Belief vs Knowledge; Faith vs Proof
It was Rabbi Irving Greenberg who once wrote that it is important to distinguish between belief and knowledge. What one believes, one cannot know. What one knows, one cannot believe. To believe something means that its perceived veracity depends upon the subjective loyalty of the believer, based upon reason, personal, expeience, or some other compelling catalyst to such faith; to know something depends upon its being provable as fact.
In truth, then, the worst thing that could happen to the faithful person would be the discovery of a means to prove that there is indeed a God, for this would preclude the possiblity of faith, altogether! Rightly, the answer to the question, "Is there a God?" is not yes or now; it is rather, "I believe that there is a God" or "I do not believe that there is a God." Given the lack of proof, in scientific terms, either way, those who do not believe in God may actually be faithful equally to those who do believe in God, only their faith is in the lack of a God.
If faith depends upon the measure of doubt left available to us when knowledge eludes us, then faith in God seems to me to be the far superior option to faith in no God.
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"If faith depends upon the measure of doubt left available to us when knowledge eludes us, then faith in God seems to me to be the far superior option to faith in no God."
FAITH IN "GOD" CANNOT BE PROVED UNLESS "HE/SHE" (GOD) CAN ESTABLISH HIM/HER-SELF THROUGH REASONING. LIMITLESS MAY BE THE "KNOWLEDGE" BUT GOD HIM/HER-SELF HAS TO BE "WITHIN THE LIMIT" IN THE CONTEXT OF BODY BECAUSE "MIND" CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT A BODY.
GOD NEEDS/EXPECTS FAITH AND WANTS HIM/HER TO BE PRAYED FROM THE "CREATURES" WHICH GOES THROUGH ENDLESS LIFE-CYCLES THROUGH LEAVING OFFSPRING BEHIND. BECAUSE IT IS THE CREATION OF HIM/HER.
"...faith in God seems to me to be the far superior option to faith in no God."
And faith in Santa Claus seems the far superior option to faith in no Santa Claus, but that doesn't make it any more likely. Faith is, as you more or less say, belief without evidence.
OK, as a guy that spent many years wishing I could believe in god , the Cost/Benefit argument has to be one of the least inspiring reasons someone might believe in such a thing.
Is god such a tool that any schlep with a calculator in one and and crossed fingers in the other gets saved?
And is the point spread the Rabbi refers to on "faith" in no god(mischaracterizing skepticism anyway) supposed to scare the nonbeliever? We already we live in an inherently meaningless universe alone on a mote of dust with steadily declining viability for the future! What do we care what the odds are things might be different when we die?
This whole argument revolves around the definition of belief itself, which typically fails to acknowledge if one chooses what to believe and then organizes the facts of life, or if one is lead to beliefs based on the facts of life.
The last defense of theism typically resorts to the logical problem of proving something does not exist or highly covoluted discussions about how free-will and determinism are actually coexistant and how morally bankrupt the world would be without the relentless pandering, sycophancy, coercion, bribery, and extortion behind most faith and arguments therefor...
So just get there already if this is the best you got.
Rabbi, I am not sure whether you're aware of the purpose of debate. Let me clue you in: to present arguments which make a case for your side. Aside from your rather strange attempt at claiming that popular belief in some kind of god gives the idea credibility, I've seen no such attempt by you. Most theists at least try to come up with a logical argument to make their pre-existing beliefs seem viable, but you seem to have given up before you've even started!
Instead, you've apparently come to the debate with the arrogant conclusion that you don't need to make any serious attempt at rationalizing belief in god. Why?
Your claims about faith seem a little odd as well, less of an argument and more of an excuse. Why, if you are so willing to believe and base your life off of faith in a god without any evidence, why not believe in anything without evidence? Don't believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Why not? Where is the difference?
I'm almost ashamed the atheist side (which, by the way, atheists generally do not believe there is no god, but instead simply have a lack of belief--shame on the way this debate was set up, as well) didn't have a remotely serious opponent.
Since Unified Force Theory fits the basic definition of God. The question is, when people say they believe in God, what do they mean by God?
God of what?
There is only one God but what is God?
There are many gods of this world.But one true GOD Yahweh!Jehovh GOD!
Countryboy is right. G-d very clearly talks about other Gods, usually Baal. We don't like Ba'al. There are supposed to be other Gods out there who are very powerful supernatural beings--Zeus, Ra, Gozer, etc. But Yahweh, the Jewish G-d, is supposed to be the one who created the universe and sort of maintains it. Different levels. Like, other Gods are players on football teams, but Yahweh is the high commissioner who decides who plays, when and where.
You are both ducking the question. Ok, one true God, Yahweh, and a lot of mythical wantabes. But what is God? When we say we believe in God, what is he.
is a complex question, and me and Cboy are going to give you two very different answers.
G-d is an entity that exists independently of both time and space, able to interact with the universe in whatever way it wishes, and is benevolent towards mankind. Through it's actions, the universe as we know it came to be. It occasionally speaks to human beings.
Is God material or non-material (spirit/ energy )?
Though it could create material for itself if it wanted to, it is wholly different than anything we can comprehend.
As I see it the universe is a pool of energy with everything in it sending out it's own interconnecting ripples of energy.
And G-d is an entity that has the ability to control that pool with it's crazy telekenetic mind.
I agree with you.
Have you ever considered that the delusion of Revelations is referring to the homosexual movement? Have you ever considered that we are in the end times?
I love God. Its obvious you do too. Peace to you. My story at WWW.HOPE7.HIGHPOWERSITES.COM
Everything in life is progressing just as it should. I have peace and trust in God, no matter. The bottom line question is not do you believe there is a God, God says all men/woman know it whether they wish to acknowledge is it another matter, but the real question is DO YOU LOVE HIM? I think you do!
I can understand that you have faith in God and that is great, I think that faith helps people deal with situations and gives them strength.
But, I do not understand how you can say that someone loves God when they don't even believe that they exist. If you believe that God doesn't exist, how can you love him? Surely love is about having faith in someone and believing in them as (in general terms) people yet if you apply this definition to God, you need to have faith in him. Otherwise you are loving something that you believe to not exist which seems completley unreasonable.
He's definitly not the God of the bible . I have trouble believing that our earth just happened, along with all the rest of humanity. What I don't understand is how God created the human race and then destroyed the entire human race. Then allowed it to flourish again, and now all of us who don't accept Jesus into our hearts will go to hell. Wait a minute isn't he all knowing, didn't he know what was going to happen when he originally created me. He loves me so much he sent his son to die on the cross for me so my sins could be forgiven but... he made me this way and he knew it was going to turn out this way before I was born. If I don't believe in him he knows my heart and he'll judge me accordingly.
This was beautifully written and phrased up until his final conclusion. Almost had my vote .
You wrote: "Given the lack of proof, in scientific terms, either way, those who do not believe in God may actually be faithful equally to those who do believe in God, only their faith is in the lack of a God."
Although I agree with what you're saying, why do we continue to run to science for validation of our beliefs? There are things that science cannot do. Scientific knowledge has proven to be false in many instances... by science itself. Science is limited to areas of naturalism-- it CAN'T prove or disprove the SUPERnatural. I say, let's run to the principles of jurisprudence, where probability is honored. I believe BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that God exists.
The major question is why is this even a question? It because if there is a God, faith must have a purpose that nothing else could accomplish--and indeed it does. Faith is the ultimate value upon which all relationships prosper or fail. I have faith in my bank that they can be trusted with my money ; and they trust me with a check book. Our relationship continues on the basis of that mutual trust. That trust is it own reward. If we want God's benefits, it's only consistent with all other things in life that he should ask us to accept him by faith. He has offered himself as the reward of the one who will seek to know him by faith. It's a fair deal, and a very good one. No one is forced in. And he isn't trying to fill heaven by coercion. It's for the willing.
Lately, the thing which has me awestruck is God's love of paradox (apparent contradictions that seem impossible, yet with a change of viewpoint, they resolve). The resurrection accounts (Mt. 28, Mk. 16, Lk. 24, Jn. 20,21, Acts 1:1-12, and 1 Cor. 15:3-8 appear contradictory when merely compared side-by-side, but when the events described by each of the five writers are broken into pieces they can all be brought together to form one complete story, without contradiction. Who but God could conceive such a grand puzzle? Find out more at www.easteranswer.com
For FAITH to exist GOD must exist...The human heart, as we all know, is despirately wicked & totally without a means of control, outside of fear from law & retribution from the law...Mankind would not make up an outside influence to dominate the human mind..FAITH brought to fruition ,yields un-human capabillities & anyone who is truthfull in the matter can see by this evidence, (that man would not go against himself to his own demise or subjection),in essence self-representation & self-preservation..True "faith" comes only from GOD by way of a change in a man's heart because of an outside force acting on that heart, heart being a person's inner makeup that has to manifest outwardly,that change..FAITH in GOD is the very evidence that GOD exists..IT goes against ALL human nature & behavior to submit to a higher authority..GOD is love,not a man-made mind control option, LOVE, being HIS character shown to mankind in CHRIST's manifestation..IT is this IMAGE from which mankind originally fell ..WE were created in GOD's IMAGE..NOT physically but in HIS CHARACTER image..Since the fall we must be restored to that IMAGE as this is neccessary for GOD to remain GOD..SATAN is trying his best to defeat GOD in this purpose in-order to discredit GOD in HIS eternal realm..YOU are either helping SATAN or helping GOD in this eternal struggle...Though GOD does not need your help, HE has appointed a purpose & portion for those who receive HIM & want to accept HIS IMAGE, "LOVE"..The anti-christ will force anyone else to worship his image,"SELF" in that day of decission..There will be NO escape from CHOICE that day & ALL fates will be sealed for eternity...IT is purposed that EVERY knee shall bow & EVERY tongue confess that CHRIST is LORD over ALL, through eternity..After all he created it all...
Faith IS truly required to believe (i.e. KNOW in one's heart) that God exists. Yet, Faith in faith alone gives little comfort that Faith will one Day be proven to be fact. Faith THAT God exists is based on the presuppositions that God can exist, and that His existence is beneficial to me.
However, by the same token Faith is required to believe that God does NOT exist! The Faith that God does NOT exist is based on the presuppositions that the Universe can exist even if God does not, and that the lack of God is in some way or ways beneficial to me.
Though I will probably add another comment later, I will close this one with an investment-return analysis!
Belief: God exists! Investment: This Life with all its problems & blessings...on average 100 years or less. Return: Eternity of significant existence minus problems plus additional favor for believers.
Belief: God does not exist! Investment: Time & Effort getting to the top of your field, and the staggering task of proving your own omniscience of all things in order to be able to prove that God does not exist! Return: A Life of pleasures that lasts for 100 years or less, and the possibility of being immortalized in the hearts of those who adore you, even though YOU yourself cease to exist.
Cost-Benefits Analysis shows heavier value on the side of Belief in God and His certain existence! (Hebrews 11:1, KJV) It's not even close! :)
Faith cost nothing it is the GIFT of GOD,you do nothing but get out of it's way & allow yourself to be used for a purpose..You are salvaged from a life of eternal torment but you live to a life of eternal reward.YOU are salvaged for the purpose of becomming GOD like in character & IMAGE, RESTORED to how GOD made man originally...YOU will do as HE would do ..REPRESENTATION is your purpose in eternity & in the here & now..