you'll allow god alone to clean up the gene pool.

- JamesD October 7, 2009 1:07PM

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Punishment not enough

There is nothing wrong with prayer , but it is no substitute for medical attention. People have the right to to believe in this nonsense, but when someone dies because of it, the parties and the church that promulgates these beliefs should be held accountable. The parents should have received the maximum sentence and the church should go to the place they fear the most.

- Ronald Punch October 7, 2009 1:12PM

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Right on!

JamesD, you couldn't have said it any better than #3!

- hollap October 7, 2009 1:13PM

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They don't pass the safety test

I believe these parents were completely wrong in their decision to let the Almighty deal with problems that we've been given the means ( doctors ) to deal with.

Having said that, I must say that these grieving parents do not meet the requirements of my safety test.That is...will I feel safer walking the streets at night if these two are locked up for twenty-five years?

Religious zealots or not, they've already taken the worst hit any parent can ever take.

Also, I agree wit the above statements about the inflammatory headline for this story.

- mick7744 October 7, 2009 1:27PM

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- Please elaborate
  
  I don't understand. Are you saying that prison sentences should only be handed down in cases where public safety is a concern?
  
  Does "second degree homicide " mean nothing?
  
  - Rice klowN October 7, 2009 3:07PM
  
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- They need 1 more hit.
  
  The hit of having their kids taken away and put in a house where the parents won't let them die from treatable illness. That's the public safety issue we need to address here. Protect the rest of those kids from their parents neglect. They'd do it if someone's crazy meth addiction led to the neglect death of their kid so why not their crazy religion addiction?
  
  - State of Reason October 14, 2009 11:29AM
  
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Its a good day on opposingviews

At the time of my writing this comment, not one member has tried to defend the parents actions.

I weep tears of joy today and sit comfortably knowing the company I keep. We don't always agree on very many things here (eh, Solar?), but I'm happy to see we agree that these parents were woefully wrong in their actions.

...

But then again, we haven't heard from any "angels" on the matter... ;)

- Rice klowN October 7, 2009 3:13PM

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- ha
  
  That's only because "hallelujahchorus" hasn't seen this yet
  
  - learnlogic October 7, 2009 3:52PM
  
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This

This joke I've said twice on here, but it sums this up well I think.

There was a ship that sunk in the ocean . Everyone, but one man drown. This man thought that Jesus must have saved him from his sinning ship mates.
Eventually a ship comes by to rescue him and he tells them that he's fine and Jesus will save him.
A second boat comes by and asks him if he needs help. He again reply's," no Jesus will save me."
A third boat comes by with the same results.
Shortly after the third boat the man drowns.
The man get's to heaven and is a little confused on why he died so he seeks out Jesus and asks him why he didn't save him. He tells Jesus about all the good he had done and how he had accepted him as his savior.
Jesus asks the man,"Didn't you get the boats I sent?"

- ttut21 October 7, 2009 4:43PM

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What If they turned to medicine?

I'm just wondering, hypothetically, what if the parents had taken their daughter to a physician and he had not been able to save her? Would the parents have been convicted for not trying Faith Healing?

- Mormonides October 7, 2009 8:32PM

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- Of course!
  
  Cause it's the same thing. Faith in medicine is just like Faith in God's healing touch!
  
  I mean, look at the centuries of documented progress and successes of Faith Healing! The sheer professional consistency and universal application of Faith Healing is as certain as if God himself went to medical school or something!
  
  - Submariner October 8, 2009 3:08AM
  
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The rights of the poeple

When did we give rights concerning our children 's well-being into the hands of government ?

If Congress has made “no law respecting an establishment of religion , or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” how can any court of law determine that a death was not the will of God? Is that not a proclamation that faith and thus God is irrational? According to the First Amendment is that not enforcing a law agains religion?

It’s like the court is saying – put your faith in medicine rather than in God or suffer the severity of legal consequences.

I am an atheist, and I am a lesbian and, like most homosexuals in this country, I struggle against those who would oppress my kind and deny the freedoms meant for us all.

That would not stop me from joining with any believer in as great a struggle against tyranny itself. The non-belief of an atheist is not a reason to suppress the religious rights granted to people of this country. The homosexual community struggles against the lies that suggest we are not worthy to raise children in a same-sex household, or to teach other children, or go to church with them and much more. So what makes it right for us to tell believers that their belief makes them just as incompetent as parents as they say we are?

We cannot have it both ways. There is a vast difference between outright abuse and neglect and the often painful decisions surrounding the medical treatment of children.

I believe that every adult has the RIGHT to seek alternative health care treatments for themselves and their family, and I consider the use of faith as just another alternative treatment. If I deny this right to people of faith I would be discriminating against them by denying their First Amendment rights, just as rights have been denied to the LGBT community.

I am outraged that courts of law can dictate to loving and attentive parents what medical treatments they must abide by for their own children. The homosexual community are quick to blame the ‘religious right’ for our discriminatory woes but it is not the people of faith who have denied us our rights – it is the government that has stripped them from us by denying our equality under the greatest social contract in history. Our fate was given into the hands of the same courts that also deny the religious faction their rights to decide what medical treatment their own children are ‘required’ to undergo.

Perhaps some would say it is fitting that those of faith should finally feel the uneven hand of justice. If the courts can rule that a person’s faith gives them the right to deny legal medical procedures to certain groups of people (i.e. abortion , in vitro fertilization, sex -reassignment procedures...etc.) then that person’s faith should be of no less value in determining what medical treatment their children should have.

The point is we fight amongst ourselves, for rights the government has taken away. WAKE UP AMERICA. When court systems allow religious values to be discriminatory (under the guise of majority rule) and the same courts are allowed to side-step the Bill of Rights to override the same religious values—who can say the scales of justice are not in balance—because no one is guaranteed what our social contract calls inalienable rights.

The wrong done to others is no excuse for allowing wrong to be returned. We must allow believers their conscientious objection, when applied to themselves, and the free exercise of their faith. In return they must concede that the law of the land is equality and individuals have the right to choose abortion, gay marriage , same sex parenting and so on. We must return the court system to being upholders of the law while returning our family decisions to the family and the rights of an individual to the self.

- thebigpicture October 8, 2009 12:32AM

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- Oh my god...
  
  If this is a real, sincere post, I should be quite amazed at the near infinite asynchronous ideology of it.
  
  'We the people' (aka the Federal Government of the United States of America) are protecting children here, nothing more or less.
  
  So many people act like all the government employees are grown in evil tainted test tubes in some secret military base. We are the freaking people!
  
  - Submariner October 8, 2009 3:14AM
  
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- I don't know where to start
  
  You ask "When did we give rights concerning our children 's well-being into the hands of government ?"
  That's always been the case. In fact everyone's well being is in the hands of the government in some way. If you were being beaten and raped for being a lesbian would you refuse help from the police (government)? If your house was burning down would you refuse help from the fire dept (government)? If Canada was attacking would you refuse help from the military (government)? That's what government does. That's the major point of government, protecting our rights to Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. In this case, Life.
  
  Nobody is suggesting laws restricting faith or religion , only protecting children from harm. If your religion harms a child then government has to intervene because who else can protect the child?
  
  This isn't about restricting alternative treatment. This is about forcing them to use SOME treatment. If the parents had shown that they were doing something, seeking some treatment then I'd be more open about this.
  
  I'm perfectly comfortable with majority ruling on this when the majority is saying you have to take care of your child.
  
  - State of Reason October 14, 2009 11:47AM
  
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- fake post or really strange
  
  "thebigpicture" is who she/he claims to be. I'll just stop there, because that is all this "argument" deserves.
  
  - creoledap October 14, 2009 11:49AM
  
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Good defense. Wrong case.

It sounds like a good defense for when I can't pay for mandatory health insurance . I can always claim I don't believe in the medical and insurance industries. I'll pray and see what happens.

- truthseeker1 October 14, 2009 12:46PM

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just

Awesomejuice.

- jaker277 October 14, 2009 1:50PM

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How many where prayed for but still died?

We are rightly outraged when a small number of parents deny medical care for their children and rely only upon prayer , and the child still dies .

Millions more Christians and theists have relied upon prayer AND medical care for sick children and adults, and they still died. But, those deaths have rarely if ever shaked their faith in prayer.

If they lived, it was god 's intervention. They were blessed. If they died, it was god's will. It's a win-win for the gods. Where is that P.T.Barnum quote when you need it?

- Stan101 October 14, 2009 1:53PM

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The parents limited girl's chances...

As in other 'faith-only' treatments rather than
faith-plus-medical-care cases, the daughter's
outcome was unfairly and unwisely limited by the faith-only approach to her illness. Even
major mostly-faith believers are allowed to re-
set broken limbs, provide other lifesaving trea
tments as they believe that The Deity has allow
ed mortals to learn helpful interventions and
expects them to follow, "God helps them who hel
p themselves" in appropriate cases...The parent
s shudda allowed the treatment of their daughte
r's diabetes [and observed recommended ongoing
disease-management] as well as prayed..Aaron..

- Aaron October 14, 2009 3:39PM

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The child wasn't dying ...

... until the parents wilful neglect brought her to that state ( diabetes is an easily treated condition, with appropriate care she should have had a long, happy, productive life).

So the parents murdered their child, just as surely as if they had withheld food , water ... or air.

The most primary of all rights we expect in a free society is that especially those who can't care for themselves are protected from harm (which clearly includes the provision of basic care needs), and when that right is abused, those responsible should be brought to justice to account for their actions.

The only difference between these parents and those that abuse their children physically or sexually is their pitiful excuse.

Clearly their sentence is woefully inadequate (and I hope it will be appealed) . The only person who needs a regular month or two in prison to give him time to reflect on his actions ... is the judge.

- mcsblues October 14, 2009 5:04PM

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Christians are Supreme!

Ok, so the child died. She is now out of pain and doesn't have to get regular shots in her belly for the rest of her life. Is that so bad?

Sometimes, God drops people. You never know when your number is up so it is vital to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior if you want to live in the other world known as Heaven.

The Judge was wrong in his decision because people come and go in this world every day. When the body dies , you're still alive because it is your soul that inhabits the body. And you don't need a body to live.

So, with that in mind, the parents should appeal the decision.

Lord Saint Dennis

- LordStDennis October 20, 2009 8:17AM

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