Should Loaded and Concealed Guns be Allowed in National Parks?
On May 20, 2009, Congress overwhelmingly voted to allow loaded and concealed weapons into national parks, reversing a Reagan-era rule that allowed registered gun owners to carry only non-concealed, unloaded weapons. While gun rights groups have hailed the decision many gun prevention activists say that national parks just got more dangerous. Should loaded and concealed weapons be allowed in America's parks?








We Shouldn't Sacrifice Our 2nd Amendment Rights in National Parks
- From Gun Owners of America
By Gun Owners of America - A No-Compromise Gun Rights Organization
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Wrong question
The question itself is biased. The proper question is whether law -abiding citizens should be forced to disarm whenever they are going into National Park Service controlled property. Or "Should the ban on lawful firearms in National Parks be repealed?" Asking whether guns should be allowed in National Parks puts the burden of proof on gunowners when it rightly belongs on those who wish to continue forcing us to disarm. Criminals are going to ignore the policy and continue to do what criminals do. Only law-abiding citizens try to obey this silly ban. The ban is patently unconstitutional and is actually in conflict with federal law. It's way past time for the ban to go away. Guns are not banned in National Forests and there isn't a problem with people legally carrying guns causing problems on those lands so why is it assumed that people will be less responsible in National Parks?
- JeffKnox
June 14, 2009 7:49PM
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DING DING DING
We have a winner folks! Jeff hit the nail on the head. Law-abiding citizens are just that. It's the thugs and scum that you have to worry about. Not the legally armed citizens of our country. Wake up people. You're not going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals by taking them out of mine. Just like you haven't kept drugs off the streets of America.
Narcotics are absolutely illegal to use without a doctor's prescription, everywhere, all the time. And what effect have laws against them had? None. So what makes you think that guns will be any different? The answer: ignorance. Actually, I don't even believe that is true. Deep down you know it's true, but you refuse to acknowledge it. Well, it's time to do so America. The 2nd Amendment is not going away, and neither are the legally armed citizens of this country.
Let's put a little more emphasis on putting criminals behind bars and keeping them there and little less on criminalizing legal behavior.
- LagerHead
June 16, 2009 11:37AM
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One better...
"And what effect have laws against them had? None."
Actually in support of your point drug law makes the problem worse all around.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=portugal-drug-decriminalization
But like the gun control fans, pro drug war types are immune to reason.
"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." - Max Planck
- Innomen
June 17, 2009 2:06PM
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On the fence
You make a good point, but I can't say I totally agree with it. I can see both sides of this argument. The problem I see is that addicts will still engage in illegal behavior to obtain their drugs. On the other hand, they're only that expensive because they're illegal. On the other hand, Portugal still made it illegal to sell, so the prices won't necessarily drop because there is still risk in selling them.
I personally have never partaken in the use of illegal drugs, and I am against them because of what they do to people's lives, and more importantly, what they do to the lives of their families, especially children . But if you want to engage in self-destructive behavior and ruin your own life, that just makes more room for the rest of us. Of course, then we will end up paying to fix your screwed up life in the form of higher taxes . Because you know once the government advocates drug use , they will be responsible for treating you as a result of your inability to control your own life.
- LagerHead
June 22, 2009 2:32PM
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Nope.
"The problem I see is that addicts will still engage in illegal behavior to obtain their drugs. "
The data just doesn't support that claim. With possession being legal proving sale becomes next to impossible. And with all the obvious benefits Portugal is experiencing I'd say the priority on the enforcement of anti sales law is diminished except in the highest of traffickers, and I assure you this will reflect in the street price.
There is just no objective view of the cessation of prohibition which can be called negative, just like the gun law issue. The only people that say otherwise are the ignorant and the vested.. It truly is that simple given current circumstances..
Addicts often commit crime because they are barred access to the job market. In America you virtually can't get a non wage slavery job without peeing in a cup. In a community where drug possession and therefor use is legal, drug testing should go down, and as it does the entry of functional addicts into the market will occur. Opening the door to a whole class of workers who spend their money on heroin instead of WoW and still show up to work on time.
The drug market is a truly free market, and as such it reacts with lightning speed.
"I am against them because of what they do to people's lives"
Drugs themselves actually do very little harm, especially compared to things like HFCS, fat, or cars .
It's drug policy that destroys lives. The drug problem is a healthcare issue, not a law enforcement one. It's like trying to arrest and jail cancer .
The drug war makes it impossible to get treatment, it forces addicts to live off grid, creating a self fulfilling prophecy. Of course addicts steal, once they are an addict we won't let them work!
It creates a criminal enterprise that results in the utter destruction of communities. It's also hypocritical. We are a drug saturated society . The pharmaceutical industry is the most profitable one in America. This duplicity causes a fundamental distrust and hatred of the government who's cost alone cannot be calculated. And again, self fulling prophecy, when they in turn show a total lack of respect for authority we say the drugs did it, when in fact WE did it.
Heroin used to be sold over the counter, some estimates place functional addiction in America almost to the one third mark at it's peak. Society's chief problem at the time? The stock market. Not street crime, not an army of addicted zombies living off government and outs, but upper class suits making margin calls and leading us into a depression on completely false claims.
All the other drugs are a function of the drug war as well to one degree or another, as dealers sought to increase their profit per pound/gram/ton and set about refining their drugs. Meth as a street drug is a synthetic substitute for coca plain and simple. It exists almost solely because it can be produced in street labs.
"they will be responsible for treating you as a result of your inability to control your own life. "
Nothing could be further from the truth. Look how well the government handles the poverty and homelessness epidemics. Not to mention mental health care which is related to both. The number of homeless people who are mentally ill is staggering.
America has a long history of ignoring those in need, why should addicts be any different?
This image of the nanny state is largely a myth perpetrated by the right in order to preserve their own ill gotten gains. By every objective relative measure the funding spent by the United States on aid to it's own citizens is abysmally small. If one were to judge our compassion based on those figures one would conclude we are a society with the moral fortitude of Ted Bundy.
It is a classic example of swallow an elephant choke on a gnat. The drug war directly costs nearly 2000$ per second. A typical food stamp card costs 134$ a month. The myth of the nanny state is smoke and mirrors. The typical upper class American could not survive without the state regulating their business competition out of existence, and subsidizing their failures. (AIG anyone?)
And on a purely practical note no policy change is painless. The art of state craft is the trade of 2 units of pain for 1 unit of pain.
Given the untold billions in direct and indirect savings coupled with the increased productivity unquestionably associated with the termination of the drug war, the problems you describe even if they themselves were taken completely without argument would be a paltry annoyance compared to the utter human catastrophe drug policy is in America today.
Indeed I believe the gains would be so excessive that they would in turn pay for any sort of short comings.
But really do NOT trust me, go look into it. There are mountains of studies on each subject.
I hope this was food for thought :)
- Innomen
June 22, 2009 4:11PM
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Still on the fence, but a couple of counterpoints
"Addicts often commit crime because they are barred access to the job market."
I don't see how this will change. You can be denied access to the job market for reasons other than illegal activity. For example, my last 5 or 6 jobs required a credit check. So while it's not illegal to have bad credit or file for bankruptcy , I could have been denied a job based on it. I certainly would not hire someone who tested positive for heroin, or even marijuana . Plain and simple, drug use is a poor decision, and I don't want people working for me who have poor decision making abilities.
"It's drug policy that destroys lives. The drug problem is a healthcare issue, not a law enforcement one. It's like trying to arrest and jail cancer . "
Come on, that's a stretch. I have a cousin who is married to a guy who takes meth. Paranoia is a well known side effect of meth use. Because of his paranoia, a recent family reunion was interrupted, or some might say ruined, because of his repeated calls, day and night, to check up on her. He called her phone, two of my aunts' phones, and her mother's phone. This not only stressed her out, it caused her children to be visibly depressed, leaving them in tears, and caused her mother, to become near hysterical. So are you really going to insist that drug use is a victimless crime? I don't think you'd find very many reputable sources that would say that.
"Heroin used to be sold over the counter, some estimates place functional addiction in America almost to the one third mark at it's peak. Society's chief problem at the time? The stock market." What time was this, and what evidence supports it? I mean, one third seems like an awfully high number. Alcohol is perfectly legal now, and so are cigarettes . But combined the percent of people addicted to these two substances doesn't equal 1/3. I couldn't find alcohol addiction alone, but best estimates for cigarettes, drugs, and alcohol combined is about 73 million people in the U.S., or about 20%. And " society 's chief problem" is a subjective statement, and therefore pretty difficult to quantify.
"The number of homeless people who are mentally ill is staggering."
Again, a subjective statement, but only about 1% of Americans are homeless for an extended period of time, with about 40-45% of those being considered mentally ill. While that number is sad, I'd be hard pressed to call it staggering.
"This image of the nanny state is largely a myth perpetrated by the right in order to preserve their own ill gotten gains."
Again, can you quantify this statement? And I'm a conservative. How exactly are my gains "ill gotten." I have worked my tail off just to reach middle class, and I have done it without infringing on the rights or walking on anyone to get where I am. And I have lived well below the poverty line, and it was nobody's fault but mine. And don't forget that there are plenty of people on the left who are obscenely wealthy. Are their gains ill gotten? That statement reeks of elitism and is a disgusting generalization, in my opinion.
"The typical upper class American could not survive without the state regulating their business competition out of existence, and subsidizing their failures. (AIG anyone?)"
While I am certainly not a part of the group to which you point in this statement, I think you are vilifying unjustly an entire group of people. If you had used a racial segment of the population, this would be called racism . Depending on what you call "upper class" I don't think that statement would hold water either. And I won't even begin to debate what the cause of the financial market collapse was, so don't waste your time trying to bait me into that one. ;-)
Oh, and I forgot this one: "Opening the door to a whole class of workers who spend their money on heroin instead of WoW and still show up to work on time."
Seriously? Really? You honestly think that a heroin addict would show up to work on time? Really? I mean that statement damn near leaves me speechless. If anything I said was questionable, that statement is outright pot-of-gold-at-the-end-of-the-rainbow fantasy. I seriously hope you didn't type that with a straight face.
Again, I'm still on the fence, and that was food for thought, but much of what you said is subjective at best, and pure opinion at worst. Like I said before, if you want to destroy your life, go right ahead. Just don't drag me, or any other innocent person down with you.
- LagerHead
June 22, 2009 5:39PM
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I have nothing to add.
You've made no arguments. You've simply restated your previous opinions. Your logic is spurious and you evidence anecdotal. You are hip deep in self serving Horatio Alger mythology designed expressly to absolve you of the responsibility of helping your fellow man.
May I suggest you start with "A People's History of the United States." by Howard Zinn
Besides a drug war debate with you in the comments on a gun issue is pointless as you won't be convinced, and very few people interested will see it.
Like I said, you shouldn't trust me, go read the relevant studies and history. I know you won't even look you'll just pat yourself on the head and type some more Ad Hominem.
Your snide and insulting incredulity at what I know are established well documented facts of history says it all. I will no longer be responding to you, or anyone else on the subject of drug law in this thread, we've gone too far off topic already. After decades on the Internet, I know an intractable zealot when I see one.
I'm glad you enjoyed writing that post, and if you choose to take the last word and make an argument to which I will not respond I hope you enjoy that as well.
- Innomen
June 22, 2009 7:11PM
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Wrong
I too have rights. Among them is the right to be on the peopls' parklands without armed morons who have genital issues acting out John Wayne fantasies. When Jeff Knox reaches, say, age eleven, we should give him space for his opinions. Meanwhile, by the same logic, Jeff, do you and every other child have the constitutional right to carry guns into a kindergarten class? How about a court room? What about an army base in Texas? What about an airplane ? So, the Founding Fathers gave you the right to carry a gun on an airplane? Next you are going to tell us you have the right to carry a stinger missile on an airport runway.
- ghostdog22
January 3, 2010 10:48PM
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Wow! Stunning Analysis!
I am simply bowled over by your mature and rational response to my childish rant.
I mean, who can argue with Stinger missiles on a runway?
- JeffKnox
January 4, 2010 1:02AM
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Brilliant!
Why is it that anti-gun pansies who fear inanimate objects always result to penis references and cowboys? Must be some kind of fetish with which I am not aware.
But enough about that. Let's get back to reality. Ghostdog, since you're so in touch with the reality of the situation, maybe you can explain why when you go into a McDonalds in St. Louis, or a gas station in Des Moines you don't see those same things? I mean, national parks don't hold some evil magical quality that makes one lose their senses as soon as they enter do they? If it's not happening everywhere else every day, why would a national park be any different?
And if you can't point out why it would be any different - and you can't - why is it even an issue? Unless you live in one of the criminal havens that deny citizens the right to defend themselves with force equal to or greater than what a criminal will use, you have undoubtedly stood next to a gun owner and carrier without you even knowing. Several times. Probably hundreds. Unless you have been shot hundreds of times, what exactly makes you think you are going to get any different response in national parks?
As to your other questions: yes, you should be able to carry in all those places. "Gun free zones" are the most oxymoronically (real word?) named places in the country. All mass shooting sprees take place in "gun free zones." Coincidence? Sure it is.
"Next you are going to tell us you have the right to carry a stinger missile on an airport runway. "
You don't have a right to own a stinger missile or be on the runway in the first place, but thanks for keepin' it real, bro.
- LagerHead
January 6, 2010 3:59PM
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Please stay on topic!
The topic that should have been addressed here was Should Guns be Allowed in National Parks! From the comments I read posted for most of the past week, the discussion has gotten way off the topic, and into a whole different thread for debate.
As for the concept of guns being carried in National Parks, it should be a non-issue. For starters if you take the 2nd amendment approach, what part of "the rights of the people shall not be infringed" do you fail to understand. Next, States are the authority that regulate the rules for Concealed Carry permit holders, and should apply to all areas not specifically prohibited by each state. If a National Park is in a state that allows concealed carry then it should include the parks as well. Aside from the obvious, concealed carry is legal in a growing number of states, so for those "afraid" of coming into contact with or being exposed to a gun, you already are on a daily basis in about 40 + states the last time I checked.
I personally carry during majority of my waking hours, both in my own home and in public, with the exception of when at work or church . In my county, in Michigan, the last statistic I heard was the average for LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS with permits to carry concealed is about one in twelve. I follow the rules, but I also challenge bad laws and rules when they are clearly violating my rights, my safety, and conflict with the Constitution Of the United States of America! I still happen to think that is the way our country should conduct it's affairs. Remember, it's only been about the last 60-100 years that people have given up open carrying in most places, and many states including mine, still LEGALLY allow it. I will still carry a gun either openly or concealed depending on the circumstances and location, if for no other reason than I still can, and in my opinion a right not exercised is a right lost by default! The narrow minded individuals who wish to restrict or take away my rights, will have to do so when they pry the guns "From my cold dead hands!", even if that has become less socially acceptable and not politically correct.
- ursamajor2004
June 25, 2009 8:45AM
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Concealed carry permits
Although the gun rights lobby narrowly lost this one in Congress I think the Full Faith and Credit Clause should apply to concealed carry permits.
- mike1948
August 1, 2009 2:44PM
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Why not in church?..
I understand that you don't carry at work [most employers will fire any-
one who brings weapons on premises] but you aren't employed by your
church ...The recent idiot who shot and killed several persons in his
church cud have been stopped by another armed person...The mass shootings in restaurants are in the same situation--nobody can defend
the people therein, if their heat is out in their car..Sit in the back of the church where you can watch the main entry...
Aaron Allen..
- Aaron
August 15, 2009 9:44PM
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RE: Why not in church?
Thanks for the observation, and comment. This is somewhat off the topic of National Park carry, but related to carrying for self-defense in general.
Actually since I wrote "Please stay on topic!" back in June, I have talked to the pastor of the church I attend, and got permission from the church board to carry while in services. I felt the worst that could happen was they would say no, in which case I would continue to keep things as it was. They were initially suprised because I asked, but were very supportive of the idea after we talked about my reasoning and intent. They were glad to have someone step up and ask, who would be willing to protect those, who would not, or could not defend themselves. I do not encourage violence, and I do not look for trouble, but I am cautious and prepared to deal with problems if they occur. They understood my concern that over the increased attacks on people in "gun free zones" AKA: Victim Preserves in the last couple years. I even took a couple of gentlemen to the shooting range to assure them that I am proficient with my sidearm, and to encourage them to consider having other regular members to carry in church. As I explained to them, I carry almost all the time, because you never know when you might need to protect yourself and others. It's kind of like having a spare tire and insurance for your car, you hope you never need to use it, but your sure glad to have it when it's needed. After years in the field working with unstable violent juveniles, I am conditioned to act, and not freeze like many people do.
I work in a Juvenile detention center, so for obvious reasons I would not even consider carrying at work. I do however keep my self-defense firearm locked in a small pistol safe mounted in my trunk now, for the trip to and from, as we have had periodic threats toward the facility and staff by former residents and some of their gang-banger buddies. I believe that has actually helped me better prepare to face challenges and act in a crisis situation.
- ursamajor2004
August 15, 2009 11:40PM
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I commend you for your responsible attitude...
Ursamajor: Thank you for your last post--I commend you for your respons-
ible attitude reference carrying and for caring about others you may be
gathered with...If badguys outside your work facility cud be a danger,
cudn't your agency place weapons lockers inside your JDC [like adult
jails] so you can secure your firearm as you enter and retrieve it upon
departure? I presume the center has a secure doorway into the interior.
Perhaps your superiors will consider adopting this?..Aaron Allen..
- Aaron
August 16, 2009 11:20AM
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Securing Firearms in Workplace
I do truly wish that was possible! Unfortunately I am surrounded by brain dead hoplophobes at work. Of the 60-70 staff in the facility, and about 20 of whom actually have contact with the youths, there are only about 5 of us willing to acknowledge that we even carry for self defense. So far as I know, I am the only one who willingly challenges the company policy about no weapons on the property, and that is essentially based on the assumption that the contents of my vehicle are my private property, and exempt from company control. Yes, we have locked boxes in our secure entry area, but I have been personally told by our administrator those may only be used by LEO's in case of emergency, since even they are prohibited from weapons anywhere in the building. I actually challenged the company policy on the basis that if they prevented the staff from protecting themselves, they should provide security in our parking lot. This has gone unanswered, and no change in the policy has occurred in the past ten years. I am not in a position where I can financially afford to take the matter to court to change this company policy, or I would have by now. I am hoping Michigan, will pass a parking lot law such as have been brought up in other states. Until then I'll operate on the basis of "better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six".
- ursamajor2004
August 17, 2009 11:20AM
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The parkinglot agreement...
UrsrMajor: Thank you for your explanation of the arms lockers at your
place of employment. A few years ago I wrote to NRA and proposed a pos-
sible answer to the problem faced by law and company rules-abiding em-
ployees who need to keep arms in their private vehicles when at work be-
cause they hunt or proficiency-shoot before or after work and [due to
distance] cannot 'double back' to drop or pick up their arms at home...
Understadably, most managements have a 'no weapons on company property'
rule as they fear a disturbed employee may report to work and shoot the
other people there. My idea was to offer employees an 'agreement' in
which they wud:
1. Apply for and agree with the rules regarding arms-in-parking lot.
2. Never remove a locked-up arm from their vehicle, carry it into any
building onsite, or 'show it to others' [prospective buyers, etc.]
3. Park in a reserved part of the lot that is lit up and watched by se-
curity CCTV cameras [to protect the vehicles from break-in as
well as any sign of agreement-violation. The employee shud al-
ways park there [closer to bldgs?] whether they happen to have
their arms aboard--or not. No one need know and it shudn't be an
issue...
4. Any violation of the agreement wud result it loss of the agreement
up to termination...
I hoped that such an agreement wud satisfy the arm-owning employees
and nervous management. Also, I felt [and still believe] that this lot
rule wud be something all cud accept. Want to go hunting , shooting , or
to show an arm to a fellow employee who is interested in buying it? Go
offsite after work to a lawful place [range, gunshop, private property,
etc.] and shoot/demo your arms properly...Aaron Allen..
- Aaron
August 17, 2009 2:07PM
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