ID Promises To Open Up New Avenues of Scientific Research
ID has scientific merit because it promises to open up new avenues of scientific research and to encourage academic freedom for minority, dissenting scientific viewpoints.
In our opening statements, my co-participants and I have argued that intelligent design (ID) is a relatively new scientific theory that holds scientific, legal, and educational merit.
While ID may be a minority scientific view, there is no doubt that its proponents have made their case to the scientific community in mainstream scientific venues and that their views deserve the protection of academic freedom: Not only do ID proponents hold tenured positions at respected universities, but they have published their views in respected scientific venues. If one scrutinizes many of the footnotes I have cited in my six opening statements, they will find some examples of the peer-reviewed and / or prestigiously published pro-ID scientific works come from sources such as Cambridge University Press, MIT Press, Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, Michigan State University Press, Protein Science, Rivista di Biologia / Biology Forum, and Journal of Molecular Biology. As 85 scientists supporting academic freedom for ID wrote in their Kitzmiller amicus brief:
“Intelligent design, while admittedly a minority view, is currently being vigorously debated by scientists. For example, Cambridge University Press recently published a volume entitled ‘Debating Design,’ in which scientists on both sides of the issue stated their respective cases. Whether or not intelligent design is ultimately widely accepted as the most persuasive explanation for particular scientific phenomena, design theorists have formulated their theory based upon a scientific evaluation of the empirical evidence. The current formulation of intelligent design theory by its proponents, and its application to recent scientific discoveries, is still in its youth compared to many other scientific theories. For that very reason it is premature to conclude that one side has triumphed and the other has lost. Simply because one group of scientists favors one interpretation, we must not relegate the other side to a category of ‘non-scientists’ who are ineligible to state their case.”(1)
Indeed, despite its youth ID promises to open up new avenues of scientific research in fields such as:
• Biochemistry, where ID encourages scientists to recognize and understand the origin of complex and specified information in proteins and DNA;
• Genetics, where ID encourages scientists to seek function for so-called “junk” DNA;
• Systematics, where ID encourages scientists to understand whether similarities between living species, including examples of extreme genetic “convergence,” are best explained by intelligent design or unguided Darwinian causes;
• Cell biology, where ID encourages scientists to view the cell as “designed structures rather than accidental by-products of neo-Darwinian evolution” (2) which can allow them to better understand the workings of molecular machines;
• Systems biology, where ID encourages biologists to look at various biological systems as integrated components of larger systems that are designed to work together in a top-down, coordinated fashion;
• Animal biology, where ID encourage scientists to seek function for allegedly “vestigial” organs, structures, or systems;
• Bioinformatics, where ID encourages scientists to look for new layers of information and functional language embedded in the genetic codes, as well as other codes within biology;
• Information theory, where ID encourages scientists to understand where intelligent causes are superior to natural causes in producing certain types of information;
• Paleontology, where ID encourages scientists to understand how the irreducibly complex nature of biological systems can predict punctuated change and stasis throughout the history of life;
• Physics and Cosmology, where ID encourages scientists to investigate and discover more instances of fine-tuning of the laws of physics and properties of our universe, that uniquely allow for the existence of advanced forms of life.
Despite the fact that ID holds strong promise in many scientific fields, like many dissenting minority scientific viewpoints, ID faces much political opposition in the academy. Those who support ID must be very careful because open support for ID can be highly damaging to a scientist’s career. Some Darwinists in the scientific community are intolerant or outright hostile toward scientists who support ID. This is not the fault of ID, of course. It is the fault of those Darwinists who refuse to grant academic freedom to those who disagree with them.
Science: A Wonderful but Unavoidably Human Enterprise
Before going any further, I must state that I am a huge fan of the power of science. I have many fond memories of watching the sun rise from the laboratory where I did my masters thesis. There is absolutely no doubt that science has contributed immeasurably to the betterment of humankind. Besides that, science is interesting, fun, and cool, and in my experience most scientists—regardless of whether I agree with them on the issue of evolution—are great people.
While science is a wonderful thing, it is unavoidably a human enterprise. Scientists may be great people, but they are still humans. And becoming a scientist does not change one’s human nature. Those who live under the naivety that scientists are always objective, or are always granted the academic freedom to follow the evidence wherever it leads, should remember that not too long ago, the famous historian of science Thomas Kuhn explained that scientists are often intolerant of ideas that challenge the reigning paradigms:
“No part of the aim of normal science is to call forth new sorts of phenomena; indeed those that will not fit the box are often not seen at all. Nor do scientists normally aim to invent new theories, and they are often intolerant of those invented by others.”(3)
As a new theory that challenges the reigning paradigm of neo-Darwinian evolution, ID faces this very type of intolerance in the academy. A few examples will suffice.
Evidence of Intolerance Part 1: Press Releases Against IDeas
When scientific organizations issue press releases or bold proclamations against ideas, it’s clear that politics, rather than science, is driving their behavior. This is in fact precisely how leading scientific organizations have responded to ID.
In 2008, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences (NAS) issued a statement declaring that ID “is not supported by scientific evidence” and “[t]here is no scientific controversy about the basic facts of evolution,” because evolution is “so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter” it.(4) In 2002, the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) adopted a resolution and issued a press release declaring that the "ID movement has failed to offer credible scientific evidence to support their claim."(5) The resolution also “calls upon” AAAS members “to understand ... the inappropriateness of 'intelligent design theory' as subject matter for science education" and "encourages its affiliated societies to endorse this resolution."(6)
Opponents of ID may quote these blanket statements as if they demonstrate that ID has been rejected by the scientific community. Rather, what these statements actually document is the fact that much of the opposition to ID from the scientific community is not scientific in nature, but political, and is based upon fundamental misunderstandings and misrepresentations of ID. After all, since when do leading scientific organizations issue press releases and edicts against an idea? Indeed, Discovery Institute senior fellow John West found that AAAS “board members voted to brand intelligent design as unscientific without actually reading for themselves the academic books and articles by scientists proposing the theory.”(7) Similarly, the NAS’s statements against ID were based upon fundamental misrepresentations of the claims of ID.(8)
Additionally, consider the NAS's statement that ID “is not supported by scientific evidence” and “[t]here is no scientific controversy about the basic facts of evolution.” Or consider the AAAS’s statement that its members should “understand the inappropriateness of ‘intelligent design theory.’” Now imagine you are a biologist who supports ID and holds fundamental doubts about Darwinism, but you see the two most influential science organizations in the U.S. asserting that your views are not only wrong, but perhaps don’t even exist. Does that make you feel you have the academic freedom to freely to express your views in the laboratory, the classroom, or in scientific journals? I think not.
Evidence of Intolerance Part 2: Statements and Actions by Anti-ID Groups and Educators
If you still have doubts that there is intolerance towards ID in the academy, ask yourself the following question: Would pro-ID scientists, scholars, and students feel open and free to publicly support ID in classrooms, laboratories, and journal publications at the institutions where the following incidents took place?
• At the University of Idaho, where the president instituted a campus-wide classroom speech-code, where “evolution” was “the only curriculum that is appropriate”(9) for science classes and the head of the biochemistry department said “We’ve been careful to make sure people aren’t going into the classroom saying, you’ve gotta’ think about ‘intelligent design’”?(10)
• At Cornell University, where the interim president devoted a state of the university address “to denounce ‘intelligent design,’ arguing that it has no place in science classrooms and calling on faculty members in a range of disciplines” to similarly attack ID?(11)
• At the University of California at San Diego, where its website stated that “all first quarter freshmen” were “required to attend” a lecture at the campus’s sports arena given by an anti-ID activist titled, “Why the Judge Ruled Intelligent Design Creationism Out of Science”?(12)
• At the University of Toronto, where an influential professor of biochemistry and leading textbook author publicly stated that students who support ID “should never have admitted” and a university should “just flunk the lot of them and make room for smart students”?(13)
• At Southern Methodist University, where biology faculty taught a course attacking ID whose website stated, “You don't have to teach both sides of a debate if one side is a load of crap”?(14)
• At Wesleyan College, where a Biology 101 faculty lecturer endorsed teaching students “inaccuracies” that are "wrong" if that enables educators to "gain their trust" and "help them accept evolution"?(15)
• At James Madison University where a mathematics faculty member praised a university who denied tenure to a pro-ID scientist saying, "it is perfectly appropriate to deny tenure to someone you reasonably believe is going to devote much of his career to the professional advocacy of pseudoscience."(16)
• At the Council of Europe, the leading European human rights organization, where it adopted a resolution calling ID “a threat to human rights”?(17)
• At Iowa State University, where over 120 faculty members signed a petition denouncing ID and calling on “all faculty members to ... reject efforts to portray Intelligent Design as science”?(18)
• At Ohio State University, where three top biology professors derailed a doctoral student’s thesis defense by writing a letter stating “there are no valid scientific data challenging macroevolution” and therefore the student’s teaching about problems with neo-Darwinism was “unethical” and “deliberate miseducation”? (19)
• At the University of Minnesota Morris where a biologist who runs the most popular science blog on the internet (20) commented about a pro-ID biologist who lost her job saying “Heck yeah—[she] should have been fired,”(21) and demanded “the public firing and humiliation of some teachers” who support ID?(22)
These are just a few of many examples that sadly show that forces within academia seek to hinder or harm the careers of scientists and students who publicly support ID or doubt neo-Darwinian evolution. As someone who holds science in great regard, I feel that this trend is most unfortunate, because the real loser here is the prestige, authority, integrity, and influence of the scientific community.
Does ID Deserve this Intolerance?
As seen in some of the example above, Darwinists often attempt to justify their intolerance towards ID by arguing that ID proponents deserve the persecution they have received because ID is not science. Not only does such a reply concede my point that ID faces intolerance, but it denies the very principles underlying academic freedom.
Academic freedom does not just mean that you have the freedom to agree with the majority viewpoint. It also means that scientists who hold legitimate scientific views deserve to be heard even if their views differ from the consensus. As noted earlier, ID proponents have made their case in respectable scientific venues, and ID opens up new lines of scientific research that should cause those interested in the progress of science to allow scientists to freely investigate and advocate ID. Scientists who dispute ID’s claims have every right to do so. But pro-ID scientists deserve to make their case to the scientific community, unhindered by biases and prejudices that stifle scientific advance.
ID holds merit because the acceptance of ID will not only encourage new avenues of scientific research, but ID’s advance will help restore academic freedom to the scientific community for legitimate minority, dissenting scientific viewpoints. As 85 scientists wrote to Judge Jones in an amicus brief during the Kitzmiller v. Dover case:
“The advance of scientific knowledge depends on uninhibited, robust investigation seeking the best explanation. Over time, new evidence and new perspectives on existing evidence may require the modification of existing theories or even the abandonment of previously accepted theories that have lost their explanatory power. The method of identifying intelligent causes is well established in many scientific fields. … [T]he hypothesis of intelligent design can be an appropriate topic for discussion in a curriculum that addresses biological origins as well as for investigation in the laboratory. Efforts to ban the scientific theory of intelligent design from the classroom, whether by a narrow definition of science or by a discriminatory attack on the personal motives of the scientists conducting scientific research into intelligent design, should be rejected by the Court.”(23)
While Judge Jones did not accept the advice of these 85 scientists, hopefully those who are concerned about recent offenses to academic freedom within the scientific community will pay heed to the contributions that ID can make in this arena. Qualified scientists, educators, and students who openly doubt Darwin often face persecution. Whether or not you agree with ID, everyone should support academic freedom for dissenting and minority scientific viewpoints like ID, because intellectual freedom is vital to the progress of science, a healthy democracy, and hopefully in the end, the betterment of humankind.

So your argument is, by pushing scientists to find more junk DNA (it is, in fact, useless to the organism,) vestigial limbs (my tailbone does nothing and has no purpose, and I could have it removed with no damage to my functioning,) and other disproofs of Intelligent Design, ID serves the purpose of annoying scientists into progress?
Couldn't you just advance the cause of science by doing experiments and recording data?
"It also means that scientists who hold legitimate scientific views deserve to be heard even if their views differ from the consensus."
You claim that these "scientists" hold legitimate scientific views - but that is the very topic under contention. It would seem that you claim that they deserve to be heard and have not been heard - but that is also under dispute. I assert that they have been heard and their arguments have been refuted and thus they are legitimately ignored until they come up with some actual scientific evidence and arguments.
"ID holds merit because the acceptance of ID will not only encourage new avenues of scientific research,"
Well, it has not happened in the last 20 years - why should there be the slightest chance that this non-scientific nonsense will "encourage" "new avenues" of scientific research in the future? And, if this is the actual goal of "intelligent design", why is there such an emphasis on trying to get this nonsense introduced into the public high school classroom?
"With about 70 billion stars..."
This number seems to be in error by a factor of a trillion or so. What fool wants credit for this sentence? :-)
" ... 100 million life forms (at least here on Earth),"
So what? 3 billion years of evolution is a loooong time.
"... the universe is a stunningly complex place."
Nonsense. The universe that we can see so far is quite simple. It's only the evolved life forms on this Earth that appear to be complex. It is amazing that evolving DNA with only 4 components can produce such a complexity of life, but it obviously has, so there's no need to claim that this is "stunning". And even if it was "stunning", that is a meaningless adjective with respect to the discussion of the nonsense that is "intelligent design".
"I assert that they have been heard and their arguments have been refuted and thus they are legitimately ignored until they come up with some actual scientific evidence and arguments."
At least Luskin actually provide something to back up his "asserts."
"Well, it has not happened in the last 20 years - why should there be the slightest chance that this non-scientific nonsense will "encourage" "new avenues" of scientific research in the future?"
Actually..............
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/06/more_similarities_between_flag.html
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/01/biology_replaces_technology_as.html
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/10/video_molecular_machines_and_t.html
....so therefore there is pretty good reason to assume that it will.
"And, if this is the actual goal of " intelligent design ", why is there such an emphasis on trying to get this nonsense introduced into the public high school classroom?"
Ummm, I'm pretty sure if the goal of ID is to encourage new avenues of research (which you say is the goal of ID), then it definitely has it's place in the classroom.
"This number seems to be in error by a factor of a trillion or so. What fool wants credit for this sentence? :-)"
Where in the article you're commenting on does it use that value?
"So what? 3 billion years of evolution is a loooong time."
Yeah, though the debate is whether it's long enough.
"The universe that we can see so far is quite simple."
Yes, in a sense. Though no one can argue the laws have no structure.
"It's only the evolved life forms on this Earth that appear to be complex."
Not to mention the earth which sustains them.
"It is amazing that evolving DNA with only 4 components can produce such a complexity of life, but it obviously has, so there's no need to claim that this is "stunning"."
If it didn't happen by unguided forces, then yes it is.
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/09/leading_origin_of_life_researc.html
"And even if it was "stunning", that is a meaningless adjective with respect to the discussion of the nonsense that is "intelligent design"."
What "nonsense?"
If there's something on " evolution news", it's irrelevant to "intelligent design" and/or distorted beyond all scientific recognition.
"the flagellum resembles a machine designed by a human"
So what?
"But sometimes engineers find that biology itself is a superior replacement..."
So what?
"without supplying adequate sequential evidence"
No amount of "sequential evidence" would ever satisfy a creationist.
"I think genetic information more or less came out of nowhere by chance assemblages of short polymers."
Now that makes good scientific sense - "chance" was sufficient.
"Might I suggest that intelligent design is a better explanation?"
Might I suggest that your suggestion is without evidence or merit? It's just unfounded speculation.
"If there's something on " evolution news", it's irrelevant to "intelligent design" and/or distorted beyond all scientific recognition."
That sentence alone tells me you either need to get out more, or need to at least read what the blog is actually about. Or maybe I'm asking for too much. Then again, you did take the time to at least read SOME of the article, and you seem to have conceded that it is on the topic of ID.
"So what?"
Seems like you'd rather throw those words out to some of the statements in that article instead of actually refuting them. If biology leads to new design if it is viewed in that context, then ID obviously does encourage new avenues of research.
"No amount of "sequential evidence" would ever satisfy a creationist."
While I agree this is true for ID skeptics, I must ask: what do "creationists" have to do with this?
"Now that makes good scientific sense - "chance" was sufficient."
You do realize that your saying the millions of organized base pairs in the first cell just came out of nowhere right?
"Might I suggest that your suggestion is without evidence or merit? It's just unfounded speculation."
Ahem, might I suggest that your suggestion is without evidence or merit? It's just unfounded speculation.
"If biology leads to new design if it is viewed in that context,"
And it never has and never will. So, irrelevant nonsense.
"You do realize that your saying the millions of organized base pairs in the first cell just came out of nowhere right?"
Nope. Your ignorance is abysmal.
http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/11/exploring-the-o.html
"It's just unfounded speculation."
Nope - it's well-founded speculation. See above.
"And it never has and never will. So, irrelevant nonsense."
And it has, and always will. So therefore, relevant perspective.
http://biologicinstitute.org/2008/10/17/the-genius-behind-the-ingenious /
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/biologic_explores_the_successe.html
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/09/as_engineers_turn_to_marine_bi.html
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/03/engineers_improve_human_techno.html
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/08/the_human_eye_is_so_poorly_des.html
"Nope. Your ignorance is abysmal.
http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/11/exploring-the-o.html "
Speak for yourself. In order to explain how RNA could have been the prime starter for the origin of life you must explain how all four nucleotide bases (adenine, cytosine, guanine, uracil), the five-carbon sugar ribose, and a phosphate group could have formed in the same primordial soup when all six of those things develop under completely DIFFERENT chemical conditions. It would be like baking a cake by manufacturing the flower, eggs, sugar, yeast, etc. in the exact same bowl. It can't happen:
http://www.arn.org/docs/odesign/od171/rnaworld171.htm
http://www.arn.org/docs/odesign/od171/ribo171.htm
And let's not forget the dreaded Spiegelman monster:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiegelman_Monster
"Nope - it's well-founded speculation. See above."
After seeing the above, I must ask: well-founded on what?
BTW: Should we stick to cellular origins for now?
The "Biologic Institute"???
My, my, what nonsense.
Many stupid "evolutionnews" and "arn" references.
I ignore nonsense.
"let's not forget the dreaded Spiegelman monster:"
"Such a short RNA had been able to replicate very quickly in these unnatural circumstances."
Yes, "unnatural circumstances" often shed light on the real world. So what?
"I must ask: well-founded on what?"
Science, you ninny.
"The "Biologic Institute"???
My, my, what nonsense.
Many stupid "evolutionnews" and "arn" references.
I ignore nonsense."
Yes, it's quite typical of people such as yourself to ignore any opposing evidence by putting your hands over your ears, and screaming as loud as possible.
"Science, you ninny."
I've provided the science, while you just resort to name calling and ignoring anything put in front of you. Do you have any evidence to the claims and links I presented in this comment:
http://www.opposingviews.com/comments/that-s-been-taken-care-of-your-turn-now
I'm guessing you don't, and I'm pretty sure your next comment will show for it.
You spouted:
"Do you have any evidence to the claims and links I presented in this comment"
I assume you want "evidence" against such "claims". But since the "claims" are mere assertions, there is no need for "evidence".
From the first (Biologic "Institute") article:
"If it was reasonable to think that selection ought to be as powerful in virtual worlds as it is in the real world (and we think it was), then the considerable limitations we now see demonstrated (even proven) in virtual worlds should perhaps make us re-think the extravagant claims we make about selection in the real world."
This article seems to want to claim that the "success or failure" of "evolutionary algorithms" on a computer is somehow related to the "real world" with evolution over a million years in an incredibly complex and changing environment. They have the opinion that this is a "reasonable" analogy. But that opinion is not reasonable, so the "argument" is ridiculous and the article is nonsense.
The summary at the end of the third article:
"Blind and unguided processes created "exactly what we need today"?"
This seems to be a silly appeal to "common sense" - there is no science here, just an opinion that is nonsensical. And the usual prejudice of leaving out the key word "selection".
From the fourth article:
"But one would not expect that complex systems that in many instances outperform human technology would be the result of a random and blind process."
Note the usual strawman - "random" and "blind" process without mentioning millions of years of natural selection. The "process" is not-at-all "blind" - selection produces species that are a better fit to their environment.
So, again, this seems to be an appeal to "common sense" by framing the question improperly and giving an opinion that has no basis in reality.
There is no science here. There is no evidence here. Just silliness.
The ARN article "RNA world" seems to be an attempt that is more serious. But it dates from 1996. It argues that certain aspects of an "RNA world" are improbable. This has nothing to do with "intelligent design" of course. And since it has to do with abiogenesis, it does not really have anything to do with evolution. So, whether of not their critique of "RNA world" from 12 years ago is or is not valid is irrelevant.
After a reference to Dembski's "Design Inference", they summarize:
"To see design as a real causal possibility, however, one must break free of the constraints of naturalism."
This seems reasonable - naturalism is science and design is "not science" and so, yes, if you start "breaking free" of science, you could accept non-science nonsense.
And Dembski's "Design inference" is useless of course.
"I assume you want "evidence" against such "claims". But since the "claims" are mere assertions, there is no need for "evidence"."
Huh??? By all means, lend me the evidence.
"This article seems to want to claim that the "success or failure" of "evolutionary algorithms" on a computer is somehow related to the "real world" with evolution over a million years in an incredibly complex and changing environment. They have the opinion that this is a "reasonable" analogy. But that opinion is not reasonable, so the "argument" is ridiculous and the article is nonsense."
So why is it not a reasonable analogy? Can you think of anything better? Seems like it makes some pretty reasonable assumptions to me; 26 letters in the alphabet seem like they could nicely have the task of simulating 20 amino acids delegated to them.
"This seems to be a silly appeal to "common sense" - there is no science here, just an opinion that is nonsensical. And the usual prejudice of leaving out the key word "selection""
How is this an opinion that is "nonsensical?" And natural selection IS a blind unguided process, according to many of it's top defenders, such as this man you should've heard of by now:
http://www.amazon.com/Blind-Watchmaker-Evidence-Evolution-Universe/dp/0393315703/ref =pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231571063&sr=8-1
So explain to me how selection is misrepresented by describing it as blind and unguided if it's top defender uses the same characterization.
"Note the usual strawman - "random" and "blind" process without mentioning millions of years of natural selection. The "process" is not-at-all "blind" - selection produces species that are a better fit to their environment.
So, again, this seems to be an appeal to "common sense" by framing the question improperly and giving an opinion that has no basis in reality.
There is no science here. There is no evidence here. Just silliness."
See the above point. They aren't describing it any differently than selection's top defenders would.
"The ARN article "RNA world" seems to be an attempt that is more serious. But it dates from 1996."
Has there been any breakthroughs since then that falsify the article's claims? Origin of the Species is dated as well but that doesn't make the book useless.
"It argues that certain aspects of an "RNA world" are improbable. This has nothing to do with "intelligent design" of course."
Actually, it does. If we can determine that an information carrier cannot generate information on it's own then there's no reason why we shouldn't assume it had the same source as all information we see today (mind, intelligence, etc.).
"And since it has to do with abiogenesis, it does not really have anything to do with evolution."
No one ever said it did, it's about ID.
"So, whether of not their critique of "RNA world" from 12 years ago is or is not valid is irrelevant."
See the above point, the article was with respect to findings and implications supportive of ID, not evolution.
"This seems reasonable - naturalism is science and design is "not science" and so, yes, if you start "breaking free" of science, you could accept non-science nonsense."
That's one way to phrase a straw man. Why must all of science be supportive of naturalism and why is design excluded from science?
"And Dembski's "Design inference" is useless of course."
How so?
"Have there been any breakthroughs since then?"
Here is one:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1167856
"These cross-replicating RNA enzymes undergo self-sustained exponential amplification in the absence of proteins or other biological materials."
An RNA world no longer seems so improbable.
I'm sure there have been many others in the last 12 years. But you are obviously not interested in learning anything.
"... that falsify the article's claims?"
A "claim" that an "event" is "improbable" is not a claim worth wasting any electrons. But perhaps a real-world example that works means that that particular event is not improbable.
"Why must all of science be supportive of naturalism?"
Because it's the only definition of science that actually works, you idiot.
"why is design excluded from science?"
How could I claim that "design" (whatever that means) is "excluded from science"? Only if the supposed design is by an unknown agent working "beyond science". So, when you explain to me exactly how your agent did what he did, when did he do it, and how he used techniques of physics and chemistry to do it and we could have a further discussion. I thought not.
"Here is one:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1167856 "
Ah yes, I've read about that one before: http://www.uncommondescent.com/biology/rna-getting-lengthy /
Now let's look at your take on the experiment...
"An RNA world no longer seems so improbable."
Here's a comment from an IDer on such an experiment, tell me what you think:
"Don’t forget Stephen C. Meyer comment on the RNA world: “[F]or a single strand of RNA to replicate, there must be an identical RNA molecule close by. To have a reasonable chance of having two identical RNA molecules of the right length would require a library of ten billion billion billion billion billion billion RNA molecules - and that effectively rules out any chance origin of a primitive replicating system.”
On top of that, were these experiments even realistic to the earth’s primitive environment?"
So it still remains pretty improbable to me, but maybe you know something I don't. Let me know if you do.
"I'm sure there have been many others in the last 12 years. But you are obviously not interested in learning anything."
By all means, if you can cite an experiment which realistically simulated the early earth's environment that shows RNA increasing in CSI and leading to DNA, then to a ribosome, then a cell, then a.......well shoot, you know the research. Maybe you can find a paper.
"A "claim" that an "event" is "improbable" is not a claim worth wasting any electrons."
Right, it's worth a few black holes, and a galaxy or two. Or something. If we have no realistic chance of something happening, why should we trust that it did?
"But perhaps a real-world example that works means that that particular event is not improbable."
Which would mean every experiment that has failed to allow random chemical products to produce a living cell.
"Because it's the only definition of science that actually works, you idiot."
Really? So what does science gain from assuming that everything is primarily unintended and accidental?
"Only if the supposed design is by an unknown agent working "beyond science"."
How would this unknown agent be working beyond science? If we're drawing conclusions from features of the natural world, why would it matter?
"So, when you explain to me exactly how your agent did what he did, when did he do it, and how he used techniques of physics and chemistry to do it and we could have a further discussion. I thought not."
Why would we need to know the question of "what he did, when did he do it, and how he used techniques of physics and chemistry to do it" to conclude something was designed? In coming across a newspaper on the ground I never ask myself those things to infer they had an intelligent cause. Is there some kind of exception to this rule?
"maybe you know something I don't. Let me know if you do."
What I know is that research continues - come back in a decade, a century, or a millennium.
New article - the first article at
http://carlzimmer.com/articles/index.php
"On the Origin of Life on Earth"
I don't know if it makes sense to keep trying to plug an explanation to a problem that in principle can't be solved by it, but I took a look at the following:
http://carlzimmer.com/articles/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1231454030&archive=&start_from=&ucat=11 &
Not much detail here except for the usual "RNA came first, then came proteins/DNA..." and "Protocells are like primitive cells," (this despite the fact that they are mostly lifeless lipids compared to a full pro/eukaryotic cell: http://www.studiodaily.com/main/technique/tprojects/6850.html ). If this is what a current research victory is, then I can only imagine what a defeat would look like.
So evolution is fine, it's only abiogenesis that's a problem?
Ok. I'm not very unhappy with that statement. So what? "Intelligent design" has nothing to offer for abiogenesis except "poof" - some unknown entity did it? That's not science of course, so it's never going to make it into a high school textbook.
"So evolution is fine, it's only abiogenesis that's a problem?"
Depends on what you mean by evolution.
"Ok. I'm not very unhappy with that statement. So what? "Intelligent design" has nothing to offer for abiogenesis except "poof" - some unknown entity did it?"
Not quite like that, but if you can come up with a better idea let me know.
"That's not science of course, so it's never going to make it into a high school textbook."
For the trillionth time, how is it not science?
"For the trillionth time, how is it not science ?"
Hilarious. What does your "it' in that sentence refer to? Poof?
Obviously "poof" is not science.
So maybe your poor brain means something else.
Obviously "intelligent design" is not science.
Science means natural causes have natural effects. "Intelligent design" is not natural and can never be part of science. "Intelligent design" can never be a "better explanation" without some, you know, actual evidence in its favor. So where is that manufacturer's label on that elephant?
"Hilarious. What does your "it' in that sentence refer to? Poof?"
I think it may take a couple dozen times to drive the point home...
http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php / id /1136
"Obviously "poof" is not science."
At least we can agree on something.
"So maybe your poor brain means something else."
Indeed, see the above link.
"Obviously "intelligent design" is not science."
Give me a definition of science and explain why ID is excluded from that. Oh wait...
"Science means natural causes have natural effects."
Which doesn't exclude intelligent causes.
""Intelligent design" is not natural and can never be part of science."
How is it not natural?
""Intelligent design" can never be a "better explanation" without some, you know, actual evidence in its favor."
Like a cell as a whole?
"So where is that manufacturer's label on that elephant?"
Nowhere, but the instruction manual can be found in the genome.
"The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and living things are best explained by an intelligent cause,"
Well, of course this can never be a theory because it can never actually predict anything meaningful unless such "intelligent cause" is "natural". But no good Christian wants to hear that. So it is always left unsaid. Which allows the implication that such "intelligent cause" is supernatural. Which is why the Chairman of the Texas State Board of Education would certainly like to expand the definition of science to include the supernatural. But we've been over this ground before.
"Which doesn't exclude intelligent causes."
Provided that this intelligent cause is "natural". So go to your creationist friends and explain to them very carefully that your intelligent cause really is "natural". Then go to your scientist friends and explain to them how to test for this "intelligent cause". What experiment should they perform?
"Like a cell as a whole?"
Fail. "I know it when I see it" is not allowed when you simply behold a cell.
"Nowhere, but the instruction manual can be found in the genome."
Yes. And by comparing that "instruction manual" with others, the obviously closest mammal to an elephant is a manatee - a whale's closest is a hippopotamus. So evolution is obvious.
"Well, of course this can never be a theory because it can never actually predict anything meaningful unless such "intelligent cause" is "natural"."
What difference would it make if the conclusions are drawn from features of the natural world?
"But no good Christian wants to hear that. So it is always left unsaid."
What does Christianity have to do with this?
"Which allows the implication that such "intelligent cause" is supernatural."
How is the supernatural relevant to this discussion?
"Which is why the Chairman of the Texas State Board of Education would certainly like to expand the definition of science to include the supernatural. But we've been over this ground before."
Have we really? I would like for you to give me a definition of science that would solve the demarcation problem. (if you can)
"Provided that this intelligent cause is "natural"."
Which is irrelevant to the features in question that are being studied in the first place.
"So go to your creationist friends..."
I don't have any. Though I have plenty of connections with ID proponents.
"...and explain to them very carefully that your intelligent cause really is "natural"."
Why should I?
"Then go to your scientist friends and explain to them how to test for this "intelligent cause". What experiment should they perform?"
The Seelke experiment, cassette mutagenesis, common sense, etc?
"Fail. "I know it when I see it" is not allowed when you simply behold a cell."
Straw man. I never claimed that the cell was designed solely on the basis of it's superficial appearance. I claim it is designed because a. material mechanisms do not exhibit the causal adequacy to generate such a system, and b. the most causally adequate explanation to how such a system arose is intelligence. Plain and simple.
"Yes. And by comparing that "instruction manual" with others, the obviously closest mammal to an elephant is a manatee - a whale's closest is a hippopotamus. So evolution is obvious."
That's evidence for common descent, not evidence for the claim that random mutations acted upon by natural selection are responsible for the complexity and diversity of life.
"I claim it is designed because a) material mechanisms do not exhibit the causal adequacy to generate such a system"
Ok. So we really have gotten to "It's impossible". You are entitled to your opinion. Your opinion is worthless.
"b) the most causally adequate explanation to how such a system arose is intelligence."
When they pressed Dawkins for 10 minutes, he admitted it could have been "space aliens". This got a good laugh (in the movie Expelled). Do you admit that it could have been "space aliens"? But there's no evidence for that.
So the bottom line once again is - your "intelligence" is supernatural and not allowed by science .
"So it still remains pretty improbable to me"
So what? Your opinion is unimportant.
"If we have no realistic chance of something happening, why should we trust that it did?"
Now it's no longer "pretty improbable", it's "no realistic chance". Your opinion is still unimportant.
It's a silly game that does not really have anything to do with evolution - it's abiogenesis. Come back in another hundred years and we will see if any further progress has been made on the fundamental probability of abiogenesis. Until then, I'm outta here.
"Why would we need to know the question of "what he did, when did he do it, and how he used techniques of physics and chemistry to do it" to conclude something was designed?"
Round and round you go. You wish to claim it's "designed" but there is no knowledge of a "designer". Well, that's covered in the original statements and 739 comments. You are a waste of time. I'm outta here.
"Is there some kind of exception to this rule?"
You wish to make "intelligent design" an exception to the rule that we DO need to know something about the who, what, why and when of the designer in order to conclude that something is designed and I say that's a silly attempt at trying to be an exception to the rule. So obviously "I know design when I see it and I see it" is nonsense. So "design is a better explanation" is also nonsense. So I'm outta here.
I meant to respond to this sooner, but I'm wondering if you still want me to respond to this or not even though I promised I would stop debating in the following comment:
http://www.opposingviews.com/comments/very-well-then
"Why would we need to know the question of "what he did, when did he do it, and how he used techniques of physics and chemistry to do it" to conclude something was designed? In coming across a newspaper on the ground I never ask myself those things to infer they had an intelligent cause. Is there some kind of exception to this rule?"
Since you already know what a newspaper is, and how it is created, there is no need for you to ask those questions.... but if you did not know what a newspaper was, or how it was made, wouldn't those be valid questions?
Look at archeology... archeologists find things all the time and ask "who, how, why". If you show me a triangle shaped piece of rock and say that it was made by a person shouldn't I ask you who it was, how they made it, and what they were making it for?
"Since you already know what a newspaper is, and how it is created, there is no need for you to ask those questions.... but if you did not know what a newspaper was, or how it was made, wouldn't those be valid questions?"
....if you honestly NEED those questions answered to KNOW that a newspaper (which one had never seen before) was the product of design, then I honestly can't help that person. Clearly anyone with a little common sense would know (even if they did not know what a newspaper was) that such a thing was in no way shape or form the product of undirected processes.
"Look at archeology... archeologists find things all the time and ask "who, how, why"."
Part of what archeology is about. They don't need that information to conclude it was the product of some kind of caveman, tribesman, or something other than wind and erosion.
"If you show me a triangle shaped piece of rock and say that it was made by a person shouldn't I ask you who it was, how they made it, and what they were making it for?"
It's definitely a good extension to the research and study of that object, but one need not have the answers to those questions to conclude a triangular shaped piece of obsidian with leather tied around it was not from undirected processes.
"....if you honestly NEED those questions answered to KNOW that a newspaper (which one had never seen before) was the product of design, then I honestly can't help that person. Clearly anyone with a little common sense would know (even if they did not know what a newspaper was) that such a thing was in no way shape or form the product of undirected processes."
True... but having established that something is artificially created then the three W's are next (who, why, how). I'm saying that IF I accept your premise then answer the 3W, or at least make a passable attempt at a scientific answer to those three questions.
Evolution has already moved past showing that things evolve (its readily demonstrable on the small scale and there is strong evidence for it on the large scale) and has already moved on to explaining how and why (and who, if we personify natural selection)
"Part of what archeology is about. They don't need that information to conclude it was the product of some kind of caveman, tribesman, or something other than wind and erosion."
But that is the next step. Once something is established to be artificially created archeologists don't just put it aside and move onto the next bit, they look into the 3W... Saying "yea that was artificially created" ins only a small part of what needs to be done.
"It's definitely a good extension to the research and study of that object, but one need not have the answers to those questions to conclude a triangular shaped piece of obsidian with leather tied around it was not from undirected processes."
"This is an arrowhead, it was artificially created!"
"I don't know.... are you sure it's not a chipped rock and part of a hide? Were there any stone tool users in the area at the time that you think that was made?"
"We can never know that!"
OR
"This is an arrowhead, it was artificially created!"
"I don't know.... are you sure it's not a chipped rock and part of a hide? Were there any stone tool users in the area at the time that you think that was made?"
"We found human bones at the same site, and evidence on animal bones near by that tools were used on them"
We know that an arrowhead is artificial because of how it is chipped, a process that we can replicate to produce the same results.
"So why is it not a reasonable analogy?"
In case you haven't noticed, a billion years of reality is a little more complicated than a computer program.
"Can you think of anything better?"
Your request is stupid.
"So explain to me how selection is misrepresented by describing it as blind and unguided"
The point is that the creationists wish to claim that our current reality could not be produced by evolution SINCE it is "blind and unguided". It is true that evolution is unguided, but that does not mean that it cannot produce what we observe in our world today. At any rate, this has nothing to do with "intelligent design".
"If we can determine that an information carrier cannot generate information on its own"
It seems you are ignoring all of the scientific research papers about the many ways that a mutation to DNA can generate new information. So, since your premise is obviously false, there can be no positive conclusion. So, yes, "intelligent design" tries to make such silly claims and the claims are false.
Sorry for the delay. Just took the first few steps in starting an IDEA Center.
"In case you haven't noticed, a billion years of reality is a little more complicated than a computer program."
Let's see if there's even any reverent point to this, I'm thinking your saying that over the course of the last billion years we've gathered evidence that.... or wait a sec, maybe your saying that recently a piece of evidence was found from a billion years ago that suggests something. Sh*t, I really don't know. Care to ellaborate as to what the "billion years of reality" is?
"Your request is stupid."
It's okay, you've pretty much answered my question and proven my point.
"The point is that the creationists...."
Wait justa darn minute. Where does the old school fundie who thinks everything was made in less than a week and that the earth is 10K years old fit into this?
"...wish to claim that our current reality could not be produced by evolution SINCE it is "blind and unguided"."
I'll just assume you're referring to design theorists on this one. But to answer this claim I doubt this is the premise and motive behind everyone who feels ID is better at explaining the origins of various features and properties of physics. (As an example) Behe once felt that Evolution (as both Darwin and supporters of the modern Neo-Darwinian Synthesis know it) was pretty much an explanation for everything. As a Catholic he was taught that if evolution was the means by which a god of sorts wanted to insert life on a suitable planet, then there was no point in questioning it. He didn't just look at it and say "Well, this is a blind and unguided process, so I doubt this can happen." Mike Gene, Stephen Meyer, Michael Denton, Fred Hoyle, and several other people didn't just throw their hands up and say "Unguided=Impossible."
"It is true that evolution is unguided, but that does not mean that it cannot produce what we observe in our world today."
I can agree completely with the fact that the mechanistic process behind a theory (even if the layman would assume it's superficially unfounded) does not disqualify it from being true, and I also agree that evolution can go a pretty long way. Nylonase, Chromosome number 2, the evidence is there that it can achieve something. But where I and many ID proponents part with NDS is the question of whether Evolution can produce every feature of life, and HOW it occurs (e.g. was this an accidental series of mutations, or was some kind of front-loading involved).
"At any rate, this has nothing to do with "intelligent design"."
Intelligent Design (as I like to put it) is basically the "radical" school of thought that there's more to the universe and life than random particle collision, or accidental transcription mistakes leading to new biological structures/functions. The definition used by the Discovery Institute is that "...Certain features of the Universe and in living systems are better explained as being the product of an intelligent cause, rather than an undirected process such as natural selection." Clearly the question of how adequate quasi-random processes can achieve things fits perfectly into ID.
A good overview on the definition can be found here: http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2007-01-01T16_23_44-08_00
"It seems you are ignoring all of the scientific research papers about the many ways that a mutation to DNA can generate new information."
Let me give you an overview of what I usually find, and tends to be presented in front of me in terms of the "new information" mutations produce. It goes a little something like this:
Gene number X allows a given protein to do function y. After a few point mutations/gene reversals/frameshifts/duplications/deletions/whatever other mutation you can think of, the information that codes for that particular protein/structure now codes for a new function (like what we see with nylonase). My objection to claims like this is that all you have is changes in EXISTING information, but no NEW information is produced. No new structures, no increase in the number of total functions within the genome, just new ones appearing IN PLACE of EXISTING ones. This is not a step forward or back in the context of evolution as people advocate it, it is a step sideways.
Now tell me what some of those papers are on the new INCREASE in information that have supposedly been produced.
"So, since your premise is obviously false, there can be no positive conclusion."
See the above paragraph for what my premise really is, and what do you mean by "positive conclusion?"
"So, yes, "intelligent design" tries to make such silly claims and the claims are false."
Like what?
"My objection to claims like this is that all you have is changes in EXISTING information, but no NEW information is produced."
Your objection is noted and disregarded as stupid.
""So, yes, " intelligent design " tries to make such silly claims and the claims are false."
"Like what?"
Like "no new information is produced".
Well, there have been more amusing and fulfilling debates I've had on this topic, but every several people I debate eventually drop to the same level of discourse as you do. It goes something like this...
"Hmmmm, If I just SAY what I think, it will automatically qualify as truth! YAY!!!"
I'll have to warn you, you're not gonna like the next few pointers I give to you, and if my predictions are correct, you'll ignore them altogether just like every other ID critic I've tried to help.
Suppose you're taking the same approach to the debate over origins as Ken Miller. That's right, your goal is to literally win the SOUL of America, or all hell will break loose. Now what can you do to convince me that ID is total crank science, and Evolution is the ultimate explanation for everything in biology?
Well to start, you can't do it by labeling questions as "stupid," or ignore them altogether, or insist they've been answered, without even giving a source to that claim.
I think anyone watching this debate would agree, you've contributed very little to this discourse except by insisting how stupid and ridiculous my questions and claims are. If that is what changes minds, then the supporters of NDS and critics of ID should've won public consensus over a decade ago.
Now let's try this again:
"Your objection is noted and disregarded as stupid."
Sure don't see any substance to this claim. But then again, this is to be expected. My opinion on ID is different, but it's critics are all the same. Now let's see if you can pull off what no critic of your kind has done before: explain to be just WHY my objection is so stupid. I mean, come one. Look what happen to those loose change dickwads:
http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr /
They not only had some pretty unfounded ideas, but their critics managed to point them out. Care to do the same??? Maybe just this once?
"Like "no new information is produced"."
Now let's see how many posts it takes for you to explain just why we can regard (in the examples I described) the changes of function as an increase in new information in the genome (which is required for your theory to work in the first place). Betcha can't......and won't.
"every several people I debate eventually drop to the same level of discourse as you do"
It's very frustrating trying to talk sense to an idiot.
There is lots of information about this "new information" subject out there in the real world and I don't see any point in my trying to enter any of that information into this particular reply when it's very clear that you are really interested in hearing it.
"Betcha can't......and won't."
I'm not going to waste any more time on your silliness.
"It's very frustrating trying to talk sense to an idiot."
I can tell. And I think you've begun to reinforce that fact.
"There is lots of information about this "new information" subject out there in the real world and I don't see any point in my trying to enter any of that information into this particular reply when it's very clear that you are really interested in hearing it."
Indeed, I am very interested in hearing it, and would be more than happy if you posted it.
"I'm not going to waste any more time on your silliness."
Then why reply to me in the first place?
The only reason there would be more research into junk DNA would be because ID supporters have misunderstood what ID has to say about junk DNA - which is precisely nothing.
Might I suggest that the main reason why the authors think that ID would open up new avenues of scientific research in animal biology is because they don't know the meaning of the word 'vestigial'?
I am always tickled by claims of ID advocates that "Darwinism" stifles inquiry and that only ID creationism will 'break the shackles' that "Darwinism" puts on the mind, that ID creationism will open 'avenues of insight' into practically everything.
I am tickeld by this because when you look at the scientific output of one who has subcsribed to the ID creationist paradigm, you see next to nothing. Once prolific scientists become ID advocates, they stop producing anything of merit. Look at Kenyon. Look at Behe. Look at Gonzalez.
If ID creationism were so liberating, why are not ID advoactes the ones making all the grand discoveries?
For example,ID creationists like to claim that they 'predicted' all along that 'JunkDNA' would be functional. Ask them to document their prediction. You won't see a thing. Especially since function was known to exist in some junk DNA as early as the 1950s.
They are co-opters, embellishers, and fabricators who prey on the gullible and the uninformed and the culturally conservative.
ID is not scientific, certainly not in an honest fashion.
None of these promises have much relevance to ID as a concept nor have few if any come to fruition. The proof is in the pudding, the saying goes and ID so far has remained scientifically without content and while it surely makes a lot of promises, it has made little or no progress to actually live up to said promises.
As to the 'hostility' towards intelligent design, scientists have come to realize that ID's foundations and its lack of scientific content make it an enemy of reason, as an unconstitutional attempt to introduce a yet to be proven scientific concept into our public schools. As guardians of science, scientists and their organizations have a duty to speak out as to the nature of ID.
ID has the right to speak, but that does not mean a right to be heard.