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Is Torture Ever Justified?

As newspapers and documentary films continue to discuss waterboarding and other controversial treatments of suspected terrorists, the debate over torture remains intense. Some insist that desperate times call for desperate measures, but others are baffled that such methods could exist in a civilized society. Is physical persuasion ever an appropriate means of interrogation?

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Intent and Just War Theory

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GOD SAVAGE US

We've become an arrogant war mongering nation led by Pres Bush. If I said ask our allies what they think of the US unilateral acts of war and torture, you would agree that our own allies think we are off the scale. IF WE ARE RIGHT IN WAR and TORTURE WHY ARE OUR ALLIES IN DISAGREEMENT? Oh, right, they're just as weak headed as the liberals in the US. We have become so arrogant our allies can't stand with us.

Were the WWII Japanese and Nazi terrorists any less so than the islamic fundamentalists of today?

- Blingo88 November 20, 2008 7:08AM

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- wrong
  
  I don't know where you've been but let's see. England,Ireland,Austrailia,Canada just to name a few have all sent troops along side ours. So unilateral acts? I'm sure our good ally friends are offended at that statement.
  
  - robbyjon November 21, 2008 3:08PM
  
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- I apologize for not reading any further
  
  but I really don't have to.
  
  "We've become an arrogant war mongering nation" Ahem....Become? Do you know US history?
  
  - sunshiner424 July 30, 2009 3:13PM
  
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Get off of the Blaming President Bush.

I get sick of everyone blaming Bush. I am not happy with everything he has done either, but no way could of he done all of the things he has been blamed for in 2 life times. You are brain washed but the main stream media.

There is justification for torture to save lives. I don't mean pulling fingernails out and such, but water boarding does not hurt physically. It causes the fear of death, which makes people talk. We will never win if we keep listening to lefty loons and so called social progressives.

Don;t worry it won't be long before the American people will wish Bush was back. Our enemies are laughing at us because we are a stupid and arrogant people and most are uninformed. We just elected a President by people who have no idea what is going on in the world and by a media who has an agenda of their own and it does not include caring about the American people.

- feeper November 21, 2008 5:09AM

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- Not so fast
  
  I agree with you on blaming Pres. Bush for everything. People should try to see things from a larger horizon. I have to admit though, my fellow country men have let me down when it comes to protecting civil liberties and the horrendous procedures for boarding a plane. Now everyone is a suspect and Americans think that is right? The most ironic part is that failing airline business is blamed on terrorism instead of bad management.
  But back on topic, there can never be a justification of torture. First, who are these "terrorists" that we think it's OK to treat inhumanely? Many of the younger readers probably won't know this, but Nelson Mandela and the ANC used to on our governments terrorists list. I find it hard to imagine anyone condoning waterboarding's use on Mandela and fellow ANC members who now make up the government.
  
  Feeper, you also mention win and I ask win what? Saddam Housein used to be our ally, that only changed during the George Bush (father) era. Saudia Arbia is anything but democratic and we don't attack them, so democracy is not a likely goal. They also have Islamic fundamentalists but we still do not attack. Why?
  I mention all this because we also have our own brand of religious fundamentalists, can we start waterboarding, or torturing them to prevent the next Jim Jones? Or how about the mormons, who have a loony sect attached to them? What about the McVeighs, who could we torture to prevent a like minded person from their next terrorist attack?
  You're right, Pres. G. W. bush isn't to blame for all these bad things but are his answers to the bad things we faced good enough to meet the challenge both domestically and internationally? I haven't seen any proof they are on both accounts.
  
  - mangueken November 22, 2008 4:31AM
  
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  - Torture
    
    Its all in what you think torture is. What little water boarding we did (3 times) saved thousands of lives and stop other attacks. Many we do not even know about. All said and done Bush has done a good job of protecting us. You may not like him but give credit where credit is due.
    
    - feeper November 25, 2008 5:28AM
    
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    - I would like...
      
      to give Bush credit but I can't get pass the immorality of torture. You also seem (I may not be right about this) to be saying that a little bit "evil" is justifiable to stop a bigger "evil". So my question isn't really about Pres. Bush at all, it's about the people who think a little "evil" is ok and how do we define this acceptable level of "evil" on our part? What would be the maximum amount of torture we would allow? Does the level of acceptable amounts of torture go up in proportion to the number of lives we are supposedly saving?
      It seems much more logically consistent to say that we don't torture any one for any reason and to start holding our government responsible for its policies abroad that make us the target of terrorist attacks. Why do we never question our own actions abroad? And by asking this I am not at all condoning terrorist attacks, I think they are tactically and strategically useless. All I'm asking is are there things we could do different that would at least undercut some of the arguments of these Middle-Eastern terrorists? And we would have to ask ourselves many self-reflecting questions for each type of terrorist because Mandela wasn't an Islamic fundamentalist, the IRA isn't Islamic, the Basques aren't Islamic; I don't even remember what reasons Timothy McVeigh gave for blowing up the Federal building, but I'm pretty sure they didn't come from the Koran.
      I am very skeptical about the "congratulations" given Pres. Bush for no more terrorists attacks. I mean, we should be thankful in the same sense for every previous president where attacks didn't happen. I also don't put more blame on him for them happening. Terror by definition scares us because it does things we don't expect another human to do against us.
      I don't accept the premise that we are allowed to do something bad, especially when we already set the precedent of condemning others for it. It's a good thing that we, as a world, population have come to the conclusion that torture is illegal and immoral. With a little more time maybe we can come to the same conclusion about war itself.
      
      - mangueken November 26, 2008 7:24AM
      
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      - Torture
        
        First of all we haven't established the fact that water boarding is torture. Secondly under Bill Clinton we had 11 or 13, I can't remember which, attacks. Several under Reagon. None under Bush after 9/11.
        
        If one person had a machine gun and he was mowing down people left and right, would you let it happen or would you try to do something about it. Would you kill him if you had a gun.
        
        If you came across someone stabbing another person would you shoot him if you had a gun or let it happen.
        
        I would kill someone in a minute who was trying to kill someone else. It's justified.
        
        I would kill someone in a minute who was going to kill someone else. It's justified.
        
        These people are cowards that murdered innocent people. We do not treat them the same as good people.
        
        We are not the targets of terrorist because of any reputation we have abroad. The hate us because we are mostly Christians and the fact that we protect and are friends with Israel. We have been hated for hundreds of years. They also hate us because they think we are infidels.
        
        - feeper November 26, 2008 4:37PM
        
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        First...
        
        water boarding is torture. Japanese officers were tried in the international war courts our government was involved with after WWII for using water boarding.
        
        General Straw Man Rebuttals
        
        yes, if I could stop a man with a machine gun from killing people I would.
        
        I'm not sure what that has to do with torture. who would you torture to find out who is capable of walking into a shopping mall and opening fire on innocent people?
        
        I look for logical consistency. If we treat other people as bad as we are treated are we better? Or how much "evil" are we permitted to do to stop "evil"?
        
        "We are not the targets of terrorist because of any reputation we have abroad. The hate us because we are mostly Christians and the fact that we protect and are friends with Israel. We have been hated for hundreds of years. They also hate us because they think we are infidels."
        
        I'll just be very frank and clear. What you wrote is wrong. It's not supported by facts. Just look up the history of our involvement in the Middle - East, first you'll see that it pretty much started after WWII, which contradicts your hundreds of years argument, but you will also note the striking coincidence with which we were helping countries like Britain and France try to recover some kind of control over their former colonies. I think our reputation abroad has much more to do with things than the fact that you are Christian.
        
        By the way, you also totally avoided answering or discussing the point I made about all the types of terrorists, who in the majority aren't Muslim.
        
        - mangueken November 26, 2008 8:39PM
        
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        torture
        
        I'm not sure what that has to do with torture. who would you torture to find out who is capable of walking into a shopping mall and opening fire on innocent people?
        
        It has to do with the question, Would you do whatever it takes to save lives. These people want to kill anybody who does not believe they way they do. They say we are infidels. They have been calling us that for years. Long before George Bush was even born. I don't think you understand the root of these people beliefs.
        
        By the way, you also totally avoided answering or discussing the point I made about all the types of terrorists, who in the majority aren't Muslim.
        
        I think most of the terrorist are Muslim. Who else are you talking about. We are fighting Al queda and the Taliban and they are Muslim. Their type of religion comes with a political element which makes them ever more dangerous.
        
        By the way I am a history buff. I don't know everything and I am not expert but it's a hobby. Most of history that is written today and within the last 50 years is distorted and bias toward a socialist agenda. It's hard to sift through the lies. Our kids are being lied to at our public schools and colleges.
        
        If you try hard enough you can find a lot of things we have done wrong, with almost every president, but do not forget all of the good we've done as well.
        
        Anyway, torture is causing physical pain. Water boarding causes fear of death.
        
        - feeper November 29, 2008 9:34AM
        
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        Early History of Muslim Conflict
        
        quote Just look up the history of our involvement in the Middle - East, first you'll see that it pretty much started after WWII, which contradicts your hundreds of years argument, end quote
        
        The hundreds years argument is valid as far as conflict with Muslims.
        
        Thomas Jefferson ordered the first U.S. warships into battle with Muslims in 1801 against Pasha of Tripoli.
        
        - saga January 10, 2009 10:34PM
        
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- Even Bush admits
  
  That most of his and Cheney,s statements linking Hussien and Ben Laden together were lies. In fact if you read about the Carlyle Co (Defense contractors) Bush and Ben Laden were business partners.
  You should also know that GW Bush grandfather Prescott Bush made a fortune doing business with Hitler during WW2. He and a business partner sold Hitler steel, I wonder how much of it came back as armor on the battlefield.
  Please do not believe me and read it for yourself, I think you might be surprised.
  
  - oneoldman August 29, 2009 8:04PM
  
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Is it or isnt it ever justified

IS Torture ever justified? That’s the question isn’t I think that in some cases that torture is justified such as terrorists or other criminals. I also believe that if a terrorist or criminals have done something bad enough that it’s a life or death situation for other people I would most likely go for torture to save the lives of others. But I don’t believe in torturing people just to be doing it though

- hogcrazy February 5, 2009 9:06AM

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Torture is never justified, under any conditions.

Someone once said "An eye for an eye, everyone would be blind". Torture does not seem to be an ineffective way of obtaining information, but it also does not seem to be the right way to go about things. If our country started stooping to low levels of those who torture we loose all credibility among nations that are already at odds with us. Thus this fuels more to become involved in terrorist plots against us. America is founded on values and principals, and when we start setting aside these liberties that all have, we are setting aside what America is essentially.

- SConn February 9, 2009 7:59PM

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- doing the right thing
  
  I understand the fact of eye for a eye but are we as America stooping to all new lows. I dont think we really are, I think that we're doing what we need to obtain the vital info that we need. Since we are in a war whether anyone thinks so or not we are and I would rather our goverment do what needs to be done then have more americans in danger than whats necessary.
  
  - hogcrazy February 11, 2009 9:17AM
  
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- Well then,
  
  Suggest an alternative and better way to obtain information. You at least concede that torture is sometimes effective. Is asking politely just as effective? Paying them off? mmmm no.
  
  - sunshiner424 July 30, 2009 3:22PM
  
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  - Lie to me.
    
    Have you ever seen the tv show Lie to me? Allowing for a certain amount of exaggeration I wonder if training in body language would help in interrogations.
    
    - mike1948 July 31, 2009 2:16PM
    
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    - Hmmm
      
      It probably could help. Maybe a lot. Still may not be as effective, but I think it's worth trying.
      
      - sunshiner424 July 31, 2009 2:54PM
      
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  - An Alternative
    
    The US has the best physiologic interrogators in the world. We should use them. The answers they get will be the truth. They work in the subjects brain and those guys are the best there are.
    
    - oneoldman August 29, 2009 8:12PM
    
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this makes sense

In times throughout history there have been many forms of torture that should not in any way be justified. The intent of this torture however has usually been to humiliate the person or to give the person in power even more power. These reasons for torture are in no way justifiable. I do believe however that if a criminal or a POW has information that is needed for the survival of people or a city, then torture might be the only way to force the information that is needed out of the person. There should be strict guidelines followed however to figure out whether torture is needed in the situation or not.

- tator February 17, 2009 2:07PM

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- i agree
  
  You seem to have hit the nail on the head. Torture is a very iffy situation but can be justified if the conditions are right.
  
  - Tannerj February 19, 2009 9:01PM
  
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Regarding the listed topic...

I'm going to be a bit silly and address the actual topic referred to in this article. In other words, I'm going to analyze the idea of Intent and Just War alone. Not morality, which there are plenty of other articles on (which are pretty comment-free now). Not history and religion. Just the theory here.

The "Intent" idea seems plausible to me. We aren't torturing because we want to, or at least I sure hope we aren't. Understandably, torture isn't a nice thing. But if there is a clear reason for doing so, and the consequences of not acting outweigh the consequences for acting, then I'm fine with that. Those sick persons who do torture people just for the fun of it, as far as I'm concerned, should be tried as war criminals and handily tossed out of the army. I don't deny that such incidences have occurred (malicious torture), but I think we can all agree that it is inexcusable and should never happen again.

The Just War theory is interesting, though I think the author should note that there are five criteria, not four (the fifth was that the war is defensive). In this case, however, a gray area emerges. A VERY gray area. Can a War on Terror be considered defensive? That's a semantics argument. The second qualifier, in response to grave and lasting damages, is again semantics. Grave, yes, but as far as lasting, grudges can be held for a long time. What exactly are we talking about? The third condition I'll call the "last resort" condition, and quite frankly I don't ever think that anything war-related should receive the title "last resort." It's questionable. The last two I am in total agreement with, though. If it's sure to get the desired results, and taking action is better than not taking action, absolutely. But again, this cannot be applied across the board in a single war. Individual circumstances must be considered separately.

In short, the theory here has some good points and some legalese points that could use elaboration. I support torture in certain, specific circumstances for certain, specific reasons. If there's no pressing, overly beneficial reason to, though, it shouldn't be done.

- Invalid Screen Name February 28, 2009 9:22AM

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What bugs me

about this idea is that, as a country, we've executed people for using these techniques on our people in the past. Literally. We killed people for waterboarding US Soldiers. How is it fair to turn around and say "Now it's okay, now it's valid".

- quantummechanik June 29, 2009 9:52PM

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- You are right
  
  But few will remember the Nuremberg Trials. Thank you for sharing a bit of knowledge with us.
  
  - oneoldman August 29, 2009 8:17PM
  
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