Shared Traits
While it goes without saying that many gay, lesbian, and bisexual people defy stereotype, it is undeniable that there are some connections that exist within our community. Similarities in physicality. Similarities in vocal pitch. Similarities in interests. Similarities as finely nuanced as affection for a certain campy TV show that few people watched or even remember, yet for which many gay men hold a special heart-place well into adulthood. There is a common bond that is real and important to recognize.
It is of course an overgeneralization to say that all gay men like the arts and all lesbians like to play pool. However, if you were to gather a diverse group of LGB people from varying locations, backgrounds, and viewpoints, it is simply a fact that you will see similitude in various areas.
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To this argument, because clearly it's one very close to my heart, I say what gives anyone the right to tell me how I feel or how I became the way I did? You can answer what you like, but in truth it doesn't. I was born gay . That's right, BORN. Ever since puberty hit me, I was purely attracted to males. Just like ever since a heterosexual hits puberty THEY were attracted purely to the opposite sex . I never had attraction to females...NEVER. So I don't care what kind of situations supposedly make me this way. because most of us DON'T want to be this way, since our lives are considerably up for debate, and ridicule. Anyway, I don't need anyone to tell me what I already know to be true, because I've been through it. I know what happened in my life. As far as stereotyping, even straight people have a certain group of people and activities they lean toward. The ones that accept them the most...they'd like theater and outrageous groups of people too, if those were the only ones whom accepted them for who they were BORN to be.
We are not born gay. We were born to MULTIPLY. It doesn't take a monkey to figure out that man and woman go together, and yet, THEY figure it out. We forget that society 's hormones and skewed thoughts make a huge attribute into this tragedy . We are a corrupt society that feels everything is all right. If it feels good, Do it! If nobody has morals, then how do we decide what is right and wrong? Absoutely not. We were born with a purpose, to claim Jesus as Lord. Although i accept my gay friends, I frown upon their life style. It is unacceptable in the eyes of our loving Lord who only wants you to live a happy life in Heaven. Please do not be decieved by the rest of our world. You were born with a purpose and have a soul mate. Just like it says in the bible , woman was made out of man. Even if you don't believe it, how come it says women came from the man's rib, because did you know that the males bottom rib is the ONLY BONE IN THE BODY that grows back?
I hope you can see the truth someday.
"We were born to MULTIPLY."
Except those who were born sterile? Or hermaphrodites...
"Even if you don't believe it, how come it says women came from the man's rib, because did you know that the males bottom rib is the ONLY BONE IN THE BODY that grows back? "
That is not exclusive to men, or to the lower ribs... ribs (if shortened) will grow back depending on their condition.
This shared traits argument is stating over and over that nature could play as much a role in defining homosexuality as much as genetics... therefore, this argument actually goes contrary to your proposed position.
Furthermore, coincidence does not entail causality.
You ask is someone born homosexual? I ask is someone born a pedophile? Is someone born a murderer? Is someone born a rapist?
The answer to all the above is NO. They are learned behaviours and there is sufficient evidence that those who have entered into the homosexual movement had been seduced by someone in their childhood...seduced/raped/molested by perverts and then now you have another person with tendencies toward this lifestyle. Isnt it time we started helping these folks out of the slimy pit of sexual hedonism into healthy relationships by at least starting by telling them the truth that you are NOT born homosexual, you choose that lifesytle, and then teach them to be responsible adults and not to solicit children and teens for sex! Just good advice if you ask me.
you can't really be arguing that because someone is born possibly with a certain body type or voice pitch that he has the "gay gene" no, how about the much more logical explanation that because people are born with certain things, they are exiled in society , and thus are more likely to turn to a gay lifestyle, becaue it is within such a life that they gain wider acceptance and have a better niche.
as that all the time. They tell girls that if they are tom-boyish they are lesbians, they tell boys if they even pick up a doll they are transgender, they tell kids that they arent allowed to even consider the games or toys or life of a typical opposite sex person without being branded homosexual. The homosexual movement is sick and as a parent Im pretty sick-n-tired of it! Kids love to play with mudpies, even boys and that does not make them sissy boys. Girls love to climb trees and play with remote control cars too and that does not make them lesbian. The children of today are being robbed of their childhood by homosexual activists. Shame on them!
Ironically it is the traditional culture that often disapproves of children doing things not associated with their gender... not the homosexual movement.
So I have to ask, knowing that I'll never get an answer, on what basis do you make the claim that the homosexual movement is telling " kids that they arent allowed to even consider the games or toys or life of a typical opposite sex person without being branded homosexual."
the same similarity's can be found throughout humanity. just because a guy has a high voice, doesn't make him gay. i don't think you can nit pick similarity's between gays, and call it genetics. i'm a 6 foot , white male. i am straight. does that mean that all 6 ft. white males are straight. no. no matter how you look at the world. there is a ying and a yang. there's a up and a down. there's a left and a right. there is man and woman. that's just the way it is. being gay is not in this balance. it's not the way it was intended. don't get me wrong. what people do is there decision. but, don't insult my intelligence by saying, "i was born this way."
On 3/2007 Deerfield High School, Deerfield Ill. told a classroom of highschoolers not to tell their parents that they where given homosexual education and handouts and were asked to sign a letter of confidentiality.
Officials at Deerfield High School in Deerfield, Ill., have ordered their 14-year-old freshman class into a "gay" indoctrination seminar, after having them sign a confidentiality agreement promising not to tell their parents.
7/31/07 - NEA begins massive drive to promote homosexuality in public schools
July 31, 2007
What same-sex "marriage" has done to Massachusetts
It's far worse than most people realize
by Brian Camenker
[Note: As the debate on this issue rages in states across the country, most people are unaware of what's really happened here. Get ready for an eye-opener.]
Anyone who thinks that same-sex “marriage” is a benign eccentricity which won’t affect the average person should consider what it has done in Massachusetts. It’s become a hammer to force the acceptance and normalization of homosexuality on everyone. And this train is moving fast. What has happened so far is only the beginning.End quote
Having witnessed the murder of a 17 yo boy being thrown from a train because he refused to be raped I say we stop this train and let the children off safely this time and say NO to this homosexual tolerance or else movement killing our children.
>>17 yo boy being thrown from a train because he refused to be raped
First of all, being gay is neither a mental disorder (since DSM-III) nor correlated with rape (or pedophilia for that matter - the majority of pedophiles are straight).
>>It’s become a hammer to force the acceptance and normalization of homosexuality on everyone.
This comment pinpoints the crucial importance of the entire discussion of 'nature/nurture/choice'. If being queer is perceived to be a mental disorder OR something the gay person 'chooses' to be, or could go to therapy to change, then it would be socially acceptable to stigmatize, punish, and generally discriminate against gay people. If being queer is innate (just like being left handed), then it doesn't make sense to punish or discriminate against gay people any more than it does to discriminate against left handed people, or ANY minority group (and everyone is a member of some minority group or the other).
Why is it so hard for Hope7 to accept as normal anyone who is different from themselves? I have always been mystified by the extreme emotion, even violence, engendered in certain people against homosexuals. It is what we call 'out of proportion'.
I am not offended by heterosexual people, even when I see them kiss on screen, or in R-rated movies make out. I don't even get squeamish when I see them hold hands. Do heterosexuals have more fragile sexual identities that cannot tolerate differences?
Live and let live is the only way to get along in a world with too much hatred and bigotry.
DellAnderson said: "Why is it so hard for Hope7 to accept as normal anyone who is different from themselves? I have always been mystified by the extreme emotion, even violence, engendered in certain people against homosexuals. It is what we call 'out of proportion'."
It is actually obeying the definition of "normal" and "weird" to say that people who are different from me are "weird". That is just the fact of the word. The environment I have grown up in dictates what I see as normal and weird. This is a layover (perhaps vestige) of our evolution .
A homosexual does not find heterosexuals as weird because the homosexual has grown up in an environment wherein heterosexuality is "normal", the opposite is not true.
The reason why we look down upon those whites who are racist or bigots is not because they find Blacks or Jews or Mexicans as weird, it is because they are unintelligent enough so as to be unable to deal with the differences and learn and move on. Be very precise about why it is wrong to be racist and you'll see what I mean; it is natural for a white person to think a black person weird and vice versa, it is socially acceptable to think them weird, it is not socially acceptable to act on that prima facia judgment.
Your analogy of homophobia to racism is well chosen and fills in some points I left out above. But still unexplained to me is the depth of the hatred and hostility or resentment that some hold against minority groups. I've never truly understood the 'out of proportion' emotion which is felt by some racists or homophobes. In other words, it appears to be something more than simply considering something or someone 'weird' and letting them be. The response in some appears to be more one of intense hatred or fear, sometimes resulting in violence against the 'weird'.
But I still think you make a good point in stressing the importance of environment . Not because environments of any size where there are no homosexuals (they are everywhere) but because our environment is a powerful factor in learning racism or homophobia. You imply that thought and behavior is learned, with which I agree and find hopeful because this means racism and homophobia can also be unlearned, usually by positive interactions with known members of a minority group.
>>A homosexual does not find heterosexuals as weird because the homosexual has grown up in an environment wherein heterosexuality is "normal", the opposite is not true.<<
As above, this depends on definition of 'normal' (open social acceptability in the current culture in which a person lives or grew up vs. biologically normal variant existing world wide as long as there have been humans).
In my experience people who have feelings for the same or opposite sex often wish they did not. After all many relationships start with irrefutable infatuation, followed by much pain as couples hurt each other yet cannot separate. There are men who just find other men more attractive even whilst they fear what their friends will say. They just dont find women attarctive enough. I have had clients who have pleaded with me to help them change their feelings, to no avail.
It does not seem likely that a person can be made to feel gay or heterosexual by external influences though people can follow trends unless their feelings stop them.
One thing is clear. The law , public opinion, persecution or persuasion are as unlikely to change sexual inclination as preventing drug or alcohol use. And there is enough crime to indicate the law has little influence over that, either.
I feel sorry that this is how you see relationships... This is not an insult but just an observation, there are people who are pathetic and see relationships this way; not all relationships are based on pain... since you are speaking from your experience, I feel sorry for you.
Hi, Visavismeyou, I was heterosexually married for 19 years and went through adulation, disillusionment and acceptance into love. (My wife died so I cannot testify as to my ability to have a longer term relationship.) Whist studying therapy and working with individuals and couples I realised, as I did with my own relationship, that many do not realise that disillusionment is just a phase to be worked through. My experience, as a therapist, caused me to start helping clients overcome the disillusionment stage. I have had some successes and failures, as might be expected. Such people may feel pathetic but amount to as much as 50% of people in relationships. This is a conservative estimate, as the number of divorces or unhappy marriages will testify People who are "gay" or "homosexual", as used to be the label, often think they are wrong, unnatural or weird. Thus they start off their relationships doubting their abilities to love or the rightness of their choice. These doubts add to the 50% chances of failure and may give rise to lack of lasting relationships between persons of the same sex, compared to heterosexual ones.
My argument, in the earlier section, is that the choice to be gay or not is one that is felt. Even if the person thinks it it wrong their feelings have more influence on their behaviour than their thoughts, including judgments. After all, it is considered quite normal for a man or woman to have strong attractions to each other. Circumstances and common sense may stop them but their urges are there and an appropriate relationship will allow them to meet the right person and go through the mature processing of adulation, disillusionment, acceptance and love.
Where an attracted couple are of the same sex they invariably take account of more internal and external judgments than heterosexual couples, as well as going through the mature processing of adulation, disillusionment, acceptance and love. In conclusion, the decision to feel "gay" or heterosexual is not one to be mitigated by legal , moral or persuasive argument. Or, to put it more crudely, I could not be persuaded to be sexually aroused by a male body on pain of death and my pretences would not deceive a male partner.
On a side note, it is very difficult to read this block of text.
But, all I can respond to in your statement is that no one is trying to persuade anyone of anything... Well, that is not true, some ignorant people are, but I'm not and sensible people are not. In the end, all I wanted to get across to you is that you really ought not see other people's relationships in the light that you are seeing them in. That is why I pity you, I honestly pity anyone who is so jaded...
And yes, this is stereotyping regardless of how you have written it off.
Again I see that your method of argument is to simply to make statements are made and we are expected to accept them simply based on the fact that you use a word like "undeniable" before you make the statement.
I guess I will simply refer to the next effeminate man I meet as "gay." Isn't this basically what you are saying?
I see similarities between people who grew up in the same neighborhood, between southerners and northerners, etc. So what's your point. How does this help your argument?
Still looking for some teeth to your side of the argument . . .
Thanks for your post.
I think gays give up too much when they use the genetic argument to deflect moral judgments of their lifestyle. Obviously, being gay isn't like deciding to eat ice cream. It arises out of a complex array of choices made as one grows up. It would be silly to claim that everything we like in life is the result of our DNA, and this applies to sexual preference as well.
It's equally silly to claim that homosexuality is immoral because it's not 'natural', especially if what's natural is based on animal behavior. We're humans. How much of what we do is natural by that standard? Is kissing natural?
My verdict would be that homosexuality is neither genetic nor immoral. It's one way for humans to live. There is a great deal of self destructive behavior that both homosexuals and heterosexuals indulge in with regard to their sex lives. That kind of behavior is wrong, but the preference itself is not.
Certainly, all that you like and dislike is the result of genetic predisposition, however, it is not a result of genetics alone. There is no true question of whether a behavior is genetic or environmentally induced - all human behavior is necessarily a product of both. Genetics establishes which choices are open to you given the context you find yourself in. Naturally, if you have a predisposition to sex with those of your same gender but there are only choices among those of the OPPOSITE gender, if you wish to have sex, you MUST choose among those available to you OR choose not to have sex at all. The same is true of heterosexuals. That you prefer sex with the opposite gender in no way implies you MUST engage in only that type or cannot choose otherwise given different circumstances.
That I am genetically predisposed for talent in drawing, painting, or carpentry doesn't imply I MUST engage those talents. So too, that I am genetically handicapped in my ability to understand and perform in mathematics or music or languages in no way implies I CAN'T at least try and enjoy those experiences. One has no choice in one's genetics, however, one always has choice in the expression of those predispositions.
That one is born with the sexual organs of a female in no way implies one must have sex with a male and vice versa. It also does not imply one cannot alter one's anatomy to live the life of a different gender or no specific gender at all. Indeed, there are persons who are conceived and born with precisely that non-polar form. My hair is predisposed to grow until the day I die, however, I choose to cut it from time to time. Genetics gave me brown hair, however, I can choose to die it red. Genetics gave me two legs of a specific length, however, I can choose to medically lengthen or shorten them or choose not to use them at all.
Genetics establishes the parameters for choice but it does not make the choices themselves.
I am sorry but this seems to be a weak argument for establishing that people are born gay. If you will read this article you find that people in social settings tend to try to be like the norm in that social setting. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/4240758/Mental-process-which-explains-why-we-follow-crowds-revealed.html
As the article says people within a group try to conform to that group. I don't see how shared traits does anything but say that they are conforming with the group norm for that activate.
Hmmmm, I did go read the article you put in your posting and still left going "huh?" Really I could see no real link that you were attempting to establish regarding gay people. Actually, this would give some credence to the fact that DESPITE the "norms" influence gay people remain gay. We may hide a little more, due to the uncertainty of those that are different from us. Not shame mind you, but uncertainty as many have been on the receiving end of violence, predjudice and judgements. Safety and survival a human instinct we all have.
I was born to straight parents, Christians, 7 kids and in SOUTH DAKOTA, definetly not my surroundings that influenced my sexuality. Although I guess on some level it was correct. I did try to hide, fake it and be "normal" and as a result suffered and made myself a victim. No more.
You seem to forget that gays are not raised by other gays. Most gay people grow up in a surrounding family and social structure made up primarily of straight individuals. They are, like other children, rewarded for exhibiting "gender-appropriate" behaviors and conforming to expected norms for the majority-straight population with which they are surrounding. Societal conformity would tend to make gay people straight, not the other way around.
And yet, the majority of gay people report having been "different" from their earliest memories. While some certainly conformed to gender norms, many, many did not. Why do you think so many of us faced tremendous teasing and harassment from our peers? Certainly not because we were "conforming" to the social group with which we were surrounded.