Feelings are Not Proof of Intervention
The best evidence for healing prayer comes from personal experience. There are millions of stories in which people attribute a healing effect to prayer. Many people have gotten deathly ill and asked a god, spirit, or angel to intervene in the natural course of their illness. If they recover, they give credit to the spirit. Likewise, millions of people have prayed for intervention on behalf of another person who is injured, ill, or diseased. If the one being prayed for recovers, the recovery is thought to be due to the intervention of a god or some other spirit.
One can’t deny the emotional force of such anecdotes. Nor can one deny the apparent strength of the evidence that comes from the accumulation of millions of such stories from around the world in every era of human history. When analyzed, however, the weakness and flaws inherent in such anecdotal evidence become apparent.
The emotional force of any evidence, while relevant to the persuasiveness of the evidence, is irrelevant to its logical force. The fact that a person feels that a prayer was heard by a spirit is not proof that there was an intervention. A baseball fan may cross his fingers and hope a batter gets a hit, but if the batter does or doesn’t get a hit, the fan’s feelings are not relevant to whether the superstitious action had any effect on the batter’s performance.
The cumulative effect that comes from the sheer quantity of anecdotes is illusory for two reasons. First, the collection of anecdotes is always selective due to confirmation bias, the tendency to seek out and recognize instances that confirm one’s beliefs or hypothesis. This process is faulty, however, because it does not consider all the evidence: it omits all the stories that indicate a contrary belief or hypothesis might be true. In this case, we are talking about the millions or billions of cases where someone prayed for a healing but the healing did not happen. The negative stories, however, are just as relevant to the issue as the positive stories. Second, the cumulative effect of evidence must be considered in light of the strength of each piece of evidence, as well as in light of any counter-evidence. Each healing prayer anecdote, whether positive or negative, is essentially very weak, logically speaking, because the data show little more than that one thing happened or didn’t happen after another. If by the question “Can prayer heal?” we mean “do some people recover after they’ve been prayed for?”, then the answer is “yes.” But if we mean “was prayer a causal factor in the recovery?”, then the answer is “we don’t know and no amount of anecdotal evidence can answer that question.” So, even if there are millions of anecdotes of healing prayer that are unquestionably true, we are not justified in claiming on that basis alone that prayer can heal. Anecdotes can’t tell us if the prayer was a causal factor in anyone’s healing. To determine whether prayer is a causal factor in healing, scientific studies must be done.
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and still no one has offered true evidence of prayer healing anyone. Present a statement from a doctor that he stood by while prayer healed the patient, if it is true you should have no trouble obtaining one.
If one of my children were injured or ill I always sought medical attention rather than prayer. I am getting pretty old and have never had a doctor ask me to pray for healing yet.
What I am trying to point out is that if you have a person who has been shot or stabbed and is getting near death just ask him if he wants a doctor and a nurse with a few helpers or a thousand people praying for him. I can tell you easily what his choice will be.
The peace prayer gives is real if you dont believe that try a situation where you are in distress and see how that feels compared to a situation where you have peace. When you are in distress it feels pretty awful compared to peace. The opposite to the peace you get acquire through prayer, whether it be by your prayers or having others pray for you and often this prayer is accompanied by anoiting with oil , would be hynosis a modern medical version of good old fashion prayer but that is a whole new can of worms or pandoras box, if you will, ie you do more spiritual damage to a person with hypnosis than with prayer.
With hypnosis you are playing with spiritual fire and with prayer you are acknowledging, as with hypnosis, that there is a power from within and without that can be drawn upon in times of need. Prayer draws upon a person faith in God and in Gods ability to intervene. Hypnosis draws upon the hypnotists words and therefore you are putting your faith into a person vs God and according to scripture that is dangerous, not just for the person being hypnotized by for the hypnotist as well.
I have started a book titled, WHY HYPNOSIS IS BAD, that there are similarities between them both ie is praying for a person depends upon the belief that their is a divine supernatural power beyond our control that can intervene on our behalf at our request vs a hynotic supernatural power I believe that is associated with demonic activity or the big s word..satan. Another similarity is that they both have the ability to mentally convince someone of an idea or thought based upon assumptions or faith and I see the main difference in this particular is that prayer is more gentile and non-evasive where hypnosis is not only self deceiving because it puts a person in contact with hazy past memories that can be jumbled and scrambled mentally, and someone elses thoughts and their spiritual condition can be transferred into the heart and mind of the person being hypnotized; ask our government about some of its hypnosis techniques on solidgers. Many dangers in allowing someone into your head vs doing all you can as a human being and then humbling oneself to ask for divine assistance and leaving it at that are two entirely different kinds of intervention, one is empowering ie prayer and one gives up their own power and lets another person implant their words ie power. I see hypnosis as more damaging than prayer ever thought of being. I also see more damage with hypnosis because you have a person speaking to your defenseless mind and this person could abuse that voice and cause much psychological damage and on a spiritual note, assuming that even hypnostists know that a person is make up of not just physical but mental, spiritual, that a spirit can become defiled and that defilement can seperate that person from the Holy Spirit of God,which just in and of itself opens up the spirit of a person to spiritual attacks from demonic forces.
If this sounds strange I would recommend reading some of Mark Bubecks books ie The Adversary and Overcoming the Adversary of real life accounts of demonic attacks and oppression. Where some of his patients had been involved in satanism but others in more milder forms of self hypnosis ie very hard rock and evil music to sexual perversions. I esp. loved his doctrinal prayers for such attacks because they are very insightful and powerful and down right self empowering. Now if you dont beleive in prayer you must not believe in hypnosis because they both have actual and factual and testable results on individuals, prayer however, does not defile the spiritual man and hypnosis does. Also hypnosis can be used to control a persons reactions and behaviors that are beyond that persons control and can be used by criminals for illegal and immoral reasons ie predators using it for sexual abuse.
Prayer, on the other hand, focuses on the positive and and at no time does it possess a persons will or choice in life, as does hypnosis, it is not invasive on the level that hypnosis is and it has a very deep comfort and many kinds of healings can be accomplished through prayer. Personally I see prayer working in my life all the time. Prayer can be very successful and unfortunately,as with all of Gods gifts satan has a conterfeit, hypnosis being that counterfeit to prayer in my opinion, is also at times successful, harmful, yet sucessful.
You cant have God without satan hence you have prayer and hypnosis. The real and the psedo both are available for help with issues but only one is really beneficial and it isnt hypnosis.Just my thoughts.
"The peace prayer gives is real if you dont believe that try a situation where you are in distress and see how that feels compared to a situation where you have peace."
Even if an individual does not believe that prayer can help them?
"The opposite to the peace you get acquire through prayer, whether it be by your prayers or having others pray for you and often this prayer is accompanied by anoiting with oil , would be hynosis a modern medical version of good old fashion prayer but that is a whole new can of worms or pandoras box, if you will, ie you do more spiritual damage to a person with hypnosis than with prayer."
If they are both methods for positive thinking then what is the objective difference between the two? And how do you quantify that spiritual damage?
"Prayer draws upon a person faith in God and in Gods ability to intervene."
What about Buddhist prayers? Most forms of Buddhism do not have a central deity to pray to?
"You cant have God without satan hence you have prayer and hypnosis."
Why does an all-powerful, all-knowing entity require an opponent? Also I think that religions that do not have a 'devil figure' would disagree with you (again pointing towards Buddhism).
to prove something exists you must be able to prove its opposite as well.
That does not sound very logical to me. I can prove I exist without proving that my opposite (what ever that means) exists.
A book was placed on a stand and tyhe class was told to write a paper arguing that the book didn't exist.
The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'.
If I want to prove that the color black exists all I would have to do is prove that the color white exists. If I want to prove that there is such a thing as darkness I need only prove there is such a thing as light.
As far as you are concerned I would simply have to prove that there is indeed intelligent life out there somewhere.Smiles. It feels good being right.
"If I want to prove that the color black exists all I would have to do is prove that the color white exists."
Really? I'd like to see that proof.
Just because one thing exists does not necessitate that it's opposite exists. Indeed I have always found that the concept of 'the devil' was particularly at odds with Christian beliefs. How does any entity actively oppose an omnipotent, omniscient being?
Satanists might disagree with me but satan does not know the future Gd does.
It is impossible to define an object without defining its opposite as well. Example: Paul preaches in the NT that woman should be silent in church . I agree, except when singing or in a subordinate role. The very statement that woman should be silent in church proves we are to speak out when we are not in church. Another example: In Job Gd says to satan, "have you noticed Job?". What that tells me is that if satan attacks you that Gd knows who you are first. Satan doesnt go around introducing his victims to Gd, on the contrary, and that actually gives me more peace because one of the worse things in life, even worse than suffering at the hands of evil, is to not be known by Gd. Remembering the scripture where Gd says, "Depart from me I dont know you". Attacks from satan would appear as almost an endorsement by Gd that you are his and as strange as that seems its comforting to me. And as a bonus, no matter what evil is done to us, Gd turns it around for good, in some way, so that even satans preceived power over us is robbed from him when Gd intervenes to help us and restore us. One thing satan cannot do is restore and redeem he can only destroy and thats why the little booger is called the destroyer and why Jesus is called the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE. I can only assume satan is the opposite of that as well.
Oops Im preaching again,sorry. You said, quote: Just because one thing exists does not necessitate that it's opposite exists. end quote
Try it. Try to define something without defining its opposite in the very definition, I could be wrong, but I dont think its possible. Sooooo if prayer can heal then hypnosis damages,makes perfect sense to me. Having had both done on me I can attest to prayer helping me spiritually and hypnosis hurting me spiritually.
"It is impossible to define an object without defining its opposite as well."
What about water? what is the opposite of water (H2O)?
"Try to define something without defining its opposite in the very definition, I could be wrong, but I dont think its possible."
An apple , a half empty glass, a tree, a planet... what are the opposites of these?
sorry to interrupt... but I'm afraid Mr. Book is correct here --
what is the opposite of God?... depends what you mean - it could be 'the devil'... it could be Dog... it could be 'nothing' (given God is 'everything)...
opposites can't be defined... they are entirely subjective..
Registered Nurse, ladies and gentlemen...
LPN in others. I do home health now, too old for the floor work.
I cant speak for others but I know God hears our prayers for help and indeed helps us. I was having a migraine of horendous magnitude one day and I prayed about it. I even thought at one point the pain was so severe that I would die of a bleed or something.
I just remember crying out to God to please help me and I gently feel asleep and when I woke up my head ache was completely, entirely gone. I just said THANK YOU JESUS. Prayer doesnt heal you, God heals you.
I have done precisely the same thing without the need of appeal to any "higher force" and with the very same effect. What you have proven is that trust in one's ability to heal and a good rest can help a migraine. This incident says nothing of the alleged existence of a " god " but speaks volumes regarding the human capacity for recuperation and the human capacity to reason out a solution to suffering. You've illustrated the power of a human being and have shown nothing of the power of alleged supernatural forces outside of your unsubstantiated insistence they are at work.
One can only imagine the power inherent in a human being if they consistently believed in their own power far above the silly beliefs in imaginary forces.
Just because you feel something does not mean that it is true. If I were to pray for someone, which religion should I chose to pray in? Is it more effective to pray as a Christian/Hindu/Buddhist/Muslim/Wiccain/Janist/Zoroastrianism/Voodoo? If the curative effect of prayer comes from divine intervention then we should be able to determine which divine entity(s) answer prayers by looking at the ration or prayer vs. recovered for the different religious faiths spread across the world. Though this does assume that the deities in question intervene in a statistically significant number of instances.
Nobody is saying 'don't pray', just that the act of praying does not contribute a great deal to an individuals recovery.
It does not contribute a great deal to an individuals recovery? Or a measurable deal? Long and short we can't change God's will but many blessings are dependent on us asking for them. Logic then dictates that we should always ask and live our lives in a way that we're worthy of being blessed. Even if you don't believe in divine intervention I think the most important part is that the person being prayed for does. Someone praying for you is an expression of love, feelings of love have a physiological effect on the body, other feelings are strengthened by it as well. Of course I'm also a person who believes that laughter can aid healing and the human mind is strong enough to make it overcome diseases treated with placebos. But that's me.
Have you ever had a smiling face ever put you in a better mood or start you off on the right foot. I have. Smiles and positive body language puts a person at ease. I have read that people with terminal illness's have been helped tremendously by watching comedy videos and that laughter really does work in the healing process. I have to agree with you.
"Or a measurable deal? Long and short we can't change God's will but many blessings are dependent on us asking for them."
We cannot change Gods will... but he blesses us when we ask for it? Doesn't that mean that God was going to bless you regardless of your prayers?
"Logic then dictates that we should always ask and live our lives in a way that we're worthy of being blessed."
Without strong evidence as to which God is the right one how would you logically chose who to pray to?