We Should Do It For the Right Reasons
Should we take military action against Iran? Yes, if it is a war to defeat the Islamist regime in Teheran, and not a pinprick attack or another Iraq.
Many people rightly worry about the prospect that Iran may soon have a nuke. But that particular weapon--despite its power--cannot be the whole story, since we don't worry about other countries, such as France and Britain, having nukes. The difference is that the regime in Iran would eagerly press the launch button to attack us. Indeed, the Iranian regime long ago proved itself a deadly threat that must be ended militarily.
For three decades the ayatollahs of Iran have been waging a jihad against America and the West using proxies--such as Hezbollah--to carry out murderous attacks. Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps helped create and train Hezbollah, which hijacked a TWA airliner and which kidnapped and tortured to death American citizens. Iran pulled the strings behind the 1983 bomb attacks on the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon and later the barracks of U.S. Marines, killing 241 Americans. Iran also orchestrated the 1996 car bombing of Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, where 19 U.S. servicemen died.
There’s more: The 9/11 Commission found that "senior al Qaeda operatives and trainers traveled to Iran to receive training in explosives," and that "8 to 10 of the 14 Saudi 'muscle' operatives traveled into or out of Iran between October 2000 and February 2001." Today, according to the U.S. military, Iran is running training camps near Teheran for Iraqi insurgents, who return to Iraq to practice and train others in their bomb-making skills. There's also growing evidence that Iraqi insurgents get bomb technology from Iran.
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Why go to war when by becoming energy independent, we can bankrupt them while saving our economy by using the $700B/yr in overseas oil. They are on the edge now.
Taking that money for high mileage cars, high speed, commuter trains, NG semi's, Electric, plug in hybrid cars, jobs we could do it in 8-10 yrs.
Or we can go to war, bankrupt ourselves, kill off our soldiers, many innocent people! Your choice?
When are we going to get smart? I hope in 5 days!!
jerryd
I don't understand how an organisation that has as its stated goals "... promote the principles of reason, rational self-interest, individual rights and ... " can argue that to launch an aggressive war against a country that has not attacked the US.
Almost all of the cases you cite in support of you arguments are attacks against US military in places where they shouldn't be.
If you look at this from a different perspective. The US invaded Iraq. Over the years resistance to the US military presences has grown. When you are in that situation you will welcome help fro m the devil himself.
Iran has been funding and supporting numerous terrorists such as Hezbollah and Al Qaida for years, using them to give arms and training to insurgents who then cross the border into Iraq to kill American soldiers -- or, indeed, fly airplanes into our skyscrapers.
A war by proxy is still a war, despite the lack of official paperwork. Iran declared war on us years ago, and we must defend ourselves now, because next time it will not be a jet airplane that they attack us with.
It will be a nuclear bomb.
Iran does not support Al Qaida. The Shia of Iran and the Wahhabists of Saudi Arabia (Core of Al Qaeda ) are bitter enemies. Hezbollah is the Lebanese resistance against foreign aggression (nothing more and nothing less). Iran supports the Lebanese people with a few million dollars of weapons for self protection.
On the other hand USA supplies multiple billions of dollars worth of arms to Israel to attack the Palestinians and the lebanese.
If arms are given to Iraqis to defend themselves from US aggression and mass murder it can only be a good thing. America has no business being in Iraq as it is there only to steal and control the supply of the world's oil .
Iran never declared war on the US. However the US overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran to steal oil in 1953. America is the aggressor and war monger throughout the Middle East.
USA is the aggressor and the killer and the terrorist. - YANKEE GO HOME!
The US cannot occupy the moral high ground here.
Are you suggesting that the Soviet Union would have been justified in attacking the US when the CIA were arming & funding the Mujahideen ?
Or that the UK should have attacked the US when individuals were funding the IRA ?
Or that almost any central & south american nation would also have similar cause ?
Iran is a potential target because it's safe. There will be no ICBM's arcing towards US soil. I notice that the heat has gone out of the rhetoric aimed at North Korea. Concern about Chinese involvement perhaps ?
Here's a mad idea. Why do you think Iran wants nuclear weapons ? Because it fears that it's only defences against the West will be to have the ability to kill lot's of US soldiers. Try talking, bargaining, make use of the rational self-interest.
BTW
"From 1945 to 2003, the United States attempted to overthrow more than 40 foreign governments, and to crush more than 30 populist-nationalist movements fighting against intolerable regimes. In the process, the US bombed some 25 countries, caused the end of life for several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair."
William Blum
How can you equate the Soviet Union with the United States? The Soviet Union was a slave state fighting to bring even more people under it's oppressive regime, it had no rights and no justification for even existing. Likewise Iran has no right to oppress its citizens and wage Jihad on its neighbors and the US. It has no right to exist let alone have nuclear weapons. The United States for all its faults still stands for individual rights and freedom, that's why people come here in droves, including Muslims who have more rights here than anywhere in the Middle East. Such countries are an objective threat and any free country has a right to do what ever necessary to neutralize that threat. I don't believe Iraq was such a threat, Iran most certainly is, they have slaughtered hundred if not thousands of Americans. What would they do with a nuke?
"How can you equate the Soviet Union with the United States?"
I don't. I question the right of any nation to say that any other has no right to exist. The US is quick to say that Israel has a 'right' to exist.
Hypocrisy is the issue. The US says one thing and does another.
Can you give examples of Iran attacking the US ? There are several examples of the US attacking Iran.
You talk much of rights, by what 'right' does the US seek to impose it's model of democracy upon a nation, other than force of arms ?
The US is building an empire. It can impose it will either by using its military muscle, or by, effectively, blockading a country.
You have no right to impose your way on another, if you try they have the right to resist. Is that not how the US came to exist in the first place ?
So the Soviet Union (or Iran, or Taliban Afghanistan, or Nazi Germany) and the US are morally equivalent, neither is better than the other? That's just nihilism.
America is not a democracy, it's a constitutional republic based on the inalienable individual rights to life, liberty and happiness. Iran is a theocratic dictatorship where citizens have no rights. The difference is between freedom and slavery, life and death, that's what gives us the right. America has every right to protect the right of its citizens from the threats of illegitimate, totalitarian states such as Iran. Iran enslaves and slaughters its own citizens, it recognizes no rights; how absurd it is to claim it has the right not to be interfered with. The only empire being built is the one the Jihadists are building, they're the ones imposing an ideology and way of life on everybody. In the US and the West in general you can be whatever religion you want to be, and do whatever you want if you respect the same rights of others. To grasp this obvious difference I suggest you try being a Christian, or a Jew, or a secularist, or a woman, or a homosexual, or anything other than a good Islamic fundamentalist, in Iran.
Iran has been attacking the US since the invasion of our embassy in 1979.
1979 - US Embassy invaded and hostages seized [students sanctioned by Khomeni]
1983 - U.S. Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon. Sixty-three people were killed, including 17 Americans [Hezbollah]
1983 - American embassy in Kuwait was bombed. 5 people were killed, and more than 80 others were injured. [Al Dawa]
1982-92 - assorted kidnappings in Lebanon, totally 30 Westerners from '82-92 [Hezbollah]
1984 - truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. Embassy annex killing 24 people, two of whom were U.S. military personnel. [Hezbollah]
1984 - Kuwait Airways Flight 221, the hijackers killed two American officials from the U.S. Agency for International Development. [Hezbollah]
1985 - TWA Flight 847 was hijacked, hostage Robert Dean Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, was shot and his body dumped on the airport tarmac. U.S. [Hezbollah]
That's just 6 years and it just gets worse, do I have to go on? According to the FBI (reporting prior to 9/11), Iranian-backed Hezbollah was responsible for the slaughter of more Americans than any other group.
It's important to note that Iran's spreading of totalitarian Islam, and its involvement and success at sponsoring terrorism is what inspires and motivates Bin Laden and other terrorist organizations, and has made them think they can kidnap and murder Americans with impunity. If we had taken Iran at it's word and eliminated their terrorist state back in 1979 or even the early 1980s, in my opinion the resurgence of terrorism and 9/11 would never have happened. It's thanks to the non-military "solution" i.e. appeasement, that today terrorist groups operate all around the world (including a Hezbollah cell in my state in the US), raising funds and raising future "martyrs" who will probably make 9/11 look like child's play.
go look at
http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html
OK How about:
Iraq:
1963: CIA organises coup that killed president, brings Ba'ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.
Iran:
1951 Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh was elected prime minister.
1953 President Dwight D. Eisenhower authorised Operation Ajax. The operation was successful, and Mossadegh was arrested on 19 August 1953, With American support, the Shah was able to rapidly modernise Iranian infrastructure, but he simultaneously crushed all forms of political opposition.
Lebanon
1958: In that intervention, 14,000 Americans were sent to Lebanon by President Dwight D. Eisenhower to quell the opposition to President Camille Chamoun.
1981, Israeli air craft bombed multi-story apartment buildings in Beirut
1982: Israeli siege of Beirut
1982 Invasion of Lebanon by Israel
Others:
Cuba 1961 Attempted invasion and regime change in Cuba.
1962-present ongoing trade restrictions
Laos 1962 Invasion of neutral country
Dominican Republic 1965-66 Marines land during election campaign.
Guatemala 1966-67 Green Berets intervene against rebels.
Cambodia: 1969-75 Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
Oman: 1970 U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
Chile: 1973 CIA-backed coup ousts elected Marxist president.
... and so on ...
I have no sympathy with religion, Islam or otherwise. I have worked with the Saudi's, the government there is despicable.
My point is that you cannot credibly moralise about democracy whilst destabilising democratically elected, but unfriendly regimes. That's hypocrisy. You cannot claim to be a defender of a nations sovereignty (Kuwait) and then ignore it when it suits you (Syria, Pakistan)
As George Washington wrote "The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. ..."
Many of those were justified retaliations or acts of self-defense, Arafat and his thugs should have been wiped out in the siege of Lebanon but the US intervened on behalf of the PLO! Talk about hypocritical and suicidal! I abhor such hypocrisy. But why is hypocrisy wrong? Because it is unprincipled and causes the US to act counter to it's principles, against its own interest and security. So the solution is to be principled and unyielding in identifying threats as threats and responding with overwhelming force to neutralize them.
You still refuse to differentiate between nations based on respect for individuals and those that crush that freedom. Once again, the US is not a democracy (no Bush doesn't understand that), majority rule is immoral and leads not to freedom and justice but mob rule, exhibit A: Hamas. It's what they are that counts, not how they got there. Being an elected terrorist makes you no less a murderer, and being an elected tyrant doesn't entitle you to silence, enslave, rob and murder, nor does it exempt you from retaliation from your victims and would-be victims, such as Israel or the US. Morality is wholly on the side of free countries, slave and terrorist states are wholly illegitimate and and immoral, with no valid claims to sovereignty or self-determination, no matter how many ballots were cast in their establishment.
"Many of those were justified retaliations or acts of self-defence"
If your family had farmed in a place for generations, then some foreigner came and forced you to leave and gave your land to somebody else would you define a violent response as justified ?
That's exactly what started the Palestinian problem. When they returned they were evicted again & their houses dynamited, if they persisted they were killed.
How would you define a terrorist state ? one created by rebels or terrorists ? e.g. The USA, Israel, Vietnam, Cuba, India, South Africa ... in fact most states that were conquered by the West.
Or one that supports and funds terrorists, e.g. USA (Contra's, IRA, Mujahideen and so on), Israel (Christian militia in Lebanon)
"respect for individuals". I have been to the US many times. I have seen the homeless begging, and living on the streets, that's "respect" is it ?
"Being an elected terrorist makes you no less a murderer". So we should abandon the peace process in Northern Ireland, or refused to deal with Isreal because, at least for the first 40 years, they were former terrorists ? Unrealistic.
What I refuse to do is to insist that my morality overrides everybody else's. If the USA wants to show the superiority of its morals I suggest a better way is to live up to them.
I completely disagree with you on the Palestinian question, Israel has always been the pro-freedom country amidst a sea of dictatorships. However, the issue here is not Israel, but the US vs Iran.
To end this futile discussion I'll just say that we'd like nothing better than to be left alone to live our lives according to our moral code; but unfortunately that would be short sighted and suicidal because a would-be nuclear Iran is chanting "Death to the Great Satan." But that's a fact beyond the grasp of politically-correct moral relativists.
Type Palestine, Iraq or Iran into wikipedia since you have little knowledge of their history.
The reason why the US is generally disliked or hated abroad is that you will keep interfering. You can expect retaliation, is an inevitable consequence of the US foreign policy.
"politically-correct moral relativists", Well I've never been accused of being PC before, but there is a first time for anything. I'm OK with the moral relativist accusation since I find it a good antidote to moral arrogance.
Huh? Many of those were justified retaliations or acts of self-defense, Arafat and the PLO should have been wiped out in the seige of Lebanon but the US intervened on behalf of the PLO! Talk about hypocritical and suicidal! But of course the US has been hypocritical (show me a nation that hasn't been), and there's plenty of genuine cases you've left off. I abhor such hypocrisy, it is unprincipled and it undermines US security. So the solution is to be principled and unyielding in identifying threats as threats and responding with overwhelming force to neutralize them.
Once again, the US is not a democracy (no Bush doesn't understand that), majority rule is immoral and leads not to freedom and justice but mob rule, exhibit A: Hamas. Being an elected terrorist makes you no less a murderer, and being an elected tyrant doesn't entitle you to silence, enslave, rob and murder, nor does it exempt you from retaliation from your victims and would-be victims, such as Israel or the US.