What Does the Bible Really Say About Homosexuality?
By: Jeff Buchanan
Director of the Exodus Church Network
I fell in love with my best friend when I was 17. That’s when I began an earnest quest to find out what the Bible really had to say about homosexuality. Interestingly enough, it addresses the issue right up front in the first chapters of Genesis. God presented to Adam every creature on earth and there was none found comparable. So He created a “suitable” mate for man — a woman. I realized that it is the male/female relationship that God deemed “very good” and no other.
In addition, I found plenty of other Bible passages that clearly defined homosexuality as sin such as Genesis 19:4-11, Leviticus 18:22; 20:13, Judges 19:22, Romans 1:26-27, I Corinthians 6:9 and I Timothy 1:10. And while Jesus never specifically addressed homosexuality, he did echo God’s intent for human relationships and speaks of heterosexuality being the standard in Mark 10:6-9. These answers weren’t what I wanted to hear. I continued to pursue homosexual behavior and told myself, “I don’t care if it’s wrong or not. I can’t help the way I feel.” Still, I could not escape the nagging conflict between my feelings and my faith. I came to the conclusion that I could not ignore what the Bible was telling me and I was going to have to choose to be obedient and trust God with the outcome.
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Denying that something is a sin because we like doing it and seems so natural does not excuse it. Sin is based in the flesh and flesh will not inherit eternal life. Homosexuality is related the pagan religions as form of worship to strange God and is unholy because it is direct opposition to the revealed will of God found in nature. People who want to suppress the Truth are turn over to a depraved mind and exhibit anger to the point of violence because of the cursed state of condemnation that they find themselves in. It is a no win situation to attempt to argue with God because gets the final word. behavior will always be unacceptable to God because God does not change and neither does His word. We are called to change this is repentance and submission to the supreme authority that will always belong to God. God can not be dethroned by the argument of a depraved sinner. He cause us to repent in order to be forgiven. To the ones who obey Him He gives good understanding.
The Bible also says that slavery is okay (Colossians 3:22, 1 Peter 2:18) and that stoning is justice! We've moved past those days and we know now what is right and wrong . And you might say "slavery wasn't bad then", but is there a difference between good slavery and bad slavery? It's still slavery when it comes down to it.
Jesus was all about love.He gaves his life for you.For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death .
Where all imperfect, but the Bible is clear with the words found at (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)“What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom.” however by considering that scripture it is clear that God does not allow imperfection to be a constant excuse for bad conduct. (Jude 4) Jehovah wants humans to clean up, to get their lives in good moral order. The Bible says: "Abhor what is wicked." (Romans 12:9) Why does God take such a strong stand? One reason is that yielding to weakness is harmful. "Whatever a man is sowing, this he will also reap," says the Bible at Galatians 6:7. Those giving in to addictions, greed, and promiscuity often reap a terrible harvest in their lives. But there is a more important reason. Since God is Holy we must be holy (1 Peter 1:16) So a good relationship with are creator requires effort and holy spirit.
I find that people who follow their own instinctual morals, free from religious influence, treat humans as humans, not as creatures to be judged.
http://judiwheeldon.blogspot.com/2009/08/council-bluffs-public-school-teacher.html
That teacher made a true statement.... It is OK to be gay
"Sin" is a religious term, specifically from the Bible and according to the Bible, homosexuality is a "sin".
Even though I am a Christian, and "disagree" with the homosexual life style, I recognize their right to make their own choices and respect their right to live their life the way they want to.
Religiously speaking, homosexuality is a "sin", but in my opinion it is not "wrong".
I, for one, think it's terrible that you denied who you are. God made you the way you are; who are you to question that? I think you should have gone with your feelings.
Many Christians say homosexuality is a choice. Science, logic, common sense, real life accounts, and psychologists all prove this wrong. Any educated Christian or person knows that homosexuality is not a choice. You cannot choose your sexual attractions. They try to use the cop-out that, "its the behavior" but that behavior is caused by the initial sexual attraction, which you cannot change. If you feel you can change your sexual attraction, you might want to re-evaluate your sexuality, because you are not straight, but bi-sexual.
Now within the group of people that think being gay is a choice, they fall in 2 groups.
Group 1: The bigots, who try to find any excuse to condone their discrimination .
Group 2: People who actually are good people, but not informed or know enough about gay people, and thus still think its a choice.
I am speaking to group 2 here. Group 1 are bigots that will never change their mind, but that generation will die out like the racist generations. Group 2 read on.
-Virtually all major psychological and medical experts agree that sexual orientation is NOT a choice
-Most gay people will tell you its not a choice
-Common sense will tell you its not a choice
While science is relatively new to studying homosexuality, studies tend to indicate that its biological.
http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html
Gay, Straight Men's Brain Responses Differ
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0 ,2933,155990,00.html
http://www.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276 /
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/06/16/172 /
And it should also be noted that:
"It is worth noting that many medical and scientific organizations do believe it is impossible to change a person's sexual orientation and this is displayed in a statement by American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association."
But we don't need scientific evidence for this.
(REVERSE THE QUESTIONS IF YOU ARE FEMALE)
I shall ask you this. When you see a naked woman, it goes up right? They turn you on emotionally and sexually right? Now how about when you see a naked man? Does your pulse raise in the same way? Are you enjoying it? Do you go up? Do you feel sexual urges in the same way? Do men turn you on emotionally and sexually? Does male/male porn turn you on sexually? Would you be able to enjoy sex with a man? Do you find men sexually attractive? Could you be happy sexually with a man for the rest of your life? If you are heterosexual, the answer should be no. Otherwise, you might either be bi-sexual or homosexual , and might want to re-evaluate your sexuality. It is well known that a lot of homophobes deny their homosexuality by being aggressive towards it, until they finally accept it. Most people know this is not a choice, and it would be ignorant claiming it so. I know a few gay people who went to a straight club when they were figuring out their sexuality, where women were putting their naked bodies all over them, giving them naked lap dances, not once did the gay men get it up or aroused. But just the picture of a naked guy gets them up easily. Tell me thats choice. Also, why would a gay person, knowing that you will have a rough time in society , knowing that you cant get married unless you live in certain places, knowing that people will pick on you for it, knowing that your closest friends and families might completely turn their back on you, choose to be gay, if they could easily be satisfied by the opposite sex? Because they can't. Simple logic there.
The homosexuality law is there to stop the behavior if you have the attraction like the murder law is there to stop the behavior of murdering if you have the urge to kill.
how does romans say homosexuality is a sin.
(1) homosexuals do not have women..........not from their earliest sexual memories.
(2) one cannot abandon something one has never had.
(3) natural(dictionary)inclination of being according to personal essence
(4) shame based lust....anything shamebased is a about self defilement that causes self hatred and self loathing. anything motivated by lust is committed to satiating the lust. the individuals involved are mere instruments for satiating the lust. there is no commitment between individuals.
homosexuals bond out of mutual love, affection, devotion, trust, and respect for a shared committed life together, the same as with heterosexual bonding. it is about self affirmation.
to say that romans is about homosexuality, is like saying that orgies are about heterosexual bonding.
I'm an atheist, so the discussion of whether homosexuality is a sin does not even have a point as far as I'm concerned. However, completely aside from opinion, the "logic" used in this argument is totally absurd.
According to the argument, god first created Adam. Then he went through all the animals on earth, and none of them were a good mate. So god created Eve, therefore homosexuality is wrong. QED.
There's only one problem with that. There were no other men on earth throughout all this. Therefore god never, ever said "oh, well, you don't fit with this other dude, either." There was only one man on the planet, gay was not even an option for god to dismiss.
If you want to believe in god, fine with me. If you want to use religion to hate others, that's not fine with me, but I respect your right to think whatever you please. But if you're going to have opinions and make arguments, please think about whether they make sense now that you're not 17.
Hopefully this does not sound rude, but it upsets me when people just parrot things they're taught without thinking critically, and religion is a big source of that. It hurts society, like "just following orders."
I have issues with people claiming either "yes" or "no." Let's say you believe "no." Does that mean you get to have sex with whomever you want? Most of my male gay friends couldn't lead a monogamous relationship if God himself came down, slapped them in the face with a turkey, and said "dude, seriously? Knock it off." Maybe that's just the crowd I run around with. But if you sleep with everything that casts a shadow, whether you're gay or straight, you're still a slut. And I'm pretty sure the bible outlines God's feelings towards sluts. Also, if you believe having sex before marriage constitutes as a sin and you're still living in one of those states that doesn't allow same sex marriage...you can see how this could be a problem...
If you say "yes" to the whole "homosexuality is a sin" that's fine. You're entitled to your beliefs. But I have never seen Christians fail so wholly on the concept "love the sinner hate the sin" more than on the subject of homosexuality.
In short, yes, it's just your friends. I know several monogamous homosexuals, and I am an extremely monogamous bisexual (supposedly they don't exist, yet here I am!).
While it may be true that as a population, homosexuals are more promiscuous (and I will not concede that point without current data), that was not the question. The question is: "Is Homosexuality a Sin?" If I answer no, does that automatically mean that doing meth is not a sin, because some gay people do meth? Of course not. It's a different question entirely.
For what it's worth, I don't believe any of these things are sin, because I'm an atheist. Some things are just wrong. Being who you are is not one of them, unless who you are is a serial killer, etc.
I don't really believe it's just my friends. I would say around 90% of the gay men I have known (and I've lived down the street from San Fransisco, so it's not just a few) have had pretty open relationships. I'm trying very hard not to stereotype here, but it's hard not to when, adversely, all my lesbian friends have been pretty freaking monogamous. You're lucky, in a way, to be an atheist. I've had some good friends who've been steadfastly religious try to deal with their sexuality and it can get quite ugly and distressing for them. It's hard to deal with parents or family who aren't accepting of your choices, but harder still when you yourself have issues with who you are.
Apologies, looking back now that I'm not at work and in a hurry, I was not very clear. My point was, even your friends who are not 100% promiscuous. "All gays are slutty" is the only condition that would make your argument logically correct.
Sorry, I'm a huge nerd about logic. Let me back it up a bit.
The question asked by this page is "Is Homosexuality a Sin?" Your answer (according to my own humble interpretation) breaks down to:
"I don't know. I can't say no, because gays are slutty and god is not a big fan of that. Also, gays can't marry and god doesn't like premarital sex either.
If you say yes, I understand, but I cannot say yes myself because I don't like to hate."
That's actually a great, well-reasoned, and honest opinion. I wish more religious folks had that view. My point was just that the argument "A is wrong, most B are A, therefore B is wrong too" is not logically correct. What about non-slutty gays? They do exist, in fact 100% of the gay people in my close social circle are entirely monogamous. That's because atheist ethics are how I roll, and many friends are like-minded or similar. The point is, even if promiscuity is correlated to homosexuality, it's not the same thing, and god's condemnation of one does not automatically extend to the other.
As for marriage, the legal governmental form of marriage and the religious ceremony are not the same thing, and their endless confusion is a big problem in our country right now. Gays can get married in a church. Surely it's religious marriage, not civil marriage, that god required? Even if you only count legal marriage, if you believe that premarital sex is a sin, again that is not the same thing as homosexuality. The vast majority of heterosexuals also have premarital sex. Using this logic, being an American is a sin.
Our disagreement is a matter of perspective, you're coming from a common-sense point, and I'm coming from a logical view (which is what opposing view is all about for me). To use an analogy, suppose that giving birth were a sin. Does that make being a woman a sin? Most women have children, after all.
As for your comment about reconciling religion with ones lifestyle (which extends to a lot more situations than just homosexuality), amen to that! Personally, I suspect the antagonistic nature of homosexuality vs. religion in the US is probably a contributing factor as to why homosexuality is so often correlated with promiscuity. Of course, there are a lot of other factors correlated to promiscuity which are not, as far as I know, labeled sin.
Sorry if I sound antagonistic at all, when it comes to gay rights I just see red sometimes. I do appreciate how non-judgmental you are :)
Honestly, the reason I am uncommitted on this argument is because it isn't up to us to decide who the sinners are. And I while I believe whole-heartedly in the existence of God I'm willing to bet he's just about the most chill guy ever. I mean seriously, Jesus comes down, tries to get everyone to chill out and everyone just goes freaking nuts! Plus, if a true Christian reads the bible, they'll notice that God says "thou shalt not judge, dude" just about a million times. So who are we to point fingers at homosexuals and say "sinner"?
And you don't sound antagonistic - I understand about the seeing red thing. I hate hearing people talk about prop 8 because most people on either side of the argument just don't know what they're talking about. People refuse to see past what the media portrays (or what they're parents have raised them to believe) and so we have endless discussions of rhetoric and it makes me SO ANGRY.
Anyway, I think you and I may have had vastly different experiences when it comes to homosexuality. I have to say, most of my close gay friends come from religious backgrounds and they usually don't differ from my straight friends. So things like the gay parades in San Fransisco, marti gras, and flamboyant drag queens seem to me cliche, and I'm automatically biased against them because I think they do a huge disservice to the face of the gay community.
Those who turn to Leviticus and other passages to confirm preconcieved beliefs about homosexuality are only cherry picking--these same books say many other normal things are sins, from the sorts of clothes one wears to what you eat. Do those who find homosexuality sinful find the other things in these passages sinful as well? Or are they cherry picking?
I am not gay. I have nothing against gays. It is their life, not mine.
I am not religious. Why must I face this barrage over this book which I feel has no mandate in MY life? This is a collections of writings from a time when very few people could write. I find it no more binding than a collection of National Enquirer's from the 1950's.
When it comes to civil rights, the Bible should be left at home. Government and religion should not mix. Ever.
I respect your rights to have your faith. Please respect my absence of faith.
Where gayness and sin are concerned.... leave them alone. Don't they have enough to deal with? Can you imagine how difficult it is to be different and on top of that to be told that you are a "sinner"? How cruel can you be to do this?
No, it is not a sin. Show me where it is a "sin" without using your book. How can love be wrong? Honestly, I just don't get it.
Michelle
All the Scriptures below remind us that we have a sinful nature, and because of this sinful nature we have inclinations of different kinds. (This is why Dr. Dobson mentioned that in some cases people do not choose to feel same sex attraction) To have an inclination does not mean that we cannot use our God given free will/choice to choose what is right; our ability to reason is not in vain, it is because God, our Creator, did not want us to be like robots; He tells us through the Scriptures what is pure, noble and right, but it is up to us what we choose, or how we want to interpret His word to fit our sinful natures and try to silence our consciences. No matter how many want to justify sin, in the end, sin is sin, and each one will receive what is due according to his/her deeds.
*Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. Romans 8:5
*Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Romans 8:8
*Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. Romans 8:12
*For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Romans 8:13
*Therefore, God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lust. EVEN THEIR WOMEN EXCHANGED NATURAL RELATIONS FOR UNNATURAL ONES. IN THE SAME WAY MEN ALSO ABANDONED NATURAL RELATIONS WITH WOMEN AND WERE INFLAMED WITH LUST FOR ONE ANOTHER. MEN COMMITTED INDECENT ACTS WITH OTHER MEN, AND RECEIVED IN THEMSELVES THE DUE PENALTY FOR THEIR PERVERSION. ROMANS 1:24-27
*“If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:31-32
*But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Reina
I'm really starting to think that "Christians" such as yourself take the words of Paul to mean more than the words of Christ.
If you're a Christian... show me where Jesus - you know... the person whom you're supposed to be following - says that being gay is a sin. Tell me how you think Jesus would have reacted to a gay person sharing Christ's message. Tell me if you think Jesus would have treated a gay man or woman any differently than a leper, or a whore, or anyone else.
Hi SocialistBetty,
Thank you so much for your question. I do not think that Christ would have reacted in a negative way to a gay person sharing His message as long as this person does not act on his/her tendency—same sex attraction. All of us have tendencies and struggles; this is the reason why Christ died on the cross for us.
I believe that individuals are more than just their sexuality and no one should be defined and/or valued based only on a sexual tendency. What about their character, talents, interests, love for Christ and other people, etc., etc.
I want to share this article which explain what I would like to tell you.
Written by: Mike Ensley | March 6th, 2008
The answer that immediately comes to mind is, “Well, yeah!” We know God loves everybody, but then we’re confused when we see Bible verses that say homosexuality is a sin. What does that mean for gays?
Let’s ask ourselves: does God think the way we do? Not quite (Isaiah 55:9). So I wonder if God would even think of people as “gay” or “straight” in the first place?
Like the verse linked to above says, God’s ways are much higher than ours. You know, the Bible really never classifies people as “gay” or “homosexual” (even though some translations make it seem that way). The Scriptures only ever talk about homosexuality being a kind of behavior–not a kind of person.
So it’s more accurate to say that, rather than seeing people as “gay,” God just sees people–some of whom have same-sex attractions, and others who have different struggles. And He loves them all. The only question is whether we are willing to daily make an effort in faith to submit our ground-level ways to His heavenly ones .
No matter what your struggle looks like, though, it doesn’t have to dictate your identity, actions or destiny. A big part of starting this journey is learning to stop thinking the way the crowd thinks, to stop believing everything you’re told just because it’s popular opinion.
Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect. (Romans 12:2)
SocialistBetty, please let me know if you have any other questions and God bless you =0)
Reina
I'm so sorry for all the people who give up who they are for a FEW versus in a 2,000 year old, often translated book. There are some basic tennents that are good in the Bible. I live by those every day. I refuse to believe that love is wrong. I wonder how many times love is mentioned in the Bible? In my opinion, the only thing Exodus does is push those seeking their "help" into celibacy. What a waste of a perfectly natural life.
Making an argument based on the bible is is in no way persuasive.
If you really want to know, you can ask God yourself, and he will answer because he loves you.
Seek and ye shall find. Ask and it shall be answered. Knock and the door shall be opened to you.
First off I want to thank you for being faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ in the very difficult walk many people, including myself, who struggle with homosexuality face. As much you want to argue around the teaching of Scripture it is very clear that homosexuality IS mentioned and IS called sin. The good news is that, like all sinners, in Jesus Christ we have the hope of salvation. In Jesus Christ a new word is spoken, a word of freedom, a word of healing, a word of restoration, a word that calls us back to move forward, to become who we already are in the dreams and love of God. It is not a freedom that permits sin but rather frees us from it to be the people of God, the people of the church, followers of Christ, Christians. Thank God I have found this freedom. Leaving the crippling false identity of the "homosexual" has been a breath of fresh air as deep as the breath God put in me when he nit me together in my mother's womb. Know my identity is shaped in and under the Word and Lordship of Christ instead of my self-claimed identity lording over my faith and life.
Peace be upon you brother,
Spencer
Turning to the Bible as a guide to determine whether homosexual behavior is viewed as sin, there can be no denial that there are some ten or more biblical texts which clearly reference homosexual practices or behavior in one form or another in the combined Old and New testaments. Further, there also should be no denial that every one of these texts describes homosexuality in a negative light, as unacceptable to the people who believed they understood the mind and will of their God. People who lived across many centuries and cultures!
As Christians for whom "sola scriptura" is important, we believe we can go to the Bible for guidance and counsel. We have believed it is a reliable and inspired source for truth, assistance and direction. When we do, we find ourselves in the company of many who are engaged in an intense scrutiny of these ten scripture passages in the Old and New Testaments which focus on this issue. Both traditional biblical interpreters and so-called revisionist biblical interpreters have engaged in extensive analysis of these passages to find evidence, which supports their respective positions.
Unfortunately the scriptural debate about homosexuality often only focuses on these ten passages and their historical, cultural meanings. In doing so, it neglects the larger worldview which the Bible teaches about holiness, godliness, sin and self-discipline. It misses the forest for the trees. The debate has been often argued from the particular to the general. The Bible is much more than the sum of it’s parts. The Bible is the book of inspired writings which embodies a godly spirit or worldview because it embodies the Spirit of God.
In the Book of Leviticus (RSV) for instance, there are two passages which have received much attention: Leviticus 18:22 says, "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." The other is Leviticus 20:13 – "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them."
These prohibitions in Leviticus are representative passages concerning this issue. They are especially useful for grasping the biblical worldview of which these verses are specific examples. I contend that it is this biblical worldview from which we are able to best grasp an accurate perspective about same-sex attraction and sexual behavior. It is a biblical worldview which God asks His followers to adopt. It is His point-of-view which God asks us to adopt. He asks us to get the Spirit of his mind and heart.
Bible-believing Christians don’t live on the basis of one or two or twenty verses of scripture. We live within a worldview of principles, standards, morals, values and ideals which the Bible teaches from Genesis through Revelation. Taken as a whole, this worldview represents the mind and heart and will of a loving Father God.
This is obvious from the people who come for Sexual Orientation Resolution Therapy (SORT). No one has ever come into therapy saying, "Hey, you know what, I just read Leviticus 18:22 and I don’t want to be abominable anymore!" Everyone who has entered resolution therapy or come to our support group, and who has been successful at resolution does so because they understand the Bible generally and have grasped the heart of their Father God. They understand the Word cumulatively as a worldview in which same-sex sexual behavior is unacceptable to God. The biblically faithful SSA Christian client in therapy understands that in the biblical context, a God-view of homosexual behavior is sinful.
I'm genuinely astonished that people seriously:
1. think it is rational that a book written by human beings could actually represent the views of God, and reasonable to use the Bible as a literal supernatural rendering of right and wrong. All religious texts are an expression of human values, specifically those of the authors.
It is a noble endeavor to engage questions of morality. I think it is hubris if people aren't deeply troubled about using a book written by human beings as the basis for claims about God.
2. I'm also astonished by people who use the Bible as an expression of God's will so easily ignore the things that don't trouble them, like Paul's instruction that women should cover their heads in church (and keep their mouths shut, by the way), while being so certain that homosexuality is a sin and going to great lengths to shame, stereotype (in many cases, commit false witness against - intentionally, or, through their lack of education about these issues, unintentionally), and discriminate against gays and lesbians.
I pray for the day when it is no longer acceptable for people to deny responsibility for their beliefs or actions by saying "well, that's what the Bible says, that's what I was taught is true." We can and must do better than this for the sake of humanity.
Good points, Christine. I think people usually narrow their focus on only what affects them the most. It's a fact of human psychology that people most often condemn the things in themselves that they find most hard to accept. Most homophobic people are either fearful of some of the feelings of affection for the same gender, which upsets or confuses them, or they're closeted and can't face it. So they find whatever they can, wherever they can, to somehow counter the confusion. Literature like the Bible gives people ample material to quote in order to deal with their own problems. They are attacking what they dislike the most in themselves, and looking for the best ammunition they can find.
Of course, every time I say this to a homophobe, they get outraged and defensive...which is also explained in basic psychology texts. That's why you'll never win an argument with a religious fundamentalist about a subject like this...not until they accept themselves and their feelings. I have to admit that although I find their views offensive, I do feel sorry for the conflict that goes on inside them.
I had lesbian attractions for years before embarking on a series of lesbian relationships. I was out and I was proud. After coming to know Jesus, I read Romans and realized that I could not be a Christian and a lesbian. It wasn't God's intention for human sexuality and if I truly loved God, I would be obedient to His word. I didn't need a tortured interpretation of the Bible to convince me to follow my own proclivities. Instead, a common-sense, historically sound reading of the Bible convinced that God didn't need to change, I did. It was then that I began the journey of transformation and sanctification. Never have a I regretted and never have I looked back. I always enjoyed being a lesbian, but never did I have the joy and peace that I do now.
Praise the Lord!
Exodus International has put out a call to its membership to come here and support Jeff Buchanan's position that homosexuality is inherently sinful and that the Bible condemns it.
Sorry, but I can't support those concepts. Much of what I would like to say has already been covered in the excellent posts above, but I'd just like to add that the handful of Biblical passages which have been historically misused to condemn gay relationships have nothing to do with same-gendered persons engaging in loving, faithful and committed monogamous relation to one another. Rather, they have to do with heterosexual people (men, in all but one instance) engaging in practices such as adulterous behavior with another man in their own wife's bed; sexual intercourse and orgies with temple prostitutes in service of false gods; buying and selling of sexual slaves; males raping other males by way of showing conquest and domination.
These are most certainly vile and hideous practices. But they have nothing to do with homosexual persons engaging in committed, loving relationships. In a paraphrase of an unknown author, "These are not homosexuals behaving badly; they are heterosexuals behaving attrociously."
God does not condemn loving, committed, supportive partnerships which display and represent God's love for humanity. God condemns those who abuse and exploit and do harm to their fellow human beings, regardless of gender.
In both of these passages, Paul uses the Greek term arsenokoite in reference to male homosexuality. The conventional understanding has been that Paul is specifically addressing homosexuality within this passage.
The pro-gay theological stance is that Paul is extremely concerned about prostitution within I Corinthians 6 and is mainly referring to male prostitutes. This word is only used within I Corinthians and I Timothy but nowhere else in the literature of the period.(1) John Boswell states that there were other words for “homosexual” in the Greek language so there was little need to use this term.(2) Also the word arsenokoite is a term that Paul has created from the words arsenos (man) and koite (couch or bed) and is specific to him. Therefore, Paul is condemning sexual immorality in general and not referring to committed homosexual relationships.
While it is true that the term arsenokoite appears to be of Paul’s invention, the context in which it appears is not nullified because of Paul’s originality. In fact, Paul coined 179 words throughout the New Testament. The words arsenos and koiten are taken directly from the Holiness Code of the Septuagint.(3) Because arsen is Greek for “man” and koites means “bed”, the connotation of sexual activity is predominant. The Septuagint’s translation of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 places the words arsenos and koite in close proximity to each other and is suggested by Martii Nissinen that Paul is creating a neologism based upon the Septuagint.(4) These are the previously referred passages in which homosexual behavior is expressly forbidden. This further complicates the position that another meaning other than homosexuality is implied. In I Corinthians 5:1, Paul begins by addressing sexual matters with the general term porneia, ‘sexual immorality’. This is applied to a case of heterosexual immorality in verse 1 regarding a man’s stepmother. In the following verses there are initial references to porneia referencing heterosexual immorality followed by arsenokoitai which references the homosexual contrast.(5) In this context, one must consider the intent of arsenokoite in its perceived application to prostitution. Arsenos signifying ‘male’ is a clear emphasis on gender. Koite meaning ‘couch’ is listed only twice in the New Testament in a sexual connotation. There is nothing within these words that would implicate a trade or bartering.
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1 Rev. Elder Don Eastman, "Homosexuality: Not A Sin, Not A Sickness," Metropolitan Community Church, 1990, http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Sexuality_Spirituality&Template =/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=629#Part1/ (accessed August 5, 2007).
2 Joe Dallas, The Gay Gospel (Eugene: Harvest House Publishers, 2007), 209.
3 Joe Dallas, A Strong Delusion (Eugene: Harvest House, 1996), 198.
4 Gwen B. Sayler, "Beyond the Biblical Impasse: Homosexuality through the Lens of Theological Anthropology," A Journal of Theology 44, no. 1 (Spring 2005): 86.
5 Ed. L. Miller, "More Pauline references to homosexuality?," Evangelical Quarterly 77, no. 2 (2005): 130.
I notice that you like to draw from a lot of reference pertaining to psychologists, philosophers or, scholars and if taken from the Bible not in its true context.
1 Corinthians 1 vs. 20, 25
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
1 Corinthians 3 vs 18-20
Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise.
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.
Psalms 18 vs. 30
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the Lord is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
2 Corinthians Chapter 11 vs. 13-15
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Goodbye on this topic.
This is what Christ say about marriage relationships & sexual immorality.
Mark Chapter 10 vs. 6-9
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: So then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Romans 1 vs 25-32.
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. A-men. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, maliciousness; full of envy murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whispers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
This is how you know you belong to God.
I John 1 vs 8-10
If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts]. If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just ( true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [ dismiss our lawlessness] and [ continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]. If we say ( claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [ the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].
1John Chapter 2 vs.3-4
And this is how we may discern [daily, by experience] that we are coming to know Him [ to perceive, recognize, understand, and become better acquainted with Him]: if we keep (bear in mind, observe, practice His teachings (precepts, commandments).
Whoever says, I know Him [ I perceive, recognize, understand, and am acquainted with Him] but fails to keep and obey His commandments (teachings) is a liar, and the Truth [ of the Gospel] is not in him.
Let's examine what the companion passage to Mark 10, says, since Matthew 19 is the major passage used to clobber gay people on the topic of marriage.
Matthew 19:3-12 deals with God’s view of heterosexual marriage and natural exceptions to heterosexual marriage as Jesus intended His followers to understand them. Jesus says some eunuchs are born that way, from their mother's womb. Jesus does not say born eunuchs enter the world with genital deformities.
Instead, He makes a distinction between born eunuchs and eunuchs who have been physically castrated (suffered genital deformity) by illness or by men. Jesus also makes a clear distinction between born eunuchs and eunuchs who make a choice to voluntarily abstain from marriage, for the kingdom of heaven.
In Matthew 19, Jesus cites Adam and Eve as the norm for marriage but carefully makes exception for people called eunuchs. According to Jesus, a eunuch is one who cannot receive His teaching about heterosexual marriage according to the Adam and Eve model.
Jesus informs us that of the three classes of eunuchs, the first class is born that way. In other words, born eunuchs are not physically castrated and born eunuchs are not required to abstain from marriage with an orientation compatible partner.
They are born eunuchs from their mother’s womb, unable to receive Jesus’ teaching about the Adam and Eve marriage model yet Jesus differentiates between them and castrated eunuchs and them and metaphysical eunuchs (eunuchs who make a personal decision not to marry).
History demonstrates that what we call gay men today, were called eunuchs by our spiritual ancestors. In Matthew 19:12, Jesus very clearly says born eunuchs, what today we call homosexuals, were born that way.
In case you doubt that born eunuchs were gay people, please note that Dr. Robert Gagnon, the leading anti-gay crusader of the twenty-first century, admits that:
"Probably 'born eunuchs' in the ancient world did include people homosexually inclined..."
When even Dr. Robert Gagnon, our most vociferous opponent, admits this historical fact, our argument is largely won.
http://www.gaychristian101.com/Eunuchs-Are-Gay.html
The Bible says in Corinthians Chapter 6 vs 9-10.
"Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled) neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality.
Nor cheats ( swindlers and thieves,) nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners, and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God."
Corinthians Chapter 6 vs. 18
"Shun immorality and all sexual looseness (flee from impurity in thought, word, or deed). Any other sin which a man commits is one outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body."
The Bible is not out dated and it always confirms itself it is the greatest predicter of human behavior.
Everything that a scientist or philosopher may be a fact or an opinion may last for a moment but the truth stands forever. God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
If any who reads these words wants to continue to delude themselves or seer their conscience go ahead because you have been warned.
John 3 vs 16-17 says
"For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He (even) gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in ( trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish ( come to destruction be lost) but have eternal ( everlasting) life.
For God did not send the Son into the world in order to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him."
John 3 vs. 20
For every wrongdoer hates (loathes, detests) the Light, and will not come out into the Light but shrinks from it, lest his works ( his deeds, his activities, his conduct) be exposed and reproved.
Jesus is the way the truth and the life. He is also Light of the world.
Therefore, there is no such thing as a gay Christian that's an oxymoron.
Jesus is the way the truth and the life. He is also Light of the world.
Therefore, there is no such thing as a gay Christian that's an oxymoron.
Your right in that there is no such thing as a gay christian, there is only a christian. Jesus loves us for who we are, if we love him. It hurts Him if we swear, if we curse, if we sex out of marriage, if we murder , if we..... I could go on.
The thing is, He will always love us and forgive us. He will also lead us to walk a closer walk with Him. If a gay turns to Christ, Christ will lead him on his path. As fellow christians, it's not are job to condemn but to build up and love as Christ loves us.
If a prostitute with a habit handed their lives to Christ, I wouldn't expect them to stop earning a living in the only way they know how, even if it is sinning. They would need our support and understanding to help them move into a new and productive career over a period of time. They would also need to be taught (with love) the message of the bible and help to understand how to accept His unconditional forgiveness.
Why do you seem to have difficulty with showing His love to fellow christians on their path?
I believe that homosexuality is a sin. But it is impossible for us to determine who is a christian or not. There is a story that my pastor tells: "Two german missionaries weep on their beer glasses because they saw two fellow women american missionaries wearing jeans." For some drinking beer is a sin. For others women wearing pants are sinners.
I know homosexuality is not a cultural sin. But haven't God dealed with people that allow sins in their lives and still save them. The part of convincing them that is a sin lies on the Holy Spirit, not on us. But I agree church has the responsability to have a clear view of what is and what is not a sin.
Sorry, Tamara, but you can't judge whether someone is a Christian or not by whether they are gay or not. Just like I can't judge if someone is a Christian or not by whether or not they are fat. God said gluttony was a sin too, didn't He?
Sharone
People who are gluttons are not necessarily fat (e.g., bulimia) and people who are fat are not necessarily gluttons (e.g., transplant recipients, people who don't exercise, etc.)
η ουκ οιδατε οτι αδικοι βασιλειαν θεου ου κληρονομησουσιν μη πλανασθε ουτε πορνοι ουτε ειδωλολατραι ουτε μοιχοι ουτε μαλακοι [malakoi] ουτε αρσενοκοιται [arsenokoitai]- I Cor 6:9 in Greek, from the Textus Receptus.
The problem with saying arsenokoitai means homosexual is that, in ancient times, arsenokoitai was never used with our modern meaning of homosexual.
Conservative evangelical New Testament scholar, Dr. Gordon Fee (he's heterosexual) says that arsenokoitai is rarely used in Greek literature,
“especially when describing homosexual activity.”
The quote is from p. 244 of his commentary, The First Epistle To The Corinthians, Eerdmans, 1987, by Dr. Gordon D. Fee.
Dr. Fee still believes I Cor 6:9 refers to homosexual activity but he is honest enough to admit that his opinion is nothing more than "a best guess."
I am not willing to be silent when Christians attack gay or lesbian relationships with faulty "best guesses" while ignoring actual historical usage of arsenokoitai. When we factor in actual usage of the word, arsenokoitai, honesty compels the conclusion that arsenokoitai does not mean homosexual.
Some Christians admit that the word arsenokoitai was never used to mean homosexual. Then they insist that arsenokoites means homosexual anyway, since arseno means man and koite is a euphemism for sex. Their reasoning is that when the two parts are combined into one word, it must mean homosexual.
Famous British scholar, Dr. James Barr, (he was heterosexual) 1924-2006, was called by the Times Online obituary,
“probably the most significant Hebrew and Old Testament scholar in Britain in the twentieth century.”
Here is what Dr. Barr said about the etymology of words.
“The main point is that the etymology of a word is not a statement about its meaning but about its history...
...it is quite wrong to suppose that the etymology of a word is necessarily a guide either to its ‘proper’ meaning in a later period or to its actual meaning in that period.”
James Barr, The Semantics of Biblical Language, Oxford University Press, New York, 1961, p. 109.
The way arsenokoites was actually used in the ancient Greek language must be our guide as to its meaning. In ancient times, arsenokoitai was never used with our modern meaning of homosexual.
http://www.gaychristian101.com/Arsenokoites.html
Homosexuality or any sort of human sexual expression is a "sin" only in a narrowly-focused set of values. The real question to ask is, assuming you love your own individual life, would homosexual behavior on your part be a "sin", "immoral" or "unethical" according to your own set of values?
Nothing genuinely factual and no consistently logical argument thus far leads to the conclusion that homosexual behavior among human beings is objectively and universally sinful, immoral, unethical. The question must always be, what does the individual value? Why? According to what factual information? According to what reason?
The Judeo-Christian philosophies and religions have a long tradition, however, and despite the claims of their adherents, they have never and never will reflect anything resembling authentically objective and universal values. They therefore cannot speak in universal terms in relation to their own group value sets, nor can they rationally compel their values on non-members of their respective groups.
Whatever rights one has derives from the fact of one's own life and from nowhere else. Your own right to your life cannot be factually and logically extended to justify any "right to the life of another". Due to circumstances, one may be a liberty to compel the life of another, however, one cannot have the right to do so. No such right exists. One's own values must reign supreme in one's own life - even if those values are in some way borrowed from the values of others, however, one's own values, again, cannot be factually and logically extended to become the involuntary values of another.
That homosexuality is universally a "sin" in the narrow view of Judeo-Christian-Muslim beliefs is debated even among members of those philosophies. Those beliefs, those values are not universal and cannot be argued as such. Yes, homosexuality is a sin ... to some. No, it isn't to others. If there is an ethical struggle on the issue, it is this - does one individual have any right to compel their values onto another, whether they be in support or against human homosexual behavior?
Facts and logic suggest the answer to that is - no.
We need to also remember a couple of important things about passages from any Bible. First, even if they WERE Divinely inspired, they've been translated many times over thousands of years. So you have mistakes, misinterpretations, and even the infusion of personal opinion.
Think about this...1000 years from now if someone attempts to translate an English document, they may not realize that the words "man," "men," and even "mankind" have traditionally referred to all human beings regardless of gender. Think about the misinterpretations that would create in translation.
Second, and this is important... the Bible was written during times when human beings weren't as enlightened and educated as they are now. People didn't understand the underlying psychology and science of metaphysics. So Bibles were written to cater to those more ignorant times. They are full of allegories and simplistic rules and laws in order to control behavior during times when reason wasn't as evolved.
So anyone who still views these simplistic and modified writings as the ultimate law of human behavior, is still living in ignorance.
Two more comments:
1. If someone is going to quote the Bible as a guide to behavior, then they need to take heed of the entire teachings of the Bible, including the admonishment to NOT JUDGE others. If you're going to quote the Bible, you lose all credibility if you pass judgement on another person....you're immediately refuting yourself and you look ignorant and foolish. If you truly understand and adopt the teachings as a GUIDE to living, then you will never utter a word against another human being, but instead take care to treat others with compassion and respect. Those of you who quote portions of the Bible out of context of the entire missive (if you believe it to be such) are showing ignorance.
2. Any credible psychologist knows that people often speak up against and condemn things that they don't like within themselves. Almost all homophobic opinions and behavior stem from the speaker's difficulty accepting those feelings within themselves. Homophobic behavior simply reveals a lack of adjustment to homosexual inclinations.
Quoting the passage that we can not judge is taking a text out of context. The Bible states that in order to judge you have to take the speck from your eye in order to judge correctly. And does not Paul state in his letter to corinthians: "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?"
I know many people that has changed his homosexual behaviour. Maybe they continue struggling with the attractions, but their acts state they want to change. Another one may be tempted to use drugs or abuse of alcohol. But if he doesn't use them, can we say he is an addict of a drunk? The same is for people with unwanted homosexual desires which live a heterosexual life. Encouraging those who live a homosexual lifestyle doesn't help them.
This is another example of misinterpreting the scriptures. The "speck in the eye" is an allegorical reference to the fact that no human being is without fault, therefore not qualified to pass judgements. All human beings have specks in their eyes.
And since when is a saint considered to be a normal human being?
This forum is about homosexuality being a sin. If a homosexual cannot accept his or her feelings and wishes to suppress and ignore them, that is their choice. But that does not make it a sin. JUDGING homosexuality is a sin.
Also, comparing homosexuality to drugs or alcohol is ignorant. It's like comparing a fish to a bicycle.
Again, I point out that using the Bible as the basis for a viewpoint like this is unsound reasoning. It is an allegorical piece of literature, a text translated many times, colored by personal opinion, open to countless interpretations of the same passages depending on a person's viewpoint, and not shared by all humankind. Those who view homosexuality as a sin simply have no concrete basis for their viewpoint. In fact, the most enlightened spiritual teachings refute the concept of "sin" as presented by the christians.
The list provided in this argument is quite blatantly padded, as the Genesis and Judges passages do not even approach the issue of homosexuality. Shame on you.
Taken from the Bible Romans 1 vs.26-31.
"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
The Bible said it not my words.
Because of their blindness to God, He gave them over to shameful lusts. He gave them over to sin and sin they did, and in every way possible. Yes your right, it is a sin, but should we try and stop them doing it or should we be leading them out of sin by sharing our faith?
My pastor has a saying "They know what were against, but not what were for!"
Brian Greenaway was an Hell's Angel. He murdered, beat people up for fun, slept around and many other things, without caring about the sins he was doing. One day he turned to Christ with the help of caring christians. Is he more deserving then gays?
You can say "It says in the bible " that they are wrong, or you can support them and lead them to Christ and let them discover for themselves that they need turn their hearts around.
I'd like to add . I know a pair of male christians who love each other and live together, but they claim that they have been celibate since believing. I cannot know if they ever backslide, but who can say that they never slip back to their old ways once in a while.
Would you condemn them for still living together? All I know is that their faith is shown in their lives and that is all I care about as I know that I could have a long list of faults that I should look at in my life.