U.S. Must Stop Israel’s Aggression and Talk to Hamas
President George W. Bush’s final blunder in the waning days of his presidency has been a blind support for Israel’s military campaign in Gaza that, as of this writing, has resulted in the death of more than 400 Palestinians, and close to 2000 injured, many of them women and children. Despite a growing international outcry against Israel’s atrocities, the Bush administration has maintained its complicity with Tel Aviv’s atrocities, which have been criticized by the UN officials in the strongest language. This will certainly backfire against the US, currently embroiled in two military campaigns in the Middle East, as well as the moderate pro-US Arab states, will radicalize the region and embolden the al-Qaeda terrorists.
Israel’s air offensive against Hamas will not suffice to uproot or defeat Hamas no matter how many bombs are dropped on Gaza and, henceforth, an Israeli ground offensive, culminating in more death and destruction visited upon the helpless and impoverished Gazans, yet without any prospect that the re-occupation of Gaza will lead to anything but another quagmire for Israel, winding the clock back to the past, that is, similar to the pre-2005 situation that forced Israel’s unilateral withdrawal, though without any accompanying political adjustment that would necessitate respecting the Palestinians’ choice of their political representatives.
Having violated its truce with Hamas on November 4th, when Israeli soldiers killed six Hamas activists inside Gaza, and refusing to lift its illegal and oppressive siege of Gaza, Israel is directly responsible for the Gaza crisis today, no matter how fiercely the White House spin doctors place the blame on Hamas’ crude rockets fired at Israel, fact is that any objective scrutiny of Israel’s iron-fist approach toward the long-suffering Palestinians would readily realize the serious defects of White House’s stated rationale for blindly supporting Israel’s military gambit in Gaza.
One can only hope that Bush’s dreadful Middle East error will not be recycled by the incoming Obama administration. A prudent White House under Obama should send strong signals to Israel that business as usual, that is US’s benign neglect of its oppression of Palestinians, should come to an immediate halt, that the US arms sold to Israel cannot be employed against Palestinians, for they are for self-defense purposes only, and that the Israeli policy of collective punishment of Palestinians living in Gaza is unacceptable and Israel should not prevent the delivery of medicine, food, fuel, and other basic necessities to the 1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza under any pretext.
In case Israel ignores the US’s pressure, the Obama administration must then contemplate the next alternative: suspending all financial and military aid to Israel pending its compliance with the UN request to suspend all military actions against the Palestinians living in Gaza. History proves that Israel responds only to such pressures from the US and the world community and will likely utilize its formidable army of pro-Israel lobbyists and media pundits to neutralize any attempt by president Obama to force a change of behavior on its part; distorting the facts about the Israel-Palestinian conflict, by depicting Hamas as an Iranian “proxy” pure and simple, is an integral aspect of pro-Israel propaganda today. President Obama should listen instead to the voices of reason, such as former president Jimmy Carter, as well as the former US envoy to the Middle East, retired general Anthony Zinni, who have advised the US government to engage in direct dialogue with Hamas, despite the Israeli leaders’ politics of exterminism and their declared intention of carrying the Gaza campaign to “the bitter end.” By all indication, the latter can only be achieved by a prolonged and brutal campaign that will exponentially multiply the Gazan war casualties, in a word, a genocidal war.
In conclusion, one only hopes that the president-elect Barack Obama will break his inexcusable silence on this crisis and clearly demonstrates the contours of a wind of change in US’s hitherto one-sided and unbalanced pro-Israel policy that consistently ignores the interests and sentiments of the 90 percent plus of the region’s population who are Muslims. Any hint by Obama that he is unwilling to pressure Israel will be a recipe for disaster and an ominous sign of a US foreign policy taken hostage by the pro-Israel lobby.
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Didn't Hillary give Hamas 800 million to buy rockets, that should be enought help.
We, some people here in Israel, see the world news presenting the war in Gaza.
We feel that we have to share a few important facts with the world around us.
To us it seems obvious, but apparently the world news does not show it and so the world doesn’t know our side of the story:
The world doesn’t know about Hamas people running around in Gaza while grabbing 10-year-old kid from his mom to protect themselves from gunshots
The world doesn’t know about hundreds of trucks loaded with food, medicine, and aid that the Israeli army provides to help the Palestinian people
The world doesn’t know about the phone calls that the Israeli army is making to the people of Gaza warning them before striking to minimize civilian casualties even if it means losing the element of surprise and letting terrorists escape with the civilians.
The world doesn’t know that Hamas have been firing rockets on the civilian population in the South of Israel for the last 8 years….!!!
And the Israeli population is leaving under constant threat for 8 years, running to shelters with each bomb, can't send kids to school or go to work safely every single day.
The world doesn’t know that by the time Hamas leaders hide in underground bunkers and tunnels, they leave the Gaza population above ground unprotected (the same population that elected Hamas in democratic ways)
The world doesn’t know that the Hamas terrorists use civilian facilities like schools, kindergartens, and mosques to launch their rockets towards Israel, and then, after Israel strikes these weapons stores, they show pictures of these bombed civilian facilities to the world.
The world doesn’t k now that the checkpoints that Israel keeps in the west bank are to prevent suicide terrorists from terrorizing civilians in Israel’s main cities
The world doesn’t know that Hamas are using ambulances to move terrorists from the west bank in to Israel, and to smuggle bomb vests under stretchers with old people lying on it.
The world doesn't know- we’re facing a terrorist organization here, that's whom we deal with and that's what we’ve experienced for the last 8 years-
And we waited so long without saying a thing, (no country in the world would have waited that long) but now time has come to protect ourselves from terror, for good!
Please let everyone know about our side of the story, even if we fail to say it out loud on the media- we the people want the world to know and be aware!
Americans have no idea how skewed and limited our view of the world is. We buy the party line about Israel being holy and above reproach without questioning whether they still deserve such special status. They do not. Any other country committing the same atrocities toward an entire people would be rightly called racist if not downright genocidal. Israel doesn't want peace, they just want all the Palestinians gone. Move 'em, kill 'em...just be gone. And our tax dollars keep this tragedy rolling on and on.
Just seeing the death tolls, Israel's actions are despicable. If you know your history, the "nation" of Israel came into being from anti-semitic nazi-sympathizers whose entire mission was to create unrest in the middle east. Don't believe me? They said it themselves, do your research.
The fact that so many people buy into Israel's propaganda is depressing. When their ambassador to the UN is hiding a smirk while saying they care about the Palestinian people, and are not targeting innocent civilians, you know that she is lying. Hundreds of women and children killed, for what? So Israel can continue to oppress a people who cannot defend themselves? Shame on anyone who supports Israel.
The US should place an embargo on Israel, no trade, no more illegal arms dealing, no more economic handouts to these terrorists. I have nothing against Jewish people by the way, however many have been brainwashed to believe that they are superior to others and "deserve" a piece of land, and that it is okay to kill for it. Think for yourself.
These people have been fighting for thousands of years. It will never end. Having pity on Hamas, Hesbollah and Org like these is crazy. These people have crossed the line of Sanity and are Loons. You can not deal with insanity. They will not stop unless they are dead. They certainly won't talk to anyone who disagrees with their Idology.
Here is a piece of reality.
Four quotations from a New York Times article on the IDF invasion of Gaza (read it yourself at http://www.denverpost.com/extras/ci_11340515 ):
1) “Israel said Tuesday it was considering a 48-hour cease-fire that would require Hamas to stop its rocket fire. … Israel seeking at least a pause so that humanitarian relief could be delivered [to Palestinian civilians].”
=> What, the evil Israelis are offering aid to Palestinian civilians in Gaza. "INconCEIVable" (from "The Princess Bride")
2) “…Hamas violated the previous agreement by firing rockets into Israel.”
=>That’s an understatement, since Hamas militants have been firing numerous rockets daily, for months. Observe who violated their own agreement with Israel for a cease fire: Hamas. They are murderous liars. That is, they live by the Qu’ran’s oft repeated calls to kill infidels and moral injunction that lying is wrong —unless it is to infidels (n.b. that means YOU, dear reader, unless you are Muslim.)
3) "It would be easier to dry the sea of Gaza than to defeat the resistance and uproot Hamas, which is in every house of Gaza," said the statement from the military wing of Hamas. … The statement added that if there were a ground invasion, "the children of Gaza will be collecting the body parts of your soldiers and the ruins of tanks."
=>You say it is Israel that is the aggressor, hardly! Hamas has nothing to offer the world but hatred and violence. Note that *according to Hamas* “every house of Gaza” harbors Hamas militants. Is that an invitation to have every house in Gaza leveled, or what?? They may as well announce, “We have no interest in whether we, or our women and children (aka ‘civilians’) live, so long as Jews die.” Other Muslim leaders have been quite explicit in ridiculing Westerners because they want to live, whereas Muslims are more than willing to die, for Allah.
4) “13-year-old… Yousef, took an unusual stand for someone in Gaza. "I blame Hamas. It doesn't want to recognize Israel. If they did so, there could be peace," he said. "Egypt made a peace treaty with Israel, and nothing is happening to them."
=> Here is a 13 year old boy, telling the World that Emporer Hamas has no clothes.
This kid clearly ‘gets it’, but apparently much of the ethically challenged, civilized world is having trouble grasping the blindingly obvious. Will Kenny Pittman or Socialist Betty and their like, listen to him or are they also too ethically challenged?
As for me, I concur with the following statement:
“We recognize that those who attack Israel are not seeking to establish an even freer nation: they are seeking to wipe out the only outpost of freedom in the Middle East. We support Israel not for its failings but for its virtues, and we understand that those who threaten Israel's freedom also threaten America's. If they succeed in destroying Israel, they will turn their full attention to the United States.”
See the 4th paragraph at
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=media_america_at_war_israeli_arab_conflict
It's no surprise a 13 yr old would have no knowledge of the historical and current reality -- a racist state financed by a mercantilist state to keep a dispossessed people dispossessed.
"It doesn't want to recognize Israel. If they did so, there could be peace,"
Israel doesn't want to return the property stolen from the Palestinian Muslims. If they did so, there could be peace. The cost of doing so would be tiny portion of Israel's spending on armaments.
You claim without proof that Palestinian leadership deliberately keeps the camps in abjection in order to keep their power. The simple fact is Israel's funding from the US is directly proportional to its danger level -- hardly an situation conducive to Israeli leaders seeking peaceful settlement, is it?
"It's no surprise a 13 yr old would have no knowledge of the historical and current reality"
So there is no peace treaty with Egypt? Is Israel at Peace with Egypt or not?
"a racist state financed by a mercantilist state to keep a dispossessed people dispossessed."
If by "racist" you mean that they established a nation to establish one place in the world that Jews would not be persecuted by racists, then sure - I guess you could say that. Just as the Civil Rights act in the United States was a racist policy, designed to correct historical racism.
>"It doesn't want to recognize Israel. If they did so, there could be peace,"<
"Israel doesn't want to return the property stolen from the Palestinian Muslims."
What land? Some refugees lost land in 1947 as a result of feeling or siding with the civil war they could have stayed out of. Unfortunately, those who fought Israel in 1947 (starting in the 1800s) tried to besiege Jerusalem through the relatively easy means of attacking its sole supply line as it weaved through villages. Those villages were eventually targeted by the troops who had to break the siege (obviously).
One of the many tragedies of war are that innocents suffer next to the guilty as a result of legitimate self-defense.
It's also tragic that people conflate property ownership with sovereignty. "Israel" stole no land. Israel won land in a defensive war. Any property owner had every right to approach the new government with their property rights claims. I assume that this was not possible in many cases, not by the fault of the owners, but of the enemies of Israel who use refugees as a weapon to this day. If you care at all about humans, you'd see the facts: a small minority of religious radicals have been fomenting war and religious hatred for decades with Israel and for centuries in the case of some Islamic people.
"If they did so, there could be peace."
This is a delusional statement in light of what I already responded to.
"The cost of doing so would be tiny portion of Israel's spending on armaments."
I believe that all collectivist claims should be rejected, and that once the war is ended, CLEARLY the entire world would gain.
If Israel caves in or is defeated, the world will NEVER have peace again, because we have already created a system that rewards terror. Only by destroying those gains can one say again the crime and terror do not pay. It's not quite true, at least so far.
I am not your teacher and you bore me, go learn for yourself, it is the first Google search I tried. Imagine that, research at your finger tips!
http://tinyurl.com/7vv4x7
There is no way to get to a peaceful resolution because nobody wants one. Not the US not Israel and not Palestine. When you look at your advisory as sub human (as these two groups defiantly do) how can you come to a peaceful agreement. There is no human compassion no rational thought process only destruction.
The history lesson is great but that’s not going to solve the problem. These people hate each other the governments (on both sides) love it and need it to flourish. Stop the propaganda machine both sides are wrong. Archaic arguments are not going to resolve anything all that is being accomplished here is to widen the divide.
The Israelis are not killing teenagers dancing in night clubs, launching rockets at private homes during ceasefires, and are not blowing up AUSTRALIAN TOURISTS in nightclubs. Americans and Israelis have been appeasing the Muslim Jihadists for decades, when they should have quashed that jihad in its modern infancy.
Independent D, the Muslim apologizers have no excuse, as citizens in a society that serious Muslims want destroyed rather than to benefit from. Muslims are even immigrating into such societies, at the encouragement of their clerics, for the express purpose of destroying them. They are not seeking KP’s “revenge”, they want to destroy the best qualities of The West.
The apologizers side with seething murderers, rationalizing every killing as the fault of the victim. Blaming the victim is the oldest trick in the book of evil. It’s how sick minds justify personal resentments against the BEST qualities of the victim. Qualities they will not name, b/c in doing they reveal their hatred of The Good for being good! They emphasize trivial details, while ignoring fundamental and obvious evidence of their own folly.
I am of the opinion that B. Obama will be not much different from the Bush administration when it comes to Middle East (especially Israeli-Palestinian) affairs. Remember how fast Obama issued condemnation of the attacks in India a month or so ago when a few places in a city were attacked. While now that the entire population of over 1.5 million in Gaza is being systematically killed and injured by the ongoing Israeli military attacks, Mr. Obama conveniently remains silent and issues an inexcusable statement that there is only one president at a time. Because, he dares not challenge the LOBBY. The Israeli LOBBY and especially AIPAC is so strong in this country that no elected official will dare taking a step that is not in sync with the LOBBY's expectations and agenda in the Middle East. The Western world and US adm. don't really care an iota about the poor and helpless Palestinians and they will spin the events in any way they can in order to justify the genocide currently taking place in Gaza.
The only proper strategy for Israel and the U.S. to adopt against any and all terrorism, is three-fold:
1. Intelligence
A thorough covert identification of all suppliers of terrorist military equipment and funding.
2. Military Retaliation
a) When clear information is acquired (actually enough is already clear), a simultaneous destruction of supply lines, economic boycotts of minor players, and complete aerial destruction of all Hamas and Hezbollah (or other) terrorist installations (where-ever they may be), including offices, military buildings or private homes from which terror attacks are planned &/or launched.
b) This should include all government buildings and government military buildings of any nation providing significant support for (Islamic) terrorists, including those who obfuscate intelligence efforts.
c) No Israeli or American soldier should set foot on the soil of these nations!
3. Announcement of Moral and Political Certainty
a) A joint U.S. Israeli statement will be made, to the World, that no government or individuals who initiate violence against other individuals or nations have any moral or political legitimacy. That it is the responsibility of legitimate governments to retaliate militarily, fully and effectively, against those who initiate violence against their peaceful citizens.
b) Therefore, all further terrorist acts will be immediately met with the same retaliatory treatment, as named above, unless the terrorists' host nation acts immediately to capture, try and imprison (or put to death) the terrorists responsible.
c) The statement must make it clear that ongoing covert terrorism is a primitive cowardly approach that violates the Individual Right of the victims to Life, Liberty, Property and the Pursuit of Happiness, and will no longer be tolerated in a modern World. Any nation that fails to act accordingly will not be invaded, but its military and government establishments will be destroyed without warning and without international 'consultation'.
d) The blood of any and all innocent civilians harmed in such actions will be on the hands of the terrorists who initiated the violence, and on the hands of those governments that fail to act against the terrorists.
Anyone who thinks the issue is "more complex", or that the above is too "simplistic" need to reconsider not only their premises but also the destructive effects their confusions bring upon innocent human lives.
Afrasiabi claims U.S. support of Israel will "certainly backfire against the U.S.", yet all U.S. attempts to establish peaceful negotiations fail because Palestinians/Hamas use the negotiation period to regroup and then continue their random attacks on Israel. So by Afrasiabi's own argument, there is no solution except for Israel to surrender, unconditionally. Clearly the consequences for Israelis would be deadly, given that Palestinian militants under Hamas (& previously Arafat) have no regard for the lives of their own women and children.
These militants are well known to launch RPGs from sites close to schools and hospitals, in the hope that Israel retaliation will kill the women and children there (see #7 below). Absurdly, their tactic works to garner the support of an astoundingly gullible international community. That community becomes complicit in the deaths of Palestinian women and children brought about by Palestinian militants not by Israel's intentional retaliations.
Afrasiabi is wrong in suggesting U.S. support for Israel will " radicalize the region and embolden the al-Qaeda terrorists ." In every period where the militant Islamists have met serious military resistance, the rate of terror attacks on peaceful citizens declines significantly. I maintain Afrasiabi knows this, as do the greater body of terrorist and religious Muslim leaders. They use Afrasiabi's claim fully expecting it will allow the militant Muslims to engage in more terrorism, with relative impunity.
The rest of Afrasiabi's argument flies in the face of the actual nature of this conflict. If all of the Muslim nations were assembled into a single geographical region the size of a football field, Israel would constitute an patch the size of a book of paper matches. Palestinians could do very well, by the standards they claim to desire by working with their Muslim neighbors to establish a peaceful way of life. That is not what they want. They do not want to live, or live better, what they do want is to see Jews die.
Ultimately, the Palestinians (and Afrasiabi) have no historical, political or geographically legitimate claims in any form unless, that is, one accepts religious and racial bigotry as legitimate!
1. Palestine was a region, like "New England", never a nation.
2. When Muslim leaders of the Palestinians learned Hitler was killing Jews the chief Mufti readily assembled an entire Division (!) of volunteer Palestinians to help the Nazis. The Nazis lost the war and were deservedly vanquished. The Palestinians were on the morally evil side, and lost. In that choice, and with that failing, they have NO claim to any land or political status whatsoever.
3. The Israelis do not swarm into the streets cheering when a few Palestinians are killed, but the Palestinians do when dancing Jewish teenagers are slaughtered by a Palestinian genocide bomber.
4. Any Palestinian living in Israel has a better chance of prospering peacefully, by his own productive effort, than does any Palestinian under the dictatorship mentality of Hamas and, previously, Arafat.
5. Israel's government properly considers the lives of its citizens a value. If I lived there, as an atheist, I would still expect them to defend and protect me from mindless fanatics crude efforts to kill me by launching RPGs amongst my fellow citizens.
6. Palestinian leaders have no problem keeping their 'refugee' camps as places of poverty and grief, because it gains the foolish sympathy of the West. Even portions of UN funding for those camps is diverted to Palestinian militancy, rather than the needs of the Palestinian refugees themselves.
7. Israelis use their military to organize honest military assaults in defense of their citizens, rather than launching RPGs from sites near schools and hospitals and darting away, as cowards, by scurrying amongst their own women and children.
8. It is a blunt fact that Islam views any non-Muslim as a contemptible animal towards whom lying is entirely acceptable. Palestinians are no exception, and Arafat was particularly convincing in his lies.
9. The Palestinians, historically & by tenets of their primitive religious beliefs, are the initiators of violence in that region. They have no regard for peace, or even life —far more important to them is to see Jews & other kafir ( sensu an ingrate to Allah, an infidel) die .
10. Muslim schools, including those in Palestine, teach religious bigotry, misleading historical background, and inculcate the belief that killing the kafir for Allah is a holy achievement, especially if the student dies in the attempt ...hardly a cultural leaning towards peace!
Afrasiabi's arguments are disingenuous to say the least.
Part III (cont'd from part II)
Wikipedia also says, "Secret World War II documents released by the UK in July, 2001, include documents on an Operation Atlas (See References: KV 2/400–402). A German task force, lead by Kurt Wieland, parachuted into Palestine in September 1944. This was one of the last German efforts in the region to attack the Jewish community in Palestine and undermine British rule by supplying local Arabs with cash, arms and sabotage equipment. The Palestinians would have nothing to do with the Germans and their philosophy, and, thus, the team was captured and picked up shortly after landing."
See Part IV
This is a factoid of the kind you accuse me of using. What Palestinians did the German infiltrators land amongst? Notice that the Germans were clearly losing the war by September of 1944. Hitler committed suicide seven months later. What Palestinian, regardless of his hatred for Jews, would take up the German cause at that point in time??? You are grasping at straws, KP!
You are right. The date of that certainly nullifies its suitability to the point I was making.
Keep it up and we might get somewhere. My "you bore me" remark _may_ be retractable.
Part VI (cont'd from part V)
RnBram says, "… some 70% of Islamic text advocates the elimination of the tribe of Israel and of the Kafir."
I say, "Prove it"!
RnBram’s other “arguments” are more of the same subjectively chosen pseudo-facts and not worth anyone's time.
As I began -- RnBram hangs his argument on the "morality" of the Palestinians. I have seen more than I can stomach of his morality.
I could not retrieve the exact quote, so you can argue I have it wrong, but it was not a "subjectively chosen pseudo-fact". The Qu'ran and other Muslim sources repeatedly advocate the elimination of the tribe of Israel and of the kafir (particularly the US and other non-Muslim nations.
Witness (have the intellectual decency to examine these thoroughly or shut up):
=> http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR01102
=> http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR01303
(note this is before the War on Terror began, and after the World Trade Center destruction).
=> http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR01002 (they are disgusting)
=> http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR2003
(Palestinian Authority fakes a reduction in incitements to violence against Israel)
=> "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali
There are many more, at that one source! How much information do you need to see reason, or is your refusal to see reason the real problem here?
Shall I pull out quote after quote of American baptist preachers using the bible to show that God made blacks black as a penitence and thus enslaving them is justified? Those preachers roots were not in a cultural cauldron like the Middle East, but in the "enlightened" British tradition. Their psychopathology is the same but infinitely less justifiable, since directed at wholly defenseless people who had never done them any harm.
Muslim countries have, on average, had scarcely a century to come out from under the boot of overt imperialism and are still under the boot of "polite" imperialism as manifest by the mercantilism of resource extraction corporations backed by US diplomatic, military and intelligence forces.
Some portion of Islamic clergy have been radicalized to extremist interpretations. Others haven't. If the radical ranks are increasing, one has only to look at:
- US financing the Taliban to power, then attacking Afghanistan to get them out of power.
- US financing the Shah of Iran to power, then financing Saddam Hussein to power to attack Iran, when the Shah falls out of power.
- US attacking Iraq to get Hussein out of power.
- US financing Israelis to keep power in Palestine.
- and on and on...
The pattern is consistent, consistently murderous, and its philosophy is Mercantilism.
You scrupulously avoid ANY acknowledgment of those facts, RnBram. Why? Is your refusal to see all the facts the real problem here?
Financing the Israelis is the absolutely correct and moral thing to do, IFF it were not with taxpayers money. To do so while also funding UN aid to Palestinians is an absurd contradiction.
I see you still presume the Israelis are the problem. You have a lot of comparative & context-conscious research to do. The Israelis simply are not the warmongers, not the terrorists, not the backwards political & cultural group in this conflict. It is unfathomable that being smart enough to see that Palestinians rejected the losing Nazis solicitations, you can’t see the wealth of incriminating information re. the Muslim world, exonerates the Israelis. Not Then there’s the absurdity of Muslims killing people for a piece of land (Israel) the size of a *matchbox* lying amongst (Muslim) land the size of a football field… see here: http://www.opposingviews.com/comments/cont-d-2 The issue is entirely Arab relgio-racism.
Overall, I see the facts, & carry them more deeply than you realize.
Dubya should never have put American feet in Iraq, but he should have utterly destroyed, by aerial attack, everything and anything to do with Hussein's dictatorship. This is because no government that violates the right of its own citizens to life, liberty, property and the pursuit of their own happiness has any right to 'self determination'. It is a moral abomination. If there was an honest belief in WMDs and perhaps in Hussein interfering with the search for bin Laden, then such a bombing IS proper for the US. Nation building, which G.W.Bush initially and rightfully rejected, was about the stupidest thing of anything he did in both terms. That was not Mercantilism either.
Cont'd
There are aspects of each item in your list of US behavior with which I disagree, but they are not fundamentally *causal*. I have explained why more than enough. Mercantilism is not quite the right term & is NOT explanatory, as you suggest.
1 & 2 had a larger purpose than the individual events themselves: the US was coping with actions by other nations. My view is Jeffersonian: the US should eschew foreign "adventures" save to protect its citizens & trade from interference by other nations or pirates. The modern US (which is pretty despicable, but no worse than other nations would be iff they had the same economic power) has gone well beyond that line. World expectation (“Oh, help them”, “now stop them”, “now help here”, etc.) and a US desire to block communism (Taliban to power) took them too far. Generally they sought to support the lesser evil but, like voting for the lesser evil, good is not achieved, only a delay in the collapse to destruction.
Cont’d
Part IV (cont'd from part III)
RnBram says, "-- the lands given to the Israelis were the so-called 'spoils of war'" and then, "The Palestinians, historically & by tenets of their primitive religious beliefs, are the initiators of violence in that region."
Wikipedia say, "Despite the pressure of world opinion, in particular the repeated requests of US President Harry S. Truman and the recommendations of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry that 100,000 Jews be immediately granted entry to Palestine, the British maintained the ban on immigration. The Jewish underground forces then united and carried out several terrorist attacks and bombings against the British. In 1946, the Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the headquarters of the British administration, killing 92 people."
See Part V
The 'several' bombings could be counted on one's fingers and in EVERY case they phoned the very buildings to be bombed and told everyone to get out immediately. No British lives were taken. Their intent was not exactly 'terrorism', but a desperate effort to get the British to allow further immigration. That entire context is RADICALLY different from what the Muslims are doing.
Part V (cont'd from part IV)
RnBram says, "Any Palestinian living in Israel has a better chance of prospering peacefully, by his own productive effort, than does any Palestinian under the dictatorship mentality of Hamas and, previously, Arafat."
Peaceful prosperity, as well as a pacific morality, derives in large part from land tenure. This is obviously impossible for people forcibly displaced from their own lands and driven into in refugee camps.
RnBram's argument is sickeningly disingenuous.
See Part VI
The 'refugee' Palestinians cannot get their own land by virtue of the 'government' of the Palestinians, under Arafat and now the leaders of Hamas. In fact these men are widely known, among those who pay attention to where funding goes, to be *using* the refugees as a PR claim to gain International support. If the Palestinian leaders had ANY interest in improving the lot of Palestinians they would be working towards land tenure on the land they have, rather than inciting violence and lobbing RPGs randomly among Israeli civilians **even as they claim the Israelis should be talking peace**! Do you get that?? The Muslims in general want their target victims to talk peace, but they have no intention of achieving peace until Israel is wiped out, as they plainly repeat. This sentiment is not limited to a few Muslim factions, it is ubiquitous to the Muslim Ummah (community) including the greater portion of Palestinians... see here: http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD212108
Part II (cont'd from part I)
"... the chief Mufti readily assembled an entire Division (!) of volunteer Palestinians"
From what Zionist tract did you cherry pick that one RnBram? One has only to go to Wikipedia to see your deliberate revisionism. "As in most of the Arab world, there was no unanimity amongst the Palestinian Arabs as to their position regarding the combatants in World War II. Palestinians, by this point, were tired of outside forces controlling their destiny. Most preferred to be neutral in what they perceived as 'other people's conflict'. However, most youth signed up for the British army, primarily because Britain was the 'mother country', but a few saw an Axis victory as the likely outcome and a way of securing Palestine back from the Zionists and the British. "
Also, "About 6,000 Palestinian Arabs and 26,000 Palestinian Jews joined the British forces."
See Part III
I do not trust Wikipedia, but I do trust the photos and information provided in the link I provided to your above comment. Note that Palestinian Jews are Jews!!! I'd bet that few of the Palestinian Arabs returned to Palestine after the war, and I would bet that those few do not support Hamas. I do, gladly, admit that I erred (having recalled the composition only from memory) in saying the Mufti's Panzer Division was composed of volunteer "Palestinians" — it was of "Muslims", However, as I said above, that changes nothing I said about the situation today, Palestinians, and most Muslims in the Mid-East, are indoctrinated, by men following in that Mufti's footsteps, with the standard Qu'ranic view that Jews and other kafir should convert or be killed.
Part I
RnBram hangs his argument on the "morality" of the Palestinians -- cherry picking his way through history or taking isolated "facts" and making "Palestinians" collectively responsible.
"Palestine was a region, like "New England", never a nation. “-- Lovely picture isn't it? Nice clean and orderly New England; yet utterly at odds with the facts. Ages of Ottoman Empire corruption and oppression followed by decades of contradictory semi-fascist British imperialism are hardly the environment for the "wogs" to learn any thing of RnBram's morality. What could the ordinary Palestinian learn, in Arabic, of the true nature of Hitler’s policies, when much of it was unrevealed until WWII had ended?
See Part II
I chose New England because it was a region, not because it was picturesque, and you know it. I could have picked "the Sahel" or "the American Heartland" or "the Amazon" all of which are regions not Nations. Unless you are extraordinarily stupid, I am sure you understood that, so your rebuttal is simply dishonest!
You are right about the Ottoman Empire, I just did not get into it, having said quite enough to make the point.
British Colonialism was a massive improvement over the Ottoman Empire... it is wrong to apply values you understand today to a time when few understood them. As nations like Britain grew to embrace those values, most Palestinians did not... many of those who did moved out, even moving into Israel.
What did they know of Hitler's policies...Hitler saw them as allies & went to them!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sk3fKY9PhY
The Palestinian Mufti’s Panzer division was composed of Muslims from around the World. Palestinian leaders now follow his example.
I don't think I'm "extraordinarily stupid", since you specifically said it was "like" New England, but, with an untenable position such as yours, I certainly understand your desperation to turn this into a demeaning exchange of insults. Would you knock me to the ground so we can see eye to eye, RnBram?
You say, "British Colonialism was a massive improvement over the Ottoman Empire." Waterboarding is a massive improvement over throwing "gooks" out of helicopters.
You say, "it is wrong to apply values you understand today to a time when few understood them." Precisely! Why do you keep doing it? By the same token, it is wrong to apply values you understand in your cultural context, to another cultural context with great obstacles to understanding them. The British had centuries of gradually converging philosophical development, under a governing system of comparatively complete continuity. The Middle East, lies right on the faultline between numerous different religions and civilizations, not to mention global reach subjugation as begun by the "enlightened" British. It is completely hypocritical to pretend they've had the same "time" to develop, when any intellectual development gets splintered by the next invasion.
So you'll excuse me RnBram, but you are the one wrongly applying the yardstick.
"Hitler saw them as allies & went to them!" Sure, just as he went to many other victims of colonization, and to Kennedy and Lindburgh and so many others. Some were lured (the Irish!), others weren't. But with your collectivist logic, because some Palestinians went, all are guilty.
"like" was perfectly accurate. You have brough
If you knew more, you would not accuse me of misapplying today's values to circumstances 63 years ago and before. All of my comments are within their respective contexts, all of them. It is your lack of context that renders you unable to properly evaluate the viciousness of your position... and your position is virulently vicious with respect to Israel.
They, in the Middle East, had their chance to become civilized a thousand plus years before the British (who were more of a stabilizing and civilized force than the previous Ottoman Empire, as I have already mentioned) ...shortly after the decline of the Hellenist Greeks.
Indeed, Arabs are fond of claiming their civility and intellectual advances of some *two millennia ago*, but they dropped it all for Islam. That is what religious belief does to reason. I suppose they can thank Mohammad as much as or more than any other Arab for their backward slide, and complete failure to recover. That failure is the real reason why the Middle East is the 'fault-line' to which you refer.
Unable to to be civilized with each other, they could never form a coherent nation of any size (in a time when size and military strength was everything) except through temporarily powerful sheiks. Because they dropped true civilization for dictatorial religious caliphates, the things you use defend them have kept them culturally and socially primitive, overall, ever since.
So you see, they DID have the opportunity, and thousands of years of time to do what the British did in only a few hundred years. Even in the last two hundred years, the Arab World could have seen the progress made as a result of the Western Enlightenment, but instead they chose to ignore it and still do. They even send their children to the West so the children can use western technology against westerners... talk about biting the hand that feeds them. There are no automobile plants, no medical research establishments, no agricultural development projects, no modern corporations, except those paid for by oil. Compare that with the Israeli efforts in the same region in which you claim Arabs cannot develop because they are in a faultline of conflict. It does not wash KP.
BTW, do you really believe the British were not invaded numerous times by all sorts of past nations, kings and barbarians. Your knowledge of history is severely lacking, even "relatively speaking". There were periods where Britons were almost completely replaced by invaders!
You misrepresent my argument about guilty Palestinians, by ignoring the statements I made qualifying it. Come on. That alone is ridiculous of you, but is nothing as compared to the fact that your every important argument simply does not stand, not one. The main body of Muslims (and Palestinians, in this narrower discussion) are at war with the rest of the world. They have been so since Mohammed. That is the mentality they are acting on today, the mentality of a warrior crusader from one thousand five hundred years ago, period.
There is such a vast body of evidence that directly contradicts your viewpoint, that I suspect there is an underlying issue in your psycho-epistemology that causes you to continue fighting 'intellectually' for so pointless and worthless a cause. Why not advocate that Hamas stop launching rockets at the Israelis and start directing international funding they receive towards agriculture and business development. As the 13 year old boy here points out, that's all they have to do. They could live at least as well as Italians, or Greeks, or Chinese do in Toronto. They could still be Palestinians. Why should they have a homeland, except for essential racio-relgious bigotry. But then that is the real bottom line, which I vehemently reject. It is why you and I may never agree, until you can shake that primitive fundamental. Every man is an individual, he is not a Palestinian or a Jew or a German except in the superficial trappings of skin culture, of cultural experience and birthing ground.
You are Canadian, here in Canada the same racial notions (barely hidden beneath a claim of language differences) inflame enough Quebecois that they believe they deserve different treatment from other Canadians *because* they are French. It is precisely that nonsense that Jefferson's Declaration of Individual Rights sought to eliminate. The World has had 200+ years to see the value of that document, and even most Americans no longer understand its full implications and implementation.
1. What the crap was Israel? A group of nomads tied together by their religious beliefs. Let's just create a state out of that and call it legitimate because obviously the history of such a tribe deserves to have some place to call home - even if it on land that others have occupied. So one group has rights to land and one doesn't. Let's just fight a thousand or so years about it, and then just keep right on doing it. Sounds like a good plan.
2. That also means the Germans and the Italians have NO claim to any land, or political status whatsoever. So glad to hear that. How do you propose we divvy up the pieces? Should we inform these people that they'll suddenly have to leave their homes? Should we give them a territory that we consider undesirable? I know it kind of sounds mean, and sort of what my country did to the native population here, but you're entirely right.... these people never should have had and land or political status at all.
3.Oh not at all. All Israelis weep at the thought of pain and suffering wrought upon their enemy and all Palestinians just scheme away at how they kill little Israeli babies. That's exactly what happens. Israeli people would never at all do anything wrong and Palestinians would never do anything right. Palestinians naturally rely on groups like Hamas to do their killing... horrible. The only proper way to do is, naturally to put on a uniform.
4. That's true. If only there wasn't a wall, and if only Israel didn't close Palestine off. Israel is so gracious and beneficial, but only within its own borders. Israel's officials were elected, but Hamas? They only won their political support by building things like roads and hospitals.... totally don't care at all about the people. Total dictatorship. Yep.
5. Launched for no reason. what-so-ever, might I add. Never at all would Israel ever be guilty of anything but angel wings and flowers. It's never acceptable to launch missiles... but especially not of the imaginary act of intentionally closing the Gaza crossing.... not allowing even food in. Must be imaginary because that's not angel wings and flowers.
6. ....Sure. Whatever you want to think. Actually I'm just so creeped out by you... all the sarcasm in the world could't cover up the extreme disgust you're giving me in the pit of my stomach. Yep, no problem at all watching people starve, be born and die in dirt and blood. If only there could be a nation to try and eradicate Palestine so we could all be shocked and outraged, and then build them their own nation. But that would never happen because Palestinians haven't built up global wealth at a means of controlling the foreign policies of other countries. Nor have the support of fundamentalist Christians voting on their side.
7. Completely honest... like killing children playing soccer for trying to get a ball that wasn't on their "territory". Or randomly shooting farmers.
8. Wow. It's funny, but Hitler was wrong for this... and rightly so. The only time such sentiments are acceptable are if they expressed against all people of Islam. Especially any Palestinian.
9. The Palestinians, historically & by tenets of their primitive religious beliefs, are the initiators of violence in that region. They have no regard for peace, or even life —far more important to them is to see Jews & other kafir ( sensu an ingrate to Allah, an infidel) die .
Spread around hate and fear... mmm, tasty. More please!
10. Muslim schools, including those in Palestine, teach religious bigotry, misleading historical background, and inculcate the belief that killing the kafir for Allah is a holy achievement, especially if the student dies in the attempt ...hardly a cultural leaning towards peace!
Oh. goody. Exactly what I wanted. More incomprehensible fear and hate mongering towards one particular group of people.
Lunacy!
Muslim schools, including those in Palestine, teach religious bigotry, misleading historical background, and inculcate the belief that killing the kafir for Allah is a holy achievement, especially if the student dies in the attempt ...hardly a cultural leaning towards peace!
How can you oppose me on the 'Does Islam promote violence' thread and mouth these sentiments here? Have you NO intellectual integrity?
Do you believe ANYTHING you say, or do you just like to be inflammatory?
Some. Some of them do.
How interesting that you've brought your same illogical and hideously Hitler-like tendencies to advocate the destruction and annihilation of an entire religion into this thread from the "Does Islam Promote Violence" thread.
So let me just say something here that I hope your intellectual integrity can handle - although I doubt it since there is no honour nor integrity in this kind of thinking.
!) There is no logic in making miserable, sweeping generalizations about an entire religion (Islam) or race (Arab). It is exactly what Hitler did against the Jewish "nation" (another fallacy, much like the exist existence of the Aryan nation). Nor is there intellectual integrity.
2) What you do when you say things like "you should put your thoughts in better order if you wish to be taken seriously. If it is affecting your ability to hold a job or interact with others, you should get professional help.", or "How can you oppose me on the 'Does Islam promote violence' thread and mouth these sentiments here? Have you NO intellectual integrity? Do you believe ANYTHING you say, or do you just like to be inflammatory?" is called "ad hominem". You attempt to discredit what I am saying (which is that you're making sweeping generalizations and you are FAULTY for doing so) by attacking my character.
That's not exactly having intellectual integrity.
3) You use only facts that support your argument and ignore evidence that does not. Just like in this discussion, the fact that Israel sealed off the Gaza strip is ignored. To acknowledge that such an act was wrong would be acknowledge that Israel is capable of actions which deserve a response. This does not mean that rocket fire is the correct response. However, it means that the rocket fire was not done out of spite. That two wrongs do not make a right is not what you, nor anyone else should take away from this, though. One wrong action does not justify another. You and RnB (for short and because it's cool) appear to be of the belief that if you happen to just not like the one side of the conflict (Palestine/Arab/Muslim), then your side (Israel/Jewish) can do no wrong.
4) You say that most Muslims may be peaceful. BUT. But for the ones that aren't. Some followers of Islam are violent, therefore Islam causes violence.. Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.
5) You accuse your opponent of doing the very thing that you are doing when you say things like "Do you believe ANYTHING you say, or do you like to be inflammatory?" You brought another discussion into this one and accuse Me of being inflammatory. Hmm..
I have nothing left to say to you. Again, there is no point. There is no reasoning against an unreasonable dislike - I won't go so far as to say hatred (at least not on your part). Israel could line up children against a wall and shoot them and you would find a way to justify the action as long as they were Muslim children.
I'm done. So repond how you want to... I won't waste a single sentence more on you because you have nothing that is worth even reading. The only value your posts, and RnB's posts serve is to illuminate just how deep rooted the very real bias against Arabs and Islam really is.
http://www.opposingviews.com/comments/are-you-at-all-interested-in-the-thread-of-this-disccusion
I think it will clear you have been caught out being hypocritical. And now you are gathering your shredded dignity and pretending you have made some point.
I invited you to order your thoughts earlier because it avoids this type of embarrassment. All the dust you throw in the air is amusing - though difficult to read coherently - but meaningless. You use a number of rhetorical devices to try and confuse the issues. For example, I have never opined on the Gaza crisis here - so anything you have imputed to me must be your own fantasy. You lump me in with some one I have never met or responded to. You put up straw men just so you have something to knock down.
You go to the trouble of using Latin, but I am less pretentious and prefer English. I also prefer the statistical version, correlation is not causation. But then I never said it was. Rather, I cited numerous examples of where Islamic, faith-based organizations promote and actively engage in violence, terrorism, and murder that they justify as Islamic. You admitted as much when spoke of schools earlier.
Against what is admitted to be the promotion of violence by many Muslims, where are the examples of Islam promoting peace? It cannot be that some Muslims lead peaceful lives - many people of different or no faith do as much. If Islam doesn't promote violence in the aggregate, there must be offsets to the clear examples of where it does.
I find very few. Every day chronicles Taliban or Sunni/Shiaa violence where Muslims threaten and kill other Muslims. Examples of Muslim violence against other societies have certainly been far too often and too costly in property and lives to ignore. Where are the counter-examples? Where is the ongoing effort from either to top or the bottom to cast out offenders, promote tolerance, and reduce violence? Muslims cannot muster one tenth the numbers who protested a few cartoons to lower its own destructive impulses.
BTW, I never mentioned Arabs specifically either. That is another of your rhetorical fantasies. To the contrary, I have been careful to include Iran, Australia, Indonesia, Great Britain, etc in my examples. To bring race into a theological discussion would be to introduce an irrelevancy. That is your forte rather than mine.
My generalization that Islam promotes violence is sweeping. But then the scope of Muslim violence against other Muslims and other societies is world-wide. It is undeniable that it has caused an immense amount of destruction. It is not enough to say that many Muslims are peaceful. Most Christians in the Middle Ages never burned a witch, tormented a Jew, or went on a crusade. But neither did they speak out against those acts, or demand tolerance.
If Muslims wish their faith to be a force for peace rather than violence, that is exactly what they have to do. That is exactly what other faiths and organizations do when presented with the same problem.
So take your shreds and walk away. You aren't fooling anyone other than yourself, and perhaps not even that. My recommendation remains: organize your thought, employ reason rather than rhetoric, less emotion and more logic.
Responding to SocialistBetty,
1)
You are absolutely right about the religio-racism involved in the creation of Israel. However, you are wrong in applying today's Western thinking and values to those of the time of Israel's creation. Most of the World remains religio-racist... After all, wasn't that the only motivation the Palestinians had in creating a military Division to join with Hitler... namely for the purpose of killing Jews.
Collectivism/Socialism sees people as part of a mass in which no particular individual is important except in so far as he works for that mass. The creation of Israel is _just another expression_ of that same thinking. However, in spite of enormous persecution, even from Western countries(!) Jews do not practice genocide or war, except in self-defense. It was, by the logic of the time, a *collective* Justice to the Jews to give them a 'safe-house' in the form of their own nation.
(A religious homeland was chosen, but they would have been better off with a piece of Western lands; Israel should have been a part of West Germany, where they would have found post-war peace. Obviously what I outlined would not result in thousands of years fighting, unless you believe all Jews _should_ be killed off, or become Muslims... which is the ONLY thing the Muslims will settle for. Keep in mind, they want YOU too!
2)
Again you are absolutely right, and wrong too. The Germans and Italians had no right to any land, but what would you do with millions and millions of those two *race* groups, having completely defeated their plan for taking over Europe or more ... perhaps force them to other nations, & leave the lands they had vacant??
3)
It is hard to say where your sarcasm ends, and logic begins. The Israelis may make mistakes, but the mistakes are *not* typical of Israeli policy. In contrast, the terrorist acts and RPG launchings by the Palestinians truly are their policy. Keep in mind that the Palestinians, given the chance to vote, chose the terrorist groups, Hamas, as their leaders. They knew *full well* that the semi-respectable appearing Hamas candidates were directly linked, in intent and name, to Hamas.
4)
You say Israeli is "gracious and beneficial, but only within its own borders". But so it should be. Why does it have any obligation to others, unless it subscribed to Collectivist/Socialist ideals? The fact is that it *does*, mistakenly, subscribe to that false moral system in some degree, because of the ubiquitous false morality of altruism (which is their religious morality, and which also underpins Collectivism). Israel attempts to provide suffering Palestinians, even though the latter voted for Hamas, with all sorts of generous aid. In fact they did so as recently as Jan. 2nd, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAfbLZgnIpI ! How can you ignore Hamas's open statements that it will not rest until Israel is eliminated, and the fact that their 'humanitarian' work is solely to maintain support of Palestinians? I suggest that is dishonest evasion of the former unrelenting principle: they only care about Palestinian lives if it serves as public relations... the deception over which you have fallen.
5)
Again you misinterpret: the Palestinians/Hamas have *no reason* to launch RPGs at random targets, except religio-racism. As for the Gaza crossing, the Israelis open it when Hamas reduces its RPG attacks, and closes it when Hamas increases its RPG attacks. What is the message, that neither you nor Hamas, are reading? As for not even allowing food, see the above link showing huge bags of grains being trucked into unjustly named Palestinian 'territory'.
Cont'd...
Why is it that Israel is always the poor, innocent vistim? Through the ages this has been portrayed. I am sorry but Israel currently runs the U.S. and only whe our government grows some big ones and tells Israel to SIT DOWN and SHUT UP and LISTEN , might there be peace.
The order by which my comments are produced seems to depend on the way in which the administration of this site evaluates them. My comments are not always in the order presented.
Responding to SocialistBetty,
1)
You are absolutely right about the religio-racism involved in the creation of Israel. However, you are wrong in applying today's Western thinking and values to those of the time of Israel's creation. Most of the World remains religio-racist... After all, wasn't that the only motivation the Palestinians had in creating a military Division to join with Hitler... namely for the purpose of killing Jews.
Collectivism/Socialism sees people as part of a mass in which no particular individual is important except in so far as he works for that mass. The creation of Israel is _just another expression_ of that same thinking. However, in spite of enormous persecution, even from Western countries(!) Jews do not practice genocide or war, except in self-defense. It was, by the logic of the time, a *collective* Justice to the Jews to give them a 'safe-house' in the form of their own nation.
(A religious homeland was chosen, but they would have been better of
6)
Israel turned its "matchbox" sized lands into remarkably fertile and profitable lands. The billions of dollars of aid —$2.1 million a *week* from the U.S. alone in 2007!!—that Palestinians have received, were not used to improve the lot of Palestinians, nor to establish the kind of society that creates wealth. Instead, it was largely funneled to the violent causes of Hamas... yes, much more aid was sent to Israel, but by mis-using their aid, the Palestinians showed that more aid only leads to more violence. I too would reduce their aid. The moral issue is not how much aid the two received, but what they stand for. Israel has no intention of taking over all Muslim lands outside its post WW2 borders (unless it wins them as a result of retaliation against military attacks by their Muslim neighbors).
7)
"Randomly shooting farmers"? Again, that is not the fundamental issue. In any warlike situation such things are perpetrated by either side. What is at stake is the overall intentions of the military, not the acts of the odd few individuals who go beyond the apparent logical bounds of war. Hamas, and Palestinians who support them, routinely engage in random killings... why don't you include that in your calculus? I suggest your postion, in making such a claim, is more anti-Semitic than pro-justice.
8)
My position is against all such 'Hitlerian' views. If Obama decided to eliminate the descendants of slave owners, I would be against that too. The fact is, Muslims' hatred of Jews, and all other kafirs goes much deeper than that. Learn that it is so. However, the fundamental point is that the Qur'an advocates lying to kafir (infidels to Allah), so the arguments they provide, and that you accept, are only presented for the purpose of deceiving you into acceding to their goals. And so you are.
9)
You quoted me: "The Palestinians, historically & by tenets of their primitive religious beliefs, are the initiators of violence in that region. They have no regard for peace, or even life —far more important to them is to see Jews & other kafir ( sensu an ingrate to Allah, an infidel) die".
And responded, sarcastically: "Spread around hate and fear... mmm, tasty. More please!"
What you apparently refuse to observe is that, some 70% of Islamic text advocates the elimination of the tribe of Israel and of the Kafir. S-Betty, you cannot escape this, it just is what _they_ are about.
10)
S-Betty wrote: "Oh. goody. Exactly what I wanted. More incomprehensible fear and hate mongering towards one particular group of people."
Your sarcasm is understood, but that sarcasm simply "blanks-out" all facts that refute your wishful view that the Palestinians hold some moral high ground. They do not. Morally, economically and politically they pursue a backwards and evil goal. You cannot change reality (of Islamic intention) by pretending it does not exist.
****
The fundamental at stake is the intent and game plan of the two sides. The Palestinians (and Muslims in general) are in the wrong, and severly so. Characters like SocialistBetty favor the loser, but in this case they rationalize their view on the altruistic basis that the underdog deserves support. That is just not valid in the present context.
Does anyone have a defense of the Palestinians that runs deeper than those offered by Socialist Betty? To be clear, I am absolutely against both the Israeli and Palestinian use of religio-racist beliefs in their conflict. That said, it remains that the Israelis do not initiate violence against their neighbors, save to eliminate those who initiate force against them. Further, mistakes are mistakes, and are not part of the primary and *proper* goal of having individuals live as peacefully and productively as possible. The Israelis are right, as evidenced by their productivity on a matchbook sized piece of land amongst a football field sized area that still lives as backwards as they did a millenium ago, —were it not for oil money obtained from oil fields discovered and developed by Americans and then 'nationalized' (stolen) by Arabs.
First, you make a crude and vulgar assumption about collectivism and socialism, and most likely Communism as well. His statement would be better applied to capitalism, as under these systems people are considered incredibly valuable and deserving of the basic necessities of life.
Second, he acts as if it is okay to support religio-racism simply because that's how some of the world is.
Third, he pretends as if Israel has not waged genocide and persecuted itself. There is nothing 'self-defense' about blocking aid to civilians, destroying and occupying unarmed civilian homes, and wanting to destroy an entire people.
Regardless of who the land belonged to historically, at the time it was taken it belonged to innocent people. These people were forced out of their homes for something they had not done. It's no wonder they're so racist against the Israelis.
"under these systems(collectivism and socialism, and most likely Communism) people are considered incredibly valuable and deserving of the basic necessities of life."
Really?
Cuba is well off.
So are the 500,000 chinese who have never used a toothbrush.
To top it off, The soviet Union was an economic success with everyone owning 2 cars and house with a white picket fence,oh yeah and a microwave as well. Those damn capitalists took it all away.
Proletariats UNITE!
"...under these systems [collectivism, socialism, communism] people are considered incredibly valuable and deserving of the basic necessities of life."
They were so valuable under communism that Stalin had 40-60 million of his own people killed and millions more imprisoned. So valuable under the Khmer Rouge that everyone in the country with more than a sixth grade education was rounded up and shot. So valuable that during the "great leap forward" in China more millions or tens of millions were similarly wiped out or imprisoned or at the least "re-educated."
So valuable that today in fascist China (which however it defines its "communism" today operates much more along the brutal state socialist model of a public/private autocracy) dissent is still put down severely and with unbridled violence. And son on.
Also the assertion that Israel is the party "wanting to destroy an entire people" is almost too laughable to discuss. Tiny Israel and its few millions has no capacity to destroy the sea of countries wanting to wipe it out surrounding it on all sides, and therefore no irrational desire to do so. It desperately seeks a way to reach an accommodation with its 100's of millions of sworn and implacable enemies.
Hamas does not exactly make phone calls to innocent people who may be at risk of becoming "collateral damage" when it's about to bomb a hospital, school or restaurant or give other warnings. It also doesn't locate its arsenals and weapons factories in religious buildings and densely populated neighborhoods.
As for "historically" this area is so tangled in changes of the humans occupying it, any and every case can be made for who "should" "own" it today. Including the Jerobomites who founded Jerusalem until the forbears of the current claimants pushed them off the pages of history.
So yes, consideration of roots and history, recent and ancient has relevance, but will never provide a soution, which must be found in the "facts on the ground" as they exist today.
The fact that you actually think Russia and China were Communist shows you don't know anything about it. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of Communism will realize how wrong you are.
Communism is inherently anarchist/democratic. It requires a classless, at least somewhat democratic society where everyone owns the means of production. This means the State does not own the production, the ruling class is not an elite that exploits the workers, and decisions are made through concensus.
Russia and China, however, are more National Socialist, which is a right-wing, fascist brand of socialism. Actual socialist countries, however, like Belgium (my favorite) go to a great deal of work to ensure that everyone has an education and isn't on the street.
I dont recall too many world changing innovations that belgium has created. Well besides the beer. Great beer.
Btw Capitalism doesn't exist either. The closest it came too was mid 19th century US. All that did was cause the industrial revolution and free a few slaves.
The US is and has been a mixed economy.
Dont knock something (Laissez-fair capitalism) until you try it.
You're kidding, right?
Just because there's state controls on capitalism, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In fact capitalism requires state controls, regulation, and assistance in order to work. Capitalism can't work unless there's a man with a baton willing to toss you in jail for not paying.
The U.S. is most definitely capitalist, as is the global economy.
Capitalism
n.
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
Mixed Economy
n.
Economic system in which both the private enterprise and a degree of state monopoly (usually in public services, defense, infrastructure, and basic industries) coexist. All modern economies are mixed where means of production are shared between the private and public sectors. Also called dual economy.
With the Alphabet soup of agencies controlling mostly every sector, which do we sound more like?