Once a distant, mysterious land, the U.S. has become intensely embroiled in Middle Eastern politics. While simultaneously waging campaigns in both Afghanistan and Iraq, America has turned a wary eye to Iran and its alleged nuclear weapons. With the lives of potentially thousands of soldiers and citizens at stake in both countries, should the U.S. take direct military action against Iran?
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We Should Do It For the Right Reasons
- From Ayn Rand Center for Individual Rights
By Ayn Rand Center for Individual Rights - Advancing Objectivism
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What ?
I don't understand how an organisation that has as its stated goals "... promote the principles of reason, rational self-interest, individual rights and ... " can argue that to launch an aggressive war against a country that has not attacked the US.
Almost all of the cases you cite in support of you arguments are attacks against US military in places where they shouldn't be.
If you look at this from a different perspective. The US invaded Iraq. Over the years resistance to the US military presences has grown. When you are in that situation you will welcome help fro m the devil himself.
- Andrew Holt
September 1, 2008 1:17AM
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A Proxy War Is Still A War
Iran has been funding and supporting numerous terrorists such as Hezbollah and Al Qaida for years, using them to give arms and training to insurgents who then cross the border into Iraq to kill American soldiers -- or, indeed, fly airplanes into our skyscrapers.
A war by proxy is still a war, despite the lack of official paperwork. Iran declared war on us years ago, and we must defend ourselves now, because next time it will not be a jet airplane that they attack us with.
It will be a nuclear bomb.
- Sarrisan
September 4, 2008 8:32AM
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OK, but ...
The US cannot occupy the moral high ground here.
Are you suggesting that the Soviet Union would have been justified in attacking the US when the CIA were arming & funding the Mujahideen ?
Or that the UK should have attacked the US when individuals were funding the IRA ?
Or that almost any central & south american nation would also have similar cause ?
Iran is a potential target because it's safe. There will be no ICBM's arcing towards US soil. I notice that the heat has gone out of the rhetoric aimed at North Korea. Concern about Chinese involvement perhaps ?
Here's a mad idea. Why do you think Iran wants nuclear weapons ? Because it fears that it's only defences against the West will be to have the ability to kill lot's of US soldiers. Try talking, bargaining, make use of the rational self-interest.
BTW
"From 1945 to 2003, the United States attempted to overthrow more than 40 foreign governments, and to crush more than 30 populist-nationalist movements fighting against intolerable regimes. In the process, the US bombed some 25 countries, caused the end of life for several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair."
William Blum
- Andrew Holt
September 4, 2008 9:04AM
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Moral Equivocation
How can you equate the Soviet Union with the United States? The Soviet Union was a slave state fighting to bring even more people under it's oppressive regime, it had no rights and no justification for even existing. Likewise Iran has no right to oppress its citizens and wage Jihad on its neighbors and the US. It has no right to exist let alone have nuclear weapons. The United States for all its faults still stands for individual rights and freedom, that's why people come here in droves, including Muslims who have more rights here than anywhere in the Middle East. Such countries are an objective threat and any free country has a right to do what ever necessary to neutralize that threat. I don't believe Iraq was such a threat, Iran most certainly is, they have slaughtered hundred if not thousands of Americans. What would they do with a nuke?
- Nigel
October 29, 2008 6:45PM
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Hypocrisy
"How can you equate the Soviet Union with the United States?"
I don't. I question the right of any nation to say that any other has no right to exist. The US is quick to say that Israel has a 'right' to exist.
Hypocrisy is the issue. The US says one thing and does another.
Can you give examples of Iran attacking the US ? There are several examples of the US attacking Iran.
You talk much of rights, by what 'right' does the US seek to impose it's model of democracy upon a nation, other than force of arms ?
The US is building an empire. It can impose it will either by using its military muscle, or by, effectively, blockading a country.
You have no right to impose your way on another, if you try they have the right to resist. Is that not how the US came to exist in the first place ?
- Andrew Holt
October 30, 2008 4:38AM
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Freedom and Slavery are Different
So the Soviet Union (or Iran, or Taliban Afghanistan, or Nazi Germany) and the US are morally equivalent, neither is better than the other? That's just nihilism.
America is not a democracy, it's a constitutional republic based on the inalienable individual rights to life, liberty and happiness. Iran is a theocratic dictatorship where citizens have no rights. The difference is between freedom and slavery, life and death, that's what gives us the right. America has every right to protect the right of its citizens from the threats of illegitimate, totalitarian states such as Iran. Iran enslaves and slaughters its own citizens, it recognizes no rights; how absurd it is to claim it has the right not to be interfered with. The only empire being built is the one the Jihadists are building, they're the ones imposing an ideology and way of life on everybody. In the US and the West in general you can be whatever religion you want to be, and do whatever you want if you respect the same rights of others. To grasp this obvious difference I suggest you try being a Christian, or a Jew, or a secularist, or a woman, or a homosexual, or anything other than a good Islamic fundamentalist, in Iran.
Iran has been attacking the US since the invasion of our embassy in 1979.
1979 - US Embassy invaded and hostages seized [students sanctioned by Khomeni]
1983 - U.S. Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon. Sixty-three people were killed, including 17 Americans [Hezbollah]
1983 - American embassy in Kuwait was bombed. 5 people were killed, and more than 80 others were injured. [Al Dawa]
1982-92 - assorted kidnappings in Lebanon, totally 30 Westerners from '82-92 [Hezbollah]
1984 - truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. Embassy annex killing 24 people, two of whom were U.S. military personnel. [Hezbollah]
1984 - Kuwait Airways Flight 221, the hijackers killed two American officials from the U.S. Agency for International Development. [Hezbollah]
1985 - TWA Flight 847 was hijacked, hostage Robert Dean Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, was shot and his body dumped on the airport tarmac. U.S. [Hezbollah]
That's just 6 years and it just gets worse, do I have to go on? According to the FBI (reporting prior to 9/11), Iranian-backed Hezbollah was responsible for the slaughter of more Americans than any other group.
It's important to note that Iran's spreading of totalitarian Islam, and its involvement and success at sponsoring terrorism is what inspires and motivates Bin Laden and other terrorist organizations, and has made them think they can kidnap and murder Americans with impunity. If we had taken Iran at it's word and eliminated their terrorist state back in 1979 or even the early 1980s, in my opinion the resurgence of terrorism and 9/11 would never have happened. It's thanks to the non-military "solution" i.e. appeasement, that today terrorist groups operate all around the world (including a Hezbollah cell in my state in the US), raising funds and raising future "martyrs" who will probably make 9/11 look like child's play.
- Nigel
October 30, 2008 10:11AM
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more hypocrisy
OK How about:
Iraq:
1963: CIA organises coup that killed president, brings Ba'ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.
Iran:
1951 Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh was elected prime minister.
1953 President Dwight D. Eisenhower authorised Operation Ajax. The operation was successful, and Mossadegh was arrested on 19 August 1953, With American support, the Shah was able to rapidly modernise Iranian infrastructure, but he simultaneously crushed all forms of political opposition.
Lebanon
1958: In that intervention, 14,000 Americans were sent to Lebanon by President Dwight D. Eisenhower to quell the opposition to President Camille Chamoun.
1981, Israeli air craft bombed multi-story apartment buildings in Beirut
1982: Israeli siege of Beirut
1982 Invasion of Lebanon by Israel
Others:
Cuba 1961 Attempted invasion and regime change in Cuba.
1962-present ongoing trade restrictions
Laos 1962 Invasion of neutral country
Dominican Republic 1965-66 Marines land during election campaign.
Guatemala 1966-67 Green Berets intervene against rebels.
Cambodia: 1969-75 Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
Oman: 1970 U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
Chile: 1973 CIA-backed coup ousts elected Marxist president.
... and so on ...
I have no sympathy with religion, Islam or otherwise. I have worked with the Saudi's, the government there is despicable.
My point is that you cannot credibly moralise about democracy whilst destabilising democratically elected, but unfriendly regimes. That's hypocrisy. You cannot claim to be a defender of a nations sovereignty (Kuwait) and then ignore it when it suits you (Syria, Pakistan)
As George Washington wrote "The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. ..."
- Andrew Holt
October 30, 2008 12:20PM
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Reference
go look at
http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html
- Andrew Holt
October 30, 2008 12:25PM
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Why?
Why go to war when by becoming energy independent, we can bankrupt them while saving our economy by using the $700B/yr in overseas oil. They are on the edge now.
Taking that money for high mileage cars, high speed, commuter trains, NG semi's, Electric, plug in hybrid cars, jobs we could do it in 8-10 yrs.
Or we can go to war, bankrupt ourselves, kill off our soldiers, many innocent people! Your choice?
When are we going to get smart? I hope in 5 days!!
jerryd
- jerryd
October 29, 2008 8:16PM
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